RJJ or JCC higher ATG

[Baby Bull]

Who was the greater boxer? Both have similarities and differences. Jones dominated the middle divisions for a decade with typically a defensive low risk approach wheras Chavez dominated the lower divisons with a completly offensive style, damaging a opponent each rounds with his relentless pressure and body punching. Resume wise i would give Roy the edge but, to my knowladge, Chavez never ducked anyone where there are clearly fighters Roy didn't face.

[DINAMITA]

For me it's Jones, both pound-for-pound and in terms of ability. Not a huge gap between them, but Jones has the edge IMO.

[TBooze]

Chavez was a great, RJJ may of been a great......

[brownpimp88]

Chavez was a great, RJJ may of been a great......
Really who did he beat again that was so much better than Roy's opposition. I pick James Toney as a better win than anything chavez ever did.

[MrMarvel]

Rocky Lockridge, Juan Laporte, Edwin Rosario, Jose Luis Rameriz, Meldrick Taylor, Hector Camacho.... It's not just the names, but also the number of them. When was Roy in an in-the-trenches war with punches thrown in bunches wearing his opponents down, even ruining them. Look at the faces of Rosario, Taylor, and Camacho after their fights with Chavez. BRUTAL. When was Chavez knocked out cold TWICE? He was stopped once by the ref late in his career in trouble against the ropes against a terrific fighter. Look at who zapped Roy.

Roy was an all-time great. To my mind, this is undisputable. But Chavez was greater. When Roy lost even a bit on his reflexes, he became rather ordinary. Chavez is on that rare level very few fighters ever achieve.

[DINAMITA]

Rocky Lockridge, Juan Laporte, Edwin Rosario, Jose Luis Rameriz, Meldrick Taylor, Hector Camacho.... It's not just the names, but also the number of them.

Really? I don't think that's a particularly long list of great names or great wins. You could easily write a similar list for Jones:

Bernard Hopkins, James Toney, Antonio Tarver, Virgil Hill, Mike McCallum, Montell Griffin, John Ruiz.


Resume is neither man's strongest point IMO.


When was Roy in an in-the-trenches war with punches thrown in bunches wearing his opponents down, even ruining them.

He was too good to get dragged into the trenches, that's the truth. From 1993-2003 (with an absolute peak IMO of 94-97 or 98), Jones was Superman, his opponents could hardly touch him never mind go to war with him. The one time he did find himself in a difficult fight (Griffin I), he managed to overcome a tricky, talented and determined opponent and turn the tide, before he was DQ'd. Jones fought a succession of solid champions and good contenders 93-03 with the odd filler thrown in (nowhere near as bad as Chavez's fillers though), and was in a different league to them all. It should not be detrimental to him that he was so good.

Look at the faces of Rosario, Taylor, and Camacho after their fights with Chavez. BRUTAL.

Look at the faces of Griffin, Hill, Harding, Malinga, Woods, after they were all stopped by Jones. Look at the faces of Toney, McCallum and Ruiz after they were dazzled and almost shut out. They knew they had been in the ring with Superman. AWESOME.

When was Chavez knocked out cold TWICE? He was stopped once by the ref late in his career in trouble against the ropes against a terrific fighter. Look at who zapped Roy.

Yes, Roy was KO'd twice when he was shot. I suppose it's up to you how much importance you place on these defeats.

I could say:

When was Roy ever beaten by guys the standard of GROVER WILEY and WILLY WISE? Roy only lost to world-level boxers, never journeymen.


However, I don't care that JCC lost to them when he was shot, same as I don't care about Roy's losses when he was shot, or anyone's losses when they are shot.

This does not affect how good they were at their peak or diminish their career achievements in any way IMO.

Roy was an all-time great. To my mind, this is undisputable.

Yes.

But Chavez was greater.

Perhaps. I don't think so myself, but it's very close between the two, so I can see both sides.

When Roy lost even a bit on his reflexes, he became rather ordinary.

When Chavez started to drift past his prime, he also looked pretty ordinary. The JCC who fought Randall did not look like a great fighter to me. It's easy to say anyone past their prime looks ordinary. Jones was an incredible fighter for a decade. From 93-03 he was supreme. That's arguably a longer prime than Chavez, as his fans often state he was clearly past-prime by the Whitaker fight (some also say by the Taylor fight, which would've meant a rather short prime).

Chavez is on that rare level very few fighters ever achieve.

Top 30-35 IMO. Same tier as guys like Jones and Hearns.

[robert ungurean]

This one is easy for me. Chavez
Hill & McCallum were over the hill. Toney had way too much weight to lose & wasnt anywhere near himself in that fight. Tarver,Griffin & Ruiz are average fighter's in my book.

[PunchOut]

JC Chavez Easily

he was indestructible for 10 years ... 10 years fuckers

he won his first Belt back in 1984 and lost his first fight 10 years later ...

The most impressive, dominant, and amazing prime fighter of all time to me

[ricardinho]

JC Chavez Easily

he was indestructible for 10 years ... 10 years fuckers

he won his first Belt back in 1984 and lost his first fight 10 years later ...

The most impressive, dominant, and amazing prime fighter of all time to me


Ditto for me....

[brownpimp88]

This one is easy for me. Chavez
Hill & McCallum were over the hill. Toney had way too much weight to lose & wasnt anywhere near himself in that fight. Tarver,Griffin & Ruiz are average fighter's in my book.
Meh those are just excuses, i can easily say camacho was older too and meldrick was giving chavez a boxing lesson the whole fight prior to a bullshit stoppage.

[PunchOut]

Meh those are just excuses, i can easily say camacho was older too and meldrick was giving chavez a boxing lesson the whole fight prior to a bullshit stoppage.

1. Chavez was older than Camacho, or at least, has the same age

2. Stop with the "boxing lesson" that taylor "give" to JCC ... the guy was almost getting murdered in the ring and still the people say he was giving " a boxing lesson" .... pls

[brownpimp88]

1. Chavez was older than Camacho, or at least, has the same age

2. Stop with the "boxing lesson" that taylor "give" to JCC ... the guy was almost getting murdered in the ring and still the people say he was giving " a boxing lesson" .... pls
Haha, if that ref didnt stop the fight when there was two seconds left, chavez would have lost, taylor easily won like 8-9 rounds in that fight.

You want to make up excuses for roy beating toney, camacho was not the same fighter in 1992 that he was in the mid 80's. On top of that Roy has so much more skill than Chavez anyways. Chavez has never beaten an ATG fighter. At least Roy fought and beat toney, and yeah james toney is better than rosario, ramirez and taylor, thats not even a comparison.

[good right hand]

very good question, i say roy jones jr by the dominance of his wins,

virtually every single win that he made (of course the 1st griffen fight was very even fight untill the foul), he won decisively and these where on par with the laporte, rosario, lockridge, lopez, haugen, comacho upper league.

roy couldent fight in the trenches like the great chavez and chavez could not box a guys ears off and not get touched like a prime roy jones.

[Senya13]

Camacho's prime ended in 1986. He wasn't the same after the Rosario fight.

[Minotauro]

Chavez

[PowerPuncher]

Jones by far, if you can't see that by watching them you need glasses.

[lefthook31]

Jones in my opinion accomplished the bigger feat in winning titles at a pure weight disadvantage, whereas Chavez always fought around his true weight. Would be like Chavez moving up to middleweight and winning titles.

[DINAMITA]

Jones by far, if you can't see that by watching them you need glasses.

As you can see from the previous page, I also believe the answer is Jones.

However, I would take issue with your reasoning here. Merely watching someone can never be the be all and end all.

Based purely on video evidence if you watch Herol Graham or Sumbu Kalambay, you very well may think they are greater boxers than Emile Griffith or Carlos Monzon, and of course we all know they are not.

There is more to consider than that.

[GPater11093]

Haha, if that ref didnt stop the fight when there was two seconds left, chavez would have lost, taylor easily won like 8-9 rounds in that fight.




or Meldrick Tatlor could have been seriously injured and maybe not around today

[la-califa]

Roy may have been a better technician, & was way faster. But you have to consider the whole package. Chavez was never even floored until he fought Randall. (around 100 fights). Jones was knocked out cold, while still pretty much in his prime. Which like Lewis is a hard handicap to overcome in any comparison. or ATG debate.

[My2Sense]

Yes, Roy was KO'd twice when he was shot.

No, he was KO'd twice when he was declining but not yet shot. He was still the top P4P fighter in the world the first time he was KO'd. He was at no worse a stage in his career as Chavez when he lost to Whitaker and Randall.

[PunchOut]

Chavez Easy ...

RJJ is way overated by the americans

[DINAMITA]

No, he was KO'd twice when he was declining but not yet shot. He was still the top P4P fighter in the world the first time he was KO'd. He was at no worse a stage in his career as Chavez when he lost to Whitaker and Randall.

Look at Jones's performances in '02 and '03. Look at his performances from the first Tarver fight onwards. It was a completely different man. I was always sceptical about hearing that someone could age overnight, till I actually saw it. It may have been the extreme bulk-up and burn-off of weight, it may simply have been an unquantifiable rapid natural decline in physical ability, but the Jones who fought Tarver the first time was NOT the same guy as a year earlier. I have his career set, and the difference was incredible. Sorry, but Roy was shot in '04, as shot as shot can be. Could Tarver have sparked a merely past-prime Roy? Could Johnson have dominated him? Absolutely no way. They were fighting a corpse. His decline was bizarre - rapid, inexplicable and (as we saw v Calzaghe) irreversible.

[DINAMITA]

Roy may have been a better technician, & was way faster. But you have to consider the whole package. Chavez was never even floored until he fought Randall. (around 100 fights). Jones was knocked out cold, while still pretty much in his prime. Which like Lewis is a hard handicap to overcome in any comparison. or ATG debate.

Yes, Roy was p4p#1 when he fought Tarver first time, yes before that fight he was viewed as still being in his prime, but if you disregard his placing in the fictional rankings of a magazine and disregard the numerical fact of his age and actually watch his fights, it is achingly obvious that he was NOT close to prime when he was stopped twice. The evidence is there in the fights.

Some fighters decline very gradually (like Duran, who was still capable of going to war with larger men 15-20 years after he first won a world title), but there are also fighters whose decline is very sharp and without warning, like Jones.

[TBooze]

Really who did he beat again that was so much better than Roy's opposition. I pick James Toney as a better win than anything chavez ever did.


With one fight, Chavez quite frankly, usurped anything Jones did. The first Taylor fight turned a fringe all-time top ten Mexican fighter into the greatest Mexican fighter ever and the number one ranked fighter in the world at the time.

Taylor was very much the real deal, and many of us allegedly in the know put good money on Meldrick (which explains the real reason Steele was booed) .

Jones fights never had the drama and atmosphere of a Chavez bout; I never saw RJJ sell out a 127,000 stadium; I never saw Jones turn around fights he was losing; I never saw Jones fight everyone he could in his prime.....

RJJ was a fantastic athlete, a brilliant boxer, but to be great you need so much more, Chavez had these other facets, Jones did to a point, but not at the level of Julio Cesar Chavez.

[lefthook31]

With one fight, Chavez quite frankly, usurped anything Jones did. The first Taylor fight turned a fringe all-time top ten Mexican fighter into the greatest Mexican fighter ever and the number one ranked fighter in the world at the time.

Taylor was very much the real deal, and many of us allegedly in the know put good money on Meldrick (which explains the real reason Steele was booed) .

Jones fights never had the drama and atmosphere of a Chavez bout; I never saw RJJ sell out a 127,000 stadium; I never saw Jones turn around fights he was losing; I never saw Jones fight everyone he could in his prime.....

RJJ was a fantastic athlete, a brilliant boxer, but to be great you need so much more, Chavez had these other facets, Jones did to a point, but not at the level of Julio Cesar Chavez.

Chavez was getting shalacked by Taylor, hardly a dominating win. If Jones was Mexican you dont think he could fill Azteca at the prime of his career? Cmon now sir.

[TBooze]

Chavez was getting shalacked by Taylor, hardly a dominating win. If Jones was Mexican you dont think he could fill Azteca at the prime of his career? Cmon now sir.

Jones lacked the ability to communicate with the fans that Chavez did. If he was Mexican I think he would of been highly respected as a brilliant boxer, but would of been too aloof from the Mexican fans, for there to be genuine affection, ala Chavez.

It is a bit of a myth that Chavez was getting a shellacking from Taylor. The fight was close, Taylor was badly injured going into the final round, and at best was going to win a split decision....

As for the lack of domination, that is what sells Chavez greatness. JCC was arguably three years and 10lbs of his peak form, yet he still beat one of the finest fighters out there.

Chavez is similar to Ali, in that early on they were seemingly unbeatable, but when they had slipped they still could find ways to win fights, when everything was not going their way, that is one of things RJJ lacks.

[lefthook31]

Jones lacked the ability to communicate with the fans that Chavez did. If he was Mexican I think he would of been highly respected as a brilliant boxer, but would of been too aloof from the Mexican fans, for there to be genuine affection, ala Chavez.

It is a bit of a myth that Chavez was getting a shellacking from Taylor. The fight was close, Taylor was badly injured going into the final round, and at best was going to win a split decision....

As for the lack of domination, that is what sells Chavez greatness. JCC was arguably three years and 10lbs of his peak form, yet he still beat one of the finest fighters out there.

Chavez is similar to Ali, in that early on they were seemingly unbeatable, but when they had slipped they still could find ways to win fights, when everything was not going their way, that is one of things RJJ lacks.

Ok what about the Whitaker fight? And how about the two Randall fights, second one Randall was clearly robbed? Chavez like so many forward fighters was susceptible to be outboxed. His win over Hector Camacho, stands as one of his best performances in my opinion, against a pretty slick guy.

[TBooze]

Ok what about the Whitaker fight? And how about the two Randall fights, second one Randall was clearly robbed? Chavez like so many forward fighters was susceptible to be outboxed. His win over Hector Camacho, stands as one of his best performances in my opinion, against a pretty slick guy.


Chavez was coming to the end of his journey by 93/94, the Whitaker fight was hardly a surprise, and Randall was a classy fighter at his best, and indeed caused Chavez all sorts of problems.

Kudos to Camacho, who for perhaps the only time in his career lived up to his nickname and took his beating like a (Macho) Man.

[la-califa]

Ok what about the Whitaker fight? And how about the two Randall fights, second one Randall was clearly robbed? Chavez like so many forward fighters was susceptible to be outboxed. His win over Hector Camacho, stands as one of his best performances in my opinion, against a pretty slick guy.
You mean the THREE Randall fights, & two Taylor fights??? Both fighters were given the opportunity to redeem themselves & were defeated yet again.

[PowerPuncher]

As you can see from the previous page, I also believe the answer is Jones.

However, I would take issue with your reasoning here. Merely watching someone can never be the be all and end all.

Based purely on video evidence if you watch Herol Graham or Sumbu Kalambay, you very well may think they are greater boxers than Emile Griffith or Carlos Monzon, and of course we all know they are not.

There is more to consider than that.

For the most part you can tell from viewing performances/skills/abilities. People on this forum largely ignore visual evidence for the main part. Also all flair and no substance doesn't get the job done either. Obviously the level of competition is important too but Jones was competing at a very high level, just as high as Chavez with his best opponent. I see you've argued this point already

Actually I don't think Kalambay and Graham were far behind Monzon and Griffith in ability terms and they obviously did many things better. Both excellent boxers, avoided like the plague and never truly gave their chance to shine. Facing prodigies like McCallum and Nunn didn't help their cause

[PowerPuncher]

Jones was knocked out cold, while still pretty much in his prime.

If thats true Chavez was getting schooled near his prime by Willy Wise :shock:

[lefthook31]

You mean the THREE Randall fights, & two Taylor fights??? Both fighters were given the opportunity to redeem themselves & were defeated yet again.
You are right, but certainly the second Taylor fight was an exhibition type fight as Taylor had nothing left. Funny I dont even remember the third Randall fight. I do remember exactly where I was watching the first fight when Chavez went down, what a shocker. Funny if Randall hadnt dropped Chavez he would have lost the fight. Don King had those judges in his pocket.

[PowerPuncher]

You mean the THREE Randall fights, & two Taylor fights??? Both fighters were given the opportunity to redeem themselves & were defeated yet again.

Should we anayse the 3 Randall fights? Fight 1 Randall beats him, Fight 2 Randall is on his way to victory until Chavez QUITS and gets a gift TD, Fight 3 both are 80yos but Chavez wins that 1, funny he didnt want a rubber match back in '94 isn't it?

[lefthook31]

Should we anayse the 3 Randall fights? Fight 1 Randall beats him, Fight 2 Randall is on his way to victory until Chavez QUITS and gets a gift TD, Fight 3 both are 80yos but Chavez wins that 1, funny he didnt want a rubber match back in '94 isn't it?
Yes now its coming back to me. This is when the ugly unsportsman Chavez surfaced. He couldnt take losing. He basically made the decision to stop the second fight which shouldnt have been. The ref or doctor usually makes that decision, but they asked him if he wanted to continue and he said no. The cut wasnt that bad. First or second round Randall landed another beautiful right that almost dropped Chavez again. I dont remember ever seeing a guy reel that far backwards and maintain his balance.

Its at the 5:20 minute mark
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[My2Sense]

Should we anayse the 3 Randall fights? Fight 1 Randall beats him, Fight 2 Randall is on his way to victory until Chavez QUITS and gets a gift TD, Fight 3 both are 80yos but Chavez wins that 1, funny he didnt want a rubber match back in '94 isn't it?

That isn't nearly as embarrassing as Roy's rivalries with Tarver and Glen Johnson.

[My2Sense]

Look at Jones's performances in '02 and '03. Look at his performances from the first Tarver fight onwards. It was a completely different man. I was always sceptical about hearing that someone could age overnight, till I actually saw it. It may have been the extreme bulk-up and burn-off of weight, it may simply have been an unquantifiable rapid natural decline in physical ability, but the Jones who fought Tarver the first time was NOT the same guy as a year earlier. I have his career set, and the difference was incredible. Sorry, but Roy was shot in '04, as shot as shot can be. Could Tarver have sparked a merely past-prime Roy? Could Johnson have dominated him? Absolutely no way. They were fighting a corpse. His decline was bizarre - rapid, inexplicable and (as we saw v Calzaghe) irreversible.

You're judging Roy's decline based partly on whether he won or lost rather than how faded he actually was, which in fact is two separate issues. Look at Chavez circa the Whitaker/Randall fights, and compare that to a couple years earlier, and you'll see roughly the same difference. You're assuming Roy was more faded because he got knocked out and Chavez didn't, but the fact of the matter is Chavez didn't get KO'd at this stage because he was a much tougher fighter to begin with, and likely the better one as well.