Comparing Tyson and Lewis' competition

[lefthook31]

:rasta Most people these days see Tyson for the fighter he was once he was released from prision. His timing never came back and with exception to a brief stint with Tommy Brooks, he never had the proper guidance to bring him back to fighting form. People forgot the terror he was in the 80's mowing down fighter after fighter. Boxers, sluggers, didnt matter, Tyson tore through all of them. He faced former greats like Mike Spinks and Larry Holmes and destroyed them quite easily. Say what you will about Holmes, but he went on to have some pretty decent fights, and was never blown out like he was against Tyson.
The importance of Kevin Rooney in his career can only be compared to the importance of Emanuel Steward in Lennox Lewis' career. The proof is in their records and cosistency under each trainer. Tyson was undefeated and disciplined and fought a style that Rooney developed specifically for Tyson complimenting the Cus D'amto style. Steward also developed a style for Lewis which took away some of his vulnerabilities, he showed in fight with guys like Bruno and Mcall.
Its hard for me to imagine how some people consider Lewis the more accomplished fighter? Sure his reign was longer, but the amount of fights are about equal and the competition is really not comparable. With exception to Evander Holyfield, the post prision Tyson had his way just as easily with the fighters Lewis cemented his legacy with. Throw out David Tua, and its hard to imagine the shell of Tyson in the mid 90's having any problems with anyone Lewis faced.
Tyson was the youngest heavyweight champion and the last to unify it separately, topping it off with a blowout of the so called linear champion. The fighters are much physically bigger now, but they are technically far inferior to the group of the 80's.

[van the man]

:rasta Most people these days see Tyson for the fighter he was once he was released from prision. His timing never came back and with exception to a brief stint with Tommy Brooks, he never had the proper guidance to bring him back to fighting form. People forgot the terror he was in the 80's mowing down fighter after fighter. Boxers, sluggers, didnt matter, Tyson tore through all of them. He faced former greats like Mike Spinks and Larry Holmes and destroyed them quite easily. Say what you will about Holmes, but he went on to have some pretty decent fights, and was never blown out like he was against Tyson.
The importance of Kevin Rooney in his career can only be compared to the importance of Emanuel Steward in Lennox Lewis' career. The proof is in their records and cosistency under each trainer. Tyson was undefeated and disciplined and fought a style that Rooney developed specifically for Tyson complimenting the Cus D'amto style. Steward also developed a style for Lewis which took away some of his vulnerabilities, he showed in fight with guys like Bruno and Mcall.
Its hard for me to imagine how some people consider Lewis the more accomplished fighter? Sure his reign was longer, but the amount of fights are about equal and the competition is really not comparable. With exception to Evander Holyfield, the post prision Tyson had his way just as easily with the fighters Lewis cemented his legacy with. Throw out David Tua, and its hard to imagine the shell of Tyson in the mid 90's having any problems with anyone Lewis faced.
Tyson was the youngest heavyweight champion and the last to unify it separately, topping it off with a blowout of the so called linear champion. The fighters are much physically bigger now, but they are technically far inferior to the group of the 80's.

spot on m8:good in my opinion tyson was on of a kind in his prime, and on of the most exiting boxers i have ever seen. lewis had his greatness and he was a great champ, but he never went to the same level as mike.

[Imperial1]

spot on m8:good in my opinion tyson was on of a kind in his prime, and on of the most exiting boxers i have ever seen. lewis had his greatness and he was a great champ, but he never went to the same level as mike.


Is this a joke ???


Lewis fought anyone worth mentioniong in the HW division w/the exception of Riddick Bowe ..

With Tyson The minute he fought a fighter that could weather his storm he had trouble with !Lewis dominated pretty much everyone put in fron of him and fought the better comp !Tyson may have been a wrecking machine but if he had fought Holyfeild before Douglas that train would have came to hault allot sooner !

[GazOC]

With Tyson The minute he fought a fighter that could weather his storm he had trouble with !

:good He was the definition of an 'on top fighter'...everytime he got asked decent questions by an opponent, he got KO'd.

[Imperial1]

:good He was the definition of an 'on top fighter'...everytime he got asked decent questions by an opponent, he got KO'd.


:lol: You got that right !!

[Zakman]

Good point. Lewis's opposition is constantly overrated. The only great fighters he ever faced, Holyfield and Tyson himself, were years past their primes when Lewis faced them. And, for the most part, he didn't completely blow out his opponents the way Tyson did.

[GazOC]

Good point. Lewis's opposition is constantly overrated. The only great fighters he ever faced, Holyfield and Tyson himself, were years past their primes when Lewis faced them. And, for the most part, he didn't completely blow out his opponents the way Tyson did.

Thats a styles thing though....

[Imperial1]

Good point. Lewis's opposition is constantly overrated. The only great fighters he ever faced, Holyfield and Tyson himself, were years past their primes when Lewis faced them. And, for the most part, he didn't completely blow out his opponents the way Tyson did.

Your right he never blew out the likes of Marvis Fraiser ,Buster Mathis Jr .,The almight Bruce Seldon ,Way past his prime Larry Holmes ..Your right LL only fought 2 good fighters in Tyson and Holy never did he take on signifigant challenges like Tyson did as some of the opponents listed above ..:patsch

[brooklyn1550]

You make some good points, but I think Lennox Lewis is the greater fighter

[Musashi]

Lennox Lewis's most significant wins -
TKO2 Donovan Ruddock, UD12 Tony Tucker, TKO7 Frank Bruno, TKO6 Tommy Morrison, MD12 Ray Mercer, TKO5 Oliver McCall, DQ5 Henry Akinwande, KO1 Andrew Golota, TKO5 Shannon Briggs, D12 and UD12 Evander Holyfield, KO2 Michael Grant, UD12 David Tua, KO4 Hasim Rahman, KO8 Mike Tyson, TKO6 Vitali Klitschko

I think that compares pretty favorably to Mike's resume.

[LennoxGOAT]

Does anyone actually look at Tyson's wins before they make these threads? Who is the biggest win? A retired Holmes? Razor? A semi retired light heavyweight?

And Evander? Please...better than Mike's but his resume is not better than Lewis if you actually look at Holy's losses...

[LennoxGOAT]

Good point. Lewis's opposition is constantly overrated. The only great fighters he ever faced, Holyfield and Tyson himself, were years past their primes when Lewis faced them. And, for the most part, he didn't completely blow out his opponents the way Tyson did.


Usual Zakman rhetoric and agenda. I am sorry, but Holy got owned by Lennox, Bowe, and split with Moorer. Deal with it...

[brooklyn1550]

Let's compare them...

MIKE TYSON
50 WINS, 6 LOSSES, 44 KNOCKOUTS

Larry Holmes
Michael Spinks
Razor Ruddock (2)
Pinklon Thomas
Tony Tucker
Trevor Berbick
Frank Bruno (2)
Tony Tubbs
Bonecrusher Smith
Tyrell Biggs
Carl Williams
Francois Botha
Brian Nielsen
Buster Mathis, Jr.
Bruce Seldon
Quick Tillis
Marvis Frazier
Mitch GreenWBC Heavyweight Champion
WBA Heavyweight Champion
IBF Heavyweight Champion
10 Total Title Defenses
Champion from 1986-1990, 1996
Defeated 9 World Champions
Defeated 2* Hall of Famers (Holmes in future)


LENNOX LEWIS
41 WINS, 2 LOSSES, 32 KNOCKOUTS

Evander Holyfield
Mike Tyson
Vitali Klitschko
David Tua
Tommy Morrison
Ray Mercer
Oliver McCall
Razor Ruddock
Hasim Rahman
Shannon Briggs
Andrew Golota
Henry Akinwande
Tony Tucker
Michael Grant
Francois Botha
Zeljko Mavrovic
Gary Mason
Ossie Ocasio
Mike WeaverWBC Heavyweight Champion
WBA Heavyweight Champion
WBO Heavyweight Champion
IBF Heavyweight Champion
12 Total Title Defenses
Champion from 1993-1994, 1997-2001, 2001-2004
Defeated 12 World Champions
Defeated 2* Hall of Famers (Tyson and Holyfield in future)


Going by that, I would say that Lennox Lewis has the better resume. Both have defeated 2 hall of famers - and for each man, the hall of famers they defeated were past their primes. Additionally, Lewis beat more champions and defeated every man he stepped in the ring with. He has won all 4 alphabet soup belts and his total years as a champion exceeds Tyson's. Lewis nor Tyson could come back to win a fight after being knocked down to the canvass, but with Tyson, he never avenged a defeat. When Lewis was knocked down (and out), he came back on both occasions to earn TKO wins (I know he didn't really TKO McCall, but he still beat him). Mike was great - there is NO denying that, but everything analyzed and taken into consideration, Lewis should go down as the greater fighter.

[2smart4u]

:patsch LL and by a wide margin ! Only ALI could argue a better one !:deal

[Blacc Jesus]

It surpasses Mikes...
Agreed.

[Musashi]

jdp000109 - You're right, it does surpass Mike's. But, the Tyson myth is so prevalent in some people's minds, that no evidence will convince them.

Was Tyson great? I think so. Was he also a well-hyped, carefully matched front runner? Oh, yeah.

Lennox, for all his flaws, fought almost all of the best of his era. And he beat the only man with a comparable resume (Holy).

[TheGreat]

:good He was the definition of an 'on top fighter'...everytime he got asked decent questions by an opponent, he got KO'd.

I am so sick of hearing this typical hater shit from from key board warriors who never boxed a day in thier life saying all you have to do is fight back and Tyson will fold, Tyson was challenged many times in his youth by Tillis, Tucker, Bruno( first fight) Rudduck and Botha post prison and he won those fights.

[TheGreat]

Let's compare them...

MIKE TYSON
50 WINS, 6 LOSSES, 44 KNOCKOUTS

Larry Holmes
Michael Spinks
Razor Ruddock (2)
Pinklon Thomas
Tony Tucker
Trevor Berbick
Frank Bruno (2)
Tony Tubbs
Bonecrusher Smith
Tyrell Biggs
Carl Williams
Francois Botha
Brian Nielsen
Buster Mathis, Jr.
Bruce Seldon
Quick Tillis
Marvis Frazier
Mitch GreenWBC Heavyweight Champion
WBA Heavyweight Champion
IBF Heavyweight Champion
10 Total Title Defenses
Champion from 1986-1990, 1996
Defeated 9 World Champions
Defeated 2* Hall of Famers (Holmes in future)


LENNOX LEWIS
41 WINS, 2 LOSSES, 32 KNOCKOUTS

Evander Holyfield
Mike Tyson
Vitali Klitschko
David Tua
Tommy Morrison
Ray Mercer
Oliver McCall
Razor Ruddock
Hasim Rahman
Shannon Briggs
Andrew Golota
Henry Akinwande
Tony Tucker
Michael Grant
Francois Botha
Zeljko Mavrovic
Gary Mason
Ossie Ocasio
Mike WeaverWBC Heavyweight Champion
WBA Heavyweight Champion
WBO Heavyweight Champion
IBF Heavyweight Champion
12 Total Title Defenses
Champion from 1993-1994, 1997-2001, 2001-2004
Defeated 12 World Champions
Defeated 2* Hall of Famers (Tyson and Holyfield in future)


Going by that, I would say that Lennox Lewis has the better resume. Both have defeated 2 hall of famers - and for each man, the hall of famers they defeated were past their primes. Additionally, Lewis beat more champions and defeated every man he stepped in the ring with. He has won all 4 alphabet soup belts and his total years as a champion exceeds Tyson's. Lewis nor Tyson could come back to win a fight after being knocked down to the canvass, but with Tyson, he never avenged a defeat. When Lewis was knocked down (and out), he came back on both occasions to earn TKO wins (I know he didn't really TKO McCall, but he still beat him). Mike was great - there is NO denying that, but everything analyzed and taken into consideration, Lewis should go down as the greater fighter.

Very Fair post, I agree.

[TheGreat]

jdp000109 - You're right, it does surpass Mike's. But, the Tyson myth is so prevalent in some people's minds, that no evidence will convince them.

Was Tyson great? I think so. Was he also a well-hyped, carefully matched front runner? Oh, yeah.

Lennox, for all his flaws, fought almost all of the best of his era. And he beat the only man with a comparable resume (Holy).

:patsch carefully matched protected fighters don't become ATGs who clear out the HW division genius.

[PATSYS]

:rasta Throw out David Tua, and its hard to imagine the shell of Tyson in the mid 90's having any problems with anyone Lewis faced.


Yeah he wouldn't have any problems losing to Evander Holyfield. :roll:

[kg0208]

Yeah he wouldn't have any problems losing to Evander Holyfield. :roll:

Pac KO 1

[TheGreat]

:patsch LL and by a wide margin ! Only ALI could argue a better one !:deal

Pure BS you are stating this to make Vitaly look better, overall I would say LL's resume is slightly better but not better by a wide margin and Joe Louis has way better resume than both IMO.

[2smart4u]

Pure BS you are stating this to make Vitaly look better, overall I would say LL's resume is slightly better but not better by a wide margin and Joe Louis has way better resume than both IMO.:lol: :patsch

[brooklyn1550]

I would definitely say Joe Louis has the better resume than Lennox Lewis....should I compare the two?

[PATSYS]

I would definitely say Joe Louis has the better resume than Lennox Lewis....should I compare the two? Yes pls.

[PATSYS]

Let's compare them...

MIKE TYSON
50 WINS, 6 LOSSES, 44 KNOCKOUTS

Larry Holmes
Michael Spinks
Razor Ruddock (2)
Pinklon Thomas
Tony Tucker
Trevor Berbick
Frank Bruno (2)
Tony Tubbs
Bonecrusher Smith
Tyrell Biggs
Carl Williams
Francois Botha
Brian Nielsen
Buster Mathis, Jr.
Bruce Seldon
Quick Tillis
Marvis Frazier
Mitch GreenWBC Heavyweight Champion
WBA Heavyweight Champion
IBF Heavyweight Champion
10 Total Title Defenses
Champion from 1986-1990, 1996
Defeated 9 World Champions
Defeated 2* Hall of Famers (Holmes in future)


LENNOX LEWIS
41 WINS, 2 LOSSES, 32 KNOCKOUTS

Evander Holyfield
Mike Tyson
Vitali Klitschko
David Tua
Tommy Morrison
Ray Mercer
Oliver McCall
Razor Ruddock
Hasim Rahman
Shannon Briggs
Andrew Golota
Henry Akinwande
Tony Tucker
Michael Grant
Francois Botha
Zeljko Mavrovic
Gary Mason
Ossie Ocasio
Mike WeaverWBC Heavyweight Champion
WBA Heavyweight Champion
WBO Heavyweight Champion
IBF Heavyweight Champion
12 Total Title Defenses
Champion from 1993-1994, 1997-2001, 2001-2004
Defeated 12 World Champions
Defeated 2* Hall of Famers (Tyson and Holyfield in future)


Going by that, I would say that Lennox Lewis has the better resume. Both have defeated 2 hall of famers - and for each man, the hall of famers they defeated were past their primes. Additionally, Lewis beat more champions and defeated every man he stepped in the ring with. He has won all 4 alphabet soup belts and his total years as a champion exceeds Tyson's. Lewis nor Tyson could come back to win a fight after being knocked down to the canvass, but with Tyson, he never avenged a defeat. When Lewis was knocked down (and out), he came back on both occasions to earn TKO wins (I know he didn't really TKO McCall, but he still beat him). Mike was great - there is NO denying that, but everything analyzed and taken into consideration, Lewis should go down as the greater fighter.

Agree with everything you said but I need to add that Lewis' level of opposition was far better than Tyson and in that account, should put Lewis far higher than Tyson in the ATG list.

[TheGreat]

Let's compare them...

MIKE TYSON
50 WINS, 6 LOSSES, 44 KNOCKOUTS

Larry Holmes
Michael Spinks
Razor Ruddock (2)
Pinklon Thomas
Tony Tucker
Trevor Berbick
Frank Bruno (2)
Tony Tubbs
Bonecrusher Smith
Tyrell Biggs
Carl Williams
Francois Botha
Brian Nielsen
Buster Mathis, Jr.
Bruce Seldon
Quick Tillis
Marvis Frazier
Mitch GreenWBC Heavyweight Champion
WBA Heavyweight Champion
IBF Heavyweight Champion
10 Total Title Defenses
Champion from 1986-1990, 1996
Defeated 9 World Champions
Defeated 2* Hall of Famers (Holmes in future)


LENNOX LEWIS
41 WINS, 2 LOSSES, 32 KNOCKOUTS

Evander Holyfield
Mike Tyson
Vitali Klitschko
David Tua
Tommy Morrison
Ray Mercer
Oliver McCall
Razor Ruddock
Hasim Rahman
Shannon Briggs
Andrew Golota
Henry Akinwande
Tony Tucker
Michael Grant
Francois Botha
Zeljko Mavrovic
Gary Mason
Ossie Ocasio
Mike WeaverWBC Heavyweight Champion
WBA Heavyweight Champion
WBO Heavyweight Champion
IBF Heavyweight Champion
12 Total Title Defenses
Champion from 1993-1994, 1997-2001, 2001-2004
Defeated 12 World Champions
Defeated 2* Hall of Famers (Tyson and Holyfield in future)


Going by that, I would say that Lennox Lewis has the better resume. Both have defeated 2 hall of famers - and for each man, the hall of famers they defeated were past their primes. Additionally, Lewis beat more champions and defeated every man he stepped in the ring with. He has won all 4 alphabet soup belts and his total years as a champion exceeds Tyson's. Lewis nor Tyson could come back to win a fight after being knocked down to the canvass, but with Tyson, he never avenged a defeat. When Lewis was knocked down (and out), he came back on both occasions to earn TKO wins (I know he didn't really TKO McCall, but he still beat him). Mike was great - there is NO denying that, but everything analyzed and taken into consideration, Lewis should go down as the greater fighter.

Actualy WBOGUS doesn't count which why LL never had it either, he had the IBOGUS belt.

[TheGreat]

:lol: :patsch

Everything I said was true LL has the better resume but not by a wide margin and Joe Louis has the best resume ever.

[TheGreat]

Agree with everything you said but I need to add that Lewis' level of opposition was far better than Tyson and in that account, should put Lewis far higher than Tyson in the ATG list.

You are severely underrating Tyson's reign in the 80's he had beat alot of good fighters like Tucker, Bruno, Holmes and Spinks en route to clearing out the division.

[PATSYS]

You are severely underrating Tyson's reign in the 80's he had beat alot of good fighters like Tucker, Bruno, Holmes and Spinks en route to clearing out the division. No I am not. But everybody knows that the 90s HW division was far deeper than the 80s.

[TheGreat]

No I am not. But everybody knows that the 90s HW division was far deeper than the 80s.

But LL didn't fight the best of the 90's (Moorer and Bowe) While tyson fought just about every one in the 80's, i have seen credible arguments made for Tyson beating better comp, to be honest both men fall short of Holy who had the best comp but to say LL's comp is not only better but far better is to much IMO. Anyway what exactly makes LL's comp far better?

[PATSYS]

But LL didn't fight the best of the 90's (Moorer and Bowe) While tyson fought just about every one in the 80's, i have seen credible arguments made for Tyson beating better comp, to be honest both men fall short of Holy who had the best comp but to say LL's comp is not only better but far better is to much IMO. Anyway what exactly makes LL's comp far better?

Best of the 90s?

Back in 92, the #1 HW was Razor Ruddock. Lewis obliterated him.

Bowe beat Holyfield, but he ducked Lewis.

Moorer's stint at the top was very brief. He narrowly beat an ill Holyfield, then lost to Foreman in the very next fight. Then he fought a bunch of journeyman for a belt, and got koed by Holyfield in a rematch.

The best HW around 96 was thought to be Golota after his performance against Bowe. Lewis obliterated Golota in 1 round.

Then in there is the comebacking Tyson who ducked Lewis and was beaten by Holyfield. Lewis decisively beat Holyfield.

I am not gonna waste my time listing all the top guys Lewis fought in the 90s. The only guys he didn't fight are Tyson (who ducked him), Bowe (who ducked him), Moorer (who was on top only very briefly), Foreman and Holmes (pensioners). Lewis pretty much cleaned out the division.

Tyson didn't fight Witherspoon back in the 80s. Also Holyfield, who was in the top contention already by 1989. At any rate even if Tyson didn fight everybody else in the 80s there was just not enough good opponents back then. Holmes, Spinks, Tucker, Bruno...nobody, save for Tyson huggers, could ever think Tyson had better resume than Lewis.

[brooklyn1550]

Actualy WBOGUS doesn't count which why LL never had it either, he had the IBOGUS belt.

I stand corrected:good

[ChampionsForever]

Tyson could have beat every guy he faced, needless to say Williams and Mcbride but guys like Douglas Lewis and Evan, in hes prime I think he could have taken them all to school. Yeah I realise he was in hes prime when he fought Buster but a rematch and a properly trained Mike would have been interesting, lightening doesn't strike twice.

[barneyrub]

Let's compare them...

MIKE TYSON
50 WINS, 6 LOSSES, 44 KNOCKOUTS

Larry Holmes
Michael Spinks
Razor Ruddock (2)
Pinklon Thomas
Tony Tucker
Trevor Berbick
Frank Bruno (2)
Tony Tubbs
Bonecrusher Smith
Tyrell Biggs
Carl Williams
Francois Botha
Brian Nielsen
Buster Mathis, Jr.
Bruce Seldon
Quick Tillis
Marvis Frazier
Mitch GreenWBC Heavyweight Champion
WBA Heavyweight Champion
IBF Heavyweight Champion
10 Total Title Defenses
Champion from 1986-1990, 1996
Defeated 9 World Champions
Defeated 2* Hall of Famers (Holmes in future)


LENNOX LEWIS
41 WINS, 2 LOSSES, 32 KNOCKOUTS

Evander Holyfield
Mike Tyson
Vitali Klitschko
David Tua
Tommy Morrison
Ray Mercer
Oliver McCall
Razor Ruddock
Hasim Rahman
Shannon Briggs
Andrew Golota
Henry Akinwande
Tony Tucker
Michael Grant
Francois Botha
Zeljko Mavrovic
Gary Mason
Ossie Ocasio
Mike WeaverWBC Heavyweight Champion
WBA Heavyweight Champion
WBO Heavyweight Champion
IBF Heavyweight Champion
12 Total Title Defenses
Champion from 1993-1994, 1997-2001, 2001-2004
Defeated 12 World Champions
Defeated 2* Hall of Famers (Tyson and Holyfield in future)


Going by that, I would say that Lennox Lewis has the better resume. Both have defeated 2 hall of famers - and for each man, the hall of famers they defeated were past their primes. Additionally, Lewis beat more champions and defeated every man he stepped in the ring with. He has won all 4 alphabet soup belts and his total years as a champion exceeds Tyson's. Lewis nor Tyson could come back to win a fight after being knocked down to the canvass, but with Tyson, he never avenged a defeat. When Lewis was knocked down (and out), he came back on both occasions to earn TKO wins (I know he didn't really TKO McCall, but he still beat him). Mike was great - there is NO denying that, but everything analyzed and taken into consideration, Lewis should go down as the greater fighter.Lewis never held the WBO bauble, he had the IBO.

[lefthook31]

Why? Because it doesn't fit your argument?

No because Im pointing out that Tua would have represented the only fighter I feel a post prision Tyson might have had trouble with. I dont believe a prime Tyson would have any problems with Tua. Read buddy.

[lefthook31]

No I am not. But everybody knows that the 90s HW division was far deeper than the 80s.

Are you kidding??? The 90's were far deeper? In what sense? The fighters of the 80's would abuse guys like Briggs, Mavrovic, Grant, Golota, Akinwande, Rahman, Morrison.:lol: This is a joke right? These guys were technical messes, robotic stand still guys who couldnt box to save their lives.
When comparing these fighters you must look deeeper into their resumes. Ruddock outside of Tyson who brutalized him twice, fought Morrison and Dokes, and never went on to accomplish anything in the division. Same goes for guys like Grant, Akinwande, and Mavrovic.
The few good 80's fighters Lewis fought he looked pretty ordinary against. Mcall, Mercer, Bruno, Holyfield, Tucker...
Tyson on the otherhand, beat Bruno far worse, didnt struggle to barely a win against a guy of Mercers caliber, the same guy who was beat by Jesse Ferguson that Tyson beat easily. He also was just as competitive with Lewis level competition as a post prision fighter. Imagine what a prime Tyson would have done to Lewis competition compared to what Lewis would have done if he had to deal with more seasoned boxers of the 80's. He sure looked inconsistent with the few he faced.

[Decker]

Most people these days see Tyson for the fighter he was once he was released from prision. You mean the many here that even as late as pre McBride, said that if Mike got serious he could clean out the division :lol: If anything Tyson has been mythologized as even better than pre prison Mike.

You provide a good historical review and make some fair points in the middle. Then...

Its hard for me to imagine how some people consider Lewis the more accomplished fighter? Maybe because he rather easily beat MT? No doubt the best chance for Mike vs LL would be the early Tyson. And even then LL could have won. Tyson did not blow out everybody even in the 80s. And it's not like Mike's typical opponent was a LL. But you're just picking the best possible Tyson vs LL. Compare them throughout their careers. No contest - LL the better fighter. If Douglas could stop an early Tyson, LL couldn't at least UD him?

Sure his reign was longer, but the amount of fights are about equal and the competition is really not comparable. Yes, LL reign was longer. C'mon the comp is comparable... Mike lost to Holy, LL beat him :yep

With exception to Evander Holyfield, the post prision Tyson had his way just as easily with the fighters Lewis cemented his legacy with. Throw out David Tua, and its hard to imagine the shell of Tyson in the mid 90's having any problems with anyone Lewis faced. With exceptions and throw outs, anybody can make a great fighter merely good or average, and a good fighter great or the "best".

The fighters are much physically bigger now, but they are technically far inferior to the group of the 80's. Far inferior? :lol: Bull. The fighters in the 2000s (I include the latter LL) are at least equal, maybe better than the 80s. And the early Tyson is on the cusp, his prime in the late 80s/early 90s. There's just something about the 80s HWs that you like better than the current/recent guys.

[lefthook31]

Another thread to hate on Lewis ... damned lefthook31 and JLC seem to be really obsessed with that guy. They rival zakman´s hate for the mighty John Ruiz.

Its not a hate thread. I like Lewis. Im just making a post that generates a good solid boxing discussion with good point of views from different sides of the fence. If you dont like it, go post in the "what fighters wear the coolest trunks thread":hey

[lefthook31]

You mean the many here that even as late as pre McBride, said that if Mike got serious he could clean out the division :lol: If anything Tyson has been mythologized as even better than pre prison Mike.

You provide a good historical review and make some fair points in the middle. Then...

Maybe because he rather easily beat MT? No doubt the best chance for Mike vs LL would be the early Tyson. And even then LL could have won. Tyson did not blow out everybody even in the 80s. And it's not like Mike's typical opponent was a LL. But you're just picking the best possible Tyson vs LL. Compare them throughout their careers. No contest - LL the better fighter. If Douglas could stop an early Tyson, LL couldn't at least UD him?

Yes, LL reign was longer. C'mon the comp is comparable... Mike lost to Holy, LL beat him :yep

With exceptions and throw outs, anybody can make a great fighter merely good or average, and a good fighter great or the "best".

Far inferior? :lol: Bull. The fighters in the 2000s (I include the latter LL) are at least equal, maybe better than the 80s. And the early Tyson is on the cusp, his prime in the late 80s/early 90s. There's just something about the 80s HWs that you like better than the current/recent guys.
Give me a break buddy, Lewis fighting Tyson when he did was like Ali fighting Berbick when he did.
Again I mentioned Tua, because I felt he would have offered the toughest challenge of Tysons "post prision" career. Other than that Tyson pretty much proved he could smoke pot and go to strip clubs all night and still easily handle the fighters Lewis was fighting. With exception to a handful of guys who held on for life or could take a serious beating, Tyson won all his distance fights rather easily.
Again Tyson faced Holyfield after prision, four fights into a comeback from a 4 year layoff. Again I said Tysons decline after parting ways with Rooney was comparable to Lewis incline in skills after hiring Steward. Read my post before spinning it around. Tyson had about as many fights during his prime as Lewis did his entire career, and Tyson was about as consistent after prision as lewis was before hiring Emanuel Steward.

[PATSYS]

Are you kidding??? The 90's were far deeper? In what sense? The fighters of the 80's would abuse guys like Briggs, Mavrovic, Grant, Golota, Akinwande, Rahman, Morrison.:lol: This is a joke right? These guys were technical messes, robotic stand still guys who couldnt box to save their lives.
When comparing these fighters you must look deeeper into their resumes. Ruddock outside of Tyson who brutalized him twice, fought Morrison and Dokes, and never went on to accomplish anything in the division. Same goes for guys like Grant, Akinwande, and Mavrovic.
The few good 80's fighters Lewis fought he looked pretty ordinary against. Mcall, Mercer, Bruno, Holyfield, Tucker...
Tyson on the otherhand, beat Bruno far worse, didnt struggle to barely a win against a guy of Mercers caliber, the same guy who was beat by Jesse Ferguson that Tyson beat easily. He also was just as competitive with Lewis level competition as a post prision fighter. Imagine what a prime Tyson would have done to Lewis competition compared to what Lewis would have done if he had to deal with more seasoned boxers of the 80's. He sure looked inconsistent with the few he faced.

:lol: :patsch

Everybody knows the 80s was a shallow division.


Try to put up a poll as to which HW division was deeper 80s or 90s and result will hopefully get you some senses.

[lefthook31]

:lol: :patsch

Everybody knows the 80s was a shallow division.


Try to put up a poll as to which HW division was deeper 80s or 90s and result will hopefully get you some senses.

BS. Everyone knows.:patsch Rather than making a post like this, why dont you enlighten us as to why you think so?

[Decker]

Fine lefthook31, that's your analysis. I didn't call you a LL hater either. I think H2H, early, middle, late career, LL is a better fighter than MT. Some agree with me, others don't. Even going by their respective comp, LL compares very well to Tyson. Re Tyson smoking pot or going to strip clubs - so what? That's who he is, that's part of his make up. No reason that should add to (or subtract from) his accomplishments.

[lefthook31]

Fine lefthook31, that's your analysis. I didn't call you a LL hater either. I think H2H, early, middle, late career, LL is a better fighter than MT. Some agree with me, others don't. Even going by their respective comp, LL compares very well to Tyson. Re Tyson smoking pot or going to strip clubs - so what? That's who he is, that's part of his make up. No reason that should add to (or subtract from) his accomplishments.

The point being made was that a nonfocused non interested Tyson could compete in the same division Lewis was cementing his legacy with. I can respect your opinion, but these type of thread tend to get the best discussions going, thats why I like to put them up. Its not intended to hate on a fighter, just express the opinions of those who feel one may be better than the others. The people who have no logical input to the discussion, because they simply have no knowledge of the past, make idiotic posts with name calling and well "everybody knows" statements, not backing it up with any facts, and call me a hater.
I tend to think of myself as a realist, thats why I try to back up my posts with information, because I watched these figthers their entire careers, unlike most on here, that really started watching Lewis when he was already an experienced and accomplished champion, and Tyson was the shell of his former self after emerging from prision.

[TheGreat]

Best of the 90s?

Back in 92, the #1 HW was Razor Ruddock. Lewis obliterated him.

Bowe beat Holyfield, but he ducked Lewis.

Moorer's stint at the top was very brief. He narrowly beat an ill Holyfield, then lost to Foreman in the very next fight. Then he fought a bunch of journeyman for a belt, and got koed by Holyfield in a rematch.

The best HW around 96 was thought to be Golota after his performance against Bowe. Lewis obliterated Golota in 1 round.

Then in there is the comebacking Tyson who ducked Lewis and was beaten by Holyfield. Lewis decisively beat Holyfield.

I am not gonna waste my time listing all the top guys Lewis fought in the 90s. The only guys he didn't fight are Tyson (who ducked him), Bowe (who ducked him), Moorer (who was on top only very briefly), Foreman and Holmes (pensioners). Lewis pretty much cleaned out the division.

Tyson didn't fight Witherspoon back in the 80s. Also Holyfield, who was in the top contention already by 1989. At any rate even if Tyson didn fight everybody else in the 80s there was just not enough good opponents back then. Holmes, Spinks, Tucker, Bruno...nobody, save for Tyson huggers, could ever think Tyson had better resume than Lewis.

:-( Witherspoon lost to Bonecrusher which is why they didn't fight and Holy at the time only had 2 or 3 fights. You are a Tyson hater they fought many of the same fighters like Bruno, Holy, Tucker, Golota, Botha, and Biggs but Tyson faced most of them when they were younger and in thier prime, guys like Ruddock, Bruno, Holy, and biggs and Tucker fought Tyson when they were at thier best.

[Imperial1]

Why is it that every Tyson fan always brings up :

Well if he was properply trained for the Douglas fight he would have never lost .

If he had never gone to prison he would have owned Holy


A prime Tyson would destroy anyone ..

Well the man fought pretty much one style come forward ..I'm sure someone other than BUSTER Dougals would have figured that out ..That man imo would have been Holy ...It just would of had happen much sooner than later ..Stop the excuses!He had a very good run was excitiing to watch but was all brawn and no brain when it counted !

[TheGreat]

Why is it that every Tyson fan always brings up :

Well if he was properply trained for the Douglas fight he would have never lost .

If he had never gone to prison he would have owned Holy


A prime Tyson would destroy anyone ..

Well the man fought pretty much one style come forward ..I'm sure someone other than BUSTER Dougals would have figured that out ..That man imo would have been Holy ...It just would of had happen much sooner than later ..Stop the excuses!He had a very good run was excitiing to watch but was all brawn and no brain when it counted !

I agree some people make to many excuses for him but others also say that he fought nothing but bums and was exposed everytime someone stood up to him which is BS so it goes both ways BTW he never was as good post prison as he was in the 80's just as Ali was never as good as he was before his long lay off.IMO.

[Steve Fox]

After losing to Douglas, Tyson was happy maintaining his stock value by fighting minor opposition. If he hadn't had such a multitude of fawning devotees - and therefore money making potential - he would have never got away with the standard of opposition he did. The Tyson of the nineties (based on his opponents) was no more than top ten.

[lefthook31]

After losing to Douglas, Tyson was happy maintaining his stock value by fighting minor opposition. If he hadn't had such a multitude of fawning devotees - and therefore money making potential - he would have never got away with the standard of opposition he did. The Tyson of the nineties (based on his opponents) was no more than top ten.

Really!?? Razor Ruddock was considered minor opposition? Only when talking about Tyson. In regards to Lewis though, this was one of his finest performances, and often used as a benchmark as to why Lewis would have done so well against Tyson and Bowe.:-(
How about Alex Stewart? Fought Tyson with an excellent KO record, and considered very dangerous. Tyson blew him out, Holyfield struggled with him. Oh maybe you will tell me Stewart was just scared of Tyson right??:patsch

[Steve Fox]

Really!?? Razor Ruddock was considered minor opposition? Only when talking about Tyson. In regards to Lewis though, this was one of his finest performances, and often used as a benchmark as to why Lewis would have done so well against Tyson and Bowe.:-(
How about Alex Stewart? Fought Tyson with an excellent KO record, and considered very dangerous. Tyson blew him out, Holyfield struggled with him. Oh maybe you will tell me Stewart was just scared of Tyson right??:patschI meant generally, he did of course fight Holyfield, but the fact you produce such a small list only illustrates my point further.

[PATSYS]

:-( Witherspoon lost to Bonecrusher which is why they didn't fight and Holy at the time only had 2 or 3 fights. You are a Tyson hater they fought many of the same fighters like Bruno, Holy, Tucker, Golota, Botha, and Biggs but Tyson faced most of them when they were younger and in thier prime, guys like Ruddock, Bruno, Holy, and biggs and Tucker fought Tyson when they were at thier best.

If you recall your previous post you were criticising Lewis for not fighting Bowe and Moorer. So that is why I also replied that Tyson didn't fight Witherspoon and Holyfield!

Now you have the nerve to justify why Tyson didn't fight Witherspoon and Holy back in the 80s?? Duh, so now maybe you see how pointless your argument is for citing that Lewis hasn't fought Bowe and Moorer.

[lefthook31]

I meant generally, he did of course fight Holyfield, but the fact you produce such a small list only illustrates my point further.
You said after fighting Douglas didnt you? He fought Tillman, Bruno Williams, and Ruddock twice. He went to prision during training for Holyfield. Your point makes no sense.

[El Bombasto]

:rasta Most people these days see Tyson for the fighter he was once he was released from prision. His timing never came back and with exception to a brief stint with Tommy Brooks, he never had the proper guidance to bring him back to fighting form. People forgot the terror he was in the 80's mowing down fighter after fighter. Boxers, sluggers, didnt matter, Tyson tore through all of them. He faced former greats like Mike Spinks and Larry Holmes and destroyed them quite easily. Say what you will about Holmes, but he went on to have some pretty decent fights, and was never blown out like he was against Tyson.
The importance of Kevin Rooney in his career can only be compared to the importance of Emanuel Steward in Lennox Lewis' career. The proof is in their records and cosistency under each trainer. Tyson was undefeated and disciplined and fought a style that Rooney developed specifically for Tyson complimenting the Cus D'amto style. Steward also developed a style for Lewis which took away some of his vulnerabilities, he showed in fight with guys like Bruno and Mcall.
Its hard for me to imagine how some people consider Lewis the more accomplished fighter? Sure his reign was longer, but the amount of fights are about equal and the competition is really not comparable. With exception to Evander Holyfield, the post prision Tyson had his way just as easily with the fighters Lewis cemented his legacy with. Throw out David Tua, and its hard to imagine the shell of Tyson in the mid 90's having any problems with anyone Lewis faced.
Tyson was the youngest heavyweight champion and the last to unify it separately, topping it off with a blowout of the so called linear champion. The fighters are much physically bigger now, but they are technically far inferior to the group of the 80's.

that's not entirely true, tyson was garbage before he went to prison

[lefthook31]

that's not entirely true, tyson was garbage before he went to prison

Just like 99% of your posts.:good

[mrbassie]

that's not entirely true, tyson was garbage before he went to prison

He was definitely already declining but "garbage" is stretching it a bit, a lot in fact

[El Bombasto]

Just like 99% of your posts.:good

been on my jock for a while, huh?

[boxingabc123]

Really!?? Razor Ruddock was considered minor opposition? Only when talking about Tyson. In regards to Lewis though, this was one of his finest performances, and often used as a benchmark as to why Lewis would have done so well against Tyson and Bowe.:-(
How about Alex Stewart? Fought Tyson with an excellent KO record, and considered very dangerous. Tyson blew him out, Holyfield struggled with him. Oh maybe you will tell me Stewart was just scared of Tyson right??:patsch

Great post. It's often said who cares Tyson beat Ruddock he only had one punch. But then when talking about Lewis he was the best heavyweight that year and Lewis blew him out. So many fighters are bums when they fight Tyson but were solid competetion when Lewis fought them.

[Imperial1]

Great post. It's often said who cares Tyson beat Ruddock he only had one punch. But then when talking about Lewis he was the best heavyweight that year and Lewis blew him out. So many fighters are bums when they fight Tyson but were solid competetion when Lewis fought them.

Marvis Frazer ,Bruce Seldon ,were bums before they fought Tyson and after :rofl

[anut]

tyson in his prime would never have lost every single3 rd against frank bruno...............zelko mavorich would never go 12 rds with prime tyson.,.....phil jackson would get crusified in 1 or 2 rds......

[box03]

Tyson I think fought lesser oppenents but some of the guys he beat were considered contenders before he knocked them off like botha, who thought a great close fight with moorer and gollota was still looked at as being a good fighter at the time in 2000. Thats not forget Lewis had trouble with Frank Bruno also, I remember him almost knocking Lewis out early on.

[2smart4u]

Everything I said was true LL has the better resume but not by a wide margin and Joe Louis has the best resume ever.:lol: JOES isnt close and in fact JOE never beat someone as good as VITALY his whole carreer or for that matter as good as MIKE either ! And Im laughing because of the VITALY thing you said !

[barneyrub]

Tyson I think fought lesser oppenents but some of the guys he beat were considered contenders before he knocked them off like botha, who thought a great close fight with moorer and gollota was still looked at as being a good fighter at the time in 2000. Thats not forget Lewis had trouble with Frank Bruno also, I remember him almost knocking Lewis out early on.Bruno did not almost ko Lewis early on.

[box03]

Bruno did not almost ko Lewis early on. I do remember Lewis getting rocked, I know he did against Briggs too.

[Vanboxingfan]

Great post. It's often said who cares Tyson beat Ruddock he only had one punch. But then when talking about Lewis he was the best heavyweight that year and Lewis blew him out. So many fighters are bums when they fight Tyson but were solid competetion when Lewis fought them.

Well I would disagree with that comment if anything it's the other way around. One poster even suggested that Ruddock was brutalizsed so bad by Tyson that he considers the Lewis blowout as meaning next to nothing. Then of course the comments about Lewis beating an old washed up Holyfield keep coming back.

[lefthook31]

Bruno did not almost ko Lewis early on.

Yes he did

[lefthook31]

Marvis Frazer ,Bruce Seldon ,were bums before they fought Tyson and after :rofl

This statement is foolish. Tyson fought Frazier well before becoming a champion and the fight was hyped on the fact that Marvis was the son of Joe Frazier.
Seldon was the WBA champion and Tyson was fighting Seldon for his title.
Lewis faced plenty of fighters with far less accomplishments of Bruce Seldon.
How about the 14-19 Melvin Epps that Lewis faced around the same point in his career that Tyson was when he faced Frazier and was fighting his way up the ladder of contention?

[Imperial1]

This statement is foolish. Tyson fought Frazier well before becoming a champion and the fight was hyped on the fact that Marvis was the son of Joe Frazier.
Seldon was the WBA champion and Tyson was fighting Seldon for his title.
Lewis faced plenty of fighters with far less accomplishments of Bruce Seldon.
How about the 14-19 Melvin Epps that Lewis faced around the same point in his career that Tyson was when he faced Frazier and was fighting his way up the ladder of contention?

And they were still bums ..Holding a title and being a champion are 2 diffrent things !!But your right he did fight a bum in Melvin Epps ...He was no where near the caliber of fighter of the great Peter McKneely ..Yup your right Lennox fought the lesser opponents ..I don't see how anyone can compare these 2 resumes whats next comparing Holyfield's to Tyson ??

[lefthook31]

And they were still bums ..Holding a title and being a champion are 2 diffrent things !!But your right he did fight a bum in Melvin Epps ...He was no where near the caliber of fighter of the great Peter McKneely ..Yup your right Lennox fought the lesser opponents ..I don't see how anyone can compare these 2 resumes whats next comparing Holyfield's to Tyson ??

Im glad you see the light.:good

Don King could have put Tyson in with Mia St John on his comeback fight after prision and everyone would have still bought it. Kind of like Lewis fighting ****** Fortune after getting knocked out against Mcall right?

As far as Holyfield, he certainly fought better competition, but his win loss percentage is far worse. :hi:

[TheGreat]

If you recall your previous post you were criticising Lewis for not fighting Bowe and Moorer. So that is why I also replied that Tyson didn't fight Witherspoon and Holyfield!

Now you have the nerve to justify why Tyson didn't fight Witherspoon and Holy back in the 80s?? Duh, so now maybe you see how pointless your argument is for citing that Lewis hasn't fought Bowe and Moorer.

No if you recall you said the 90's were so much better than the 80's, I simply stated that he didn't fight 2 of the best guys from the 90's, Holy wasn't establised yet in the 80's as for Witherspoon he had already lost repeatedly to fighters Tyson beat.

[TheGreat]

:lol: JOES isnt close and in fact JOE never beat someone as good as VITALY his whole carreer or for that matter as good as MIKE either ! And Im laughing because of the VITALY thing you said !
:lol: :rofl :lol: Joe had 25 straight title defenses beating Walcott, Conn, and Schmeling and other champs who I consider better than Vitaly Who never beat anyone in his overrated career. All he did was win a vacant belt against golfer Sanders and defend it once against journeyman williams, FFS the highlight of his career in getting his face destroyed by LL.

[box03]

:lol: :rofl :lol: Joe had 25 straight title defenses beating Walcott, Conn, and Schmeling and other champs who I consider better than Vitaly Who never beat anyone in his overrated career. All he did was win a vacant belt against golfer Sanders and defend it once against journeyman williams, FFS the highlight of his career in getting his face destroyed by LL. Even the fact that Vitali was overrated he is still the tougher brother out of the two, and mental strength beats physical strength every night of the week.

[TheGreat]

Even the fact that Vitali was overrated he is still the tougher brother out of the two, and mental strength beats physical strength every night of the week.
True he is mentally stronger but Wlad has accomplished more in his career making him the better fighter IMO as he is more skilled, talented, faster and a better athlete.

[2smart4u]

:lol: :rofl :lol: Joe had 25 straight title defenses beating Walcott, Conn, and Schmeling and other champs who I consider better than Vitaly Who never beat anyone in his overrated career. All he did was win a vacant belt against golfer Sanders and defend it once against journeyman williams, FFS the highlight of his career in getting his face destroyed by LL.:patsch And none of those guys would have beaton VITALY ! BUM OF THE MONTH CLUB anyone !:hi:

[Cojimar 1945]

Louis accomplished more in his era than Lewis did in his.

[El Bombasto]

Lewis kicked Tyson's ass, end of story.

[Cojimar 1945]

And Berbick beat Ali

[TheGreat]

:patsch And none of those guys would have beaton VITALY ! BUM OF THE MONTH CLUB anyone !:hi:
:lol: sorry but Braddock, Walcott, Conn, Bear, schmeling, Carnera, and Sharkey all acomplished more than your hero who truely feasted on bums his whole career but lost the time he stepped up BTW a fight between Louis and Vitaly would be very similar to Louis vs. Carnera.

[box03]

Lewis kicked Tyson's ass, end of story. It didnt happen 88 or even 96 so it dont count. Tyson would of put Lewis to sleep even in 96 when he only had half of what he use to have. Its like Holmes tko over Ali it doesnt matter because he would of never been able to do it if he would of fought ali in his prime.

[TheGreat]

Lewis kicked Tyson's ass, end of story.

Just like:
Toney beat Holy
Morrison beat Foreman
Berbick beat Ali
Marciano beat Louis.

[TheGreat]

It didnt happen 88 or even 96 so it dont count. Tyson would of put Lewis to sleep even in 96 when he only had half of what he use to have. Its like Holmes tko over Ali it doesnt matter because he would of never been able to do it if he would of fought ali in his prime.

Exactly everyone acts like he beat the best version of Tyson.

[thesandman]

Tyson would of put Lewis to sleep even in 96 when he only had half of what he use to have. I

Based on what exactly? The fact Tysons camp paid money to Lewis to avoid fighting him, or Tysons performances against Holy - remember the guy he lost 2 times to, and Lewis beat not long after?

It's a good fight in 96 - but remember Tysons camp wanted Holy not Lewis, because Holy was considered done then, and they wanted to rebuild Tysons rep.

This whole thing is a bit of a stretch really, you're comparing a guy that peaked early for a short time, and faded over the length of his career, against a guy who improved over time.

[box03]

Based on what exactly? The fact Tysons camp paid money to Lewis to avoid fighting him, or Tysons performances against Holy - remember the guy he lost 2 times to, and Lewis beat not long after?

It's a good fight in 96 - but remember Tysons camp wanted Holy not Lewis, because Holy was considered done then, and they wanted to rebuild Tysons rep.

This whole thing is a bit of a stretch really, you're comparing a guy that peaked early for a short time, and faded over the length of his career, against a guy who improved over time. I understand what your saying but Lewis in his prime had a hard time beating holyfield in there second match in 99 against a guy who was at least 6 years out of his prime, he fought Tyson in 02 about 14 years out of his prime that just seems like good well executed timing to me. You cant give Lewis that much credit for beating either one of them, they were both especially tyson former shells of there old selfs. So your telling me you think Holmes is better than Ali for beating him at the very end of his career?

[Vanboxingfan]

Just like:
Toney beat Holy
Morrison beat Foreman
Berbick beat Ali
Marciano beat Louis.

There actually is a huge distinction between these fights and the Lewis - Tyson fight, namely their ages. On the fights you cited the younger fighters who were up and comming all beat the old veterns, in the case of Tyson - Lewis they both were roughly the same age in fact Lewis was older than Tyson.

[Vanboxingfan]

I understand what your saying but Lewis in his prime had a hard time beating holyfield in there second match in 99 against a guy who was at least 6 years out of his prime, he fought Tyson in 02 about 14 years out of his prime that just seems like good well executed timing to me. You cant give Lewis that much credit for beating either one of them, they were both especially tyson former shells of there old selfs. So your telling me you think Holmes is better than Ali for beating him at the very end of his career?

If they were the same age I might very well be saying that and in all honesty, a prime Holmes had a pretty decent change of beating Ali, assuming we're not buying into the Ali myth that he was unbeatable.

[2smart4u]

:lol: sorry but Braddock, Walcott, Conn, Bear, schmeling, Carnera, and Sharkey all acomplished more than your hero who truely feasted on bums his whole career but lost the time he stepped up BTW a fight between Louis and Vitaly would be very similar to Louis vs. Carnera.:lol: you need a youtube lesson !

[box03]

If they were the same age I might very well be saying that and in all honesty, a prime Holmes had a pretty decent change of beating Ali, assuming we're not buying into the Ali myth that he was unbeatable. Holmes would of had a chance of beating a prime Ali, but the man was amazing his footwork and handspeed were something people have never seen before from a man that size. Holmes was great I take nothing away from him his jab was the best of any Heavywieght, but in my opinion Ali was the greatest he would frustrate Larry like no other by dancing around him, picking his spots at will almost, which I feel would take Larry out of his game plan which in return would give Ali the advantage and the victory at nights end.

[Vanboxingfan]

Holmes would of had a chance of beating a prime Ali, but the man was amazing his footwork and handspeed were something people have never seen before from a man that size. Holmes was great I take nothing away from him his jab was the best of any Heavywieght, but in my opinion Ali was the greatest he would frustrate Larry like no other by dancing around him, picking his spots at will almost, which I feel would take Larry out of his game plan which in return would give Ali the advantage and the victory at nights end.

It's one possible outcome and perhaps even the most likely, but it's not a forgone conclussion. Ali for all his speed had faults, he kept his hands low, he tended to go straight back when pressured, he never had any kind of body attack and no insight fighting skills to speak of and was not a particularly hard puncher, he therefore was not unbeatable. In fact, I'm old enough to remember when he wasn't regarded all that highly. It was basically the Forman fight and the Frazier fights that propelled him into mythical heights.

[box03]

It's one possible outcome and perhaps even the most likely, but it's not a forgone conclussion. Ali for all his speed had faults, he kept his hands low, he tended to go straight back when pressured, he never had any kind of body attack and no insight fighting skills to speak of and was not a particularly hard puncher, he therefore was not unbeatable. In fact, I'm old enough to remember when he wasn't regarded all that highly. It was basically the Forman fight and the Frazier fights that propelled him into mythical heights. Im sure the Liston fights didnt hurt either towards his mythical status. But if you remember Ali was one of the few fighters who fought very well backing up, while your right he wasnt known for his power he made up for it with his punch selection and his picture perfect timing. Ali will always be one of a kind, just like tyson they were both bigger than the sport itself.

[TheGreat]

:lol: you need a youtube lesson !
You need a history lesson :lol:

[El Bombasto]

There actually is a huge distinction between these fights and the Lewis - Tyson fight, namely their ages. On the fights you cited the younger fighters who were up and comming all beat the old veterns, in the case of Tyson - Lewis they both were roughly the same age in fact Lewis was older than Tyson.

The bottom line is that part of being a great fighter is knowing when to hang it up. The idiom of a fighter only being good as his last fight rings true here. We can only speculate until the two fighters step into the ring; once that happens further speculation only serves to produce excuses for the loser...who would have thought that Douglas would beat Tyson, or that Spinks would beat Holmes, or that Schmleling would beat Louis, or that Rahman would beat Lewis...on any other night those results would have likely been reversed, but the bottom line is that on that when the two boxers got in the ring together there was a winner and a loser. And, on the night they fought, Lewis dominated and KO'd Tyson. If Tyson would have beat him in 1988 or 1996 or any other night, he should have fought Lewis back then, but he didn't and he lost. What's so hard to accept about that?

[thesandman]

I understand what your saying but Lewis in his prime had a hard time beating holyfield in there second match in 99 against a guy who was at least 6 years out of his prime, he fought Tyson in 02 about 14 years out of his prime that just seems like good well executed timing to me. You cant give Lewis that much credit for beating either one of them, they were both especially tyson former shells of there old selfs. So your telling me you think Holmes is better than Ali for beating him at the very end of his career?

Ali didn't hold 2 of the 3 alphabet belts, nor was the The ring champ (or ring #1, can't recall exactly what Holy was) going into the fight with Holmes.

Holy was v Lewis. Holy was also considered the favourite by some going into the fight.

Comparing the Ali/Holmes fight with Holy/Lewis is stretching things to the extreme. Ali was far from a current champ at the time of that fight.

Holy had 3 more title fights AFTER that fight with Ruiz, and is still in line for 1 many years later right NOW.

If you discount Lewis's win over Holy, you have to discount Holys wins over Tyson don't you? I mean, how much after those fights was the first Lewis fight? If that's the case, then Tyson was shot when Holy won.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say Tyson had something left when Holy beat him, but Holy was shot when Lewis beat him. It's not like it was 5 years between the fights.

I didn't give Lewis any credit for beating Tyson in 02. I said Tyson and/or his handlers wanted no part of Lewis in 96 - they wanted Holy instead.

[Decker]

Kid G makes the obvious point that on some nights an upset will happen. That's one of the reasons we watch, else why not play all sports in a computer or as they used to say, "on paper". You ask What's so hard to accept about that? See 2 posts above yours...

Ali will always be one of a kind, just like tyson they were both bigger than the sport itself. Yes, and while there are reasons for this that have little to do with actual boxing prowess, it's also the reason these two are overrated. With Tyson it's the constant excuses about all his personal failings, prison, a bad marriage (Givens), Don King, lost Cus, blah, blah... he had such a short prime :| Enough already ! It's like he's this child. The guy had more money pass through his hands in one year than most posters will see in a lifetime. Tyson isn't the only person in the world or the US to grow up in hard circumstances. And few will have the opportunities he had. He had a terrific late 80s, then one Buster Douglas exposed him over 17 years ago. He's so great but had this nanosecond prime. By the time he's 36 and fighting the similar aged LL, poor Mike was so washed up. But before he faught LL, the general public and many fight fans didn't think this way ! It's the Wlad effect. Before Wlad, fighter X will expose his chin, after Wlad wins, fighter X was a bum anyway :-( Same with LL. :yep

With Ali it's even more complex. The 'Nam issue even comes into play. Although what bearing a guys political stances should have on his boxing career makes no sense. Please, I know the story. He was robbed. He made a decision and robbed himself. When I was very young some (white) guy in the neighberhood refused to be drafted. He did some time. Then of course Ali huggers marry the best of the pre exile Ali with the best of the post Ali exile, add a dash of hype and myth, and presto, the best ever !

Fighters like LL, K bros, and others would easily beat all of Ali's & Tyson's fair to middling opponents, and could compete with or beat the rest.
And spare me the selective sampling and selective memory arguments. :deal

[Cojimar 1945]

Lewis was older than Tyson but Tyson peaked much earlier than Lewis.

[2smart4u]

You need a history lesson :lol::patsch Film doesnt lie ! Those guys were not very good and its all on YOUTUBE for you to see !:yep Now go get some youtube lessons !:good

[2smart4u]

Kid G makes the obvious point that on some nights an upset will happen. That's one of the reasons we watch, else why not play all sports in a computer or as they used to say, "on paper". You ask What's so hard to accept about that? See 2 posts above yours...

Yes, and while there are reasons for this that have little to do with actual boxing prowess, it's also the reason these two are overrated. With Tyson it's the constant excuses about all his personal failings, prison, a bad marriage (Givens), Don King, lost Cus, blah, blah... he had such a short prime :| Enough already ! It's like he's this child. The guy had more money pass through his hands in one year than most posters will see in a lifetime. Tyson isn't the only person in the world or the US to grow up in hard circumstances. And few will have the opportunities he had. He had a terrific late 80s, then one Buster Douglas exposed him over 17 years ago. He's so great but had this nanosecond prime. By the time he's 36 and fighting the similar aged LL, poor Mike was so washed up. But before he faught LL, the general public and many fight fans didn't think this way ! It's the Wlad effect. Before Wlad, fighter X will expose his chin, after Wlad wins, fighter X was a bum anyway :-( Same with LL. :yep

With Ali it's even more complex. The 'Nam issue even comes into play. Although what bearing a guys political stances should have on his boxing career makes no sense. Please, I know the story. He was robbed. He made a decision and robbed himself. When I was very young some (white) guy in the neighberhood refused to be drafted. He did some time. Then of course Ali huggers marry the best of the pre exile Ali with the best of the post Ali exile, add a dash of hype and myth, and presto, the the best ever !

Fighters like LL, K bros, and others would easily beat all of Ali's & Tyson's fair to middling opponents, and could compete with or beat the rest.
And spare me the selective sampling and selective memory arguments. :deal:happy :good You sir know your stuff !

[Cojimar 1945]

If one guy enters his prime at a far younger age than most heavyweights it doesen't seem that unreasonable that he might begin to decline at a younger age. In fact one could argue that Tyson had a longer prime than Lewis did it's just that it started when he was only 20. Tyson was in his prime against Douglas and Holyfield. However, the Lewis fight occurred in 2002, which is more than 15 years after the Berbick fight. Lewis's entire professional career did not even span 15 years.

[Decker]

Lewis was older than Tyson but Tyson peaked much earlier than Lewis. In the investment world everybody is a genius - after the fact. Yeah, I could see that stock was going down, or gold would go up, oil volatile, yadda yadda.

Before he faught Lewis few fight fans were talking about how washed up Tyson was... after Lewis some started to see the truth. And still many Tyson fanatics would not give up the hype of Mike until they saw him flat on his butt vs the "great" Kevin McBride 3 years later. :verysad :gsg

[box03]

In the investment world everybody is a genius - after the fact. Yeah, I could see that stock was going down, or gold would go up, oil volatile, yadda yadda.

Before he faught Lewis few fight fans were talking about how washed up Tyson was... after Lewis some started to see the truth. And still many Tyson fanatics would not give up the hype of Mike until they saw him flat on his butt vs the "great" Kevin McBride 3 years later. :verysad :gsg I never gave up hope until that night I always made excuses for him, that was sad night for me I think the date was like june 11 05 I always remember what Im doing the night of a Tyson fight lol.

[Decker]

Thanks 2smart4u I've been observing this sport for 40 years.

I may dislike some fighters but really hate none of them. They're human beings with good and bad points just like all of us. Many of them aren't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but that's not uncommon in pro sports. As I've gotten older I tend not to worship any of them. I admire their skill, but it amazes me how many middle aged and older men seem to live through their sports heros or derive some sort of self esteem from their exploits.

[Decker]

I never gave up hope until that night I always made excuses for him, that was sad night for me I think the date was like june 11 05 I always remember what Im doing the night of a Tyson fight lol. I have to admit, you surprised me with that response. :cool:

[box03]

Whys that? I grew up watching Tyson Im sure you had a sports star you enjoyed watching and spent time following there career, I guess I always wanted Tyson to go out with a blaze of glory not like that, quiting on his stool.

[PIRA]

Thanks 2smart4u I've been observing this sport for 40 years.

I may dislike some fighters but really hate none of them. They're human beings with good and bad points just like all of us. Many of them aren't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but that's not uncommon in pro sports. As I've gotten older I tend not to worship any of them. I admire their skill, but it amazes me how many middle aged and older men seem to live through their sports heros or derive some sort of self esteem from their exploits.

Exactly - been in the fight game for thirty years now, seen them come seen them go and no-one is as ferocious as a "fan" who feels their fighter has let them down. Goes two ways - either they turn and drop them like a hot potato or obsess and make constant excuses. Rarely do they ever exemplify a sporting attitude.

[2smart4u]

Thanks 2smart4u I've been observing this sport for 40 years.

I may dislike some fighters but really hate none of them. They're human beings with good and bad points just like all of us. Many of them aren't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but that's not uncommon in pro sports. As I've gotten older I tend not to worship any of them. I admire their skill, but it amazes me how many middle aged and older men seem to live through their sports heros or derive some sort of self esteem from their exploits.:good No problem my friend ! The ALL TIME GREAT explanation gets very tired after awhile ! Espesally when you lived through the eras ! You got it spot on ! Cheers !

[Decker]

Whys that? I grew up watching Tyson Im sure you had a sports star you enjoyed watching and spent time following there career, I guess I always wanted Tyson to go out with a blaze of glory not like that, quiting on his stool. What I meant was that you just gave an honest answer... instead of a smart ass repsonse trying to get into some pissing duel like others do here too readily.

Don't see the appeal of the many who do it on this and many boards of this type. Off & on I've been reading this team sports board for over 5 years. Same thing over there. It would be worse but it's more moderated. I've come close to joining but haven't yet. I read ESB for over 3 years before officially joining. I only have so much time to read this and other forums - never mind lame back and forth insults with strangers. It's funny because I'm much more blunt in person than most people, that is I'm not very "political". But on a forum like this I try to keep it to the arguments about the sport and its participants. It's clear that more than a few posters are flat out trolls.

[2smart4u]

What I meant was that you just gave an honest answer... instead of a smart ass repsonse trying to get into some pissing duel like others do here too readily.

Don't see the appeal of the many who do it on this and many boards of this type. Off & on I've been reading this team sports board for over 5 years. Same thing over there. It would be worse but it's more moderated. I've come close to joining but haven't yet. I read ESB for over 3 years before officially joining. I only have so much time to read this and other forums - never mind lame back and forth insults with strangers. It's funny because I'm much more blunt in person than most people, that is I'm not very "political". But on a forum like this I try to keep it to the arguments about the sport and its participants. It's clear that more than a few posters are flat out trolls.:good

[box03]

What I meant was that you just gave an honest answer... instead of a smart ass repsonse trying to get into some pissing duel like others do here too readily.

Don't see the appeal of the many who do it on this and many boards of this type. Off & on I've been reading this team sports board for over 5 years. Same thing over there. It would be worse but it's more moderated. I've come close to joining but haven't yet. I read ESB for over 3 years before officially joining. I only have so much time to read this and other forums - never mind lame back and forth insults with strangers. It's funny because I'm much more blunt in person than most people, that is I'm not very "political". But on a forum like this I try to keep it to the arguments about the sport and its participants. It's clear that more than a few posters are flat out trolls. Yeah theres some guys on here I have done that with, all in all I try to listen to other peoples opinions as tough as it is sometimes. But yeah I admit sometimes my like or hate for a fighter clouds my true thoughts and views on there abilities and accomplishments. You seem to have a good knowledge and understanding of the sport, we need more posters such as your self and trolls as you said in your post.:good

[Decker]

Exactly - been in the fight game for thirty years now, seen them come seen them go and no-one is as ferocious as a "fan" who feels their fighter has let them down. Goes two ways - either they turn and drop them like a hot potato or obsess and make constant excuses. Rarely do they ever exemplify a sporting attitude. Spot on, especially that last sentence ! :yep The way some of these posters act, you'd think their daughter was molested or they lost everything on a bet gone wrong.

[Vanboxingfan]

The bottom line is that part of being a great fighter is knowing when to hang it up. The idiom of a fighter only being good as his last fight rings true here. We can only speculate until the two fighters step into the ring; once that happens further speculation only serves to produce excuses for the loser...who would have thought that Douglas would beat Tyson, or that Spinks would beat Holmes, or that Schmleling would beat Louis, or that Rahman would beat Lewis...on any other night those results would have likely been reversed, but the bottom line is that on that when the two boxers got in the ring together there was a winner and a loser. And, on the night they fought, Lewis dominated and KO'd Tyson. If Tyson would have beat him in 1988 or 1996 or any other night, he should have fought Lewis back then, but he didn't and he lost. What's so hard to accept about that?

That's a very insightful reply, I've said the same a number of times. I just wish more posters would accept the obvious, which is that the results speak for themselves and any excusses only serve to discredit the winner, who probably trained and fought his ass off to win and doesn't deserve this type of treatment.

[Vanboxingfan]

What I meant was that you just gave an honest answer... instead of a smart ass repsonse trying to get into some pissing duel like others do here too readily.

Don't see the appeal of the many who do it on this and many boards of this type. Off & on I've been reading this team sports board for over 5 years. Same thing over there. It would be worse but it's more moderated. I've come close to joining but haven't yet. I read ESB for over 3 years before officially joining. I only have so much time to read this and other forums - never mind lame back and forth insults with strangers. It's funny because I'm much more blunt in person than most people, that is I'm not very "political". But on a forum like this I try to keep it to the arguments about the sport and its participants. It's clear that more than a few posters are flat out trolls.

Well I for one am glad you joined. :good

[Vanboxingfan]

Kid G makes the obvious point that on some nights an upset will happen. That's one of the reasons we watch, else why not play all sports in a computer or as they used to say, "on paper". You ask What's so hard to accept about that? See 2 posts above yours...

Yes, and while there are reasons for this that have little to do with actual boxing prowess, it's also the reason these two are overrated. With Tyson it's the constant excuses about all his personal failings, prison, a bad marriage (Givens), Don King, lost Cus, blah, blah... he had such a short prime :| Enough already ! It's like he's this child. The guy had more money pass through his hands in one year than most posters will see in a lifetime. Tyson isn't the only person in the world or the US to grow up in hard circumstances. And few will have the opportunities he had. He had a terrific late 80s, then one Buster Douglas exposed him over 17 years ago. He's so great but had this nanosecond prime. By the time he's 36 and fighting the similar aged LL, poor Mike was so washed up. But before he faught LL, the general public and many fight fans didn't think this way ! It's the Wlad effect. Before Wlad, fighter X will expose his chin, after Wlad wins, fighter X was a bum anyway :-( Same with LL. :yep

With Ali it's even more complex. The 'Nam issue even comes into play. Although what bearing a guys political stances should have on his boxing career makes no sense. Please, I know the story. He was robbed. He made a decision and robbed himself. When I was very young some (white) guy in the neighberhood refused to be drafted. He did some time. Then of course Ali huggers marry the best of the pre exile Ali with the best of the post Ali exile, add a dash of hype and myth, and presto, the best ever !

Fighters like LL, K bros, and others would easily beat all of Ali's & Tyson's fair to middling opponents, and could compete with or beat the rest.
And spare me the selective sampling and selective memory arguments. :deal

I enjoyed reading this post. Certain fighters, such as Tyson, Ali and Marciano have become mythical in peoples minds, and of course mere mortals couldn't possibly beat them, even if they may have struggled with less than elite fighters or won a close majority decision. The fact is any fighter can loose if they are fighting another elite fighter and the style match up is wrong or they had an off day for whatever reason. (ie lack of training, unknown injury) etc.

[Cojimar 1945]

Some people might have thought Tyson wasn't shot but I hardly see this as terribly relevant. I'm not sure exactly how high Tyson should have been rated when he fought Lewis, maybe 8th or 9th so arguably Lewis should get some sort of credit for the win but I don't see any arguement that Tyson was anywhere close to his best.

[DamonD]

And I've certainly never ever seen anyone claim Tyson was close to his best in '02. Not even the rabid Tyson fans.

The question was whether what Tyson had left was good enough to win, and obviously we got the answer to that.

I'd rather appreciate both Tyson and Lewis for their highs and their lows as a part of the HW landscape I've loved for so long. Individual standings are fine for debates and arguments but at the end of the day I wouldn't want to be without either guy.

[lefthook31]

If one guy enters his prime at a far younger age than most heavyweights it doesen't seem that unreasonable that he might begin to decline at a younger age. In fact one could argue that Tyson had a longer prime than Lewis did it's just that it started when he was only 20. Tyson was in his prime against Douglas and Holyfield. However, the Lewis fight occurred in 2002, which is more than 15 years after the Berbick fight. Lewis's entire professional career did not even span 15 years.

Tyson physically could have been in his prime when he fought Holyfield, but not his fighting prime. He had been out of prision for a year, had three fights, was away from any real boxing trainer and looked horribly sloppy in most of his comeback fights. Tyson reached his fighting peak at the Spinks fight. Once he left Rooney, he was on a solid decline, and the decline continued once he was released from prision.

[Decker]

I enjoyed reading this post. Certain fighters, such as Tyson, Ali and Marciano have become mythical in peoples minds, and of course mere mortals couldn't possibly beat them, even if they may have struggled with less than elite fighters or won a close majority decision. The fact is any fighter can loose if they are fighting another elite fighter and the style match up is wrong or they had an off day for whatever reason. (ie lack of training, unknown injury) etc. True, and a very common sense post Van. Yet it's almost fascinating how many boxing fans don't seem to know this. Agree, like with Ali & Tyson; Marciano, Dempsey, & Johnson are mythical in many fans minds. The latter 3 usually among older fight fans.

Quick story. A few year ago, pre McBride fight, a guy in our office was talking up Tyson. This guy is probably more of a casual fan and I'm a more serious fan with a better perspective. I told him - he's no good anymore "Joe", he might lose to this guy. He kept talking up Mike. I actually thought Tyson would make more of a fight of it and had a 50-50 chance to stop McBride in the early rounds - myths die hard even among the more rational :yep
After the fight "Joe" said nothing, and not wanting to rub it in, neither did I.

[Imperial1]

Exactly everyone acts like he beat the best version of Tyson.

No the best version of Tyson was beat by Douglas ..Lewis would of beat him just as bad !

[lefthook31]

No the best version of Tyson was beat by Douglas ..Lewis would of beat him just as bad !

Thats like saying the best version of Lewis was beat by Mcall or Rahman. Do you believe that? Of course not..

[Imperial1]

Thats like saying the best version of Lewis was beat by Mcall or Rahman. Do you believe that? Of course not..

Oliver McCall barring that mental break down was one hell of a heavy weight ..You can't compare Buster Douglas to Oliver McCall ..

[lefthook31]

[quote=Imperial1]Oliver McCall barring that mental break down was one hell of a heavy weight ..You can't compare Buster Douglas to Oliver McCall ..[/quote


so your saying Mcall was a much better fighter than Douglas?:yep


















Mcall was schooled by Douglas in 89

[TheGreat]

No the best version of Tyson was beat by Douglas ..Lewis would of beat him just as bad !

If he could have then he would have tried to fight him in the 80's genius, BTW your logic is retarted as Sanders, Ruiz and Byrd should be able to beat Lewis since Rahman and McCall were able to.

[TheGreat]

Oliver McCall barring that mental break down was one hell of a heavy weight ..You can't compare Buster Douglas to Oliver McCall ..

That is the single most ignorant post I have ever seen.

[Imperial1]

If he could have then he would have tried to fight him in the 80's genius, BTW your logic is retarted as Sanders, Ruiz and Byrd should be able to beat Lewis since Rahman and McCall were able to.

I thought Tyson and King paid step aside money their genius or did you forget that ???

[TheGreat]

[quote=Imperial1]Oliver McCall barring that mental break down was one hell of a heavy weight ..You can't compare Buster Douglas to Oliver McCall ..[/quote


so your saying Mcall was a much better fighter than Douglas?:yep


















Mcall was schooled by Douglas in 89
:good you just exposed Imperial1 as an ignorant hater with zero boxing knowledge.

[Imperial1]

[quote=lefthook31]
:good you just exposed Imperial1 as an ignorant hater with zero boxing knowledge.


Well then i'm the dummy ..Hey I can take it shit I can't know everything ..He who is with out a wrong call prediction or history lesson may cast the 1st stone !:lol:

[TheGreat]

I thought Tyson and King paid step aside money their genius or did you forget that ???

you just stated Lewis would have destroyed Tyson during his reign of terror in the late 80's and early 90's before he went to jail, I wasn't talking about the Tyson that came out of jail.

[lefthook31]

[quote=lefthook31]
:good you just exposed Imperial1 as an ignorant hater with zero boxing knowledge.

I can understand why people dislike Tyson so much when he came out of prision. he was a total prick, and really a part time fighter, but people really shouldnt make comments based on facts they dont really know.
Imperial you should watch Tyson from 86-89 and you will see how good he really was, and how much of a focused well equipped fighter he was, amazing stuff really, and you can easily see the decline in his skills after the Spinks fight and leading to his prision time. He basically got rid of everyone that got him to the level he achieved, and it was quite obvious he couldnt do it without them.
Same goes for Lewis, he improved as quickly as Tyson declined once bringing on Emanuel Steward, but in my opinion, didnt dominate the way Tyson was during his peak, especially against the better fighters.

[Decker]

No the best version of Tyson was beat by Douglas ..Lewis would of beat him just as bad !Hey, what are you trying to do? Confuse the Tyson huggers with logic :yep

They'll come back with devastating "arguments" like, "you retarded," or "that's an ignorant post." Maybe they should include their own posts in the dumb post category - so they could win something in life. :lol: The guy you got into that pissing match with is a troll. I'll read and respond to guys like lefthook31, who offer arguments and don't act like an ass if you treat him in a reasonable manner.

[Imperial1]

[quote=TheGreat]

I can understand why people dislike Tyson so much when he came out of prision. he was a total prick, and really a part time fighter, but people really shouldnt make comments based on facts they dont really know.
Imperial you should watch Tyson from 86-89 and you will see how good he really was, and how much of a focused well equipped fighter he was, amazing stuff really, and you can easily see the decline in his skills after the Spinks fight and leading to his prision time. He basically got rid of everyone that got him to the level he achieved, and it was quite obvious he couldnt do it without them.
Same goes for Lewis, he improved as quickly as Tyson declined once bringing on Emanuel Steward, but in my opinion, didnt dominate the way Tyson was during his peak, especially against the better fighters.

I have watched plenty of Tyson's fights I will say this and agree with a previos post once Rooney was out the pic he went on the delcine ..Now Maybe Tyson would have done well in the 80's against LL pre Manny Stewardt because the one thing I will give Mike is that he performed at his best against Taller fighters ie Berbick ..But the one thing that was always up in the air was what would Tyson do if he couldn't dismantle his opponets in under 6 ie Smith,Tillis,Green ,Tucker and finally Douglas ..One thing that I noticed in his fight w/LL is that the Tyson of old in the clinch would of ripped combos to the body then then the head that was the Cus Demotta way of fighting ..After he no longer had Rooney and Cus he just beleived his own hype and thought he could steam roll through everyone ..I think the real issue was w/his decline no one knew how to maintain the formula for Tyson's success ..

[thesandman]

[quote=TheGreat]

I can understand why people dislike Tyson so much when he came out of prision. he was a total prick, and really a part time fighter, but people really shouldnt make comments based on facts they dont really know.
Imperial you should watch Tyson from 86-89 and you will see how good he really was, and how much of a focused well equipped fighter he was, amazing stuff really, and you can easily see the decline in his skills after the Spinks fight and leading to his prision time. He basically got rid of everyone that got him to the level he achieved, and it was quite obvious he couldnt do it without them.
Same goes for Lewis, he improved as quickly as Tyson declined once bringing on Emanuel Steward, but in my opinion, didnt dominate the way Tyson was during his peak, especially against the better fighters.

I loved watching Tyson in 86-89. And I really think that a fight between the best Tyson and best Lewis is a pick em fight. I like both guys at their best, both were very very tough to beat. Tyson obviously more destructive, but Lewis was much more versatile.

The Tyson fans pick 3 years of his career, and say 'that's the best, he was unchallenged then'.

But, that's like for Lewis picking 95-00 and saying he was completely dominant in that time, beating

Morrison
Mercer
McCall
Akinwande
Golota
Briggs
Mavrovic
Holyfield (1 draw, 1 win)
Grant
Botha
Tua

And really peaking around the Golota/Grant time.

With the exception of the Mercer fight, Lewis dominated all of them (unless you're a Holy fan, who still believe he won the 2nd fight).

You can't ignore the fact that Tyson lost when he shouldn't have to Douglas. Just as you can't ignore the fact Lewis lost to McCall when he shouldn't have. (and Rahman, altho at 35 age starts to creep in).

A tall strong boxer/puncher that stands up to Tyson was always going to cause him problems, purely on the physical size matchup.

[box03]

That night in feb of 90 alot of boxers could of beat Tyson the man was out of it, he was clearly not the man of 85-89 who dominated fighters into submission. Alot of people forget Douglas fought Mccall for the right to fight tyson in japan the following year, Mccall would of definitely beat Tyson also, Douglas just happend to be there at right place and right time. Tyson just didnt beat his competition like Lewis, he destroyed his oppenents with all the rage and fury like a prime Dempsy, Tyson was the epitome of what a fighter should be.

[thesandman]

That night in feb of 90 alot of boxers could of beat Tyson the man was out of it, he was clearly not the man of 85-89 who dominated fighters into submission. Alot of people forget Douglas fought Mccall for the right to fight tyson in japan the following year, Mccall would of definitely beat Tyson also, Douglas just happend to be there at right place and right time. Tyson just didnt beat his competition like Lewis, he destroyed his oppenents with all the rage and fury like a prime Dempsy, Tyson was the epitome of what a fighter should be.

Revisionist again.

Tillis, Green, Smith, Tucker all went the distance with Tyson.

All convenienlty forgotten. Guys talk like every Tyson fight was KO1 or KO2. Tyson was an awesome fighter without doubt. But he was fed a lot of scrubs to build up the aura around this KO machine too.


Are you telling me Lewis wouldn't blow out guys like Marvis Frazier too?

[box03]

Revisionist again.

Tillis, Green, Smith, Tucker all went the distance with Tyson.

All convenienlty forgotten. Guys talk like every Tyson fight was KO1 or KO2. Tyson was an awesome fighter without doubt. But he was fed a lot of scrubs to build up the aura around this KO machine too.


Are you telling me Lewis wouldn't blow out guys like Marvis Frazier too? Yes Lewis would of blew out guys like Marvis, what im trying to say is yes Lewis gets the job down but not in the same manner as Tyson does, Tyson was probably th most physically complete fighter of all-time what he lacked was all mental. Name one fighter that was just as fast and as powerful as Tyson? And I know its not Lewis.

[Vanboxingfan]

That night in feb of 90 alot of boxers could of beat Tyson the man was out of it, he was clearly not the man of 85-89 who dominated fighters into submission. Alot of people forget Douglas fought Mccall for the right to fight tyson in japan the following year, Mccall would of definitely beat Tyson also, Douglas just happend to be there at right place and right time. Tyson just didnt beat his competition like Lewis, he destroyed his oppenents with all the rage and fury like a prime Dempsy, Tyson was the epitome of what a fighter should be.

I don't know about that. I think Lewis' destruction of Ruddock, Golota, Grant and Rahman are on par with anything Tyson did. And I also thought Lewis' demantling of Vitali and Tyson were something to behold. The Lewis - Tyson fight was an absolute clinic on how to systematically break down a fighter. That first round was a classic and the strategy Lewis used which was to land devasting uppercuts and use his size and strength avantages was perfect. I'm not taking away anything from Tyson, he was definately entertaining, but he certainly doesn't have the versatility of Lewis, who could win by blowing out fighters (Rahman II, Grant, Golota), gutting out wins (Mercer), ring generalship (tua), or systmatically breaking a fighter down (Tyson, Vitali).

[lefthook31]

Revisionist again.

Tillis, Green, Smith, Tucker all went the distance with Tyson.

All convenienlty forgotten. Guys talk like every Tyson fight was KO1 or KO2. Tyson was an awesome fighter without doubt. But he was fed a lot of scrubs to build up the aura around this KO machine too.


Are you telling me Lewis wouldn't blow out guys like Marvis Frazier too?

Maybe not in 30 seconds like Tyson did. Remember Tyson fought Frazier long before he even fought for the title, so using Frazier as a common opponent is meaningless. The only thing that can be said is that Frazier was dispatched extremely fast, and one of the fastest KO's ever.
Your full of crap saying he was fed a bunch of scrubs to build up his aura. When? When he was the champion unifying the titles? If your talking about leading up to his title fights, take a look at Lewis record, its no better if not worse, but typical for a fighter moving up the ranks.
Four guys going the distance with Tyson in 38 fights??? Thats not impressive :lol: ??

[lefthook31]

I don't know about that. I think Lewis' destruction of Ruddock, Golota, Grant and Rahman are on par with anything Tyson did. And I also thought Lewis' demantling of Vitali and Tyson were something to behold. The Lewis - Tyson fight was an absolute clinic on how to systematically break down a fighter. That first round was a classic and the strategy Lewis used which was to land devasting uppercuts and use his size and strength avantages was perfect. I'm not taking away anything from Tyson, he was definately entertaining, but he certainly doesn't have the versatility of Lewis, who could win by blowing out fighters (Rahman II, Grant, Golota), gutting out wins (Mercer), ring generalship (tua), or systmatically breaking a fighter down (Tyson, Vitali).
How to systematically breakdown a heavybag maybe. To compare Tyson in the Lewis fight to anything Tyson was in his prime is just
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[lefthook31]

Yes Lewis would of blew out guys like Marvis, what im trying to say is yes Lewis gets the job down but not in the same manner as Tyson does, Tyson was probably th most physically complete fighter of all-time what he lacked was all mental. Name one fighter that was just as fast and as powerful as Tyson? And I know its not Lewis.
Tyson didnt lack the mental fortitude in the 80's, that why Rooney was such an important part of his success.

[Imperial1]

Ok LEWIS might have the better resume, BUT TYSON WAS The better fighter , and prime for prime , Lewis wouldn't be able to handle Tyson's ferociousness.. You only have to watch the 1st round when they both met in 2002, and see how Tyson ,albeit, having lost a lot of his speed , really overwhelmed Lewis and Lewis didn't know what to do...He was surprised at Tyson's attack. Can you imagine Tyson in his 80's doing that to Lewis,.. he would have crumbled like a sack of potatoes..I'm no hater of Lewis either, but I saw the way he found it difficult to contain Tyson in the very 1st round, however Tyson,being at his age, and having all his skills diminished, fitness etc..couldn't maintain it for the rest of the fight.

Prime vs Prime well if were talking about LL w/Stewart in his corner that jab would of stopped Tyson dead in his tracks ..One thing that LL learned as he got older was how to effectivly use his reach ..

[Steve Fox]

Ok LEWIS might have the better resume, BUT TYSON WAS The better fighter , and prime for prime , Lewis wouldn't be able to handle Tyson's ferociousness.. You only have to watch the 1st round when they both met in 2002, and see how Tyson ,albeit, having lost a lot of his speed , really overwhelmed Lewis and Lewis didn't know what to do...He was surprised at Tyson's attack. Can you imagine Tyson in his 80's doing that to Lewis,.. he would have crumbled like a sack of potatoes..I'm no hater of Lewis either, but I saw the way he found it difficult to contain Tyson in the very 1st round, however Tyson,being at his age, and having all his skills diminished, fitness etc..couldn't maintain it for the rest of the fight.Lewis was overwhelmed in the first was he? Absolutely priceless!

[lefthook31]

Ok LEWIS might have the better resume, BUT TYSON WAS The better fighter , and prime for prime , Lewis wouldn't be able to handle Tyson's ferociousness.. You only have to watch the 1st round when they both met in 2002, and see how Tyson ,albeit, having lost a lot of his speed , really overwhelmed Lewis and Lewis didn't know what to do...He was surprised at Tyson's attack. Can you imagine Tyson in his 80's doing that to Lewis,.. he would have crumbled like a sack of potatoes..I'm no hater of Lewis either, but I saw the way he found it difficult to contain Tyson in the very 1st round, however Tyson,being at his age, and having all his skills diminished, fitness etc..couldn't maintain it for the rest of the fight.
Tyson did win the first round, but hardly anything impressive. He looked like he did when he fought Botha. Slow and old. He said he was badly hurt by an uppercut in the second round by Lewis, but I have to think Tyson would have never gotten hit by Lewis so cleanly in his prime.

[ironchamp]

Lewis was overwhelmed in the first was he? Absolutely priceless!

Actually he was overwhelmed. He was definately tense which is why he mentioned it in the post fight interview. Also if you notice Lewis didnt let his hands go much until the second round when Tyson had already lost steam. He needed to calm down he needed to see a winded Tyson before he got more comfortable. Based on my observations from the fight I'd again say that he was overwhelmed.

[biglads]

Tyson isn't the mythical beast that some have him to be.
Even in his prime he looked less than stellar against a big heavy in Bonecrusher and a big one-handed heavy in Tony Tucker.

The only notable HWT in his era that Lewis didn't fight was Bowe - and Bowe self destructed pretty quickly.
Lewis' blowouts of Grant, Ruddock & Golota are just as impressive as Tyson - Berbick or Tyson - Spinks.

Styles make fights and Tyson is made for Lewis.

A prime meeting would see Lewis by mid-late round KO, just as happened when they met too late.

[ironchamp]

Tyson isn't the mythical beast that some have him to be.
Even in his prime he looked less than stellar against a big heavy in Bonecrusher and a big one-handed heavy in Tony Tucker.

Styles make fights and Tyson is made for Lewis.

Lewis by mid-late round KO, just as happened when they met too late.

BoneCrusher held all fight long and did little to make a fight of it because he feared that Tyson would knock him out. Lewis looked unimpressive against Mavrovic and lackluster against Billups.

Point is Lewis beat Mavrovic and Billups decisively. Just like Tyson beat Tucker and Smith.

[Steve Fox]

Actually he was overwhelmed. He was definately tense which is why he mentioned it in the post fight interview. Also if you notice Lewis didnt let his hands go much until the second round when Tyson had already lost steam. He needed to calm down he needed to see a winded Tyson before he got more comfortable. Based on my observations from the fight I'd again say that he was overwhelmed.You need to watch that again, or invest in a dictionary.

[Vanboxingfan]

Ok LEWIS might have the better resume, BUT TYSON WAS The better fighter , and prime for prime , Lewis wouldn't be able to handle Tyson's ferociousness.. You only have to watch the 1st round when they both met in 2002, and see how Tyson ,albeit, having lost a lot of his speed , really overwhelmed Lewis and Lewis didn't know what to do...He was surprised at Tyson's attack. Can you imagine Tyson in his 80's doing that to Lewis,.. he would have crumbled like a sack of potatoes..I'm no hater of Lewis either, but I saw the way he found it difficult to contain Tyson in the very 1st round, however Tyson,being at his age, and having all his skills diminished, fitness etc..couldn't maintain it for the rest of the fight.

This is utter bullshit. Tyson can back after the first round and told his corner he was hurt. The uppercuts Lewis landed clearly hurt him and Lewis fought a masterful round during that fight as it sent the tone for the rest of the bout. You might want to try watching it sometime.

[Vanboxingfan]

How to systematically breakdown a heavybag maybe. To compare Tyson in the Lewis fight to anything Tyson was in his prime is just
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Well personally I wouldn't have gotten into the ring with him on that night but obviously you think differently. Fortunately, most boxing fans also agree that Lewis systematically destroyed Tyson that night, even if he was a shell of himself, he was still dangerous early on and only an idiot would fail to take him seriously. And I'm not saying Lewis beat a prime TYson, what I am saying is that executed a well thought out plan that resulted in a systematic beating. You'd pretty much have to not be a boxing fan not to appreciate how systematic this was. Funny there are so many different types of fans, most seem to only appreciate it if a fighter takes out an opponent in the first two rounds, but although I enjoy that too, I actually enjoy a fighter sytematically beating someone over a number of rounds and softening them up for the take out. But to each his own.

[lefthook31]

Well personally I wouldn't have gotten into the ring with him on that night but obviously you think differently. Fortunately, most boxing fans also agree that Lewis systematically destroyed Tyson that night, even if he was a shell of himself, he was still dangerous early on and only an idiot would fail to take him seriously. And I'm not saying Lewis beat a prime TYson, what I am saying is that executed a well thought out plan that resulted in a systematic beating. You'd pretty much have to not be a boxing fan not to appreciate how systematic this was. Funny there are so many different types of fans, most seem to only appreciate it if a fighter takes out an opponent in the first two rounds, but although I enjoy that too, I actually enjoy a fighter sytematically beating someone over a number of rounds and softening them up for the take out. But to each his own.

I can certainly appreciate a fighter breaking down his opponents, thats why Im such a big fan of Evander Holyfield, and now Miguel Cotto.
Call me crazy but Lennox Lewis systematically breaking down a shot fighter is not that impressive to me, just as his performance against Holyfield wasnt impressive. Even Emanuel Steward implored Lewis to step up the pace because he had a dead man in front of him in Tyson. The cautious style he fought with just made a man of his physical stature look so small in my eyes.
On the other hand the way he took apart Klitschko over 7 or 8 rounds was impressive. Not because he took a lot of punches, but because he took the fight to Klitschko and forced his will.

[lefthook31]

Tyson isn't the mythical beast that some have him to be.
Even in his prime he looked less than stellar against a big heavy in Bonecrusher and a big one-handed heavy in Tony Tucker.

The only notable HWT in his era that Lewis didn't fight was Bowe - and Bowe self destructed pretty quickly.
Lewis' blowouts of Grant, Ruddock & Golota are just as impressive as Tyson - Berbick or Tyson - Spinks.

Styles make fights and Tyson is made for Lewis.

A prime meeting would see Lewis by mid-late round KO, just as happened when they met too late.
Berbick and Spinks were ten times the fighters Grant Ruddock and Golota ever were..:lol:

[Vanboxingfan]

I can certainly appreciate a fighter breaking down his opponents, thats why Im such a big fan of Evander Holyfield, and now Miguel Cotto.
Call me crazy but Lennox Lewis systematically breaking down a shot fighter is not that impressive to me, just as his performance against Holyfield wasnt impressive. Even Emanuel Steward implored Lewis to step up the pace because he had a dead man in front of him in Tyson. The cautious style he fought with just made a man of his physical stature look so small in my eyes.
On the other hand the way he took apart Klitschko over 7 or 8 rounds was impressive. Not because he took a lot of punches, but because he took the fight to Klitschko and forced his will.

Well obviously the level of opposition has to matter, as for the Steward's comments, Lewis as asked about that and he said he hurt his hand with a punch earlier and needed a round or two to adjust to this. He didn't really see the point of arguing about this in between rounds.

As mentioned I have a completely different take on this fight. Tyson's no joke even a shot Tyson and Lewis simply didn't want to take any unnecessary chances. Even a shot Tyson is dangerous if he connects. But I agree, Lewis' fight against Vitali was a more impressive. One must remember that the main objective of this sport is to hit and not be hit. It's not to go out there and wail away and hope your opponent doesn't connect before you do.

[lefthook31]

Well obviously the level of opposition has to matter, as for the Steward's comments, Lewis as asked about that and he said he hurt his hand with a punch earlier and needed a round or two to adjust to this. He didn't really see the point of arguing about this in between rounds.

As mentioned I have a completely different take on this fight. Tyson's no joke even a shot Tyson and Lewis simply didn't want to take any unnecessary chances. Even a shot Tyson is dangerous if he connects. But I agree, Lewis' fight against Vitali was a more impressive. One must remember that the main objective of this sport is to hit and not be hit. It's not to go out there and wail away and hope your opponent doesn't connect before you do.
Yes and thats what made Tyson so special and exciting in his youth, because he would come out wailing, but bobbed, weaved, and countered his opponents punches, never stepping back, and hardly ever getting hit cleanly,something he never did once coming out of prision. His timing never returned, and he was never the elusive target that he was when he was younger. He basically became a one dimensional banger.

[Vanboxingfan]

Yes and thats what made Tyson so special and exciting in his youth, because he would come out wailing, but bobbed, weaved, and countered his opponents punches, never stepping back, and hardly ever getting hit cleanly,something he never did once coming out of prision. His timing never returned, and he was never the elusive target that he was when he was younger. He basically became a one dimensional banger.

No argument from me. I was one of the few who picked Holyfield to beat him in their first fight, cause I saw the level of opposition he was blowing out and knew it was a joke.