Calzaghe's place in history post-Kessler [Archive]

brooklyn1550

09-01-2007, 11:05 PM

Joe Calzaghe, if he beats Kessler convincingly, will go down as the most ACCOMPLISHED super middleweight of all time. Not the H2H best, but accomplishment wise, I would put him at the top. It would also give him a future spot in boxing's HOF.

A loss and he's still a top 10 super middleweight of all time, just not as high as if he were to win.

Quik

09-02-2007, 12:03 AM

brooklyn1550

09-02-2007, 01:23 AM

No i think even if he loses hes still No 1 to me until we can say someone else, most likely kessler, do more then him.

I would keep Roy Jones over Calzaghe if Calzaghe lost. Jones win over an undefeated James Toney exceeds Calzaghe's wins over Jeff Lacy and Chris Eubank by a longshot.

KO Boxing

09-02-2007, 01:30 AM

I would keep Roy Jones over Calzaghe if Calzaghe lost. Jones win over an undefeated James Toney exceeds Calzaghe's wins over Jeff Lacy and Chris Eubank by a longshot.
Even if Calzaghe beats Kessler... :deal

Clearly Cool

09-02-2007, 01:50 AM

I have been watching kesslers career and I think he is bound to be great, so if calzaghe beats him soundly, then Calzaghe has to be number one 168lbs of all time.

I think this fight will be interesting because if calzaghe or kessler gets easily demolished it raised questions about his career. Maybe they have only been so successful because of there low quality of opposition?

DanePugilist

09-02-2007, 02:53 AM

Kessler will be his biggest fight. It all boils down to how big, the wins over Lacy, Reid, Woodhall, Veit and Eubank is rated. He was the only one to KD Eubank I believe.

I say the best is yet to come, regardless if he loses to Kessler. He might even get rated higher, if Lacy and Kessler do something great.

Nonetheless, 20 defences is still pretty great regardless of how you rate his opponents.

McGrain

09-02-2007, 06:29 AM

DanePugilist

09-02-2007, 06:40 AM

Regardless of the Kessler result, Cal will be remembered as a hugely talented boxer that never got the job done. He had the talent but never the opposition, and arguably the balls/smarts to get involved with that competition. Shame.He can't do any better than facing Kessler at 168.

He should have landed fights with Hopkins, and RJJ back in the day, however, that might well have been their fault also.

Decebal

09-02-2007, 06:47 AM

He can't do any better than facing Kessler at 168.

He should have landed fights with Hopkins, and RJJ back in the day, however, that might well have been their fault also.

Consensus is that it was definitely mostly "their fault" - JC was not a draw for them...he wasn't a name...he was just dangerous...no incentive for them to take HIM on, rather than the guys they ended up taking on...shame.

Fat Tony

09-02-2007, 06:47 AM

Regardless of the Kessler result, Cal will be remembered as a hugely talented boxer that never got the job done. He had the talent but never the opposition, and arguably the balls/smarts to get involved with that competition. Shame.

He wasted his talent so far but it's not too late.

Three more fights after Kessler:

Hopkins, Taylor/Pavlik, Dawson.

That should be enough to "save" his reputation - assuming he'll win those fights.

McGrain

09-02-2007, 06:53 AM

He can't do any better than facing Kessler at 168.

Agreed. In fact it might be the best fight that could have been made in boxing this year.

He should have landed fights with Hopkins, and RJJ back in the day, however, that might well have been their fault also.

Woods, Johnson, Michalczewski maybe?, Tarver, Taylor...any one of these guys would arguably have been the best fighter that he had fought, in my opinion.

Decebal

09-02-2007, 06:54 AM

He wasted his talent so far but it's not too late.

Three more fights after Kessler:

Hopkins, Taylor/Pavlik, Dawson.

From JC's point of view...he would like to do Hopkins and then retire...but if JC looks good against Kessler, unless he loses, Hopkins will never take Joe on.

From fans point of view...he would take on whoever are the two best winners of Dawson/Diaconu, Taylor/Pavlik, Berrio/Bute.

So a compromise would be Hopkins and then the best winner of Dawson/Diaconu, Taylor/Pavlik, Berrio/Bute, because he would get a career-high payday and the recognition in the US he has always craved, beating a NAME - the resume boys would have a field day praising JC...AND he would fight a live dangerman, for a lot of money, again, cementing his legacy and becoming a much loved favourite with the true fans...

But first he has to get over Kessler...

McGrain

09-02-2007, 06:54 AM

Consensus is that it was definitely mostly "their fault" - JC was not a draw for them...he wasn't a name...he was just dangerous...no incentive for them to take HIM on, rather than the guys they ended up taking on...shame.

The smaller man, in this era (thank God) CAN get fights with top men if he is willing to make concessions in pay and territory. However in the main it requires a campaign of some sorts. Calzaghe chose to sit on his ass and rake in what could be made.

See Hatton for the correct model, including ditching ******.

McGrain

09-02-2007, 06:57 AM

He wasted his talent so far but it's not too late.

Three more fights after Kessler:

Hopkins, Taylor/Pavlik, Dawson.

That should be enough to "save" his reputation - assuming he'll win those fights.

Yeah, good post.

I would push things a little further though. If Calzaghe had pushed, early on, for big fights against big fighters, if he'd gone to the US and campaighned it's possible we would now be talking about the best fighter of this decade. Or longer. In a Lennox Lewis type of situation (dropping a couple and then avenging them), which I think it is possible to envisage, p4p discussions would have ensued, and rightly so.

Look what we're discussing now, instead.

THN

09-02-2007, 07:01 AM

Win or loose to Kessler he will be rememberd as a great champion.

Decebal

09-02-2007, 07:02 AM

The smaller man, in this era (thank God) CAN get fights with top men if he is willing to make concessions in pay and territory. However in the main it requires a campaign of some sorts. Calzaghe chose to sit on his ass and rake in what could be made.

See Hatton for the correct model, including ditching ******.

I used to take the exact stance you did - I was even more highly critical, but now my criticism is more nuanced...I have come to accept that in pro-boxing, the NAME Americans could have made more money for less risk NOT taking on Calzaghe...whatever concessions the latter would have prepared to make...and...looking through the other end of the looking-glass, JC, in fighting the best Americans for very little money would have taken a disproportionately high risk/reward ratio...at least in the short and medium term...so...I am more lenient now ABOUT THE PAST...

...but now that JC has a huge profile, including in the USA...there are no excuses whatsoever for him selling out - he HAS to fight at least one live dangerman after Kessler to redeem himself completely...if he is too old to carry on, he should just retire and not even go for the big money against has-been NAME Bhop. Then, he would retire from the field with full honour - unrealistic/idealistic...I know...

McGrain

09-02-2007, 07:06 AM

I used to take the exact stance you did - I was even more highly critical, but now my criticism is more nuanced...I have come to accept that in pro-boxing, the NAME Americans could have made more money for less risk NOT taking on Calzaghe...whatever concessions the latter would have prepared to make...and...looking through the other end of the looking-glass, JC, in fighting the best Americans for very little money would have taken a disproportionately high risk/reward ratio...at least in the short and medium term...so...I am more lenient now ABOUT THE PAST...

Decebal, that's naive. Hatton was certainly not seen as an easy pay day for the top American based fighters - he forced there hands by going over there. Lewis too. You cannot hide from another figter in America, only if you sit on your ass at home. Is it fair? No. Is it the way it is? Absolutley. Does Calzaghe know this? If he doesn't he's an idiot who has surrounded himself with idiots, if he does then he's a coward/fool.

And it still doesn't explain away fights that didn't happen like Woods (in America now, I believe - smart man, wants the best) or Johnson (fought quality opposition outside of the US more times than Calzaghe, probably).

DanePugilist

09-02-2007, 07:15 AM

Agreed. In fact it might be the best fight that could have been made in boxing this year. Okay, it was just that you said this: "Regardless of the Kessler result, Cal will be remembered as a hugely talented boxer that never got the job done", maybe my english is too broken to understand the full extent of your line.

Woods, Johnson, Michalczewski maybe?, Tarver, Taylor...any one of these guys would arguably have been the best fighter that he had fought, in my opinion.I my view Woods, Johnson and DM would all have been good fights, but I don't think he would have gained more acceptance with the US crowd/media, and they often create the consensus of what is great. Taylor have been too busy fighting smaller guys or getting the big names. I do not doubt for a minute that JC would have loved to face Taylor, at any given point.

At least thats my 2 cents.

McGrain

09-02-2007, 07:20 AM

Okay, it was just that you said this: "Regardless of the Kessler result, Cal will be remembered as a hugely talented boxer that never got the job done", maybe my english is too broken to understand the full extent of your line.

Ah, I see. I just mean that two days of good deeds don't make up for a life time of crime. Yeah?

I my view Woods, Johnson and DM would all have been good fights, but I don't think he would have gained more acceptance with the US crowd/media, and they often create the consensus of what is great.

I agree it wouldn't have helped Cal in terms of US exposure outside of the hardcore. I don't agree it wouldn't alter his status in terms of greatness.

Taylor have been too busy fighting smaller guys or getting the big names. I do not doubt for a minute that JC would have loved to face Taylor, at any given point.

Sure, Cal would have been up for it, and sure I would have picked him to win, i'd be sure enough to lay cash in fact. But you have to do more, as a European to get these kinds of fghts. Serous pay cut (which some who know the fighter better insist he was prepared to do - fair enough, but in every interview I have seen/read, he has said the opposite) or exteneded trips to the states, like Ricky Hatton.

DanePugilist

09-02-2007, 07:22 AM

From JC's point of view...he would like to do Hopkins and then retire...but if JC looks good against Kessler, unless he loses, Hopkins will never take Joe on.

From fans point of view...he would take on whoever are the two best winners of Dawson/Diaconu, Taylor/Pavlik, Berrio/Bute.

So a compromise would be Hopkins and then the best winner of Dawson/Diaconu, Taylor/Pavlik, Berrio/Bute, because he would get a career-high payday and the recognition in the US he has always craved, beating a NAME - the resume boys would have a field day praising JC...AND he would fight a live dangerman, for a lot of money, again, cementing his legacy and becoming a much loved favourite with the true fans...

But first he has to get over Kessler...He would never meet Bute/Berrio. I am not trying to dis them, but at this point, I think that JC is done with fighters that won't extent his legacy.

Taylor/Pavlik/Dawson/(Diaconu, not sure if he would though, since I believe Dawson will be labelled as prematurely hyped, should he lose)/Hopkins/Winky are good bets, should he win over Kessler. Should he lose I think Woods or Johnson will be the next ones. Maybe RJJ in either case.

Decebal

09-02-2007, 07:23 AM

Decebal, that's naive. Hatton was certainly not seen as an easy pay day for the top American based fighters - he forced there hands by going over there. Lewis too. You cannot hide from another figter in America, only if you sit on your ass at home. Is it fair? No. Is it the way it is? Absolutley. Does Calzaghe know this? If he doesn't he's an idiot who has surrounded himself with idiots, if he does then he's a coward/fool.

And it still doesn't explain away fights that didn't happen like Woods (in America now, I believe - smart man, wants the best) or Johnson (fought quality opposition outside of the US more times than Calzaghe, probably).

Ok...let us assume that analysis is bang on...what would JC have to do (if it isn't too late because of his age) to redeem himself, in your eyes? DO you agree with my previous post on the subject?

Decebal

09-02-2007, 07:26 AM

He would never meet Bute/Berrio. I am not trying to dis them, but at this point, I think that JC is done with fighters that won't extent his legacy.

Taylor/Pavlik/Dawson/(Diaconu, not sure if he would though, since I believe Dawson will be labelled as prematurely hyped, should he lose)/Hopkins/Winky are good bets, should he win over Kessler. Should he lose I think Woods or Johnson will be the next ones. Maybe RJJ in either case.

Fair enough...but would Pavlik extend his legacy more than the winner of Berrio/Bute, even if he beat Taylor? Debatable...

To be honest with you...the winner of unbeaten Bute v. Pavlik or Dawson v. Bute would extend his legacy more than any other name you could come up with, after Kessler.

UndisputedUK

09-02-2007, 07:29 AM

I would keep Roy Jones over Calzaghe if Calzaghe lost. Jones win over an undefeated James Toney exceeds Calzaghe's wins over Jeff Lacy and Chris Eubank by a longshot.

Jones had the style to beat Toney, the style to beat anyone at that time. Superb.

Eubank and Lacy were not bums.

DanePugilist

09-02-2007, 07:29 AM

Ah, I see. I just mean that two days of good deeds don't make up for a life time of crime. Yeah?:lol: Correcting your wrongs is always great, but okay, then I agree.

I agree it wouldn't have helped Cal in terms of US exposure outside of the hardcore. I don't agree it wouldn't alter his status in terms of greatness. Euros opinions don't count.:lol: :smoke . Kidding aside, from a fans POV these fights would of course establish greatness, so correct again.

Sure, Cal would have been up for it, and sure I would have picked him to win, i'd be sure enough to lay cash in fact. But you have to do more, as a European to get these kinds of fghts. Serous pay cut (which some who know the fighter better insist he was prepared to do - fair enough, but in every interview I have seen/read, he has said the opposite) or exteneded trips to the states, like Ricky Hatton.I foremostly blame FW, but JC should blamed for not pushing FW and taking paycut/fighting abroad. Hatton, as you say, did what JC should have done. Now Hatton is being rewarded. If you wanna land fights, you can't be stubborn. So once again, you are correct - 3/3.

Decebal

09-02-2007, 07:31 AM

whilst agree with most parts.. i still wonder, your talking names and career high paydays, but where does a bute or berrio fit into that picture.?

both guys would be a step back, should he beat kessler:deal

bute/berrio would not be a career high payday and it would be a step back in comparison to Kessler, sure, but not so much of a step back as Hopkins would be. ;) I am not saying that Bute is better than Pavlik or Dawson...I am saying if all these guys win their next fights, JC should pick whoever is best and fight him...and then fight the second best, if he still can.

UndisputedUK

09-02-2007, 07:31 AM

DanePugilist

09-02-2007, 07:36 AM

Fair enough...but would Pavlik extend his legacy more than the winner of Berrio/Bute, even if he beat Taylor? Debatable...

To be honest with you...the winner of unbeaten Bute v. Pavlik or Dawson v. Bute would extend his legacy more than any other name you could come up with, after Kessler.Yes, just look at this board alone(which is a good indicator) - no doubt. Pavlik along with Taylor are well recognized in MW. Bute is an up-and-coming fighter. Berrio is just some guy that did a minor upset to claim a vacant belt.

To the last bit - well, Pavlik and Dawson(and maybe Bute if he beat those), would be good, especially from a fans pov - but Hopkins/RJJ/Winky would establish more, if you go by recognition in a wider perspective.

DanePugilist

09-02-2007, 07:37 AM

Benn dropped Eubank, and Collins dropped him with a body shot.I stand corrected then.

Decebal

09-02-2007, 07:41 AM

To the last bit - well, Pavlik and Dawson(and maybe Bute if he beat those), would be good, especially from a fans pov - but Hopkins/RJJ/Winky would establish more, if you go by recognition in a wider perspective.

I don't go by "recognition" - -because that is the resume game - also known as the MUG'S game! RJJ is not a live dangerman any more...like the winner of Dawson/Bute/Pavlik would be - so in lagacy terms, going for "recognition" is a bad move.

McGrain

09-02-2007, 07:45 AM

Ok...let us assume that analysis is bang on...what would JC have to do (if it isn't too late because of his age) to redeem himself, in your eyes? DO you agree with my previous post on the subject?

Nothing can be done at this late stage bro, for me anyway, because of what's in one of my earlier posts. It's possible, though by no means certain, that comparing Calzaghe to SRR could have been a sane and sensible thing - think it's possble that he was that good, I think it's possble that he could have been the best ever from this Island and more, perhpas. There's no way for him to proove that between now and then.

McGrain

09-02-2007, 07:47 AM

I foremostly blame FW, but JC should blamed for not pushing FW and taking paycut/fighting abroad. Hatton, as you say, did what JC should have done. Now Hatton is being rewarded. If you wanna land fights, you can't be stubborn.

Bang on.

Decebal

09-02-2007, 07:48 AM

:D

well the more i think about it, the more i agree with you..

isnt it highly hypocritical, to say that the champion, just bc, he is from europe, should receive less money, fighting in the other guys living room and so on..

personally im caught in the middle..

for me, its a matter of the americans opening up their eyes, and acknowledge that, the talent from abroad, is there to be found.

but also its about the fighters from europe, are willing to take the chance, take on a name fighter, thus creating new options both legacy and moneywise, should he win.

both arguments seems to be valid, and i wouldnt throw one or the other away.

Given his checkered/controversial past, at this stage of his career, Joe should "do his bit" for the sport, take the risks, and give back to the fans - yes - including those fans who went into the tens of thousands to see him make money with Manfredo...

also...because Joe talks about his legacy and all that...he should fight the Live dangermen that will truly cement and enhance his legacy more than a bunch of have-been NAMES...

sure...the Americans need to change too...and look - guys like Dawson are doing th right thing - going for live Diaconu not for NAME Tarver - things are changing a bit, I hope...

But...this is not about what the Americans want to do...this is about Joe being ABLE to call the right shots - let's see if he proves WILLING to do the right thing or not.

COME ON, JOE!:happy

DanePugilist

09-02-2007, 07:51 AM

I don't go by "recognition" - -because that is the resume game - also known as the MUG'S game! RJJ is not a live dangerman any more...like the winner of Dawson/Bute/Pavlik would be - so in lagacy terms, going for "recognition" is a bad move.Of course you can. As it is those fighters I mentioned have proven themselves, even if the background is painted, most people do not acknowledge this. Pavlik have not beaten any worldbeaters yet. Dawson have beaten one; Adamek.

At this point we don't know if Pavlik or Dawson are going to establish more or fade to grey. Hopkins/Winky/Taylor might be easier opponents, but they would still add more to JCs legacy - thats the injust name of the game.

McGrain

09-02-2007, 07:53 AM

Taylor is a good fighter and the undisputed MW champ of the world. Great scalp for Joe.

Decebal

09-02-2007, 07:56 AM

Of course you can. As it is those fighters I mentioned have proven themselves, even if the background is painted, most people do not acknowledge this. Pavlik have not beaten any worldbeaters yet. Dawson have beaten one; Adamek.

At this point we don't know if Pavlik or Dawson are going to establish more or fade to grey. Hopkins/Winky/Taylor might be easier opponents, but they would still add more to JCs legacy - thats the injust name of the game.

I really don't think that beating a past-their best Hopkins/Winky/Taylor could possibly add more to JC's legacy than a prime Dawson v. Bute winner - "IN HINDSIGHT"...in, say, 5 years or so...because LEGACY to me is about beating the best/most dangerous...not the ones who USED to be the best...so, even if "Dawson" would look less good on JC's resume than "Hopkins"...it would mean much more, to me!:good

Decebal

09-02-2007, 07:57 AM

Taylor is a good fighter and the undisputed MW champ of the world. Great scalp for Joe.

If he beats Pavlik...sure!:D

DanePugilist

09-02-2007, 08:05 AM

I really don't think that beating a past-their best Hopkins/Winky/Taylor could possibly add more to JC's legacy than a prime Dawson v. Bute winner - "IN HINDSIGHT"...in, say, 5 years or so...because LEGACY to me is about beating the best/most dangerous...not the ones who USED to be the best...so, even if "Dawson" would look less good on JC's resume than "Hopkins"...it would mean much more, to me!:goodI agree with this from a fans pov. However, fans are forgetful and unforgiving, and as time passes by, unless Dawson proves more, the legacy records will prove that Hopkins/Winky and Taylor were proven elites.

I know you like Bute(as do I), but I don't know where you come up with these mystical matchups for him - he is not even on the map(took Kessler 3 years as WC to get JC, and almost as long to get recognized as a threat

Decebal

09-02-2007, 08:13 AM

I know you like Bute (as do I):think , but I don't know where you come up with these :hippymystical :hippy matchups for him :sad2 - he is not even on the map(took Kessler 3 years as WC to get JC, and almost as long to get recognized as a threat

:cry:

:lol: ...true...But I am a very optimistic guy!;)

DanePugilist

09-02-2007, 09:19 AM

:cry:

:lol: ...true...But I am a very optimistic guy!;)Everything within reason:lol: - so far he has Bika as his biggest fight. Beating Berrio will be a good next step. After this, we shall see about the future, but as it is, he should get back in line to face Pavlik, Taylor or anyone like that.:lol: .

Anyway as I see it, he is more likely to meet Kessler before the others. Bute will have the IBF belt, and thats something that Kessler wants, unless he and/or JC fucks up that plan.:cool:

Decebal

09-02-2007, 11:02 AM

Who's consensus is that ? Frank ******s ! :patsch

Nah...the consensus between me and my two goldfish...

the_churn

09-02-2007, 02:46 PM

I just want to see Calzaghe win so Hopkins can whip him ! Show you chumps what a real great fighter is !:good

I don't know if I'd be so quick to take this fight if I was JC. If JC wins, fans will accuse him of winning against an old man with eroded skills and Hopkins will likely retire. If he loses, he will be called a fraud by allowing himself to be beaten by an old man with eroded skills. It will probably add a great deal to his pocketbook, but not much for his legacy IMO.