If a heavyweight is KO'd by a super middle weight and knocked down by another

[Mendoza]

If a heavyweight is KO'd by a super middleweight and knocked down by another middleweight, do you think he has a suspect chin?

[McGrain]

Johnson KO15 Jeffries.

[Mendoza]

Johnson KO15 Jeffries.

I was asked to post this poll. No name is listed in the poll to avoid favoritism or bias.

[Vantage_West]

could be towards haye if not exactly.

ali got dropped by 2 light heavy's before he was champ.

depends. if the punch made him totally chicken legged or out on his feet then yeah. but some great fighters with solid beards get knocked down. prolly due to a pressure issue. ala



frietas gets knocked down by barry jones.

[SuzieQ49]

Invalid Comparison


Jack Johnson was not a heavyweight when Choynski beat him. Johnson was a small malnourished 170-180lb kid when choynski fought him.


Now Ketchel on the otherhand knocked down a 205lb Physically ripped peak Jack Johnson. Impressive.

[Vantage_West]

joe louis gets knocked hard by a 169'lb conn

[mcvey]

Johnson KO15 Jeffries.

Some things just eat away at a man.:lol:

[Flea Man]

i assume this is about haye.

[janitor]

If a heavyweight is KO'd by a super middleweight and knocked down by another middleweight, do you think he has a suspect chin?

It depends entirley on the circumstances.

[Mendoza]

Interesting comments. Keep them coming.

[djanders]

It depends entirley on the circumstances.

My thoughts, too.

[Mendoza]

My thoughts, too.

I also depends on who the fighters are.

Assume the heavyweight " X " ranked guy in his timeline.

[mcvey]

If a heavyweight is KO'd by a super middleweight and knocked down by another middleweight, do you think he has a suspect chin?

I would like to ask for the source for the weights published please.
The second fighter is referred to here as 160 pound guy.
HE SCALED 170 1/4lbs for that fight.First inaccuracy.
Please show source for the 168 pounds weighed by the first fighter ,thank you.

[Mendoza]

I would like to ask for the source for the weights published please.
The second fighter is referred to here as 160 pound guy.
HE SCALED 170 1/4lbs for that fight.First inaccuracy.
Please show source for the 168 pounds weighed by the first fighter ,thank you.

Ok, then lets just say 168-170 1/4 if you think 2 and a quarter pounds makes that much of a difference. Thanks for voting.

[SuzieQ49]

Choynski knocked down a very light 170-180lb malnourished small weak jack johnson. Lets see him try that vs a 205-2105lb prime rock hard jack johnson.

[mcvey]

Ok, then lets just say 168-170 1/4 if you think 2 and a quarter pounds makes that much of a difference. Thanks for voting.
The wording above the voting poll says , '' and knocked down by a 160 pound guy.''
I think 10 1/4 pounds is significant,it takes him into a higher weight class.
So yes ,it does make a difference.
NOT OFF TO A GOOD START ARE YOU?:oops:

[Muchmoore]

Johnson KO15 Jeffries.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[janitor]

The size of a fighter is less important than how hard and how effectivley they hit.

George Foreman for example is regarded (rightly) as being one of the more durable heavyweight champions in history yet he was dropped by Jimmy Young.

Does anybody here think that Jimmy Young hit harder than Joe Choynski or Stanley Ketchel?

If not then why should Foreman get a pass for it just because he was droped by a feather fisted fighter who happened to weigh over 200 lbs?

The bottom line is that fighters with enexceptional power somtimes drop or stagger durable fighters and Smaller fighters somtimes hit much harder than bigger fighters.

If sombody gets dropped by Bob Satterfield you dont say "he got dropped by a lightheavyweigh". You say "he got dropped by one of the most formidable punches of that era".

[mcvey]

The size of a fighter is less important than how hard and how effectivley they hit.

George Foreman for example is regarded (rightly) as being one of the more durable heavyweight champions in history yet he was dropped by Jimmy Young.

Does anybody here think that Jimmy Young hit harder than Joe Choynski or Stanley Ketchel?

If not then why should Foreman get a pass for it just because he was droped by a feather fisted fighter who happened to weigh over 200 lbs?

The bottom line is that fighters with enexceptional power somtimes drop or stagger durable fighters and Smaller fighters somtimes hit much harder than bigger fighters.

If sombody gets dropped by Bob Satterfield you dont say "he got dropped by a lightheavyweigh". You say "he got dropped by one of the most formidable punches of that era".
Ali was dropped by188 lbs Cooper
Hart was stopped by164 lbs Gardner
Both are generally accepted as having good chins I think.

[GPater11093]

it dosent matter IMO

it depends who they were obviously if it was some tough journyman Heavyweight who was crap and got KOd by the greatest ever middle it would change it.

If it was a Heavyweight champ who got dropped by a hard hitting middle it could be a freak event

[Mendoza]

it dosent matter IMO

it depends who they were obviously if it was some tough journyman Heavyweight who was crap and got KOd by the greatest ever middle it would change it.

If it was a Heavyweight champ who got dropped by a hard hitting middle it could be a freak event

Once could be a freak event, but twice with one bing a KO loss?

[Muchmoore]

Once could be a freak event, but twice with one bing a KO loss?

Twice is very few considering the conditions he fought in, and how often he fought.

[Mendoza]

Twice is very few considering the conditions he fought in, and how often he fought.

What if it was three times? Also how many middles to super middles did so and so fight? It it was jsut a few, then three knockdowns is a lot.

[mcvey]

it dosent matter IMO

it depends who they were obviously if it was some tough journyman Heavyweight who was crap and got KOd by the greatest ever middle it would change it.

If it was a Heavyweight champ who got dropped by a hard hitting middle it could be a freak event

The super middleweight was Joe Choynsky,among the men he kod was
Frank Childs
Jim Hall
Peter Maher
George Godfrey.
Jim Jeffries went on record as saying "the hardest punch I ever received was from Joe Choynsky "
In their 20 rd draw Choynsky smashed a right hand into Jeffries mouth ,so powerful it drove his tooth through his lip ,so far it had to be cut out with a knife.
You can check this out by googling Jeffries/ Choynsky and going to Wikipedia , the free encyclopedia, it also has a photo of Choynsky ,arms out stretched ,with Johnson standing behind him.The photo was taken by the Chicago Daily News, in 1909, 8 years after their 1901 fight.
The size difference is not that huge, imo,check for yourself.
Johnson was 6 1/4in Choynsky between 5 10 1/2 and 5 11 1/2in ,[ sources vary].Bear in mind Johnson was 8 years younger ,and still maturing physically when they fought.
Jeffries and Johnson BOTH called Choynsky the hardest puncher they fought.

[Sakura]

Definetly

[Seamus]

It obviously points to flaws, though I think those flaws are as much or more related to focus than beard.

A good pr machine never hurts, also.

[Farmboxer]

Voted yes.

By the way, Haye has a bad chin. Solis stopped him and so did, well, say it.............

[Flea Man]

Voted yes.

By the way, Haye has a bad chin. Solis stopped him and so did, well, say it.............

And Haye would've stopped Solis in the first under pro rules, he had him on queer street.

David Tua was sparked by the first punch by Felix Savon in the amateurs, ever see him dropped in the pro's??? Awful psot.

[mcvey]

If a heavyweight is KO'd by a super middleweight and knocked down by another middleweight, do you think he has a suspect chin?

The" super middleweight ".referred to is Joe Choynsky.
Herbert Goldman ,the eminent boxing historian who edited 3 Ring Record books ,including the collectors edition 86/86 one , was the managing Editor of the Ring for the much of the 70's into the 80's ,and the Editor in Chief of Boxing Illustrated .
He gave an interview to the CBZ Journal, .
In the interview Goldman stated he considered Choynsky the FIRST LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION,and said that he fought in three fights billed as such ,this was in 1899,Choynsky ultimately lost his title to Kid McCoy.
A picture of Choynsky standing with Johnson directly behind him in a mirror like pose can be found on the Wikipedia free encyclopedia site , the photo was taken in 1909 8 years after their fight.A physical comparison can be made but of course Johnsonwas 8 years older and more mature when the photo was taken.
The" middleweight" referred to is Stanley Ketchel who scaled 170 1/4 lbs for that fight ,so he was NOT a middleweight at fight time

[janitor]

Joe Choynski was one of the hardest and most effective punchers of his weight that ever lived.

He is going to be a prety unforgiving oponent for any fighter who is still learning his trade.

And yes I think he could have dropped most heavyweight champions in their prime.

[Mendoza]

Joe Choynski was one of the hardest and most effective punchers of his weight that ever lived.

He is going to be a prety unforgiving oponent for any fighter who is still learning his trade.

And yes I think he could have dropped most heavyweight champions in their prime.


One of the hardest and most effective punchers that ever lived? Can you explain to me why his KO% low?

Choynski on film was fast, and by news reads was skilled. If he had big time power, he should have more KO's, unless it was style and cautiousness.

[Flea Man]

I clicked yes on the proviso we are talking about a 'modern' HW, i.e 14 stone and over.

[mcvey]

One of the hardest and most effective punchers that ever lived? Can you explain to me why his KO% low?

Choynski on film was fast, and by news reads was skilled. If he had big time power, he should have more KO's, unless it was style and cautiousness.
If you disagree with Janitor's assessment ,how do you account for both Jeffries and Johnson stating that Choynslky was the hardest hitter the faced?
Choynsky kod Godfrey ,Maher ,and Childs all leading top liners of the time.
Many big punchers have a low % of kos ,Ike Williams eg.

[Mendoza]

If you disagree with Janitor's assessment ,how do you account for both Jeffries and Johnson stating that Choynslky was the hardest hitter the faced?
Choynsky kod Godfrey ,Maher ,and Childs all leading top liners of the time.
Many big punchers have a low % of kos ,Ike Williams eg.

I want to read Janitor's explanation. In almost all cases the best punchers in an era have high KO%. By the way, are you enjoying the poll?

[mcvey]

One of the hardest and most effective punchers that ever lived? Can you explain to me why his KO% low?

Choynski on film was fast, and by news reads was skilled. If he had big time power, he should have more KO's, unless it was style and cautiousness.

Further info for you.
Ko %'s
Bob Satterfield 44.3%
Lloyd Marshall 36%
Curtess Hatchet Man Sheppard 37.93%
Sugar Ray Robinson 54%
JOE CHOYNSKY 40.48%

Choynsky fought from 1887 till 1904 17 years its not surprising his % went down as he got older.
How many kos did Ali score in his last fights?
See? you can't get everything from old newpapers .:nono

[mcvey]

I want to read Janitor's explanation. In almost all cases the best punchers in an era have high KO%. By the way, are you enjoying the poll?
Yes I am ,but I didnt know how to set one up on my thread so I might not get many votes either way.
By the way two more big punchers with %'s comparable to Choynsky's [40.48%]
Peyer Maher 42%
Sam Langford 40.48%
Add Ike Williams 38.7%
Figures don't tell the whole story.
ps I found a link ,looking for something else that mentions that Corbett dropped Jeffries in sparring, I doubt this, but I can't find the link again.
Note Choynsky did not drop Jeffries,. despite hitting him with a right hand that Jeffries said was a bomb.
Its possible Jeffries had the best chin of any heavyweight,we will never know.

[TheGreatA]

Johnson was no more than a super middleweight himself at the time he fought Choynski. He weighed in at 168 lbs against Jim McCormick and the fight against Choynski was not long after that.

And yes, David Haye was knocked down and nearly stopped by a super middleweight journeyman Lolenga Mock.

[TheGreatA]

Choynski scored 34 knockouts in his 52 wins. That's a pretty good KO record for his era, especially considering that he fought many bigger men. He also won fights by DQ when his opponents fouled out as they were losing.

Some of the fights back in the day did not go more than 3-6 rounds. Who knows if he could have knocked out some of the opponents he went the distance with had the fights been scheduled for 12-20 rounds...

[GPater11093]

Once could be a freak event, but twice with one bing a KO loss?

as someone stated not for how many times he fought

and didnt he lose to the SMW by KO early in his career

The super middleweight was Joe Choynsky,among the men he kod was
Frank Childs
Jim Hall
Peter Maher
George Godfrey.
Jim Jeffries went on record as saying "the hardest punch I ever received was from Joe Choynsky "
In their 20 rd draw Choynsky smashed a right hand into Jeffries mouth ,so powerful it drove his tooth through his lip ,so far it had to be cut out with a knife.
You can check this out by googling Jeffries/ Choynsky and going to Wikipedia , the free encyclopedia, it also has a photo of Choynsky ,arms out stretched ,with Johnson standing behind him.The photo was taken by the Chicago Daily News, in 1909, 8 years after their 1901 fight.
The size difference is not that huge, imo,check for yourself.
Johnson was 6 1/4in Choynsky between 5 10 1/2 and 5 11 1/2in ,[ sources vary].Bear in mind Johnson was 8 years younger ,and still maturing physically when they fought.
Jeffries and Johnson BOTH called Choynsky the hardest puncher they fought.

thanks i knew he was regarded as a big hitter but thanks as that was informative

[janitor]

[quote=Mendoza;4227633]One of the hardest and most effective punchers that ever lived? Can you explain to me why his KO% low?


Firstly we dont actualy know what his KO% was because his record is partial and the part likley to be missing is the fights against lesser opposition that pad the KO%.

Secondly KO% is as much a function of the level of your typical opposition as how effectivley you punch. For example Bob Satterfield is routinely recognised as one of the hardest pound for pound punchers of all time but he has a low KO% because he fought more ranked contenders than Joe Louis.

[mcvey]

If a heavyweight is KO'd by a super middleweight and knocked down by another middleweight, do you think he has a suspect chin?

For the posters who have taken part in this poll ,I should like to correct something.The title states"If a Heavyweight is kod by a super middle weight".
etc
The Heavyweight in question was kod by the super middle weight in 1901, no argument about that.
However, in 1900 UNDER 10 MONTHS EARLIER to be exact,that "heavyweight scaled 168 lbs in a fight against Jim Mcormick.
So ,what we actually have is a fight between 2 SUPER MIDDLEWEIGHTS.
One of them a young fighter just starting out on his career,still learning ,still maturing mentally and physically.
The other a seasoned veteran of 64 fights against such men as .
Corbett
Fitz
Sharkey
Jeffries
O Donell
Hall
Martin
Walcott
McCoy
Childs
Denver Ed Smith
Godfey
Goddard
Creedon
Russell
Maher
Ruhlin.
In short a very big punching fighter of vast experience against a fighter just starting to make his way, in the biggest fight of his life.

So when you vote please bear this in mind.

[janitor]

For the posters who have taken part in this poll ,I should like to correct something.The title states"If a Heavyweight is kod by a super middle weight".
etc
The Heavyweight in question was kod by the super middle weight in 1901, no argument about that.
However, in 1900 UNDER 10 MONTHS EARLIER to be exact,that "heavyweight scaled 168 lbs in a fight against Jim Mcormick.
So ,what we actually have is a fight between 2 SUPER MIDDLEWEIGHTS.
One of them a young fighter just starting out on his career,still learning ,still maturing mentally and physically.
The other a seasoned veteran of 64 fights against such men as .
Corbett
Fitz
Sharkey
Jeffries
O Donell
Hall
Martin
Walcott
McCoy
Childs
Denver Ed Smith
Godfey
Goddard
Creedon
Russell
Maher
Ruhlin.
In short a very big punching fighter of vast experience against a fighter just starting to make his way, in the biggest fight of his life.

So when you vote please bear this in mind.

Here is the picture you aluded to.
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

[mcvey]

Here is the picture you aluded to.
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Thanks Janitor :good,of course the picture was taken 8 YEARS LATER, when Johnson had had time to mature physically into the 208lbs fighter he was in his prime.

[Mendoza]

Thanks Janitor :good,of course the picture was taken 8 YEARS LATER, when Johnson had had time to mature physically into the 208lbs fighter he was in his prime.

Johnson looks heavier, but strangely enough not taller in that photo.

[TommyV]

Johnson wasn't in his peak physical condition, he pretty much a super-middle himself at time he fought Choynski, who by the wway is an excellent puncher as mcvey has already said, and as other's have said, Ketchel wasn't a middle at the time of the Johnson fight. Besides, we are talking about naturally one of the hardest hitters of all-time. There's many a great HW he would of floored that night.