Prime Hector "Macho" Camacho vs Prime Pernell "Sweet Pea" Whitaker.

[PR Boxing Lore]

I always wanted to see this one, two of the best all time slick southpaw guys going at it. Light welterweight, let me know what you guys think. Thanks.

[lefthook31]

Camacho Sr was a great fighter, and another fighter whose talent was overlooked by his out of the ring shananagins. Close fight, still got to go with Whitaker. Camacho kind of looked ordinary against Chavez, where Pete schooled him, so based on that I gotta go with Whitaker even though the styles are so different, I just think Whitaker was a little slicker.

[acb]

Pea.

His defensive ability negates most of Camacho´s blazing handspeed. Anyone who has boxed knows that swinging at air takes tons of energy and slows fast fighters down.

Pernel UD.

[GazOC]

I always wanted to see this one, two of the best all time slick southpaw guys going at it. Maybe light welterweight or welterweight? Let me know what you guys think. Thanks.

The fight should be at Lightweight IMO. I'd go for Sweat Pea by UD.

[PR Boxing Lore]

Camacho Sr was a great fighter, and another fighter whose talent was overlooked by his out of the ring shananagins. Close fight, still got to go with Whitaker. Camacho kind of looked ordinary against Chavez, where Pete schooled him, so based on that I gotta go with Whitaker even though the styles are so different, I just think Whitaker was a little slicker.
Remember, when Camacho fought Chavez he was already on decline and had a lot of problems, still I go with you that Whitaker was a little more slicker.

[lefthook31]

The fight should be at Lightweight IMO. I'd go for Sweat Pea by UD.
Yes definitely lightweight.

[PR Boxing Lore]

It should have been a pretty interesting fight considering their styles and personalities.

[PR Boxing Lore]

Yeah, dunno what threadstarter was thinking putting it at 140 or 147 when Lightweight is clearly the best weight for the two to meet.
Thats right sorry about that.

[sues2nd]

Well, considering a pre-Olympics Pea outboxed a PEAK Camacho in his own gym, I'd say a prime Pea works him over pretty handily.

I was going to post this....but ya beat me to it.

[GazOC]

Well, considering a pre-Olympics Pea outboxed a PEAK Camacho in his own gym, I'd say a prime Pea works him over pretty handily.

Thats all rumour. I heard the session got stopped because Camacho was taking liberties with a green Whittaker.

[GazOC]

I'd like to have been a fly on the wall that afternoon. BTW I don't think Whittaker 'confirming' he schooled Camacho really means much...The other take on that scenario is that Sweet Pea got the better of the action early on because Camacho underestimated 'the kid', but then put his foot on the gas when he realized he was in against a decent fighter......

[pryorgatti]

Whitaker embarrasses him by UD

[sthomas]

Since it's a fantasy fight, I'll give two predictions:

1) The guys as they were in their prime, Whitaker wins by UD, but it would be a great fight if Camacho boxed intelligently.

2) The guys based on their natural talent and if (remember this is a fantasy fight), they lived up to their potential by training and living clean like true champions, not getting f'd up on booze and drugs and other negative outside the ring activities. That said, Camacho was one of if not the greatest talent I have ever seen, and he still had a fabulous early career despite himself. Considering his accomplishments it's hard to say, but I will, that he was a serious underachiever. Not to take anything away from Whitikars great legacy, but I would take Camacho by convincing UD in this scenario. Camacho could have been an all-time great, right up there with anyone. Reminds me of post Rooney Tyson

[PR Boxing Lore]

Camacho also defeated a younger Ramirez,Whitaker went 1-1 with him.I know it was a close fight but still he lost.

[sues2nd]

Camacho also defeated a younger Ramirez,Whitaker went 1-1 with him.I know it was a close fight but still he lost.

It wasnt a close fight at all. Its generally considered one of the worst robberies in the history of the sport. If you go watch the Ramirez fight (the first one...the robbery), you will see that it was closer to a shutout win for Pernell than it was to a close fight.

:good

[PR Boxing Lore]

YEAH I know but still is an official loss,anyway he gave him a beating in the second.

[paulfv]

Sweat Pea takes this in a very comfortable UD, IMO.

[brooklyn1550]

Pernell Whitaker UD12 Hector Camacho

[Sonny Carson]

Whitaker embarrasses him by UD
I wouldn't say he would embaress him but he would UD him. I think Camacho would give him a fight like McGirt did because his hands are quick enough to land some shot's.

[istmeno]

anyone who thinks either of these fighters takes a wide decision clearly has a bias. prime for prime this is a very close fight. prime 130 camacho was a once in a lifetime type of fighter. he had all of the tools sick speed, very good defense, good workrate, and above average power. he definitely imo put together some of the best combinations i have seen. pea good speed out of this world defense, decent pop, great work rate. bothe were great boxers.

speed - camacho
power - camacho
defense - pea
work rate - pea
technique - both very unorthodox, very gifted naturally and could get away with mistakes.

this is one helluva matchup, and honestly imo if they fought ten times you could have a different winner in each fight.

camacho ges downgraded alot based on his post rosario career, but at the top of his game, it is simply two great fighters who are very evenly matched.

[paulfv]

anyone who thinks either of these fighters takes a wide decision clearly has a bias. prime for prime this is a very close fight. prime 130 camacho was a once in a lifetime type of fighter. he had all of the tools sick speed, very good defense, good workrate, and above average power. he definitely imo put together some of the best combinations i have seen. pea good speed out of this world defense, decent pop, great work rate. bothe were great boxers.

speed - camacho
power - camacho
defense - pea
work rate - pea
technique - both very unorthodox, very gifted naturally and could get away with mistakes.

this is one helluva matchup, and honestly imo if they fought ten times you could have a different winner in each fight.

camacho ges downgraded alot based on his post rosario career, but at the top of his game, it is simply two great fighters who are very evenly matched.

I am definitely not a big Sweat Pea fan, to say the least. But being objective, I just can't see Camacho hanging with him to keep the fight any more close than about 3-4 points, at best. Pea could have made Macho miss all day long and consistently countered him, IMO.

I respect Camacho, just not as much as I respect Pea. I could be wrong, but this is how I see the fight playing out between the two.

[PR Boxing Lore]

anyone who thinks either of these fighters takes a wide decision clearly has a bias. prime for prime this is a very close fight. prime 130 camacho was a once in a lifetime type of fighter. he had all of the tools sick speed, very good defense, good workrate, and above average power. he definitely imo put together some of the best combinations i have seen. pea good speed out of this world defense, decent pop, great work rate. bothe were great boxers.

speed - camacho
power - camacho
defense - pea
work rate - pea
technique - both very unorthodox, very gifted naturally and could get away with mistakes.

this is one helluva matchup, and honestly imo if they fought ten times you could have a different winner in each fight.

camacho ges downgraded alot based on his post rosario career, but at the top of his game, it is simply two great fighters who are very evenly matched.
Good post, I really think Camacho had a rare set of natural abilities that we don't usually see, what would he had acomplished if he had a more discipline life, we will never know.The same can be said for Whitaker.

[dave82]

id go with Whitaker UD12. 116-112

[Olander]

It wasnt a close fight at all. Its generally considered one of the worst robberies in the history of the sport. If you go watch the Ramirez fight (the first one...the robbery), you will see that it was closer to a shutout win for Pernell than it was to a close fight.

:good

Very true. And the scorecards DISAPPEARED immediately after the fight. Total robbery.

Whitaker over Camacho in a near shutout.

[PR Boxing Lore]

Very true. And the scorecards DISAPPEARED immediately after the fight. Total robbery.

Whitaker over Camacho in a near shutout.
Win maybe, shutout never.

[Olander]

Win maybe, shutout never.

11-1 or 10-2 is quite likely. :deal

[joito3]

Nobody shuts out a prime 130 lb camacho nobody

[ripcity]

Whitaker would win but it would not be as easy as some think. The hardest thing to beat in boxing is speed and Camacho had speed. Whitaker 8 rounds Camacho 3 rounds 1 round even.

[PR Boxing Lore]

Exactly!:good I think a lot of these guys haven't seen footage of Camacho in his "prime" pre-Rosario. It was a thing of beauty.
:good

[PR Boxing Lore]

Whitaker would win but it would not be as easy as some think. The hardest thing to beat in boxing is speed and Camacho had speed. Whitaker 8 rounds Camacho 3 rounds 1 round even.
Prime Camacho, come on.:rofl

[PR Boxing Lore]

8 rounds to 3?! Hate to break it to ya, but you don't know shit about the sport of boxing.
Exactly:D

[PATSYS]

Whitaker, easy UD.

[cpnasty]

Both were very skillfull but I'll say Whitaker by UD

[PR Boxing Lore]

Whitaker, easy UD.
:patsch

[Olander]

Exactly!:good I think a lot of these guys haven't seen footage of Camacho in his "prime" pre-Rosario. It was a thing of beauty.

I don't have to resort to watching "footage" of a prime Camacho. I saw it live on TV when it actually happened!

I stand by my original assessment. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

[PR Boxing Lore]

I don't have to resort to watching "footage" of a prime Camacho. I saw it live on TV when it actually happened!

I stand by my original assessment. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
Your original assessment was a shutout, either you didn't watch prime Camacho or you don't know boxing. All experts know that prime Camacho was one of a kind.

[Olander]

Your original assessment was a shutout, either you didn't watch prime Camacho or you don't know boxing. All experts know that prime Camacho was one of a kind.

:patsch

[PR Boxing Lore]

:patsch
:huh

[PR Boxing Lore]

He said 8-3 with one even.

Once again, considering a pre-Olympics pre-pro Whitaker supposedly ********* a PEAK, pre-Rosario Camacho in his own gym according to none other than Manny Steward(before Camacho started getting dirty because of his frustration), I would be inclined to believe a prime Whitaker works him over.
Only rumors, sparring doesn't mean anything.

[brooklyn1550]

Your original assessment was a shutout, either you didn't watch prime Camacho or you don't know boxing. All experts know that prime Camacho was one of a kind.

Camacho was one of the all around fastest fighters I have ever seen, but he was no Pernell Whitaker.

[PR Boxing Lore]

Camacho was one of the all around fastest fighters I have ever seen, but he was no Pernell Whitaker.
I didn't said that he was or wasn't better,I just told that guy that because Pernell giving Camacho a shutout is impossible,if Pernell was better that's open to debate.

[Titan1]

At 140, Whitaker takes it by UD.If this was the Camacho of 130 land, I might go the other way.He was a toughter fighter at the lighter weight.

[Titan1]

Whitaker never fought at 130, this fight would be no lower than 135. And no he was certainly not tougher, you just don't seem to know shit about Whitaker.

Whitaker was a great fighter, but flawed in minor areas,, I could definitely see Camacho beating him at a lighter weight if focused.

[Titan1]

Not the fastest fighter, didn't take the greatest punch, to mention two.

[redrooster]

Thats all rumour. I heard the session got stopped because Camacho was taking liberties with a green Whittaker.

That's right. I told you Pea that I already read that article and you ignored it altogether then you criticize because I rank Hector higher. I was there from the beginning when Hector made his tv debut on cbs. Where were you?

No way does Pernell stay close to Hector on thescorecards. He's a hector wannabe that came in after Hector left his impression on the sport.

So he wanted to make sport of Hector in a sparring session-Pernell's big moment. Have you ever thought Hector took it easy on the amateur for fear he might kill him? From what I read, Pernell came back for more after turning pro and his own people stopped it because Hector was raping his young ass in the gym.

I could tell Hector looked up to him with his dirty style of fighting but he took his act fom Hector, the master of dirty tricks like the fighters from the 20's and 40's. Whatever hs displayed, he took from Hector but you don't know because you haven't seen enough of him. and Hector had twice the speed-no one decisions Camacho.

[dave82]

That's right. I told you Pea that I already read that article and you ignored it altogether then you criticize because I rank Hector higher. I was there from the beginning when Hector made his tv debut on cbs. Where were you?

No way does Pernell stay close to Hector on thescorecards. He's a hector wannabe that came in after Hector left his impression on the sport.

So he wanted to make sport of Hector in a sparring session-Pernell's big moment. Have you ever thought Hector took it easy on the amateur for fear he might kill him? From what I read, Pernell came back for more after turning pro and his own people stopped it because Hector was raping his young ass in the gym.

I could tell Hector looked up to him with his dirty style of fighting but he took his act fom Hector, the master of dirty tricks like the fighters from the 20's and 40's. Whatever hs displayed, he took from Hector but you don't know because you haven't seen enough of him. and Hector had twice the speed-no one decisions Camacho.

That post is as intelligent as your 'Ray Leonard was overrated' thread:hi:

[Sonny Carson]

Not the fastest fighter, didn't take the greatest punch, to mention two.
Didn't take the greatest punch? Than why couldn't Trinidad KO him.

[redrooster]

I'm not the only one that has seen that report. I don't know where you got your report from but I never came across it.

I know two others who just last week gave you the same story as me. My words are living truth itself.

I'm sure Pernell did look up to Hector because while Pernell was toiling as an amateur, Hector was world champion so it's only natural to want to test him. It's a gesture of respect.

[redrooster]

The story everyone has heard, except of course you because you didn't want to, was of a young, pre-pro Whitaker schooling Camacho in his own gym, jet-lagged and all, and afterwards Camacho tried to get all rough and play dirty because he was getting frustrated. This is from Manny Steward, back by Whitaker.

I've NEVER heard your version told, except by you, and brownpimp88 backed you because he has always thought Camacho would be a good fight for Whitaker and he hates having his opinions cast aside.

Apparantly BrownPimp knows the history. Gazoc also backed me and both of them are more reputable than myself. So...how could three people agree to the same thing unless we all saw it? Why would we lie?

[dave82]

Apparantly BrownPimp knows the history. Gazoc also backed me and both of them are more reputable than myself. So...how could three people agree to the same thing unless we all saw it? Why would we lie?

So Manny Stewart and Whitaker are liars?

[Titan1]

Yeah, he probably wasn't THE absolute fastest fighter ever, but I don't see how not being #1 all time at something make it even a minor flaw, considering he was amazingly quick with inhuman reflexes.

He took a great punch, most of his KD's were due to being off-balance more than anything. If a shot, crack addict, old Pea can take everything a bigger, prime Tito throws at him while FIGHTING him the whole time, his chin should not even be questioned, nor his heart.

And again, you believe Camacho, who Pea schooled when he was an amateur against a prime Camacho, would beat Pea at 135?

He definitely has a shot, especially if his head on right.Camacho above 135 and Camacho at 135 and under were two different animals.

[PR Boxing Lore]

Apparantly BrownPimp knows the history. Gazoc also backed me and both of them are more reputable than myself. So...how could three people agree to the same thing unless we all saw it? Why would we lie?
Well if they say they saw it,we got to take their word for it, I would like to see that if you have any info on it let me know.

[GazOC]

Well if they say they saw it,we got to take their word for it, I would like to see that if you have any info on it let me know.
I'll be perfectly honest, I'm not 100% sure but in the pre-Internet days I was reading a lot of boxing magazines (too many TBH) so I'd guess I'd have read it there. I'd have thought the same basic 'facts' could have been reported a number of ways depending on the slant the writer wanted to put on the piece.

Either Sweet Pea schooled Camacho who then started fouling and the sparring was stopped or Camacho took it easy at first sparring with an amateur but realized he was up against a decent opponent and started to dominate Whittaler using 'pro tricks' and the sparring was stopped because of that.

Both stories fit the basic facts.....I don't put too much store in Whittaker confirming he schooled Camacho, he's bound to say that.

[Guru_Too_You]

Prime Camacho and Prime Duran are the only fighters in the last 30 or so years that I would consider a pick'em against Whitaker at 135.

The only two.

[PR Boxing Lore]

I'll be perfectly honest, I'm not 100% sure but in the pre-Internet days I was reading a lot of boxing magazines (too many TBH) so I'd guess I'd have read it there. I'd have thought the same basic 'facts' could have been reported a number of ways depending on the slant the writer wanted to put on the piece.

Either Sweet Pea schooled Camacho who then started fouling and the sparring was stopped or Camacho took it easy at first sparring with an amateur but realized he was up against a decent opponent and started to dominate Whittaler using 'pro tricks' and the sparring was stopped because of that.

Both stories fit the basic facts.....I don't put too much store in Whittaker confirming he schooled Camacho, he's bound to say that.
Guess well never know until an article about that appears, thanks.

[PR Boxing Lore]

Prime Camacho and Prime Duran are the only fighters in the last 30 or so years that I would consider a pick'em against Whitaker at 135.

The only two.
Duran vs Whitaker another great fight.:good

[Guru_Too_You]

Whitaker shuts out the Macho Man in an easy 12-round decision. Camacho was very good - Whitaker is an ATG. That's the difference here.

You definitely need to re-visit a young Camacho.

[PR Boxing Lore]

[QUOTE=Flabby Gut]Whitaker shuts out the Macho Man in an easy 12-round decision. Camacho was very good - Whitaker is an ATG. That's the difference here.[/QUOTE:patsch Shutout, another crazy man.

[Caper]

Tough fight to pick, both men had some of the greatest pure talent I'd ever seen. Hector's image spoiled a lot faster than Pea's thus clouding the minds of many fight fans. Pea also lost his luster due to activities outside the ring. Its a pure shame some fighters are just so good they feel they can stand to lose a couple days of training or get trashed a couple nights a week. I think both men fell pray to the lusts and ills of this fabricated world thus causing them literally shit away their great potential. At 135lbs Pea wins a contraversial SD that could have gone either way and will in a rematch with Camacho pressing more action by using his greater ring cutting skills. This leads to a trilogy with Pea winning a UD by using effective countering and staying away from pocket exchanges that seem to lean towards Hector in the judges eyes. :smoke

[joito3]

fact is if these guys crossed paths at 135 lbs we would have seen some of the finest fights of all time ! two southpaws ... fastest fighter i've ever seen in camacho and greatest defensive master in whitaker .... they would have been close fights !

I could see if they fought 3 times that each guy would have at least 1 victory under his belt but there would be no shutouts like the pea nuthuggers are claiming

[PR Boxing Lore]

fact is if these guys crossed paths at 135 lbs we would have seen some of the finest fights of all time ! two southpaws ... fastest fighter i've ever seen in camacho and greatest defensive master in whitaker .... they would have been close fights !

I could see if they fought 3 times that each guy would have at least 1 victory under his belt but there would be no shutouts like the pea nuthuggers are claiming
:good well said.

[PR Boxing Lore]

Tough fight to pick, both men had some of the greatest pure talent I'd ever seen. Hector's image spoiled a lot faster than Pea's thus clouding the minds of many fight fans. Pea also lost his luster due to activities outside the ring. Its a pure shame some fighters are just so good they feel they can stand to lose a couple days of training or get trashed a couple nights a week. I think both men fell pray to the lusts and ills of this fabricated world thus causing them literally shit away their great potential. At 135lbs Pea wins a contraversial SD that could have gone either way and will in a rematch with Camacho pressing more action by using his greater ring cutting skills. This leads to a trilogy with Pea winning a UD by using effective countering and staying away from pocket exchanges that seem to lean towards Hector in the judges eyes. :smoke
You even imagined a trilogy,great.:good

[Caper]

I didn;t understand the bolded part, who wins?

And how are you gonna say that Pea would be running from Hector in any way and staying away from pocket exchanges? He stayed in the pocket with bigger, stronger, harder hitting, better inside fighters than Hector and beat them. He often became the stalker in his fights as well, no way in hell he runs from Macho. In fact if anyone is the aggressor it's Pea for sure.

Relax.....your making me think you are somehow impartial towards Swea :yep

Pea wins the final bout, I'm not saying Pea would be afraid to exchange I'm saying he would lose the majority of exchanges in the pocket with Hector, just my opinion. Can't knock me for that.

[Caper]

I don't see how really though, considering he proved himself to be a far better inside fighter than Macho. And again, I don't see how you would say he is the one backing up, he showed on many occasions that he is capable of pressing a fight, unlike Camacho, and hit with better accuracy. I just don't see the fight playing like you say.

Pre Rosario Macho banged away while also showing fast hands and quick reflexes.....Hector would not fear Pea's power and would gladly exchange. while Pea was accurrate he sometimes focused to much on the dodge aspect of his game and less on the tag which is what cost him some contraversial decisions in his career.

Plus in all honesty you are pretty biased towards Pea so I can't blame you for not seeing the fight playing out as I may see it. I was a fan of both guys and enjoyed watching them fight, I have given Pea the benefit of the doubt yet you still can't even picture another pro fighter even giving Pea a tough time....this goes beyond boxing and more on the lines of obsession :yep :D

[Caper]

No, it has nothing to do with that, it has to do with the fact that Pea was a much better fighter than Camacho in every aspect. I asked you simple questions, such as how is Camacho gonna win the exchanges on the inside(which you gave no reasons for) and you tried to turn it into a debate over obsessing over fighters, when nothing I said suggested anything of the sort, you're just being a prick because you have no good points. I wouldn't say Pea would have any trouble with Mancini, and he's a pro, what does being pro matter?. Pea is my favorite fighter, but I am not unrealistic at all, I pick at least a few over him at WW, but none I would favor over him at 135 or 140, though some could very well be even bets or pick up a W.

I asked questions, you answered none, what Pea has proven Hector never did, in his prime he was faster and not as much of a runner, that's it, he was never as good on the inside, that has nothing to do with being a Pea fan, that's common sense, and Pea was certainly the better stalker and more accurate. You saying Pea got too caught up in dodging proves YOU in fact are the one who doesn't know much about him, and are likely just referencing his match with DLH, as he regularly threw 100+ punches per round in his prime. He was not a defensive fighter, he just had great defense, if that makes sense.

I most def answered your questions you are just looking for a more suitable response that fits into your fine tuned image of this hypthetical match up. I like you so I will reiterate: Pre Rosario Hectore would gladly exchange and win most of the pocket exchanges because of his superior hand speed and superior power. Pea was great in the pocket but he was more of a counter puncher taking advantage of those less adept to recovering from initiating an exchange. Hector had extremely fast hands and would showcase them during the pocket action, if Chavez connected with shots so would Hector with more flash less power.

Again relax, Swea is an ATG no doubt but he was vulnerable. Sorry to tell you but he actually bleeds just like you and me. ;)

[Caper]

You saying Pea got too caught up in dodging proves YOU in fact are the one who doesn't know much about him, and are likely just referencing his match with DLH, as he regularly threw 100+ punches per round in his prime. He was not a defensive fighter, he just had great defense, if that makes sense.

:lol:

I don't know much about who.....Swea Pea???? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Come on man don't insult my fight game intellegence....just because I don't know the color of his favorite jock strap in now was justifies me not knowing about Pea. I know him and plenty other fighters....trust me :smoke

Just because your ass throws 100, 200, 300 punches a round does not mean your throwing effective punches.....there is a difference. Like I mentioned earlier his most effective attack was that of the counter.

Fuck the DLH fight I thought Pea at least deserved a draw.....

[PR Boxing Lore]

You're gonna insult me for having a favorite fighter and throw off all my arguments as nut-huggery, but claim this?

Again, this is what makes me think you don't know much Pea. He was very effective as a counter-puncher, but his jab was among the very best in history as well, and he was constantly pushing it in his opponents face, and would counter off of that. He was pushing the offense, forcing his opponents to go on the offense, so he would be in another position to land a punch.
Ok Pea wins,:lol: happy

[darkdestroyer]

anyone who thinks either of these fighters takes a wide decision clearly has a bias. prime for prime this is a very close fight. prime 130 camacho was a once in a lifetime type of fighter. he had all of the tools sick speed, very good defense, good workrate, and above average power. he definitely imo put together some of the best combinations i have seen. pea good speed out of this world defense, decent pop, great work rate. bothe were great boxers.

speed - camacho
power - camacho
defense - pea
work rate - pea
technique - both very unorthodox, very gifted naturally and could get away with mistakes.

this is one helluva matchup, and honestly imo if they fought ten times you could have a different winner in each fight.

camacho ges downgraded alot based on his post rosario career, but at the top of his game, it is simply two great fighters who are very evenly matched.


Great post. I still can't pick a clear winner although i lean slightly towards sweet pea.

Great fantasy matchup Lore!

[dave82]

Ok Pea wins,:lol: happy

Regardless of who wins, Great thread Lore.

[carras]

@ 135 it's a pick'em fight. anyone that says pea wins easily is just crazy or biased.

and I couldn't care less about whatever manny's lying mouth said.
I hate the sparring rumors that fighters, promoters or fans use to base their opinions.