Flynn KO's Dempsey--Ringside Report

[OLD FOGEY]

I phoned the Salt Lake City Public Library and asked for all their newspaper reports on the Jim Flynn-Jack Dempsey fight of February 13, 1917. A librarian, Michele Widera, was kind enough to send me xeroxes. One is easy to read. One in very poor condition. I begin with the one which is easy to read. I will post it in sections as I am typing it and so will waste less time if something goes wrong:

SALT LAKE TRIBUNE--February 14, 1917

JACK DEMPSEY FLATTENED OUT IN 25 SECONDS

Jim Flynn Makes Quick Work of It at Murray; Local Man Unprepared for Onslaught

Jack Dempsey of Salt Lake lasted about twenty-five seconds in his match with Jim Flynn of Pueblo last night at Murray.
During those twenty-five seconds Flynn punched Dempsey twice on the right side of the head, twice on the left side, broke down Jack's gaurd with his right and put the finishing touches on with a steaming wallop with his left to the jaw.
Dempsey was out half a minute. When he began to regain consciousness in his corner he evidently thought he was still in a pugilistic encounter, for he put up a strenuous battle with those who were trying to bring him around.
Although Dempsey well knew that it is Flynn's way to start from the instant the gong sounds, hurling himself into the fray with all the speed and strength of which he is possessed Jack apparently made no preparation to meet that first onslaught. He looked like a man dazed by the swiftness with which things moved, and he was as helpless before those two rushes of Flynn as though he were but a child.

Taken By Storm

Those who have seen Dempsey fight have always admired his ability to take punishment but usually the punishment came in the course of a battle, and to have it come all at once, like a bolt of lightning, was too much for the local scrapper. Perhaps Dempsey could have made a better showing had he been able to weather the going for three or four rounds, but he certainly was helpless before the tornado which caught him right at the start.
During the few seconds the fight lasted Flynn made two attacks. At the beginning he bent his head downward and bored in whaling away with both hands. Then there was a wee bit of a lull, during which the referee tried to do some separating and next came the onslaught with its two blow finish.

(end of part one--to be continued)

[OLD FOGEY]

Flynn ko's Dempsey--Salt Lake Tribune, Feb 14, 1917--Part 2

Happened To Jim Once

Flynn himself is no stranger to the lightning knockout. Along in 1907, when Flynn and Joe Walcott were matched in San Francisco almost the identical end was put to the fracas as that which occurred in Murray last night. In the San Francisco affair Walcott and Flynn had no sooner shaken hands and separated than the negro let fly with a haymaker which put Flynn out for about thirty minutes.
Prior to the appearance of the men, Kid Egan and Slim Murphy gave a poor exhibition in four rounds. They were followed by Johnny and Alex Bratton, 9-year-olds, who sparred three one-minute rounds, and furnished all the sport that was seen at Murray last night. Those midget twins are wonderfully clever, and whack away at each other with a lusty ardor. They are equipped with soft gloves, and there is no fear of damage to either.

A Tedious Wait

Following the Brattons the spectators settled themselves back for the main event. They they unsettled themselves because the main event didn't show up. For forty-five minutes the fans who had paid from $2 to $5 for seats waited with noisy impatience. The delay, it developed later, was due to financial arguments in the box office. During the tedious wait a couple of firemen gave a three-round exhibition, and a good one, at that.
Naturally the crowd was much disappointed at the speedy termination of the thing that was to have been a fifteen-round go, but none of them doubted that Flynn's whirlwind tactics gave the veteran an easy victory, and they charged their disappointment to profit and loss and let it go at that.
Ernie Wright of Murray was the referee in the preliminary bouts and Ralph Armstrong was the referee for that part of the main event which took place. Jim Stanley was the announcer and announced on such rare occasions as the crowd would allow him to talk.

(end of article--typed in full)

*on the firemen giving an exhibition--this bout was partially a benefit for a fund for firemen killed or injured in the line of duty.

[OLD FOGEY]

The second article, from the Deseret Evening News, is very difficult to decipher--I managed it only with a strong magnifying glass. Much of this article deals with the politics of the fight. The reporter claims the fight violated the law and scolds the sheriff for not stopping it, but it does contain a couple of excellent paragraphs describing the fight.

Deseret Evening News, Wednesday, February 14, 1917

FLYNN GETS KNOCKOUT OVER JACK DEMPSEY

Officers at Ringside Make No Effort to Enforce Law--Juveniles Allowed in Preliminary--Firemen Duped by Promoters--Staged as "Benefit."

In violation of the state statute the Jim Flynn-Jack Dempsey prize fight was staged last night in Murray, ending in a knockout when Flynn landed a terrific left to his opponent's jaw in the first round after 25 seconds of fierce fighting. Dempsey was insensible for several minutes and when brought back from the land of nod he evidently thought he was still in the prize ring and attempted to slug his seconds.

(the next two paragraphs deal with the legal issues this reporter raises and have nothing to do with the fight directly. Paragraph four returns to the fight)

During the time the men had been in the ring after shaking hands, Dempsey was hit twice on the left side of the head and twice on the right and the finish punch which closed the short but brutal contest between (illegible--I believe two words)
After being hit twice, Dempsey appeared dazed and he was helpless as a baby against the final rain of blows. Dempsey appeared ready to do battle at the opening gong, and rushed in with all his speed but the hammer punches ended his aspirations to be a winner.

(The reporter then returns to the theme of the fight being illegal. This is the concluding paragraph)

Sheriff John S Corliss said that while he was not there himself a number of his deputies were. The sheriff said he had instructed his men to stop the fight if it became brutal or if it assumed the phase of a prize fight in violation of the law. The reports he had recieved were to the effect that the affair was over so soon that there was no time to decide as to the merits of the contest and his deputies had told him they had no time to take action. Whether or not it was a violation of the law, he was unable to say.

(You can see the weird twilight zone area boxing occupied in that era. Thousands attended the fight. The trolleys ran extra cars to bring fans to the fight and take them home. It was partially a benefit for the fire department, although this reporter complains that the firemen only got $250 our of a $5000 gate. The sheriff lets it go on and gives out a classic "political" comment covering his own ass no matter what side of the fence you were on)

[OLD FOGEY]

I also asked the library for any reports they had leading up to the fight and any on the fight or any controversy it stirred in the days after the fight. There was a preview on Feb 13, 1917 in the Salt Lake Tribune. It takes up a full column. It contains a couple paragraphs on the two sides agreeing to Frank Armstrong as a referee, comments by the promoter on the expected gate, and how extra trolleys would run to transport the crowds, and predictions by the two fighters.

Flynn said last night "I wish I could be as positive of everything else in the future as I am that I am going to win this battle." He is so sure of victory that he is ever ready to back up his belief with some spare change. "That's gotten to be my business of late--teaching these young fellows boxing lessions," he concluded.

Dempsey is not inclined to boast, but considers himself faster than Flynn and as having a better punch. He points to the fact that he stood up before sluggers like Wild Bert Kenney, John Lester Johnson and others and that therefore he is not worrying about Flynn's attack. "Stepping stones, that's what you call them, isn't it? Well, that's what this bout is going to be for me tonight," said Dempsey.

(The only real prefight analysis is in this paragraph)

Young Peter Jackson, a good judge of boxing, who has trained with both men, predicts a great battle and advises Flynn not to take Dempsey too lightly. Although he worked with Flynn for this go, he likes Dempsey's chances and says a great deal will depend on how good Flynn is today and how much much punishment Dempsey can stand and combat against.

The librarian informed me that "There was no mention of the fight in either newspaper after February 14, 1917."-----there does not seem to have been much post-fight controversy in Salt Lake City.

[LeonMcS]

Interesting read, thanks OLD FOGEY.

[ChrisPontius]

Great research!!

I have only read the first article, gotta go now, but back to read the second later. There is no mention of a fix at all which to me says enough. The fix claims only dwelled to the questionable surface years after Dempsey broke into stardom, in the 20's.

p.s. i couldn't help but laugh at the notion that Flynn was willing to bet spare change on him winning, good old days. :lol:

[janitor]

On a side not the article makes refference to Flynn suffering a knockout loss at the hands of Barbados Joe Walcott which is not listed on boxrec.

[mcvey]

I also asked the library for any reports they had leading up to the fight and any on the fight or any controversy it stirred in the days after the fight. There was a preview on Feb 13, 1917 in the Salt Lake Tribune. It takes up a full column. It contains a couple paragraphs on the two sides agreeing to Frank Armstrong as a referee, comments by the promoter on the expected gate, and how extra trolleys would run to transport the crowds, and predictions by the two fighters.

Flynn said last night "I wish I could be as positive of everything else in the future as I am that I am going to win this battle." He is so sure of victory that he is ever ready to back up his belief with some spare change. "That's gotten to be my business of late--teaching these young fellows boxing lessions," he concluded.

Dempsey is not inclined to boast, but considers himself faster than Flynn and as having a better punch. He points to the fact that he stood up before sluggers like Wild Bert Kenney, John Lester Johnson and others and that therefore he is not worrying about Flynn's attack. "Stepping stones, that's what you call them, isn't it? Well, that's what this bout is going to be for me tonight," said Dempsey.

(The only real prefight analysis is in this paragraph)

Young Peter Jackson, a good judge of boxing, who has trained with both men, predicts a great battle and advises Flynn not to take Dempsey too lightly. Although he worked with Flynn for this go, he likes Dempsey's chances and says a great deal will depend on how good Flynn is today and how much much punishment Dempsey can stand and combat against.

The librarian informed me that "There was no mention of the fight in either newspaper after February 14, 1917."-----there does not seem to have been much post-fight controversy in Salt Lake City.

Good stuff, OF,it would appear the fight was legit, going by that report,an important find!

[Dempsey1238]

Dempsey out for half a min??? Impossible, we all know he had a chin made of steel lol.

One punch can do anything.

[Senya13]

There were two more next-day reports in Ogden Standard and in Salt Lake Telegram. I'm too lazy right now to re-type the second one, though.

1917-02-14 The Ogden Standard (Ogden, UT) (page 2)
DEMPSEY FLOORED BY JIM FLYNN
--------
'Knockout Drop' Comes in Twenty Seconds--Dempsey Gets No Chance at Pueblo Man.
--------
Salt Lake, Feb. 14.--Exit Dempsey! A "one-two" to the jaw was about all there was to the much-advertised battle at Murray last night. There was only one redeeming feature to the entire bout, and that was the fact that the dope books will carry down to posterity the information that Jim Flynn was engaged in one of the shortest bouts in history. The contest lasted twenty seconds and in that time Jack Dempsey never laid his glove on the "Pueblo trial horse." The men shook hands, Flynn put his head down and bored in. He got a left to Dempsey's face and had the local boy covering up and not knowing what to do. As Jack dropped his guard from his chin and peeked out, Jim put a right swing to the local boy's jaw, followed quickly with a right to the same spot, and Referee Ralph Armstrong counted ten. It was all over except hauling the "local pride" to his corner.

The entire show was handled in a way which has been characteristic in this vicinity for some time, the promoters "working" the public to a finish. There was the usual football rush to get in the single door to the hall--a good center rusher was sure of getting in--others had to sneak in.

The first preliminary between "Slim" Warden and Carl Ulgren went the scheduled four rounds to a draw. Neither man showed even curtain-raiser class.

The Bratten twins, Aleck and John, aged 10 years, put on three one-minute rounds which caused plenty of mirth and showed the crowd what kids can do when given an opportunity.

Then there was the long, lonesome heartbreaking wait of one whole hour, sixty weary minutes with nothing to do but drink soda pop and peddle chin goods. To break the monotony, after thirty minutes of waiting, two of the Murray firemen climbed into the ring and put up three rounds of good amateur milling. Another wait for fifteen minutes, and Ern Wright of Murray, who had refereed the preliminaries, put on the mitts and uttered a defi. One "Chick" McGillis, former boxer, stepped into the squared circle and donned the other pair. It was a draw, but McGillis crushed in his white collar, mussed his necktie and dirtied his cuffs, while Ern lost the part in his hair.

At the end of an hour the cheapest fiasco ever pulled in this locality was commenced. The next business man who surrenders real money to take in a bout "close in" will certainly demand that he get at least half his money's worth in preliminaries.

[Boilermaker]

On these reports it is not only hard to believe the fix stories, but also the hobo stories. By this time, it would seem that Dempsey was a good up and coming fighter considered to have a good chance. IF anything, the loss may seem a little worse than Johnson's loss to Choynski.

[ChrisPontius]

On these reports it is not only hard to believe the fix stories, but also the hobo stories. By this time, it would seem that Dempsey was a good up and coming fighter considered to have a good chance. IF anything, the loss may seem a little worse than Johnson's loss to Choynski.

Very much so.

In fact, i think there's a world of difference between the two.

Johnson fought Choynski in his 10th or so pro fight, which was more a "let's see this black man get knocked out" than a professional boxing match. He probably did not even weighin at the lightheavyweight limit. And got knocked out in 3. It would be a full seven years later until he won the title.

By constrast, Dempsey, was only ONE year away from his peak and two years away from winning the title. He was an established, name fighter, and weighed about 185lbs, which is very close to his prime weight, unlike Johnson.

[mcvey]

Very much so.

In fact, i think there's a world of difference between the two.

Johnson fought Choynski in his 10th or so pro fight, which was more a "let's see this black man get knocked out" than a professional boxing match. He probably did not even weighin at the lightheavyweight limit. And got knocked out in 3. It would be a full seven years later until he won the title.

By constrast, Dempsey, was only ONE year away from his peak and two years away from winning the title. He was an established, name fighter, and weighed about 185lbs, which is very close to his prime weight, unlike Johnson.

I'm a huge Dempsey fan ,but your points are well taken irrefutable

[Mendoza]

Very much so.

In fact, i think there's a world of difference between the two.

Johnson fought Choynski in his 10th or so pro fight, which was more a "let's see this black man get knocked out" than a professional boxing match. He probably did not even weighin at the lightheavyweight limit. And got knocked out in 3. It would be a full seven years later until he won the title.

By constrast, Dempsey, was only ONE year away from his peak and two years away from winning the title. He was an established, name fighter, and weighed about 185lbs, which is very close to his prime weight, unlike Johnson.

Johnson had 25+ fight under his belt before meeting Choynski. I agree the Flynn Ko over Dempsey is legit. If we look at Dempsey's career, he had some mixed results on the way up, then had a sudden rush of greatness jsut before he became champion. In fact I think some of Dempsey's most impressive wins happened just before the Willard fight.

[Bokaj]

On these reports it is not only hard to believe the fix stories, but also the hobo stories. By this time, it would seem that Dempsey was a good up and coming fighter considered to have a good chance.

My thoughts as well. He seemed well prepared enough. Hardly starving.

Good stuff, Fogey!

[ChrisPontius]

I'm a huge Dempsey fan ,but your points are well taken irrefutable

Honest man. :good

I will say that it's not be all end all. Dempsey, if i remember correct, was fighting at least every month, sometimes against worthy opponents, sometimes not, but it's bound to go wrong sometimes. In that sense there are softening circumstances, but not something that can be forgotten (like Johnson-Choynksi), either.

[Ted Spoon]

Ted Spoon has never counted out the possibility of Dempsey losing out legitimately on this one, but what to do about the surrounding stories?

Did Dempsey really break his right hand in a bowling alley while picking up change? It's one of those close-nit episodes that sound too random to be false.

And at what weight do we take it? While this was just prior to his steam rolling in 1918, Jack was walking on a very tight wire before Kearn's and Deforrest came to his aid, often coming into fights very underfed with no time for training.

Whatever ever truly transpired was later wiped clean by Dempsey when he came back to knock Flynn out of the ring in 1.

[janitor]

Personaly I group dubious fights into yes, no and maybees.

This one for me is a maybee.

We can never know for sure whether Gans dived against McGovern for example.

The purpetrators usualy take the truth to the grave with them.

For Dempsey part he never claimed that he took a dive in this fight and he gave widely differing and contradictory acounts of the fight on seperate ocasions.

[he grant]

It seems clear cut ... a young Dempsey who dedicated a whole chapter in his book to "I shudda warmed up" got caught cold ... however, he claimed he was knocked down three times and kept getting up, kind of like Witherspoon v.s. Smith, not flattened cold for a minute ...

Great work on the coverage ...

[klompton]

"Ted Spoon has never counted out the possibility of Dempsey losing out legitimately on this one, but what to do about the surrounding stories?

Did Dempsey really break his right hand in a bowling alley while picking up change? It's one of those close-nit episodes that sound too random to be false.

And at what weight do we take it? While this was just prior to his steam rolling in 1918, Jack was walking on a very tight wire before Kearn's and Deforrest came to his aid, often coming into fights very underfed with no time for training.

Whatever ever truly transpired was later wiped clean by Dempsey when he came back to knock Flynn out of the ring in 1. "

"Personaly I group dubious fights into yes, no and maybees.

This one for me is a maybee.

We can never know for sure whether Gans dived against McGovern for example.

The purpetrators usualy take the truth to the grave with them.

For Dempsey part he never claimed that he took a dive in this fight and he gave widely differing and contradictory acounts of the fight on seperate ocasions. "



Whatever...

Every fighter who loses has an excuse and if hes popular enough as Dempsey was a portion of his fans will always accept those excuses.

As for Gans-McGovern anyone who has seen the complete, unedited film of that fight, and who has done research on it, AND who either isnt biased in some form or has their head planted firmly up their ass can tell that fight is a dive.

[Hank]

I don't think it was a fix. Years ago I read book by Dempsy's daughter (good book) Her account sounded right. At time of fight, Dempsey was still inexperienced, and came into ring cold, not warmed up. Flynn jumped on him right away, and according to her, fight was stopped by Dempsey's brother (Which is not true if article posted is genuine) Dempsey did ko Flynn in 1st round of rematch, and stayed undefeated till Tunney fight 10 years later. Who knows, maybe it was a fix, I don't think so, but none of us will ever know.

[OLD FOGEY]

I don't think it is difficult to understand why Dempsey's story did not square with the facts as presented by the ringside report. Dempsey was knocked out. He did not remember the fight. His version is a what he thought had happened. He attacked his brother Bernie in the corner while still in a daze. Bernie probably told him he threw in the towel to calm Jack down and make him feel better, or at least left Jack think that Bernie had thrown in the towel.

Dempsey told his honest version of the fight in later years. His daughter obviously was not there and simply retold Dempsey's version.

[PowerPuncher]

Dempsey probably lunged in and missed like he did against Firpo and got KTFO for his trouble. Its happens in boxing, happened to Lennox against McCall

[OLD FOGEY]

The "controversy" over this fight reminds me of the old John Wayne-Jimmy Stewart movie THE MAN WHO SHOT LIBERTY VALANCE. When the reporter is told the truth at the end, he ignores it with the comment "When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."

The Dempsey legend became fact in the 1920's. Many "historians" and fans are simply printing the legend.

[spittle8]

I'm starting to think this was no dive.

I don't think it's particularly scandalous or damning that a young Dempsey who fought frequently, perhaps was unprepared and had no amateur experience fought a veteran who threw all his eggs in one basket and made an omelette out of Jack. I wouldn't hold it against him, Jack was an undeniably incredible talent, IMO perhaps the best athlete the division has seen after Ali and his rise to the top was stormy. You can hardly hold a loss like this against him.

[guilalah]

If it was a fake it was a darn good one. I'm not going to wrack my brain on deciding this one. I do appreciate people doing good spade work to dig up these accounts.

[Legend X]

Great thread.
I don't think this fight was fixed. It might have been, but you can say that about most fights.

Flynn probably taught Dempsey something. Going by the reports, he seems to have "out-Dempseyed" Dempsey with a fast aggressive start. That seems reasonable.

Interesting that Flynn was said to have fought Walcott. A walcott-Flynn fight is absent from the record books.

[lufcrazy]

The more research done, the more clearer the picture becomes.

Dempsey was not only sparked in thsi fight, but probably a few others under different names.

His chin never realy improved, but he did work a lot on his reflexes and head movement as a means of defence.

Basically if the guy gets walloped flush there's a chance he's getting knocked down and quite possibly out.

[lufcrazy]

Woah, barbados joe walcott knocked out Flynn in one round?

Any other evidence of that fight taking place?

[Legend X]

Dempsey was not only sparked in thsi fight, but probably a few others under different names.


What research suggests that ?

[lufcrazy]

What research suggests that ?

The more you look into his early fights, the guy was a hobo fighting whoever he could to make ends meet. this fight wasn't a one off, I just ahven't been able to prove it yet :-(

[Foreman Hook]

The more research done, the more clearer the picture becomes.

Dempsey was not only sparked in thsi fight, but probably a few others under different names.

His chin never realy improved, but he did work a lot on his reflexes and head movement as a means of defence.

Basically if the guy gets walloped flush there's a chance he's getting knocked down and quite possibly out.

XPERT-post m8.:thumbsup

[Legend X]

The more research done, the more clearer the picture becomes.

Dempsey was not only sparked in thsi fight, but probably a few others under different names.

The more you look into his early fights, the guy was a hobo fighting whoever he could to make ends meet. this fight wasn't a one off, I just ahven't been able to prove it yet :-(



So, what have you found by looking into his early fights that suggests he was sparked out under different names ?

(Everyone knows he was a hobo. :lol:)

[Seamus]

Seamus has reviewed multiple sources on this bout and concluded the evidence to reverse what the record states is flimsy and anecdotal. Seamus takes the record, backed with newspaper accounts, innocent until proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[lufcrazy]

Seamus has reviewed multiple sources on this bout and concluded the evidence to reverse what the record states is flimsy and anecdotal. Seamus takes the record, backed with newspaper accounts, innocent until proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt.

the people's revolutionary record has spoken!

dempsey evt1 flynn

[guilalah]

Thanks again, Old Fogey and Senya for the reports.