Tua Versus Marciano

[Hydraulix]

Who takes it? I'm pulling for Tua in this one. Too big and fast for Rocky. And even if the Rock had the chin to take Tua's shots, his tendency to cut would be another disadvantage.

[Russell]

Could go either way. Tua did NOT like it to the body and could be detered that way, or by serious firepower like Lennox showed. Marciano however was impossible to deter, so if he hurts/shocks Tua (Which he almost surely would) Tua's not going to be throwing bombs back like Marciano.

[dezbeast]

This matchup is so laughable I'm not going to comment. I'll just say that Tua wins.

[OBCboxer]

David "Almost as overrated as Corrie Sanders" Tua has no chance in hell to beat the Rock. Rock beats him soundly inside where Tua fights.

[djanders]

Rocky by decision...in my opinion.

[janitor]

I am not one to make confident picks in swarmer on swarmer matchups but if I have to put money down I will go with Marciano given that this is likley to turn on training ethic, intangibles , and yes..defence.

[Jear]

Could go either way. Tua did NOT like it to the body and could be detered that way, or by serious firepower like Lennox showed. Marciano however was impossible to deter, so if he hurts/shocks Tua (Which he almost surely would) Tua's not going to be throwing bombs back like Marciano.

Tua didnt get detered by the power of Ibeabuchi, Rahman I or Maskaev. He was still firing bombs late in those fights. Rocky isnt going to be able to avoid being hit the way they and Lewis did either.

As for Tuas lack of training ethic Janitor i think you are maybe refering to Tua after Barry took over and ruined him. David was a busy and disciplined fighter until he was under Kevin Barrys novice training

Id be interested to see how Marciano stands up to 12 rounds of Tua dishing out punches in the quantities he did when he was beating the likes of Wilson, Ruiz, Izon, Rahman and his record breaking fight with Ike

The easy pick is to say Rocky wins this, he is the greater fighter no doubt, but he isnt going to fight like Byrd or Lewis nor is he a 6'3" 235lb mad man.
Maybe it is my Kiwi bias but im not convinced that madman beat David anyway

[Russell]

Tua didnt get detered by the power of Ibeabuchi, Rahman I or Maskaev. He was still firing bombs late in those fights. Rocky isnt going to be able to avoid being hit the way they and Lewis did either.

As for Tuas lack of training ethic Janitor i think you are maybe refering to Tua after Barry took over and ruined him. David was a busy and disciplined fighter until he was under Kevin Barrys novice training

Id be interested to see how Marciano stands up to 12 rounds of Tua dishing out punches in the quantities he did when he was beating the likes of Wilson, Ruiz, Izon, Rahman and his record breaking fight with Ike

The easy pick is to say Rocky wins this, he is the greater fighter no doubt, but he isnt going to fight like Byrd or Lewis nor is he a 6'3" 235lb mad man.
Maybe it is my Kiwi bias but im not convinced that madman beat David anyway

Maybe because Maskaev was boxing him as opposed to slugging, and Ibeabuchi and Tua were trading shots from about 6 inches apart all night.

As for Rahman, he dropped Tua on his ass right after the bell in their second fight.

[DudeGuyMan]

I hate to say it, but if it's Tua on his best day I see him winning.

[Jear]

Maybe because Maskaev was boxing him as opposed to slugging, and Ibeabuchi and Tua were trading shots from about 6 inches apart all night.

As for Rahman, he dropped Tua on his ass right after the bell in their second fight.

Lewis boxed him too, are you saying coz Maskaev boxed him he wasnt hitting him hard? What difference is how far apart Ibeabuchi was? The fact remains Tua wasnt detered and didnt stop punching when he felt Ikes power as you stated he did when hit
Tua that fought Rahman the second time has no chance, i specified Rahman I as Tua was consistently in condition and busy in fights until around the Lewis fight after Lewis he still sparked Moorer and Oquendo but wasnt the same as he was in his run to a title shot

[Hydraulix]

I'd like to see how Rocky would take Tua's left hook. However, I think Tua might take the Suzy Q without going down. Both men had good chins. But I think Tua's left hook would be too much for the rock. Too fast and too strong. Too explosive.

[Sardu]

Rocky, although not as quick as men like Charles and Walcott, would be quicker and faster than the Tuaman. The Rock would get hurt early and taste the canvas. But unlike Ruiz and Moorer, Rocky's recuperative powers would allow him to survive. By about round seven or so Marciano starts to take over. He hurts Tua to the body. Tua's head is like a cinderblock and Rocky comments that it is the hardest thing he's ever hit in his life. Both of his hands are injured. An exhausted Tua makes it to the final bell in the 12th round. Tua does not go down although Marciano hit the canvas in the first. Both men express their admiration and respect for eachother. These are two class acts who eschew trash talking and other such nonsense leading up to the fight. Marciano is named the winner on the cards by a close but convincing UD.

Marciano by close UD.

[Sardu]

No one would have survived what Ruiz got hit with from Tua. I believe because of his height and moving his trunk the way he did Marciano would be able to avoid the kind of debilitating left hook that sealed Ruiz's fate.

[SuzieQ49]

Rocky by unanimous decision.

[SuzieQ49]

Lol once a stupid ass thread, there is no way hell that any 180 pound man could beat David Tua by trying to stand toe to toe with him. There is no freaking way that some 180 pound fighter could hurt David Tua. There is no way in hell some 180 pound fighter could make it out of one round using the style Rocky Marciano used. If you picked Marcinao to win then you are the most simple minded person who has ever lived. Stop making post here because we know what type of person you are .


David Tua by 1st round Murder

:rofl:rofl:rofl:lol::lol::lol:


REVOLVERMANIA

[clinikill]

...

[john garfield]

Lol once a stupid ass thread, there is no way hell that any 180 pound man could beat David Tua by trying to stand toe to toe with him. There is no freaking way that some 180 pound fighter could hurt David Tua. There is no way in hell some 180 pound fighter could make it out of one round using the style Rocky Marciano used. If you picked Marcinao to win then you are the most simple minded person who has ever lived. Stop making post here because we know what type of person you are .


David Tua by 1st round Murder

Don't waffle, KN. How do you really feel?

[young griffo]

No one would have survived what Ruiz got hit with from Tua. I believe because of his height and moving his trunk the way he did Marciano would be able to avoid the kind of debilitating left hook that sealed Ruiz's fate.
I doubt too many Heavies would be upright after tasting this ...

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

...so it's not as if Tua could just wade in swinging either.

Personally I think it would be a phone booth type of fight where Rocky's superior stamina,workrate,two fisted attack and body work would give him an edge on Tua over 15.

[bodhi]

Tua would win, definitely.

Rocky Marciano, as great as he was, is a product of the '50s. Boxing has evolved greatly since then.

What exactly did evolve? Please explain this claim.

[cuchulain]

Even Rocky's great chin would have difficulty dealing with the kind of shot Tua landed on Ruiz.

But I doubt he would land like that. Rocky's defence was sufficient to keep David from landing his best. And Tua would eat a lot of hard punches.

Rocky's bobbing style and awkward angles leads me to call this in his favour by a clear decision. If stamina plays much of a role ( and it could well do) over 15 rounds, I coulld also see Marciano stopping Tua.

[young griffo]

Tua would win, definitely.

Rocky Marciano, as great as he was, is a product of the '50s. Boxing has evolved greatly since then.
Aye,Sugar Ray Robinson and Ezzard Charles were only practicing a rough draft in the 50's of the perfected art form we're privileged to watch today.



[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Kalasinn]

Marciano by clear UD.


Oh and for anyone touting Tua's hand speed, he's not even close to the faster-than-Tyson superhuman you think he is and Rocky has the speed advantage.

[PowerPuncher]

Tua is faster, has the more proven chin, can perhaps work at just as fast a pace (I'll go onto explain these statements). People assume Marciano can outbox Tua because the 5'9 man was outboxed from the outside by 6'3'-6'6 with 80inch reaches, fast hands and excellent jabs. Since when has Rocky boxed in such a manner and since when does he have those physical advantages?

This would be a fight at close quarters. People talk about 'Rocky's underrated defense', well that may well be true, but he often got hit very clean quite often and Tua's speed and the lack of range between the 2 men would see him land the left hook often. Plus if Marciano took his usually tactic of going into a crouch, it wouldn't work against a 5'9 left hook bomber. Tua's defense is actually very underrated, excellent head movement, tight guard, good parrying. Tua's defense is the better of the 2 here I feel

As for 'Marciano being faster than Tua', well Tua's speed is underrated, it doesn't look fast sometimes because he has massive range disadvantages, but few HWs throw a left hook quicker. Tua's very explosive, Marciano has very good timing but hes not fast.

As for 'Marciano having the better stamina' well yes he does but Tua's output against Ibeaubuchi in his prime set punch stat records, nothing wrong with his stamina/workrate, thats pretty much a none factors

So as a fight its going to be toe-toe, mid range or inside type of fight. In this type of scenario we have to ask the question 'how will each man be able to take the other man's power'. Marciano has never fought anyone who hit nearly as hard as Tua and hes been down/hurt, has a smaller frame and physically weaker. This indicates he's going to have problems taking Tua's punches, most men in history would. Tua has taken the best punches from even bigger punches like Lewis, Ibeaubuchi, Maskeev, Rahman. Because of that I see Marciano being the 1 hurt and backed up and when you back up on Tua and hes coming for you with bombs and you're in trouble.

Marciano needs to somehow back Tua up, maybe he could use angles/pressure to back Tua up to take his power away, but I don't think he can. I think its toe-toe with Tua backing him up and stopping him somewhere around the mid rounds, maybe even early

[janitor]

Tua would win, definitely.

Rocky Marciano, as great as he was, is a product of the '50s. Boxing has evolved greatly since then.

How could you possibly look at David Tua and copnclude that he represented an evolutionary advance over Marciano?

[mcvey]

I am not one to make confident picks in swarmer on swarmer matchups but if I have to put money down I will go with Marciano given that this is likley to turn on training ethic, intangibles , and yes..defence.
I think it hinges on the size of their testicles, so I go for Rocky .Tua swallowed it against Lewis, imo.

[janitor]

I think it hinges on the size of their testicles, so I go for Rocky .Tua swallowed it against Lewis, imo.

I would be minded to give Marciano the edge based on consistency, work ethic and yes testicles.

I would not be shocked to get proven wrong however.

I do fancy that Marciano was harder to hit cleanly because he moved more.

[he grant]

Rocky uses his speed, defensive skill and jab to decision Tua ...

Can we be serious ? Tua early, very.

[Ramon Rojo]

Tua by KO

[clinikill]

...

[PowerPuncher]

I think it hinges on the size of their testicles, so I go for Rocky .Tua swallowed it against Lewis, imo.

And what would Marciano do different against LEwis, lunge in and get knocked out for his trouble? The sports called boxing not chicken

[The Mongoose]

And what would Marciano do different against LEwis, lunge in and get knocked out for his trouble? The sports called boxing not chicken


For one thing, he would probably value his shot at the title and not show up several pounds over his best weight.

[bodhi]

And what would Marciano do different against LEwis, lunge in and get knocked out for his trouble? The sports called boxing not chicken

Fighting small, making Lewis punch downward thus reducing his reach advantage and make him lean over to counter him. For example. I think size is for Lewis as hard to overcome as for Marciano in this fight.

[young griffo]

For one thing, he would probably value his shot at the title and not show up several pounds over his best weight.
And he'd at the very least, possess a better haircut than Tua did as well.

[PowerPuncher]

Fighting small, making Lewis punch downward thus reducing his reach advantage and make him lean over to counter him. For example. I think size is for Lewis as hard to overcome as for Marciano in this fight.

The crouch leaves you open to other punches, like uppercuts. And yes his 67inch reach and amazing speed is going to see him counter over LEwis's 82inch treble jab :patsch

Marciano wouldn't do better than Tua against Lewis and may not well make it out the first if Lewis starts fast

[PowerPuncher]

For one thing, he would probably value his shot at the title and not show up several pounds over his best weight.

You mean by giving up around 50-60lbs in lean body mass? Great strategy

[janitor]

And what would Marciano do different against LEwis, lunge in and get knocked out for his trouble? The sports called boxing not chicken

Basicaly yes.

He would press the fight and force matters one way or the other.

[janitor]

Tua has a considerable size advantage over Marciano, and (IMO) has more power. I think Tua would completely overwhelm the smaller-framed Marciano.

If by considerable size advantage you mean he was carrying a lot more body fat then you are absolutely correct.

Beyond that the size difference is not as great as you think. Tua would be the first opponent that Marciano had faced who did not have a significant advantage over him in terms of height or reach.

I happen to think that Tua did hit a bit harder but in all technical aspects of the game Marciano was better.

[TommyV]

So Tua beats Frazier and Marciano now? I take it the gulf in class and technical ability is being thrown out the window for these match-ups, and we are relying on 'Tua has a better chin because he's never been done and has more power' myth?

[SuzieQ49]

I love Tua, but he is starting to get overrated. Tua does not beat any ATG fighter, regardless of styles. All 3 of the best Swarmers Dempsey, Frazier, Marciano beat Tua. I still think highly of Tua. He is just nowhere near good enough to be picked over any All Time Great. I love his late clutch power, it's awesome.

[The Mongoose]

You mean by giving up around 50-60lbs in lean body mass? Great strategy


So Tua's master plan was to not train for his title fight, gain 20 lbs of fat, and seduce Lewis with his mighty man boobs? Now thats a great strategy.

He got his long awaited title shot and couldn't even bother to give himself a chance by getting in decent shape. He didn't train, plodded around the ring in his shell, tried a few hooks, called it a day. So yes, I think a fit 185 lb Marciano who would do anything to win, would probably do a bit better. Lose or knocked out, he would give a better account of himself.

[bodhi]

I love Tua, but he is starting to get overrated. Tua does not beat any ATG fighter, regardless of styles. All 3 of the best Swarmers Dempsey, Frazier, Marciano beat Tua. I still think highly of Tua. He is just nowhere near good enough to be picked over any All Time Great. I love his late clutch power, it's awesome.

Understatement of the year.

[Tin_Ribs]

So Tua beats Frazier and Marciano now? I take it the gulf in class and technical ability is being thrown out the window for these match-ups, and we are relying on 'Tua has a better chin because he's never been done and has more power' myth?

This.

Tua gets more mileage from sparking Ruiz and going blow-for-blow with Ibeabuchi than what the porn trade got from Ron Jeremy.

[mcvey]

And what would Marciano do different against LEwis, lunge in and get knocked out for his trouble? The sports called boxing not chicken

Marciano would no doubt take punishment to get inside ,and very likely he would go down on his shield.
What he would not do is settle for survival after sampling the first right hand.
A boxing match is predicated on the assumption that both men will be trying to win.
I know this because I have some past experience of it,which I only mention, because you felt the need to explain the Noble Art to me ,which I also might add , evolved in its present form , in MY country.

[mcvey]

So Tua's master plan was to not train for his title fight, gain 20 lbs of fat, and seduce Lewis with his mighty man boobs? Now thats a great strategy.

He got his long awaited title shot and couldn't even bother to give himself a chance by getting in decent shape. He didn't train, plodded around the ring in his shell, tried a few hooks, called it a day. So yes, I think a fit 185 lb Marciano who would do anything to win, would probably do a bit better. Lose or knocked out, he would give a better account of himself.
Tua swallowed his knob big time when he fought Lewis.

[Sardu]

Lol once a stupid ass thread, there is no way hell that any 180 pound man could beat David Tua by trying to stand toe to toe with him. There is no freaking way that some 180 pound fighter could hurt David Tua. There is no way in hell some 180 pound fighter could make it out of one round using the style Rocky Marciano used. If you picked Marcinao to win then you are the most simple minded person who has ever lived. Stop making post here because we know what type of person you are .


David Tua by 1st round Murder

With all due respect sir Marciano is not just some 180lb. fighter. He had no body fat whatsoever when he was fighting. Marciano could weigh as much as 192 and that was all sinewy muscle. Tua, by contrast, even when in shape always carried a certain amount of softness around his midsection. The natural size difference between the two men is really not that pronounced.

Also, Tua is not exactly an ATG... He has a great chin and can punch extremely well. But his various flaws have been exposed over a very good but exactly great career. Marciano is not just some 180lb pugilist. And DT is not exactly the second coming of a prime Liston or Tyson.

Anything can happen but I stand by my prediction of a Marciano UD.

[RockysSplitNose]

I love Tua, but he is starting to get overrated. Tua does not beat any ATG fighter, regardless of styles. All 3 of the best Swarmers Dempsey, Frazier, Marciano beat Tua. I still think highly of Tua. He is just nowhere near good enough to be picked over any All Time Great. I love his late clutch power, it's awesome.

This Big Time!!

And This Big Time Too!!! ???

So Tua beats Frazier and Marciano now? I take it the gulf in class and technical ability is being thrown out the window for these match-ups, and we are relying on 'Tua has a better chin because he's never been done and has more power' myth?

[Sister Sledge]

I just don't see Marciano surviving going toe-to-toe with Tua. Marciano just wasn't big enough to survive. Tua isn't an all-time great, but a prime Tua would be tough for anyone to beat, and the Rocks style would make him too accessible to getting hit by flush shots by the Tuaman. If Rocky was put down and hurt by Walcott and Moore, just think of what would happen to him getting hit by Tua.

[Doc Dynamo]

I love it. Tua beats Marciano because he's fatter. What's next Butterbean beats Joe Louis?

Tua's an ATG because he almost beat Ike I. Ike's an ATG because he beat Tua. I've seen circular logic before, but never a circle quite this small.

[hobgoblin]

i'm going with the more proven fighter...

[Caponecartels]

If only time machines existed.

[PowerPuncher]

With all due respect sir Marciano is not just some 180lb. fighter. He had no body fat whatsoever when he was fighting. Marciano could weigh as much as 192 and that was all sinewy muscle.

Why do people say this, Marciano clearly hasnt got a particularly low bodyfat percentage

[Jazzo]

Why do people say this, Marciano clearly hasnt got a particularly low bodyfat percentage

True.

Marciono was fatter than Briggs who is considered "obese", so go figure.

[janitor]

Why do people say this, Marciano clearly hasnt got a particularly low bodyfat percentage

Not everybody can get a figure like Ken Norton because of a genetic component, but that dosnt mean that he is better conditioned than them.

I am an ultra runner and I dont have an unusualy low bodyfat percentage but I would consider myself better conditioned than your average male model.

The bottom line is that you would be hard put to find a better conditioned heavyweight than Marciano this side of the 20 round limit.

[PowerPuncher]

Not everybody can get a figure like Ken Norton because of a genetic component, but that dosnt mean that he is better conditioned than them.

I am an ultra runner and I dont have an unusualy low bodyfat percentage but I would consider myself better conditioned than your average male model.

The bottom line is that you would be hard put to find a better conditioned heavyweight than Marciano this side of the 20 round limit.

There is a difference between 'conditioned' and 'not an ounce of him' and its not genetics its just his bodyfat percentage isn't that low

Fighting 20rounds plus doesn't mean you have better stamina either. Its like saying an average runner who runs marathons has got better stamina than Keninise Bekele because Bekele only does 10k

I'm also not convinced Marciano is the best conditioned HW with the likes of Holyfield, Ali, Frazier, Vitali

Whats the furthest you've ran Janitor?

[janitor]

[quote=PowerPuncher;7016281]There is a difference between 'conditioned' and 'not an ounce of him' and its not genetics its just his bodyfat percentage isn't that low

Fighting 20rounds plus doesn't mean you have better stamina either. Its like saying an average runner who runs marathons has got better stamina than Keninise Bekele because Bekele only does 10k


Of course it is wrong to assume that any fighter who has fought over 20 rounds has better stamina than any who has fought over 12 rounds, but the longer fights inevitably brought an emphasis on stamina that has been relaxed somewhat.

The 45 round rea produced some real stamina monsters like Bat Nelson.


I'm also not convinced Marciano is the best conditioned HW with the likes of Holyfield, Ali, Frazier, Vitali


Taking each in turn:

The cruiserweight version of Holyfield might have the potential to give Marciano an argument in the stamina department, though he would never be given the chance to prove it.

Marciano achieved a higher output against Ezzard Charles than Joe Frazier achieved in the FOTC, though he might have been given more to punch at. I wouldnt put Ali in the argument because he ocasionaly had to take a breather.

I dont think that VK bellongs in the argument with these gus at all.

Whats the furthest you've ran Janitor?

At the momnent 40 miles. I am hoping to do a 50 miler next .

[PowerPuncher]

[quote]
1. Of course it is wrong to assume that any fighter who has fought over 20 rounds has better stamina than any who has fought over 12 rounds, but the longer fights inevitably brought an emphasis on stamina that has been relaxed somewhat.

2. The 45 round rea produced some real stamina monsters like Bat Nelson.

Taking each in turn:

3. The cruiserweight version of Holyfield might have the potential to give Marciano an argument in the stamina department, though he would never be given the chance to prove it.

4. Marciano achieved a higher output against Ezzard Charles than Joe Frazier achieved in the FOTC, though he might have been given more to punch at.

5.I wouldnt put Ali in the argument because he ocasionaly had to take a breather.

6. I dont think that VK bellongs in the argument with these gus at all.

7. At the momnent 40 miles. I am hoping to do a 50 miler next .

1. Agreed but if you have to fight longer, you just fight longer, perhaps being more reserved with your output, pacing yourself, most would slow. Most of today's fighters fight at a more frantic pace. The likes of Mayweather looks like he could maintain what he does for 30rounds because hes so relaxed and fights at his own pace

2. Fair play he had a high workrate, I'd be willing to bet he didn't use much movement and punched at a pace he could handle, as a runner you know all about dropping the pace, slowing/speeding up

3. I think Holys style was more high paced than Rocky's. Holyfield also fought bigger opponents, which is more stamina sapping, having to get out their way, having them lean on you etc

4. I seem to remember Frazier not punching much early because he was taking a big of a beating himself obviously his punch rate will drop. Tua probably threw more against Ike than Marciano ever threw in a fight, do we take this to mean he has better stamina? No

5. Ali's style takes allot more energy than Marciano's. The whole 'dancing' sticking and moving thing and throwing fast combinations is very tiring, more so than what Rocky does

6.If what Emmanuel Steward says about Vitali/Wlads 800m 2min intervals is true they could well have the best stamina of the lot.

7. Impressive, what time do you clock. Bet you go through shoes pretty quick with all the training

[janitor]

[quote=PowerPuncher;7016612]
1. Agreed but if you have to fight longer, you just fight longer, perhaps being more reserved with your output, pacing yourself, most would slow. Most of today's fighters fight at a more frantic pace. The likes of Mayweather looks like he could maintain what he does for 30rounds because hes so relaxed and fights at his own pace


It is true to say that a lot of the old timers fought at a slower pace, but they would still have had to do things like move around the ring, clinch, and even holding their hand up would have been a drag over 20, 25, 45 rounds.


2. Fair play he had a high workrate, I'd be willing to bet he didn't use much movement and punched at a pace he could handle, as a runner you know all about dropping the pace, slowing/speeding up


For sure.


3. I think Holys style was more high paced than Rocky's. Holyfield also fought bigger opponents, which is more stamina sapping, having to get out their way, having them lean on you etc


I always found Holyfields stamina more impresive at cruiserweight. I feel that when he stepped up he reduced his workrate and spent a lot more time working on strength than stamina.


4. I seem to remember Frazier not punching much early because he was taking a big of a beating himself obviously his punch rate will drop. Tua probably threw more against Ike than Marciano ever threw in a fight, do we take this to mean he has better stamina? No

5. Ali's style takes allot more energy than Marciano's. The whole 'dancing' sticking and moving thing and throwing fast combinations is very tiring, more so than what Rocky does


All valid points.

It should be noted in Marciano's defence that he came fairly close to matching Tua's average punch output per round (against Ike) in a 15 round fight.


6.If what Emmanuel Steward says about Vitali/Wlads 800m 2min intervals is true they could well have the best stamina of the lot.


I have not heard that one.

7. Impressive, what time do you clock. Bet you go through shoes pretty quick with all the training

I did it in 8 hours 14, which is not bad given that it was over prety murderous terain.

My shoes definitely earn their keep.

[lefthook31]

Tua puts him out like he did Michael Moorer. Styles make fights and this is a bad one for Marciano.

[nahkis]

Understatement of the year.
:yep No shit. This thread and the "Tua versus Frazier" thread = :rofl

[lefthook31]

I love Tua, but he is starting to get overrated. Tua does not beat any ATG fighter, regardless of styles. All 3 of the best Swarmers Dempsey, Frazier, Marciano beat Tua. I still think highly of Tua. He is just nowhere near good enough to be picked over any All Time Great. I love his late clutch power, it's awesome.
How would they beat Tua??? Tua never struggled with a fighter who came at him. In fact I cant think of any that made it past two rounds. ATG or not, styles make fights, Tua punches harder than any of them, and has a great chin. No way they outpunch and outhustle him either.

[The Mongoose]

How would they beat Tua??? Tua never struggled with a fighter who came at him. In fact I cant think of any that made it past two rounds. ATG or not, styles make fights, Tua punches harder than any of them, and has a great chin. No way they outpunch and outhustle him either.


Tua did struggle against Ike, who came at him in the early rounds. Tua couldn't get his own punches off when Ike was bombing on the inside, having to wait until his opponent was done throwing before starting his own offense. Tua never faced or beat a slugger ranked in the top 10 either, Marciano beat the number one contender and Jack Dempsey heir apparent on his way to the title.

One of Marciano's best performances and easiest nights at the elite level was against Rex Layne, a bigger, stronger, swarmer who was in his face and crowding him the entire time. No having to chase down a counter punching cutie, Rocky showed surprising hand speed, strong defense, and capable combination punching in close quarters. Layne's plan to overwhelm him with his superior size and power was a disaster.

Layne actually had better credentials than Tua with wins over Turkey Thompson, Henry Hall, Satterfield, and Walcott. His performance against Satterfield is one of the better displays of durability and late one punch power at the elite level. He was the favorite over Marciano because he was expected to beat the smaller brawler and instead he got stopped cold for the first and only time in his career.

[lefthook31]

Personally I thought Tua won the fight with Ibeabuchi. We are also talking about a big man in Ibeabuchi, not a 180 pounder. Youre right that fight was at close quarters, but Ike also took some very clean shots that wobbled him. I just cant see a smaller Marciano standing up to Tuas power. If he could take it, he could win he was a better fighter, but I just dont think he, Dempsey or Frazier could take those kind of bombs from Tua. I doubt even Tyson could.

[Kalasinn]

Personally I thought Tua won the fight with Ibeabuchi. We are also talking about a big man in Ibeabuchi, not a 180 pounder. Youre right that fight was at close quarters, but Ike also took some very clean shots that wobbled him. I just cant see a smaller Marciano standing up to Tuas power. If he could take it, he could win he was a better fighter, but I just dont think he, Dempsey or Frazier could take those kind of bombs from Tua. I doubt even Tyson could.
Do you favour Tua over Marciano, Dempsey, Frazier and Tyson then?

[Flea Man]

How many cunts are going to swarm this board???

[janitor]

Personally I thought Tua won the fight with Ibeabuchi. We are also talking about a big man in Ibeabuchi, not a 180 pounder. Youre right that fight was at close quarters, but Ike also took some very clean shots that wobbled him. I just cant see a smaller Marciano standing up to Tuas power. If he could take it, he could win he was a better fighter, but I just dont think he, Dempsey or Frazier could take those kind of bombs from Tua. I doubt even Tyson could.

O.K., I happen to think that Tua had one of the hardest left hooks of all time, but what makes you think that these guys are just going to fold under it?

Its only power at the end of the day.

[lefthook31]

O.K., I happen to think that Tua had one of the hardest left hooks of all time, but what makes you think that these guys are just going to fold under it?

Its only power at the end of the day.
Fold, I dont know about fold, Tua knocked out a lot of guys with decent chins. Now your inserting a guy who is 30 50 pounds smaller. I just dont think their chins would hold.

[lefthook31]

Do you favour Tua over Marciano, Dempsey, Frazier and Tyson then?
I would say that Tua would have a very good chance against any fighter that slugs with him.

[janitor]

Fold, I dont know about fold, Tua knocked out a lot of guys with decent chins. Now your inserting a guy who is 30 50 pounds smaller. I just dont think their chins would hold.

Tua has a verry impresive string of stoppages against second teir opposition but who did he actualy knock out that was elite level?

Sell it to me that these durable ATGs are not going to stand up to his power.

[lefthook31]

Tua has a verry impresive string of stoppages against second teir opposition but who did he actualy knock out that was elite level?

Sell it to me that these durable ATGs are not going to stand up to his power.
I understand that, but who did Marciano, Dempsey, Frazier and Tyson stand toe to toe with who punched as hard and was as physically big as Tua?

At some point the size factor starts to overtake the skill level taking into consideration the stylistic matchups.

[The Mongoose]

Personally I thought Tua won the fight with Ibeabuchi. We are also talking about a big man in Ibeabuchi, not a 180 pounder. Youre right that fight was at close quarters, but Ike also took some very clean shots that wobbled him. I just cant see a smaller Marciano standing up to Tuas power. If he could take it, he could win he was a better fighter, but I just dont think he, Dempsey or Frazier could take those kind of bombs from Tua. I doubt even Tyson could.


I remember having Tua winning by a point or so as well, but only after the 5th round when Ike’s attack stalled and he went into semi-retreat mode for the rest of the fight.

The great swarmers worry me against Tua because of his tendency to wane and wait for openings when he’s being attacked. You had to beat Dempsey and Tyson to the punch to keep them at bay while the sustained power punching of Marciano and Fraizer would keep him in his shell. Gambling on your ability to take punishment just doesn’t work against these guys, Layne and Chuvalo suffered the first stoppage losses of their careers trying to tough it out. Tua came up short against the unproven Ike and Byrd held his ground more than most are willing to admit, often fighting his way out of the corner and backing the Terminator up with straight lefts to the chin and body.

Also, Marciano always kept his right hand high and could possibly keep Tua’s left hook in check. Charles had an ATG left hook at heavyweight but had considerable trouble timing the Rock with it. Tua had trouble creating openings for his left consistently, often banking on defensive lapses that may or may not come.

[lefthook31]

I understand what your saying Mongoose, but none of those fighters had the defensive ability or fighting style of Chris Byrd, or the size of Ike Ibeabuchi.
I would give an outside mobile boxer who weighed 180 pounds more of a chance than a swarmer for the reasons I mentioned.

[SuzieQ49]

If you pick tua over a 1988 mike tyson..your living on fantasy island.

[lefthook31]

If you pick tua over a 1988 mike tyson..your living on fantasy island.
I would favor Tyson, but wouldnt be surprised of any outcome. Tua just has the great equalizer, and weve seen it bail him out of countless fights. Even ATG's get caught occasionally.

[Bummy Davis]

I think this fight boils down to pace and stamina and condition. Marciano wears Dave down and scores a KO over Tua, Yes I see Marciano's power hurting Dave. I noticed in the Lewis fight a good right hand by Lewis kept Dave at bay for a silent agreement

[The Mongoose]

I understand what your saying Mongoose, but none of those fighters had the defensive ability or fighting style of Chris Byrd, or the size of Ike Ibeabuchi.
I would give an outside mobile boxer who weighed 180 pounds more of a chance than a swarmer for the reasons I mentioned.


I actually think Tua is better suited at stalking boxers. He looked much more comfortable following them around in his shell and waiting for openings than struggling to fend off Ike's two fisted attack.

[lefthook31]

I actually think Tua is better suited at stalking boxers. He looked much more comfortable following them around in his shell and waiting for openings than struggling to fend off Ike's two fisted attack.
Would you favor a 193 pound Roy Jones over Tua?

[PowerPuncher]

Tua did struggle against Ike, who came at him in the early rounds. Tua couldn't get his own punches off when Ike was bombing on the inside, having to wait until his opponent was done throwing before starting his own offense. Tua never faced or beat a slugger ranked in the top 10 either, Marciano beat the number one contender and Jack Dempsey heir apparent on his way to the title.

One of Marciano's best performances and easiest nights at the elite level was against Rex Layne, a bigger, stronger, swarmer who was in his face and crowding him the entire time. No having to chase down a counter punching cutie, Rocky showed surprising hand speed, strong defense, and capable combination punching in close quarters. Layne's plan to overwhelm him with his superior size and power was a disaster.

Layne actually had better credentials than Tua with wins over Turkey Thompson, Henry Hall, Satterfield, and Walcott. His performance against Satterfield is one of the better displays of durability and late one punch power at the elite level. He was the favorite over Marciano because he was expected to beat the smaller brawler and instead he got stopped cold for the first and only time in his career.

Tua didn't go into a shell against Ibeaubuchi though and Layne wasn't a 'big man' he was a 190lber, Tua is going to be far stronger and harder hitting than him with a better defense and shorter punches. Marciano fought Layne at close quarters and this would seriously suit Tua. Tua has been in with plenty of big punchers like Lewis, Maskeev, Rahman, Moorer and they have all opted to box safety first Ibeabuchi aside and he went mad after taking Tua's shots

I certainly don't see how Layne has better credentials when Tua has wins over Moorer, Rahman, Maskeev, Ruiz and near miss against Ibeabuchi

[The Mongoose]

Would you favor a 193 pound Roy Jones over Tua?

Not sure on that one.

Like Byrd, Jones is a very unorthodox technician who stays within range, making his opponent miss and looking to counter. He could be a frustrating opponent for the Terminator however he doesn’t punch in pesky high volumes like Byrd, and the Tuaman might find the opportunity to bomb him. Very interesting match up, I would be intrigued to see if the timing and accuracy of Jones could stun Tua a few times.

[The Mongoose]

tua didn't go into a shell against ibeaubuchi though and layne wasn't a 'big man' he was a 190lber, tua is going to be far stronger and harder hitting than him with a better defense and shorter punches. Marciano fought layne at close quarters and this would seriously suit tua. Tua has been in with plenty of big punchers like lewis, maskeev, rahman, moorer and they have all opted to box safety first ibeabuchi aside and he went mad after taking tua's shots

i certainly don't see how layne has better credentials when tua has wins over moorer, rahman, maskeev, ruiz and near miss against ibeabuchi

of course tuaz didntz shell, dats crazy. Him and ike traded for 12 rounds with punches that could kill god!

Bam! Bam!!! Bam!!! Tua says "i like that, now try my left hook, ike!" bam! Bam!! "you want more of that, ike!" ike says,"call me mr. President, now get off my plane!" bam! Bam! .........bam!!! ..........................bam!! Bam!!!

[RockyJim]

Marciano takes this..Tua is becoming over rated......what has he done to make people think that he'll beat a force of nature like Rocky Marciano???

[frankenfrank]

I just don't see Marciano surviving going toe-to-toe with Tua. Marciano just wasn't big enough to survive. Tua isn't an all-time great, but a prime Tua would be tough for anyone to beat, and the Rocks style would make him too accessible to getting hit by flush shots by the Tuaman. If Rocky was put down and hurt by Walcott and Moore, just think of what would happen to him getting hit by Tua.
Strange , but more than 20 people here don't understand this.

[janitor]

Would you favor a 193 pound Roy Jones over Tua?

If he had a better chin then I would favour him without hesitation.

[lefthook31]

If he had a better chin then I would favour him without hesitation.
So would I and thats just it, Tua could be outboxed very easily, but not outslugged. These ATG sluggers were smaller and had been knocked down by lessor foes. Tua is a huge puncher and his size and power offsets a lot of their skills.

[The Mongoose]

So would I and thats just it, Tua could be outboxed very easily, but not outslugged. These ATG sluggers were smaller and had been knocked down by lessor foes. Tua is a huge puncher and his size and power offsets a lot of their skills.

-Tua's power bailed him out against boxers on the fringe contender level, many of his better victims like Oleg and Rahman were not known for being the sturdiest bunch to begin with.

-Even at a puffed up 193 lbs, Jones is naturally a much smaller man than Marciano, fighting at considerably lower weights most of his career. Guy has got one tiny head...lol

-All Time Great Champions Walcott and Moore are not lesser foes than Tua by any means.

[lefthook31]

-Tua's power bailed him out against boxers on the fringe contender level, many of his better victims like Oleg and Rahman were not known for being the sturdiest bunch to begin with.

-Even at a puffed up 193 lbs, Jones is naturally a much smaller man than Marciano, fighting at considerably lower weights most of his career. Guy has got one tiny head...lol

-All Time Great Champions Walcott and Moore are not lesser foes than Tua by any means.
They are in the power department. Also Marciano wouldnt box at range, he would come at Tua and get hit hard.

[The Mongoose]

They are in the power department. Also Marciano wouldnt box at range, he would come at Tua and get hit hard.


Splitting hairs really, Walcott's left hook/uppercut, Tua's left, and Moore's right cross are going to mess anybody up if they can be landed flush or otherwise. You can toss Ezzard Charles in there as well. These are four guys with proven one punch power over opponents of all shapes and sizes. Moore for instance has Koed modern size heavyweight fighters that had up to a 30+ lb weight advantage over him. These fighters all had better means of delivering said power with superior timing and accuracy than Tua. And if Tua's one punch power was truely inflammable than Woodson, Ike, Byrd, and Lewis wouldn't have shrugged them off in the rare events he made decent contact.

[billy boy balbo]

rocky easily wins,enough talking about tua hes overrated and does not deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as marciano

[janitor]

rocky easily wins,enough talking about tua hes overrated and does not deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as marciano

He might not deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Marciano, but that dosn't mean that we can totaly dismiss his chances.

[Hydraulix]

If Rocky was put down and hurt by Walcott and Moore, just think of what would happen to him getting hit by Tua.

Amen. :happy

[SuzieQ49]

I certainly don't see how Layne has better credentials when Tua has wins over Moorer, Rahman, Maskeev, Ruiz and near miss against Ibeabuchi

Moorer= Washed up

Charles, Walcott, Satterfield, Thompson, Brion > Ruiz, Rahman, Maskaev, Oquendo, Moorer


Layne holds two wins over top 20 ATG heavyweights Ezzard Charles and Jersey Joe Walcott. These are better opponents than anyone David Tua ever defeated. Satterfield, Thompson, Brion, Dunlap, Hall round out a respectable list of contenders. All in All, Layne's resume trumps Tua's.

[SuzieQ49]

Mongoose,

you make some excellent points about tua struggling on the inside and marciano being able to score a lot of points there. Marciano was a terrific inside fighter, both in skill and in using his leverage. Tua will struggle with Marciano on the inside. One of the big reasons why I favor Rock to outpoint him.

[mcvey]

Tua didn't go into a shell against Ibeaubuchi though and Layne wasn't a 'big man' he was a 190lber, Tua is going to be far stronger and harder hitting than him with a better defense and shorter punches. Marciano fought Layne at close quarters and this would seriously suit Tua. Tua has been in with plenty of big punchers like Lewis, Maskeev, Rahman, Moorer and they have all opted to box safety first Ibeabuchi aside and he went mad after taking Tua's shots

I certainly don't see how Layne has better credentials when Tua has wins over Moorer, Rahman, Maskeev, Ruiz and near miss against Ibeabuchi

I think the seeds of madness have allways lurked just below the surface in old Ike.:lol:

[ticar]

why do people keep saying that tua hit lewis flush with his left hook?no,he didn't.
tua is bigger than marciano,stronger,punches harder,has a better chin.
marciano was great,but i can't see him surviving tua's artillery.styles make fights

[The Mongoose]

why do people keep saying that tua hit lewis flush with his left hook?no,he didn't.
tua is bigger than marciano,stronger,punches harder,has a better chin.
marciano was great,but i can't see him surviving tua's artillery.styles make fights

They weren't always flush but he connected with a few decent ones...BUT NO, IF TUA HIT PERFECTLY, LEWIS WOULD SEE DEMONS AND COMMIT RAPE! SUCH IS THE POWER OF TUA'S LEFT.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[ticar]

yea that clip just confirms that tua didn't hit lewis flush.
and the name of the clip is hillarious,yes lewis did beat a lot of punchers,but noone of those punchers hit him flush except mccall and rahman :deal

[he grant]

Moorer= Washed up

Charles, Walcott, Satterfield, Thompson, Brion > Ruiz, Rahman, Maskaev, Oquendo, Moorer


Layne holds two wins over top 20 ATG heavyweights Ezzard Charles and Jersey Joe Walcott. These are better opponents than anyone David Tua ever defeated. Satterfield, Thompson, Brion, Dunlap, Hall round out a respectable list of contenders. All in All, Layne's resume trumps Tua's.

Are you saying Rex Layne was a better fighter than Tua or defeats him straight up ? I think Tua stops Layne in about 90 seconds ...

[Tin_Ribs]

I want all the people who seem to think that Tua's power is untakeable to name one really top-level chin that he managed to crack. Just one. Just one teensy weensy one. And anyone who says Ruiz has my warmest invitation to go and fuck their own colon with a cucumber.

I'll even go out on a limb and say that Layne, Walcott, Louis (the old one) and Moore (the even olderer one) all hit harder, faster and more accurately than Tua ever did or still does. On account of them all smashing great chins of varying shapes, weight advantages and sizes at some point in their respective careers.

And all while having haircuts that suggested they weren't participating in illicit liaisons with the electric socket.

First one to answer gets a carrot.

[SuzieQ49]

Are you saying Rex Layne was a better fighter than Tua or defeats him straight up ? I think Tua stops Layne in about 90 seconds ...

If Satterfield couldn't stop him in 90 seconds, how is Tua going to be able too? Layne had a steel chin in his prime. Layne would give tua fits with his good left jab. I think Layne was to wide open for Tua and would eventually get knocked out latter in the fight, but it will take tua a bit of time. Hasim Rahman, who did not have a good chin, took David Tua several rounds. Same with Maskaev(not a good chin).

I am saying Layne clearly beat better competition than David Tua. This is not up for debate.

You underrate Layne big time. Because Marciano knocked him out, you think every other puncher would do the same. Perhaps rather than degrade layne, you should give Marciano credit for a big win over a young top rated opponent who was favored to be the next heavyweight champion of the world. Not everyone can have that easy of a time with Layne.

Then again, you are infatuated with David Tua. You actually thinks he beats Joe Frazier! LOL

[Jear]

If Satterfield couldn't stop him in 90 seconds, how is Tua going to be able too? Layne had a steel chin in his prime. Layne would give tua fits with his good left jab. I think Layne was to wide open for Tua and would eventually get knocked out latter in the fight, but it will take tua a bit of time. Hasim Rahman, who did not have a good chin, took David Tua several rounds. Same with Maskaev(not a good chin).

I am saying Layne clearly beat better competition than David Tua. This is not up for debate.

You underrate Layne big time. Because Marciano knocked him out, you think every other puncher would do the same. Perhaps rather than degrade layne, you should give Marciano credit for a big win over a young top rated opponent who was favored to be the next heavyweight champion of the world. Not everyone can have that easy of a time with Layne.

Then again, you are infatuated with David Tua. You actually thinks he beats Joe Frazier! LOL

Satterfield hit hard for a 176lber but he doesnt hit like Tua. Baker was the only decent heavy he blasted out and he wasnt any better than the Moorer Tua sparked. Williams was a last minute so I dont place much into that result.

Layne may have beat better fighters but I would question whether he beat a better puncher than Tua

[janitor]

Satterfield hit hard for a 176lber

Satterfield hit hard for a heavyweight period.

Take my word for it.

[Boilermaker]

They weren't always flush but he connected with a few decent ones...BUT NO, IF TUA HIT PERFECTLY, LEWIS WOULD SEE DEMONS AND COMMIT RAPE! SUCH IS THE POWER OF TUA'S LEFT.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

That is a good video.

Mavrovich certainly looked impressive for a few moments, Mason also. It is easy to forget (because of his two KOs) that Lewis can still take most bombs.

[Son of Gaul]

Tua's raw physicality overwhelms The Rock...Tuaman by Manslaughter.

[Son of Gaul]

David "Almost as overrated as Corrie Sanders" Tua has no chance in hell to beat the Rock. Rock beats him soundly inside where Tua fights.

Ok, but...HOW?

[Jear]

Satterfield hit hard for a heavyweight period.

Take my word for it.

Do you place him in the same echelon as Foreman, Shavers, Tyson, Lewis, Tua?

I certainly do not

[he grant]

I want all the people who seem to think that Tua's power is untakeable to name one really top-level chin that he managed to crack. Just one. Just one teensy weensy one. And anyone who says Ruiz has my warmest invitation to go and fuck their own colon with a cucumber.

I'll even go out on a limb and say that Layne, Walcott, Louis (the old one) and Moore (the even olderer one) all hit harder, faster and more accurately than Tua ever did or still does. On account of them all smashing great chins of varying shapes, weight advantages and sizes at some point in their respective careers.

And all while having haircuts that suggested they weren't participating in illicit liaisons with the electric socket.

First one to answer gets a carrot.

Your statement really needs no response. It speaks for itself.

[he grant]

If Satterfield couldn't stop him in 90 seconds, how is Tua going to be able too? Layne had a steel chin in his prime. Layne would give tua fits with his good left jab. I think Layne was to wide open for Tua and would eventually get knocked out latter in the fight, but it will take tua a bit of time. Hasim Rahman, who did not have a good chin, took David Tua several rounds. Same with Maskaev(not a good chin).

I am saying Layne clearly beat better competition than David Tua. This is not up for debate.

You underrate Layne big time. Because Marciano knocked him out, you think every other puncher would do the same. Perhaps rather than degrade layne, you should give Marciano credit for a big win over a young top rated opponent who was favored to be the next heavyweight champion of the world. Not everyone can have that easy of a time with Layne.

Then again, you are infatuated with David Tua. You actually thinks he beats Joe Frazier! LOL

Bob Satterfield ? Light heavyweight Bob Satterfield is your response ? Again, let your words speak for themselves.

Layne was a decent, plodder for his day. Absolutely no more . His speed was below challenger quality. He had a fairly decent , clubbing sort of right. Fairly well conditioned putting aside the pudgy body. Good heart ... that's that. Very hittable ... you really could not design a more perfect Tua KO victim. Sorry, I know he's your example of Rocky's victory over a young top contender but it's almost as big a reach as your endless pitch of the 37 year old Louis still being a serious test .. pure romanticising ...

[PowerPuncher]

I want all the people who seem to think that Tua's power is untakeable to name one really top-level chin that he managed to crack. Just one. Just one teensy weensy one. And anyone who says Ruiz has my warmest invitation to go and fuck their own colon with a cucumber.

I'll even go out on a limb and say that Layne, Walcott, Louis (the old one) and Moore (the even olderer one) all hit harder, faster and more accurately than Tua ever did or still does. On account of them all smashing great chins of varying shapes, weight advantages and sizes at some point in their respective careers.

And all while having haircuts that suggested they weren't participating in illicit liaisons with the electric socket.

First one to answer gets a carrot.

People questioning Tua's power are either borberline retarded or are blind. Watch Tua's KO's he's clearly 1 of the biggest HW hitters ever. Do you muppets actually watch fights, watch Tua's brutal KO's over big men and find me footage that shows Walcott/Layne/Moore hit nearly as brutally, that power that leaves a man brutally knocked cold.

YEs Ruiz has a shit chin, thats why no one could KO him except Tua, not Haye, Holyfield, Valuev, Chageav, Rahman, Toney, Jones, Golota, Kirk Johnson, McCline. Rahman has been KO'd by others, but only big punchers. Moorer/Maskeev didn't have the best chin in the world, but the manner of the KO was sick. Sullivan was out cold in the first with Tua and had previously taken Vitali 9 and wasn't stopped by Klitschko, he quit

Let me turn the question around on you 'who did Marciano KO that had an iron chin' there's Louis, but he was ancient by then and already stopped by an ex LHW. Practically all Rocky's opponents had been KO'd quicker by other men. And I'm not saying Rocky wasn't a puncher, but your logic is borderline retarded, now go and fuck your cucumber

[PowerPuncher]

Light punching David Tua

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[he grant]

People questioning Tua's power are either borberline retarded or are blind. Watch Tua's KO's he's clearly 1 of the biggest HW hitters ever. Do you muppets actually watch fights, watch Tua's brutal KO's over big men and find me footage that shows Walcott/Layne/Moore hit nearly as brutally, that power that leaves a man brutally knocked cold.

YEs Ruiz has a shit chin, thats why no one could KO him except Tua, not Haye, Holyfield, Valuev, Chageav, Rahman, Toney, Jones, Golota, Kirk Johnson, McCline. Rahman has been KO'd by others, but only big punchers. Moorer/Maskeev didn't have the best chin in the world, but the manner of the KO was sick. Sullivan was out cold in the first with Tua and had previously taken Vitali 9 and wasn't stopped by Klitschko, he quit

Let me turn the question around on you 'who did Marciano KO that had an iron chin' there's Louis, but he was ancient by then and already stopped by an ex LHW. Practically all Rocky's opponents had been KO'd quicker by other men. And I'm not saying Rocky wasn't a puncher, but your logic is borderline retarded, now go and fuck your cucumber

A little rough at the end but a very honest post ...

[lefthook31]

Using 250 pound 6'5" Lennox Lewis style as a barometer as to how Tua would match up against a 180 pound pressure fighter is moronic.

[SuzieQ49]

Baker was the only decent heavy he blasted out and he wasnt any better than the Moorer Tua sparked

1. What about Cleveland Williams? or rated contenders Lee Oma, John Holman?

2. Baker was the # 3 rated heavyweight in the world. He was a lot better than the unrated washed up version of michael moorer which tua destroyed(i watched it live...brutal)

[TG1]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Marciano would get killed after a left hook miss by Tua! Thread is a joke! Rocky was too small (190 pounds plus) and more worryingly, TOO FUCKIN AVAILABLE!

[TG1]

WHO THE FUCK PICKED MARCIANO BY KO??????????????

Kill yourselves!

[SuzieQ49]

Bob Satterfield ? Light heavyweight Bob Satterfield is your response ? Again, let your words speak for themselves.
..

Are you attempting to claim bob satterfield did not hit as hard as most heavyweights?



Layne was a decent, plodder for his day. Absolutely no more . .

Experts would disagree with you.


"Throw out the record book on Layne, he was a rugged brawler with a quick, very heavy right. As he got shopworn and discouraged, more and more, he got outworked and beaten down.

But, when he first raged out of Utah -- full of piss and vinegar -- he'd have been a handful for anybody. He could crack with that right." - Boxing Historian Joe Rein aka John Garfield on ESB


In the October, 1950 issue of Ring, Nat Fleischer had this to say about Layne:
“Layne looms as the outstanding prospect west of the Mississippi. He is a hard hitter...Layne has what it takes to be developed into the next world heavyweight king. He can hit and has an abundance of courage.”

His speed was below challenger quality. He had a fairly decent , .

Rex Layne did not have slow hands. I would say they were above average speed wise.

clubbing sort of right.

I would classify the right hand as more of a quick straight right hand than a club. Watch the satterfield kayo on youtube.


"Layne, in his salad days, S, may not've been elegant, but he could drop an ox with his right. That punch was NO JOKE" - John Garfield


Fairly well conditioned putting aside the pudgy body..

This shows me you have understudied Layne. Layne was not in good condition. He went through periods of hardly training. He got by on a lot of natural talent. in a 1970s Ring Magazine article, Layne admited "I wish I had worked harder as a pro in training camp".

Sure, Layne put up a very impressive workrate in the Walcott fight, which according to layne was his "best training camp"...but just imagine if he had trained hard consistently?

Good heart ... that's that. Very hittable ... you really could not design a more perfect Tua KO victim. .

Yes. Layne had a very poor defense. This was is one glaring weakness. But he could cover it up very well with his good chin, and fighting heart. Sometimes your offense is your best defense and that is what Layne got by on. I do think because of layne's non existent defense Tua would spark him, but your living on fantasy island if you think Tua will knock him out in 90 seconds.

One thing your forgetting about Layne is his left jab. He had a very good one. perhaps his best assset. Layne outjabbed some good fighters on film. It was quick and accurate.


Sorry, I know he's your example of Rocky's victory over a young top contender but it's almost as big a reach as your endless pitch of the 37 year old Louis still being a serious test .. pure romanticising

In your opinion! Most others would not agree with you. Layne was a top young contender, that is a fact. If you can't accept that, then deal with it. You call Firpo a "monsterous murderous" puncher LMAO, but firpo's skills make Layne look like Willie Pep.

Rex Layne defeated Jersey Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles, two top 20 heavyweights of all time. Who has David Tua ever defeated that compares to those two? Seems your the one romanticizing Tua, while ignoring huge accomplishments by Rex Layne.

Yes, Joe Louis was a serious test for any young challenger out there, despite being 37. Louis would have jabbed ray mercer's head off the same way a 42 year old larry holmes did.

[SuzieQ49]

Special Thanks to MarcianoFrazier for this article





THE RIGHT LAYNE
By NAT LOUBET

REX LAYNE, heavyweight challenger, had just added another victim to his collection. Bob Satterfield, Chicagoan, had been raining punches off Rex's cocoanut-like noggin all night. The cherubic-faced Mormon from Lewiston, Utah, fondeled the sore spots. Satterifeld had been laid to rest in 2:56 of the eighth canto when Mark Conn, the arbiter, halted the contest with Bob helples from a short right to the jaw.
The bout had been an even-steven affair up to the knockout, although Layne had received all his punches in one locality- the cephalic, or, as the inmates of Stillman's Gym would have it, the kisser.
It was suggested right after the contest that Rex had youth, strength, could take and give it, had showed improvement in his boxing form since his last two Garden appearances against Jersey Joe Walcott and Cesar Brion, respectively, but that he was still green and needed much seasoning in the technique of boxing.
Marvin Jensen, the mink-raising guardian of Layne's ring fortunes, rushed to the defense. "He can box a lot better than he has shown since coming East. Did you see that boy punch? Ole Rex here sure has what it takes. He's full of fight.
"Yeah," someone said, "but how long will he be full of fight if he doesn't learn how to protect himself better?"
Rex interrupted: "A couple more fights like this and I'll be playing marbles," he quipped.
Regardless of his record, an enviable on of 32 fights with only one loss, that to Dave Whitlock whom he defeated in two other outings, it is clear that Rex will have his greatest trouble with fast men who can move around. He won't lose anything by picking up a little more polish in the finer points of boxing.

REX started his boxing career while a sergeant with the 187th Regiment of the 11th Airborne Division, located in the Asiatic theatre. He had enlisted in September, 1946, and was mustered out in March, 1948. In the interim, he won regimental and divisional titles. He came close to carrying home the bacon in the All-Japan tournaments in 1947 and 1948, and but a lad by the name of Howard Williams kept him from achieving that end.
It wasn't until 1949 that Layne made the simon-pure "big time." In that year he won the National A.A.U. championship and a few months later turned professional. His amateur record stands at 26 fights, with only four losses.
After Layne's unimpressive win over Cesar Brion we were visited by the mild-mannered, bashful, boyish Rex and his enthusiastic manager, Jensen.
Jensen recounted the thrill in seeing the best of the breed come into its own; how he had thrilled in raising the best mink and now he was seeing "ole Rex" become a serious contender for heavyweight honors.
It was less than two years ago that THE RING picked Layne as a comer, and he has kept faith by making the grade.
A group had gathered and someone said, "Rex has a whale of a right, but why doesn't he use his left more?"
Jensen jumped into the breach. "Ole Rex here has a dandy of a left hand but he injured it in an early fight and only recently has he started to develop it again."
Rex cut in with: "That's right. My left is beginning to shape up again. I feel it in my gym workouts, and I'll be using it more as I go along."
In his fight with Satterfield, Rex showed improvement with that left, and better boxing form, but he is still way off in ring science and unless he learns how to protect himself, how to avoid powerful wallops such as he got in the Satterfield bout, he'll fail to reach his objective. He's too wide open for punishment.

JENSEN has been the butt of a great deal of criticism from New York scribes for the manner in which he has brought Layne along. His critics claim that his boy was too green for the likes of a Walcott; should never have been in with an awkward spoiler like Brion, and that Satterfield was too strong a puncher for the Utah youngster.
"He's being fed to the lions," has been the cry. But Layne has defeated all three, and by so doing, he is now in a spot to demand recognition as a top challenger. After all, success is what counts, and Layne has come through with victories. His T.N.T. sock and courage have done that for him.
Critics assert that Jensen has not had the experience in the pro league. Yes, he's developed a bevy of amateurs, but the manager of a big-time professional is different, has been the butt of the criticism.
Well, Jensen had to take more chances than other managers or else not get any matches at all for Layne. He was up against it and has won out. The choices that he accepted have all worked out well for Layne, despite the fact that the opposition was exceedingly tough.
Some claim that Layne must receive expert tutoring in boxing technique, tutorin that an old-timer must give. Well, Jensen has one of the best old-time managers in his corner in Joe Woodeman, former manager of Sam Langford, who should be able to advis properly.
We recall a conversation with Jensen prior to Layne's fight with Walcott in which he stated that he wasn't advancing the easy way. "I'm sure Walcott can be beaten by Rex. I've studied the movies of his previous fights and I know what I'm doing. He continued: "There's too much picking of opponents today. If a man wants to be champ he must prove that right by fighting the best."
Results talk, and Layne is up there, but we would like to see him taught more of the finer points. Continuing to take two to land one is likely to end as Layne himself stated: "A couple more fights like this and I'll be playing marbles."
We were shooting the bull a few days prior to the Satterfield affair. Someone made a crack about how Layne looked too young to be of age.
Joe Woodman said: "He'll be 23 in June." He turned to Layne, who was present. "Right?"
Rex said: "I was born June 7, 1928."
"What time?" someone joshed.
Someone else cut in: "Did you ever do anything else but fight for a living?"
"Sure," laughed Rex. "My father owns a farm in Lewiston and I worked on it until I went into the army."
"Say, Rex," interrupted a bystander, "you're not married, are yuh?"
--------- This goes into a lot of talk about Layne's family and whatever else, so I'll just cut to the end-------
We asked Joe Woodman, who has been close to the youngster, what kind of boy he is.
"A grand lad," said Joe. "He lives a clean life, trains hard and is a good family man-and don't forget... a darn good fighter."
The last time we saw Layne was the day after his fight with Satterfield, when he was in THE RING office with Jensen.
"What's you ambition?" Rex was asked.
"What a question to ask a fighter," he countered. I want to be a champ and some day have a restaurant of my own like Jack Dempsey."
Both Dempsey and Gene Tunney had seen Layne in his fight with Satterfield and were high on him. "Polish up his defense and you have a prospective champ," was their chorus.

[SuzieQ49]

Anyone else pick Roland Lastarza to make David Tua look silly? think Chris Byrd.

[Cheese]

This is a tough one. I'd pull for Tua and his left hook.

[Son of Gaul]

Mongoose,

you make some excellent points about tua struggling on the inside and marciano being able to score a lot of points there. Marciano was a terrific inside fighter, both in skill and in using his leverage. Tua will struggle with Marciano on the inside. One of the big reasons why I favor Rock to outpoint him.

The problem with this statement is that "point" won't determine the winner in this battle of swarmers...

[SuzieQ49]

Why not? Both have the durability, Stamina, and Heart to last the distance..The better skilled of the two will win on points. Rocky is more skilled than Tua.

[PowerPuncher]

Anyone else pick Roland Lastarza to make David Tua look silly? think Chris Byrd.

Maybe, although in all honesty I haven't seen enough of Lastarza to make that call. Tua often got outboxed before he caught up with his man, I never like to bet against a puncher who carries his massive power so late like Tua, just in case he pulls the big 1 out the bank.

[Jear]

1. What about Cleveland Williams? or rated contenders Lee Oma, John Holman?

2. Baker was the # 3 rated heavyweight in the world. He was a lot better than the unrated washed up version of michael moorer which tua destroyed(i watched it live...brutal)

Read my whole post regarding Williams a last minute sub

Oma and Holman just werent that good
Holmans wins over worn versions of Charles, Ray and Thompson arent impressive
Oma himself was battleweary and got overzealous once he dropped Satterfield and got caught with a counter, he didnt recover from

[Son of Gaul]

Why not? Both have the durability, Stamina, and Heart to last the distance..The better skilled of the two will win on points. Rocky is more skilled than Tua.

I agree that these two have ATG chins but do you really think that Marciano can take a 250 lb juggernaut's punches for 12 rounds? Who has Marciano fought who's punches remotely compare to Tua's? It's debatable whether or not Tua could actually throw bombs for an entire 12 round fight while being pressure but I think it's even more questionable to assume that Marciano could take Tua's power when he was floored by Walcott...

[The Mongoose]

Using 250 pound 6'5" Lennox Lewis style as a barometer as to how Tua would match up against a 180 pound pressure fighter is moronic.

:think

Nobody did....in this thread at least. Some idiot deined Lennox Lewis got caught with decent Tua lefts, video evidence proves contrary.

[The Mongoose]

I agree that these two have ATG chins but do you really think that Marciano can take a 250 lb juggernaut's punches for 12 rounds? Who has Marciano fought who's punches remotely compare to Tua's? It's debatable whether or not Tua could actually throw bombs for an entire 12 round fight while being pressure but I think it's even more questionable to assume that Marciano could take Tua's power when he was floored by Walcott...

-At 250 Tua was lethargic and grossly overweight. 225 was probably his best weight.

-Louis, Walcott, Charles, and Moore are all time great punchers. All have koed better quality opponents than Tua's victims when he fought them, and many like Moore and Louis have stopped modern size heavies. Nobody is denying Tua's power but suggesting he was well beyond these greats because he carried more weight is errorenous. The results speak for themselves. All these guys could bang, even the past it Louis was busting tough fighters up.

-He was floored by Walcott the same way Tua was floored by Rahman. Walcott connected with much better punches later in the fight, mostly straight rights as Rocky was difficult to time clean with his signature left hooks and uppercuts because of his stance and high right hand......which worries me about Tua's chances. His tendancy to shell up and wait for his turn to punch instead of looking for counters is also cause for concern against a guy who has been described as a boat motor.

Of course all interesting and logical analysis has been tossed out the window in this thread in favor of "if such and such knocked him down what would such and such do?"

[SuzieQ49]

Maybe, although in all honesty I haven't seen enough of Lastarza to make that call. Tua often got outboxed before he caught up with his man, I never like to bet against a puncher who carries his massive power so late like Tua, just in case he pulls the big 1 out the bank.

Your right. Tua did have late clutch power, but that was against men who stood right in front of him. Against Chris Byrd, Tua looked lost. Lastarza will be moving and countering the whole fight. Roland was all defense.

[PowerPuncher]

Your right. Tua did have late clutch power, but that was against men who stood right in front of him. Against Chris Byrd, Tua looked lost. Lastarza will be moving and countering the whole fight. Roland was all defense.

Tua was past prime against Byrd though and he knocked out undefeated Oquendo late who is a fast stick and mover, who actually deserved the decisions over Byrd and Holyfield to. Tua has faced plenty of stick and move merchants and knocked them out

[Tin_Ribs]

People questioning Tua's power are either borberline retarded or are blind. Watch Tua's KO's he's clearly 1 of the biggest HW hitters ever. Do you muppets actually watch fights, watch Tua's brutal KO's over big men and find me footage that shows Walcott/Layne/Moore hit nearly as brutally, that power that leaves a man brutally knocked cold.

YEs Ruiz has a shit chin, thats why no one could KO him except Tua, not Haye, Holyfield, Valuev, Chageav, Rahman, Toney, Jones, Golota, Kirk Johnson, McCline. Rahman has been KO'd by others, but only big punchers. Moorer/Maskeev didn't have the best chin in the world, but the manner of the KO was sick. Sullivan was out cold in the first with Tua and had previously taken Vitali 9 and wasn't stopped by Klitschko, he quit

Let me turn the question around on you 'who did Marciano KO that had an iron chin' there's Louis, but he was ancient by then and already stopped by an ex LHW. Practically all Rocky's opponents had been KO'd quicker by other men. And I'm not saying Rocky wasn't a puncher, but your logic is borderline retarded, now go and fuck your cucumber

So I went over the top. That deliberately naff post of mine is exactly what a number of genuine posts on this thread look like, though it wasn't really directed at you, but nevermind. I expected no less.

It's fairly common knowledge that Tua (whose power for your information I actually greatly respect and didn't question) hits harder than Vitali with one punch. No question, so bringing up the Sullivan fight as a legitimate example of Tua's power at the very highest level....nah, sorry. Not convinced. There's a difference between stopping middle of the road types who are made for you and stopping the best. Tua has real power, granted. Just not to the astronomical level his fans seem to think, and certainly not to the point where people are using examples of Marciano suffering flash knockdowns against some of the greatest hitters in the history of the sport are evidence to suggest that Tua would starch him.

And how many really big hitters other than perhaps Rahman (whose general skillset and pure power are both overrated anyway) has Ruiz faced since the Tua KO all those years ago? Maybe David Haye, against whom he was pulled out, regardless of his age or the deterioration of his already limited abilities. Ruiz's chin is far from bad, but it isn't absolute top drawer. His ugly, mauling style got him by more than his chin did IMO.

And Marciano beat down a fair few durable men, probably more at a glance than Tua has anyway. Moore, Layne, Matthews, LaStarza, Charles and Walcott were durable at the highest level even if they did suffer the odd KO loss - unsurprising for the era they fought in. You could even make an argument that everal of the men he stopped who had displayed considerable durability prior to facing him, such as Layne, were never the same afterwards punch resistance-wise. It happens.

Is that 'logic' good enough for you? Or is too retarded?

[Tin_Ribs]

Your statement really needs no response. It speaks for itself.

I could well say the same for plenty of the opinions you post on here chum. And I was being sarcastic.

[lefthook31]

So I went over the top. That deliberately naff post of mine is exactly what a number of genuine posts on this thread look like, though it wasn't really directed at you, but nevermind. I expected no less.

It's fairly common knowledge that Tua (whose power for your information I actually greatly respect and didn't question) hits harder than Vitali with one punch. No question, so bringing up the Sullivan fight as a legitimate example of Tua's power at the very highest level....nah, sorry. Not convinced. There's a difference between stopping middle of the road types who are made for you and stopping the best. Tua has real power, granted. Just not to the astronomical level his fans seem to think, and certainly not to the point where people are using examples of Marciano suffering flash knockdowns against some of the greatest hitters in the history of the sport are evidence to suggest that Tua would starch him.

And how many really big hitters other than perhaps Rahman (whose general skillset and pure power are both overrated anyway) has Ruiz faced since the Tua KO all those years ago? Maybe David Haye, against whom he was pulled out, regardless of his age or the deterioration of his already limited abilities. Ruiz's chin is far from bad, but it isn't absolute top drawer. His ugly, mauling style got him by more than his chin did IMO.

And Marciano beat down a fair few durable men, probably more at a glance than Tua has anyway. Moore, Layne, Matthews, LaStarza, Charles and Walcott were durable at the highest level even if they did suffer the odd KO loss - unsurprising for the era they fought in. You could even make an argument that everal of the men he stopped who had displayed considerable durability prior to facing him, such as Layne, were never the same afterwards punch resistance-wise. It happens.

Is that 'logic' good enough for you? Or is too retarded?
So styles and physical size have absolutely no bearing? It only matters that their skill level was far superior to Tua's? Nah, at some point the size factor starts to take over. Were not talking about elusive fighters or even range fighters. Were talking about fighters who mix it up and take a few to give a few. Thats where the difference is. Noone is denying those fighters are great and have all the accomplishments of ATG's, but that doesnt make them invincible against solid top tier fighters who outweigh them by 50 plus pounds and punch as hard or harder than anything they've faced. You cant comment on how Tua would have done against an ATG pressure fighter because he never faced one. Their styles are a far cry from a 6'5 250 pound range fighter. At some point size, power, and the biggest one, "style" start to offset skillset.

[he grant]

[quote=The Mongoose;7027978]-At 250 Tua was lethargic and grossly overweight. 225 was probably his best weight.


-He was floored by Walcott the same way Tua was floored by Rahman. Walcott connected with much better punches later in the fight, mostly straight rights as Rocky was difficult to time clean with his signature left hooks and uppercuts because of his stance and high right hand......which worries me about Tua's chances. His tendancy to shell up and wait for his turn to punch instead of looking for counters is also cause for concern against a guy who has been described as a boat motor.

Wrong. Tua was caught off balance when he was exhausted and ready to collaspe at the end of the 12th v.s. Rachman. He was fat and over weight for the bout. This was like Foreman going down against Young. Marciano was fresh and was dropped by Walcott who landed a good shot flush. Completely different senario.

[he grant]

I could well say the same for plenty of the opinions you post on here chum. And I was being sarcastic.

No harm done Nib-Lets ...

[he grant]

Anyone else pick Roland Lastarza to make David Tua look silly? think Chris Byrd.

Other than in your fantasies of romanticising Marciano opponents, how do you get off drawing rational comparisons between what Byrd accomplished and LaStarza's career ? Stick with the weathered versions of Charles/Walcott/Moore ... your propping up of Louis, Layne and now LaStarza is really silly. It undermines your credibility ... what's next ? I'm waiting for the credits of the legendary Cockell ...

[The Mongoose]

[quote=The Mongoose;7027978]

Wrong. Tua was caught off balance when he was exhausted and ready to collaspe at the end of the 12th v.s. Rachman. He was fat and over weight for the bout. This was like Foreman going down against Young. Marciano was fresh and was dropped by Walcott who landed a good shot flush. Completely different senario.

So you back at it again...I will respond to you just this one time.

Excuses are irrelevant, Maricano was caught cold in the first round after a ref break with his feet out of position. So what? Both instances you have a fighter knocked down by a punch they weren't expecting but still clearly not hurt. The point is that neither instance is a proper guage of the fighter's stability and proven punch resistance.

[PowerPuncher]

So I went over the top. That deliberately naff post of mine is exactly what a number of genuine posts on this thread look like, though it wasn't really directed at you, but nevermind. I expected no less.

It's fairly common knowledge that Tua (whose power for your information I actually greatly respect and didn't question) hits harder than Vitali with one punch. No question, so bringing up the Sullivan fight as a legitimate example of Tua's power at the very highest level....nah, sorry. Not convinced. There's a difference between stopping middle of the road types who are made for you and stopping the best. Tua has real power, granted. Just not to the astronomical level his fans seem to think, and certainly not to the point where people are using examples of Marciano suffering flash knockdowns against some of the greatest hitters in the history of the sport are evidence to suggest that Tua would starch him.

And how many really big hitters other than perhaps Rahman (whose general skillset and pure power are both overrated anyway) has Ruiz faced since the Tua KO all those years ago? Maybe David Haye, against whom he was pulled out, regardless of his age or the deterioration of his already limited abilities. Ruiz's chin is far from bad, but it isn't absolute top drawer. His ugly, mauling style got him by more than his chin did IMO.

And Marciano beat down a fair few durable men, probably more at a glance than Tua has anyway. Moore, Layne, Matthews, LaStarza, Charles and Walcott were durable at the highest level even if they did suffer the odd KO loss - unsurprising for the era they fought in. You could even make an argument that everal of the men he stopped who had displayed considerable durability prior to facing him, such as Layne, were never the same afterwards punch resistance-wise. It happens.

Is that 'logic' good enough for you? Or is too retarded?

Firstly I'll apologise if I came off offensive or overly harsh

I think I gave some pretty good examples of Tua stopping durable fighters, destroying fighters faster and more brutally than other puncher. Haye was a concussive puncher at 200lbs, even against the HW Bonin, but he couldn't replicate what Tua did by KO'ing Ruiz

You are discrediting the Sullivan KO, saying 'well we know Tua hits harder than Vitali', well isn't that an achievement in itself? And significantly harder to boot

Look at what Tua did to Moorer, Foreman/Holyfield weren't close to doing that to Moorer. Rahman has been ko'd a couple of times by Maskeev/Lewis, but Tua did it first, Wlad could only TKO a shot Rahman.

Yes Marciano stopped some durable guys, I don't think Charles/Walcott/Moore were too durable though chin wise. And Marciano rarely left an opponent knocked cold like Tua did, this is a big difference in their power and its not because. Not many have that sort of 'leaving them cold' type power, its sick and I don't see Marciano as that type of puncher

1 point we may disagree on is the weight issue. The bigger men tend to have better chins and hit harder on average. So Tua stopping bigger men is often harder to do. Moorer/Charles/Marciano are great P4P for their weight but against big men they would really be up against it

My initially post outlined how I saw the fight going, if Marciano can take the power or somehow slip and beat Tua to the punch and back him up, he can win. I just have my doubts on him taking Tua's power.

I'd add this match up isn't entired fair to Marciano, his era was different, Tua has the benefit of nutrition/bulking/sports science to build him into a bigger stronger man

[Son of Gaul]

So styles and physical size have absolutely no bearing? It only matters that their skill level was far superior to Tua's? Nah, at some point the size factor starts to take over. Were not talking about elusive fighters or even range fighters. Were talking about fighters who mix it up and take a few to give a few. Thats where the difference is. Noone is denying those fighters are great and have all the accomplishments of ATG's, but that doesnt make them invincible against solid top tier fighters who outweigh them by 50 plus pounds and punch as hard or harder than anything they've faced. You cant comment on how Tua would have done against an ATG pressure fighter because he never faced one. Their styles are a far cry from a 6'5 250 pound range fighter. At some point size, power, and the biggest one, "style" start to offset skillset.

Exactly...at some point, overwhelming physical advantages have to play a role. Tua would outweigh Marciano by at least 40 lbs and , surprisingly, would hold a p4p strength advantage as well. Marciano would still have that vaunted one punch KO power but Tua matches him here as well due to the sheer force of his punches.
One scenario that could play into Marciano's favor is if he's somehow able to weather Tua's 3-4 round storm and simply outlast him the old fashioned way. Wars of attrition would always play into Marciano's hands...

[SuzieQ49]

Other than in your fantasies of romanticising Marciano opponents, how do you get off drawing rational comparisons between what Byrd accomplished and LaStarza's career ? Stick with the weathered versions of Charles/Walcott/Moore ... your propping up of Louis, Layne and now LaStarza is really silly. It undermines your credibility ... what's next ? I'm waiting for the credits of the legendary Cockell ...


Both Byrd and Lastarza were ring magazine # 1 contenders. Both were slick defensive counterpunchers. The comparison is Valid.

If I can be accused of overrating Marciano and Liston's opposition by you, then you can be critisized for underrating Liston and Marciano's opposition. So it works both ways.


Why don't you tell us about that Luis Angel Firpo. What a "Murderous" puncher he was :lol:

[SuzieQ49]

Other than in your fantasies of romanticising Marciano opponents, how do you get off drawing rational comparisons between what Byrd accomplished and LaStarza's career ? Stick with the weathered versions of Charles/Walcott/Moore ... your propping up of Louis, Layne and now LaStarza is really silly. It undermines your credibility ... what's next ? I'm waiting for the credits of the legendary Cockell ...


Both Byrd and Lastarza were ring magazine # 1 contenders. Both were slick defensive counterpunchers. The comparison is Valid. I am actually heavily critical of Lastarza ducking top fighters like Henry, Baker, Valdes, Charles, Moore...but I do think well of him h2h.

If I can be accused of overrating Marciano and Liston's opposition by you, then you can be critisized for underrating Liston and Marciano's opposition. So it works both ways.


Why don't you tell us about that Luis Angel Firpo. What a "Murderous" puncher he was :lol: LOL Zora Folley would make Firpo look foolish.

[SuzieQ49]

. And Marciano rarely left an opponent knocked cold like Tua did,

What Ring Magazine top 10 fighters did Tua knockout cold the way the way Marciano did to Jersey Joe Walcott, Rex Layne, and Joe Louis? I challenge you here. Marciano knocked 3 Ring Magazine contenders out cold...to the point where Layne, Louis, and Walcott would not have gotten up if the count reached 50.

Ruiz was not rated top 10 by Ring Magazine, Rahman was knocked out very controversially, Maskaev would have been fine by the count of 50...

[Bummy Davis]

Anyone else pick Roland Lastarza to make David Tua look silly? think Chris Byrd.


Not to mention JJWalcott ... the Jeff Wooden fight exposed a lot of Tua's slowness and lack of condition...the Bird fight that he can be outboxed and stunned by a pinpoint puncher

[flamengo]

Tua over Marciano easily. This aint rocket science or disrespect.

[lefthook31]

Exactly...at some point, overwhelming physical advantages have to play a role. Tua would outweigh Marciano by at least 40 lbs and , surprisingly, would hold a p4p strength advantage as well. Marciano would still have that vaunted one punch KO power but Tua matches him here as well due to the sheer force of his punches.
One scenario that could play into Marciano's favor is if he's somehow able to weather Tua's 3-4 round storm and simply outlast him the old fashioned way. Wars of attrition would always play into Marciano's hands...
I only say this too because of the style matchup. We saw what a defensive elusive fighter could do to Tua, but were talking about two fighters that are going to stand in each others faces and swing for the fences.

[The Mongoose]

Both Byrd and Lastarza were ring magazine # 1 contenders. Both were slick defensive counterpunchers. The comparison is Valid. I am actually heavily critical of Lastarza ducking top fighters like Henry, Baker, Valdes, Charles, Moore...but I do think well of him h2h.

If I can be accused of overrating Marciano and Liston's opposition by you, then you can be critisized for underrating Liston and Marciano's opposition. So it works both ways.


Why don't you tell us about that Luis Angel Firpo. What a "Murderous" puncher he was :lol: LOL Zora Folley would make Firpo look foolish.

I think LaStarza was in all fairness a bit better than Byrd. Prior to facing Marciano he had never been stopped and was a complete offensive fighter at that stage, having developed a good uppercut and knocking the 6'2" Bucceroni down 5 times. I can't recall Byrd ever doing that to a top 5 fighter, especially a big strong sturdy one.

[SuzieQ49]

I watched Lastarza-Marciano II on ESPN classic last night. Lastarza had some serious defensive skills, and in and out movement. Such a shame he didn't test his talent against Joe Louis, Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Nino Valdes, Clarence Henry, or Bob Baker.

[TheGreatA]

LaStarza was decent but I wonder how he would handle the difference in size. I'd take Walcott to make Tua look bad though.

It's possible that Tua can compete with Frazier and Marciano because of styles and his size advantage, but overall he's nowhere near as great. All good boxers made him look bad and he had no dedication.

[SuzieQ49]

Good Point GreatA. Tua could have caught Lastarza at anytime late in the fight and knocked him out. Tua had rare late clutch power. But again, it was non existent against a defensive counterpuncher like Byrd who moved.

I don't rate Lastarza too highly because of his lack of fights against some of the 1950s best, but I do think the potential was there. But we don't rate on potential do we?

[TheGreatA]

Good Point GreatA. Tua could have caught Lastarza at anytime late in the fight and knocked him out. Tua had rare late clutch power. But again, it was non existent against a defensive counterpuncher like Byrd who moved.

I don't rate Lastarza too highly because of his lack of fights against some of the 1950s best, but I do think the potential was there. But we don't rate on potential do we?

Byrd was surprisingly able to move Tua by hitting him to the body. I'm sure Tua would not enjoy fighting Marciano and Frazier for that reason.

[lefthook31]

Byrd was surprisingly able to move Tua by hitting him to the body. I'm sure Tua would not enjoy fighting Marciano and Frazier for that reason.
I would have liked to see Byrd in with Tua around the time (shortly before) Tua fought Ike. I think it would have been a different fight myself.

[TheGreatA]

I would have liked to see Byrd in with Tua around the time (shortly before) Tua fought Ike. I think it would have been a different fight myself.

Possibly, but only 2 fights after losing to Ike he looked average at best against Wooden.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[he grant]

Both Byrd and Lastarza were ring magazine # 1 contenders. Both were slick defensive counterpunchers. The comparison is Valid.

If I can be accused of overrating Marciano and Liston's opposition by you, then you can be critisized for underrating Liston and Marciano's opposition. So it works both ways.


Why don't you tell us about that Luis Angel Firpo. What a "Murderous" puncher he was :lol:

Good post ... how long have you been in special ed ?

[he grant]

LaStarza was decent but I wonder how he would handle the difference in size. I'd take Walcott to make Tua look bad though.

It's possible that Tua can compete with Frazier and Marciano because of styles and his size advantage, but overall he's nowhere near as great. All good boxers made him look bad and he had no dedication.

The thread is not overall greatness ... the thread is head to head clash between the fighters ...

[TheGreatA]

The thread is not overall greatness ... the thread is head to head clash between the fighters ...

Obviously, but it should be pointed out that while Tua may match up well against Frazier and Marciano, he doesn't match up as well against clever boxers unlike Frazier and Marciano.

[Son of Gaul]

Obviously, but it should be pointed out that while Tua may match up well against Frazier and Marciano, he doesn't match up as well against clever boxers unlike Frazier and Marciano.

Good point, although I believe Frazier matches up much better against clever boxers than Marciano does because he is a far more precise power puncher despite the similarities in style. This is undoubtedly due to Frazier's extensive amateur background.
May I also add that I believe Frazier matches up better with Tua than people are giving him credit for...He stands a far better chance than Rocky to outlast and outwork Tua to a late stoppage or decision.

[SuzieQ49]

Good post ... how long have you been in special ed ?

:lama

[SuzieQ49]

..He stands a far better chance than Rocky to outlast and outwork Tua to a late stoppage or decision.

Disagree. Rocky matches up a lot better against punches than Frazier does. Rocky was stronger, had two knockout hands, and I believe had a better chin. Marciano was also a lot more patient than frazier was, as he got very low in that crouch and would cooly and collectively work his way in as he dipped slipped ducked in the crouch. Frazier was more aggresive he would move in the same way everytime bobbing and weaving..He would never stay back and map out the situation. I think this works against frazier vs punchers. Rocky with his two fisted power, strength, durability, low unpredictable crouch matches him better vs punchers than joe.

I think Joe's superior speed and sharpness allow him to match up better vs boxers than Marciano. but joe did not match up well against punchers at all.

[Son of Gaul]

Disagree. Rocky matches up a lot better against punches than Frazier does. Rocky was stronger, had two knockout hands, and I believe had a better chin. Marciano was also a lot more patient than frazier was, as he got very low in that crouch and would cooly and collectively work his way in as he dipped slipped ducked in the crouch. Frazier was more aggresive he would move in the same way everytime bobbing and weaving..He would never stay back and map out the situation. I think this works against frazier vs punchers. Rocky with his two fisted power, strength, durability, low unpredictable crouch matches him better vs punchers than joe.

I think Joe's superior speed and sharpness allow him to match up better vs boxers than Marciano. but joe did not match up well against punchers at all.

Good, logical argument...the only point I'll disagree on is the strength variable. I'm really not sure Marciano is stronger than Frazier, in fact I think it's pretty clear that Frazier's stronger than The Rock.

[PetethePrince]

I think Frazier matches up better with boxers. I think Marciano matches up better with someone like Tua than Frazier would. Frazier could very well out-finesse and show great lateral boxing swarming ability to neutralize Tua, but Marciano has certain attributes that may keep him in it better. I mean if Bonavena can put Frazier in serious danger... I just feel Marciano durability gives him a better hope. The two-punching power aspect helps too.

[janitor]

Good, logical argument...the only point I'll disagree on is the strength variable. I'm really not sure Marciano is stronger than Frazier, in fact I think it's pretty clear that Frazier's stronger than The Rock.

I have to disagree.

Marciano was probably one of the most physicaly strong 190lb fighters of all time, while Frazier almost seems to have been a fighter of unexceptional physical strength for his body weight.

If it was a wrestling match then I know who my money would be on.

[SuzieQ49]

I'm really not sure Marciano is stronger than Frazier, in fact I think it's pretty clear that Frazier's stronger than The Rock.

Why is that? Rocky's strength actually might have been his best asset. He was so freakishly strong. Freakishly. Frazier wasn't all that strong. Frazier was more Fast Fast speed than strength. Rocky was all strength.

[The Mongoose]

Frazier got muscled around by Quarry so bad, he almost went through the ropes in the first round of their initial meeting.

[SuzieQ49]

Wasn't there some strength contest frazier entered in and he posted embarrasingly low scores?

[PowerPuncher]

Wasn't there some strength contest frazier entered in and he posted embarrasingly low scores?

Weight lifting, which is largely due to poor technique, Marciano likely does just as badly

[janitor]

Weight lifting, which is largely due to poor technique, Marciano likely does just as badly

I like Marciano's chances of making it across the pool.

[PowerPuncher]

Why is that? Rocky's strength actually might have been his best asset. He was so freakishly strong. Freakishly. Frazier wasn't all that strong. Frazier was more Fast Fast speed than strength. Rocky was all strength.

In the clinches he was getting pushed back by 190lb Layne

[SuzieQ49]

Marciano dominated Layne in the clinches....Layne was considered one of the strongest fighters in the division at the time. Layne backed walcott to the ropes all night long. Marciano just physically dominated layne in the trenches and by round 4, layne had to switch to fighting rock on the outside. Layne couldn't move the Rock.

[SuzieQ49]

Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, Joe Louis all called Marciano "Far and away the strongest fighter i ever fought". Most of these men did not call him the hardest hitter, but they were fascinated by his strength.

[The Mongoose]

In the clinches he was getting pushed back by 190lb Layne

Layne out weighed Marciano by over 8 lbs and was over six feet tall, he was known for his strength. I think he pushed Rocky back a few times but utlimately he was the one overpowered most of the fight. His plan to overpower the Rock was a failure.

In contrast, Frazier outweighed Quarry and was the naturally bigger man, he was backed up repeatedly and as mentioned, nearly went through the ropes at one point. Quarry successfully overpowered Frazier.....he just couldn't do anything else.

[SuzieQ49]

Rocky also pushed back Joe Louis on film. Louis had a 30lb weight advantage on the rock.

[PowerPuncher]

Marciano dominated Layne in the clinches....Layne was considered one of the strongest fighters in the division at the time. Layne backed walcott to the ropes all night long. Marciano just physically dominated layne in the trenches and by round 4, layne had to switch to fighting rock on the outside. Layne couldn't move the Rock.

Does your bias know no bounds, Layne was constantly pushing Rocky back in the early going, Marciano's in fighting was far far better and he beat but he still got pushed back plenty

[SuzieQ49]

Does your bias know no bounds, Layne was constantly pushing Rocky back in the early going, Marciano's in fighting was far far better and he beat but he still got pushed back plenty


Don't talk about Bias. You think Roy Jones had a better left hook than Sugar Ray Robinson :lol:

Watch the tapes again. Layne was not constantly pushing Marciano back. Layne may have pushed him back a few times, but like mongoose said, Rocky was the one dominating Layne on the inside, overpowering him during the first 4 rounds. It was rocky's brute strength on the inside which caused layne to abandon his plan by round 5, and attempt to switch to the outside to box the rock. Layne was young, and he was bigger than Rocky. Frazier got pushed back multiple times by Quarry, who was smaller than he.

[Bummy Davis]

People dont realize the strength of Marciano he was a freak. Marciano power was measured back in the 50's and they recently did a test on 6"6 245lb Vladimir Klitschko (who is the premier 2-fisted puncher today)and they were close. Imagine that, Marciano weighed 190lbs before he took his morning crap. The man was a Rock-boned freak and all of his opponents say his taps hurt more then some guys Bombs....he was the exception to the rule and tie that in with great stamina, great recuperative powers and HEART and he becomes a uphill battle...Today I see him a bigger, stronger man but if we took Dave back to the 50's he may not have the help of muscle aids and Dave is an inch or 2 shorter than Rocky who was 5"11, I know a lot try and make him shorter and it does not mean anything but there was a photo with him and some guy I know who was 5"10 and Rocky was noticeably taller. On the other hand I have seen one with Tyson and a fight guy I know and Mike looks around 5"9...does it matter, NO

[SuzieQ49]

Rocky's strength was his best asset. There I said it. Better than his power, stamina, heart, etc. He was a freak strength wise. Every friggin opponent he fought called him by far the strongest they fought, and some of them fought some very muscular 220lb fighters.

[PowerPuncher]

Layne out weighed Marciano by over 8 lbs and was over six feet tall, he was known for his strength. I think he pushed Rocky back a few times but utlimately he was the one overpowered most of the fight. His plan to overpower the Rock was a failure.

In contrast, Frazier outweighed Quarry and was the naturally bigger man, he was backed up repeatedly and as mentioned, nearly went through the ropes at one point. Quarry successfully overpowered Frazier.....he just couldn't do anything else.

WOW a whole 8lbs, Frazier would have 20lbs on him. Yes Marciano outfought him and beat him up and was the better puncher, we were talking about who was the stronger and Layne was pushing him back quite a bit and shoving him around

I seem to remember Frazier having Quarry on the ropes for the majority of their first fight after the first round

[Bummy Davis]

Rocky's strength was his best asset. There I said it. Better than his power, stamina, heart, etc. He was a freak strength wise. Every friggin opponent he fought called him by far the strongest they fought, and some of them fought some very muscular 220lb fighters.

Suzie, you are right Key word is FREAK or gifted but either way he was freakishly gifted

[SuzieQ49]

Imagine that, Marciano weighed 190lbs before he took his morning crap.

Rocky actually naturally weighed around 210lb.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[PowerPuncher]

Don't talk about Bias. You think Roy Jones had a better left hook than Sugar Ray Robinson :lol:

Watch the tapes again. Layne was not constantly pushing Marciano back. Layne may have pushed him back a few times, but like mongoose said, Rocky was the one dominating Layne on the inside, overpowering him during the first 4 rounds. It was rocky's brute strength on the inside which caused layne to abandon his plan by round 5, and attempt to switch to the outside to box the rock. Layne was young, and he was bigger than Rocky. Frazier got pushed back multiple times by Quarry, who was smaller than he.

Jones clearly has a better left hook than Robinson, its not up for debate. Just because Robinson was great doesn't mean he has the best left hook ever, his jab and his right were his best punches by far. Who's left hook was faster? Who trebbled it more? who's was shorter? Its Jones for all of those, Power wise its close

BACK TO ROCKY-LAYNE - We're not talking about the better in fighter, bigger puncher, those clearly goto Rocky, we're talking about who's stronger, who can push who around.

Mongoose seems to be as much of a fan of Rocky and his Era as yourself. I'm not a fan of Rocky or Frazier so I can claim impartiality. I think its a close call either way

[SuzieQ49]

and Layne was pushing him back quite a bit and shoving him around

You must have been watching a different fight than the rest of us.

[SuzieQ49]

I'm not a fan of Rocky

Why not? Because he defeated all those Black Murders Row fighters you Adore? Perhaps you should have more respect for him because of that

[PowerPuncher]

Rocky's strength was his best asset. There I said it. Better than his power, stamina, heart, etc. He was a freak strength wise. Every friggin opponent he fought called him by far the strongest they fought, and some of them fought some very muscular 220lb fighters.

His ability to fight was his best asset, not his strength, his ability to constantly land big well timed shots and the ability to choose the best shot, if he was around today most of the top50 would treat him like a rag doll in the clinches though.

You've wrestled, ever tried wrestling men 50-70lbs heavier?

[PowerPuncher]

Why not? Because he defeated all those Black Murders Row fighters you Adore? Perhaps you should have more respect for him because of that

I am actually a fan of Rocky to an extent, just not a rabid fan with bias, his is not my favourate style, I prefer his style and skill to Fraziers though in truth. Frazier's weight and speed advantages are going to be significant factors though imo

[SuzieQ49]

You've wrestled, ever tried wrestling men 50-70lbs heavier?

Yes. I know many 189lb wrestlers who were stronger than heavyweight wrestlers. When you get to the olymics the weight becomes a big factor because everyones a freak then....but in boxing its only clinching. It's a lot easier to fight with a bigger man in a clinch than it is to have him sprawl all his weigh on you when you shoot his legs. There are physical freaks at 220-250lb and i would dub them stronger than marciano, but only a handful. Not very many.

Also according to you, Rocky could take creatine now a days and come in the ring at a ripped to threds 205-210lb. Then no one would hold a strength advantage on him.

[SuzieQ49]

I am actually a fan of Rocky to an extent, just not a rabid fan with bias, his is not my favourate style, I prefer his style and skill to Fraziers though in truth. Frazier's weight and speed advantages are going to be significant factors though imo

I am a fan of Roy Jones jr. Actually a big fan. I own his whole set. I rate him highly. But I don't like the way he never fought Benn, Mccellan, Eubank, Collins, DM. That to me is not fighting the best of your era.

[ticar]

rocky's best weight was 185-190.if his best weight weight was 210,he would fight with 210.

[The Mongoose]

WOW a whole 8lbs, Frazier would have 20lbs on him. Yes Marciano outfought him and beat him up and was the better puncher, we were talking about who was the stronger and Layne was pushing him back quite a bit and shoving him around

I seem to remember Frazier having Quarry on the ropes for the majority of their first fight after the first round

The point being that Frazier had a 6 lb advantage on Quarry and he was the one being drove backwards. Prime Frazier was 200-205, Marciano was 185-190. Eh, Could be 20 at the most, probably less though.

-I recall Layne having trouble moving Marciano, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and revisit the match when I get the chance.

-I believe Quarry started gassing after the second round, think in typical bad luck fashion he probably injured himsef too, think he busted his hand in the first round on the top of Frazier's head.

[SuzieQ49]

rocky's best weight was 185-190.if his best weight weight was 210,he would fight with 210.

If he were fighting today..he would fight at 205-210lb, not 185lb.

[ticar]

only on juice..

[SuzieQ49]

only on juice..


no. he was a natural 205lber


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__________________


All he needs is a little weight training/modern nutrition/supplements.

[he grant]

If he were fighting today..he would fight at 205-210lb, not 185lb.

And run a 4.2 forty !

[SuzieQ49]

And run a 4.2 forty !

He wasn't a natural 185lber


[Only registered and activated users can see links]



You constantly underrate Marciano and Liston. Just because they were from the 50s.

[he grant]

He wasn't a natural 185lber


[Only registered and activated users can see links]



You constantly underrate Marciano and Liston. Just because they were from the 50s.

You really are nutty ... I'm a huge Liston fan and supporter .. I also love Rocky, I'm just not in love with Rocky .. slight difference .. :lol: I happen to think Marciano fought at the best weight for him to succeed as he did. He was slope shouldered, he did not have a big frame. The weight he fough at allowed him to maximize his skill set. He did have terrific stamina that he would not have had with an unatural 15 or 20 pounds on him. He also would have been slower and easier to hit. Rocky at 187 or so was a killer cruiserweight and one of the toughest pound for pound fighters that ever lived.

[ticar]

suzie if he fought at 185,that's his best fighting weight.he had the best speed,stamina etc with 185 lbs.
if his best fighting weight was 205,he would fight at 205.
that's like saying wlads best weight is 260 because he maybe weights that much "offseason",but his best weight is light 240.
rocky probably did weight about 200 lbs offseason,but training for fights he was 185,the best weight for him
he grant,that's it :happy

[SuzieQ49]

You really are nutty ... I'm a huge Liston fan and supporter .. I also love Rocky, I'm just not in love with Rocky .. slight difference .. :lol: I happen to think Marciano fought at the best weight for him to succeed as he did. He was slope shouldered, he did not have a big frame. The weight he fough at allowed him to maximize his skill set. He did have terrific stamina that he would not have had with an unatural 15 or 20 pounds on him. He also would have been slower and easier to hit. Rocky at 187 or so was a killer cruiserweight and one of the toughest pound for pound fighters that ever lived.

Would u favor cruiserweights david haye, carlos de leon, tomasz adamek over him?

[The Mongoose]

no. he was a natural 205lber


[Only registered and activated users can see links]
__________________


All he needs is a little weight training/modern nutrition/supplements.


I agree. I don't think Marciano getting a professional trainer to put 10 lbs of muscle on him would suddenly turn him into a ponderous blob with no stamina.

Had Rocky fought in the modern era he would most likely consider putting on weight and fighting over 200 lbs at some point. Like every other successful cruiser before him; Holyfield, Moorer, Gomez, Adamek, he would pack on the pounds one way or another and go after the big money.

[SuzieQ49]

Exactly. Why would Rocky stay in the cruiserweight division today? who is there? All the big names end up moving up.

[The Mongoose]

Exactly. Why would Rocky stay in the cruiserweight division today? who is there? All the big names end up moving up.

I suppose he'd probably fight J. Johnson, Dempsey, Louis, Langford, Walcott, and all those other under 200 lb sloped shoulder guys that would turn into lethargic jelly if they tired to put on enough weight to compete with the modern giants of today.

[Son of Gaul]

I have to disagree.

Marciano was probably one of the most physicaly strong 190lb fighters of all time, while Frazier almost seems to have been a fighter of unexceptional physical strength for his body weight.

If it was a wrestling match then I know who my money would be on.

Please reference Joe Frazier's back width and leg circumference...I promise you that Joe Frazier's legs are extraordinarily strong...

[SuzieQ49]

I suppose he'd probably fight J. Johnson, Dempsey, Louis, Langford, Walcott, and all those other under 200 lb sloped shoulder guys that would turn into lethargic jelly if they tired to put on enough weight to compete with the modern giants of today.

:lol:

[tommygun711]

If Haye and Holyfield can move up from cruiserweight to heavyweight, why can't Rocky?
Holyfield and Haye are both great athletes, like Rocky, but they have modern advantages like the modern supplements and weights. I think he would have no trouble moving up in weight. Espescially since Rocky was such a great athlete, I bet he could do it no problem.

[Seamus]

Please reference Joe Frazier's back width and leg circumference...I promise you that Joe Frazier's legs are extraordinarily strong...

For a guy who could not military press 120 pounds, not a techinically difficult lift or a weight that requires much strength...

Frazier had stamina in spades but brute strength... not so much.

[The Mongoose]

The point being that Frazier had a 6 lb advantage on Quarry and he was the one being drove backwards. Prime Frazier was 200-205, Marciano was 185-190. Eh, Could be 20 at the most, probably less though.

-I recall Layne having trouble moving Marciano, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and revisit the match when I get the chance.

-I believe Quarry started gassing after the second round, think in typical bad luck fashion he probably injured himsef too, think he busted his hand in the first round on the top of Frazier's head.

Sigh...

At any rate, here's Layne attempting to muscle Maricano. He almost puts him on the ropes once but he struggles most of the round to move him. Rocky gamely wrestles the bigger man, constantly shoving Layne off and creating room for his punches.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]



Now here's the lighter Quarry pushing Frazier where ever he wants him before tiring. Smoking Joe is forced to fight off his back foot most of the first two rounds, and nearly goes through the ropes in the opening seconds as has no footing.

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[RockyJim]

Lefthook31...You keep talking about Marciano's weight.....remember...he trained his ass off...like no fighter before or sense...to get himself down to 189lbs...

[Doc Dynamo]

If Haye and Holyfield can move up from cruiserweight to heavyweight, why can't Rocky?


Was he afraid of needles?

[lefthook31]

Lefthook31...You keep talking about Marciano's weight.....remember...he trained his ass off...like no fighter before or sense...to get himself down to 189lbs...
Tua trained his ass off to get to 235, he probably walks around at 260-270, whats your point? The weight factor is still huge.

[reznick]

this poll is disappointing

[janitor]

Tua trained his ass off to get to 235, he probably walks around at 260-270, whats your point? The weight factor is still huge.

Tua was not a well conditioned fighter even at 220 lbs.

I guess that if he had got into the kind of shape Marciano was in he would have been 205-210 lbs with the use of weights.

The size disparity is not nearly as great as people think.

[janitor]

There is no 5'10 180 pound fighter who could beat a true heavyweight dumb dumbs so stop making these stupid ass Rocky Maricano threads.

Well history clearly proves otherwise.

[Jear]

If Haye and Holyfield can move up from cruiserweight to heavyweight, why can't Rocky?



Both being 6'2"-6'3" probably helped a bit and the longer time between weigh in and fight time allowed them to drain a lot more and come in the ring a lot heavier

[hobgoblin]

i don't think it has to do with race...it's about a proven champion...and i'm not white or black...

yes, i understand the mentality people have. david tua has a good chin and great power. rocky is no boxer. it's a crash of two trains and the one with more power and durability wins. but c'mon, rocky was no slurpee. he could hit too. and he had heart. and he was a proven tough guy. he could eke out victories when in tough spots. i can't say the same for tua.

on paper tua seems competitive but overall the smart money is on marciano.

[MAG1965]

Tua at his size vs. Marciano? I do not think this would last one round.

[SuzieQ49]

For people who don't think rocky with modern nutrition/weight lifting could have come in at 205lb today..they are sorely mistaken.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
They are saying rocky weighes a TRIM 194lb here


Rocky was a natural 205-210lb..he cut a lot of weight to get down to 185lb. Today..rocky would go after the big prize..the heavyweight title. He would hire a personel physical trainer that would allow him to come into the ring at a chizzled 205lb without the loss of speed or stamina. Just like ALL of the great cruiserweights since 1990 have done. Why is rock the one exception?

Why would rocky stay at cruiserweight? to fight goof trooper steven cunningham?

[tommygun711]

Tua doesn't like it to the body. rocky TKO in a brawl.

[Jear]

Tua was not a well conditioned fighter even at 220 lbs.

I guess that if he had got into the kind of shape Marciano was in he would have been 205-210 lbs with the use of weights.

The size disparity is not nearly as great as people think.

Tua set punch output records in consecutive fights around this weight id say he was pretty well conditioned.

[frankenfrank]

Well history clearly proves otherwise.

This poll is diappointing because some many racially biased Marciano fans keep putting him up people superior to him and picking him because of his race.

Quarry pushed Frazier back some? And Quarry would push Marciano back some and then knock him on his ass so what is your point?

Marciano trained to get down to 180 pounds? Marciano was only 5'10 if that so if he walked around weighing 220 then he walked around out of shape. A in shape Tua was 220. If Marciano thought he was in shape at 220 he would of stayed that weight. He was 180 pounds because that was his natural weight.

Holyfield was 6'2 so he had height, David Haye is 6'3 I believe so again he has the height to move up and Holyfield was on roids and Haye might be on them on well. There is no
5'10 180 pound fighter who could beat a true heavyweight dumb dumbs so stop making these stupid ass Rocky Maricano threads.
So it doesn't.

[slicksouthpaw16]

Maybe because Maskaev was boxing him as opposed to slugging, and Ibeabuchi and Tua were trading shots from about 6 inches apart all night.

As for Rahman, he dropped Tua on his ass right after the bell in their second fight.
Outside of that shot (which was after the bell) Ive never seen Tua hurt in the pro's. I'd take the in shape Tua that fought Ibeabuchi over Marciano ( and i don't think it would go that long). He hit too hard and was too strong IMO.

Any smaller swarmer would have massive problems with a banger like Tua ( who's only intent is to get inside and land big shots) and Marciano not only be there but he'd be wide open. I think people are using resume and all time greats stats to predict this fight instead of thinking styles.

[janitor]

Tua set punch output records in consecutive fights around this weight id say he was pretty well conditioned.

Yes but having a stone of surplus fat does not constitute a verry good physical advantage.

this is not a sumo wrestliung contest.

[lefthook31]

Tua was not a well conditioned fighter even at 220 lbs.

I guess that if he had got into the kind of shape Marciano was in he would have been 205-210 lbs with the use of weights.

The size disparity is not nearly as great as people think.
Thats just not true. I was in the gym with the guy when he came out of the olympics. I can tell you from frist hand experience, that he was in very good shape and trained very hard, up until the breakup of Main Events. Davids legs are the size of most peoples waists. He was just too big to ever be 205 once he turned pro.
The level of opposition that David faced climbing up the ranks was very very competitive. I cant think of any other heavyweight contender that faced the type of opposition he faced on their way to a title shot. Look at his record and fight schedule up to the Ibeabuchi fight. If your familiar with the top contenders of the period, it speaks for itself. Outside of his stablemate Golota, and Briggs who lost To Wilson and was knocked out by Tua in 1, Tua fought everyone!

[The Mongoose]

Thats just not true. I was in the gym with the guy when he came out of the olympics. I can tell you from frist hand experience, that he was in very good shape and trained very hard, up until the breakup of Main Events. Davids legs are the size of most peoples waists. He was just too big to ever be 205 once he turned pro.
The level of opposition that David faced climbing up the ranks was very very competitive. I cant think of any other heavyweight contender that faced the type of opposition he faced on their way to a title shot. Look at his record and fight schedule up to the Ibeabuchi fight. If your familiar with the top contenders of the period, it speaks for itself. Outside of his stablemate Golota, and Briggs who lost To Wilson and was knocked out by Tua in 1, Tua fought everyone!


I have to disagree there.

Of their class, Grant was the one that ran up the biggest wins on his way to the title. #8 ranked Golota was still considered a force, Savarese, Sullivan, Izon, Gonzalez, T-Rex Sanders, and Puritty. This is why he was ranked so much higher at the time, even if he turned out to be filled with hot air.

Tua ran a similar prospect gauntlet and looked less impressive against some of the same fighters like Izon and Wooden, with his biggest win on the way to the title being against the #10 Rahman. It is only retrospect that his resume looks better because people think of Rahman, Oleg, and Ruiz and the unexpected success they had years down the road.

Most recently, Wlad faced very tough competition before challenging for a real title. Byrd, McCline, Peter, Jefferson, Botha, Mercer, Shufford, Bostice,..etc.

In regards to topic at hand, Marciano beat three top 5 fighters on his way to the title in Louis, Layne, and Mathews in addition to fellow prospects like Vingo and LaStarza, also proven experienced tough guys like Lowry, Beshore, and Savold.

[lefthook31]

I have to disagree there.

Of their class, Grant was the one that ran up the biggest wins on his way to the title. #8 ranked Golota was still considered a force, Savarese, Sullivan, Izon, Gonzalez, T-Rex Sanders, and Puritty. This is why he was ranked so much higher at the time, even if he turned out to be filled with hot air.

Tua ran a similar prospect gauntlet and looked less impressive against some of the same fighters like Izon and Wooden, with his biggest win on the way to the title being against the #10 Rahman. It is only retrospect that his resume looks better because people think of Rahman, Oleg, and Ruiz and the unexpected success they had years down the road.

Most recently, Wlad faced very tough competition before challenging for a real title. Byrd, McCline, Peter, Jefferson, Botha, Mercer, Shufford, Bostice,..etc.

In regards to topic at hand, Marciano beat three top 5 fighters on his way to the title in Louis, Layne, and Mathews in addition to fellow prospects like Vingo and LaStarza, also proven experienced tough guys like Lowry, Beshore, and Savold.
Tuas comp was better than Grants.

[slicksouthpaw16]

Edit......................

[Seamus]

Thats just not true. I was in the gym with the guy when he came out of the olympics. I can tell you from frist hand experience, that he was in very good shape and trained very hard, up until the breakup of Main Events. Davids legs are the size of most peoples waists. He was just too big to ever be 205 once he turned pro.

Seconding this. I watched quite a bit of Tua early in his career, fights and training camp. He is naturally much larger than Marciano was, and he was in very, very good shape.

I don't see a stumpy, short limbed, slope-shouldered Marciano fighting 20 pounds over his former weight and being near as effective. He would be a great cruiser in the modern game, not a great heavy.

[he grant]

Seconding this. I watched quite a bit of Tua early in his career, fights and training camp. He is naturally much larger than Marciano was, and he was in very, very good shape.

I don't see a stumpy, short limbed, slope-shouldered Marciano fighting 20 pounds over his former weight and being near as effective. He would be a great cruiser in the modern game, not a great heavy.

Comparisons that these guys were close to the same size are way off ... Tua was a much broader man .. I was next to him once at a boxing writers function and could not believe the aura of power he gave off ... Marciano's best weight was 187 or so .. Tua was 228 or so ... Rocky at 210 is like Tua at 240 ...

[The Mongoose]

Tuas comp was better than Grants.


Roughly the same, the biggest difference being a huge step up win over the established top 10 regular Golota.


don't see a stumpy, short limbed, slope-shouldered Marciano fighting 20 pounds over his former weight and being near as effective. He would be a great cruiser in the modern game, not a great heavy.

Maricano looked fine teetering around 190, 10 or 15 lbs is not an unrealistic goal. Nobody that effective at 185-190 is staying in the barren cruiser division, especially when they don't have to worry about chasing guys like Charles and Moore around for 15 rounds. Its not as if he would be looking to jump from 170ish to 220 like Holyfield, he's already a few pounds away from the limit. Rocky also prepared for fights with a strict diet of steak and potatoes cause they didn't know better than....not ideal for carrying lean muscle mass.

Tua is a much bigger man though, bigger than Tyson even. But I don't think it will matter since Tua always waited for his opponent to quit throwing to open up himself...and he won't get that chance against Maricano or Frazier.

[kinski]

Tua is 2 big and strong 4 Marciano. Tua by Ko but Marciano shows a heart.

[SuzieQ49]

I don't see a stumpy, short limbed, slope-shouldered Marciano fighting 20 pounds over his former weight and being near as effective. He would be a great cruiser in the modern game, not a great heavy.

Ahhh I see. So every great modern light-H/cruiserweight can effectively put on 30-40lb of muscle and become highly competitive in the heavyweight division..but little puny Marciano cannot put on just 15lb and be competitive at 205lb. I guess if the guy actually substituted weight training for running 17 miles a day, perhaps he wouldn't have eaten away at all his muscle. But no, modern weight training/supplements/nutrition have no positive effect on rocky...but they do on everyone else. it's not like rocky naturally weighed 210lb and was very big boned :roll:

[SuzieQ49]

Maricano looked fine teetering around 190, 10 or 15 lbs is not an unrealistic goal. Nobody that effective at 185-190 is staying in the barren cruiser division, especially when they don't have to worry about chasing guys like Charles and Moore around for 15 rounds. Its not as if he would be looking to jump from 170ish to 220 like Holyfield, he's already a few pounds away from the limit.


Exactly. But hey...modern benefits have no positive effect on Marciano to posters out there. They do on every other cruiserweight though LOL

[lefthook31]

Roughly the same, the biggest difference being a huge step up win over the established top 10 regular Golota.


don't see a stumpy, short limbed, slope-shouldered Marciano fighting 20 pounds over his former weight and being near as effective. He would be a great cruiser in the modern game, not a great heavy.

Maricano looked fine teetering around 190, 10 or 15 lbs is not an unrealistic goal. Nobody that effective at 185-190 is staying in the barren cruiser division, especially when they don't have to worry about chasing guys like Charles and Moore around for 15 rounds. Its not as if he would be looking to jump from 170ish to 220 like Holyfield, he's already a few pounds away from the limit. Rocky also prepared for fights with a strict diet of steak and potatoes cause they didn't know better than....not ideal for carrying lean muscle mass.

Tua is a much bigger man though, bigger than Tyson even. But I don't think it will matter since Tua always waited for his opponent to quit throwing to open up himself...and he won't get that chance against Maricano or Frazier.
Golota was not really a test of anything. He imploded in every major challenge he faced. Tua faced all his fellow olympians, Nicholson, Izon, Maskaev, and beat them all. He also faced Ike Ibeabuchi in a very close fight that many thought he won. He was far more battle tested than Grant who turned out to be a complete fraud.

[The Mongoose]

Golota was not really a test of anything. He imploded in every major challenge he faced. Tua faced all his fellow olympians, Nicholson, Izon, Maskaev, and beat them all. He also faced Ike Ibeabuchi in a very close fight that many thought he won. He was far more battle tested than Grant who turned out to be a complete fraud.


Nicholson was after Lewis. Grant stopped a top 10 ranked Izon, and Oleg got blasted out by T-Rex Sanders...whom implosion prone Golota picked up one of his best wins against.

Sorry, I don't see a considerable gap in competition until after Lewis...when Tua added Byrd, Nicholson, Oquendo, and the like. Meanwhile, the mentally weak Grant got blew out by McCline and fell off the earth.

[The Mongoose]

Exactly. But hey...modern benefits have no positive effect on Marciano to posters out there. They do on every other cruiserweight though LOL


Funny, Patterson was roughly the same frame of Maricano, naturally lighter even when he wasn't draining himself, and more speed reliant, yet he added 10-15 lbs to better compete in the heavier 60s without losing that much, actually picking up some of his better wins. People are acting like Rocky is Qawi or something...who was like 5'5" on his toes and weighed below 170 early in his career...yeah I can see why fighting over 200 troubled him.

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong but I think most of the 180-200 lb guys of the past would carry more bulk in contemporary times and compete at Heavyweight. While they trained hard, most of these guys did not have the best nutrition in those days to begin with.

[janitor]

[quote=lefthook31;7074274]Thats just not true. I was in the gym with the guy when he came out of the olympics. I can tell you from frist hand experience, that he was in very good shape and trained very hard, up until the breakup of Main Events. Davids legs are the size of most peoples waists. He was just too big to ever be 205 once he turned pro.

You obviously have better inside information than me, but acording to boxrec Tua had two profesional fights where he came in under 205lbs, and he came in at 210 as late as the Villegas fight, which was 18 months before he fought Ibeabuchi.

The level of opposition that David faced climbing up the ranks was very very competitive. I cant think of any other heavyweight contender that faced the type of opposition he faced on their way to a title shot. Look at his record and fight schedule up to the Ibeabuchi fight. If your familiar with the top contenders of the period, it speaks for itself. Outside of his stablemate Golota, and Briggs who lost To Wilson and was knocked out by Tua in 1, Tua fought everyone!

Verry impresive for sure.

[he grant]

Funny, Patterson was roughly the same frame of Maricano, naturally lighter even when he wasn't draining himself, and more speed reliant, yet he added 10-15 lbs to better compete in the heavier 60s without losing that much, actually picking up some of his better wins. People are acting like Rocky is Qawi or something...who was like 5'5" on his toes and weighed below 170 early in his career...yeah I can see why fighting over 200 troubled him.

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong but I think most of the 180-200 lb guys of the past would carry more bulk in contemporary times and compete at Heavyweight. While they trained hard, most of these guys did not have the best nutrition in those days to begin with.


Patterson had bigger shoulders than Marciano and smaller legs. Marciano had sloped shoulders and Yogi Berra's legs.

If Marciano would have been as effective or better at 200, 205 or 210 why didn't he fight at that weight ? The answer is because he would have been slower and had diminished stamina. The proof is in the facts. He trained down to 187 because he knew that was his best weight for performance purposes. It's cut and dry. Rocky was a warrior and never let himself enter the ring in less than top condition. He knew better than anyone how imperative it was to his career success.

[janitor]

Patterson had bigger shoulders than Marciano and smaller legs. Marciano had sloped shoulders and Yogi Berra's legs.

If Marciano would have been as effective or better at 200, 205 or 210 why didn't he fight at that weight ? The answer is because he would have been slower and had diminished stamina. The proof is in the facts. He trained down to 187 because he knew that was his best weight for performance purposes. It's cut and dry. Rocky was a warrior and never let himself enter the ring in less than top condition. He knew better than anyone how imperative it was to his career success.

I guess you have to ask what Marciano would have done had he fought in an era of 12 round fights where the opposition were on the heavier side.

While he would surely still have had a strong focus on stamina, I could see him electing to come in a little heavier. He seems to have come in at over 190lbs for his bigger opponents.

[SuzieQ49]

Patterson had bigger shoulders than Marciano and smaller legs.

O dear lord..now HEgrants trying to claim patterson is naturally bigger than marciano!

Janitor, do you still have that video of youtube of marciano and patterson sitting next to eachother, and marciano's thick build makes floyd look little!

You know what I am talking about? would love to show it to HEgrant and shut his mouth for good. I promise you after you see this video, you will say "patterson does not have bigger shoulders".

Patterson is a natural 180lber who had to gain weight. Marciano is a natural 210lber who had to lose weight.

[SuzieQ49]

If Marciano would have been as effective or better at 200, 205 or 210 why didn't he fight at that weight ?

Because heavyweights didn't weight 250lb back then. He didn't have modern weight training, nutrition, supplements back in the early 50s. He ran 17 miles a day...that eats away your muscle. Marciano if he were around today, would focus more on weight training than long distance running...with better supplements/nutrition.

Why would rocky stay at cruiserweight today? who is there for him to fight? The big bucks are at heavyweight.

[janitor]

O dear lord..now HEgrants trying to claim patterson is naturally bigger than marciano!

Janitor, do you still have that video of youtube of marciano and patterson sitting next to eachother, and marciano's thick build makes floyd look little!

You know what I am talking about? would love to show it to HEgrant and shut his mouth for good. I promise you after you see this video, you will say "patterson does not have bigger shoulders".

Patterson is a natural 180lber who had to gain weight. Marciano is a natural 210lber who had to lose weight.

I think it is the Patterson Chuvalo fight.

[he grant]

O dear lord..now HEgrants trying to claim patterson is naturally bigger than marciano!

Janitor, do you still have that video of youtube of marciano and patterson sitting next to eachother, and marciano's thick build makes floyd look little!

You know what I am talking about? would love to show it to HEgrant and shut his mouth for good. I promise you after you see this video, you will say "patterson does not have bigger shoulders".

Patterson is a natural 180lber who had to gain weight. Marciano is a natural 210lber who had to lose weight.

Can you be THAT dumb ? The one where the camera angle distorts Marciano sitting on the outer left side of the shot so he looks twice as wide as Patterson who was ceneterd in the shot ? I guess his head was twice as large and wide as a basketball as well ... man are you small time .. try googling perspective distortion instead of porn .. it is a perfectly sums up your entire Marciano fetish ...

[PowerPuncher]

Suzie a few points, yes with modern sports science (training/supplementation), Rocky could add say 20lbs of pounds of muscle. That won't detract from the fact Rocky has quite a small frame, similar to Tua's, but imo not as naturally muscular/strong. Lets not confuse Rocky's physique with Haye/Holyfield's, his frame simply isn't as big. He would suffer the same problem Tua/Tyson had in the modern era and that is getting past very long jabs, and he wouldn't have Tyson's speed of hand/foot to help him compensate, not that he couldn't have success, but it would be hard. His right hand would also be harder to land against taller/rangier men, Tyson always considered himself to have a great right hand, but he rarely got a chance to land it.

Maybe in the more affluent modern era Rocky would have better childhood nutrition and grow to be taller/rangier. This is certainly true of many if not all, I have 5inches on my dad

Rocky is naturally bigger than PAtterson who is a middleweight with a very fien bone structure who had to force feed himself to maintain his 180-190lbs.

Anyway this is all meaningless, and fantasy what we know is Rocky was the best heavyweight of his era, proven, and that much can't be taken away from him

As for Rocky 'running 17miles a day', thats nothing more than hyperbole and not the optimum way for a boxer to maximise their stamina anyway, less is often more. He was in great condition for all his fights all the same

[he grant]

Suzie a few points, yes with modern sports science (training/supplementation), Rocky could add say 20lbs of pounds of muscle. That won't detract from the fact Rocky has quite a small frame, similar to Tua's, but imo not as naturally muscular/strong. Lets not confuse Rocky's physique with Haye/Holyfield's, his frame simply isn't as big. He would suffer the same problem Tua/Tyson had in the modern era and that is getting past very long jabs, and he wouldn't have Tyson's speed of hand/foot to help him compensate, not that he couldn't have success, but it would be hard. His right hand would also be harder to land against taller/rangier men, Tyson always considered himself to have a great right hand, but he rarely got a chance to land it.

Maybe in the more affluent modern era Rocky would have better childhood nutrition and grow to be taller/rangier. This is certainly true of many if not all, I have 5inches on my dad

Rocky is naturally bigger than PAtterson who is a middleweight with a very fien bone structure who had to force feed himself to maintain his 180-190lbs.

Anyway this is all meaningless, and fantasy what we know is Rocky was the best heavyweight of his era, proven, and that much can't be taken away from him

As for Rocky 'running 17miles a day', thats nothing more than hyperbole and not the optimum way for a boxer to maximise their stamina anyway, less is often more. He was in great condition for all his fights all the same

PP, you are making points to this kid that have been made time and again .. there is no way to rationalize with an emotional high school hero mentality ..

[SuzieQ49]

great post PowerPuncher. Funny how HEgrant attempts to agree with you, when his past history of posts shows he sided against this view.

yes with modern sports science (training/supplementation), Rocky could add say 20lbs of pounds of muscle.



I know who HEgrant really is. I have been posting in the same forums as him since 2003. Cyberboxing, Kevin Smith's black prize forum which sadly hasn't been used since 2007, and many more. This guy is borderline Marciano troll. If anyone, ever, decides to defend marciano on a criticism, he immediately shouts "You cannot rationalize with Marciano fans. They live in fantasy. They have no reasoning." He says this everytime, no matter how little you defend him, it's this every time. Hell, I don't even rate Marciano in my top 4 heavyweights of all time, yet he acts like I think Rocky would beat every heavwyeight who ever lived. How Naive can someone be? Like someone said in another thread, " I'd hazard a guess that you weren't captain of the debating team at Harvard in your distant past?" This guy is a leetch. He leetches off others videos, he has never contributed any of his own material for the forum. He is dead weight. We don't need him.

It's time to write to the mods, I am going to try to get this guy banned. I think I have enough evidence. Bye Bye Hegrant.

[Unforgiven]

I know who HEgrant really is. I have been posting in the same forums as him since 2003. Cyberboxing, Kevin Smith's black prize forum which sadly hasn't been used since 2007, and many more. This guy is borderline Marciano troll. If anyone, ever, decides to defend marciano on a criticism, he immediately shouts "You cannot rationalize with Marciano fans. They live in fantasy. They have no reasoning." He says this everytime, no matter how little you defend him, it's this every time. Hell, I don't even rate Marciano in my top 4 heavyweights of all time, yet he acts like I think Rocky would beat every heavwyeight who ever lived. How Naive can someone be? Like someone said in another thread, " I'd hazard a guess that you weren't captain of the debating team at Harvard in your distant past?" This guy is a leetch. He leetches off others videos, he has never contributed any of his own material for the forum. He is dead weight. We don't need him.

It's time to write to the mods, I am going to try to get this guy banned. I think I have enough evidence. Bye Bye Hegrant.

:lol:

WTF ?

[clinikill]

I know who HEgrant really is. I have been posting in the same forums as him since 2003. Cyberboxing, Kevin Smith's black prize forum which sadly hasn't been used since 2007, and many more. This guy is borderline Marciano troll. If anyone, ever, decides to defend marciano on a criticism, he immediately shouts "You cannot rationalize with Marciano fans. They live in fantasy. They have no reasoning." He says this everytime, no matter how little you defend him, it's this every time. Hell, I don't even rate Marciano in my top 4 heavyweights of all time, yet he acts like I think Rocky would beat every heavwyeight who ever lived. How Naive can someone be? Like someone said in another thread, " I'd hazard a guess that you weren't captain of the debating team at Harvard in your distant past?" This guy is a leetch. He leetches off others videos, he has never contributed any of his own material for the forum. He is dead weight. We don't need him.

It's time to write to the mods, I am going to try to get this guy banned. I think I have enough evidence. Bye Bye Hegrant.

Your fanatical man-crush on Marciano is disturbing. Get help.

[SuzieQ49]

Rocky Marciano, as great as he was, is a product of the '50s. Boxing has evolved greatly since then.


So Sugar Ray Robinson was a product of the 50s?

[lefthook31]

[quote]

You obviously have better inside information than me, but acording to boxrec Tua had two profesional fights where he came in under 205lbs, and he came in at 210 as late as the Villegas fight, which was 18 months before he fought Ibeabuchi.



Verry impresive for sure.
The frequency of his fights definitely slowed as he moved up the ranks which contributed to more down time. This doesnt really mean he was slacking in his training, just not fighting as often and having a bit more time off which definitely affected his weight. That really became a problem after the breakup of Main Events and his new promoter protecting his ranking, but he was still a pretty busy fighter leading up to the Ike fight.
Tuas ideal and most effective weight was the low to mid 220's. I think his speed and conditioning was really affected once he was consistently over 230.

[The Mongoose]

Interestingly only 10 lbs heavier than Rocky in his first pro fights, David Tua's debut at 201 and 204 lbs on Tuesday Night Fights! Looks very fit at this weight, and as strong as ever.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]



[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[PetethePrince]

great post PowerPuncher. Funny how HEgrant attempts to agree with you, when his past history of posts shows he sided against this view.





I know who HEgrant really is. I have been posting in the same forums as him since 2003. Cyberboxing, Kevin Smith's black prize forum which sadly hasn't been used since 2007, and many more. This guy is borderline Marciano troll. If anyone, ever, decides to defend marciano on a criticism, he immediately shouts "You cannot rationalize with Marciano fans. They live in fantasy. They have no reasoning." He says this everytime, no matter how little you defend him, it's this every time. Hell, I don't even rate Marciano in my top 4 heavyweights of all time, yet he acts like I think Rocky would beat every heavwyeight who ever lived. How Naive can someone be? Like someone said in another thread, " I'd hazard a guess that you weren't captain of the debating team at Harvard in your distant past?" This guy is a leetch. He leetches off others videos, he has never contributed any of his own material for the forum. He is dead weight. We don't need him.

It's time to write to the mods, I am going to try to get this guy banned. I think I have enough evidence. Bye Bye Hegrant.

Good luck

[Seamus]

It's really cute how some folks get so butthurt because others don't fall in line with the ridiculous Classic Forum Orthodoxy. Then they proceed to misspell the same word repeatedly... good fun.

[Jear]

Interestingly only 10 lbs heavier than Rocky in his first pro fights, David Tua's debut at 201 and 204 lbs on Tuesday Night Fights! Looks very fit at this weight, and as strong as ever.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]



[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Note that Tua is also fighting 195 and 200lb opponents in these bouts.
Tua at his best is between 220 and 230lbs

[PowerPuncher]

Interestingly only 10 lbs heavier than Rocky in his first pro fights, David Tua's debut at 201 and 204 lbs on Tuesday Night Fights! Looks very fit at this weight, and as strong as ever.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]



[Only registered and activated users can see links]

He was only 20 then and he'd get stronger

[Unforgiven]

Rocky Marciano was a great fighter.
But I can see why some would say he cannot beat Tua.
Going straight at Tua might prove to be suicidal gameplan for Rocky, and Rocky was known for going straight at everyone.

Then again, I dont see why people would assume that Rocky was incapable of adapting or tweaking his style to offset any advantages Tua holds over him.
Rocky is bound to slug at Tua, but he's not necessarily some dumb palooka who's going to slug with Tua.
Rocky's greatness lay in his dedication to his profession, through conditioning and through learning the craft and making his opponents fight his fight.
It's wrong to assume he'd only try to steamroll through Tua.

[The Mongoose]

He was only 20 then and he'd get stronger

Hard to guage his strength, his left certianly looks as loaded as it did at any weight.

I think he looked filled out at 225 a few years down the road, probably his limit as far as adding mass before he started getting really bloated and lethargic. Just thought it was interesting to see a more natural 200 lb Tua in lean fighting shape that is comparable to the physical condition Rocky was in at 187 or so.