Tell Me Where You Stand On These Classic Boxing Controversies

[acb]

And most importantly, WHY!!!

1. Was Ali vs Liston II a fix, was the KO blow legit?

No, it wasnt a fix. Ali caught Liston with a legit, short punch. However, Liston could have probably beaten the bell if he really had the heart to be champion and thought he could beat Ali.

2. SRL vs Marvin Hagler- Who won?

SRL. I made a thread about this a few weeks ago, I blame Hagler for fucking around the first few rounds. If he knew Ray was a media darling and a judges favorite, he should have fought every round! Letting Ray get into his groove by trying to prove whatever he was trying to prove by going away from southy was not a good move.

3. Meldrick Taylor vs Chavez- Should the fight have been stopped?

This is difficult, I tend to believe it was a bad stoppage give the time remaining in the fight.

4. Arron Pryor vs Arguello I- Did Pryor cheat?

Hell yes! Whatever that was in that bottle wasnt just water. Did he need to cheat to win, maybe not, but its irrelevant because in my mind he did cheat.

[WhataRock]

1. Pretty much agree, there have been a ton of books on it.

2. I had it for Hagler but thats one of the most overblown robberies ever, Leonard just wasnt expected to do that well.

3. Torn on this one but it wasnt Steele's job to be the timekeeper, he is there to protect a fighter in trouble and Taylor was in big trouble. I really really feel for Taylor though, he fought the fight of his life against arguably the best fighter in the world and to lose like that is heartbreaking. What could have been...

4. No proof, all hearsay and thats what America was built on. But it certainly didnt look good.

[acb]

3. Torn on this one but it wasnt Steele's job to be the timekeeper, he is there to protect a fighter in trouble and Taylor was in big trouble. I really really feel for Taylor though, he fought the fight of his life against arguably the best fighter in the world and to lose like that is heartbreaking. What could have been...

4. No proof, all hearsay and thats what America was built on. But it certainly didnt look good.

3. This is the most difficult one for me. He was obviously messed up, look at him today. At the same time, Steele could have let him have the win, but thats not his job really. I think its just a very raw deal all around.

4. The proof for me is that water is water. If he prefered one water over another that is an indication that it had something in it.

[Zakman]

1. No

2. Hagler

3. One of the worst stoppages ever

4. There's no way to prove it

[box03]

Ali-Liston there was no fix involved he just caught him on the button shit happens. Hagler-SRL easy victory for Hagler I just feel the judges were amazed that sugar ray did that well against him Taylor-chavez is a tough one but if you watch the fight closely Steele asks him if he wants to continue and he looks over to his corner my guess is he was hurt and wanted to know how much time was left in the round Steele did his job like he said after the fight it only takes one more punch to do serious damage, and after seeing Taylor lately maybe the stoppage was justified.

[psychopath]

And most importantly, WHY!!!

1. Was Ali vs Liston II a fix, was the KO blow legit?

No, it wasnt a fix. Ali caught Liston with a legit, short punch. However, Liston could have probably beaten the bell if he really had the heart to be champion and thought he could beat Ali.

2. SRL vs Marvin Hagler- Who won?

SRL. I made a thread about this a few weeks ago, I blame Hagler for fucking around the first few rounds. If he knew Ray was a media darling and a judges favorite, he should have fought every round! Letting Ray get into his groove by trying to prove whatever he was trying to prove by going away from southy was not a good move.

3. Meldrick Taylor vs Chavez- Should the fight have been stopped?

This is difficult, I tend to believe it was a bad stoppage give the time remaining in the fight.

4. Arron Pryor vs Arguello I- Did Pryor cheat?

Hell yes! Whatever that was in that bottle wasnt just water. Did he need to cheat to win, maybe not, but its irrelevant because in my mind he did cheat.


What else can I say? I agree with all your stand especially on the M Taylor/Chavez fight . . . damn that was a real heart breaker for Taylor and his fans. :-(

On Pryor/Arguello . . . there's nothing to prove it and it will remain as an allegation . . . but deep inside me I believe he did cheat.

[bmf95b]

Give me the bottle, no not that one the one I mixed.......

[bmf95b]

Taylor left most of his marbels in the ring that night,

[acb]

Give me the bottle, no not that one the one I mixed.......

And if that is a direct quote, which I think it is, thats all the proof I need folks. :yep

[brooklyn1550]

1. Agree with acb
2. Hagler 115, Leonard 113 (I have no problem with somebody saying Leonard won)
3. I am conflicted on this...always have, always will be. When I factor in some things, I side with Richard Steele. When I look at others, I side with those who say Steele should have let it go on.
4. Agree with acb - Pryor didn't need to cheat to win the fight, but in my opinion, he did cheat.

[WhataRock]

What was in it then??

Coke, amphetamine, Gatorade??

[psychopath]

Give me the bottle, no not that one the one I mixed.......

:D :lol:

:yep :good

[acb]

What was in it then??

Coke, amphetamine, Gatorade??

Its what it WASN´T that is important here, and that would be water.

[acb]

1. It was fixed.



Elaborate. Many people believe this, Im just not one of them.

I feel that if there was any shady business in the fight it was Liston just knowing the kid had his number.

[WhataRock]

Its what it WASN´T that is important here, and that would be water.

Could have been, could have just been all mental and it was a physcological device to fire Pryor up. Panama could have just said there was something in there. :D

[nervousxtian]

1 - Fix
2 - Hagler won, but it was close.
3 - Horrible stoppage, Steele should of known the 10sec mark was hit and let Taylor reach the bell. I've never felt as sorry for a fighter as in this fight.
4 - I'm pretty certain it wasn't water, but I honestly don't know what the hell it could of been that would of taken effect quickly enough to make any kind of difference in the fight.

[El Bombasto]

Fix
Leonard
Yes
Yes

[divac]

Give me the bottle, no not that one the one I mixed.......

About 6 months after the Arguello-Pryor bottle controversy,
Panama Lewis, Aaron Pyor's trainer who mixed that bottle he asked for,....Panama is removing the paddings from the gloves of one of his fighters.
This is just 6 nonths after Panama worked Pryor's corner in his fight with Arguello!!!!
Panama Lewis was tried, convicted, and banned from boxing for life!

I can just imagine the other atrocities Panama Lewis did while in the corner to favor his fighter.

I dont need any more proof than that.
Something other than Water, and to the benefit of Aaron Pryor was in that bottle that was'nt water.
......and I'd be suprised if Panama did'nt take out some of the padding of Aarron Pryor's gloves also.......

The black bottle incident is the one thing that transpired in boxing that can still get my blood to boil.

Everytime I see a video tape of Alexis Arguello pinned against the ropes late in that fight, I get sick to my stomach thinking Arguello was deprived of a fair chance at it!

Maybe its because it happened to such a nice gentleman like Arguello, but I have'nt let that one go!!!!:fire

[acb]

About 6 months after the Arguello-Pryor bottle controversy,
Panama Lewis, Aaron Pyor's trainer who mixed that bottle he asked for,....Panama is removing the paddings from the gloves of one of his fighters.
This is just 6 nonths after Panama worked Pryor's corner in his fight with Arguello!!!!
Panama Lewis was tried, convicted, and banned from boxing for life!

I can just imagine the other atrocities Panama Lewis did while in the corner to favor his fighter.

I dont need any more proof than that.
Something other than Water, and to the benefit of Aaron Pryor was in that bottle that was'nt water.
......and I'd be suprised if Panama did'nt take out some of the padding of Aarron Pryor's gloves also.......

The black bottle incident is the one thing that transpired in boxing that can still get my blood to boil.

Everytime I see a video tape of Alexis Arguello pinned against the ropes late in that fight, I get sick to my stomach thinking Arguello was deprived of a fair chance at it!

Maybe its because it happened to such a nice gentleman like Arguello, but I have'nt let that one go!!!!:fire

:good

[WhataRock]

If that went to court Panama would lose on character reference alone.

[divac]

Yeah I was thinking the same thing, Maybe it wasn't mixed and it was a mental thing to make Aaron think he had an edge when in reality it was just water :think

The HBO cameras caught Panama Lewis using the black bottle as early as the 2nd round.
Its likely that whatever was in that bottle was also given to Pryor well before they even stepped in the ring.
It turns out that Pryor was never given a urine analysis before or after the fight!

[2smart4u]

And most importantly, WHY!!!

1. Was Ali vs Liston II a fix, was the KO blow legit?

No, it wasnt a fix. Ali caught Liston with a legit, short punch. However, Liston could have probably beaten the bell if he really had the heart to be champion and thought he could beat Ali.

2. SRL vs Marvin Hagler- Who won?

SRL. I made a thread about this a few weeks ago, I blame Hagler for fucking around the first few rounds. If he knew Ray was a media darling and a judges favorite, he should have fought every round! Letting Ray get into his groove by trying to prove whatever he was trying to prove by going away from southy was not a good move.

3. Meldrick Taylor vs Chavez- Should the fight have been stopped?

This is difficult, I tend to believe it was a bad stoppage give the time remaining in the fight.

4. Arron Pryor vs Arguello I- Did Pryor cheat?

Hell yes! Whatever that was in that bottle wasnt just water. Did he need to cheat to win, maybe not, but its irrelevant because in my mind he did cheat.:smoke SONNEY layed down ! HAGLER should have won ! CHAVEV had TAYLER out within the time of the fight so the stoppage was legit ! No question the black bottle had something in it !:deal

[jordan230420]

Aaron Pryor was using water blessed by an eskimo medicine man

[brooklyn1550]

Aaron Pryor was using water blessed by an eskimo medicine man

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
The funniest post I've read in a long time

[Icemmann]

What was in it then??

Coke, amphetamine, Gatorade??

VYGF1Rb2vXI

It was this. :deal

[ripcity]

And most importantly, WHY!!!

1. Was Ali vs Liston II a fix, was the KO blow legit?

No, it wasnt a fix. Ali caught Liston with a legit, short punch. However, Liston could have probably beaten the bell if he really had the heart to be champion and thought he could beat Ali.

2. SRL vs Marvin Hagler- Who won?

SRL. I made a thread about this a few weeks ago, I blame Hagler for fucking around the first few rounds. If he knew Ray was a media darling and a judges favorite, he should have fought every round! Letting Ray get into his groove by trying to prove whatever he was trying to prove by going away from southy was not a good move.

3. Meldrick Taylor vs Chavez- Should the fight have been stopped?

This is difficult, I tend to believe it was a bad stoppage give the time remaining in the fight.

4. Arron Pryor vs Arguello I- Did Pryor cheat?

Hell yes! Whatever that was in that bottle wasnt just water. Did he need to cheat to win, maybe not, but its irrelevant because in my mind he did cheat.
1. No fix It was a quick unexpicted knockdown and bad refreeing.

2. I watched this about a year or two ago and scored it 115-113 for Leonard

3. Taylor deserved the win, but That's not the ref's job. The ref's job is to make sure the safty of the fighters is protected. Given the informition Richard Steel had he did the right thing.

4. I realy don't know but his trainer asking for the blak bottle the one he mixed makes me thing something is not right.

[Napoleon]

And most importantly, WHY!!!

1. Was Ali vs Liston II a fix, was the KO blow legit?

Undecided.

2. SRL vs Marvin Hagler- Who won?

Haven't seen it yet.

3. Meldrick Taylor vs Chavez- Should the fight have been stopped?

FUCK NO!
No explanation needed.


4. Arron Pryor vs Arguello I- Did Pryor cheat?

Yes, if its not water than its cheating.



Thats what I have to say.

[Napoleon]

1. No

2. Hagler

3. One of the worst stoppages ever

4. There's no way to prove it

The worst stoppage ever.

[Maxmomer]

1. Was Ali vs Liston II a fix, was the KO blow legit?

I agree. It wasn't a fix, the knockdown was legit, and Liston just gave up.

2. SRL vs Marvin Hagler- Who won?

Leonard.

3. Meldrick Taylor vs Chavez- Should the fight have been stopped?

It was a good stoppage, the ref didn't know how much time there was left.

4. Arron Pryor vs Arguello I- Did Pryor cheat?

I'm gonna say...yes.

[Carlos Primera]

1. ali beat him
2. leonard won
3. horrible stoppage, one of the worst ever
4. no proof he did cheat, but the actions and reputation of pryor's trainer are enough proof to believe he did.

[caballo]

And most importantly, WHY!!!

1. Was Ali vs Liston II a fix, was the KO blow legit?

No, it wasnt a fix. Ali caught Liston with a legit, short punch. However, Liston could have probably beaten the bell if he really had the heart to be champion and thought he could beat Ali.

2. SRL vs Marvin Hagler- Who won?

SRL. I made a thread about this a few weeks ago, I blame Hagler for fucking around the first few rounds. If he knew Ray was a media darling and a judges favorite, he should have fought every round! Letting Ray get into his groove by trying to prove whatever he was trying to prove by going away from southy was not a good move.

3. Meldrick Taylor vs Chavez- Should the fight have been stopped?

This is difficult, I tend to believe it was a bad stoppage give the time remaining in the fight.

4. Arron Pryor vs Arguello I- Did Pryor cheat?

Hell yes! Whatever that was in that bottle wasnt just water. Did he need to cheat to win, maybe not, but its irrelevant because in my mind he did cheat.

These are all great questions:

1) I don't think Ali was involved in any fix, but I do think Liston took a dive, probably as a way of paying money back to the mob.

2) I'm a big, big Hagler fan, but really, I can't argue with the fight going to Leonard. It was very close. Hagler was foolish to agree to fight at 156 and to fight in a huge ring.

3) Have to go with the ref's decision. His job is to protect the fighter, not to watch the clock.

4) I believe Pryor cheated. No proof. But his trainer asked for a special bottle, and Pryor came to life in the next round. Pryor did handily win the rematch though.

[redrooster]

And most importantly, WHY!!!

1. Was Ali vs Liston II a fix, was the KO blow legit?

No, it wasnt a fix. Ali caught Liston with a legit, short punch. However, Liston could have probably beaten the bell if he really had the heart to be champion and thought he could beat Ali.

2. SRL vs Marvin Hagler- Who won?

SRL. I made a thread about this a few weeks ago, I blame Hagler for fucking around the first few rounds. If he knew Ray was a media darling and a judges favorite, he should have fought every round! Letting Ray get into his groove by trying to prove whatever he was trying to prove by going away from southy was not a good move.

3. Meldrick Taylor vs Chavez- Should the fight have been stopped?

This is difficult, I tend to believe it was a bad stoppage give the time remaining in the fight.

4. Arron Pryor vs Arguello I- Did Pryor cheat?

Hell yes! Whatever that was in that bottle wasnt just water. Did he need to cheat to win, maybe not, but its irrelevant because in my mind he did cheat.

#1 It fits the description of a fix. I say yes.
#2 Hagler just barely. He looked terrible but Ray didn't do enough and lost a couple too many close rounds.
#3 No the fight should not have been stopped. The ref was competent and probably crooked.
#4 I am suspicious of what was in that bottle. Lewis' own words-"the one that I mixed" and the way Aaron came out like dynamite for the 14th like it was the first round. I say yes he definitely cheated.

[redrooster]

These are all great questions:

1) I don't think Ali was involved in any fix, but I do think Liston took a dive, probably as a way of paying money back to the mob.

2) I'm a big, big Hagler fan, but really, I can't argue with the fight going to Leonard. It was very close. Hagler was foolish to agree to fight at 156 and to fight in a huge ring.

3) Have to go with the ref's decision. His job is to protect the fighter, not to watch the clock.

4) I believe Pryor cheated. No proof. But his trainer asked for a special bottle, and Pryor came to life in the next round. Pryor did handily win the rematch though.


hagler weighed in at 156? I thought he came in at around 158 for Leonard.

[Sweet Pea Pacquiao]

1. Was Ali vs Liston II a fix, was the KO blow legit?

The blow was legit. It was a short clean punch, and I think Liston was more shocked than anything. But he didn't dive...at least I think he didn't.

2. SRL vs Marvin Hagler- Who won?

I had a draw. It's easy for us to watch the tape over and over and over again, but the judges only had one try. And even then, the fact that millions still argue over what should have had more weight in the decision: the aggression of Hagler or the ring generalship of Leonard? For example, I had PBF beat DLH 7-5, but if DLH won one round that clearly went to PBF in that fight, you might have similar arguments today for a draw. No clean answer, no clear decision.

3. Meldrick Taylor vs Chavez- Should the fight have been stopped?

Bad stoppage. Steele knows it's Round 12. He heard the 10 second reminder. Taylor is up on his feet. At WORST, Steele could have at least brought Taylor's gloves together and made him walk toward him. But he called it right away.

4. Arron Pryor vs Arguello I- Did Pryor cheat?

Knowingly or unknowingly (shades of Barry Bonds), Pryor definitely was aided by the substance in the bottle. So it's a tainted win for the Hawk.

[KO Boxing]

1. Tend to believe it was a legit punch, combined with Liston simply not wanting to, or not having the "heart" to, continue.

2. Ray Leonard, in a close fight. You don't win a fight by simply coming forward, unless your effective. I've never awarded fighters for INEFFECTIVE aggression, and I won't start now. Hagler came forward, threw, and MISSED (mostly BECAUSE of Ray). To me, that gives not only defence but also ring generalship to Ray... And Hagler gave away nearly all of the first 4 or 5 rounds (maybe with one even).

3. Never liked it, never will. I blame not only the beating of Chavez, but also the mental beating by Steele, on the downfall of Taylor. I say bad stoppage.

4. As many have said, not enough proof, but Lewis is a fuck and probably did do something wrong.

hagler weighed in at 156? I thought he came in at around 158 for Leonard.
Anything to take away from Ray's win, right?

[redrooster]

Anything to take away from Ray's win, right?

No. Look more closely at Caballo's post. it mentions Hagler at 156. I thought I heard on the tape that he was 158.

[Toopretty]

yeah..pryor had super water..a mix of water and super man vitamins...yeah...thats why he whooped his ass worse the second fight...righttttt. What the fuck could be in the water for him to cheat.

[Cachibatches]

Great Threasd!

1. No, it was not a fix. Liston was just tired of gangsters taking all of his money, and wanted to whow them their meal ticket was up.

2. You can see it eitehr way. SRL landed more punches, so as much as I hate to admit it, it was a legit win. It woul dhave helped had Marvelous no slept through the first four rounds.

3. Similar situation- either way is right. The ref is not a time keeper, and if theref asks for a response and does not get one, then the TKO has occurred. That being said, one would wish that a man with steel's experience would have had a little more ring presence and let Mel get his victory.

4. Pryor was coked to the gills, if thats what you mean.

[Boom_Boom]

1. Was Ali vs Liston II a fix, was the KO blow legit?

It was legit, Liston just didnt have it in him

2. SRL vs Marvin Hagler- Who won?

Yes, SRL clearly beat Hagler, and Hagler knows deep down inside he lost, I credit the win mainly to what happen outside of the ring then what happened inside,Hagler gave up so much advantage to SRL for more money that he deserved the loss IMO.

3. Meldrick Taylor vs Chavez- Should the fight have been stopped?

It was a bad stoppage and poor refereing on Steele's part, you can see it from the start of the 12th round Steele wanted to do something for Chavez, but ehhh, I blame Duva too.

4. Arron Pryor vs Arguello I- Did Pryor cheat?

Somthing I dont have much knowledge about since I didnt see the fight, but Im pretty sure Pryor's neck is made out of rubber

[acb]

yeah..pryor had super water..a mix of water and super man vitamins...yeah...thats why he whooped his ass worse the second fight...righttttt. What the fuck could be in the water for him to cheat.

So then explain why Panama had to ¨mix¨the water?

And we arent talking about the second fight. :deal

[Guru_Too_You]

What was in it then??

Coke, amphetamine, Gatorade??

Rumor is that it was peppermint schnopps.

[Thread Stealer]

The worst stoppage ever.

Ike Williams-Beau Jack

[Guru_Too_You]

For all you claiming bad stoppages in the Taylor fight, what is the only thing that you have to do when you get up after a knockdown?

EVERYONE KNOWS THE ANSWER, ESPECIALLY A PROFESSIONAL FIGHTER.

Meldrick didnt respond man, its nobodies fault but his own, period.

Liston just didnt want anymore from Clay.

Hagler.

Yes, Pryor had something besides water which is against the rules.

[Thread Stealer]

1. Was Ali vs Liston II a fix, was the KO blow legit?


Liston may have just quit. Liston was in great shape when the rematch was originally scheduled, but after Ali's hernia, he didn't train hard and looked terrible leading up to the fight in Maine.


2. SRL vs Marvin Hagler- Who won?


I scored it for Hagler, but I don't have much of a problem with Leonard winning the fight. What was dispicable was Guerra having it 118-110 for Leonard.


3. Meldrick Taylor vs Chavez- Should the fight have been stopped?


Steele could've let it go on, but Taylor didn't really respond with more than a half nod. Chavez wasn't in the neutral corner so Steele could've told Chavez to go back to the corner as refs often do.

I blame Duva for getting on the ring apron, which seemed to distract Meldrick as Steele was asking him questions.


4. Arron Pryor vs Arguello I- Did Pryor cheat?

Don't know.

Panama Lewis is on camera saying "the one that I mixed".

It's hard to give a fighter the benefit of the doubt in a situation like this when the mixed drink is from a scumbag like Panama (who should've been shot years ago).

[Tettsuo]

1. Was Ali vs Liston II a fix, was the KO blow legit?

Wasn't fixed, but Liston could have gotten back up. He just didn't want to.

2. SRL vs Marvin Hagler- Who won?

SRL. He simply outpointed Hagler.

3. Meldrick Taylor vs Chavez- Should the fight have been stopped?

Yes, without a doubt. It's not the refs job to think... "well, he did fight a good fight, so I'll let it continue.". It's the ref job to enforce the rules. If a fighter does not or can not respond to simple direct questions, the fights over.

4. Arron Pryor vs Arguello I- Did Pryor cheat?

I think there was something fishy with the water bottle, but I can't say for sure.

[T.S.]

Ali Liston 2 was not a fix! Ali's lightining quick right hand "jab" square on Liston's left temple. The way Liston reacts is exactly the way one reacts when his equilibrium is shot (see Trevor Berbick's end with Tyson) you are truly that delayed off balance.
That punch by Ali was one of the greatst ever thrown in the history of the sport.

[red cobra]

1. Not fake as in a mob or Muslim inspired way, but there were many bugs in Liston's head that affected his performance in both fights, not that Ali wouldn't have beat him anyway. It's harder to explain the second fight. It may have been a legit punch, but not enough to drop Liston and definitely not enough to ko him. Liston was spooked on his own, and took the easy way out in Lewiston, and really in Miami too.
2. Hagler beat him on the basis of quality, but not flashy punches, even a draw would have been fair.
3. The Chavez-Taylor shouldn't have been stopped with 2 or 3 seconds to go, no matter what the reason.
4. Pryor didn't cheat, he was just younger, stronger, faster and a bit crazy, which helped make him a bit punch resistant, as in fueled by adrenalin.

[thewoo]

4. No proof, all hearsay and thats what America was built on. But it certainly didnt look good.

What do you mean there is no proof. You can plain as day see pryor drinking a liquid that was not water. It doesn't matter what it was. Whether it was grape kool-aid or a mysterious liquid from another planet. If it wasn't water it was illegal and unless you can show me plain black water, I can't understand how anyone would dispute that he did something illegal.

Here is a question for those of you saying that there is not enough proof that he cheated. Suppose a boxer competes in a 12 round fight. He clearly outboxes his opponent without taking any damage and wins a wide UD. Throughout the fight he never visually stuns his opponent and his punching power does not really seem to be a factor in the fight. However when he removes his gloves it is revealed that he had loaded gloves. Would you say that there is not enough proof that he cheated since his power was not really a factor and he would probably have won either way? same case with pryor here. If you want to make an argument that he could have still won without the black bottle fine. But there is an undeniable fact. He drank a substance other than water in a fight where water is the only legal substance. That's cheating

[Drew101]

And most importantly, WHY!!!

1. Was Ali vs Liston II a fix, was the KO blow legit?

No, it wasnt a fix. Ali caught Liston with a legit, short punch. However, Liston could have probably beaten the bell if he really had the heart to be champion and thought he could beat Ali.

2. SRL vs Marvin Hagler- Who won?

SRL. I made a thread about this a few weeks ago, I blame Hagler for fucking around the first few rounds. If he knew Ray was a media darling and a judges favorite, he should have fought every round! Letting Ray get into his groove by trying to prove whatever he was trying to prove by going away from southy was not a good move.

3. Meldrick Taylor vs Chavez- Should the fight have been stopped?

This is difficult, I tend to believe it was a bad stoppage give the time remaining in the fight.

4. Arron Pryor vs Arguello I- Did Pryor cheat?

Hell yes! Whatever that was in that bottle wasnt just water. Did he need to cheat to win, maybe not, but its irrelevant because in my mind he did cheat.

1. The kd was, in my opinion, a legitimate punch. It wasn't the even the best punch that Ali landed in the fight (his right hand at the beginning of the fight was harder), but, it did catch Liston leaning in, and its placement (near the temple) was enough to cause Liston to touch down. Of course, everything after that point was more than likely an overblown acting job from a fighter who decided he wasn't going to win the fight...

2. Hagler 6-4-2. I thought Marvin did the better in the later rounds to overtake SRL on the socrecards. SRL did box very well, though, and it's far from the worst decision that I've ever seen...

3. Yep. It's not the ref's responisbility to factor in the time remaining. His sole concern is to determine whether the fighter is fit to continue. Taylor was in a very bad way, and had absorbed a harrowing beating over the last few rounds of the fight, and, given that he was non-responsive, Steele was right to stop it.

4. Well, if Pryor didn't cheat, then Panama Lewis sure as hell did.

[Lacyace]

1. Don't know. Until proven otherwise, I'll assume it wasn't.
2. SRL won 7-5.
3. Yes, the fight should've been stopped.
4. Sure as hell don't know.

[C Money]

And most importantly, WHY!!!

1. Was Ali vs Liston II a fix, was the KO blow legit?

No, it wasnt a fix. Ali caught Liston with a legit, short punch. However, Liston could have probably beaten the bell if he really had the heart to be champion and thought he could beat Ali.

2. SRL vs Marvin Hagler- Who won?

SRL. I made a thread about this a few weeks ago, I blame Hagler for fucking around the first few rounds. If he knew Ray was a media darling and a judges favorite, he should have fought every round! Letting Ray get into his groove by trying to prove whatever he was trying to prove by going away from southy was not a good move.

3. Meldrick Taylor vs Chavez- Should the fight have been stopped?

This is difficult, I tend to believe it was a bad stoppage give the time remaining in the fight.

4. Arron Pryor vs Arguello I- Did Pryor cheat?

Hell yes! Whatever that was in that bottle wasnt just water. Did he need to cheat to win, maybe not, but its irrelevant because in my mind he did cheat.

First off?? Nice thread:happy Now down to business!!

1. Was Ali vs Liston II a fix, was the KO blow legit?

Yes, I believe it was fixed. I'm not knocking Ali, as I believe he wins regardless. Liston's mob ties were too deep and his toughness was of legendary proportions OUTSIDE the ring. I believe Liston followed instructions on when, because IF wasnt much question. Ali was perfectly capable of floating like a butterfly and stinging like a bee all night.

2. SRL vs Marvin Hagler- Who won?

Leonard did IMO, but the crime is that it was a 12 round fight. Both of these men were 15 round fighters and they deserved that distance. I truly believe it goes Hagler's way were that the case. SRL was totally exhausted and just survived 12. For all that Leonard went through previously? It was wonderful to see him bring back the positive one last time. Shame that it came at the Marvelous one's expense.

3. Meldrick Taylor vs Chavez- Should the fight have been stopped?

Uggghhhhh:wall That's a very frustrating issue!! I guess I have to say YES, though I dont like it one bit.:wall I blame Lou Duva for jumping on the apron and carrying on! I believe that distracted Taylor and the effect helped the ref's decision. Yet with such little time left, could Taylor's condition be any worse today?? Shitty, anti-climatic ending to a great fight. Credit JCC for being dogged until THE VERY END!!!

4. Arron Pryor vs Arguello I- Did Pryor cheat?

Ahhhh, yes!! THE SPECIAL MIX:lol: I'm gonna cop out on this, since I'm a Pryor fan. Pryor didnt cheat, but perhaps his corner did:lol: Cocaine's a hell of a drug!!:rofl Just joking!!! We'll perhaps never know what it was. I havent seen the rules governing approved ingredients for those "special mix's":good

[Haggis McJackass]

The worst stoppage ever.

No chance. Not even close.

Think of it from the other perspective. Chavez was getting cleanly outpointed. After round 6, he pretty much knew he needed a knockout. He kept trying, kept trying, kept trying. He started to break through in the last 4 rounds, but Meldrick was tough.

Even halfway through the last round, Meldrick was hanging tough. Chavez had gone the whole fight trying unsuccessfully to chop him down, and then finally, finally, in the last few seconds available to him, he tags him properly and Meldrick falls.

Taylor gets up. He's clearly very groggy and his legs are wobbly. His gloves are not tucked up under his chin. Steele asks him if he's okay. Meldrick looks away with a dazed, blank look and doesn't respond to the question.

THEN:

Steele allows the fight to go on, just so that he can pull the fighters apart 5 seconds later, after a defenseless Taylor soaks up a couple more from Chavez, because Taylor won more early rounds and therefore "deserves" the fight. And make no mistake, he would have eaten a few before Steele pulled Chavez away.

The match was scheduled for 12 rounds. Chavez stopped him fair and square within the allowed time. Steele is the ref, not the timekeeper. Given the evidence right in front of him, he made the right call according to the rules. To not stop the fight would have meant Steele made the decision to rob Chavez, and THAT robbery would have been FAR worse. Chavez did what he needed to do, and Steele did what his job compelled him to do.

:hat

[BewareofDawg]

1. Gotta give Ali the benefit of the doubt. The KO was legit.

2. Leonard won the fight.

3. The stoppage was good. Very unfortunate for Taylor, and made worse by his condition now. But it was a legit stoppage.

4. Have no idea.

[thewoo]

I can't belive you ridiculous pryor fans in denial
Ask your self these simple questions.

1. Is breaking the rules cheating
2., was it against the rules to drink anything other than water
3, Did pryor drink a colored substance that was not water.

Stop making exuses for him people. The man cheated.

[warchild]

1. Fix. Ali reacted as though he knew it was going to happen.

2. Leonard. Hagler had every chance to carry out a different fight plan and he didn't.

3. Good stoppage. Taylor unwisely went toe to toe with Chavez and got stopped.

4. Yes. What Lewis said between rounds and how Pryor performed in the next round is very suspicious.

[thewoo]

enough about pryor arguello my take on the other ones

1. Legit punch
2. Leanord.
3. Good stoppage. a ko is a ko no matter when it comes.

[divac]

Rumor is that it was peppermint schnopps.

Rumor???:lol: :lol: :lol:

That is'nt a rumor.......When Panama Lewis was told that their was video tape evidence of him calling for a bottle that he had mixed, he went to work again, and concocted another mix of bullshit and called it the peppermint shnapps story.
Panama said that the bottle contained peppermint schnapps to calm down Aaron Pryor's upset stomach!:lol:

I guess we should take Panama's word for it huh?:lol: :nut

[thewoo]

Rumor???:lol: :lol: :lol:

That is'nt a rumor.......When Panama Lewis was told that their was video tape evidence of him calling for a bottle that he had mixed, he went to work again, and concocted another mix of bullshit and called it the peppermint shnapps story.
Panama said that the bottle contained peppermint schnapps to calm down Aaron Pryor's upset stomach!:lol:

I guess we should take Panama's word for it huh?:lol: :nut

Nevermind the fact that peppermint schnapps is actually clear.

[Guru_Too_You]

Rumor???:lol: :lol: :lol:

That is'nt a rumor.......When Panama Lewis was told that their was video tape evidence of him calling for a bottle that he had mixed, he went to work again, and concocted another mix of bullshit and called it the peppermint shnapps story.
Panama said that the bottle contained peppermint schnapps to calm down Aaron Pryor's upset stomach!:lol:

I guess we should take Panama's word for it huh?:lol: :nut

OK man, that would make it a rumor. Settle down.

[rodney]

1. No. He got dropped. Didnt beat the count.

2. Hagler should of won. Not even close.

3. Fair stoppage. He was way ahead, got hurt pretty good.
Ref stops the fight. Couldnt go the distance.

4. Pryor kicked his ass twice. I suppose he cheated twice.
Total domination. His performance was consistent with the
way he fought in most of his previous fights. I do not think that
it would have been closer if Arguello took his energy drink.

[thewoo]

4. Pryor kicked his ass twice. I suppose he cheated twice.
Total domination. His performance was consistent with the
way he fought in most of his previous fights. I do not think that
it would have been closer if Arguello took his energy drink.

So then you are saying that pryor did not drink a substance other than water in the first fight? because if that is not what you are saying I don't see how you can say he did not cheat.

[divac]

For those of you who are of the opinion that the Arguello-Pryor rematch settled whether Pryor was at an advantage or not with the black bottle incident.......
......remember, if you know anything about boxing and fighters not being the same after taking prolonged beatings....
.....Arguello rematched Pryor just 10 months after taking a horrific beating.
Anybody with any boxing sense would realize, thats no longer the same Alexis Arguello who had freshly stepped into the ring with Pryor just 10 months earlier.

A rematch settled nothing. That was an Alexis Arguello who was now both physically and mentally scarred!

[Thread Stealer]

For those of you who are of the opinion that the Arguello-Pryor rematch settled whether Pryor was at an advantage or not with the black bottle incident.......
......remember, if you know anything about boxing and fighters not being the same after taking prolonged beatings....
.....Arguello rematched Pryor just 10 months after taking a horrific beating.
Anybody with any boxing sense would realize, thats no longer the same Alexis Arguello who had freshly stepped into the ring with Pryor just 10 months earlier.

A rematch settled nothing. That was an Alexis Arguello who was now both physically and mentally scarred!

Arguello was older and two divisions past his best weight class anyway.

Pryor was the better junior WW but Arguello is the greater fighter historically.

[divac]

Nevermind the fact that peppermint schnapps is actually clear.

Woo, I dont know for sure, but I'm fairly certain that it was'nt a mix that turned black.......
.......I'm fairly certain that the bottle that Panama asked for was an actual plastic black bottle to hide the fact that the substance was'nt clear water.

[Rumsfeld]

And most importantly, WHY!!!

1. Was Ali vs Liston II a fix, was the KO blow legit?

NOPE

2. SRL vs Marvin Hagler- Who won?

Hagler

3. Meldrick Taylor vs Chavez- Should the fight have been stopped?

Yes, it was a good stoppage.

4. Arron Pryor vs Arguello I- Did Pryor cheat?



Nahh!

:smoke

[divac]

Arguello was older and two divisions past his best weight class anyway.

Pryor was the better junior WW but Arguello is the greater fighter historically.

That could be true.....but in typical Arguello fashion, he was getting better and having an easier time of finding the mark on Pryor past the mid-way point of the fight.
Leading to the 14th round, Arguello looked to be coming on, and Pryor seemed like he had lost quite a bit of steam......
......then the black bottle with Panama in the corner, and Pryor comes out for the 14th like its the 1st round......

......I cant help but feel that Arguello did'nt have a fair chance at making history.

Thats what hurts me as an Arguello fan.....was Arguello fighting at an even playing field with a fair chance at making history?
Whether the black bottle made a difference or not does'nt much matter....but the fact will remain that there will always be doubt on whether or not the mix was helping Pryor energywise along the way.

Its a pity, and the fact that Panama is caught taking the paddings out of the gloves of one of his fighters only6 months after the black bottle controversy proves that he was capable to go to any depths to cheat!

[Irish Steel]

1. Yes. Liston had known connections to the mob, and I believe he took a dive.

2.Hagler. But i could see someone giving it to SRL

3.Half and half. It depends, if I knew exactly how hurt he was at the time.

4.He cheated.

[Thinman]

For those of you who are of the opinion that the Arguello-Pryor rematch settled whether Pryor was at an advantage or not with the black bottle incident.......
......remember, if you know anything about boxing and fighters not being the same after taking prolonged beatings....
.....Arguello rematched Pryor just 10 months after taking a horrific beating.
Anybody with any boxing sense would realize, thats no longer the same Alexis Arguello who had freshly stepped into the ring with Pryor just 10 months earlier.

A rematch settled nothing. That was an Alexis Arguello who was now both physically and mentally scarred!

I agree. The damaged was done in the first fight. The second fight was irrelevant. Pryor wanted the first fight to be a 12 rds, but Arguello insisted in 15 knowing that he had the stamina and he was good in the championship rounds, at the end is was scheduled for 15 rds.

Many people who watched the fight at that time said that Pryor did not need any of those things to beat Arguello that night, but the question is... Did Prior have confidence with his mental and physical conditions for that fight? Was he really ready to go and fight for 15 rds against AA?. (I am not questioning his conditions, I am questioning his mentality for the fight, basically his confidence) Maybe, maybe not, we will never know.

We know how he did that night to beat AA and the pace he kept during the whole fight, but at the same time we will never know if he was performing like that because he was not feeling pain at all due to the influence of the famous mix in the black bottle.

To make it more difficult there weren't any exam (urine) done before or after the fight.

According to what I saw on the tape I would say that he did cheat, and if he did not know what was in the bottle, then Lewis for sure cheated.

I personally think that Pryor had the style to beat Arguello, but having the style sometimes is not good enough if the boxer is not well trained mentally and physically.

[thewoo]

Woo, I dont know for sure, but I'm fairly certain that it was'nt a mix that turned black.......
.......I'm fairly certain that the bottle that Panama asked for was an actual plastic black bottle to hide the fact that the substance was'nt clear water.

The way I remember it. it was a translucent bottle, it seemed like the bottle wasn't completly full so you could tell that the liquid was definatly dark. Maybe not black but certainlly not clear and not water without a doubt.

[istmeno]

If that went to court Panama would lose on character reference alone.

can we please call that piece of shit by his given name carlos. he is a disgrace, and i hate to see my country associate with such a lowlife bastard.

[divac]

The way I remember it. it was a translucent bottle, it seemed like the bottle wasn't completly full so you could tell that the liquid was definatly dark. Maybe not black but certainlly not clear and not water without a doubt.

I could be wrong, but I doubt Panama who is street wise, would be foolish enough to show Pryor drinking anything other than a clear liquid out of a clear bottle.

It was'nt the actual black bottle that later caught the eye of the HBO broadcast, it was Panama's words "not that one, the one I mixed!"

You'd have to be a damned fool to put a mix in a clear bottle!

[BobDigi5060]

Ali/Liston- Real
Hagler/Leonard- Hagler, like Hopkins, has only himself to blame for the late start
Chavez/Taylor- Good decision.. Bad timing. I wouldn't of stopped that fight.
Pryor=Cheater

[hobgoblin]

1. It was NOT fixed but the KO blow wasn't legit either. Liston was frustrated by Clay like no other in the first fight and said "No mas". The second fight, Liston realized it was a repeat so he decided to take a dive and lose rather than get humiliated again and lose. That "KO" punch may have put him off balance significantly - but I'm doubtful if enough to completely knock him down (unless he played with it as he did) nevermind KO.

2. Depends on you how score the fight. If boxing is a "sweet science" - I give it to Leonard. His landed many more slap punches on Hagler to get more points. Hagler clearly landed less, wasn't as ACTIVE (just following around Leonard) - but landed the more meaningful punches. Even then, he didn't do enough active work for me to give him the decison. Leonard controlled the fight, landed more - decision goes to LEONARD. The judges had it right that night.

3. Stoppage was EXCELLENT. 3 seconds into the fight or 3 seconds till the end of the fight - if you are in a state where you can't continue - even 1 second is enough for serious injury in boxing. Richard Steele is very underappreciated IMO. Ref maintains a protocol and follows by it - especially in boxing. Reminds me of the guy that went on the electric chair twice -before the second time people protested and said he had enough - but the judge remained objective purely to the law and removed his personal feelings and ruled for a round 2 but PERSONALLY wrote a letter to the governor asking him to pardon the guy. Reminds me of Vitali - Lewis - you all wanted to see the KO but we must sacrifice those feelings for the sake of the rules which are there for the sake of the fighters. People disregard these rules, they keep Taylor for a 2 more seconds and he gets seriously injured and ends up like McClellan - then people start to offer empty pity. Everyone pities McClellan but it has no concrete substance with it. In 1 second Lennox Lewis could send me to the ER and maybe even do permanent brain damage.

[hobgoblin]

Ali/Liston- Real
Hagler/Leonard- Hagler, like Hopkins, has only himself to blame for the late start
Chavez/Taylor- Good decision.. Bad timing. I wouldn't of stopped that fight.
Pryor=Cheater

That is what counts 100%. Timing is irrelevant, UNLESS it is :00 which it was not. Also, as Steele said himself, he was a referee not a time keeper. Even if he knew the time - he should remain true to the rules. the rules are the rules. fighter's safety.

[Asterion]

1. Was Ali vs Liston II a fix, was the KO blow legit?

No.


2. SRL vs Marvin Hagler- Who won?

Sugar Ray Leonard won.


3. Meldrick Taylor vs Chavez- Should the fight have been stopped?

It was ok to stop it. It was Steele's job. However, Taylor's trainer distracted him by yelling and it was his fault.


4. Arron Pryor vs Arguello I- Did Pryor cheat?

Nah.

[Decker]

1. Was Ali vs Liston II a fix, was the KO blow legit?

I think this fight was a semi fix. No way Liston was stopped by that punch.


2. SRL vs Marvin Hagler- Who won?

You could have called this fight a draw. SRL was more of a media darling than MH.


3. Meldrick Taylor vs Chavez- Should the fight have been stopped?

No strong view here.


4. Arron Pryor vs Arguello I- Did Pryor cheat?

I liked both fighters. Pryer was more of a natural LWW. He may have used a drink that gave him a "lift", who knows?