Was Bowe's performance in Holyfield I the best hw display since Ali & Frazier's day?

[DINAMITA]

I watched this fight the other night, and as well as being a tremendous encounter (really makes you aware of how soporific today's crop are, watch Wlad v Ibragimov/Rahman/Thompson after that fight and I guarantee you cry tears of regret!), it really was a superb all-round performance from Riddick Bowe IMO.

Now, Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson, Larry Holmes and others (anyone seen Michael Moorer v Axel Schulz? I really liked Moorer in that fight) produced some truly great hw displays. Tyson v Pinklon Thomas was another I really liked.

However, considering the standard of opposition, the standard of performance, the magnitude of the fight etc, I think Bowe's showing in the first Holyfield fight was quite possibly the best hw performance since the Golden Age of Ali and Frazier.


I should say though, I am not nor ever will be a big fan of hw boxing, so my knowledge of it isn't great and I could be way off here.

Anyone agree or disagree with my call here?

:bbb

[mr. magoo]

I have a diffiicult time awarding any single fight as being the "best" performance, given that were so many in the last 30-40 years. I do however agree that it was an excellent display of wills from two incredibly great athletes who both felt that they could win the match. There wasn't an ounce of quit in either of those men.

[stevebhoy87]

I watched this fight the other night, and as well as being a tremendous encounter (really makes you aware of how soporific today's crop are, watch Wlad v Ibragimov/Rahman/Thompson after that fight and I guarantee you cry tears of regret!), it really was a superb all-round performance from Riddick Bowe IMO.

Now, Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson, Larry Holmes and others (anyone seen Michael Moorer v Axel Schulz? I really liked Moorer in that fight) produced some truly great hw displays. Tyson v Pinklon Thomas was another I really liked.

However, considering the standard of opposition, the standard of performance, the magnitude of the fight etc, I think Bowe's showing in the first Holyfield fight was quite possibly the best hw performance since the Golden Age of Ali and Frazier.


I should say though, I am not nor ever will be a big fan of hw boxing, so my knowledge of it isn't great and I could be way off here.

Anyone agree or disagree with my call here?

:bbb


I think tyson, lewis and holmes looked better in certain fights but against lesser opponents. I'd need to think about it further but it may well be the most impressive preformance post ali and fraizer

[lefthook31]

Anytime you have two greats with the willingness to stand and trade, it produces a great fight. Bowe and Holyfield had good mean streaks which produced an exciting fight, especially considering both were in their respective primes. Holyfield was the type of fighter that was going to make you fight with him. With exception to Lennox Lewis who held and ran all he could, Holyfield was able to engage most everyone.

[ChrisPontius]

Bowe vs Holyfield was a great FIGHT, but Bowe took a lot of punishment even in victory and seemed to wear him down more with his size, strength and power rather than being the better boxer.

[mr. magoo]

Bowe vs Holyfield was a great FIGHT, but Bowe took a lot of punishment even in victory and seemed to wear him down more with his size, strength and power rather than being the better boxer.


Actually, it was Evander who I felt fought the wrong kind of fight. Had he boxed more as opposed to trying to win a physical battle with Riddick, he might have won the first match..

[COULDHAVEBEEN]

I watched this fight the other night, and as well as being a tremendous encounter (really makes you aware of how soporific today's crop are, watch Wlad v Ibragimov/Rahman/Thompson after that fight and I guarantee you cry tears of regret!), it really was a superb all-round performance from Riddick Bowe IMO...

The Bowe v Hollyfield trilogy was amongst the best I've seen. All 3 fights were great in their own way, and the last 2 very close. The initial match-up was certainly a brilliant performance by Bowe. Personally I enjoyed the 3rd fight the most. Close, toe to toe, and then alamost unexpectedly Bowe got a sniff and stepped up to finish it.....3 x great fights!

....and no, they don't make 'em like that any more. Klit v Thompson was one of the biggest yawns I've witnessed.

[COULDHAVEBEEN]

I watched this fight the other night, and as well as being a tremendous encounter (really makes you aware of how soporific today's crop are, watch Wlad v Ibragimov/Rahman/Thompson after that fight and I guarantee you cry tears of regret!), it really was a superb all-round performance from Riddick Bowe IMO...

The Bowe v Hollyfield trilogy was amongst the best I've seen.

All 3 fights were great in their own way, and the last 2 very close. The initial match-up was certainly a brilliant performance by Bowe.

Personally I enjoyed the 3rd fight the most. Close, toe to toe, and then almost unexpectedly Bowe got a sniff and stepped up to finish it.....3 x great fights!

....and no, they don't make 'em like that any more. Klit v Thompson was one of the biggest yawns I've witnessed.

[lefthook31]

The Bowe v Hollyfield trilogy was amongst the best I've seen.

All 3 fights were great in their own way, and the last 2 very close. The initial match-up was certainly a brilliant performance by Bowe.

Personally I enjoyed the 3rd fight the most. Close, toe to toe, and then almost unexpectedly Bowe got a sniff and stepped up to finish it.....3 x great fights!

....and no, they don't make 'em like that any more. Klit v Thompson was one of the biggest yawns I've witnessed.
Bowe in the first fight was the best he could be. The two preceding fights he had clearly declined and expanded too much for his own good.

[Robbi]

Holyfield seen Bowe as a long range boxer with a limited inside game. I'm sure Holyfield thought if he got inside often, it was an easy fight. Bowe really shined inside and out-punched Holyfield. It wasn't just the body punches that did the damage, but also the physical strength and weight of Bowe.

[Arka]

I personally think Bowe started declining not long after the first fight with Holyfield,rather than Evander coming up with a superior strategy in the second fight.

[ChrisPontius]

Actually, it was Evander who I felt fought the wrong kind of fight. Had he boxed more as opposed to trying to win a physical battle with Riddick, he might have won the first match..

I agree completely, but my point was that Bowe hardly pulled of a boxing master clinic. He wore down Holyfield and took advantage of the man's tendency to slug it out. As you say, if Evander boxed smart, he had a good chance of winning a decision and there would not have been that much Bowe could've done about it.... that's why i won't consider it "the best hw display since Ali/Frazier". It was one of the most entertaining fights since then, that's for sure.

[Robbi]

I personally think Bowe started declining not long after the first fight with Holyfield,rather than Evander coming up with a superior strategy in the second fight.

Bowe's weight surprised a few people in the rematch. He was considerably heavier.

[Addie]

I watched this fight the other night, and as well as being a tremendous encounter (really makes you aware of how soporific today's crop are, watch Wlad v Ibragimov/Rahman/Thompson after that fight and I guarantee you cry tears of regret!), it really was a superb all-round performance from Riddick Bowe IMO.

Now, Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson, Larry Holmes and others (anyone seen Michael Moorer v Axel Schulz? I really liked Moorer in that fight) produced some truly great hw displays. Tyson v Pinklon Thomas was another I really liked.

However, considering the standard of opposition, the standard of performance, the magnitude of the fight etc, I think Bowe's showing in the first Holyfield fight was quite possibly the best hw performance since the Golden Age of Ali and Frazier.


I should say though, I am not nor ever will be a big fan of hw boxing, so my knowledge of it isn't great and I could be way off here.

Anyone agree or disagree with my call here?

:bbb

Nice pick, DINAMITA.

I recently purchased Riddick Bowe's career DVD set, and his first fight with Evander Holyfield I was not only a tremendous Heavyweight title fight, but undoubtedly Big Daddy's finest hour. No question. I think a lot of things he was able to do in that fight surprised Evander in particular.

Of course, Bowe's subpar defensive capabilities were still on show, and the fight was extremely competitive throughout, but Bowe was a clear winner. He was finding a home for his overhand right, and perhaps most surprisingly of all, he was able to stay with Evander all the way up until the final bell. Some ridiclulous exchanges in this fight, and Bowe was known to run out of gas, but he was in tremendous condition in '92. I don't think anything was going to stop him winning the title that night.

Riddick Bowe in great shape is a threat to anybody, and I think he could have been more than competitive with Lennox Lewis around that time.

[mr. magoo]

I agree completely, but my point was that Bowe hardly pulled of a boxing master clinic. He wore down Holyfield and took advantage of the man's tendency to slug it out. As you say, if Evander boxed smart, he had a good chance of winning a decision and there would not have been that much Bowe could've done about it.... that's why i won't consider it "the best hw display since Ali/Frazier". It was one of the most entertaining fights since then, that's for sure.


Very true..

Sadly, the Bowe fight was a very winnable match for Holyfield. Hindsite tells us that Riddick didn't cover up very well against a good jab, and was more comfortable out muscling smaller opponents. Had Evander boxed he may very well have squeaked by on a close decision, then fought a pre-steward Lewis, in a match that he would have had a fair chance of taking as well...

[Arka]

Bowe's weight surprised a few people in the rematch. He was considerably heavier.

11 pounds heavier at the weigh-in..... :think

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[Addie]

Very true..

Sadly, the Bowe fight was a very winnable match for Holyfield. Hindsite tells us that Riddick didn't cover up very well against a good jab, and was more comfortable out muscling smaller opponents. Had Evander boxed he may very well have squeaked by on a close decision, then fought a pre-steward Lewis, in a match that he would have had a fair chance of taking as well...

Evander Holyfield was never disciplined enough to keep it a boxing match with Riddick Bowe. He even slugged it out at times in the rematch, only Bowe was in horrible physical shape and paid the price for it.

[Bokaj]

I agree completely, but my point was that Bowe hardly pulled of a boxing master clinic. He wore down Holyfield and took advantage of the man's tendency to slug it out. As you say, if Evander boxed smart, he had a good chance of winning a decision and there would not have been that much Bowe could've done about it.... that's why i won't consider it "the best hw display since Ali/Frazier". It was one of the most entertaining fights since then, that's for sure.

I agree completely. Bowe's offense is impressive for such a big guy, but fuck is he there to be hit. His defense is too poor for it to be considered a classic perfomance.

Yes, Frazier also ate a lot of leather against Ali in the early stages of FOTC. But Ali wasn't just a sharp puncher (which Holyfield also was), he was also faster and bigger than Frazier and tried to keep it at range.

[Addie]

I agree completely. Bowe's offense is impressive for such a big guy, but fuck is he there to be hit. His defense is too poor for it to be considered a classic perfomance.

Yes, Frazier also ate a lot of leather against Ali in the early stages of FOTC. But Ali wasn't just a sharp puncher (which Holyfield also was), he was also faster and bigger than Frazier and tried to keep it at range.

I agree with DINAMITA.

For Riddick Bowe to have gone at that pace for 12 rounds and not only match Evander, but clearly beat him required a great performance.

I don't think it's the greatest since Ali and Frazier, but it'd be there or there abouts. Bowe was known for running out of gas, he was still relatively inexperianced, and to overcome that kind of adversity over a peak Holyfield was a great achievement.

[Bokaj]

I agree with DINAMITA.

For Riddick Bowe to have gone at that pace for 12 rounds and not only match Evander, but clearly beat him required a great performance.

I don't think it's the greatest since Ali and Frazier, but it'd be there or there abouts. Bowe was known for running out of gas, he was still relatively inexperianced, and to overcome that kind of adversity over a peak Holyfield was a great achievement.

It was a great perfomance, I just don't consider it to be a classic one. A classic fight, though.

[redrooster]

Bowe was a real competitor. he let Evander know right away what real competition was about...that he wasnt in the ring with Foreman or Holmes, or some other relic.

Outside of Douglas' effort it was the division's best showing. He ate Holy alive on the inside, got him to lose his head early on and fight in the trenches where he wanted him.

I also enjoyed their last fight very much becuz it was Bowe who pulling out the late heroics just as Evander tried pulling RN into a street fight. The fight was over in seconds

[lefthook31]

It was a great perfomance, I just don't consider it to be a classic one. A classic fight, though.

:blood

[DINAMITA]

I agree completely, but my point was that Bowe hardly pulled of a boxing master clinic. He wore down Holyfield and took advantage of the man's tendency to slug it out. As you say, if Evander boxed smart, he had a good chance of winning a decision and there would not have been that much Bowe could've done about it.... that's why i won't consider it "the best hw display since Ali/Frazier". It was one of the most entertaining fights since then, that's for sure.

What would you say was the best hw display since Ali/Frazier?

[Bokaj]

:blood

Does it hurt that much that your hero's best perfomance (one that you for once doesn't have to pull out any excuses for) doesn't belong with the truly classic ones? Your boy shows a lot of skill and heart, but just eats too much leather against a guy who chooses to fight completely the wrong fight.

[mr. magoo]

Evander Holyfield was never disciplined enough to keep it a boxing match with Riddick Bowe. He even slugged it out at times in the rematch, only Bowe was in horrible physical shape and paid the price for it.


Could very well be the case..

[lefthook31]

Does it hurt that much that your hero's best perfomance (one that you for once doesn't have to pull out any excuses for) doesn't belong with the truly classic ones? Your boy shows a lot of skill and heart, but just eats too much leather against a guy who chooses to fight completely the wrong fight.
:blood You really think he could have outboxed Bowe in that fight? The second fight was close, Bowe was coming on strong before the fan man, plus Bowe was heavier. It was not a foregone conclusion Evander would easily outbox Bowe. Bowe was good at dragging guys into slugfests, he could box and slug when needed.

[mr. magoo]

:blood You really think he could have outboxed Bowe in that fight? The second fight was close, Bowe was coming on strong before the fan man, plus Bowe was heavier. It was not a foregone conclusion Evander would easily outbox Bowe. Bowe was good at dragging guys into slugfests, he could box and slug when needed.

I don't think that its a forgone conclusion at all. But, I think the point is that he didn't even try to execute such a fight plan in the first bout. In the second match, he boxed a bit more and did manage to gain better results. Now, I agree that it was a very close and indecisive win, and one that may have been different had the action not been stopped due to the parachute bullshit.. Nevertheless, I think we can both agree that had Evander boxed Bowe his chances would have been better in the first match.. As it stands, it still wasn't a bad effort anyway.

[Bokaj]

:blood You really think he could have outboxed Bowe in that fight? The second fight was close, Bowe was coming on strong before the fan man, plus Bowe was heavier. It was not a foregone conclusion Evander would easily outbox Bowe. Bowe was good at dragging guys into slugfests, he could box and slug when needed.

Here comes the excuses. Right on cue.

Seriously, though, it's hard to say for sure, but when Holyfield boxes Bowe he does well. If it's Bowe that's good at drawing Holyfield into slugging or if it's Holyfield that's poor at not getting drawn in is something we only can speculate on. What we do know, though, is that Holyfield had a penchant for brawling when he really shouldn't.

As for the second fight, we shouldn't forget that Holyfield also was heavier and I never felt that the fan man-incident clearly favoured Holyfield. He was doing good at the time for the interruption.

[ChrisPontius]

What would you say was the best hw display since Ali/Frazier?

If you're talking about a skillful performance against a top opponent, there are several that come to mind:

-Holmes vs Cooney
-Tyson vs Spinks
-Douglas vs Tyson
-Holyfield vs Bowe II
-Lewis vs Holyfield I
-Lewis vs Golota
-Tua vs Ibeabuchi



I agree completely. Bowe's offense is impressive for such a big guy, but fuck is he there to be hit. His defense is too poor for it to be considered a classic perfomance.

Yes, Frazier also ate a lot of leather against Ali in the early stages of FOTC. But Ali wasn't just a sharp puncher (which Holyfield also was), he was also faster and bigger than Frazier and tried to keep it at range.

Yes, and i will add that Frazier had a style that always meant he was going to have to take punishment to be effective. Bowe shouldn't have, but did.


Very true..

Sadly, the Bowe fight was a very winnable match for Holyfield. Hindsite tells us that Riddick didn't cover up very well against a good jab, and was more comfortable out muscling smaller opponents. Had Evander boxed he may very well have squeaked by on a close decision, then fought a pre-steward Lewis, in a match that he would have had a fair chance of taking as well...


I've never really thought about it, but Lewis vs Holyfield in 1992 is quite interesting. I would pick Lewis to drag the then-lighter and weaker Holyfield to a battle of big punches which he loses... but in 1993, the one that beat Bowe in the rematch, is at least 50/50 with that fast but raw and technically flawed version of Lewis.

[mr. magoo]

I've never really thought about it, but Lewis vs Holyfield in 1992 is quite interesting. I would pick Lewis to drag the then-lighter and weaker Holyfield to a battle of big punches which he loses... but in 1993, the one that beat Bowe in the rematch, is at least 50/50 with that fast but raw and technically flawed version of Lewis.


Possibly one of the better fights that never happened. Had Holyfield gotten by Bowe in late 1992, he likely would have faced Lewis sometime around May of 1993. Evander was 30 years of age, while Lewis I think, would have been something like 28. Both men would have been coming off the biggest wins of their careers, and holding undfeated records..

I don't know how much stronger Holyfield was in his later years. He was 205 lbs for the first Bowe meeting, and around 215 for the first Lewis match of 1999. Its certainly possible that being 10 lbs heavier may have had a bearing on strength, but then again, so does being 6-7 years older. I'm not sure that he was really physically stronger at that point, and even if he was, he certainly wasn't as explosive in terms of raw power, as can be witnessed by his declining tendency to put away opponents.

[Muchmoore]

:blood You really think he could have outboxed Bowe in that fight? The second fight was close, Bowe was coming on strong before the fan man, plus Bowe was heavier. It was not a foregone conclusion Evander would easily outbox Bowe. Bowe was good at dragging guys into slugfests, he could box and slug when needed.

Bowe was a man stuck between styles, not a guy who could slug when needed and then stick and move when needed. He was half a boxer and half a puncher and this hurt him.

Bowe couldn't stop jabs for shit. Say what you want about the Golota fights, but it had a lot to do with the fact that Golota threw jabs as much as his deteoration which came about because of his lack of defense. Bowe could outslug guys like Evander because they were small, and not power punchers, Bowe's a god damned super heavyweight, he SHOULD be able to outslug a guy that barely weighs 200 and not a puncher. When Evander decided to use his brain a little bit he made Bowe look silly by moving and jabbing.

[mr. magoo]

Another thing that some seem to have forgotten, is that upon losing the first match against Bowe, Holyfield fired Lou Duva and brought aboard Emanual Steward. I think it was largely because of this move that Evander was able to devise a better plan for facing Bowe. Steward has a good track record of taking fighters who just suffered a loss and helping them to redeem themeselves. Duva on the otherhand, does not have much of a success rate at teaching old dogs new tricks. Had Evander chosen to stick with the Duva family, I'm inclined to thinking that the second fight may have had a similar outcome to the first match, perhaps even resulting in a wider verdict for Bowe...

[Robbi]

I'm not too sure Holyfield would've outboxed Bowe in the first fight if he elected to box at long range. Bowe was in better shape for that first fight. Mentally he was right up for the fight more than the rematch, no matter which style he used. And less weight would have seen his jab and reflexes even shaper in a boxing contest for the first match. Lets not forget, Holyfield was only slightly getting the better of Bowe in the rematch. His double jab was his signature weapon.

[godking]

I watched this fight the other night, and as well as being a tremendous encounter (really makes you aware of how soporific today's crop are, watch Wlad v Ibragimov/Rahman/Thompson after that fight and I guarantee you cry tears of regret!), it really was a superb all-round performance from Riddick Bowe IMO.

Now, Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson, Larry Holmes and others (anyone seen Michael Moorer v Axel Schulz? I really liked Moorer in that fight) produced some truly great hw displays. Tyson v Pinklon Thomas was another I really liked.

However, considering the standard of opposition, the standard of performance, the magnitude of the fight etc, I think Bowe's showing in the first Holyfield fight was quite possibly the best hw performance since the Golden Age of Ali and Frazier.


I should say though, I am not nor ever will be a big fan of hw boxing, so my knowledge of it isn't great and I could be way off here.

Anyone agree or disagree with my call here?

:bbbNo it was'nt Good fight but not the best since Ali frazier.

[godking]

I personally think Bowe started declining not long after the first fight with Holyfield,rather than Evander coming up with a superior strategy in the second fight.Not really Bowe always had bad defense and could be outjabbed rather easily. In the second fight Holyfield opted to box more .

I believe that if Holy had stuck to boxing instead of brawling he would have won the first fight as well.

[ChrisPontius]

Another thing that some seem to have forgotten, is that upon losing the first match against Bowe, Holyfield fired Lou Duva and brought aboard Emanual Steward. I think it was largely because of this move that Evander was able to devise a better plan for facing Bowe. Steward has a good track record of taking fighters who just suffered a loss and helping them to redeem themeselves. Duva on the otherhand, does not have much of a success rate at teaching old dogs new tricks. Had Evander chosen to stick with the Duva family, I'm inclined to thinking that the second fight may have had a similar outcome to the first match, perhaps even resulting in a wider verdict for Bowe...

Although i haven't seen it in a while, i remember Holyfield being absolutely GUTTED about losing to Bowe. He went straight to his dressing room, where Merchant interviewed him a bit later. He talked about being disappointed, retirement.... the irony that 17 years later he's not talking about any of those.

On Holy's weight, maybe it's mental, but i feel he's a bit more capable of holding his own around the ring at 215lbs than at 205lbs. The fact that he simply boxed smarter during the rematch was the essential factor of course, but i think the lighter version of him would do better against a slick opponent, like a Walcott, Charles, Byrd or Young... while the stronger version would be better suited for the big guys, including Tyson as we've seen.

[Addie]

Not really Bowe always had bad defense and could be outjabbed rather easily. In the second fight Holyfield opted to box more .

I believe that if Holy had stuck to boxing instead of brawling he would have won the first fight as well.

Holyfield had more success because he changed his gameplan, but also because Bowe wasn't the fighter he was before he won the title. I haven't made this up by the way, just look at his belly in the rematch. He was eating crap, not training as hard as before, and eventually this eroded his skills to the point of being beaten to a pulp by the good but not great Andrew Golota.

Bowe can be outjabbed, but Holyfield isn't going to be on the outside during a 12 round fight with Bowe. He wasn't in the rematch or their rubber match. If an in shape Bowe was in the rematch, he'd have been more likely to close the distance quicker, and to pile on the pressure on a more consistant basis, just as he did in '92.

[lefthook31]

Here comes the excuses. Right on cue.

Seriously, though, it's hard to say for sure, but when Holyfield boxes Bowe he does well. If it's Bowe that's good at drawing Holyfield into slugging or if it's Holyfield that's poor at not getting drawn in is something we only can speculate on. What we do know, though, is that Holyfield had a penchant for brawling when he really shouldn't.

As for the second fight, we shouldn't forget that Holyfield also was heavier and I never felt that the fan man-incident clearly favoured Holyfield. He was doing good at the time for the interruption.

Watch the fight again. Bowe weighed in heavier, there was also a guy who parachuted in the ring right when Bowe had some serious momentum. Not excuses, just facts.

[lefthook31]

Although i haven't seen it in a while, i remember Holyfield being absolutely GUTTED about losing to Bowe. He went straight to his dressing room, where Merchant interviewed him a bit later. He talked about being disappointed, retirement.... the irony that 17 years later he's not talking about any of those.

On Holy's weight, maybe it's mental, but i feel he's a bit more capable of holding his own around the ring at 215lbs than at 205lbs. The fact that he simply boxed smarter during the rematch was the essential factor of course, but i think the lighter version of him would do better against a slick opponent, like a Walcott, Charles, Byrd or Young... while the stronger version would be better suited for the big guys, including Tyson as we've seen.
THe reason is that Holyfield had sparred Bowe several times in the gym and Bowe didnt do well against him and wasnt able to keep up with Holy. A different Bowe showed up fight night which completely suprised Holyfield and after the second fight, gave Holy a newfound respect for Bowe and they became close friends after the fight.

[lefthook31]

Bowe was a man stuck between styles, not a guy who could slug when needed and then stick and move when needed. He was half a boxer and half a puncher and this hurt him.

Bowe couldn't stop jabs for shit. Say what you want about the Golota fights, but it had a lot to do with the fact that Golota threw jabs as much as his deteoration which came about because of his lack of defense. Bowe could outslug guys like Evander because they were small, and not power punchers, Bowe's a god damned super heavyweight, he SHOULD be able to outslug a guy that barely weighs 200 and not a puncher. When Evander decided to use his brain a little bit he made Bowe look silly by moving and jabbing.
So should Tyson, Lennox Lewis, and a few other guys who couldnt. Give Holy the credit for being a very strong determined man who was hard to back up and was very accurate with his punches and counterpunches. Lennox Lewis for the most part ran from him in both fights, and he should have overwhelmed Holy with his size. Contrary to what you believe Riddick Bowe was not as big in the first fight. Physically he looked a lot different.

[Bokaj]

Watch the fight again. Bowe weighed in heavier, there was also a guy who parachuted in the ring right when Bowe had some serious momentum. Not excuses, just facts.

I know Bowe weighed in heavier but so did Holyfield. That extra weight meant that Holyfield also would be a bit slower.

Anyhow, Bowe was never hard to hit and this is a very serious flaw when fighting other skilled big punchers. When he did, we know what happened.

It seems more and more sensible for him to have ducked Lewis. You do not want to face Lewis' right hand if your defense is lacking. He was durable enough to take the best Holyfield threw at him, but it's doubtful if he could have done the same against Lewis. By ducking Lewis it seems that he himself didn't think so.

[DINAMITA]

If you're talking about a skillful performance against a top opponent, there are several that come to mind:

-Holmes vs Cooney

Bowe's showing beats this IMO. Cooney was never on Holyfield's level.

Tyson vs Spinks
Lewis vs Golota

I know what you're saying here. Two greats absolutely obliterated two legitimate live threats. However, a first-round blowout is not what I would call an "all-round performance". IMO, Tyson-Thomas and Lewis-Rahman II/Lewis-Tua were better indications of either man's ability.

Douglas vs Tyson

Definitely a good call with this one though. The way Douglas implemented his gameplan was exceptional. I suppose the reason I gave the edge to Bowe is because Bowe was the superior fighter all-round.

Holyfield vs Bowe II

Again, a fair call. I'd back Bowe of the first fight to beat Holyfield of the second fight though. I think Bowe's performance was better all-round, but I can easily understand why someone would take the opposite view, given their respective sizes.

Lewis vs Holyfield I

Not at all IMO. That Holyfield was a ghost of the one Bowe tamed.

Tua vs Ibeabuchi

Great fight, close fight, neither man was more impressive than Bowe was v Holyfield.

[lefthook31]

I know Bowe weighed in heavier but so did Holyfield. That extra weight meant that Holyfield also would be a bit slower.

Anyhow, Bowe was never hard to hit and this is a very serious flaw when fighting other skilled big punchers. When he did, we know what happened.

It seems more and more sensible for him to have ducked Lewis. You do not want to face Lewis' right hand if your defense is lacking. He was durable enough to take the best Holyfield threw at him, but it's doubtful if he could have done the same against Lewis. By ducking Lewis it seems that he himself didn't think so.

Bowe clearly won the first fight. The second fight was razor close. In what fights was Bowe susceptible to jabs and easily hit? Please dont say the Golota fights........

[godking]

Bowe clearly won the first fight. The second fight was razor close. In what fights was Bowe susceptible to jabs and easily hit? Please dont say the Golota fights........Holy 1 & 2

For 1

secondly almost everyone had 50 + % connect rates against him.

Bowe had crappy defense and an inability to handle a good jab something admitted to himself. Only you seen deluded enough to claim otherwise.

[lefthook31]

Holy 1 & 2

For 1

secondly almost everyone had 50 + % connect rates against him.

Bowe had crappy defense and an inability to handle a good jab something admitted to himself. Only you seen deluded enough to claim otherwise.
Your talking about Evander Holyfield, argueably one of the greatest heavyweights. Part of the reason Holyfield was so good for being a small man was his excellent jab and boxing ability. Whose deluded? Name some more. I think half the people commenting in this forum have seen Bowe Holyfield and Bowe Golota, and your one of them...

[Bokaj]

Bowe clearly won the first fight. The second fight was razor close. In what fights was Bowe susceptible to jabs and easily hit? Please dont say the Golota fights........

In which fights wasn't he? Holyfield landed lots of jabs on him even in the first fight. You can do your whole song and dance about how the Golota fights shouldn't count, but Holyfield and Golota were Bowe's two best opponents and neither had much trouble landing on him.

I mean, does he slip or duck even fucking one of Holyfield's punches? What he does effectively is that he counters even though he gets hit. His advantage in size, strength and power let's him get away with this. But it's not a tactic I would recommend against for example Tyson or Lewis.

[Bokaj]

Your talking about Evander Holyfield, argueably one of the greatest heavyweights. Part of the reason Holyfield was so good for being a small man was his excellent jab and boxing ability. Whose deluded? Name some more. I think half the people commenting in this forum have seen Bowe Holyfield and Bowe Golota, and your one of them...

Holyfield was a very good boxer, but not on the Ali/Holmes level. A 42-year old Holmes got the better of him in boxing terms. Holyfield won that fight by his vastly superior workrate, but Holmes made him look really bad at times.

Holyfield never put on a boxing clinic against a skilled opponent who brought his best to the table. So he was by no means a master boxer.

[Ste Hawkins]

In a word, NO.

[lefthook31]

In which fights wasn't he? Holyfield landed lots of jabs on him even in the first fight. You can do your whole song and dance about how the Golota fights shouldn't count, but Holyfield and Golota were Bowe's two best opponents and neither had much trouble landing on him.

I mean, does he slip or duck even fucking one of Holyfield's punches? What he does effectively is that he counters even though he gets hit. His advantage in size, strength and power let's him get away with this. But it's not a tactic I would recommend against for example Tyson or Lewis.
I thought so, you havent seen any of Bowes other fights. Bowe didnt just walk in with no defense, he could slip punches, catch them on his gloves, and fight well on the inside and outside. Like Holyfield he was a boxer puncher, not a pure boxer. They basically fought the same type of style. Bowe got hit a little more because he was willing to mix it up and wanted to be exciting and not dance around the ring or hold like a Lennox Lewis or Wladmir Klitschko, who cant, or couldnt fight a lick inside. You say that detracts from his legacy, I applaud it, makes for exciting fights as far as I am concerned. Id rather watch Bowe Holyfield over Holyfield Lewis anyday, Lewis looked like a sissy running from a smaller man the way he did in that fight.
Holyfield wasnt a master boxer? Undisputed cruiserweight champion, undisputed heavyweight champion?? He won all his fights slugging right? Holyfield was not a pure boxer, he was boxer puncher, thats a style in its own, same as pure boxer, or slugger/brawler.

[DamonD]

Take a drink every time Bowe lands a right uppercut in that '92 fight.

Take a drink every time Holyfield throws a left hook.

You'll be seeing pink elephants before the 4th ;)

[lefthook31]

Holyfield was a very good boxer, but not on the Ali/Holmes level. A 42-year old Holmes got the better of him in boxing terms. Holyfield won that fight by his vastly superior workrate, but Holmes made him look really bad at times.

Holyfield never put on a boxing clinic against a skilled opponent who brought his best to the table. So he was by no means a master boxer.
Thats because Ali and Holmes were pure boxers, they liked to operate and keep the fight on the outside, and thats why a lot of Holmes fights put you to sleep.

[lefthook31]

Take a drink every time Bowe lands a right uppercut in that '92 fight.

Take a drink every time Holyfield throws a left hook.

You'll be seeing pink elephants before the 4th ;)
yes..:dead

[PowerPuncher]

It wasn't the best HW display in November 1992

[Robbi]

Thats because Ali and Holmes were pure boxers, they liked to operate and keep the fight on the outside, and thats why a lot of Holmes fights put you to sleep.

Aren't you a fan of a nice long left jab, movement, right hands and combinations?

[ChrisPontius]

Holyfield was a very good boxer, but not on the Ali/Holmes level. A 42-year old Holmes got the better of him in boxing terms. Holyfield won that fight by his vastly superior workrate, but Holmes made him look really bad at times.

Holyfield never put on a boxing clinic against a skilled opponent who brought his best to the table. So he was by no means a master boxer.

I have to disagree here. To me, Holyfield was a master boxer, and to me has one of the more aesthetically pleasing styles. You have to remember that he was fighting uphill in every one of his bouts in the 90's, and fighting father time as well. As for the boxing clinic against a skilled opponent, does a 22-1 favorite in Tyson suffice, when Holyfield was 34 himself?

[Robbi]

I have to disagree here. To me, Holyfield was a master boxer, and to me has one of the more aesthetically pleasing styles. You have to remember that he was fighting uphill in every one of his bouts in the 90's, and fighting father time as well.

For the most part fighting opponents with a huge weight advantage as well.

[lefthook31]

Aren't you a fan of a nice long left jab, movement, right hands and combinations?
Movement combinations good jab yes. No infighting jab right hand only a lot of tieing up no!

[Muchmoore]

I thought so, you havent seen any of Bowes other fights. Bowe didnt just walk in with no defense, he could slip punches, catch them on his gloves, and fight well on the inside and outside

Against who was Bowe doing this on? The legendary Bruce Seldon and Jorge Luis Gonzalez :lol: ? It's easy to look good and show things against tomato cans, but even against them I've never seen Bowe do the things you listed.

Even a past best Tony Tubbs had an even night with Riddick because he couldn't do shit to defend himself. Holyfield is the best matchup for Bowe imaginable, he was very lucky that Holy was the champ at the time.

[Bokaj]

I have to disagree here. To me, Holyfield was a master boxer, and to me has one of the more aesthetically pleasing styles. You have to remember that he was fighting uphill in every one of his bouts in the 90's, and fighting father time as well. As for the boxing clinic against a skilled opponent, does a 22-1 favorite in Tyson suffice, when Holyfield was 34 himself?

It don't feel he qualifies as a master boxer. He wasn't elusive enough for one thing. But he was a very good boxer. Against Tyson he fought a very smart fight, but it was only when Tyson gassed that he began to take over. It was not like Douglas who put on a clinic and dominated Tyson from round one.

A master boxer wouldn't have the trouble he had with Cooper and old Holmes. That's how I see it.

[Bokaj]

I thought so, you havent seen any of Bowes other fights. Bowe didnt just walk in with no defense, he could slip punches, catch them on his gloves, and fight well on the inside and outside. Like Holyfield he was a boxer puncher, not a pure boxer. They basically fought the same type of style. Bowe got hit a little more because he was willing to mix it up and wanted to be exciting and not dance around the ring or hold like a Lennox Lewis or Wladmir Klitschko, who cant, or couldnt fight a lick inside. You say that detracts from his legacy, I applaud it, makes for exciting fights as far as I am concerned. Id rather watch Bowe Holyfield over Holyfield Lewis anyday, Lewis looked like a sissy running from a smaller man the way he did in that fight.
Holyfield wasnt a master boxer? Undisputed cruiserweight champion, undisputed heavyweight champion?? He won all his fights slugging right? Holyfield was not a pure boxer, he was boxer puncher, thats a style in its own, same as pure boxer, or slugger/brawler.

That Holyfield accomplished a lot doesn't make him into a master boxer. As for Bowe, the only two good opponents I've seen him against is Holyfield and Golota, guess why...

I've seen Bowe KO some tomato cans as well, but I don't read too much into perfomances like that. The bottom line is that just about everyone here except you agrees that Bowe was easy to hit, and he never proved otherwise. Yes, he was exciting to watch, but that doesn't mean he didn't have flaws, rather it is partly because of it.

He met only one big, hard punching fighter with skills in his career and was beaten up both times. Strange coincidence that he blatantly ducked the opponent with the greatest combination of skill and power at the time.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Can't be arsed reading this thread, although I imagine there's some good debate but personally I was very impressed with Bowe that evening. Very much a 'man on a mission' type performance, one that encapsulated what it means to be heavyweight champion of the world. Bowe was willing to walk through anything thrown his way and wasn't going to leave the ring without the belt. He probably could have gone another 12 rounds that night.

[lefthook31]

Not even worth retorting those two other haters. If Bowe was such a garbage fighter, he wouldnt have won a silver medal in the olympics, caught the attention of the legendary Eddie Futch, and became undisputed heavyweight champion of the world, but I guess all the stars and planets aligned perfectly for him to coast through perfect stylistic matchups, great luck, and catch every good fighter on their worst night to get to the pinnacle of beating the best Holyfield for the championship?:lol:
Did Lewis beat a better fighter to become champion?
Did Tyson
Did Holyfield

[Muchmoore]

Did Lewis beat a better fighter to become champion?
Did Tyson
Did Holyfield

Lewis, Tyson, Holyfield had worthwhile achievements combined with their title winning performances.

Did Bowe?

[lefthook31]

Lewis, Tyson, Holyfield had worthwhile achievements combined with their title winning performances.

Did Bowe?
Oh I dont know?? Won the undiisputed championship, defended twice, lost a razor close decision to Holyfield in the rematch, onesidely beat the undefeated #1 WBC contender, won the WBO title, absoultely destroyed his undefeated amatuer nemesis, beat Holyfield in a trilogy. Thats pretty impressive in my book... Maybe you should watch some of his fights sometime, he was a pretty impressive fighter and was really the first and last big man that had so much dimension to his game.

[ChrisPontius]

It don't feel he qualifies as a master boxer. He wasn't elusive enough for one thing. But he was a very good boxer. Against Tyson he fought a very smart fight, but it was only when Tyson gassed that he began to take over. It was not like Douglas who put on a clinic and dominated Tyson from round one.

A master boxer wouldn't have the trouble he had with Cooper and old Holmes. That's how I see it.

Cooper is limited, but at the same time, a huge puncher and again, Holyfield was the smaller men in all of these battles. He got caught with a great shot, came close to being stopped, but came back and came back strong.

As for struggling with old Holmes..... he won 9 or 10 rounds out of 12, hardly what i call struggling. The same Holmes who shut out Ray Mercer.

By your logic, Ali wasn't a master boxer because he was nearly decapitated by Cooper (what's in a name) and struggled with Jones, Norton, etc.

Holmes struggled with Witherspoon and Williamsn, plus, he was close to being layed out by Snipes (not known for his punch)... does that disqualify him from being a master boxer?

[Muchmoore]

defended twice
Against coked up Dokes and the career journeyman Jesse Ferguson, two guys who should never of been anywhere near getting a title shot


onesidely beat the undefeated #1 WBC contender,

Saying beating Larry Donald is a worthwhile achievement is laughable. Donald had zero quality wins prior to Bowe, and had zero quality wins afterward.

won the WBO title,
Wow, from the legendary Herbie Hide!

absoultely destroyed his undefeated amatuer nemesis

You keep saying undefeated, but I'm pretty sure my grandma could of been undefeated had they fought the competition that Gonzalez, Donald etc faced.

beat Holyfield in a trilogy
Props to Bowe for that. But the circumstances surrounding the third fight with Holy completely gassing puts an asterik there even.

Thats pretty impressive in my book... Maybe you should watch some of his fights sometime, he was a pretty impressive fighter and was really the first and last big man that had so much dimension to his game.

Bowe had plenty of dimension except that one about protecting yourself :lol:
Maybe he should of fought Lennox to show off all the dimensions to his game :hey

[Bokaj]

Not even worth retorting those two other haters. If Bowe was such a garbage fighter, he wouldnt have won a silver medal in the olympics, caught the attention of the legendary Eddie Futch, and became undisputed heavyweight champion of the world, but I guess all the stars and planets aligned perfectly for him to coast through perfect stylistic matchups, great luck, and catch every good fighter on their worst night to get to the pinnacle of beating the best Holyfield for the championship?:lol:
Did Lewis beat a better fighter to become champion?
Did Tyson
Did Holyfield

That's the sign of a fanboy. Taking every criticism as a slander.

Thing is, I hold Bowe in quite high regard. He had size, durability, power, heart, stamina and an impressive offensive arsenal. But he wasn't skilled defensively. I see him being a formidable opponent for anyone without great power. But big, skilled guys with huge power - that's another kettle of fish. For my money, a prime Tyson is his worst stylistical match-up. Wouldn't be pretty.

[DINAMITA]

Incidentally, I am actually not a big fan of Bowe. But I don't need to be a fan to appreciate a special performance. I do understand some of the criticism and scepticism on this thread, as the claim I made for this performance was indeed a big one, but I genuinely do think it was a particularly fantastic heavyweight performance. I rate Lewis, Tyson and Holmes all significantly higher than Bowe p4p, but I still think that none of them ever had a night to match that one. Big Daddy had his flaws, but he was a tremendous boxer on his best night. If only we had someone like him (or indeed Holyfield) around today.

[lefthook31]

Against coked up Dokes and the career journeyman Jesse Ferguson, two guys who should never of been anywhere near getting a title shot




Saying beating Larry Donald is a worthwhile achievement is laughable. Donald had zero quality wins prior to Bowe, and had zero quality wins afterward.


Wow, from the legendary Herbie Hide!



You keep saying undefeated, but I'm pretty sure my grandma could of been undefeated had they fought the competition that Gonzalez, Donald etc faced.


Props to Bowe for that. But the circumstances surrounding the third fight with Holy completely gassing puts an asterik there even.



Bowe had plenty of dimension except that one about protecting yourself :lol:
Maybe he should of fought Lennox to show off all the dimensions to his game :hey
Your total hate for Bowe completely clouds any boxing sense that you might have. Thats ok, I dont need to try and convince you anymore. You could pretty much nitpick Lewis too. Whats worse Bowes compeititon around his first title run or Lennox Lewis who won the title against an ancient Tucker by boring decision, almost got knocked out by Bruno, beat a doorman Phil Jackson, and then got KO'd by Oliver Mcall???

[Bokaj]

Cooper is limited, but at the same time, a huge puncher and again, Holyfield was the smaller men in all of these battles. He got caught with a great shot, came close to being stopped, but came back and came back strong.

Should he have been caught with those shots, though? He also had an idiotic gameplan and tactical smartness is part of being a "master boxer" as I see it.

As for struggling with old Holmes..... he won 9 or 10 rounds out of 12, hardly what i call struggling. The same Holmes who shut out Ray Mercer.

I didn't have him winning by such a margin, personally. Anyhow he won clearly, but did so by outworking Holmes, not outboxing him. Holmes was the one who showed the most cunning and skill in my book, he just had no chance to keep Holyfield's pace.

By your logic, Ali wasn't a master boxer because he was nearly decapitated by Cooper (what's in a name) and struggled with Jones, Norton, etc.

Holmes struggled with Witherspoon and Williamsn, plus, he was close to being layed out by Snipes (not known for his punch)... does that disqualify him from being a master boxer?

Sure, Ali struggled at times, but he did put on some famous boxing clinics. Against guys like Liston, Patterson, Terrell, Quarry and Ellis for example. His win against Foreman could also be placed in that bracket. The only time I can think of when Holyfield looked that good against top opposition was against Douglas, who really only was there to collect the paycheck.

Edit: Holyfield looked great against Tyson, of course. But as I said in a previous post, it was not like he schooled him from start to finish. He held his ground very well for the first five rounds and then took over when Tyson started to gas.

Of course, it could also be said that Holmes didn't put on that many boxing clinics against skilled opposition. But I think he actually made Holyfield seem raw at times when they met.

It is a valid point that Holyfield very often gave up a big advantage in size. But bigger guys can be easier to outbox sometimes. He really should have run rings around Cooper, that's for sure. He shouldn't have been there to be hit as he was.

[lefthook31]

That's the sign of a fanboy. Taking every criticism as a slander.

Thing is, I hold Bowe in quite high regard. He had size, durability, power, heart, stamina and an impressive offensive arsenal. But he wasn't skilled defensively. I see him being a formidable opponent for anyone without great power. But big, skilled guys with huge power - that's another kettle of fish. For my money, a prime Tyson is his worst stylistical match-up. Wouldn't be pretty.
Fanboy? I dont think so, Im not a worshipper of Bowe, but I do think he had great potential, combined with his willingness to make an exciting fight by going for the KO. Thats what I like in a fighter. Ultimately he came up very short of his potential, which I feel was from more lack of discipline than lack of defense or skills. Personally I think the best Bowe would have given prime Tyson a run for his money, because unlike so many bigger guys that fought Tyson, Bowe could actually fight well on the inside, something Tyson really never saw until Buster Douglas took it to him.

[Bokaj]

Fanboy? I dont think so, Im not a worshipper of Bowe, but I do think he had great potential, combined with his willingness to make an exciting fight by going for the KO. Thats what I like in a fighter. Ultimately he came up very short of his potential, which I feel was from more lack of discipline than lack of defense or skills. Personally I think the best Bowe would have given prime Tyson a run for his money, because unlike so many bigger guys that fought Tyson, Bowe could actually fight well on the inside, something Tyson really never saw until Buster Douglas took it to him.

Well, you implied we made him out to be "a garbage fighter", and I don't think anyone here has come even close to saying that. That exagerration made you seem a bit touchy about all criticism against Bowe.

There seems to be a general consensus that Bowe's defense wasn't great, but otherwise I think he's a respected fighter on this forum. He certainly is by me. And that's just about what I have to say on this subject.

[lefthook31]

Well, you implied we made him out to be "a garbage fighter", and I don't think anyone here has come even close to saying that. That exagerration made you seem a bit touchy about all criticism against Bowe.

There seems to be a general consensus that Bowe's defense wasn't great, but otherwise I think he's a respected fighter on this forum. He certainly is by me. And that's just about what I have to say on this subject.
Even the greats have shortcomings. There is no perfect fighter, thats why for the most part, they all lose!!

[PowerPuncher]

Your total hate for Bowe completely clouds any boxing sense that you might have. Thats ok, I dont need to try and convince you anymore. You could pretty much nitpick Lewis too. Whats worse Bowes compeititon around his first title run or Lennox Lewis who won the title against an ancient Tucker by boring decision, almost got knocked out by Bruno, beat a doorman Phil Jackson, and then got KO'd by Oliver Mcall???

Complete bias here and largely untrue (Bruno nearly ko'ing Lewis :blood). All that matters is Lewis would have smashed Bowe within 2 rounds and Big Daddy new it and ran for the hills :yep:yep

[Muchmoore]

Your total hate for Bowe completely clouds any boxing sense that you might have. Thats ok, I dont need to try and convince you anymore. You could pretty much nitpick Lewis too. Whats worse Bowes compeititon around his first title run or Lennox Lewis who won the title against an ancient Tucker by boring decision, almost got knocked out by Bruno, beat a doorman Phil Jackson, and then got KO'd by Oliver Mcall???

Lennox beat Tua, Vitali, Rahman, Tyson, Briggs, Mercer, Morrison, Holyfield, Bruno, Ruddock, Mason, Golota, Grant. This blows everything Bowe accomplished out of the water.

As for my "total hate" towards Bowe, I have his career boxset and actually ENJOY watching him. There's a big difference between being a fan of a fighter but acknowledging his shortcomings and simply ignoring the facts because you're in love with a fighter.

[ED70]

For anyone that's interested, ESPN 2 is replaying Holyfield-Bowe I on Saturday, June 27th, 2009.

It looks like its at 5pm Eastern/4pm Central

They're also airing Holyfield vs. Foreman after at 6 eastern/5 central and
Holyfield vs. Cooper at 7pm edt/6pm cdt

[Silver]

well he was the stronger man and the bigger puncher so the brawling favored him. but holyfield moved away more and boxed in the rematch and won it

[MRBILL]

I watched this fight the other night, and as well as being a tremendous encounter (really makes you aware of how soporific today's crop are, watch Wlad v Ibragimov/Rahman/Thompson after that fight and I guarantee you cry tears of regret!), it really was a superb all-round performance from Riddick Bowe IMO.

Now, Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson, Larry Holmes and others (anyone seen Michael Moorer v Axel Schulz? I really liked Moorer in that fight) produced some truly great hw displays. Tyson v Pinklon Thomas was another I really liked.

However, considering the standard of opposition, the standard of performance, the magnitude of the fight etc, I think Bowe's showing in the first Holyfield fight was quite possibly the best hw performance since the Golden Age of Ali and Frazier.


I should say though, I am not nor ever will be a big fan of hw boxing, so my knowledge of it isn't great and I could be way off here.

Anyone agree or disagree with my call here?

:bbb

James "Butthole" Douglas' KO 10 of Tyson was pretty goddamn flawless, except, for the 8th round knockdown he suffered from a Tyson uppercut.....

Larry Holmes' methodical chopping down of hyped-up Gerry Cooney was also a very notable performance in a high-profile fight in 1982....

NOTE:

People gotta understand that Bowe beat up a 205 (Too Lean) Holyfield in 1992 while weighing himself a lean 235......... Bowe was about 2 1/2 inches taller and 30 pounds heavier than Holy, as well..... The age of 25 to 30 is still in the prime range, so I will not harp on that....... Peace...

MR.BILL:bbb:rasta

[ChrisPontius]

Should he have been caught with those shots, though? He also had an idiotic gameplan and tactical smartness is part of being a "master boxer" as I see it.



I didn't have him winning by such a margin, personally. Anyhow he won clearly, but did so by outworking Holmes, not outboxing him. Holmes was the one who showed the most cunning and skill in my book, he just had no chance to keep Holyfield's pace.



Sure, Ali struggled at times, but he did put on some famous boxing clinics. Against guys like Liston, Patterson, Terrell, Quarry and Ellis for example. His win against Foreman could also be placed in that bracket. The only time I can think of when Holyfield looked that good against top opposition was against Douglas, who really only was there to collect the paycheck.


See, this is where you're being unfair. Your previous criterion was that the opponent is very skilled, in his prime, brought his best, etc, and Liston, Patterson, Ellis do not belong in that column. Terrel pretty much stopped fighting after his eye was hurt in the 3rd. Quarry i will grant you. But you see how this works? For the record, i DO think those performances you listed are indications of how great a boxer he is, but let's not pretend they are all 100% clear examples of opponents being in optimal shape and at the high point of their career, which is basically what you demanded on Holyfield. And like i said, Ali had plenty of struggles as well, where in Holyfields case you said that this stopped him from being a master boxer.

You have nothing to refute this point i think your judgment is unfair. You say that Tyson wasn't dominated from bell one, so what? He was an awesome fighter and (in my opinion, and workrate seconds this, 38 punches instead of 19 per round against Douglas) in better shape than he was against Douglas. The first 5 rounds were something like 2-3 or 3-2 depending on who you liked better, but so what?

Tell me what the scores were in Ali-Liston after 6 rounds? About even, but everyone knew Ali was winning. Again, this is an example that you brought up. Note that Holyfield was considered washed up against Tyson.



Edit: Holyfield looked great against Tyson, of course. But as I said in a previous post, it was not like he schooled him from start to finish. He held his ground very well for the first five rounds and then took over when Tyson started to gas.

Of course, it could also be said that Holmes didn't put on that many boxing clinics against skilled opposition. But I think he actually made Holyfield seem raw at times when they met.

It is a valid point that Holyfield very often gave up a big advantage in size. But bigger guys can be easier to outbox sometimes. He really should have run rings around Cooper, that's for sure. He shouldn't have been there to be hit as he was.

Cooper was a substitute for a Tyson's substitute. The crowd expected Holyfield-Tyson and instead they get Cooper. Holyfield wanted to give them something and fought more aggressive than he should've, but he still showed he had all the boxers qualities and how many do you see landing a lead right uppercut/left hook that often? Yeah he got caught with a big punch he didn't so, but are you telling me that Ali and Holmes never got caught? Need i remind you of Shavers, Snipes, Witherspoon, Cooper or Banks? Note,again, that Holyfield fought in the era of punchers.

[MRBILL]

I was in the midst of popping a full woody when I saw Holmes outboxing McCall in 1995 for the first "7" rds of action, but then Holmes got tired and cut, and all hell broke loose from there on....... McCall kept his WBC title by a close shave........ Larry Holmes almost got it back at age 45.........

MR.BILL

[Bokaj]

See, this is where you're being unfair. Your previous criterion was that the opponent is very skilled, in his prime, brought his best, etc, and Liston, Patterson, Ellis do not belong in that column. Terrel pretty much stopped fighting after his eye was hurt in the 3rd. Quarry i will grant you. But you see how this works? For the record, i DO think those performances you listed are indications of how great a boxer he is, but let's not pretend they are all 100% clear examples of opponents being in optimal shape and at the high point of their career, which is basically what you demanded on Holyfield. And like i said, Ali had plenty of struggles as well, where in Holyfields case you said that this stopped him from being a master boxer.

It's not that Holyfield struggled on occassion that keeps him out. Rather that he didn't put on that many boxing clinics. And I didn't say anything that it have to be soemone who's in their absolute prime, just a top opponent. All the examples I listed concerning Ali was top contenders or champions when he fought them. Holyfield just doesn't have such perfomances. When it comes to Douglas, I'm sure you agree that he just didn't show up that night.


You have nothing to refute this point i think your judgment is unfair. You say that Tyson wasn't dominated from bell one, so what? He was an awesome fighter and (in my opinion, and workrate seconds this, 38 punches instead of 19 per round against Douglas) in better shape than he was against Douglas. The first 5 rounds were something like 2-3 or 3-2 depending on who you liked better, but so what?

I think this was a great perfomance by Holyfield. Maybe I'm a bit hard when saying it was not a masterful boxing exhibition, difficult to say. But I lean towards that he more outfought Tyson than outboxed him. He did fight very smart for once, though.

Tell me what the scores were in Ali-Liston after 6 rounds? About even, but everyone knew Ali was winning. Again, this is an example that you brought up. Note that Holyfield was considered washed up against Tyson.

This was a fight where the scored didn't tell the whole story. Ali controlled the whole of the fight, except round five where he was blinded. I think that's the only round Liston clearly won also.

Cooper was a substitute for a Tyson's substitute. The crowd expected Holyfield-Tyson and instead they get Cooper. Holyfield wanted to give them something and fought more aggressive than he should've, but he still showed he had all the boxers qualities and how many do you see landing a lead right uppercut/left hook that often? Yeah he got caught with a big punch he didn't so, but are you telling me that Ali and Holmes never got caught? Need i remind you of Shavers, Snipes, Witherspoon, Cooper or Banks? Note,again, that Holyfield fought in the era of punchers.

I was very impressed by the punching Holyfield put on display against Cooper. He punched as sharply as I've seen a HW punch. But he fought a stupid fight and was regularly caught with punches he shouldnt been caught with. He also punched himself out trying to finish Cooper off, but had a lucky break with one of Coopers' gloves needing replacing.

This was Jekyll/Hyde kind of fight for Holyfield. But he just fought with his head up his arse, and beatiful punching technique doesn't make up for that in my book.

[MRBILL]

I give Holy lil' credit for kayoing Douglas in '90 on PPV.............. Douglas had gone back to his old ways of eating pizza and farting in the sauna during training for that fiasco.... I am still pissed at Douglas to this day for that letdown showing......

Michael Moorer was putting on a solid display of boxing skills against Foreman for NINE rds in 1994.......... After nine rds of action, I had Moorer up 7 to 2 over Foreman...... Then round 10 came into view and Foreman lowered the boom......... I popped a woody big time....... That is still one of my top all-time moments for me in heavyweight boxing.......

MR.BILL

[TIGEREDGE]

bowe holyfield was the best HW fight since FOTC but i dont know about bowe performance being the best

those ahead of this have got to be:
Ali against foreman,
foreman against frasier,
holmes against norton: there were a few other greats from larry (shavers 2, mercer)
TYson against thomas, spinks, holmes, tucker

[mr. magoo]

bowe holyfield was the best HW fight since FOTC but i dont know about bowe performance being the best




If we're going by pure entertainment, I think Foreman-Lyle was a good one...

[godking]

Oh I dont know?? Won the undiisputed championship, defended twice, lost a razor close decision to Holyfield in the rematch, onesidely beat the undefeated #1 WBC contender, won the WBO title, absoultely destroyed his undefeated amatuer nemesis, beat Holyfield in a trilogy. Thats pretty impressive in my book... Maybe you should watch some of his fights sometime, he was a pretty impressive fighter and was really the first and last big man that had so much dimension to his game.
1 Won the undisputed Title then broke up the undisputed title by shamefully ducking his amatuer conqueror.

was never a legit champion again after he lost his belt ( the WBO title meant nothing back then still does'nt mean much now)

2 Defended against Garbage then lost his title To a smarter fighting Holyfield

3 In the most puncher heavy era ducked almost every legit puncher out there.Ironically ''Glas Jaw'' Lewis beat every legit puncher put infront of him .

4 Was the only Elite Heavy to get his ass kicked by Golota won only because of Golota's own stupidity the other elite HWS of the era easily put him in his place


Maybe impressive to you not to me.

[lefthook31]

1 Won the undisputed Title then broke up the undisputed title by shamefully ducking his amatuer conqueror.

was never a legit champion again after he lost his belt ( the WBO title meant nothing back then still does'nt mean much now)

2 Defended against Garbage then lost his title To a smarter fighting Holyfield

3 In the most puncher heavy era ducked almost every legit puncher out there.Ironically ''Glas Jaw'' Lewis beat every legit puncher put infront of him .

4 Was the only Elite Heavy to get his ass kicked by Golota won only because of Golota's own stupidity the other elite HWS of the era easily put him in his place


Maybe impressive to you not to me.
Should Bowe have gone ahead and fought Lewis right away after winning the title? Probably. Was this the typical path of all fighters once they won the title? Yes, they usually try to milk the title to make some big paydays. They all did it, including Lewis, Holyfield Tyson, etc. Was it Bowes fault that Lewis was knocked out by Mcall? No. There was a couple things that derailed them meeting down the road and it was not entirely Bowes fault. Really in this gap of time, there was really not too many other fighters for Bowe to face. His career was short and went fast and consisted of three mega fights with Holyfield which were the pinnacle and much more impressive than fighting guys like Tommy Morrison or Tony Tucker, or Oliver Mcall, who he most like would have beaten quite easily. I dont know what fighters he ducked, so maybe you can name some for me. The guy fought his way into the mandatory contender spot for Evanders belt, he wasnt bogusly inserted in the mix like most of the other fighters were at that time. Lewis is another one who fought himself into contention, but he couldnt maintain it against a guy who was in fact bogusly inserted into the mandatory spot.
Bowe was done by the Golota fights, in fact he should have retired after the third Holyfield fight.