MAB v JMM: Who won?

[achillesthegreat]

I've watched nine rounds and wondering what the ESB consensus is.

After 9 rounds the stats are ridiculous:
MAB threw 529 and landed 204
JMM threw 529 and landed 203

First time I scored it I remember I had MAB the victor. Can't remember my exact score so I am doing it again.

[Thread Stealer]

The decision was fair, the margins Juan won by were insane.

[KayEpps]

The decision was fair, the margins Juan won by were insane.

I agree!! :thumbsup

[achillesthegreat]

I scored it 7-5 MAB with JMM winning a bogus round.

Amazing fight. 12 CLOSE rounds of great boxing. I think MAB is the better fighter but JMM had ring age on his side.

[bladerunner]

I scored it 7-5 MAB with JMM winning a bogus round.

Amazing fight. 12 CLOSE rounds of great boxing. I think MAB is the better fighter but JMM had ring age on his side.
did you score the knockdown.

[Jose FM]

I had it 114-113 for MAB. I dont know what fight the officials and for that matter the referee was watching, that knockdown was a beauty, a right hand right on the chin, and yet it was ruled a slip and a point was deducted from MAB, actually now that i think about it, this fight was a joke, i cant believe these people still have jobs.

[errsta]

I had it for JMM. somewhere in the 8-4, 9-3 realm.

The KD not called was BS, though. Great round regardless.

[MacManJr.]

The decision was fair, the margins Juan won by were insane.Agreed

[Fedor Em]

I had Barrera winning by a point, with round 7 going 10-8 for Marquez. 7-5 Barrera with a point deducted. I could see someone scoring it 2-3 pts for Marquez though. Great fight with very close rounds.

[rr94]

JMM won by 7 rounds to 5... maybe even 7 rounds to 6 with 1 even.

:patsch :patsch

7 rounds to 6 with 1 even? was it a 14 round fight?? :vonnecunt

[shelterr]

Just watched this again last night and the first time I had it a draw leaning towards MAB, but watching it again I have JMM winning by a point or two. Even if there was no knockdown point deduction fiasco i still have JMM winning the fight by a point. He just looked more dominant in the later rounds and really did land the harder shots throughout. Insane judging in that fight for sure.

[brooklyn1550]

Marquez: 7 Rounds (maybe 8 )
Barrera: 5 Rounds (maybe 4)

115-112 or 116-111 would be good scores which I would be fine with

Of course there were a lot of close rounds, but I still thought Marquez by UD was the correct choice

[psychopath]

I've watched nine rounds and wondering what the ESB consensus is.

After 9 rounds the stats are ridiculous:
MAB threw 529 and landed 204
JMM threw 529 and landed 203

First time I scored it I remember I had MAB the victor. Can't remember my exact score so I am doing it again.

The right fighter won . . . it's JMM. But I can't believe the judges scorecards . . . it can't be that lopsided.

[Robbi]

Marquez: 7 Rounds (maybe 8)
Barrera: 5 Rounds (maybe 4)

115-112 or 116-111 would be good scores

Of course there were a lot of close rounds

Agreed. Marquez by no less than 2 points at a push in my eyes. Marquez clearly won the fight, and no question about it.

A very competitive fight, but a clear winner.

[BewareofDawg]

JMM Clearly Won in My Eyes.

[BewareofDawg]

From what I've heard, most people ringside actually scored it much like the judges did. I also scored it by a wider margin in JMM's favor. What I'm thinking is that many were influenced by the biased commentating by HBO, because those guys were pointing out things that Barrera was hardly doing or not doing at all. Barrera was being competitive every single round but I only saw him actually winning a few of them.
Bingo!

They were calling shots landed for Barrera, when he was the one in fact getting tagged. Awful commentating

[theunderdog]

i had mab winning by a point. i scored the knockdown. i don't need a freaking referee to tell me what i saw.

[Robbi]

Marquez clearly landed more, and made Barrera miss more when they both opened up and traded power shots.

It was not a wide decision, like Barrera only winning 2 or 3 rounds, but he lost the fight without question I thought.

[Imperial1]

MAB was robbed !

[Robbi]

MAB was robbed !

:bush

[Morrissey]

JMM claerly won but IMO, he was greatly outboxed by MAB for the first five rounds.

If that was a prime MAB, the outcome would have been different.

[hooligan]

i really thought that mab would have won if not for his dirty antics after the kd but after hearing the scorecards, mab is getting screwed no matter what.

[la-califa]

Barrera was jobbed, no doubt. But it could have been a blessing for him. His "Loss" finally got Pacquaio back in the ring. If Barrera won, Pacquaio might have been more reluctant to fight MAB again. If Barrera beats Pac then he can settle the score with Marquez and retire with Chavez like legendary status in Mexico.

[4Rounder]

Juan Manuel took the win, there is no question, its actually the wide score of one judge and round 7 that add unneeded controvercy.

you gotta be very biased towards Marco to say he was robbed.

116-111 by two judges was correct. If Round 7 would have been called as a round for MAB then it ends at 114-113.

7 Rounds to 5 for Juan Manuel Marquez. JMM showed that he could adjust better than MAB.

I don't know where this stuff that a prime MAB would beat JMM came from because JMM is not in his prime neither. His older fights show him to be faster and sharper.

[jimmie]

Had Barrera by a point if the KD is called and the point is taken away its likely 9-9 round instead 10-8 for Marquez and Barrera would win clearly on my card. Them judges and refs where just fucked up that whole night anyway nothing agianst JMM cause the 2nd time I watched it I did score it for him.

[DanePugilist]

JMM deserved to be called the victor.Nice Avatar you got there... Very witchlike:cool:

[DanePugilist]

Bute needs all the help he can get!Beware of the curse though:rofl

[boxbox]

JMM won..it looked like a close fight, but i saw JMM connecting more than MAB did, even in rounds that MAB was the aggressor.

[PATSYS]

I thought Jmm won by close decision.

[mad_takamura]

mab won..jmm fans can't take it cause they hang too much to his nuts

[My dinner with Conteh]

mab won..jmm fans can't take it cause they hang too much to his nuts


jmm fans can't take what? The fact that he won. :good

[coffeehunk]

barrera!

[koko of phil]

I have MAB winning without that foul punch he threw on Marquez.

[Rumsfeld]

I'm a Barrera fan, and although the fight was much more competitive than my own scorecard seems to indicate, I had MAB losing big-time (118-109).

Barrera just wasn't doing enough to win rounds, IMO.

Make no mistake--I thought Barrera would win, and I wanted him to win.

I wrote a brief piece both before and after the bout for confirmation of this, and I just don't believe Barrera did what he needed to do in order to win.

[Rumsfeld]

My scorecard came out to be about the same. Yes Marco was being competitive throughout, but he wasn't doing enough to actually win the rounds. As I've stated the bias commentary probably had much to do with the fact that so many believed that MAB actually won. They had fairly close and competitive rounds the entire way, and viewers could easily be swayed into thinking one guy won rounds over the other with the help of bias commentary from HBO.

Agreed.

It broke my heart watching MAB unable to do just that little bit extra in order to secure victory. He had every tool needed to beat JMM--he just didn't seem to want to take the risks needed to outwork JMM.

He could have easily won, but he was being outhustled--just enough--to lose the majority of rounds.

JMM fought a very smart fight that night.

[Rumsfeld]

Yup, Barrera was doing good every single round keeping up with JMM, but he couldn't quite match JMM's quickness and energy that night who was popping in with clean right hands and good combinations throughout the fight. It looked like MAB just couldn't match pace with Marquez.

A fight with both of these two in their absolute primes would have been a more interresting ordeal seeing as how the Barrera of back then would've been able to match energy with Marquez a lot better.

Agreed.

Although fighting Pacquiao is nothing like a match-up with JMM, I fear MAB's inferior workrate will once again be his undoing.

[Rumsfeld]

Damn I'm very afraid of that as well. But all these allegations coming from the Manny camp that he's unfocused might be just the edge that MAB needs to pull this one off. If Manny comes in under-prepared or drained from not losing the weight properly, then an in shape ready-to-go Barrera, could possibly match pace with Pacquiao along with a good fight plan.

Although I'm not sure keeping up with Pacman would be the best strategy here, finding a gameplan that works to neutralize Manny's enrgy and attack would probably be MAB's best strategy to victory like what he did with Juarez. Then again Rocky is no Manny, so Barrera will have to work his ass off and give an all time great performance in my opinion to take this one. We'll just have to see.

Go Barrera!

:smoke

GO BARRERA, INDEED!!!

:hh :hh :hh

[charlievint]

I've watched nine rounds and wondering what the ESB consensus is.

After 9 rounds the stats are ridiculous:
MAB threw 529 and landed 204
JMM threw 529 and landed 203

First time I scored it I remember I had MAB the victor. Can't remember my exact score so I am doing it again.

I had it one round for MAB...two at the very most. It was a close fight but I think MAB did enough to get the nod.

[Doomas]

I had JMM winning by 1 point. Fishy stuff.

[achillesthegreat]

did you score the knockdown.
I scored it 7-5 with and JMM gets a kd.

Bogus round. JMM was clearly put down. MABs late punch was even the refs fault. MAB didn't hit him straight away, he paused. Nady left it too long and by the time he touched MAB, instinct had told him to punch this guy again.

[divac]

My scorecard came out to be about the same. Yes Marco was being competitive throughout, but he wasn't doing enough to actually win the rounds. As I've stated the bias commentary probably had much to do with the fact that so many believed that MAB actually won. They had fairly close and competitive rounds the entire way, and viewers could easily be swayed into thinking one guy won rounds over the other with the help of bias commentary from HBO.

Unfortunately, the commentating team at HBO is good enough to brainwash most except for the most astute boxing fans at home.

Its not any coincidence that most boxing scribes who viewed the fight live had JMM clearly beating MAB.

The same thing happened in the Mosely-DLH rematch.
Those who watched live almost to a man, were of the opinion that Mosely beat DLH.....but those who watched the HBO telecast were outraged and pointing to what HBO had fed them the entire night, that it was a robbery!

[Biggame]

I had JMM winning a competative fight. I myself after watching the fight over and over again found myself scoring it 116-12. That's the closest I got, and I even Scored it 117-111. After scoring the KD on y own card I still had JMM up 115-113. I had no doubt who won the fight.

HBO can really sway folks watching on TV. They can convince you that MAB was right there and the fight was up in the air even while you're looking at MAB frustrated expressions! He indeed was determined, but you couldn't help but notice that he was beyond frustrated. At one point it almost seemed like he didn't want to be there anymore.

Now on a side night I always felt a prime JMM would beat both MAB, and EM! MAB has a big fight coming up, and I think he'll be much better prepared for the rematch which he always does good in. I think he has enough to pull off the victory, and then have a rematch w/JMM! I don't think he'll win it, but it should be a given for whoever wins between MAB and PAC!!

[divac]

I had JMM winning a competative fight. I myself after watching the fight over and over again found myself scoring it 116-12. That's the closest I got, and I even Scored it 117-111. After scoring the KD on y own card I still had JMM up 115-113. I had no doubt who won the fight.

HBO can really sway folks watching on TV. They can convince you that MAB was right there and the fight was up in the air even while you're looking at MAB frustrated expressions! He indeed was determined, but you couldn't help but notice that he was beyond frustrated. At one point it almost seemed like he didn't want to be there anymore.

Now on a side night I always felt a prime JMM would beat both MAB, and EM! MAB has a big fight coming up, and I think he'll be much better prepared for the rematch which he always does good in. I think he has enough to pull off the victory, and then have a rematch w/JMM! I don't think he'll win it, but it should be a given for whoever wins between MAB and PAC!!

We are of the same opinion that JMM has been the best featherweight all along.

There are those of the opinion that state that MAB being competitive with JMM was proof that he would beat JMM in a prime for prime matchup.
......of course, they turn a blind eye to the fact that JMM is not only older than MAB, but has lost some speed and quickness himself.

.......and then not only that. The fight would have played out differently in a prime for prime matchup.
For their actual fight, Nacho Beristein (JMM's trainer) noted that JMM would have to attack and take the title from the legend.
"We cannot afford and sit back and wait for MAB to come to us so that JMM can do what he does best......We have to take it from him!"

A prime for prime matchup would have found MAB more willing to go on the offensive and not sit back trading jabs and wait for JMM to attack him.
More than likely it would have been MAB attacking, and JMM sitting back in the pocket in counter mode.

A fighter in counter mode gets hit alot less than when he's in attack mode.
So imo, a prime for prime matchup would have been that more decisive in favor of JMM, because he would not have had the burden of seeing to it that he clearly beat up on a legend in the eyes of the judges.

[Biggame]

We are of the same opinion that JMM has been the best featherweight all along.

There are those of the opinion that state that MAB being competitive with JMM was proof that he would beat JMM in a prime for prime matchup.
......of course, they turn a blind eye to the fact that JMM is not only older than MAB, but has lost some speed and quickness himself.

.......and then not only that. The fight would have played out differently in a prime for prime matchup.
For their actual fight, Nacho Beristein (JMM's trainer) noted that JMM would have to attack and take the title from the legend.
"We cannot afford and sit back and wait for MAB to come to us so that JMM can do what he does best......We have to take it from him!"

A prime for prime matchup would have found MAB more willing to go on the offensive and not sit back trading jabs and wait for JMM to attack him.
More than likely it would have been MAB attacking, and JMM sitting back in the pocket in counter mode.

A fighter in counter mode gets hit alot less than when he's in attack mode.
So imo, a prime for prime matchup would have been that more decisive in favor of JMM, because he would not have had the burden of seeing to it that he clearly beat up on a legend in the eyes of the judges.

Exactly:good

I think a prime JMM would best all three(PAC, MAB, EM) in decisive fashion w/the possiblity of stopping all of them. He was much faster, & sharper then, and he carried very good power! Thier styles would play right into his! i think when it's all said and done JMM will emerge at the top, and Pac or Guzman behind!

[Imperial1]

Exactly:good

I think a prime JMM would best all three(PAC, MAB, EM) in decisive fashion w/the possiblity of stopping all of them. He was much faster, & sharper then, and he carried very good power! Thier styles would play right into his! i think when it's all said and done JMM will emerge at the top, and Pac or Guzman behind!

A prime JMM? When was he at his prime during the John fight ?The Manny fight or the Barrera fight ??

[divac]

JMM won a close fight, very close. It really could've possibly gone to MAB by SD maybe as well, it was that close, but I gave it to JMM based on aggression mainly, seeing as both hurt each other and landed similar amounts. The scores were ludicrous.

Even the bias HBO punchstat tickers had the fight about even in connects.......

.......even if you take their word on connects......its clear as day that JMM lander the much harder and much cleaner, and certainly more telling blows.....

How somebody could say it could have gone either way when the connects are about the same, but the cleaner, harder, more telling blows clearly tilt in one favor, is beyond reasonable comprehension.:patsch

[psychopath]

It could "NOT" have gone either way . . . JMM won the fight by at least two rounds. :yep

[divac]

A prime JMM? When was he at his prime during the John fight ?The Manny fight or the Barrera fight ??

Just as I suspected. But you're not alone. You've clearly only watched JMM from Pac to present.....

A prime JMM was the fighter during the time Hamed was petitioning the WBC several times to bypass his mandatory, and during the time frame where neither MAB or Morales would have the audacity to even acknowleadge that a JMM existed......

MAB and Morales got to busy fighting eachother that neither would want to risk fighting and very possibly losing to JMM.

Like most, you missed JMM's prime friend!
None of the top fighters wanted to fight him, and even Freddie Roach was beside himself when Murad Muhamad (at the time Manny Pac's promoter) got Manny the fight with JMM!

In Freddie Roach's own words, "JMM is the best of the three, Manny should milk this before he tries his hand at JMM!"

The fans had no idea who JMM was, but boxing trainers around the world surely did!:yep

[Imperial1]

Just as I suspected. But you're not alone. You've clearly only watched JMM from Pac to present.....

A prime JMM was the fighter during the time Hamed was petitioning the WBC several times to bypass his mandatory, and during the time frame where neither MAB or Morales would have the audacity to even acknowleadge that a JMM existed......

MAB and Morales got to busy fighting eachother that neither would want to risk fighting and very possibly losing to JMM.

Like most, you missed JMM's prime friend!
None of the top fighters wanted to fight him, and even Freddie Roach was beside himself when Murad Muhamad (at the time Manny Pac's promoter) got Manny the fight with JMM!

In Freddie Roach's own words, "JMM is the best of the three, Manny should milk this before he tries his hand at JMM!"

The fans had no idea who JMM was, but boxing trainers around the world surely did!:yep

Oh I will admit I heard of JMM but had not seen enough of him until the Manny fight ..But how can your measure a fighters prime when no one wanted to fight him ? How could people have seen how far he has progressed ..Look at Manny he stared his career at Flyweight but most people feel he is in his prime right now ..Is that a fair question ?Let me know !

[divac]

:rofl :rofl :rofl Says the guy who thinks Whitaker/Chavez was actually a draw. I hope you know I didn't take that post seriously at all, given your history of judging fights.

Look at your own avatar Pea......
SI could'nt even find a clear connect in which to put in the front cover and call Whitaker the best.:lol: :lol: :lol:

If you look at that picture, Whitaker is already fully stretched and the punch has'nt gotten there yet.....much of how many of the rounds went with JC Chavez but were still called connects nonetheless!:lol:

Whitaker probably barely grazed McGirt there with the tip of the leather, and I have no doubt in my mind is was called a connect!:lol:

How effective of a connect is my question mark.:yep

Avatar connect effectiveness = 0:hey :deal :yep :lol:

[divac]

Tell me before PAC made JMM famous...what fight of JMM stood up to you and made you a fan???:think I mean a fight that made you say to yourself, damn this guy is really good!

I was fortunate enough to have been a boxing fan living in Los Angeles
when both JMM and MAB were young prospects fighting before their championship days.

MAB's fight with Kennedy McKinney is what put him on the map.
It was a life and death struggle that got him noticed

For JMM, he was too good to get in a punch for punch battle.
He stood in the pocket and counterpunched his foes handily, and then attacked them and stopped them once they had been softened.

The way JMM went about his business in the ring was sheer brilliance, and anybody who witnessed it and knew anything about the sport of boxing, knew it.
The drawback is that the other talents in the divisions he was in did'nt want to try their luck at him.

I cant point to one specific fight against a known fighter because none wanted to fight him.
Theres a couple of fights against who people on this very board predicted he might lose against.....he dominated and stopped a tough Robbie Peden who at the time was highly rated and once beaten.
Peden retired on his stool vomiting blood.....

Mantecas Medina is another name that comes to mind that Marquez completely embarrassed.
Medina had given everybody he had faced to that point including Hamed, tough fights, but Marquez clearly disected him, dominated him, and stopped him like not other champion had done before.
These are impressive victories that you say to yourself, I see why the others are avoiding him.:deal


The Pac and MAB fights are the fights that substantiate what I already thought of JMM well before most had ever heard of him......and are indicators of the reasoning behind prior champions like Hamed, MAB, and Morales never went out of their way to mention him.

Simply stated, JMM never had the promoter to look out for him and put him on the map.
When JMM signed with Bob Arum, he was unlucky in that Arum better interest was to get Morales the fights rather than JMM.

The story is too long to go on and on.....its already been told in this forum many times......those who want to educate themselves would do the homework and find that my points are true.
Those who dont want to believe it, for whatever reason (they may have grown and loved the MAB-Morales trilogy, and dont want to believe that there was actually a fighter in existence at the time that was better.....it seems like a logical reason to me, but the truth is that JMM was never let into the loop with a chance to prove himself.
His last two fights against great fighters, JMM has proven that he more than belongs!!!!

[4Rounder]

I watched the Medina fight, it was a beatdown. Medina had JMM in the ropes and missed entire combinations only to get countered silly in the process. That double left hook that dropped Medina was brilliant and that overhand right to the temple/ears is killer.

[divac]

I watched the Medina fight, it was a beatdown. Medina had JMM in the ropes and missed entire combinations only to get countered silly in the process. That double left hook that dropped Medina was brilliant and that overhand right to the temple/ears is killer.
:yep ....and Medina was a highworkrate, sound technical fighter.
Poor Mantecas was countered brutally and unmercifully!

[death_smirk]

:yep ....and Medina was a highworkrate, sound technical fighter.
Poor Mantecas was countered brutally and unmercifully! jmm was a real genius in counterpunching :good

[thewoo]

I think that JMM won and I don't even have that much of a problem with the margin of the scores. While the scoring was definatly much wider than the fight would indicate I do think that JMM was edging all the close rounds. You can't simply give a close round to MAB even if JMM edged it simply because you gave the last close round to JMM. Boxing is the one sport where a razor thin close fight can be scored identically to a blowout

[Biggame]

I was fortunate enough to have been a boxing fan living in Los Angeles
when both JMM and MAB were young prospects fighting before their championship days.

MAB's fight with Kennedy McKinney is what put him on the map.
It was a life and death struggle that got him noticed

For JMM, he was too good to get in a punch for punch battle.
He stood in the pocket and counterpunched his foes handily, and then attacked them and stopped them once they had been softened.

The way JMM went about his business in the ring was sheer brilliance, and anybody who witnessed it and knew anything about the sport of boxing, knew it.
The drawback is that the other talents in the divisions he was in did'nt want to try their luck at him.

I cant point to one specific fight against a known fighter because none wanted to fight him.
Theres a couple of fights against who people on this very board predicted he might lose against.....he dominated and stopped a tough Robbie Peden who at the time was highly rated and once beaten.
Peden retired on his stool vomiting blood.....

Mantecas Medina is another name that comes to mind that Marquez completely embarrassed.
Medina had given everybody he had faced to that point including Hamed, tough fights, but Marquez clearly disected him, dominated him, and stopped him like not other champion had done before.
These are impressive victories that you say to yourself, I see why the others are avoiding him.:deal


The Pac and MAB fights are the fights that substantiate what I already thought of JMM well before most had ever heard of him......and are indicators of the reasoning behind prior champions like Hamed, MAB, and Morales never went out of their way to mention him.

Simply stated, JMM never had the promoter to look out for him and put him on the map.
When JMM signed with Bob Arum, he was unlucky in that Arum better interest was to get Morales the fights rather than JMM.

The story is too long to go on and on.....its already been told in this forum many times......those who want to educate themselves would do the homework and find that my points are true.
Those who dont want to believe it, for whatever reason (they may have grown and loved the MAB-Morales trilogy, and dont want to believe that there was actually a fighter in existence at the time that was better.....it seems like a logical reason to me, but the truth is that JMM was never let into the loop with a chance to prove himself.
His last two fights against great fighters, JMM has proven that he more than belongs!!!!

Many don't know much about JMM, and in not knowing don't want to give him his proper due. He's fought 2 of the top 130lbers in the world at different times in his career, and has not lost to either which should alone state that the guy is very good! He was clearly avoided back then, and even now Pac doesn't seem to interested in fighting him again. His management and lack of good promoting is why he wasn't famous earlier.

[charlievint]

Exactly:good

I think a prime JMM would best all three(PAC, MAB, EM) in decisive fashion w/the possiblity of stopping all of them. He was much faster, & sharper then, and he carried very good power! Thier styles would play right into his! i think when it's all said and done JMM will emerge at the top, and Pac or Guzman behind!

Only one problem....he didn't beat MAB in decisive fashion and he didn't beat PAC at all....he was GIVEN the "W" by a incompetent judge who couldn't score a 3 KD round if his life depended on it. So when it's all said and done...PAC is crushing the 3 Great Mex Champs all by himself.

[charlievint]

It could "NOT" have gone either way . . . JMM won the fight by at least two rounds. :yep

LOL...Ah hell no! Maybe with a 5th of Jack daniels could you be that blind. THe fight was a close fight but At best JMM got a draw....but I think he lost.

[charlievint]

Many don't know much about JMM, and in not knowing don't want to give him his proper due. He's fought 2 of the top 130lbers in the world at different times in his career, and has not lost to either which should alone state that the guy is very good! He was clearly avoided back then, and even now Pac doesn't seem to interested in fighting him again. His management and lack of good promoting is why he wasn't famous earlier.

Pac isn't interested??? Shit...JMM avoided a rematch with PAC like PAC was KILLER VIRUS! And JMM SHOULD have wanted to rematch PAC right away b/c he knew he was GIVEN the fight by a mistake.

JMM is smart though and knew that he wouldn't get so lucky a second time around....so he never took a remtach. I agree that JMM wasn't famous early b/c of his trainer and lack of good promoting though...but PAC never avoided JMM...JMM was avoiding PAC. That's a fact.

[Rumsfeld]

I think that JMM won and I don't even have that much of a problem with the margin of the scores. While the scoring was definatly much wider than the fight would indicate I do think that JMM was edging all the close rounds. You can't simply give a close round to MAB even if JMM edged it simply because you gave the last close round to JMM. Boxing is the one sport where a razor thin close fight can be scored identically to a blowout

Outstanding post!

:good

[charlievint]

I think that JMM won and I don't even have that much of a problem with the margin of the scores. While the scoring was definatly much wider than the fight would indicate I do think that JMM was edging all the close rounds. You can't simply give a close round to MAB even if JMM edged it simply because you gave the last close round to JMM. Boxing is the one sport where a razor thin close fight can be scored identically to a blowout

The same can be said vise versa....You can't just give a close round to JMM just b/c you gave the last close round to MAB!

With that said.....the fight was CLOSE....close rounds given to JMM or MAB still would have indicated a back a forth battle if scored unbiasedly.

[LeedsLad]

MAB won a close fight IMO he should have had an extra point too because dumbass Nady never scored the KD, and should he have been deducted the point for the punch? Fair enough he was late, but he stepped back and stopped for a few seconds and Nady didnt make the call.

[Biggame]

Pac isn't interested??? Shit...JMM avoided a rematch with PAC like PAC was KILLER VIRUS! And JMM SHOULD have wanted to rematch PAC right away b/c he knew he was GIVEN the fight by a mistake.

JMM is smart though and knew that he wouldn't get so lucky a second time around....so he never took a remtach. I agree that JMM wasn't famous early b/c of his trainer and lack of good promoting though...but PAC never avoided JMM...JMM was avoiding PAC. That's a fact.

I didn't say avoided, I said "doesn't seem to interested" A rematch isn't JMM fault it's his management, and we all know that Nacho can be spiteful regardless of his fighters interest, or best interest! I have no doubt that JMM would have fought PAC again immediately!!

It's not a fact:nono

[Biggame]

Only one problem....he didn't beat MAB in decisive fashion and he didn't beat PAC at all....he was GIVEN the "W" by a incompetent judge who couldn't score a 3 KD round if his life depended on it. So when it's all said and done...PAC is crushing the 3 Great Mex Champs all by himself.

Look,...despite HBO's bias commentating, and MAB being the bigger name JMM won the fight. He was more effective, landed the cleaner, harder shots adjusted, and was more consistant!

In the PAC fight JMM whooped ass after that 1st rd. He really schooled Pac and Pac had no ans. I had and alot of ppl still had JMM winning despite the 1st rd Kd's. JMM damn swept the next 11rds.

They will fight again, and it will decide who is the top fighter. I think JMM is the best of the bunch and he will prove it. As the fight gets closer I get closer to making MAB v. PAC II 50/50. Basically it's where I stand at the moment.

MAB, nor PAC holds wins over JMM!!!:nono Now that's a fact!!

[divac]

I see reasoning has caught up to this poll......
The MAB fanaticals jumped out in a frenzy and gave MAB a sizeable lead very early in the poll.

Reason has now put JMM comfortable ahead in this poll.....

......:lol: but you know what, it goes to show you how polls can be. The so called boxing fan is very finicky and very forgetful......
A similar poll was conducted right after JMM and MAB had fought and JMM won that poll by a landslide......

Now that MAB is about to face Pac, and the JMM-MAB fight has long past, the margin has gotten smaller.....

I'd imagine if somehow MAB were to beat Manny Pac in their rematch, a poll conducted then on who won the JMM-MAB fight would result in this forum voting for MAB by a landslide.

How people forget!:lol: A win for MAB over Pac will erase the memories of a JMM win over MAB. History will rewrite the JMM-MAB fight and all of a sudden it will be MAB should have won that fight over JMM!
One result now and a flock wants to change the reality of a past result!:lol: :lol: :lol: :nut

[Imperial1]

MAB was robbed I don't think I could say that enough!

:bart

[thewoo]

The same can be said vise versa....You can't just give a close round to JMM just b/c you gave the last close round to MAB!

With that said.....the fight was CLOSE....close rounds given to JMM or MAB still would have indicated a back a forth battle if scored unbiasedly.

The same could be said vice versa IF MAB had been edging those close rounds. In this case I think that JMM was edging those close rounds so I don't have a problem with the wide scoring even though it was not indicative of how close the fight was.

MAB won a close fight IMO he should have had an extra point too because dumbass Nady never scored the KD, and should he have been deducted the point for the punch? Fair enough he was late, but he stepped back and stopped for a few seconds and Nady didnt make the call.


Here is my take on the KD scenario. JMM was decked by a legal shot. However MAB followed it up with an illegal blow prior to the count starting. Nady can not call a knockdown without starting a count (it's just not possible). Had he started the count and for some reason JMM was unable to beat it then he would have been allowing JMM to be counted out from an illegal blow.

I do still partially blame nady because he took way too long to step in and had he stepped in time the illegal blow would have never landed, that being said, JMM had dominated that round outside of the KD and I don't think that one flash KD would have been enough to get MAB a 10-8 round so we are talking about a 1 point swing in a fight that JMM won by 5 points on 2 judges cards and 9 points on the third so the KD was really not a factor in the fight.

[charlievint]

Look,...despite HBO's bias commentating, and MAB being the bigger name JMM won the fight. He was more effective, landed the cleaner, harder shots adjusted, and was more consistant!

In the PAC fight JMM whooped ass after that 1st rd. He really schooled Pac and Pac had no ans. I had and alot of ppl still had JMM winning despite the 1st rd Kd's. JMM damn swept the next 11rds.

They will fight again, and it will decide who is the top fighter. I think JMM is the best of the bunch and he will prove it. As the fight gets closer I get closer to making MAB v. PAC II 50/50. Basically it's where I stand at the moment.

MAB, nor PAC holds wins over JMM!!!:nono Now that's a fact!!

LOL...JMM didn't WHOOP Pac after the 1st round...He boxed very effectively and PAC won some mid rounds as well...The fact that JMM continued and was able to show a champions heart and do more than just survived gave many of HIS FANS an obsured view of what really happened in that fight.

This is one of boxings most ridicoulous myths...that JMM Won every round after the 1st!:rofl I mean....JMM LOST! He was GIVEN the fight by one incompetent judge. Nuff said.

JMM did look like he landed the more telling blows, but NOT BY MUCH and the EFFECTS overall wouldn't support this comment. JMM looked like he was worse for wear. But overall I think MAB landed more and was more consistant with controlling range and pace. It was a good close fight that I think MAB pulled off with out much question, but again...it could have be a draw.

JMM is a good fighter but it was proven that if MAB can stay competitive and some even going on to say he BEAT JMM.....I'm comfortable saying that PAC will KO Juan this time round as well as MAB.

[charlievint]

[quote=thewoo]The same could be said vice versa IF MAB had been edging those close rounds. In this case I think that JMM was edging those close rounds so I don't have a problem with the wide scoring even though it was not indicative of how close the fight was.
quote]

I'm on the other side or maybe somewhere right in the middle. I think most of the fight was back and forth. Some rounds MAB edged and some JMM edged...it seemed to me that when MAB had a good round...JMM came back to win the next and so on. But regardless of how you or I judged the fight....IT WAS CLOSE!! It's how you like your fight in the way you decide how to score.

[charlievint]

I didn't say avoided, I said "doesn't seem to interested" A rematch isn't JMM fault it's his management, and we all know that Nacho can be spiteful regardless of his fighters interest, or best interest! I have no doubt that JMM would have fought PAC again immediately!!

It's not a fact:nono

I agree that Nacho had a lot of say....but Nacho isn't JMM! JMM is a champion..he has his own mind and heart. His heart was NOT in to making an immediate rematch with PAC b/c if it was...there is NOTHING a trainer can do to stop a CHAMPION from doing what his heart tells him. He took the advice of Nacho but only b/c he didn't really want to fight PAC right away.

[Biggame]

LOL...JMM didn't WHOOP Pac after the 1st round...He boxed very effectively and PAC won some mid rounds as well...The fact that JMM continued and was able to show a champions heart and do more than just survived gave many of HIS FANS an obsured view of what really happened in that fight.

This is one of boxings most ridicoulous myths...that JMM Won every round after the 1st!:rofl I mean....JMM LOST! He was GIVEN the fight by one incompetent judge. Nuff said.

JMM did look like he landed the more telling blows, but NOT BY MUCH and the EFFECTS overall wouldn't support this comment. JMM looked like he was worse for wear. But overall I think MAB landed more and was more consistant with controlling range and pace. It was a good close fight that I think MAB pulled off with out much question, but again...it could have be a draw.

JMM is a good fighter but it was proven that if MAB can stay competitive and some even going on to say he BEAT JMM.....I'm comfortable saying that PAC will KO Juan this time round as well as MAB.

Looking worse for wear doesn't mean you got beat. JMM always looks rough after a fight and even in some dominant performances. It only takes a couple goods shots to damage a guys face like JMM's! Saying MAB controled the fight is just crazy. MAB never adjusted, while JMM did! Think MAB landed more is also obsurd. He had his moments, but the more telling cleaner, harder shots came from JMM no doubt about it!!

BTW...have you really seen the JMM V. PAC fight? JMM clearly won 90% of rds after rd 1. He had PAC looking like a bobble head at times. He controled it, was never hurt again, and the onle fighter to get in trouble was PAC. The fact that PAC KD JMM 3x's and wasn't able to keep that lead on atleast 2 of the scorecards let's you know that someone was getting dominated, and outboxed! If anything PAC and his fans should be embarrassed of that fact! It's nothing to write home about!!!

[Biggame]

I agree that Nacho had a lot of say....but Nacho isn't JMM! JMM is a champion..he has his own mind and heart. His heart was NOT in to making an immediate rematch with PAC b/c if it was...there is NOTHING a trainer can do to stop a CHAMPION from doing what his heart tells him. He took the advice of Nacho but only b/c he didn't really want to fight PAC right away.

Not true at all. Nacho basically controled everything. He's been w/both Marquez's since they were kids, and that's all they know. They're totally dedicated, and committed to him. Being w/GBP has help JMM alot. He now has more influence, and the backing to help him get it done. Before then it was all NACHO! GBP won't have him fighting in Indonesia for pennies.

Do you really think that JMM wanted that?

[charlievint]

Looking worse for wear doesn't mean you got beat. JMM always looks rough after a fight and even in some dominant performances. It only takes a couple goods shots to damage a guys face like JMM's! Saying MAB controled the fight is just crazy. MAB never adjusted, while JMM did! Think MAB landed more is also obsurd. He had his moments, but the more telling cleaner, harder shots came from JMM no doubt about it!!

BTW...have you really seen the JMM V. PAC fight? JMM clearly won 90% of rds after rd 1. He had PAC looking like a bobble head at times. He controled it, was never hurt again, and the onle fighter to get in trouble was PAC. The fact that PAC KD JMM 3x's and wasn't able to keep that lead on atleast 2 of the scorecards let's you know that someone was getting dominated, and outboxed! If anything PAC and his fans should be embarrassed of that fact! It's nothing to write home about!!!

I disagree...JMM did well but didn't do enough to beat MAB in my opinion. Again....it was a really close fight and I agree that you can't truly know who won a fight by their faces afterwards....but in some cases it does. This holds true in this case....IMO of course:D .

And yes...I have the JMM vs PAC fight on DVD. 90%?? Great statistic....But with statistics there has to be FACT behind them and 90% is not fact homeboy. JMM showed he was the superior BOXER by his preformance in that fight....BUT PAC is the better FIGHTER. Early on PAC was more one demensional and JMM was a VET who has seen all styles. He knew what to expect after round 1....but the funny thing was he still LOST Rounds after solving the PAC MAN puzzle...AND he lost the fight. Juan as I stated before was GIVEN the Draw which allowed him to hold on to his title. Not a way a champion wants to hold on to his titles.

Pac was never in any trouble with JMM...other than loosing rounds, but JMM lost rounds too...and JMM looked like a pretty DAMN fucked up Bobble head thanks to PAC, so it's business that still needs to be taken care of at this point.

There is nothing wrong with loosing to JMM or PAC...PAC did loose more rounds than he won in that fight but the DOMINATION of the 1st round allowed him to carry the "W" out of that ring.

LOL....Why would PAC and his fans have anything to be embarrased about??:lol: Sounds like you are reaching a bit for some extra validity to your comments. JMM is an OUTSTANDING boxer, a future HOFmer and Mex ATG. PAC gave hime HELL and won that fight...it was only the fact that one judge couldn't score a fight correclty that JMM got so lucky to keep his titles. That's a fact.

The only ONE person that should have been embarrased was Juan Manuel Marquez....He held on to his title after a BOGUS win that was clearly documented and released to the public. He had the chance to prove that he could have beaten PAC legitimatley time and time again but avoided the entire rematch with PAC like a whore avoids church. Other than that...there is no embarrasment. That kind of action or lack there of is nothing to hang your hat on.

[charlievint]

Not true at all. Nacho basically controled everything. He's been w/both Marquez's since they were kids, and that's all they know. They're totally dedicated, and committed to him. Being w/GBP has help JMM alot. He now has more influence, and the backing to help him get it done. Before then it was all NACHO! GBP won't have him fighting in Indonesia for pennies.

Do you really think that JMM wanted that?

See...I disagree....I know Nacho was their manager and had his say in A LOT of their careers...BUT do you honestly think if Nacho said "JMM don't fight for a championship" that Juan would have said "OK"?? Hell No! JMM would have Man'd up and said this is MY dream, MY career and this is what is most important. While he respected Nacho and his advice/direction Juan was and still is his own man. I know he didn't want to fight Chris John for pennies but his other option was to fight PAC and he didn't want that...NACHO didn't either but JMM can't blame Nacho for everything.

[Robbi]

Marquez won the fight by between 2 and 4 points clearly. Not making a case for Barrera getting a draw, and he certainly never won the fight.

[Biggame]

I disagree...JMM did well but didn't do enough to beat MAB in my opinion. Again....it was a really close fight and I agree that you can't truly know who won a fight by their faces afterwards....but in some cases it does. This holds true in this case....IMO of course:D .

And yes...I have the JMM vs PAC fight on DVD. 90%?? Great statistic....But with statistics there has to be FACT behind them and 90% is not fact homeboy. JMM showed he was the superior BOXER by his preformance in that fight....BUT PAC is the better FIGHTER. Early on PAC was more one demensional and JMM was a VET who has seen all styles. He knew what to expect after round 1....but the funny thing was he still LOST Rounds after solving the PAC MAN puzzle...AND he lost the fight. Juan as I stated before was GIVEN the Draw which allowed him to hold on to his title. Not a way a champion wants to hold on to his titles.

Pac was never in any trouble with JMM...other than loosing rounds, but JMM lost rounds too...and JMM looked like a pretty DAMN fucked up Bobble head thanks to PAC, so it's business that still needs to be taken care of at this point.

There is nothing wrong with loosing to JMM or PAC...PAC did loose more rounds than he won in that fight but the DOMINATION of the 1st round allowed him to carry the "W" out of that ring.

LOL....Why would PAC and his fans have anything to be embarrased about??:lol: Sounds like you are reaching a bit for some extra validity to your comments. JMM is an OUTSTANDING boxer, a future HOFmer and Mex ATG. PAC gave hime HELL and won that fight...it was only the fact that one judge couldn't score a fight correclty that JMM got so lucky to keep his titles. That's a fact.

The only ONE person that should have been embarrased was Juan Manuel Marquez....He held on to his title after a BOGUS win that was clearly documented and released to the public. He had the chance to prove that he could have beaten PAC legitimatley time and time again but avoided the entire rematch with PAC like a whore avoids church. Other than that...there is no embarrasment. That kind of action or lack there of is nothing to hang your hat on.

Well I respectfully disagree!

JMM clearly outboxed PAC from rd 1 on, and I had JMM winning the fight. You watch the fight again and tell how effective PAC was, and how effective JMM was. PAC's biggest moments came in the 1st rd. there was much more after that. Now embarassed is a strong word, but I know for sure if one of my fav's KD his opponent 3x's in the 1st rd and still ended up down on one card, and came up w/a draw I'd be shaking my head:-( Also I wouldn't call it luck that he kept his title. I'd call it will, determination, heart, and desire! He came off the canvas to keep his title, and it wasn't luck:nono It was a hell of a fight, and JMM and PAC both proved there worth, but I was still suprised that PAC couldn't finish the job! He couldn't finish because of the man in front of him!

Now as far as the avoiding thing. I think we'd go back in forth all day. I believe Nacho nixed the fight out of spite. It was a big mistake. I highly doubt that JMM didn't want a rematch, and I doubt that he would fight for 30k out of spite. He did excellent in that fight and could have emerged the winner. It wasn't a situation like PAC V. MAB. JMM was there, and he dominated at points totally outclassing PAC! Point is JMM nor Rafa are fighting anyone w/out Nacho there. I place the blame on Nacho. He's old and stubborn, and has his own ways!!

[Robbi]

Pacman won the 1st and 2nd rounds, clearly. But apart from that he got a boxing lesson.

[charlievint]

Well I respectfully disagree!

JMM clearly outboxed PAC from rd 1 on, and I had JMM winning the fight. You watch the fight again and tell how effective PAC was, and how effective JMM was. PAC's biggest moments came in the 1st rd. there was much more after that. Now embarassed is a strong word, but I know for sure if one of my fav's KD his opponent 3x's in the 1st rd and still ended up down on one card, and came up w/a draw I'd be shaking my head:-( Also I wouldn't call it luck that he kept his title. I'd call it will, determination, heart, and desire! He came off the canvas to keep his title, and it wasn't luck:nono It was a hell of a fight, and JMM and PAC both proved there worth, but I was still suprised that PAC couldn't finish the job! He couldn't finish because of the man in front of him!

Now as far as the avoiding thing. I think we'd go back in forth all day. I believe Nacho nixed the fight out of spite. It was a big mistake. I highly doubt that JMM didn't want a rematch, and I doubt that he would fight for 30k out of spite. He did excellent in that fight and could have emerged the winner. It wasn't a situation like PAC V. MAB. JMM was there, and he dominated at points totally outclassing PAC! Point is JMM nor Rafa are fighting anyone w/out Nacho there. I place the blame on Nacho. He's old and stubborn, and has his own ways!!

YOu know what..I will re-watch the fight...it was a good one and I'm interested how I will score the fight this time around. You make some good points but you know I can't agree with everything you said.

But you are right.....PAC wasn't able to finish the job and ALL credit needs to go to the man whom was across the ring with PAC that night. JMM is an OUTSTANDING boxer and he's a true champion. I just think PAC is the better FIGHTER overall....there are few that can match Juan's boxing skill-sets that's including MAB and EM. But I think PAC MAB AND EM have this fire that I never saw from JMM until he had to come off the canvas 3 times agianst PAC. So It's still questionable in my book.

Only way to settle this is a re-match. I'll try to check the fight out again over the weekend and offer my score card.

[charlievint]

The decison was close. JMM won in my eyes a close fight.

MAB still a greater fighter than De La Hoya. he won great clean fights against Morales and Hamed, something De La Hoya was never able to accomplish in his career:deal

LOL...where the hell did DLH come from?:huh :lol: I think MAB is a truely great fight as is DLH. Who is better is debatable but I'm going with the Golden boy.

[divac]

Pac fans hold on to the belief that JMM lost to Pac because he turned down a rematch with him.

Listen, both fighters deserved more than 100k more than what they originally got.
Nacho turned it down, because after the great fight they put up, he stalled and wanted to negotiate for more.
Nacho's opinion was that both Marquez and Pac deserved more than the 100k more than they were being offered.

The Pac fans chose to ignore this in order to make themselves feel better over the schooling exhibited by JMM after the knockdowns.
.....but the fact is that Bob Arum presented the 750k offer to JMM, expecting and hoping they would turn it down, so that then he could present an offer to Murad Muhamad that would look so much better in comparison to the JMM offer.

So thats what Bob Arum did. Arum being a business man, betrayed and used JMM and went to the Pac team and said, "listen, JMM does'nt want the fight, but I'll tell you what I'm going to do.....I'm going to give you the chance of a lifetime and offer you more money for a chance to fight a legend....Erik Morales!"
Its what Arum wanted all along. He wanted Morales in this mix because he had just lost to MAB in a close fight and wanted to re-establish his cash cow.
It was a sound business move on Bob Arum's part, but it meant kicking JMM to the curb and making him look like an ingrate who wanted too much money.

Its been established that Bob Arum is a convicted felon, slime of the earth, no better than Don King.
Why would boxing fans take that turds word over Nacho's is beyond me!:-(

[GARCIA]

Mab

[puga_ni_nana]

MAB faded on the last couple of rounds and allow JMM to take this close match.

[Robbi]

MAB faded on the last couple of rounds and allow JMM to take this close match.

Marquez won the last three rounds against Barrera. Watch the 12 round, and you'll see Marquez lands much more effective punches. It's a round that looks pretty close on first viewing, but with closer inspection Marquez takes the round pretty convincingly.

[thewoo]

The decison was close. JMM won in my eyes a close fight.

MAB still a greater fighter than De La Hoya. he won great clean fights against Morales and Hamed, something De La Hoya was never able to accomplish in his career:deal


:lol: I love how obsessed Oscar haters are with him. You can't participate in any discussion without bringing him up

[boxbox]

Pac fans hold on to the belief that JMM lost to Pac because he turned down a rematch with him.

Listen, both fighters deserved more than 100k more than what they originally got.
Nacho turned it down, because after the great fight they put up, he stalled and wanted to negotiate for more.
Nacho's opinion was that both Marquez and Pac deserved more than the 100k more than they were being offered.

The Pac fans chose to ignore this in order to make themselves feel better over the schooling exhibited by JMM after the knockdowns.
.....but the fact is that Bob Arum presented the 750k offer to JMM, expecting and hoping they would turn it down, so that then he could present an offer to Murad Muhamad that would look so much better in comparison to the JMM offer.

So thats what Bob Arum did. Arum being a business man, betrayed and used JMM and went to the Pac team and said, "listen, JMM does'nt want the fight, but I'll tell you what I'm going to do.....I'm going to give you the chance of a lifetime and offer you more money for a chance to fight a legend....Erik Morales!"
Its what Arum wanted all along. He wanted Morales in this mix because he had just lost to MAB in a close fight and wanted to re-establish his cash cow.
It was a sound business move on Bob Arum's part, but it meant kicking JMM to the curb and making him look like an ingrate who wanted too much money.

Its been established that Bob Arum is a convicted felon, slime of the earth, no better than Don King.
Why would boxing fans take that turds word over Nacho's is beyond me!:-(


that was inevitable, PAC and EM will fight sooner or later. but its really hard to believe your theory because how could Nacho turn that down when it could have been JMM's biggest check during that time? Both JMM and PAC were struggling for the limelight then and PAC would have accepted if not for the money but more on legacy. Unfortunately, PAC is thinking business nowadays. I dont blame him tho, now is the time to do business because now he's in the driver's seat and i really do think he deserves it.

[achillesthegreat]

A definitive poll - CLOSE fight but the JMM just gets the edge. Interesting.

Once MAB beats PAC they should do it again :)