Could Calzaghe have beaten the Ruiz that Jones beat?

[McGrain]

What do you think?

And have there been other HW champs since that Calzaghe could have beaten?

[DanePugilist]

We don't know how JC would carry himself at higher weight - he might even fail at LHW.

I don't think he would beat any CW or HW at all, that would be silly. He can't rough them up, even if they are as bad as Ruiz. Furthermore, he doesn't have RJJs power.

[Amsterdam]

No.

Could Armstrong have beaten any top classes above WW though? If we are comparing H2H.

[BewareofDawg]

If Calzaghe wants to try his luck at Heavy, I'm sure Wlad would be happy to oblige :yep

[brooklyn1550]

He certainly has the talent and ability to beat a fighter of Ruiz's caliber with ease when speaking P4P, but there are too many questions with this fight happening at HW

At heavyweight, how would Calzaghe handle the weight? How much speed would he have? How much stamina would he have? How would he handle a HWs punch? Could he out-do a natural HW on the inside?

I would pick Ruiz by clear decision since we haven't seen Joe at 175 let alone HW

[Amsterdam]

He certainly has the talent and ability to beat a fighter of Ruiz's caliber with ease when speaking P4P, but there are too many questions.

At heavyweight, how would Calzaghe handle the weight? How much speed would he have? How much stamina would he have? How would he handle a HWs punch? Could he out-do a natural HW on the inside?

I would pick Ruiz by decision since we haven't seen Joe at 175 let alone HW

Joe is a 168-175 operator only, he'd be awful at Cruiser even, much less HW. This has plenty to do with styles though.

Jones had a great style for beating slower, larger men, Calzaghe is in your face all night and wouldn't muscle a 240 pound man.

[McGrain]

Jones had a great style for beating slower, larger men, Calzaghe is in your face all night and wouldn't muscle a 240 pound man.

Are you saying that you think Calzaghe lacks adaptation skills? I agree with your basic analysis in terms of the styles, but if Calzaghe doesn't get hit to hard by the extra weight, isn't it plausible that he could embrace a new and winning strategy?

[Amsterdam]

Are you saying that you think Calzaghe lacks adaptation skills? I agree with your basic analysis in terms of the styles, but if Calzaghe doesn't get hit to hard by the extra weight, isn't it plausible that he could embrace a new and winning strategy?

Calzaghe fights in 2 ways. Boxing and swarming, most of the time he uses both in perfect combination and sometimes he just gets on top of a guy and unleashes a fury of punches all night.

He'd have to box a HW, but the HW size and reach would be too imposing.

Jones ran and exploded at openings, this works much better.

[McGrain]

Jones ran and exploded at openings, this works much better.

I agree that it would always be easier for Jones up at the higher weight, almost regardless of opposition. But I think you may be underestimating Calzaghe a little bit here.

If he could be reigned in I think he could do it. You would struggle to make Joe fight more slowly than he wanted to, but I thin he can be made to fight to fast, and that would be his big problem at heavyweight. He needs to keep punching to a minimum.

Get a talent like him over that hump and I think he could get a strap at heavy.

[Amsterdam]

I agree that it would always be easier for Jones up at the higher weight, almost regardless of opposition. But I think you may be underestimating Calzaghe a little bit here.

If he could be reigned in I think he could do it. You would struggle to make Joe fight more slowly than he wanted to, but I thin he can be made to fight to fast, and that would be his big problem at heavyweight. He needs to keep punching to a minimum.

Get a talent like him over that hump and I think he could get a strap at heavy.

I've decided, won't happen. Hand problems also, he'll be unloading full power shots on the slower HW's, which would be bombs at SMW or LHW but featherdusters at HW and he'd bust his hands.

JC simply cannot run like RJJ, he circles and stays on top of you.

[Jose FM]

I think Calzaghe could have beaten Ruiz being perfectly honest. He has a wee bit more height than Roy Jones Jr and has a natural body weight of around 190lbs that he strips down before each fight.

I think his endurance, speed and combination punching would make it tough for Ruiz - Ruiz liked to smother his opponents on the inside, Joe's flurry punching and fast footwork would really make that a struggle.

It'd be an interesting fight but I'd pick Joe to win that by UD.
Damn bro, so youre saying that Calzaghe would use all that speed, endurance and combinations would be too much for Ruiz at Heavy? You realize that at Heavy Calzaghe would A. Not be as fast, B. With that weight comes less endurance, specially if you have a fast paced style as Calzaghe does, C. Calzaghe doesnt have the skill that Jones had nor the power that Jones had.
Bottomline, Jones did something special that not many people can do, and Calzaghe is one of those people that cant go up to Heavy and beat a legitimate Heavy as Ruiz was in 2003.

P.s. I would advice Calzaghe lovers to realize that Calzaghe will never be on the same level as RJJ.:hi:

[Jose FM]

I've decided, won't happen. Hand problems also, he'll be unloading full power shots on the slower HW's, which would be bombs at SMW or LHW but featherdusters at HW and he'd bust his hands.

JC simply cannot run like RJJ, he circles and stays on top of you.
:good:good:good

[McGrain]

specially if you have a fast paced style as Calzaghe does,

I think this is the key point.

Bottomline, Jones did something special that not many people can do, and Calzaghe is one of those people that cant go up to Heavy and beat a legitimate Heavy as Ruiz was in 2003.

Quite a few people have done so in the history of the fight game, but with better defined weight classes and more financial rewards in all of them, we see it less and less.

[McGrain]

JC simply cannot run like RJJ, he circles and stays on top of you.


This is interesting; in the past you've assured me that Calzaghe could backpedal at speed for 12 rounds whilst under serious pressure (a la Robinson v LaMotta) - now you seem to be suggesting he'd be incapable of something a lot less difficult here.

[McGrain]

could pacquiao have beaten cotto?

No.

[MSTR]

What do you think?

And have there been other HW champs since that Calzaghe could have beaten?
No way in hell. He doesn't possess the defensive skills that jones has. Jones pot shotting was a key in this fight. Calzaghe's speed lies in his combinations, which woudl requrie him to trade with the bigger, stronger fighter.

[MSTR]

This is interesting; in the past you've assured me that Calzaghe could backpedal at speed for 12 rounds whilst under serious pressure (a la Robinson v LaMotta) - now you seem to be suggesting he'd be incapable of something a lot less difficult here.
There is an obvious difference avoiding Ruiz who is far bigger, then a smaller Jake La Motta. Not to mention that la Motta was very flat footed most times.

[McGrain]

There is an obvious difference avoiding Ruiz who is far bigger, then a smaller Jake La Motta. Not to mention that la Motta was very flat footed most times.

LaMotta would apply far, far, far more pressure in 12 rounds than Ruiz could in 30 to a fighter commited to a retreating fight.

[MSTR]

Calzaghe fights in 2 ways. Boxing and swarming, most of the time he uses both in perfect combination and sometimes he just gets on top of a guy and unleashes a fury of punches all night.

He'd have to box a HW, but the HW size and reach would be too imposing.

Jones ran and exploded at openings, this works much better.
Good posts here. Agree with your analysis.

[China_hand_Joe]

Calzaghe probably stands a chance against Ruiz even with a broken left hand.

He could simply use his world class jab, totally outspeed ruiz and shut him out on the cards. A stoppage would be unrealistic though.

Every time Ruiz went for a technical clinch, slap, slap, slap.

Ruiz is also slow, Calzaghe has excellent evasion at SMW, at HW he would be unhittable.

119-109 on the cards, one pity round scored for Ruiz where he gets less outclassed.

[McGrain]

Calzaghe probably stands a chance against Ruiz even with a broken left hand.

He could simply use his world class jab, totally outspeed ruiz and shut him out on the cards. A stoppage would be unrealistic though.

Every time Ruiz went for a technical clinch, slap, slap, slap.

Ruiz is also slow, Calzaghe has excellent evasion at SMW, at HW he would be unhittable.

119-109 on the cards, one pity round scored for Ruiz where he gets less outclassed.


In The Lord of the Rings the closer Frodo gets to Mount Doom the heavier the ring gets.

The closer we get to Calzaghe-Kessler the more insane you become.

[J_Roth]

I think the extra weight would play havoc on Joe's speed advantage. Still a Ud for Joe.

[Lance_Uppercut]

No way would Joe C beat Ruiz. Way too small to begin with. Not elusive enough. Jones won because he was able to strike and get out of danger fast. Joe C doesn't fight at all that way. Hell, Byron Mitchell dropped his ass. Ruiz knocks him out, possibly cold in under 6.

Some of you Calzaghe nuthuggers are too fuckin delusional...

[China_hand_Joe]

No way would Joe C beat Ruiz. Way too small to begin with. Not elusive enough. Jones won because he was able to strike and get out of danger fast. Joe C doesn't fight at all that way. Hell, Byron Mitchell dropped his ass. Ruiz knocks him out, possibly cold in under 6.

Some of you Calzaghe nuthuggers are too fuckin delusional...

Ruiz couldn't KO Jones, what chance has he got against the iron chinned Calzaghe?

[McGrain]

Ruiz couldn't KO Jones, what chance has he got against the iron chinned Calzaghe?


If Calzaghe doesn't suddenly get stuped he should be able to avoid the KO.

[Lance_Uppercut]

Ruiz couldn't KO Jones, what chance has he got against the iron chinned Calzaghe?

Calzaghe's not as hard to hit as Jones Jr. is. Nor is he the mover Jones is.

And Joe's only iron chinned vs. 168ers....

[Lance_Uppercut]

If Calzaghe doesn't suddenly get stuped he should be able to avoid the KO.
He could if he decided to run the entire fight. But that's not Joe's style. He gets cornered, then coldcocked by Ruiz sad to say.

There's a reason so few LtHW's, let alone CW's have any success at HW.

[Zakman]

Jeez, it's not like Ruiz has a particularly great track record against fighters moving up from lower weight classes! :lol:

Calzaghe superior boxing ability should be enough for him to win this fight. Ruiz was as limited as they come. Without Don King, he would never have even sniffed a HW belt.

[Lance_Uppercut]

Jeez, it's not like Ruiz has a particularly great track record against fighters moving up from lower weight classes! :lol:

Calzaghe superior boxing ability should be enough for him to win this fight. Ruiz was as limited as they come. Without Don King, he would never have even sniffed a HW belt.
It's not just a matter of skill. Joe's not defesive like Jones or Toney were. They were able to avoid any real clean punches. And if Byron Mitchell can drop Joe, what makes you think Ruiz couldn't?

BTW, doesn't that make Joe China chinned Zak? Being dropped by a past prime Byron Mitchell? :hey

[China_hand_Joe]

Calzaghe's not as hard to hit as Jones Jr. is. Nor is he the mover Jones is.

And Joe's only iron chinned vs. 168ers....

For all you know Calzaghe might be more comfortable moving up in weight. He might be a natural LHW. Imagine how good that makes him, when you consider there is a possibility, being weight drained at 168 means he is like 20% better than we think.

[Lance_Uppercut]

For all you know Calzaghe might be more comfortable moving up in weight. He might be a natural LHW. Imagine how good that makes him, when you consider there is a possibility, being weight drained at 168 means he is like 20% better than we think.

For all you know, he might not. He might not even beat top LtHW's or CW's let alone a HW.

Personally, I think he max's out at 175. But I wonder if he'll ever fight there before it's too late.

Win or lose vs. Kessler, it's time to find out IMHO.

[psychopath]

What do you think?

And have there been other HW champs since that Calzaghe could have beaten?

Nah :-( of course not. Can you not see the difference between the Roy Jones that beat Ruiz . . . and Calzaghe? Common buddy . . . it's pretty obvious.

Ruiz didn't looked bad because he is such a bad fighter or out of shape . . . Ruiz looked bad because RJ made him looked bad. :D

[MSTR]

Ruiz could actually punch earlier in his career. Most people forget that. He definitely hits hard enough to KO a natural SMW if he connects.

[Lance_Uppercut]

We're not saying that Joe can compete at HW.

We're saying Joe can compete against Ruiz

His style suits Ruiz's style quite nicely and Ruiz doesn't have over the top power or over the top size in his favour.
What do you mean by styles? Explain.

The way I see it, Joe doesn't have the size to absorb a clean shot from Ruiz, nor does he have the defensive capabilities to avoid flush shots for 12 rounds. As elusive as JOnes is, Ruiz STILL was able to land a clean punch every so often.

And Ruiz, while not having Top power, is still a good size HW. Did Byron Mitchell have Top HW power? No he didn't. But he caught Joe while they were trading. Ruiz is more then capable of doing so. And would probably bully Joe around the ring. Fighting 168er is one thing. Fighting a guy who would easily outweigh you by 50 pounds is another. When Ruiz holds Joe, Joe will expunge A LOT of energy trying to keep him off. No way can Joe win here.

[MSTR]

What do you mean by styles? Explain.

The way I see it, Joe doesn't have the size to absorb a clean shot from Ruiz, nor does he have the defensive capabilities to avoid flush shots for 12 rounds. As elusive as JOnes is, Ruiz STILL was able to land a clean punch every so often.

And Ruiz, while not having Top power, is still a good size HW. Did Byron Mitchell have Top HW power? No he didn't. But he caught Joe while they were trading. Ruiz is more then capable of doing so. And would probably bully Joe around the ring. Fighting 168er is one thing. Fighting a guy who would easily outweigh you by 50 pounds is another. When Ruiz holds Joe, Joe will expunge A LOT of energy trying to keep him off. No way can Joe win here.
Totally agree. joe definitely doesn't have the style to pull it off. Ruiz would tie him up with ease in close.

[Amsterdam]

This is interesting; in the past you've assured me that Calzaghe could backpedal at speed for 12 rounds whilst under serious pressure (a la Robinson v LaMotta) - now you seem to be suggesting he'd be incapable of something a lot less difficult here.

He excells against pressure, this is not even up for discussion. He'd however be so undersized against Ruiz that it's not logical to say that his style would be effective for very long against someone with such a tremendous size advantage.

He can backpedal for survival and still win rounds close, but against MW-SMW-LHW's, not fully blown HW's.

We're talking about getting a win here?

[Amsterdam]

LaMotta would apply far, far, far more pressure in 12 rounds than Ruiz could in 30 to a fighter commited to a retreating fight.

Yes and LaMotta would get ripped with combination after combination in the process, which would have more of an effect than on the 240 pound Ruiz I am afraid.

[TheGreat]

We're not saying that Joe can compete at HW.

We're saying Joe can compete against Ruiz

His style suits Ruiz's style quite nicely and Ruiz doesn't have over the top power or over the top size in his favour.

Ruiz is nothing special BUT he is a legit HW as he has beat and dropped Holy, beat and hurt Rahman, beat Golota, beat and hurt Johnson, and stopped Oqeundo when he was a contender, all named are/were top HW contenders he also should of beat Valeuv, and held his own against Chageav, i think he would not only beat Calzaghe but he would stop him as Calzaghe ain't as good as Jones or as big and skilled as Toney his style is taylor made for Ruiz IMO.

[Rock0052]

Unfortunately, the inside fighting Joe's so good at would probably be nullified by the Hugmaster.

[McGrain]

He excells against pressure, this is not even up for discussion. He'd however be so undersized against Ruiz that it's not logical to say that his style would be effective for very long against someone with such a tremendous size advantage.

He can backpedal for survival and still win rounds close, but against MW-SMW-LHW's, not fully blown HW's.

We're talking about getting a win here?


Of course. I'm not disputing any of what's written here {neccesarily}. What i'm interested in is your assertion that Calzaghe can't change his plan - that's new.

[China_hand_Joe]

And Ruiz, while not having Top power, is still a good size HW. Did Byron Mitchell have Top HW power? No he didn't. But he caught Joe while they were trading. Ruiz is more then capable of doing so. And would probably bully Joe around the ring. Fighting 168er is one thing. Fighting a guy who would easily outweigh you by 50 pounds is another. When Ruiz holds Joe, Joe will expunge A LOT of energy trying to keep him off. No way can Joe win here.

If Toney could do it, then so could Calzaghe.

Byron Mitchell landed a flush punch to the temple. He is considered a tremendous puncher, and the punch only scored a flash knockdown. Calzaghe is allowed to be hit a few times over 43 fights.

If Toney could survive the hugging then so can the lighter footed Calzaghe.

I'm not sure you realize just how good Calzaghe is. One of the best defensive fighters, one of the most evasive fighters of the last decade.

Calzaghe would look how Willie Pep looked against 5-12-0 fighters against Ruiz's heavyweight speed.

[McGrain]

If Toney could survive the hugging then so can the lighter footed Calzaghe.


This is def. a key.

Why not ouline, briefly, the strategy you would like to see Joe utilise in this fight?

[China_hand_Joe]

This is def. a key.

Why not ouline, briefly, the strategy you would like to see Joe utilise in this fight?

First half of the fight -

-go into fight at a relatively light weight, to maintain assets (especially speed and fitness)

-try to box at range, adopt a very defensive attitude

- look to use speed to beat Ruiz to to jab

- move in and out throwing one or two punches at a time rather than bunches, so as to conserve energy (vital to win the fight) lots of head and body movement, use the SMW reflexes

- use footwork to avoid the clinches where possible when not just hit him on the way in (and accept he is going to get you on ocassions and it is going to be tiring)


Once a sufficient lead is built up, go into survival mode, to conserve energy (fighting a heavyweight would be tiring - especially when making the effort to taking round) and to see out the fight. This would neutralize Ruiz's 'wear him down plan', leaving Ruiz needing a KO.

(Survival mode might be something along the lines of, on your toes, guard up, on your bike, throwing only to discourage the opponent)

[McGrain]

I like it.

I would add; take the last minute of in any round he thinks he's ahead.

Take a knee if he's being leaned on, assuming he can make it look reasonable. Might even hit Ruiz for a point (think Lewis-Tyson).

You think he could do this though? It certainly runs contrary to his nature.

[China_hand_Joe]

I like it.

I would add; take the last minute of in any round he thinks he's ahead.

Take a knee if he's being leaned on, assuming he can make it look reasonable. Might even hit Ruiz for a point (think Lewis-Tyson).

You think he could do this though? It certainly runs contrary to his nature.

Enzo would make sure he boxed smart.

[yesihavearm]

Calzahge IS a natural light-heavyweight, he's said this himself many occasions. Yeah I think he could beat Ruiz.

[Max Molyneux]

Calzaghe probably stands a chance against Ruiz even with a broken left hand.

He could simply use his world class jab, totally outspeed ruiz and shut him out on the cards. A stoppage would be unrealistic though.

Every time Ruiz went for a technical clinch, slap, slap, slap.

Ruiz is also slow, Calzaghe has excellent evasion at SMW, at HW he would be unhittable.

119-109 on the cards, one pity round scored for Ruiz where he gets less outclassed.

I was going to ask you this question but this thread was started.

[lefthook31]

Calzahge would get stopped by Ruiz. Hes not a big enough puncher to hold Ruiz off, and he doesnt even come close to having the speed of Jones or the slickness of Toney, plus Toney has always been a bigger guy fighting in a middleweight body. Joe tends to slap his punches, so Ruiz would be too strong for him.

[Lance_Uppercut]

If Toney could do it, then so could Calzaghe.
No, not really. For someone who thinks they are some intellect on the board, you should use some of that. Either that or you are yet to see Toney v. Ruiz. Toney used his defense while in the pocket to avoid anything flush. Are you suggesting Joe would do the same? I thought you were a fan of his? You really should watch Joe fight sometime.

Byron Mitchell landed a flush punch to the temple. He is considered a tremendous puncher, and the punch only scored a flash knockdown. Calzaghe is allowed to be hit a few times over 43 fights.
Absolutley, and Byron Mitchell is NOT as heavy a hitter at Ruiz.


If Toney could survive the hugging then so can the lighter footed Calzaghe.
See my top post.


I'm not sure you realize just how good Calzaghe is. One of the best defensive fighters, one of the most evasive fighters of the last decade.
You overrate your hero, and your examples leads me to believe you don't realy watch much boxing.

Calzaghe would look how Willie Pep looked against 5-12-0 fighters against Ruiz's heavyweight speed.
Stay away from boxrec child....:roll:

[A-50]

There are several fighters that could have beat Ruiz. The guy lost to 2 former middleweights for christ sake! I have no doubt a bulked up Calzaghe would have beat Ruiz. Why do you think Roy Jones handpicked Ruiz? That should tell you something right there when Glass Jaw Roy Jones handpicks you for a fight. :lol:

[lefthook31]

There are several fighters that could have beat Ruiz. The guy lost to 2 former middleweights for christ sake! I have no doubt a bulked up Calzaghe would have beat Ruiz. Why do you think Roy Jones handpicked Ruiz? That should tell you something right there when Glass Jaw Roy Jones handpicks you for a fight. :lol:

Two great former middleweights. Can you imagine the joe Calzahge that fought Charles Brewer fighting Ruiz?? He would get killed. Calzahge still has a ways to go until we annoit him a giant killer.

[China_hand_Joe]

No, not really. For someone who thinks they are some intellect on the board, you should use some of that. Either that or you are yet to see Toney v. Ruiz. Toney used his defense while in the pocket to avoid anything flush. Are you suggesting Joe would do the same? I thought you were a fan of his? You really should watch Joe fight sometime.


Absolutley, and Byron Mitchell is NOT as heavy a hitter at Ruiz.



See my top post.



You overrate your hero, and your examples leads me to believe you don't realy watch much boxing.


Stay away from boxrec child....:roll: A bulked up Calzaghe would have a heavyweight chin, you are dreaming if you think Ruiz will catch up to and KO him.

I can't stand you delusional Americans who think their fighters can beat any European, despite obvious handicaps such as speed and skill. It is just as well there are a few level headed fans like myself about to set you straight.

The only question mark is about Calzaghe's hands holding up taking into account the vicious power he would possess once bulked up.

[Amsterdam]

Of course. I'm not disputing any of what's written here {neccesarily}. What i'm interested in is your assertion that Calzaghe can't change his plan - that's new.

He can change his plan, but again, against fighters his size that don't pose the type of KO threat that a HW does. HW's produce more KO threat than the most vicious LHW hitter.

[lefthook31]

A bulked up Calzaghe would have a heavyweight chin, you are dreaming if you think Ruiz will catch up to and KO him.

I can't stand you delusional Americans who think their fighters can beat any European, despite obvious handicaps such as speed and skill. It is just as well there are a few level headed fans like myself about to set you straight.

The only question mark is about Calzaghe's hands holding up taking into account the vicious power he would possess once bulked up.
The only delusional fan is you, especially thinking his power be so vicious if he went up to heavy.:lol: The reason you're so delusional is because you havent seen Joe face anyone except a one dimensional guy with one punch in his aresenal in Lacy. Besides that his resume is built on has beens and non greats. If you dont think Ruiz lying on Calzahge would tire him out your crazy, and he would have to deal with that. Joe isnt even close to the speed and slickness of Toney or Jones. Jones beat him with his speed and Toney outslicked him. Calzhage needs to fight some real fighters at 68 before we can even guess what he would do at heavy.:lol:
Im not hating, I like Calzahge and I think hes a good fighter, but comparing him to anything remotely close to Toney and Jones is just laughable at this point, he hasnt fought anyone yet. Blame it on ****** he had plenty of chances.

[China_hand_Joe]

Im not hating, I like Calzahge and I think hes a good fighter, but comparing him to anything remotely close to Toney and Jones is just laughable at this point, he hasnt fought anyone yet. Blame it on ****** he had plenty of chances.

Calzaghe will be remembered long after that innate loser of a boxer, the resumeless James Toney has retired.

If Toney had fought Calzaghe around 2000, Toney would just be another Byron Mitchell.

Never before has man so easy to outbox recieved so much credit.

[lefthook31]

Calzaghe will be remembered long after that innate loser of a boxer, the resumeless James Toney has retired.

If Toney had fought Calzaghe around 2000, Toney would just be another Byron Mitchell.

Never before has man so easy to outbox recieved so much credit.

Now I know your delusional. Take a look at Toneys resume and then look at Calzahges list of no namers and has beens. By far Joe's biggest fight was against an unproven one dimensional fighter in Lacy, you cant be that blind? Whose easy to outbox, Toney? Put the crack pipe down buddy.

[kg0208]

Calzaghe will be remembered long after that innate loser of a boxer, the resumeless James Toney has retired.

If Toney had fought Calzaghe around 2000, Toney would just be another Byron Mitchell.

Never before has man so easy to outbox recieved so much credit.

Toney....resumeless?

Having McCallum and Nunn on his resume alone trumps anything Calzaghe has done.

[Amsterdam]

Toney....resumeless?

Having McCallum and Nunn on his resume alone trumps anything Calzaghe has done.

Not with Kessler added in.

[Amsterdam]

Man get outta' here with that shit:lol:

Kessler doesn't mean as much as a Nunn type of fighter?

[China_hand_Joe]

Now I know your delusional. Take a look at Toneys resume and then look at Calzahges list of no namers and has beens. By far Joe's biggest fight was against an unproven one dimensional fighter in Lacy, you cant be that blind? Whose easy to outbox, Toney? Put the crack pipe down buddy.

If that version of Nunn could do it, Calzaghe would embarrass him. Toney would have been 50/50 with the likes of Eubank and the great David Starie, whereas Calzaghe tended to shut them out. How old was McCallum anyway?

I kind of felt sad for Toney vs Roy Jones. Being exposes as the hack he was, along with the entire American boxing media, who claimed his brilliance on the basis of beating other America fighters.

He was a moderately sucessful cruiserweight, nothing more.

Resume wise:

Jones
Calzaghe
Griffin
Toney

Toney simply is a never was.

[China_hand_Joe]

Kessler is gonna beat the grease outta' Enzo's gelding of a son..

The guy has BABY NUTS..

NOBODY would dump a REAL title and KEEP A FAKE ONE but a castrated she-male..

THE MAN IS BAD FOR BOXING..

He has seen MANY top fighters come and didn't do shit about it..

Now he's FINALLY fighting Kessler

WELL WHOOPTY FUCKIN DOO

Mekkel will destroy this slapper and rid the boxing world of that soft-shelled she-male once and for all:rofl :rofl :rofl :deal

You didn't answer the question pal.

[kg0208]

Not with Kessler added in.

Kessler is not equal to Nunn or McCallum. He is closer to Reggie Johnson in status.

[Amsterdam]

Kessler is not equal to Nunn or McCallum. He is closer to Reggie Johnson in status.

Ludicrous.

[kg0208]

Kessler doesn't mean as much as a Nunn type of fighter?

No, he doesn't. Nunn is a 2 division champion who was rated in the top 5 p4p. Kessler hasn't done these things.

[Amsterdam]

No, he doesn't. Nunn is a 2 division champion who was rated in the top 5 p4p. Kessler hasn't done these things.

Nunn's resume is not an impressive one in the least bit. I don't care how he was rated, Taylor was rated top 5 P4P prior to the Ouma and Spinks bouts.

[kg0208]

Ludicrous.

Nope. Nunn accomplishmed more than Kessler.

And McCallum? McCallum beat Collins, Graham, Watson, etc...

He is a 3 weight champion.

[China_hand_Joe]

No, he doesn't. Nunn is a 2 division champion who was rated in the top 5 p4p. Kessler hasn't done these things.

That is because he is American, if Kessler was a yank and he was lucky enough not to have to fight Calzaghe, he would be top 5.

As it stands, when Calzaghe humiliates him, he becomes a nobody.

[China_hand_Joe]

Nope. Nunn accomplishmed more than Kessler.

And McCallum? McCallum beat Collins, Graham, Watson, etc...

He is a 3 weight champion.

Nunn also lost to some dreadful fighters and never beat any one better than Richie Woodhall.

[kg0208]

Nunn's resume is not an impressive one in the least bit. I don't care how he was rated, Taylor was rated top 5 P4P prior to the Ouma and Spinks bouts.

Sure its not. Kalambay was a scrub right? He had only beaten McCallum, Barkley and Graham right? Tate and Barkley were bums too.

I don't care if you don't care where they rate. Nunn was a superb fighter. Convenience is not part of this discussion. You can disregard what a fighter has done whenever you choose. I don't.

Kessler has beaten WHOM again?

[kg0208]

Nunn also lost to some dreadful fighters and never beat any one better than Richie Woodhall.

Kalambay was far better than Woodhall.

Nunn lost to some pretty good fighters in Toney and Liles. Little I have never seen.

[kg0208]

That is because he is American, if Kessler was a yank and he was lucky enough not to have to fight Calzaghe, he would be top 5.

As it stands, when Calzaghe humiliates him, he becomes a nobody.

Blah blah....not buying into your American bias crap. You are just as biased over in the UK, so get over it.

[Amsterdam]

Sure its not. Kalambay was a scrub right? He had only beaten McCallum, Barkley and Graham right? Tate and Barkley were bums too.

I don't care if you don't care where they rate. Nunn was a superb fighter. Convenience is not part of this discussion. You can disregard what a fighter has done whenever you choose. I don't.

Kessler has beaten WHOM again?

It's not always, whom, but 'how'. Do you really want to be objective? Because rating an even marginally close win over someone like Iran Barkley as a resume point is quite extreme.

Kessler has already wiped through the Barkley level guys.

[kg0208]

It's not always, whom, but 'how'. Do you really want to be objective? Because rating an even marginally close win over someone like Iran Barkley as a resume point is quite extreme.

Kessler has already wiped through the Barkley level guys.
Lol...Barkley level guys.

Sorry, that simply is a joke.

It is WHOM. Now JUST how. Styles and such make things like that too subjective. Sorry. Nunn in his prime is a better fighter than Kessler has shown so far. Trying to downplay that so that Kessler looks better so that Calzaghe gets more recognition is transparent. Kessler has not accomplished as much as Nunn....and ESPECIALLY McCallum. It's ridiculous that we are having this conversation.

[Amsterdam]

Lol...Barkley level guys.

Sorry, that simply is a joke.

It is WHOM. Now JUST how. Styles and such make things like that too subjective. Sorry. Nunn in his prime is a better fighter than Kessler has shown so far. Trying to downplay that so that Kessler looks better so that Calzaghe gets more recognition is transparent. Kessler has not accomplished as much as Nunn....and ESPECIALLY McCallum. It's ridiculous that we are having this conversation.

Yes, Barkley level guys. I have never claimed he sports the resume of Nunn or McCallum.

You seem to be missing the trend, it's not about bringing Calzaghe more credit, it's about bringing every underrated fighter more credit, especially guys from the lower weight classes. For example, maybe you haven't seen me defending Roy Jones against absurdity? It's because Jones is underrated.

Some people have even stated that Michael Nunn has a shot at Roy Jones peak/peak, this is insanity, it topples CHJ's entire run.

Barkley was a B- level fighter. Notice that I haven't been talking about McCallum, I've been talking about Nunn, who I feel is vastly overrated.

[A-50]

Who did Ruiz ever KO at Heavyweight that was worth a crap? NOBODY. He has no power.

[David B]

Calzaghe beats Ruiz,Ibragimov,Maskaev and Chagaev.
The heavyweight division is in an all-time low for now and please don't give RJJ credit for beating Ruiz,James Toney has defeates Ruiz easily.
Wladimir is the only heavy who would be favoured against Joe,let's not forget Joe is naturally 190 who strips down to 168.

[kg0208]

Yes, Barkley level guys. I have never claimed he sports the resume of Nunn or McCallum.

You seem to be missing the trend, it's not about bringing Calzaghe more credit, it's about bringing every underrated fighter more credit, especially guys from the lower weight classes. For example, maybe you haven't seen me defending Roy Jones against absurdity? It's because Jones is underrated.

Some people have even stated that Michael Nunn has a shot at Roy Jones peak/peak, this is insanity, it topples CHJ's entire run.

Barkley was a B- level fighter. Notice that I haven't been talking about McCallum, I've been talking about Nunn, who I feel is vastly overrated.

Whether or not Nunn is overrated or not isn't relevant. What is relevant is how good he was.

We are talking about Toney and Calzaghe's resume. They are not comparable. Nunn and McCallum alone make that so. Adding Kessler will not raise Calzaghe resume to that level. Toney also has Jirov.

And no, Barkley was not a B- level fighter. I have seen you defending and attacking alot of things lately. But you are still doing it in the same manner, and I am not going to buy into that method. You are sporting the "Because I said so" attitude, and that isn't enough for me. It proves nothing.

[kg0208]

Calzaghe beats Ruiz,Ibragimov,Maskaev and Chagaev.
The heavyweight division is in an all-time low for now and please don't give RJJ credit for beating Ruiz,James Toney has defeates Ruiz easily.
Wladimir is the only heavy who would be favoured against Joe,let's not forget Joe is naturally 190 who strips down to 168.


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Amsterdam]

Whether or not Nunn is overrated or not isn't relevant. What is relevant is how good he was.

We are talking about Toney and Calzaghe's resume. They are not comparable. Nunn and McCallum alone make that so. Adding Kessler will not raise Calzaghe resume to that level. Toney also has Jirov.

And no, Barkley was not a B- level fighter. I have seen you defending and attacking alot of things lately. But you are still doing it in the same manner, and I am not going to buy into that method. You are sporting the "Because I said so" attitude, and that isn't enough for me. It proves nothing.

Can I still be in RJJ's fanclub?

And I was arguing that Calzaghe's entire resume with Kessler added is better than just Nunn and McCallum alone, not counting Toney's other wins such as Jirov. You have asserted that Nunn and McCallum beat an entire record with Kessler added.

[China_hand_Joe]

Wladimir is the only heavy who would be favoured against Joe

This would be true were Calzaghe younger.

[China_hand_Joe]

Toney is two levels below Calzaghe and Jones and one level below Hopkins and Kessler.

[David B]

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

let me guess,you're from the usa right?:D
if i would replace Calzaghe by Jones you would agree with me:yep

[MJRJJ23]

This whole thread is laughable

[kg0208]

let me guess,you're from the usa right?:D
if i would replace Calzaghe by Jones you would agree with me:yep
Let me guess, you're from Europe right?

No, I wouldn't agree with you. What you just said was crap.

Don't give Jones credit for beating Ruiz? That's moronic.

And if Calzaghe beat Ruiz, I would give him credit. ANYONE below CW moving up to beat a HW gets credit these days when the average HW is 230.

[kg0208]

Can I still be in RJJ's fanclub?

And I was arguing that Calzaghe's entire resume with Kessler added is better than just Nunn and McCallum alone, not counting Toney's other wins such as Jirov. You have asserted that Nunn and McCallum beat an entire record with Kessler added.

And I was arguing that calling Toney resumeless is ludicrous. Adding Kessler is not going to equal Toney's resume. That is what I am saying.

[yesihavearm]

Beating Eubank is greater than beating Nunn or Mc.

[kg0208]

Beating Eubank is greater than beating Nunn or Mc.

Eubank is not greater than Mike McCallum. In any regard or in any way. Not by resume, not by accomplishments.

[China_hand_Joe]

What age was Mike when Toney beat him?

[kg0208]

What age was Mike when Toney beat him?

What stage in his career is a more valid question. You are smart China, but I am not falling for that.

You are going to say that Eubank was younger. But McCallum was good through his mid 30's, much like Hopkins was. (Hopkins isn't really that good now, though many think he is).

[China_hand_Joe]

What stage in his career is a more valid question. You are smart China, but I am not falling for that.

You are going to say that Eubank was younger. But McCallum was good through his mid 30's, much like Hopkins was. (Hopkins isn't really that good now, though many think he is).

There isn't much in it, however you look at it though.

Eubanks wasn't totally awful moving up in in weight after Calzaghe demonstrated the true meaning of talent to him.

Hopkins performance losing in the Jones fight was better than any of his showings in the past 5 years perhaps. Most Americans are insane when it comes to past prime Hopkins.

[kg0208]

There isn't much in it, however you look at it though.

Eubanks wasn't totally awful moving up in in weight after Calzaghe demonstrated the true meaning of talent to him.

Hopkins performance losing in the Jones fight was better than any of his showings in the past 5 years perhaps. Most Americans are insane when it comes to past prime Hopkins.

But Eubank was never as good as McCallum. Don't get me wrong, Eubank is a great fighter. But IMO he is borderline as an ATG, and McCallum clearly is.

Hopkins prime ended in 99-00 or so. He was not in his prime when he beat Trinidad. It has nothing to do with being American. It has to do with when he got recognition from beating a NON American.

You guys and your American bias theory has only caused you to be extreme on the other side.

[China_hand_Joe]

Hopkins prime ended in 99-00 or so. He was not in his prime when he beat Trinidad. It has nothing to do with being American. It has to do with when he got recognition from beating a NON American.



It is fighters whom are promoted by Americans, who pull strings in the American media. John Duddy for example is more sucessful than his talents merit.

Americans have a horrible habit of leaving older fighters hanging in P4P lists too long. This will apply to europeans like Joe Calzaghe even, if he beats Kessler.

Nothing as extreme as the

[lefthook31]

If that version of Nunn could do it, Calzaghe would embarrass him. Toney would have been 50/50 with the likes of Eubank and the great David Starie, whereas Calzaghe tended to shut them out. How old was McCallum anyway?

I kind of felt sad for Toney vs Roy Jones. Being exposes as the hack he was, along with the entire American boxing media, who claimed his brilliance on the basis of beating other America fighters.

He was a moderately sucessful cruiserweight, nothing more.

Resume wise:

Jones
Calzaghe
Griffin
Toney

Toney simply is a never was.
Are you nuts? He crushed Nunn with a blistering righthand in the 11th round. Nunn would have schooled Calzahge. Joe couldnt carry Toney's jockstrap. Toney was always a super talented guy with weight issues especially during his days as a lightheavy and even cruiser. His success at heavyweight speaks for itself. He was a highly succesful middlweight, Calzhage wouldnt even be competitive in Toneys middleweight era, and Calzahge would have been crushed by the likes of Mclellan, Benn, Jones Jr, Julian Jackson, if he fought them during their eras too. Your rating Griffen ahead of Toney because he beat Toney, even though he didnt accomplish half of what Toney has? hmmm:huh

What great fighters have Calzhage beat that warrants such a high ranking by you? His biggest win is Lacy hands down, and Lacy hasnt proven anything. Everyone is a total joke. Anybody with a name he fought when ****** knew Joe can win.

[China_hand_Joe]

Are you nuts? He crushed Nunn with a blistering righthand in the 11th round. Nunn would have schooled Calzahge. Joe couldnt carry Toney's jockstrap. Toney was always a super talented guy with weight issues especially during his days as a lightheavy and even cruiser. His success at heavyweight speaks for itself. He was a highly succesful middlweight, Calzhage wouldnt even be competitive in Toneys middleweight era, and Calzahge would have been crushed by the likes of Mclellan, Benn, Jones Jr, Julian Jackson, if he fought them during their eras too. Your rating Griffen ahead of Toney because he beat Toney, even though he didnt accomplish half of what Toney has? hmmm:huh

Griffin was simply better. I don't care for accomplishments. I am a Joe Calzaghe fan.

[kg0208]

It is fighters whom are promoted by Americans, who pull strings in the American media. John Duddy for example is more sucessful than his talents merit.

Americans have a horrible habit of leaving older fighters hanging in P4P lists too long. This will apply to europeans like Joe Calzaghe even, if he beats Kessler.

Nothing as extreme as the

Not really. We are no different than you are. You are just as biased as are many Euros based soley on nationality.

[lefthook31]

Toney is two levels below Calzaghe and Jones and one level below Hopkins and Kessler.

This has to be Frank ****** posting this garbage.:rofl

[China_hand_Joe]

Not really. We are no different than you are. You are just as biased as are many Euros based soley on nationality.I don't rate more than a handful of European fighters.

I want Mayweather to beat Hatton as he is the more talented fighter. I support only the best fighters, I am not patriotic, nationality is a non-factor for me. I have just noticed an overall average worldwide bias against the European fighters and will continue to point out it's existance in most of my posts.

[kg0208]

I don't rate more than a handful of European fighters.

I want Mayweather to beat Hatton as he is the more talented fighter. I support whoever the best fighter is in any fight.

And I support no one but Jones, but bet on the better fighter regardless of nationality, race, ethnicity, etc.

See, generalizing is crappy....which was my point in saying what I said about Euros.

[lefthook31]

Griffin was simply better. I don't care for accomplishments. I am a Joe Calzaghe fan.
Thats great. I like Joe too, but lets be realistic. His resume is comparable to the great heavyweight Super Brian Nielson of Denmark. He has been carefully matched and his record is built up on a lot of garbage fighters, and fighters who were taken at the end of their respective runs, ie, Charles Brewer, Euban, Antwun Echols and Omar Sheika, none of which are anything special. His dismantling of Jeff Lacy was impressive, but nothing compared to doing something like that to a fighter of Jones or Toneys, or Mcallums or Nunns caliber when he was fighting. Lacy was simply a one dimensional banger, with little to offer once the hook was taken away.
Cudos to Joe for fighting a great fight against Lacy, but he has yet to face the type of competition that will bring him into the "great status".
This is a trend weve seen amongst many of the european fighters, and UK fighters. Guys like the Klitschko's, Calzahge, Valuev, Michalzewski, and Ricky Hatton have all been the beneficiaries of padded records, and thats because the promoters know they can keep them in their countries and make big money with them not risking losses. Thats why you have to give credit to a guy like Ricky Hatton who has broken away from ******, to test his skills against the best fighters out there, and you can see by some of his recent performances, that he has had to step it up quite a bit to compete against all the different styles his promoters has been throwing at him so that he will be prepared for the best fighter or fighters like Mayweather. Same goes for Wladmir Klitschko. Joe has not done that yet, and its just fact from his resume. I hope he does, because I believe he has a lot of skills and is generally a tough guy, but he had missed out on some chances to real spring board his status up into the Roy Jones, Bernard Hopkins category, but his promoter balked.

[McGrain]

A bulked up Calzaghe would have a heavyweight chin, you are dreaming if you think Ruiz will catch up to and KO him.


I don't agree that Calzaghe would have a heavyweight's chin.

I DO agree that with the right fight plan Calzaghe could keep one step ahead of a fighter like Ruiz for a twelve round fight.

[China_hand_Joe]

I don't agree that Calzaghe would have a heavyweight's chin.

I DO agree that with the right fight plan Calzaghe could keep one step ahead of a fighter like Ruiz for a twelve round fight.

I don't agree with myself either.

[McGrain]

I don't agree with myself either.


If you can lie down without holding on you're allright.

Just a couple more moths and then it will be over.

You can make it.

[Axe]

No.

Calzaghe would've gotten caught in the corner at some point.