What if Ali had been 175 lbs?

[MrPook]

What if Ali had been a light heavyweight?

Lets say that after winning the Olympic gold medal at light heavyweights he could stay at light heavyweight.

So therefore he would not have developed the heavyweight frame so their is no problem making the weight ( It's impossible I now, but what IF ) and therefore he would not have developed the same punching power. Still he would not need the same punching power to be successful as an LHW.

Also he would even be more agile and faster then he was at heavyweight.

Also he still would have the same chin (or almost as good) as at heavyweight and the recovery ability's. Therefore it would even harder for his competition to knock him out.

Also he would still develop/ have the heart and fire that he had as a heavyweight.

How would he have done in the era that he fought in? And would he be considered being p4p #1 of all time? Since being a heavyweight works against him in that case I think.

[Bokaj]

What if Ali had been a light heavyweight?

Lets say that after winning the Olympic gold medal at light heavyweights he could stay at light heavyweight.

So therefore he would not have developed the heavyweight frame so their is no problem making the weight ( It's impossible I now, but what IF ) and therefore he would not have developed the same punching power. Still he would not need the same punching power to be successful as an LHW.

Also he would even be more agile and faster then he was at heavyweight.

Also he still would have the same chin (or almost as good) as at heavyweight and the recovery ability's. Therefore it would even harder for his competition to knock him out.

Also he would still develop/ have the heart and fire that he had as a heavyweight.

How would he have done in the era that he fought in? And would he be considered being p4p #1 of all time? Since being a heavyweight works against him in that case I think.

Thing is, Ali was about as fast at 212 lbs as he was at 175 lbs. He had quite an amazing physical development between 1960-1967 in that he bulked up, but didn't really seem to lose any speed. That's what made him so remarkable at 212 lbs.

[MrPook]

Thing is, Ali was about as fast at 212 lbs as he was at 175 lbs. He had quite an amazing physical development between 1960-1967 in that he bulked up, but didn't really seem to lose any speed. That's what made him so remarkable at 212 lbs.

He might have carried most of his speed with him. Still he must have left some behind.

Also I am not only talking of hand speed. But also his footwork, overall agility, work rate, and the endurance that would allow him to fight at a higher pace during the fight.

[Bokaj]

He might have carried most of his speed with him. Still he must have left some behind.

Also I am not only talking of hand speed. But also his footwork, overall agility, work rate, and the endurance that would allow him to fight at a higher pace during the fight.

But he seemed to lose very little, or even none, of that. I don't think he looks faster or more agile in the Olympics than he does against Williams or Terrell. It should also be noted that Ali mainly had trouble with speed and workrate, and not power and durability. Jones, a natural LHW, gave him his toughest fight in the 1960's. I don't think Ali would have been quite as dominant as a LHW. Hard to say of course because he was far from the finished product when he still fought at LHW. But even though he would have been the fastest LHW, he probably wouldn't have had the same speed advantage he had as a HW.

It is food for thought, though, and an interesting angle.

[MrPook]

He might not have had the same speed advantage as at HW, but I forgot about the reach advantage he would have had over most LHW.

[Bill Butcher]

What if Ali had been a light heavyweight?

Lets say that after winning the Olympic gold medal at light heavyweights he could stay at light heavyweight.

So therefore he would not have developed the heavyweight frame so their is no problem making the weight ( It's impossible I now, but what IF ) and therefore he would not have developed the same punching power. Still he would not need the same punching power to be successful as an LHW.

Also he would even be more agile and faster then he was at heavyweight.

Also he still would have the same chin (or almost as good) as at heavyweight and the recovery ability's. Therefore it would even harder for his competition to knock him out.

Also he would still develop/ have the heart and fire that he had as a heavyweight.

How would he have done in the era that he fought in? And would he be considered being p4p #1 of all time? Since being a heavyweight works against him in that case I think.

I already see Ali as no2 p4p behind only Robinson, so he`d either be 1 or 2, a lot would depend on his longevity, who he beat & lost to, if he lost 3 n a half prime yrs thru the draft etc & if he were to step up to HWT & add a title there to add to his legacy because by the time Ali fought, SRR was already cast in stone as the GOAT in a lot of peoples minds.

Robinson is a hard guy to topple from the top spot but if anyone could, maybe a LHWT Ali without the 3+ yrs interruption of his prime & a HWT title to cap off an undefeated career could do the trick :think

[McGrain]

But he seemed to lose very little, or even none, of that. I don't think he looks faster or more agile in the Olympics than he does against Williams or Terrell.

I agree with you, and he became more "stabbing" with his speed, making him look a little faster if anything.

To answer the original question, for me, the #1 p4p needs to show some measure of achievments at other weights. The usual suspects, Langford, Greb, Armstrong and Robinson all have this. In fact, going down through my list, there is basically nobody but Pep who is known primarily for one weight, they all did great things elsewhere, until you get out of the teens.

[Longhhorn71]

He needed the extra weight.....he was knocked down by Cooper & Hunsaker.

Foster would have put him down too.

[Bill Butcher]

He might not have had the same speed advantage as at HW, but I forgot about the reach advantage he would have had over most LHW.

You also said if he could have the same chin... well, remember Ali letting Foster tee off on his chin & pretending to wobble ?.... & Foster was probably the hardest hitting LHWT ever, imagine a LHWT letting Foster tee off on his chin just to gain a mental edge :yikes scary stuff. That boldness alone would have made Ali a legend if he was a 175 lb fighter.

[Bokaj]

He might not have had the same speed advantage as at HW, but I forgot about the reach advantage he would have had over most LHW.

That's true.

[MrPook]

To answer the original question, for me, the #1 p4p needs to show some measure of achievments at other weights. The usual suspects, Langford, Greb, Armstrong and Robinson all have this. In fact, going down through my list, there is basically nobody but Pep who is known primarily for one weight, they all did great things elsewhere, until you get out of the teens.So a fighter who only fights at one weightclass ( like most heavyweights ) do have zero to no chance to ever be p4p #1 no matter how good they are?

He needed the extra weight.....he was knocked down by Cooper & Hunsaker.He became Olympic champion at LHW so I don't see why he would need the extra weight. Although it probably did increase his punch resistance a little.

[guncho]

we would not talk about him!

[McGrain]

So a fighter who only fights at one weightclass ( like most heavyweights ) do have zero to no chance to ever be p4p #1 no matter how good they are?.

It's hard, but most list reflect this fact.

And the bottom line is it is really hard for a natural 140lb fighter to beat top men at 160 than it is for a natural 140lb fighter to be at top men at 140. In other words, men who work their way through one or more weight classes taking serious scalps with them as they go are tending to prove themsleves better than the guys who are stuck in one weight class.

[MrPook]

It's hard, but most list reflect this fact.

And the bottom line is it is really hard for a natural 140lb fighter to beat top men at 160 than it is for a natural 140lb fighter to be at top men at 140. In other words, men who work their way through one or more weight classes taking serious scalps with them as they go are tending to prove themsleves better than the guys who are stuck in one weight class.

I don't see it as a fact. Ali beating Liston, Patterson, Frazier, Foreman, Norton and a lot of other good names. That is a fact.

Also the heavyweights is a open class. Therefore a heavyweight champion has to overcome all kinds of sizes and styles that come with it.

[McGrain]

I don't see it as a fact.


You don't think it's harder for a natural 140lb man to beat a natural 160lb man? All things being equal, I think it's pretty obvious.

[MrPook]

You don't think it's harder for a natural 140lb man to beat a natural 160lb man? All things being equal, I think it's pretty obvious.

Of course it is. Still that is the kind of stuff that heavyweights do all the time.

[Bummy Davis]

he would have still beaten a lot of heavyweights with his conditioning and speed of hand and foot

[McGrain]

Of course it is. Still that is the kind of stuff that heavyweights do all the time.


Heavyweights don't tend to work their way through different weight classes facing different top men from different divisions, no. Some HW's do sometimes fight men that are heavier. I think a fighter who was coming in at around 210 and dominating this HW era, for example, would recieve additional p4p recognition.

[MrPook]

Heavyweights don't tend to work their way through different weight classes facing different top men from different divisions, no. Some HW's do sometimes fight men that are heavier. I think a fighter who was coming in at around 210 and dominating this HW era, for example, would recieve additional p4p recognition.

Still a 6'7'' fighter weighing 240 lbs being undisputed heavyweight champion and retire with a record of 54-0 with 52 by KO, having 20 title defenses against top competition could never be p4p #1?

[McGrain]

Still a 6'7'' fighter weighing 240 lbs being undisputed heavyweight champion and retire with a record of 54-0 with 52 by KO, having 20 title defenses against top competition could never be p4p #1?


No. I wouldn't say "could never be". He would need a pretty astonishing resume to compete with Langford beating greats from Gans through to Wills though, from 140 to HW.

[MrPook]

No. I wouldn't say "could never be". He would need a pretty astonishing resume to compete with Langford beating greats from Gans through to Wills though, from 140 to HW.

So a guy being 204 - 46 is supposed to be the best p4p ever?

[McGrain]

So a guy being 204 - 46 is supposed to be the best p4p ever?


He's my pick for p4p #1, yes. I'd say Robinson, Greb and Armstrong are also reasonable picks. I've never seen a list from a member I really respect that had Ali at #1, although he has crept into my top 10.

[Bill Butcher]

So a fighter who only fights at one weightclass ( like most heavyweights ) do have zero to no chance to ever be p4p #1 no matter how good they are?

Not according to Gil Clancy, he has Willie Pep as his GOAT p4p :good

[MrPook]

He's my pick for p4p #1, yes. I'd say Robinson, Greb and Armstrong are also reasonable picks. I've never seen a list from a member I really respect that had Ali at #1, although he has crept into my top 10.

What does get your respect? 25.000 posts?

[McGrain]

What does get your respect? 25.000 posts?

Top drawer posting over a sustainged period. You get guys that hit the ground running of course.

[MrPook]

Top drawer posting over a sustainged period. You get guys that hit the ground running of course.

Fair enough