Fighters who were rubbish in the gym, but good come fight night?

[cotto20]

Who are they? fighters who would look nothing but a club fighter in training and sparring, but look good when fight night came. Av heard librado andrade gets beat up in sparring, think alfonso gomez had the better of him when they sparred

[Russell]

Ali. Could look terrible, but that may of been due to him just letting them wail on him. I know he did that quite often later in his career.

[john garfield]

Who are they? fighters who would look nothing but a club fighter in training and sparring, but look good when fight night came. Av heard librado andrade gets beat up in sparring, think alfonso gomez had the better of him when they sparred

You're describing Rocky Marciano, c20

[cotto20]

You're describing Rocky Marciano, c20
did marciano get dropped often in sparring?

[cotto20]

Ali. Could look terrible, but that may of been due to him just letting them wail on him. I know he did that quite often later in his career.
Av just finished reading dundes's book he said clay got knocked down in sparring before the 2nd liston fight

[john garfield]

did marciano get dropped often in sparring?

Never got dropped, that I saw, 'n I watched him in the gym and in camp for years, but looked like a clumsy, brawling club fighter (prelimer, at that) against flash-in-the-pan gym fighters who ultimately went nowhere.

[john garfield]

Av just finished reading dundes's book he said clay got knocked down in sparring before the 2nd liston fight

Hard to imagine anyone wouldda picked Ali to've accomplished what he did if they'd watched him spar at Miami's 5th St.Gym after the Olympics.

He was still Clay then, and a lean motor-mouth who shoe shined without power or strength, or inclination, to mix inside.

Didn't look like he'd fill-out to a legit heavyweight, and was more interested in drivin' Angelo Dundee nuts, pullin' pranks with Willie Pastrano.

Thought he was gonna be a run-of-the-mill amateur hotshot who'd get flattened by the first decent opponent.

[he grant]

Just saw his 1oth fight, from 1962 against Mitcalf ... he weighted 188 pounds ... like a colt ...

[GPater11093]

JG and Cotto

i have read the same Dundee book its pretty good. He says Ali wasnt that great sparring

but didnt Ali spar Pastrano after the olympics and really beat up Willie?

[john garfield]

JG and Cotto

i have read the same Dundee book its pretty good. He says Ali wasnt that great sparring

but didnt Ali spar Pastrano after the olympics and really beat up Willie?

Clay may have sparred with Willie, GP, but it must've been on a day I missed. Cassius and Pastrano were like Graziano 'n Pep: Anything for a laugh.

Cringed when I watched Clay spar Mike DeJohn (who he later KO'd for real) Thought, between Clay's lean frame and DeJohn's monster left hook, he might be a fatality.

[PowerPuncher]

Its more often fighters who are amazing in the gym, genuine world class but not in the ring, lacking ring confidence. THink Ryan Rhodes was far better in the ring

[red cobra]

Ali. Could look terrible, but that may of been due to him just letting them wail on him. I know he did that quite often later in his career.
The guy in your avatar, Carlos Monzon NEVER indulged in gym wars. In an interview he criticized American fighters for leaving their best behind in the gym..saying that he only worked on "certain things" when in the gym, and that it was inportant to get "rest" as much as to work out in the gym. Keep in mind also that Monzon smoked a couple of packs of cigarette a day and only backed off to about 1 pack while in training.

[Bokaj]

Clay may have sparred with Willie, GP, but it must've been on a day I missed. Cassius and Pastrano were like Graziano 'n Pep: Anything for a laugh.

Cringed when I watched Clay spar Mike DeJohn (who he later KO'd for real) Thought, between Clay's lean frame and DeJohn's monster left hook, he might be a fatality.

John, what did you think of the more mature Ali (1964-1967) when you saw him? How does he rank among the fighters you've seen live?

[ChrisPontius]

Keep in mind also that Monzon smoked a couple of packs of cigarette a day and only backed off to about 1 pack while in training.

That's dedication for you. :lol: Monzon did have one of the longest careers at top level though, and he has a good point. I think guys like Bowe and Taylor (Meldrick) could've had careers twice as long if they didn't go to war every time, in or outside the gym.

[Seamus]

Never got dropped, that I saw, 'n I watched him in the gym and in camp for years, but looked like a clumsy, brawling club fighter (prelimer, at that) against flash-in-the-pan gym fighters who ultimately went nowhere.

I wish I could watch films of what your eyes have seen.

Seriously.

[cotto20]

The guy in your avatar, Carlos Monzon NEVER indulged in gym wars. In an interview he criticized American fighters for leaving their best behind in the gym..saying that he only worked on "certain things" when in the gym, and that it was inportant to get "rest" as much as to work out in the gym. Keep in mind also that Monzon smoked a couple of packs of cigarette a day and only backed off to about 1 pack while in training.
would you be able to post any monzon interviews up?

[SteveO]

James Toney got away with gym laziness for quite some time.

[john garfield]

James Toney got away with gym laziness for quite some time.

JT was lazy doin' everything but sparring, SO. Three days a week went 15-20 rounds with 4-5 sparring partners, flattening most of 'em, and challenging anyone else in the gym.

[Arka]

Wouldn't some fighters want to work on their weak points in the gym?
Looking rubbish in the gym might not be anything to do with the A game a boxer brings to the ring on the night of the fight.

[john garfield]

John, what did you think of the more mature Ali (1964-1967) when you saw him? How does he rank among the fighters you've seen live?

I'd seen Clay as a listless, piddy-padding loudmouth in the gym for so long, B, couldn't get myself to buy 'm till after Liston. Thought Sonny would crush 'm.

[red cobra]

would you be able to post any monzon interviews up?
I sure would if I could find them...some are from old boxing magazines from the seventies, a couple are from that Sport's Illustrated site that has TONS of articles that I've gleaned...I'll look for them.

[he grant]

Dempsey said he was a terrible gym fighter ...

[JohnThomas1]

That's dedication for you. :lol: Monzon did have one of the longest careers at top level though, and he has a good point. I think guys like Bowe and Taylor (Meldrick) could've had careers twice as long if they didn't go to war every time, in or outside the gym.

Kronk was known for this as well.

[cotto20]

I sure would if I could find them...some are from old boxing magazines from the seventies, a couple are from that Sport's Illustrated site that has TONS of articles that I've gleaned...I'll look for them.
thanks dude you found any yet?

[TheGreatA]

Dempsey said he was a terrible gym fighter ...

Still, some of the most impressive footage of Dempsey that I've seen have been films of his sparring sessions.

[red cobra]

thanks dude you found any yet?
It's frustrating finding anything on the web about Monzon..he's as mysterious as if he came from another planet...I did find this S.I. article, but I hope this works:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[fists of fury]

You're describing Rocky Marciano, c20

First guy to come to my mind...:good

[cotto20]

It's frustrating finding anything on the web about Monzon..he's as mysterious as if he came from another planet...I did find this S.I. article, but I hope this works:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
thanks that was a great read

[red cobra]

thanks that was a great read
I'm glad it worked out cotto20...I've never posted an article like that before...I'll see if I can dig up some more.

[cotto20]

I'm glad it worked out cotto20...I've never posted an article like that before...I'll see if I can dig up some more.
any monzon interviews would be great thanks

[GPater11093]

Clay may have sparred with Willie, GP, but it must've been on a day I missed. Cassius and Pastrano were like Graziano 'n Pep: Anything for a laugh.

Cringed when I watched Clay spar Mike DeJohn (who he later KO'd for real) Thought, between Clay's lean frame and DeJohn's monster left hook, he might be a fatality.

it was in Dave Remnicks book about Ali and Dundees latest book. It was when Pastrano was down for a fight in Louisville and it was before the olympics and ali begged to spar with him. I think they did a round before Angelo called it short. But you will probably know more than me about it.