Riddick Bowe's ATG status...

[PolishPummler]

Is null and void simply because he isnt an ATG.

Who in the classic section keeps polluting your minds?

[lefthook31]

This coming from a guy whose countries biggest star is the Charles Manson of boxing. Andrew Golota. :good

[PowerPuncher]

This coming from a guy whose countries biggest star is the Charles Manson of boxing. Andrew Golota. :good

He Polish Pummelled Riddick Bowe :lol:

[mr. magoo]

I don't know where I'd rank Riddick Bowe truthfully.

By all standards, his record is very good though. He was never stopped and lost only once to a great fighter who he beat twice. Additionally, he defeated a fair number of young up-coming prospects, has claim to being a lineal champion and competed honorably in one of the more talent filled Olympic games for heavyweights in history.

On the flipside, he fought very few of the best heavyweights of his era, ducked a serious challenger and was stripped for doing so, and although he did not lose officially to Andrew Golata, he certainly got his ass handed to him.

I think somewhere between #13 - #17 is probably a fair rating. Most would likely have him lower, but never being stopped and taking two out of three away from Holyfield has to count for something.

[Muchmoore]

I think somewhere between #13 - #17 is probably a fair rating. Most would likely have him lower, but never being stopped and taking two out of three away from Holyfield has to count for something.

True, Bowe was never stopped. But during his career competing in probably the best era of punchers ever, he fought pretty much none of them. That's not a coincidence.

[mr. magoo]

True, Bowe was never stopped. But during his career competing in probably the best era of punchers ever, he fought pretty much none of them. That's not a coincidence.

Precisely why I also mentioned this :



he fought very few of the best heavyweights of his era, ducked a serious challenger and was stripped for doing so.

[lefthook31]

He Polish Pummelled Riddick Bowe :lol:
Hes still a career LOSER. Bowe had all time great skills, but never reached all time great status.

[lefthook31]

True, Bowe was never stopped. But during his career competing in probably the best era of punchers ever, he fought pretty much none of them. That's not a coincidence.

Please list the punchers he avoided?

[Muchmoore]

Please list the punchers he avoided?

Ever hear of that Lennox Lewis guy who Bowe was supposed to fight but instead decided to throw his belt away rather than fight.

[PowerPuncher]

Please list the punchers he avoided?

Lewis, Tyson, Morrison, Bruno, Mercer, Rudduck, McCall for starters

[mr. magoo]

Please list the punchers he avoided?

Well I think Lennox Lewis was an automatic given. As for the rest, I don't know if we can say that he " purposely " avoided them, or if it was just a matter of bad timing that had to do with some of those matches not being made. In either case, Michael Moorer, George Foreman, Mike Tyson, Tommy Morrison, David Tua, Ike Ibeabuchi and possibly a few others never entered the ring with Bowe.

The only serious punchers he fought were Andrew Golata and Herbie Hide. One of whom began his career at Cruiserweight and nearly had him out on his feet, while the other basically thrashed him from pillar to post.

[PolishPummler]

True, Bowe was never stopped. But during his career competing in probably the best era of punchers ever, he fought pretty much none of them. That's not a coincidence.

:deal

Other than Holyfield his resume is weak considering the era he fought in.

So what make's him an ATG?

[lefthook31]

Ever hear of that Lennox Lewis guy who Bowe was supposed to fight but instead decided to throw his belt away rather than fight.
you said he avoided every puncher?? That would be plural more than one?

[PowerPuncher]

you said he avoided every puncher?? That would be plural more than one?

Lewis, Tyson, Morrison, Bruno, Mercer, Rudduck, McCall for starters :hey

[mr. magoo]

Lewis, Tyson, Morrison, Bruno, Mercer, Rudduck, McCall for starters


He was actually scheduled to face Mercer in the spring of 1993, but Ray was upset by Ferguson. Therefore, I don't think we can legitimately say that he " avoided " him. McCall, though possesing a decent punch, is not a man who I rate as one of the harder hitting heavyweights of the 90's. As for the rest, Ruddock fell off the face of the earth after losing to Lewis in '92, so saying that Bowe avoided him is rather moot. Tyson was gone for most of Riddick Bowe's run, and when he returned, I think Don King was actually stearing Tyson clear of Bowe, as opposed to the other way around.

Anyway, I think it was timing and circumstance that had to do with most of these fights not happening.

[Muchmoore]

you said he avoided every puncher?? That would be plural more than one?

I said he avoided pretty much every big puncher in an era which had loads of big punchers. Powerpuncher pretty much nailed it, no need for me to list them.

[lefthook31]

Lewis, Tyson, Morrison, Bruno, Mercer, Rudduck, McCall for starters
How do you know he avoided these fighters? He was supposed to fight Mercer who I never considered a big puncher, his KO record would suggest the same. Mercer lost to Ferguson scrapping that fight. Morrison and Mcall are just comical, and Ruddock was fighting for the #1 contender status when Bowe was fighting for the title, in fact Bowe fought on the undercard of Tyson Ruddock, and Ruddock lost, losing his status. With exception to Lewis, whic has been argued on this forum many times, there is no proof given his record and the available contenders, that he purposely avoided punchers, especially considering the guy had a good chin, and was never knocked out, and his fighting style had him mixing it up with everyone he faced, he wasnt a fighter who fought cautiously.

[lefthook31]

I said he avoided pretty much every big puncher in an era which had loads of big punchers. Powerpuncher pretty much nailed it, no need for me to list them.
Because you cant.:good

[lefthook31]

He was actually scheduled to face Mercer in the spring of 1993, but Ray was upset by Ferguson. Therefore, I don't think we can legitimately say that he " avoided " him. McCall thought possesing a decent punch, is not a man who I rate as one of the harder hitting heavyweights of the 90's. As for the rest, Ruddock fell off the face of the earth after losing to Lewis in '92, so saying that Bowe avoided him is rather moot. Tyson was gone for most of Riddick Bowe's run, and when he returned, I think Don King was actually stearing Tyson clear of Bowe, as opposed to the other way around.

Anyway, I think it was timing and circumstance that had to do with most of these fights not happening.
Wow I actually agree with you.:D

[Muchmoore]

Mercer lost to Ferguson scrapping that fight. Morrison and Mcall are just comical, and Ruddock was fighting for the #1 contender status when Bowe was fighting for the title, in fact Bowe fought on the undercard of Tyson Ruddock, and Ruddock lost, losing his status.

Yeah, I forgot how legendary 90's Dokes and Jesse Ferguson were.

[PolishPummler]

How do you know he avoided these fighters? He was supposed to fight Mercer who I never considered a big puncher, his KO record would suggest the same. Mercer lost to Ferguson scrapping that fight. Morrison and Mcall are just comical, and Ruddock was fighting for the #1 contender status when Bowe was fighting for the title, in fact Bowe fought on the undercard of Tyson Ruddock, and Ruddock lost, losing his status. With exception to Lewis, whic has been argued on this forum many times, there is no proof given his record and the available contenders that he purposely avoided punchers, especially considering the guy had a good chin, and was never knocked out, and his fighting style had him mixing it up with everyone he faced, he wasnt a fighter who fought cautiously.

Too bad i couldnt find the footage on youtube of Bowe BITCHING OUT and dumping his belt to AVOID Lennox.

Shamefull in any era by any standards.

[TheGreatA]

Wasn't the Lewis-Bowe fight close to being made twice after the initial "ducking" by Bowe? I believe was it was supposed to happen when Lewis got knocked out by McCall and then when Bowe was retired by Golota.

[mr. magoo]

Yeah, I forgot how legendary 90's Dokes and Jesse Ferguson were.
:lol:

[lefthook31]

Yeah, I forgot how legendary 90's Dokes and Jesse Ferguson were.
Dokes was 50-3, was coming off losses to Ruddock and Holyfield, which gave Ruddock the status to fight Tyson. Ferguson had just knocked off Mercer. How about Pinklon Thomas, Bert Cooper, (as big a puncher and a better chin than Tommy Morrison), Tyrell Biggs, Tony Tubbs, Bruce Seldon, and Pierre Coetzer for a shot at the title. Thats a pretty respectable run at the title.
You like a lot of guys on this board, only know Bowe for fighting Golota and supposedly avoiding Lennox Lewis. Ive found its just wasted typing with people like you.
Tyson was going to jail and was fighting Ruddock for the #1 spot when Bowe was just entering into the top ten, Mcall wasnt even on the scene and was not considered some dynamo in the division more known as a sparring partner. Morrison had no chin was getting knocked out by Mike Bentt. Mercer was a lazy fuck who couldnt get past a journeymen and gave that journeyman a shot at the title.
Obviously there is more to it than just simply saying he avoided all these fighters.

[DamonD]

It's probably better to say didn't fight rather than avoided. Let's give Bowe some credit here. Opportunities may not have been right. However it went down though, the paucity of genuine heavyweight punchers on his record is an issue that he can't ever change. It doesn't help in comparison that Holyfield and Lewis in the same era fought a lot of them.

Wasn't the Lewis-Bowe fight close to being made twice after the initial "ducking" by Bowe? I believe was it was supposed to happen when Lewis got knocked out by McCall and then when Bowe was retired by Golota.
As said.

The first instance, I don't know actually, I always assumed it was going to happen but then surely the WBC would've thrown an absolute fit at Bowe challenging for their belt again. I always thought it was meant to happen in early '95 but now I wonder what the WBC would've done.

The second time, plain and simple, Main Events pushed Golota into Lewis's slot instead. Straightforward as that.

[lefthook31]

Wasn't the Lewis-Bowe fight close to being made twice after the initial "ducking" by Bowe? I believe was it was supposed to happen when Lewis got knocked out by McCall and then when Bowe was retired by Golota.
yes, it wasnt entirely Bowes fault, Lewis had something to do with it getting knocked out and the fight would have been much bigger had it come off after the second Holyfield fight and when Lewis took the title from Tucker.

[DamonD]

And I agree with Magoo, it's kinda tricky to place Bowe. The Holyfield I fight is crucial. A fair bit of the rest is a bit reliant on "shoulda coulda".

[Muchmoore]

Because you cant.:good


Let's take a look at the Ring Magazine Annual Ratings, these are from the end of 1992, after Bowe beat Holyfield.
Riddick Bowe
Lennox Lewis ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Evander Holyfield ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Michael Moorer ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Tony Tucker ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
George Foreman ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Razor Ruddock ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Ray Mercer ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Tommy Morrison ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Alex Garcia ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
So you have Lennox, Moorer, Foreman, Ruddock, Mercer, and Tommy Morrison all big punchers at the top of the division. Who did Big Daddy fight in the year following? Dokes, Ferguson, and Holyfield. Although to be fair him fighting Ferguson is somewhat excused by the fact that he beat Mercer, but at the same time this is when he threw his belt away to not fight Lennox Lewis.


Here's 1993,
Evander Holyfield ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Riddick Bowe ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Lennox Lewis ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Michael Moorer ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Michael Bentt ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Oliver McCall ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Ray Mercer ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Phil Jackson ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Tommy Morrison ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Mike Hunter ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
After Holy beat Bowe in a rematch, these were the rankings at the end of 1993. You have Lewis, Moorer, McCall, Mercer, Morrison, and even Phil Jackson who was a big puncher all ranked highly. Who did Bowe elect to fight in the year following? Buster Mathis Jr. and Larry Donald :lol: Like I said, there were more worthy punchers to fight in this era than maybe any other and Bowe fought almost none of them.

[DamonD]

I still wish the WBC had made Lewis-Tucker for the vacant belt. Just awarding it to a fighter outright just always sucks in my opinion, didn't Norton have the same situation?

[lefthook31]

It's probably better to say didn't fight rather than avoided. Let's give Bowe some credit here. Opportunities may not have been right. However it went down though, the paucity of genuine heavyweight punchers on his record is an issue that he can't ever change. It doesn't help in comparison that Holyfield and Lewis in the same era fought a lot of them.


As said.

The first instance, I don't know actually, I always assumed it was going to happen but then surely the WBC would've thrown an absolute fit at Bowe challenging for their belt again. I always thought it was meant to happen in early '95 but now I wonder what the WBC would've done.

The second time, plain and simple, Main Events pushed Golota into Lewis's slot instead. Straightforward as that.
The Bowe that fought Golota would have had no chance against Lewis. The Bowe that fought hepatitis Holyfield in the third fight wouldnt have had a chance either.
The fight should have happened right after the first Holyfield fight or shortly there after. Bowe went downhill too fast because of his own fault.

[lefthook31]

Let's take a look at the Ring Magazine Annual Ratings, these are from the end of 1992, after Bowe beat Holyfield.
Riddick Bowe
Lennox Lewis ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Evander Holyfield ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Michael Moorer ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Tony Tucker ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
George Foreman ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Razor Ruddock ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Ray Mercer ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Tommy Morrison ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Alex Garcia ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
So you have Lennox, Moorer, Foreman, Ruddock, Mercer, and Tommy Morrison all big punchers at the top of the division. Who did Big Daddy fight in the year following? Dokes, Ferguson, and Holyfield. Although to be fair him fighting Ferguson is somewhat excused by the fact that he beat Mercer, but at the same time this is when he threw his belt away to not fight Lennox Lewis.







Here's 1993,
Evander Holyfield ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Riddick Bowe ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Lennox Lewis ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Michael Moorer ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Michael Bentt ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Oliver McCall ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Ray Mercer ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Phil Jackson ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Tommy Morrison ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Mike Hunter ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
After Holy beat Bowe in a rematch, these were the rankings at the end of 1993. You have Lewis, Moorer, McCall, Mercer, Morrison, and even Phil Jackson who was a big puncher all ranked highly. Who did Bowe elect to fight in the year following? Buster Mathis Jr. and Larry Donald :lol: Like I said, there were more worthy punchers to fight in this era than maybe any other and Bowe fought almost none of them.
He fought Holyfield at the end of 92, and fought Holyfield at the end of 93 who ranked at the top of both lists.
I would add Mathis was a comeback fight after the loss to Holyfield in 94. Regardless of the Ring Magazines ratings Donald put Bowe right back in the top ten with winning his WBC continetial title. He fought Hide for the WBO title in 95.
Was Phil Jackosn, Mike Bentt or Mike Hunter any more dangerous than Herbie Hide??

[Muchmoore]

He fought Holyfield at the end of 92, and fought Holyfield at the end of 93 who ranked at the top of both lists.
Was Phil Jackosn, Mike Bentt or Mike Hunter any more dangerous than Herbie Hide??

Holyfield isn't a puncher, and isn't relevent in this argument.

I never said he never fought a puncher, just that he fought almost none of the punchers of his era. The fact that Hide is the only puncher he faced says it all.

[lefthook31]

Holyfield isn't a puncher, and isn't relevent in this argument.

I never said he never fought a puncher, just that he fought almost none of the punchers of his era. The fact that Hide is the only puncher he faced says it all.
So your saying he should have fought a one dimensional puncher like Tommy Morrison, Mike Bentt, or Alex Garcia, rather than fighting a complete fighter for the title???:huh Or maybe he should have squeezed in a fight with one of those guys on the undercard to his main event?
Even if he didnt fight the biggest punchers, which I would argue, what difference does it make if you are fighting the top fighter in the division? Bowe didnt have a bad chin when he was in condition thats a fact.
He won the title, made two defenses, and fought Holyfield again, lost took time off, came back against Mathis. Got back into the rankings against Donald, who was undefeated and in a top position, and then fought Hide for the WBO title, and then rematched Holyfield.

[godking]

He is lower top 15 but ONLY because he won the holyfield trilogy he doesnt win the trilogy he does not make my top 15.

[ripcity]

Head to head he matches up very well with anyone. he has the size and skills to beat anyone. His career is not what it could have been. After beating Holyfield he should have fought Lewis. Lewis who had a better career than Bowe and would win a prime for prime match up was still devloping. People point to their Olympic fight as to why Lewis would have won than. I disagree. This was Bowe's small window of oppertunity. He threw away his legacy when he droped the WBC belt into that trash can. Bowe would have two easy defences before losing to Holyfield in the "fanman" fight. Bowe seemed to have his career back on thrck he had won the WBO belt and defeted Holyfield in a third fight. He had his two fights with Golota. Officialy wins but consedered losses by most. However one must wonder how much of an impact those low blows had on Bowe.

[janitor]

Holyfield isn't a puncher, and isn't relevent in this argument.

I never said he never fought a puncher, just that he fought almost none of the punchers of his era. The fact that Hide is the only puncher he faced says it all.

Does a fighter necisarily have to defeat punchers to have a great resume or be a great fighter?

I don't think he necisarily does.

[redrooster]

i cant beleve Bowe would avoid someone like Lewis. He's way too tough

[lefthook31]

Does a fighter necisarily have to defeat punchers to have a great resume or be a great fighter?

I don't think he necisarily does.
Of course not. I feel like Ive been defending the guys legacy or the past year, and Im not his biggest fan. I guess Ive been trying to figure out why so many people dislike Bowe. He was personable, big, and exciting. It was a chance to see a big guy, box, slug and do it all. If you know the politics of boxing and the way in which Bowe got the title, it would be more understandable why his team wanted to get a couple extra fights before facing Lewis. Unfortunately his idiot manager decided to make a showcase of throwing the belt in the trash, which wound up back firing on Bowe big time. His lack of discipline and fights with Golota were more ammunition to bury him.

[Muchmoore]

Does a fighter necisarily have to defeat punchers to have a great resume or be a great fighter?

I don't think he necisarily does.

No, but throwing the belt in the trash to avoid Lewis AND then somehow not fighting nearly every big puncher when you're fighting in the best era ever for punchers hurts his claim to be a great.

[Muchmoore]

So your saying he should have fought a one dimensional puncher like Tommy Morrison, Mike Bentt, or Alex Garcia, rather than fighting a complete fighter for the title???

No, but he should of fought someone else than Michael freaking Dokes after beating Holyfield. How the hell do you explain him dumping his belt when he was going to have to fight Lewis?

He has no excuses. He knew that the winner of Lewis-Ruddock was going to fight him, but when Lewis flattened him he knew he was screwed. If he wanted to get "extra fights" before facing Lewis he shouldn't of challenged for the HW title.

[IntentionalButt]

Bowe is an ATOK.

[Rock0052]

No, but throwing the belt in the trash to avoid Lewis AND then somehow not fighting nearly every big puncher when you're fighting in the best era ever for punchers hurts his claim to be a great.

Good points.

[AnthonyJ74]

He was actually scheduled to face Mercer in the spring of 1993, but Ray was upset by Ferguson. Therefore, I don't think we can legitimately say that he " avoided " him. McCall, though possesing a decent punch, is not a man who I rate as one of the harder hitting heavyweights of the 90's. As for the rest, Ruddock fell off the face of the earth after losing to Lewis in '92, so saying that Bowe avoided him is rather moot. Tyson was gone for most of Riddick Bowe's run, and when he returned, I think Don King was actually stearing Tyson clear of Bowe, as opposed to the other way around.

Anyway, I think it was timing and circumstance that had to do with most of these fights not happening.

Actually, Ruddock called out Bowe on more than one occassion prior to Bowe fighting Holyfield for the title. But Bowe never agreed to a match with Ruddock. Bowe fought Pierre Coetzer instead of accepting Ruddock's last challenge. Ruddock had yet to be blown out by Lewis and was considered the most dangerous guy in the division (outside of Tyson).

[zadfrak]

right. And recall Morrison calling the guy out because he said he could land his left hook easy on the guy whenever they sparred. But Bowe was never in the matches anybody wanted to see and it was always a bunch of other fights instead.

And was anyone in the world actually picking Dokes in that Bowe fight? He was a huge huge underdog & how he got a title fight after that Ruddock demolition is incredible. Or criminal.

At the end of the day, the Bowe management was not going to put him in with dangerous opponents and a different opponent selection back then just would've seen guys like Joe Hipp and Alex Stewart and so on selected as opponents.

[COULDHAVEBEEN]

Bowe ATG? IMO = no.

For whatever reason, and IMO it doesn't matter why, Bowe didn't fight and beat enough of his generation of top flight opposition (see lists supplied by others in earlier posts).

If he'd have fought Lewis and won I'd certainly be saying yes, though.

[ricardinho]

Is null and void simply because he isnt an ATG.

Who in the classic section keeps polluting your minds?
Golota beat him twice...I miss Golota

[godking]

i cant beleve Bowe would avoid someone like Lewis. He's way too toughBowe broke up the undisputed HW title and threw away a belt rather then facing his amateur conqueror in Lewis .

Stop your girl like infatuation with Bowe .

[DamonD]

Have to say, I really did enjoy watching big Bowe fight though. Busy exciting fighter, that great right uppercut up close, always came forward.

Guy had his flaws, out of the ring too, but he was usually good fun to watch. Wish we had Bowe around now. Not the ghost last seen floating around Germany.

[janitor]

No, but throwing the belt in the trash to avoid Lewis AND then somehow not fighting nearly every big puncher when you're fighting in the best era ever for punchers hurts his claim to be a great.

Apart from Lewis (obviously) which punchers was ahe actualy on a colision course with in terms of his career?

I am always a bit wary of saying A and B shared an era and never fought so A ducked B or vice versa. Somtimes a closer look at what was happening on the ground tells a diferent story.

So if we acept that Bowe avoided Lewis then who else could we build up a case for?

[lefthook31]

Apart from Lewis (obviously) which punchers was ahe actualy on a colision course with in terms of his career?

I am always a bit wary of saying A and B shared an era and never fought so A ducked B or vice versa. Somtimes a closer look at what was happening on the ground tells a diferent story.

So if we acept that Bowe avoided Lewis then who else could we build up a case for?

There is no answer to that. Fighting Holyfield was as good as it got at the time. I believe Bowe's modus was to make as much money as possible, and at that time Im 100% sure Evander Holyfield was the top cash cow, especially considering what happened in the first fight and where his standing was. And that continued up until after the third fight when Lewis fought on Holyfield's undercard against Ray Mercer. It wasnt until 97 that Lewis started to become a main attraction, he regained his title against Mcall in the ballroom at MSG, and fought on Holy's undercard in the main stadium. Maybe a fight with Bowe would have elevated Lewis standing quicker, or sunk him, but it didnt happen so we can only speculate.

[Muchmoore]

Apart from Lewis (obviously) which punchers was ahe actualy on a colision course with in terms of his career?

I am always a bit wary of saying A and B shared an era and never fought so A ducked B or vice versa. Somtimes a closer look at what was happening on the ground tells a diferent story.

So if we acept that Bowe avoided Lewis then who else could we build up a case for?

Well Bowe avoiding Lewis for one is big enough.

There isn't neccesarily a single guy that Bowe HAD to fight, but considering the top ten at the time, the fact that he fought no puncher outside of Hide is no coincidence considering what he did with Lewis. Fighting guys like Donald, Dokes etc etc. is laughable.

[lefthook31]

Well Bowe avoiding Lewis for one is big enough.

There isn't neccesarily a single guy that Bowe HAD to fight, but considering the top ten at the time, the fact that he fought no puncher outside of Hide is no coincidence considering what he did with Lewis. Fighting guys like Donald, Dokes etc etc. is laughable.
Gonzalez and Golota were considered big punchers werent they?

[Muchmoore]

There is no answer to that. Fighting Holyfield was as good as it got at the time. I believe Bowe's modus was to make as much money as possible

I highly doubt he made more against Dokes and Ferguson than he would of made against an unbeaten Olympic Gold Medalist that was coming off of a huge KO win.

[Muchmoore]

Gonzalez and Golota were considered big punchers werent they?

Golota is big but not a big puncher. Gonzalez is pretty much a lazy sack of shit but did have some power, fair enough.

But the thing is neither of those guys are big punchers to the level that you have to be wary of one shot landing like a Morrison left hook or a Lewis right. They hit OK, nothing special.

[Bokaj]

In short, he's not an ATG. Yes, he won his trilogy with Holyfield, but other than that his number of impressive wins are about 0. An ancient Tubbs gave him trouble and Golota used him as a punching bag. And if you want say he was way past it for the Golota fights, you might as well say he beat Holyfield because Holy fought with his head up his ass in the first fight and had hepatitis in the third. So anyway you twist it, his record just isn't that great.

And him never being KO'd only means something if he had met some serious KO artists, and he didn't. I don't want to ge into who ducked who, but the bottom line is that he didn't meet the most dangerous punchers of his time and therefore didn't prove himself against them. Considering that his chin was a lot better than his defense, this was probably for the best.

[Vanboxingfan]

Apart from Lewis (obviously) which punchers was ahe actualy on a colision course with in terms of his career?

I am always a bit wary of saying A and B shared an era and never fought so A ducked B or vice versa. Somtimes a closer look at what was happening on the ground tells a diferent story.

So if we acept that Bowe avoided Lewis then who else could we build up a case for?

Absent a signed contract in place I would agree with your reasoning. But when you're essentially in a box off between four fighters to determine who the real heavyweight champion of the world is and when you're contractually obligated to fight the winner of the first bout, then I would suggest this is a very strong case that he avoided him. Most cases are far less persuasive.

[janitor]

Well Bowe avoiding Lewis for one is big enough.

There isn't neccesarily a single guy that Bowe HAD to fight, but considering the top ten at the time, the fact that he fought no puncher outside of Hide is no coincidence considering what he did with Lewis. Fighting guys like Donald, Dokes etc etc. is laughable.

I agree thathe should have fought Lewis but avoiding Lewis in not necisarily tantamount to avoiding punchers generaly.

He might just have avoided Lewis because he was the most dangerous challenger.

[lefthook31]

Absent a signed contract in place I would agree with your reasoning. But when you're essentially in a box off between four fighters to determine who the real heavyweight champion of the world is and when you're contractually obligated to fight the winner of the first bout, then I would suggest this is a very strong case that he avoided him. Most cases are far less persuasive.
How do you figure? It wasnt a box office between four fighters. Holyfield was the undisputed champion and Bowe the #1 contender. Ruddock and Lewis were fighting for the #1 contender spot, and mandated challenger for the WBC champion. I dont know about any signed contracts in place??? Ive never heard that before, but Bowe's people surely felt retaining two of the three titles, would be good enough to allow Bowe to fight some "easy" fights for extra money. The unification fight would have only gotten bigger at that point. Only Bowe and Rock Newman know the financial stipulations surrounding the fight.
In reality the only fighter of this generation who never vacated a title for sake of money or a tougher fight was Holyfield. Tyson did it against lewis, and Lewis did it against Byrd. Byrd was surely more of a threat to Lewis than Kirk Johnson. Tyson got a pass because it was too soon after his comeback, Lewis gets a pass because everyone assumes it would be an easy win.

[lefthook31]

Not so sure Bowe was as scared as some say either.
Boxing: Lennox Lewis is to meet Riddick Bowe, the World Boxing Organisation heavyweight champion, on Easter Saturday, 6 April

</EM>

Saturday, 2 December 1995

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[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links] Lennox Lewis is to meet Riddick Bowe, the World Boxing Organisation heavyweight champion, on Easter Saturday, 6 April - Sport - Independent.co.uk)
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links] Lennox Lewis is to meet Riddick Bowe, the World Boxing Organisation heavyweight champion, on Easter Saturday, 6 April - Sport - Independent.co.uk)
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[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links] Lennox Lewis is to meet Riddick Bowe, the World Boxing Organisation heavyweight champion, on Easter Saturday, 6 April - Sport - Independent.co.uk)


[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links] Lennox Lewis is to meet Riddick Bowe, the World Boxing Organisation heavyweight champion, on Easter Saturday, 6 April - Sport - Independent.co.uk)
[Only registered and activated users can see links] Upon ([Only registered and activated users can see links] Lennox Lewis is to meet Riddick Bowe, the World Boxing Organisation heavyweight champion, on Easter Saturday, 6 April - Sport - Independent.co.uk)
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links] Lennox Lewis is to meet Riddick Bowe, the World Boxing Organisation heavyweight champion, on Easter Saturday, 6 April - Sport - Independent.co.uk)
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links] Lennox Lewis is to meet Riddick Bowe, the World Boxing Organisation heavyweight champion, on Easter Saturday, 6 April - Sport - Independent.co.uk)


[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links] Lennox Lewis is to meet Riddick Bowe, the World Boxing Organisation heavyweight champion, on Easter Saturday, 6 April - Sport - Independent.co.uk)
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links] Lennox Lewis is to meet Riddick Bowe, the World Boxing Organisation heavyweight champion, on Easter Saturday, 6 April - Sport - Independent.co.uk)
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links] Lennox Lewis is to meet Riddick Bowe, the World Boxing Organisation heavyweight champion, on Easter Saturday, 6 April - Sport - Independent.co.uk)
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Boxing
Lennox Lewis is to meet Riddick Bowe, the World Organisation heavyweight champion, on Easter Saturday, 6 April, at a venue to be decided. Lewis' promoter, Panos Eliades, believes the contract could be finalised by the end of next week.
Neil Swain, the Welsh boxer, has lost his Commonwealth super-bantamweight title - four weeks after his last defeat in South Africa. The Commonwealth Council have declared the title vacant because the 24-year-old Swain, from Gilfach Goch, was beaten on points by the South African Anton Gilmore in a non-championship fight in Sun City on 4 November. Swain will still be a contender for the title and a return with Gilmore would be recognised as a championship bout.
Justo Sanchez, on the undercard of tonight's fight between Wayne McCullough and Johnny Bredhal in Belfast, has pulled out of his bout after he was mugged while jogging last night.
The World Association light-heavyweight championship fight between the champion Virgil Hill, of the United States, and Switzerland's Stefan Angehrn, scheduled to take place on 8 December in Zurich, has been cancelled because of insufficient funding.

[lefthook31]

Here is the article about the ordeal "according" to the WBC. Funny thing is the WBC wasnt the only belt at stake, Holyfield had all three. Bowe pulled out of the Ruddock fight to face Coetzer for the #1 WBA spot. Holyfield didnt want to fight Lewis because of his lack of interest and chose Bowe to make a bigger money fight. Its also interesting to note that Lennox Lewis could have never fought Tyson as the mandatory challenger because of his exclusive promotional ties with HBO. There is so much red tape because of promoters and contracts its impossible to know the the real deal.
Regarding the events of the last several months that forced Mike Tyson to relinquish the WBC heavyweight world title and the WBC to withdraw its recognition of him as champion, WBC president Jose Sulaiman issued this statement:

"The following is a brief report to put into perspective the recent years, and recent events, of the heavyweight division in the WBC.
"After Mike Tyson lost the championship to Buster Douglas in February, 1990, the WBC ordered a mandatory defense between the new champion and No. 1 ranked Evander Holyfield with the condition, due to the controversial circumstances of the Tyson vs Douglas fight, that the winner fight Tyson next. After nearly two years as the No. 1 contender without receiving an opportunity to fight for the title, Tyson signed to fight Holyfield, but the fight was cancelled when Tyson suffered a rib injury. Before they could fight, and while he was still the No. 1 ranked official challenger to the title, Tyson was imprisoned, and only then taken out of the WBC ratings.
"While he was incarcerated, the WBC ordered a title eliminator between No. 1 ranked Razor Ruddock and No. 2 ranked Riddick Bowe, which was accepted by both in writing. After making such commitment, Bowe decided to pull out of the agreement and instead fight Pierre Coetzer of South Africa. The WBC then ordered the eliminator to be between Ruddock and No. 3 ranked Lennox Lewis, with the winner to be the official challenger for the world championship; Lewis won the fight. Main Events, who had the promotional rights to Holyfield, informed the WBC that Holyfield would not fight Lewis because he did not have a marketable name, but would fight Bowe instead. The Holyfield vs Bowe fight was authorized by the WBC with the condition that the winner fight Lewis. Bowe won the title, but instead of honoring his written agreement to fight Lewis, he refused to pay the WBC sanctioning fee and threw the championship belt into a London waste basket.
"The WBC proclaimed Lewis the heavyweight champion of the world. His first defense was against mandatory challenger Tony Tucker, which earned him approximately $10 million, the largest purse of his career. He lost the title when he was knocked out by Oliver McCall in the second round in September, 1994. At the WBC convention in Sevilla in November, he requested an immediate rematch, which was denied. He was going to be rated No. 6 or 7, but was finally rated No. 2. An elimination bout against Lionel Butler was approved, to prove his merits after his dramatic knockout loss. In Sevilla, the WBC voted to allow champion McCall two voluntary title defenses, the first in January or February, the second in March or April. These dates were postponed, due to McCall's unavailability, to April and September, when he lost the title to Frank Bruno. Also in Sevilla, the WBC voted unanimously, excepting three abstentions, to approve Tyson, upon his release from prison, as the No. 1 ranked contender and official challenger, which was exactly his previous position. The WBC was criticized for this by some in the press in the United States and Great Britain. In the days preceding his fight with Butler, Lennox Lewis started a campaign of slanderous and offending statements against the WBC, and called the WBC officers 'racketeers and politicians.' Lewis went on to defeat Butler, and Tyson had two ten-round fights.
"At the 1995 WBC convention in Chiang Mai, Frank Bruno requested, in compliance with WBC rules, that his next defense be against No. 1 challenger Tyson. The WBC approved his request, with the winner of the fight commited to fight Lewis in or about September, 1996. In response to this WBC ruling, Lewis sued the WBC and Bruno in the High Court of England in order to stop the fight. The High Court dismissed Lewis' lawsuit against the WBC, and ordered Lewis to pay the WBC's and Bruno's legal costs in defending the lawsuit. Lewis' representatives then took their case to the county court in Passaic, New Jersey, seeking to enjoin the WBC from sanctioning the Tyson vs Bruno fight as a WBC championship event. On March 15, 1996, the county court judge declined to do so. Nevertheless, he ordered that Mike Tyson could not fight and Don King could not promote any championship fight that did not include Lennox Lewis. The judge ruled that the WBC could not declare the title vacant, or sanction any other heavyweight championship fight. In effect, the judge ruled that Tyson could have no other plans to continue his great boxing career except to reach an agreement with Lewis. (Ironically, the county court judge also ruled that the WBC and Bruno could not recover their legal costs incurred in the British litigation.) Tyson won the title from Bruno on March 16, and planned to next fight Bruce Seldon.
"Later, Seldon and his promoters filed a motion before the county court judge requesting permission to fight Tyson in accordance with the terms of a contract that been entered into by Tyson and Seldon prior to the court's May 15 ruling. Inexplicably, the county court judge refused to do so. In May, 1996, Tyson and Lewis entered into an agreement to settle the litigation pending in Passaic County. Under the agreement, Lewis agreed to accept $4 million to step aside and allow the Tyson vs Seldon fight, but Tyson had to relinquish the WBC title afterwards. The agreement also said that the WBC could not sanction the fight (I would like to note this greedy agreement, which has no reason or explanation). Tyson caught the flu and the fight was moved to September. The WBC signed the Lewis-Tyson agreement in the spirit of cooperation in order to solve this unbelieveable mess. Without being invited to participate in the decision, we signed the agreement which made us a great loser - we did not sanction the fight, and lost one of the greatest champions that the WBC has ever had, a real source of pride for us. The WBC has stood by Tyson throughout his career, as we have for all boxers, through all difficult situations.
"The WBC was informed later that promoter Don King and Lewis representative Panos Eliades had reached an agreement for the Tyson vs Lewis fight. The fight was to be held in March, 1997, and would have paid Lewis $15-18 million (which included the step-aside fee for the Seldon and Holyfield fights). We were also informed that this agreement could not be finalized because the HBO network had an exclusive promotional deal with Lewis, and would not accept the fight unless Lewis was to fight Riddick Bowe first, another fighter promoted exclusively by HBO, and fulfill other commitments.
"Consequently, the Tyson vs Seldon fight was held and the WBC was later informed by Tyson's attorneys that he would relinquish the WBC title, to our extreme disappointment and sadness. The WBC Board of Governors voted, very reluctantly, to vacate the heavyweight title. No one on the Board could accept or understand why Tyson's championship was lost on the desk of a judge rather than in the ring. The WBC will always profoundly suffer due to this decision, which we consider a miscarriage of justice and an insult to the sport of boxing.
"It's very ironic that while Lewis sought an opportunity to fight Tyson, and succeeded in forcing him to relinquish the title due a court's ruling, he apparently never had the ability to accept the fight because of his exclusive promotional agreement with HBO."
***** The purse offer for the vacant WBC heavyweight title fight between Lewis and McCall was held at the WBC offices in Mexico City on September 26, and was attended by representatives of the bidding promoters as well as a large number of reporters from different newspapers and news agencies.

Don King Productions, representated by attorney Alfonso Gonzalez Uribe, won with a bid of $9,152,990. Main Events, represented by Frank Maloney and Michael Koribianics, bid $6,151,000, and Cedric Kushner Promotions, by confidential fax, bid $5,206,000.
The winner of the fight, in accordance with WBC rules and regulations, must make his first defense against the WBC's No. 1 ranked official challenger, who will be designated at the upcoming convention in Buenos Aires. Upcoming Fights ([Only registered and activated users can see links])Current Champions ([Only registered and activated users can see links])America Online Newsletter ([Only registered and activated users can see links])Back to Main Page ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

[lefthook31]

More interesting stuff

Heavyweight champion Riddick Bowe will fight former heavyweight champion Evander Holyfield, at least in court.
Bowe, his manager Rock Newman and his promoter, Spencer Promotions Inc. filed a $25 million suit against Dan Duva and his company, Main Events, as well as manager Shelly Finkel and Holyfield. The 24-page complaint, filed yesterday in United States District Court in Manhattan charged Duva and Main Events with breach of contract, interference with prospective economic advantage and breach of fiduciary duty.
Newman accused Duva and Main Events of trying to coerce various boxing sanctioning bodies like the International Boxing Federation into stripping Bowe of his titles, keeping him from fighting Tommy Morrison for a purse Newman estimated at $30 million and forcing Bowe to fight either Michael Moorer or Holyfield, both promoted by Main Events, for smaller purses.
"They continue to manipulate in their own selfish, greedy interests," Newman said. "There is a conflict of interest here."
Since Bowe beat Holyfield last year and took the heavyweight title, Main Events was to co-promote three of Bowe's title fights and receive 22 percent of all promotional fees by a contract agreement.
But Newman claims Duva is not acting in good faith or in the best interests of Bowe.
Bowe's best interests, according to Newman, means fighting Morrison and Lennox Lewis, fighters not represented by Main Events or Duva.
A Bowe-Morrison or Bowe-Lewis fight would mean more public interest and more money, Newman said.
Duva dismissed the suit as negotiations ploy" to get him to renegotiate the terms of the Holyfield fight.
"We suspected from the beginning Rock Newman did not want to live up to the contract he made," said Duva.
Bowe said he would like to fight Holyfield again, but his top choices were Lewis and Morrison.
"It's a conspiracy," Bowe said. "They don't want us to get the recognition we deserve."

[Muchmoore]

How do you figure? It wasnt a box office between four fighters. Holyfield was the undisputed champion and Bowe the #1 contender. Ruddock and Lewis were fighting for the #1 contender spot, and mandated challenger for the WBC champion. I dont know about any signed contracts in place???

It wasn't truly a tournament, but the Ruddock-Lewis fight was for the right to fight the WBC champion who was the winner of Bowe-Holyfield. Bowe won, and then refused to fight Lewis.

As for Lewis-Byrd, Byrd was a complete non threat to Lewis. Byrd with his style simply can't beat Super Heavies with skills, watch him get dominated by Wlad and Vitali. Entirely different reason for Lewis not fighting Byrd and Bowe avoiding Lewis and fighting Dokes.

[lefthook31]

It wasn't truly a tournament, but the Ruddock-Lewis fight was for the right to fight the WBC champion who was the winner of Bowe-Holyfield. Bowe won, and then refused to fight Lewis.

As for Lewis-Byrd, Byrd was a complete non threat to Lewis. Byrd with his style simply can't beat Super Heavies with skills, watch him get dominated by Wlad and Vitali. Entirely different reason for Lewis not fighting Byrd and Bowe avoiding Lewis and fighting Dokes.
You cant just assume that he automatically wins. Thats like assuming Bowe would automatically lose to Lewis since Lewis beat him in the olympics, not taking into consideration that Bowe was trained his entire pro career by Eddie Futch and changed his fighting style.
Actually if you read the articles that I posted, it was Holyfield who didnt want to fight Lewis not Bowe. Bowe was supposed to fight Ruddock in the first place and opted for the #1 spot of the WBA by facing Coetzer. Holyfield than rejected Lewis because of lack of name recognition to fight Bowe. The WBC agreed to let that happen if the winner fought Lewis next.

[DamonD]

Lewis not fighting Byrd in '02, or Ruiz in '00 for that matter, doesn't really mean the same as Bowe not fighting Lewis. I'm not trying to have double standards, there are just certain things Lewis offered in '93 that those two didn't later on.

Byrd and Ruiz did not have an amateur knockout win over Lewis on the biggest amateur stage of them all. Byrd and Ruiz were not unbeaten. Byrd and Ruiz had not just knocked out a #1 contender and one of if not the most feared puncher in the whole division. Byrd and Ruiz did not offer that spectacle of a large challenger against the large champion. Byrd and Ruiz did not offer up the chance of a big knockout. Byrd and Ruiz did not have the unusual marketability of being a British fighter. Byrd and Ruiz didn't even have some kind of personal vendetta with Lewis.

I think a 37-year-old Lewis does have a struggle with Byrd actually, due to his declining movement. He may have toiled to get enough shots in to finally grind Byrd down, I think Byrd could've made the full 12 losing just to Lewis's heavier firepower and it would've been a pretty blah fight...a big letdown after the high of the Tyson win. But I think he still wins.

And Ruiz in '00 is just a horrible style match-up for Ruiz. Can't bumrush him, can't stay outside and outjab him, can't do the jab & grab as Lewis would lean all over him in the clinch and wear him down. Not good.

[lefthook31]

Lewis not fighting Byrd in '02, or Ruiz in '00 for that matter, doesn't really mean the same as Bowe not fighting Lewis. I'm not trying to have double standards, there are just certain things Lewis offered in '93 that those two didn't later on.

Byrd and Ruiz did not have an amateur knockout win over Lewis on the biggest amateur stage of them all. Byrd and Ruiz were not unbeaten. Byrd and Ruiz had not just knocked out a #1 contender and one of if not the most feared puncher in the whole division. Byrd and Ruiz did not offer that spectacle of a large challenger against the large champion. Byrd and Ruiz did not offer up the chance of a big knockout. Byrd and Ruiz did not have the unusual marketability of being a British fighter. Byrd and Ruiz didn't even have some kind of personal vendetta with Lewis.

I think a 37-year-old Lewis does have a struggle with Byrd actually, due to his declining movement. He may have toiled to get enough shots in to finally grind Byrd down, I think Byrd could've made the full 12 losing just to Lewis's heavier firepower and it would've been a pretty blah fight...a big letdown after the high of the Tyson win. But I think he still wins.

And Ruiz in '00 is just a horrible style match-up for Ruiz. Can't bumrush him, can't stay outside and outjab him, can't do the jab & grab as Lewis would lean all over him in the clinch and wear him down. Not good.
Thats fair to say, but let me ask you. Do you think the fight between Lewis and Bowe would have gotten bigger if Lewis had beaten Mcall? Bowe was very close to signing to fight Lewis after the Mcall fight.

[Bokaj]

Just watched Bowe-Golota II again. It was really sickening the punishment Bowe took. Don't know if I've ever seen anything like it. He was as tough as anyone to ever lace them up, that's for sure. But being that tough and that relatively easy to hit is a bad combination. A lot of him stayed in that ring.

[Cachibatches]

He chickened out, threw a belt in a trash can, and split a title taht Tyson and Holyfield worked so hard to keep unifed.

Besides Holyfield, name anyone he ever looked good agaisnt? Tubss beat him, and Golota lost twice but hurt him bad.

He is a piece of shit. Lower end of top 30.

[Muchmoore]

Just watched Bowe-Golota II again. It was really sickening the punishment Bowe took. Don't know if I've ever seen anything like it. He was as tough as anyone to ever lace them up, that's for sure. But being that tough and that relatively easy to hit is a bad combination. A lot of him stayed in that ring.

Yeah, it definitely took a lot to get Bowe out of there, which was bad for his health in the long run.

[Rattler]

Riddick Bowe, IMO, was an ATG talent... but that's not what makes a great fighter.

[fists of fury]

In short, he's not an ATG. Yes, he won his trilogy with Holyfield, but other than that his number of impressive wins are about 0. An ancient Tubbs gave him trouble and Golota used him as a punching bag. And if you want say he was way past it for the Golota fights, you might as well say he beat Holyfield because Holy fought with his head up his ass in the first fight and had hepatitis in the third. So anyway you twist it, his record just isn't that great.



This is my position in a nutshell.

He just didn't do enough to qualify as an ATG. It's really as simple as that.
Beating Holyfield twice was a fine accomplishment, but that alone just isn't enough.

I can remember the dismay from the media when he signed to fight Dokes, who was a complete shell at that point. The fight was predictably a mismatch.
Then, even worse, he fights Jesse Ferguson after that. One easy 'gimme' defense I can understand, but two? And one right after the other? His next fight was against Holy, a guy he had already beaten.
Bowe was hardly taking risks in there...

[DamonD]

And the Holyfield fight only happened due to HBO.

It's not so much that Bowe didn't want to fight Holy as he (or Newman) saw no point in it. He thought the 'gargoyle', his quote, was finished.

But HBO were unhappy with the response to (and quality of) the Dokes and Fergsuon fights so they wanted to push a name fighter in there. There was a lot of dough plus contractual rights put on the table and that worked. Bowe and Newman saw it as a big payday and an easy fight.

Remember that Holy had looked lacklustre against a safety-conscious Stewart in their rematch in mid-93. A bit of a similar case to the whole Czyz-Tyson situation in a way.