Pernell Whittaker - How do you beat him.

[GPater11093]

You can choose any LW ever.

Give me the strategy you would use to fight Pernell Whittaker.

Tough aint it

[TheStraightLeft]

All I can think of, off the top of my head, is throw a few head shots to set up body shots.

[GazOC]

Benny Leonard, off the back foot and make Pernell come to you.

Not guaranteed but its an idea......;O)

[GPater11093]

thts very specific mate thats generally a strategy you could use on any one

[GPater11093]

Benny Leonard, off the back foot and make Pernell come to you.

Not guaranteed but its an idea......;O)

yeh a possibility also Benny had a sharp right hand counter could pose Pernell some problems

[Sweet Pea]

All I can think of, off the top of my head, is throw a few head shots to set up body shots.

Wow, that was deep.

[TBooze]

You can choose any LW ever.

Give me the strategy you would use to fight Pernell Whittaker.

Tough aint it


Jose Luis Ramirez; the strategy being get your promoter to pay Mendoza (WBA El Presidente) to make sure that a Mexican unification fight happens with Chavez, by pressuring judges.:D

[GazOC]

Jose Luis Ramirez; the strategy being get your promoter to pay Mendoza (WBA El Presidente) to make sure that a Mexican unification fight happens with Chavez, by pressuring judges.:D

:lol::good

That was a real shocker!!!

[GPater11093]

TBooze great idea, and its proven to work

[lefthook31]

Tall quick guy who can fight good at range. I always thought Tito would have given Pea problems even in his prime, because of his height and his quick jab. Even though Tito was somewhat one dimensional the styles would have created a bad fight for Tito even in his prime.

[GPater11093]

so who would you choose at LW LH

[stevebhoy87]

Duran would be my pick

How would he do it, well with difficulty, 1st things 1st is you need to have an area where you are better than whitaker which isn't easy, he was a master at all ranges, however i'm sure we can all agree duran was better than whitaker on the inside if he could get there. Against duran whitaker i envisage would use a lot of lateral movement and fighting behind his jab.

So the 1st thing that would be needed would be to have someone who could get inside the jab, duran is the perfect candidate for the job, he can do this in quite a lot of different ways, his ability to feint to get inside is top notch but he also has another option open to him, his swarming sort of style he used so effctively to get inside buchanan, he also had the footspeed to be able to do so, he need to mix up the ways he was looking to come inside, so whitaker cannot get a read on him and begin to time his approaches ad counter him.

Once inside pea is no slouch, in fact he's one of the best inside fighters i've ever seen, but duran was better, he was nearly as proficient defensively and was stronger, also his work to the body and just general ability on the inside was better. For me duran has got the ability to take the fight inside often enough and do enough work whilst there to be able to take a tight UD or SD over pea, i can see an argument for pernell winning but i favour duran slightly

Another intersting fight IMO would be the young robinson who beat agnott v whitaker, i think he may be able to beat whitaker though i am not certain of it as robinson was still pretty green, but would have a lot of physical advantages for pea to overcome

[PowerPuncher]

Easy






































just buy off the judges

[curly]

swarm him like hell, with a lot of rough housing and cut off the ring.

Still probably won't work

[GazOC]

Could Hearns make 135??

;O)

[Flea Man]

Ummmm...........Duran on his best night MAY be able to win a decision.

[cotto20]

at 147 hearns! at 135 i dont know if any1 could be sweet pea!

[teeto]

Fake an injury and get Carlos Ortiz to replace you fully fit for the fight.

[teeto]

Ummmm...........Duran on his best night MAY be able to win a decision.
In all seriousness Whitaker and Duran are the only two at 135 i would likely think about picking over one another.

[GazOC]

I've always fancied Whittaker over Duran but that was a very convincing case SteveBhoy made!!!

[Flea Man]

In all seriousness Whitaker and Duran are the only two at 135 i would likely think about picking over one another.

I agree entirely. I honestly believe though that the fight would be a draw, with six rounds apiece.

Over 15, Duran. Not that I think Pea wouldn't do well over the distance, but that Duran would go fuckin insane by the end....maybe even a possible stoppage, and there's no way I'd pick anyone else between 135-140 to stop Pea, not even Pryor, Ortiz, Ike Williams, Hatton:lol: ANYONE) but I was rewatching some Duran last night......and recalled just how fast HE was, and so fuckin powerful.


I'd had a few but was seriously weighing up Duran vs Robinson for my no.1 P4P Post-War ATG list (My top 100) AND a possible matchup at 147.



Sugar Ray via points in the greatest fight of all time:good

[My2Sense]

Benny Leonard, off the back foot and make Pernell come to you.


Not only make him come to you, but throw the right hand from a variety of angles, so that he has trouble adjust-ing to it. Two fighters who gave Whitaker two of his tougher fights, McGirt(the first time) and Hurtado, both moved and threw a lot of lead right hands.

As far as a pressure fighter who might be able to beat Whitaker, I would probably favor Armstrong, but not too many others.

[TBooze]

I think the Tommy Hearns (GazOC) idea is spot on.

Now although not quite at Tommy's level, maybe style wise, Ike Williams is the man to get the job done.

He has the power and variety to beat Whitaker, it just depends if he fast enough.....

[teeto]

I think the Tommy Hearns (GazOC) idea is spot on.

Now although not quite at Tommy's level, maybe style wise, Ike Williams is the man to get the job done.

He has the power and variety to beat Whitaker, it just depends if he fast enough.....
I really think Whittaker would outbox Williams to be honest TB. But i respect your opinion as it is.

[sweet_scientist]

You can choose any LW ever.

Give me the strategy you would use to fight Pernell Whittaker.

Tough aint it

You make it a sparring session with Hector Camacho and you have redrooster confirm it via a boxing magazine he recalls reading 25 years after the fact. :D

[TBooze]

I really think Whittaker would outbox Williams to be honest TB. But i respect your opinion as it is.

I think you are probably right. But I think as well, let us see Pernell with 160 pro fights in his legs, ala Williams, then make a pick.....

[GazOC]

Does anyone think Arguello from around 1980 might be the man for the job? I suggested a 135lb Hearns because I think a combination of reach and a decent dig would be the way to go to beat Whittaker....maybe Alexis could pull it off?

[teeto]

I think you are probably right. But I think as well, let us see Pernell with 160 pro fights in his legs, ala Williams, then make a pick.....
You give me twists and turns i am not ready for my friend!!!

[teeto]

Does anyone think Arguello from around 1980 might be the man for the job? I suggested a 135lb Hearns because I think a combination of reach and a decent dig would be the way to go to beat Whittaker....maybe Alexis could pull it off?
I would pick Whitaker again personally, but he's as good a bet as they come. People can talk all day about Arguello not being able to time Pea, but a 135 pound Arguello is clearly some force of nature and difficult for any fighter to beat in his own right.

Still i'd pick Whitaker though.

[TBooze]

Does anyone think Arguello from around 1980 might be the man for the job? I suggested a 135lb Hearns because I think a combination of reach and a decent dig would be the way to go to beat Whittaker....maybe Alexis could pull it off?

Is Arguello fast enough at 135?

[GazOC]

Is Arguello fast enough at 135?

TBH I was half thinking of AA at 130 and giving up the weight to keep the speed.....

[My2Sense]

Duran would be my pick

How would he do it, well with difficulty, 1st things 1st is you need to have an area where you are better than whitaker which isn't easy, he was a master at all ranges, however i'm sure we can all agree duran was better than whitaker on the inside if he could get there. Against duran whitaker i envisage would use a lot of lateral movement and fighting behind his jab.

So the 1st thing that would be needed would be to have someone who could get inside the jab, duran is the perfect candidate for the job, he can do this in quite a lot of different ways, his ability to feint to get inside is top notch but he also has another option open to him, his swarming sort of style he used so effctively to get inside buchanan, he also had the footspeed to be able to do so, he need to mix up the ways he was looking to come inside, so whitaker cannot get a read on him and begin to time his approaches ad counter him.

Once inside pea is no slouch, in fact he's one of the best inside fighters i've ever seen, but duran was better, he was nearly as proficient defensively and was stronger, also his work to the body and just general ability on the inside was better. For me duran has got the ability to take the fight inside often enough and do enough work whilst there to be able to take a tight UD or SD over pea, i can see an argument for pernell winning but i favour duran slightly



I can see Duran possibly overtaking Whitaker with his power, speed, and swarming attack, but the thing about Duran is that we saw against Leonard and in other fights that he doesn't respond well to being frustrated and discouraged - and Whitaker is about as frustrating/discouraging a fighter as you can fight. Also, if they fight at 135, Whitaker could punch pretty good at the weight, and Duran was dropped a couple times by "sneak" punches at the weight, so that increases the likelihood that Whitaker could get Duran's respect and discourage him.

[Sweet Pea]

Tall quick guy who can fight good at range. I always thought Tito would have given Pea problems even in his prime, because of his height and his quick jab. Even though Tito was somewhat one dimensional the styles would have created a bad fight for Tito even in his prime.Tito is tailor-made for Pea.

[Sweet Pea]

Both Arguello and Williams get handily outboxed as well. Not good style matchups.

[teeto]

Tito is tailor-made for Pea.
Clearly, no answer for the mobility/ability in my book.

[Robbi]

I can see Duran possibly overtaking Whitaker with his power, speed, and swarming attack, but the thing about Duran is that we saw against Leonard and in other fights that he doesn't respond well to being frustrated and discouraged - and Whitaker is about as frustrating/discouraging a fighter as you can fight. Also, if they fight at 135, Whitaker could punch pretty good at the weight, and Duran was dropped a couple times by "sneak" punches at the weight, so that increases the likelihood that Whitaker could get Duran's respect and discourage him.

Don't worry about Whitaker's lack of power against Duran. He doesn't need it. His style and overall skill level would neutralize Duran. IMO, Duran isn't going to constantly steam forward until he catches Whitaker just because he has a fighter lacking power in front of him. It doesn't work like that. I would bet my life savings that Duran's punch out-put would be low due to sharing a ring with Whitaker. Duran would be made to think like never before.

[stevebhoy87]

I can see Duran possibly overtaking Whitaker with his power, speed, and swarming attack, but the thing about Duran is that we saw against Leonard and in other fights that he doesn't respond well to being frustrated and discouraged - and Whitaker is about as frustrating/discouraging a fighter as you can fight. Also, if they fight at 135, Whitaker could punch pretty good at the weight, and Duran was dropped a couple times by "sneak" punches at the weight, so that increases the likelihood that Whitaker could get Duran's respect and discourage him.

To be honest i doubt duran would be discouraged by a flash knockdown, look at him in the 2nd round against hearns after taking a frightful beating in the 1st he just thows himself forward for more in the 2nd. A little flash knockdown isn't going to stop him, also he would need to be careful coming in on whitaker at any point in the fight, if he continually rushes in he'll get countered to shit, but he has the ability to mix up the way he looks to get inside, whether that be by using his feints and footwork or by using the bullish fast moving swarming style, he would need to be versatile in his ways of cutting the distance to get inside but he has the ability to do so IMO.

The frustaton side he showed agains leonard in no mas of course comes into play here, duran could be pissed of if you didn't ingage him, however duran wasn't at his best at leonard 2, duran at his absolute best i envisage cutting the distance down far more effectively, i also don't see pea being as ultra defensive as leonard was in that fight and that will give duran the chance to get inside more often than he did against leonard.

[GPater11093]

Duran would be my pick

How would he do it, well with difficulty, 1st things 1st is you need to have an area where you are better than whitaker which isn't easy, he was a master at all ranges, however i'm sure we can all agree duran was better than whitaker on the inside if he could get there. Against duran whitaker i envisage would use a lot of lateral movement and fighting behind his jab.

So the 1st thing that would be needed would be to have someone who could get inside the jab, duran is the perfect candidate for the job, he can do this in quite a lot of different ways, his ability to feint to get inside is top notch but he also has another option open to him, his swarming sort of style he used so effctively to get inside buchanan, he also had the footspeed to be able to do so, he need to mix up the ways he was looking to come inside, so whitaker cannot get a read on him and begin to time his approaches ad counter him.

Once inside pea is no slouch, in fact he's one of the best inside fighters i've ever seen, but duran was better, he was nearly as proficient defensively and was stronger, also his work to the body and just general ability on the inside was better. For me duran has got the ability to take the fight inside often enough and do enough work whilst there to be able to take a tight UD or SD over pea, i can see an argument for pernell winning but i favour duran slightly

Another intersting fight IMO would be the young robinson who beat agnott v whitaker, i think he may be able to beat whitaker though i am not certain of it as robinson was still pretty green, but would have a lot of physical advantages for pea to overcome

I would pick Duran too, i think to stop Duran coming inside you need a good left hook as it is the only punch i can see he is open too as he attacks, but Whittaker could pivot away and land a straight left instead but for reasons outlined above i might pick Duran

I've always fancied Whittaker over Duran but that was a very convincing case SteveBhoy made!!!

he did didnt he

I think the Tommy Hearns (GazOC) idea is spot on.

Now although not quite at Tommy's level, maybe style wise, Ike Williams is the man to get the job done.

He has the power and variety to beat Whitaker, it just depends if he fast enough.....

I did think of him aswell i had four names i though of Benny leonard, Ike Williams, Alexis Arguello and Duran - Maybe Ortiz

You make it a sparring session with Hector Camacho and you have redrooster confirm it via a boxing magazine he recalls reading 25 years after the fact. :D

:good

Does anyone think Arguello from around 1980 might be the man for the job? I suggested a 135lb Hearns because I think a combination of reach and a decent dig would be the way to go to beat Whittaker....maybe Alexis could pull it off?

Again one guy i think might be able too

Both Arguello and Williams get handily outboxed as well. Not good style matchups.

could you explain why, i can see why for Arguello though.

[teeto]

GP, i can say why i would favour Whitaker over Williams. I just think he could drag him into a chessmatch and be the better man in it. Williams stood at range probing with a jab a lot, and if he caught you with a hard shot he could finish you like you were a piece of shit. So it's always possible because his hands are very fast, but i think Whittkaer's skillset at range could get him a decision there personally.

[GPater11093]

GP, i can say why i would favour Whitaker over Williams. I just think he could drag him into a chessmatch and be the better man in it. Williams stood at range probing with a jab a lot, and if he caught you with a hard shot he could finish you like you were a piece of shit. So it's always possible because his hands are very fast, but i think Whittkaer's skillset at range could get him a decision there personally.

Williams was one rough customer and might be able to catch Whittaker coming into his range with a good shot

What about Sandy Saddler hes pretty similar to Ike

[duranimal]

Jose Luis Ramirez; the strategy being get your promoter to pay Mendoza (WBA El Presidente) to make sure that a Mexican unification fight happens with Chavez, by pressuring judges.:D

Tried & Tested:yep Never fails:good Contact Top Rank & Don King Promotions 4 updates on future results:smoke

[Robbi]

Tried & Tested:yep Never fails:good Contact Top Rank & Don King Promotions 4 updates on future results:smoke

You been drinking the Panamanian jungle juice?

[duranimal]

You been drinking the Panamanian jungle juice?

How'd you Know:huh

I sold one ov those Duran/Buchanan press kits on ebay 4 £200 about 6 months ago, Quaility peace ov history, all hand typed:good

[Robbi]

How'd you Know:huh

I sold one ov those Duran/Buchanan press kits on ebay 4 £200 about 6 months ago, Quaility peace ov history, all hand typed:good

Never seen one before. Cheers anyway.

[smitty_son408]

Not only make him come to you, but throw the right hand from a variety of angles, so that he has trouble adjust-ing to it. Two fighters who gave Whitaker two of his tougher fights, McGirt(the first time) and Hurtado, both moved and threw a lot of lead right hands.

As far as a pressure fighter who might be able to beat Whitaker, I would probably favor Armstrong, but not too many others.

Mayweather Jr????:think

[Windigo]

I'd beat him the same way Chavez drew with him and De La Hoya beat him. Pay off the judges.

[BoppaZoo]

I think you need a fighter with talent but the trick would for this fighter you pick to have all these things.

He would need great hand speed.
He would need to have great Power.
He would need to have very very awesome footwork.
He would need to have the great ability to cut off the ring.
He would need to have a great output of punch's thrown and keep a great pace.

If you really watch you can see as Whitaker got older most notable against Tito he had weakness's.

I feel Manny Pacquiao at 135 would be a decent fight. Would he win not sure.
I feel Ike Williams is another at 135 that would have a decent chance.
And of course Roberto Duran is the other that would give Sweet Pea a hell of a fight.

At 147 its a differnent story.

Hank Armstrong would be a great opponent.
Tommie Hearns would be a great opponent.
But surely the one that stands out is Ray Leonard.

As for picking winners in all those fights.

Flip a coin.

[WhataRock]

I think the best way to beat him is about 2 years before you are set to fight him..buy a shit load of coke and leave it in his letterbox.

That should put things on a level playing field by fight time.

[BoppaZoo]

I think the best way to beat him is about 2 years before you are set to fight him..buy a shit load of coke and leave it in his letterbox.

That should put things on a level playing field by fight time.Or you could go with this great idea.:lol::lol::good Nice Rock.

[Sweet Pea]

If you really watch you can see as Whitaker got older most notable against Tito he had weakness's.
Which means absolutely nothing.

[TBomb 25]

Could Hearns make 135??

;O)No....Hearns nearly killed himself to make 147 to fight Leonard which actually cost him the fight down the strech,I have a good substatute for you Roger Mayweather he could hit him and hurt him.

[TBomb 25]

Hearns would kill him at 147,thats just bad matchup for sweetpea,but your gonna need someone thats hearns like,Roger Mayweather would be the man for the job,and the wild card would be Aaron Pryor,you need some pop in your shot to keep the Hawk off of you and Pernell does not have that,i think Aaron punishes him,I thinkRoger can get to him often and hurt him,and he catches him good he's out,im not sure he can hurt Mayweather the fighters that did take Mayweather out could lay bricks,but anyway those are the only choices i see.

[My2Sense]

No....Hearns nearly killed himself to make 147 to fight Leonard which actually cost him the fight down the strech,I have a good substatute for you Roger Mayweather he could hit him and hurt him.

Hearns would kill him at 147,thats just bad matchup for sweetpea,but your gonna need someone thats hearns like,Roger Mayweather would be the man for the job,and the wild card would be Aaron Pryor,you need some pop in your shot to keep the Hawk off of you and Pernell does not have that,i think Aaron punishes him,I thinkRoger can get to him often and hurt him,and he catches him good he's out,im not sure he can hurt Mayweather the fighters that did take Mayweather out could lay bricks,but anyway those are the only choices i see.

Whitaker already whupped Mayweather, when Pea only had about 10 fights and Mayweather was already an experienced ex-champion.

[TBomb 25]

Whitaker already Mayweather, and decisively.Yeah but knowwhere near a prime R.Mayweather,it would have been totally different,that was kinda like when Holmes beat Ali. both were way way past their primes.

[My2Sense]

Yeah but knowwhere near a prime R.Mayweather,it would have been totally different,that was kinda like when Holmes beat Ali. both were way way past their primes.

It was nothing like Ali against Holmes; Mayweather was only 25 and still a top ranked contender, later to become a champion again.

[TBomb 25]

It was nothing like Ali against Holmes; Mayweather was only 25 and still a top ranked contender, later to become a champion again. Correction Mayweather was 34 and had been in wars in the 80's and early 90's this fight was in 1995 what the hell are you talking about? Even then Mayweather had him down and hurt on several occations and he was landing the jab at will a Prime Mayweather would have stopped him at 135.

[Flea Man]

even i would pick pea to whitewash alexis on the cards.he is all wrong for arguello.

[Flea Man]

roger was 26 it was in 1987 you moron

[TBomb 25]

even i would pick pea to whitewash alexis on the cards.he is all wrong for arguello.I disagree i think Alexis had a chance his hands were quicker than people gave him credit for,Pryor would be to much for Whitaker,Johnny Bumphus would be another canidate and Howard Davis as well.

[TBomb 25]

roger was 26 it was in 1987 you moronI got the dates mixed up,but watch the moron sh!t fag or you can be on the canvas.

[the cobra]

Originally posted by TBomb 25
Correction Mayweather was 34 and had been in wars in the 80's and early 90's this fight was in 1995 what the hell are you talking about? Even then Mayweather had him down and hurt on several occations and he was landing the jab at will a Prime Mayweather would have stopped him at 135.
The fight was in 1987, and Mayweather was in his 20's and in his prime. Whitaker had about 10 fights and still easily won. You don't know what you're talking about.

[TBomb 25]

The fight was in 1987, and Mayweather was in his 20's and in his prime. Whitaker had about 10 fights and still easily won. You don't know what you're talking about.I do know what im talking about i just got the dates mixed up,that fight was pretty close in my eyes.

[Flea Man]

I do know what im talking about i just got the dates mixed up,that fight was pretty close in my eyes.

fair enough. have you served your apprenticeship in the general forum yet?:lol::lol::lol:

[the cobra]

Originally posted by TBomb 25
I do know what im talking about i just got the dates mixed up,that fight was pretty close in my eyes.
They traded knockdowns, other than that, it wasn't very close. And because Mayweather was pretty much in his prime and Whitaker was just starting his career, there's no logical reason to pick Roger over a prime Whitaker at 135.

For the topic of the thread, the only guy I might favor over peak Whitaker at 135 is Duran. I agree for the most part with Stevebhoy87's view on that match-up, although it's a fight Whitaker could win. There are others who have a solid chance of beating him, none that I favor though.

[laxpdx]

If Duran was inspired like he was in Montreal, and relentlessly crowded Pea, cut off the ring and forced him to brawl.... If Ray was taken out of his gameplan, would Pea be also? How would he respond?

[Flea Man]

pea was fantastic at landing on the inside without being hit. he would throw and get out.it's whether he would slow down or not after duran pressurises him that is the deciding factor on whether duran gets to him imo.......too hard 2 pick,two fighters i really admire:good

[TBomb 25]

fair enough. have you served your apprenticeship in the general forum yet?:lol::lol::lol: Ha...ha...but im not your normal rookie,I just re watched the fight it wasnt as close as thought it was,but i did see what could be done against Sweet Pea,Mayweather should have stayed more commited to boxing outside using his reach,that said he didnt get the job done,my candates are Pryor,Mosley,Johnny Bumphus,Auguello,and Howard Davis,so break these down.

[Mr Butt]

i think duran would beat whitaker but duran would have to be at his very best to do so .pryor vs whitaker would be a great fight but i think whitaker would win a ud

[Flea Man]

Ha...ha...but im not your normal rookie,I just re watched the fight it wasnt as close as thought it was,but i did see what could be done against Sweet Pea,Mayweather should have stayed more commited to boxing outside using his reach,that said he didnt get the job done,my candates are Pryor,Mosley,JohnnyaBumphus,Auguello,and Howard Davis,so break these down.arguello is my hero but pea is the worst fighter out there for him. i feel he was at hispeak at 130, and i feel he lacked the requisite handspeed to time a fighter of pea's elusiveness.
mosley at 135 lacks a deep resume. pea is superior in every department bar power, but would outbox shane fairly easily in my opinion. i won't even comment on the other two. bumphus???pernell was a fa r more brutal finisher than people give him credit for, he puts paid that bumphus never reaches honeyghan and doesn't need to rush him in his corner to do it :good

[red cobra]

Benny Leonard, off the back foot and make Pernell come to you.

Not guaranteed but its an idea......;O)
Yes, the old trick Willie Pastrano pulled on Harold Johnson in '63 when he lifted the title from Harold. Make the guy who's the counterpuncher do the leading...make him come to you and make him leave his "comfort zone" so to speak. That's a brilliant tactic, by the way, and it sure worked for Pastrano. That's the way I would devise to fight Pernell, but you have to be somewhat quick of hand and foot yourself for that to pull it off well.

[teeto]

Williams was one rough customer and might be able to catch Whittaker coming into his range with a good shot

What about Sandy Saddler hes pretty similar to Ike
Oh sorry, well i would still see it the same way as with Williams maybe, but even against a bigger man, if Sandy Saddler has a man in front of him in the pocket, he just fouls you, grabs you and smashes you till you sleep (kidding), but really, Whitaker would do well to move against him.

[lolb]

Its difficult but if you could get someone to nail his feet to the floor you might have a chance. Either that or a mad man like Aaron Pryer to drink some juice and steam into him.

[lolb]

I've always thought that Duran would beat Whitaker but the more I think of it. I'm finding it difficult to see how. It's interesting reading the comments on here.

[teeto]

I've always thought that Duran would beat Whitaker but the more I think of it. I'm finding it difficult to see how. It's interesting reading the comments on here.
I haven't talked much on the Duran-Whitaker potential outcome on this thread, but we have done a lot in the past on here. There's a pretty much split opinion on this board as to who to takes it, and rightfully so in my opinion. Roberto Duran is my favourite fighter of all-time, but i wanted to make this thread about Pernell Whitaker, the fact that many have opted to involve Duran in this debate without my provoking them is testament to how great he is in people's minds i think.

I'll just leave it at what i said before, they are likely the only two i would pick over one another at 135 pounds, maybe.

[teeto]

Shit i'm cracking up, i thought this was the other Whitaker thread (the one i started).

[Flea Man]

Shit i'm cracking up, i thought this was the other Whitaker thread (the one i started).

:lol:

[teeto]

:lol:
Haha, im losing it Flea!

[Flea Man]

Haha, im losing it Flea!

Losing it? You've fuckin lost it pal:deal:lol:



Seriously been leaning towards Duran stoppage lately................dunno why just a feeling........ARGH! Surely the most frustrating fantasy matchup ever, I'd have to go for Draw!

[teeto]

Losing it? You've fuckin lost it pal:deal:lol:



Seriously been leaning towards Duran stoppage lately................dunno why just a feeling........ARGH! Surely the most frustrating fantasy matchup ever, I'd have to go for Draw!
The skillset of both men is immense Flea. I just maxed myself out on the Zarate thread, think i might go for a nap, it's Sunday!

[Sweet Pea]

Correction Mayweather was 34 and had been in wars in the 80's and early 90's this fight was in 1995 what the hell are you talking about? Even then Mayweather had him down and hurt on several occations and he was landing the jab at will a Prime Mayweather would have stopped him at 135.
No, actually he was 25, in his prime and the fight occured in 1986 you stupid fucking cunt. And Mayweather had him down once, while Pea had him hurt on several occasions, and landed the jab far more often. I think what this all comes down to is that you're a retarded monkey without the faintest idea of anything he's talking about. Fuck off.

[Flea Man]

No, actually he was 25, in his prime and the fight occured in 1986 you stupid fucking cunt. And Mayweather had him down once, while Pea had him hurt on several occasions, and landed the jab far more often. I think what this all comes down to is that you're a retarded monkey without the faintest idea of anything he's talking about. Fuck off.

He's started again :lol::good:rofl

[Robbi]

No, actually he was 25, in his prime and the fight occured in 1986 you stupid fucking cunt. And Mayweather had him down once, while Pea had him hurt on several occasions, and landed the jab far more often. I think what this all comes down to is that you're a retarded monkey without the faintest idea of anything he's talking about. Fuck off.

Steady now. This is where you let yourself down as a poster.

[Flea Man]

Steady now. This is where you let yourself down as a poster.

True in a way but he posts a lot of good stuff and it's almost hilarious when he does put these people down, don't ya think?

[Sweet Pea]

Steady now. This is where you let yourself down as a poster.
I couldn't care less, to be honest. I like this place, but I don't take it quite as seriously as I used to. That guy was a troll and needed to be put in his place. I'm not gonna sugar-coat anything with someone like that.

[teeto]

Steady now. This is where you let yourself down as a poster.
I'd tell you have a really great avatar if i knew you wouldn't get big headed. Sou your avatar is shit!

[Vantage_West]

i was watching on youtube diosbelys actually outhustle pernell pretty easily. the hieght the combinations and movement for when p came foreward.


i dont think it's a incredibly tall order...MAD tough cuz pernell cameback and dealt a serious beating but still. it is possible

[Flea Man]

After much deliberation I think Pea WOULD squeek out a decision against Duran. I don't believe that Duran could stop Pea........AARGGHH!!!!


Need......more..........footage.....maybe then.........I can come to some kind of conclusion :good :rofl

[teeto]

i was watching on youtube diosbelys actually outhustle pernell pretty easily. the hieght the combinations and movement for when p came foreward.
Did you see the part where he got his face smashed in?

(kidding)

[Robbi]

True in a way but he posts a lot of good stuff and it's almost hilarious when he does put these people down, don't ya think?

It's a weakness to abuse someone because you disagree with their opinion. No matter how much nonsense you think the person has posted. I think so anyway. Pea clearly showed within his reply that he wasn't a happy man. Anyway, no hard feelings at all.

[Flea Man]

It's a weakness to abuse someone because you disagree with their opinion. No matter how much nonsense you think the person has posted. I think so anyway. Pea clearly showed within his reply that he wasn't a happy man. Anyway, no hard feelings at all.

Everyone knows your sound Robbi, I'm sure Pea wouldn't have taken it the wrong way :good

[Robbi]

Everyone knows your sound Robbi, I'm sure Pea wouldn't have taken it the wrong way :good

I'm sound? Cheers. Me and Pea are on a good level with each other. No problems there at all.

[Flea Man]

I'm sound? Cheers. Me and Pea are on a good level with each other. No problems there at all.

yeah, you're alright mate :lol: you must cringe when you see the things I say to Asero then!

Wnder what you made of Olu G Rotimi's rant against me (later apoligised but possibly because he was outnumbered lol)

[Sweet Pea]

i was watching on youtube diosbelys actually outhustle pernell pretty easily. the hieght the combinations and movement for when p came foreward.


i dont think it's a incredibly tall order...MAD tough cuz pernell cameback and dealt a serious beating but still. it is possibleWe're talking about a prime Whitaker obviously.

[Bill Butcher]

You`d have to be very good at cutting off the ring, decent power, excellent stamina & be mentally strong because Pea WILL frustrate you at times in there no matter how well you are fighting, a decent bob & weave type defence & an ability to go to the body & head regularly would be vital, you`d have to be able to handle yourself on the outside at least because Pea will keep you there at times but really you are looking to back him up as much as possible & make him fight inside were you can outwork him... Whitaker is a very good infighter also but if you can outwork him & just dont let up, keep on top of him & be calculating when cutting the ring off then thats your best bet IMO.

The man I nominate to pull off this task is Henry Armstrong, tho I think Duran & Chavez might do it also, Duran being favourite to do it & JCC being more 50/50.

Anyway, I nominate Armstrong as the man to beat Whitaker.

[Flea Man]

JCC Prime and Pea prime at 135 would even itself out IMO, maybe slightly closer (though the 1st fight was very competitive) but I think Pea would win a landslide, i.e a draw :rofl

[My2Sense]

Correction Mayweather was 34 and had been in wars in the 80's and early 90's this fight was in 1995 what the hell are you talking about?

You gotta be fuckin kidding me... :roll::patsch

[Flea Man]

You gotta be fuckin kidding me... :roll::patsch

he's already been terrorised :lol:

[GPater11093]

so we have

Benny Leonard - drawing Whittaker in

Duran - cutting of the ring and 'fighting' Whittaker

can any other LW do it and whats there strategy

[divac]

Provide alot of skillful pressure and go to the body......the safety first way that Pernell fights, you dont beat him, he beats himself with his cautious approach.....the Chavez and DLH fights are proof of it!

[Robbi]

Provide alot of skillful pressure and go to the body......the safety first way that Pernell fights, you dont beat him, he beats himself with his cautious approach.....the Chavez and DLH fights are proof of it!

:think

[Manassa]

At lightweight? There's only a handful who'd stand a significant chance, let alone pull it off.

It's not to do with Whitaker's strength, stamina, speed, power or durability, all of which he had, but not particularly in abundance. Yes, he was a natural fighter, but he was also such a great visionary that he could read his opponents and adapt to whatever they conjured up as a gameplan (I say conjured to imply 'thrown together' - as Whitaker was hard to read himself). The simpler and more textbook a fighter was, the more decisive Whitaker would beat him.

That's why I think the two fighters best designed to beat Whitaker are Carlos Ortiz, and in particular, Roberto Duran. Both had multiple forms of attack and Duran especially was quick, defensively brilliant and every bit as clever. I don't think any fighter could fight with a single gameplan and stick with it (like Henry Armstrong might do) without losing on points to Whitaker. You'd have to mix it up.

[Rock0052]

Yes, the old trick Willie Pastrano pulled on Harold Johnson in '63 when he lifted the title from Harold. Make the guy who's the counterpuncher do the leading...make him come to you and make him leave his "comfort zone" so to speak. That's a brilliant tactic, by the way, and it sure worked for Pastrano. That's the way I would devise to fight Pernell, but you have to be somewhat quick of hand and foot yourself for that to pull it off well.

If anyone had the boxing brain, skill level, and physical tools to implement that kind of gameplan and stick to it, Leonard would've been the one. That's a fight I'd have loved to see.

[ripcity]

I have not read all the responses so I don't know if anyone brought this up yet, but I think the answer is obivious. Tie his shoelaces toegeather.

I think the key is to be able to impose your will on him. Make him come to you. I beleve that Whitaker would prefer to have his opoent come to him so he could counter punch. This is of course easier said than done. I think Benny Leonard who may have been the best at imposing his will on an oponent could pul it off. I think Floyd Mayweather Jr. who likes to go to the ropes and potshot opoents could also pull it off as well. I would favor Benny Leonard but not Mayweather Jr.
I think Tommy Hearns has a chance due to his physcial advantages and punching power but he has to use those advantages properly. Stay on the out side. Stick and move. I think both Sugar Ray's have a chance. I think they were both faster than him but I think they would both press the fight espicily Robinson. I can kind of see Leonard fighting off the back foot, and if he dose he coukd very well win. Roberto Duran has very good boxing skills but they are nowhere near Whitaker's. Duran is not out boxing Whitaker. If Duran tries for the knock out Whitaker dose to Duran what he did to Julio Ceaser Chavez.

[Sweet Pea]

At lightweight? There's only a handful who'd stand a significant chance, let alone pull it off.

It's not to do with Whitaker's strength, stamina, speed, power or durability, all of which he had, but not particularly in abundance. Yes, he was a natural fighter, but he was also such a great visionary that he could read his opponents and adapt to whatever they conjured up as a gameplan (I say conjured to imply 'thrown together' - as Whitaker was hard to read himself). The simpler and more textbook a fighter was, the more decisive Whitaker would beat him.

That's why I think the two fighters best designed to beat Whitaker are Carlos Ortiz, and in particular, Roberto Duran. Both had multiple forms of attack and Duran especially was quick, defensively brilliant and every bit as clever. I don't think any fighter could fight with a single gameplan and stick with it (like Henry Armstrong might do) without losing on points to Whitaker. You'd have to mix it up.
Fuckin' A! I've always said you were one of the best posters/writers when you actually gave enough of a fuck to put in the effort.

[Morrissey]

Would Mosley give him fits there?

How about JMM (at 135 he looks comfortable as well)?

[sweet_scientist]

Would Mosley give him fits there?

How about JMM (at 135 he looks comfortable as well)?

Marquez would win about 4 or 5 fifteen second stretches throughout the fight.

[Flea Man]

Ortiz would have a chance. A GOOD chance.

[teeto]

Of course i've always said Roberto Duran and Whittaker are in my opinion the two best fighters in head to head terms (regardless of a styles match-up) at the weight. The only other lightweight i've ever tipped for a win over Pernell Whittaker is Carlos Ortiz, and i'm very glad the great poster that is Manassa mentioned him also.

Ortiz is stylistically complete, multi-dimensional, but that alone never qualifies one to even be considered for a win over Pernell Whitaker. It depends how adept Ortiz is in these various areas of the game, and for me he's one of the best. He can stay on the outside, he can step in and potshot with a one two or a right hand to perfection, why that is a plus here is because it means he doesn't put himself in excessive danger of being countered. Whitaker is possibly even more skilled than Ortiz on the outside, but Ortiz can maintain distance and that might be important here. The fight will without doubt be taken to the trenches, both men enjoy setting up office there, and whoever is not getting the better of the boxing 'chess-match' will likely initiate combat in these quarters. As great as Pernell Whitaker's inside game is (and in an overall sense), i don't mean this disrespectful, as i clearly rate Pernell as possibly the best fighter ever, but what's he going to do, outfight Carlos Ortiz? Pernell would be wiser to try and win the chess-match and keep it there in my opinion.

The Duran-Whitaker proposition is still the hardest to split for me though. I don't think Whitaker has to stay on the outside as much as everyone else thinks, when Duran gets close, he can flurry-counter and slide off, turning his man is more essential here than keeping the focus on maintaing distance here. If anyone knows Duran, they know that his traditionally used method of cutting off the ring is not in the conventional sense. His most trusted method is simply via maybe the greatest straight right hand launched from distance of all time. Once that punch lands, what follows is something i can only imagine would be not too dissimilar to a whirlwind (with bricks flying around it). And that's why i feel backing up is not an option, but turning him is, though a ridiculously difficult ideal t bring to fruition, Pernell may have the ability. Him if anyone i'd think. One thing i'm almost shocked that noone has mentioned is one of the most basic of all tools that any young fighter is taught to use against a southpaw stylist- that already mentioned right hand, copule it with Duran's defensive capabilities to slip a jab and we have more of a contest than some (and to my disbelief) assume.

I sit on the fence, two of the finest skillsets my eyes have had the privelege of glaring upon.

[GDG]

I don't personally think anyone could!! If I had to put money on someone it would be Ortiz...but not with any real confidence.

A name that hasn't been mentioned is DLH. Although he struggled against a past prime Pea, that fight was his 1st above 140. He was huge at 135...call me crazy but I'd give him a chance!!!

[teeto]

call me crazy

Is this offer still open?

(haha, kidding)

[GDG]

Is this offer still open?

(haha, kidding)


Don't worry I know how silly it sounds - and I'm not a great Oscar fan!! But when I play the fight out in my head it's always a tough night for Pea!!!

[teeto]

Don't worry I know how silly it sounds - and I'm not a great Oscar fan!! But when I play the fight out in my head it's always a tough night for Pea!!!
Probably might be, Oscar was explosive at 135, but i just think that explosiveness won't get the job done against him. But it's a call worth considering.

[Manassa]

Fuckin' A! I've always said you were one of the best posters/writers when you actually gave enough of a fuck to put in the effort.

:lol:

[Robbi]

:lol:

C'mon now. Get yourself involved more, Manassa.

[teeto]

C'mon now. Get yourself involved more, Manassa.
Well yeah, i asked him to post on my Whitaker thread ages ago. But there's fuck all left to say now!
-----------------------------------------------------------

My back's against the wall isn't it Robbi and you know it. Great avatar!

[Robbi]

:lol:

A quick note on Duran-Whitaker. What version of Duran would you choose with the best chance of beating Whitaker. The early 70's version who was firece and consistently came forward or the late 70's one at lightweight who was a bit more reserved and better defensively?

[teeto]

A quick note on Duran-Whitaker. What version of Duran would you choose with the best chance of beating Whitaker. The early 70's version who was firece and consistently came forward or the late 70's one at lightweight who was a bit more reserved and better defensively?
Maybe the right answer is the one who beat Buchanan, but i like the one from the rear end of the lightweight campaign for some reason. I think that right hand is more honed there. But maybe the earlier one was simply a force of nature and should be favoured, not so sure though against Whitaker.

I know it wasn't addressed to me sorry.

[enquirer]

Terrible tim style,With-a-spoon...

[Robbi]

Fuckin' A! I've always said you were one of the best posters/writers when you actually gave enough of a fuck to put in the effort.

He prefers to put in the effort of being a sensitive moron who's disliked by many.

[red cobra]

Of course i've always said Roberto Duran and Whittaker are in my opinion the two best fighters in head to head terms (regardless of a styles match-up) at the weight. The only other lightweight i've ever tipped for a win over Pernell Whittaker is Carlos Ortiz, and i'm very glad the great poster that is Manassa mentioned him also.

Ortiz is stylistically complete, multi-dimensional, but that alone never qualifies one to even be considered for a win over Pernell Whitaker. It depends how adept Ortiz is in these various areas of the game, and for me he's one of the best. He can stay on the outside, he can step in and potshot with a one two or a right hand to perfection, why that is a plus here is because it means he doesn't put himself in excessive danger of being countered. Whitaker is possibly even more skilled than Ortiz on the outside, but Ortiz can maintain distance and that might be important here. The fight will without doubt be taken to the trenches, both men enjoy setting up office there, and whoever is not getting the better of the boxing 'chess-match' will likely initiate combat in these quarters. As great as Pernell Whitaker's inside game is (and in an overall sense), i don't mean this disrespectful, as i clearly rate Pernell as possibly the best fighter ever, but what's he going to do, outfight Carlos Ortiz? Pernell would be wiser to try and win the chess-match and keep it there in my opinion.

The Duran-Whitaker proposition is still the hardest to split for me though. I don't think Whitaker has to stay on the outside as much as everyone else thinks, when Duran gets close, he can flurry-counter and slide off, turning his man is more essential here than keeping the focus on maintaing distance here. If anyone knows Duran, they know that his traditionally used method of cutting off the ring is not in the conventional sense. His most trusted method is simply via maybe the greatest straight right hand launched from distance of all time. Once that punch lands, what follows is something i can only imagine would be not too dissimilar to a whirlwind (with bricks flying around it). And that's why i feel backing up is not an option, but turning him is, though a ridiculously difficult ideal t bring to fruition, Pernell may have the ability. Him if anyone i'd think. One thing i'm almost shocked that noone has mentioned is one of the most basic of all tools that any young fighter is taught to use against a southpaw stylist- that already mentioned right hand, copule it with Duran's defensive capabilities to slip a jab and we have more of a contest than some (and to my disbelief) assume.

I sit on the fence, two of the finest skillsets my eyes have had the privelege of glaring upon.
Ortiz could do it if anybody could..using that "come to me style" that's been mentioned.

[red cobra]

Ortiz used brains and strategic ability to win the lightweighty crown from Joe Brown...somewhat like Pastrano's strategy against Johnson...he was capable of fighting a cerebral type of fight.

[Manassa]

He prefers to put in the effort of being a sensitive moron who's disliked by many.

This is what it is then, yeah? Going to pop up after every one of my posts making comeback quips? I said you're a fucking weirdo, deal with it.

P.S. - on an internet forum, quite frankly, I could not give a shit if I'm disliked by many :huh

[Bill Butcher]

Correction Mayweather was 34 and had been in wars in the 80's and early 90's this fight was in 1995 what the hell are you talking about? Even then Mayweather had him down and hurt on several occations and he was landing the jab at will a Prime Mayweather would have stopped him at 135.

WTF is going on here ? :huh

Is this a joke ?

[Robbi]

This is what it is then, yeah? Going to pop up after every one of my posts making comeback quips? I said you're a fucking weirdo, deal with it.

P.S. - on an internet forum, quite frankly, I could not give a shit if I'm disliked by many :huh

Holy shit................................

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Bill Butcher]

I have not read all the responses so I don't know if anyone brought this up yet, but I think the answer is obivious. Tie his shoelaces toegeather.

I think the key is to be able to impose your will on him. Make him come to you. I beleve that Whitaker would prefer to have his opoent come to him so he could counter punch. This is of course easier said than done. I think Benny Leonard who may have been the best at imposing his will on an oponent could pul it off. I think Floyd Mayweather Jr. who likes to go to the ropes and potshot opoents could also pull it off as well. I would favor Benny Leonard but not Mayweather Jr.
I think Tommy Hearns has a chance due to his physcial advantages and punching power but he has to use those advantages properly. Stay on the out side. Stick and move. I think both Sugar Ray's have a chance. I think they were both faster than him but I think they would both press the fight espicily Robinson. I can kind of see Leonard fighting off the back foot, and if he dose he coukd very well win. Roberto Duran has very good boxing skills but they are nowhere near Whitaker's. Duran is not out boxing Whitaker. If Duran tries for the knock out Whitaker dose to Duran what he did to Julio Ceaser Chavez.

Lets not get crazy here, Hearns & the 2 Sugar Ray`s would fuck Whitaker up, no way any of them lose to Whitaker.... + prime Pea was at 135 & these guys were 147 lbers around their best days (Hearns maybe 154), lets stick to LWTs, you have several candidates, Duran, Chavez, Armstrong, Mayweather, Pryor.... all those guys stand a great chance at 135 IMO, a really good chance... but I wouldnt be betting big either way, Pea was one of the greats without doubt.

[Bill Butcher]

A quick note on Duran-Whitaker. What version of Duran would you choose with the best chance of beating Whitaker. The early 70's version who was firece and consistently came forward or the late 70's one at lightweight who was a bit more reserved and better defensively?

The Duran of the 3rd Dejesus fight beats any 135 version of Whitaker IMO, not an easy fight obviously but THAT Duran was a machine, almost perfect.

[Manassa]

Holy shit................................

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

AsI said, weirdo.

[Robbi]

AsI said, weirdo.

All you're worth is a chuckle.

[teeto]

Ortiz could do it if anybody could..using that "come to me style" that's been mentioned.
Thanks for the insight there RC

[GPater11093]

A quick note on Duran-Whitaker. What version of Duran would you choose with the best chance of beating Whitaker. The early 70's version who was firece and consistently came forward or the late 70's one at lightweight who was a bit more reserved and better defensively?

i think the one at the tail end of his light weight days has the best chance. Duran had the better skill set then and had different modes of attack. He was more polished and better defensivly and capable of the relentlessness but was cleverer in it and as i said used different forms of attacking.

Maybe the right answer is the one who beat Buchanan, but i like the one from the rear end of the lightweight campaign for some reason. I think that right hand is more honed there. But maybe the earlier one was simply a force of nature and should be favoured, not so sure though against Whitaker.

I know it wasn't addressed to me sorry.

Duran became more intelligent later on could intelligent pressure help Duran here more than his all out (albeit clever but not as clever) style

also when did Robbi and Manassa hate each other

[teeto]

i think the one at the tail end of his light weight days has the best chance. Duran had the better skill set then and had different modes of attack. He was more polished and better defensivly and capable of the relentlessness but was cleverer in it and as i said used different forms of attacking.



Duran became more intelligent later on could intelligent pressure help Duran here more than his all out (albeit clever but not as clever) style

also when did Robbi and Manassa hate each other
I think it's a feud that's gone on for a long time GP. Yeah it's just a thought of mine that the 'better' Duran of the end of the lightweight tenure is in better stead here. Although i think most will like the all out swarming one, that's not my line of thinking here, and i can see you agree as well.

But to be honest i think we're splitting hairs, we should just call it 'prime Duran', because that Duran that we are both picking here can do all of the stuff we are talking about here, that's just him at his best.

[Stonehands89]

There are two I'd favor to beat LW Whitaker.

Duran. This debate (Duran-Whitaker) has been beaten to death, dug up, beaten again, burned, kicked around, and dismembered enough. Duran is favored in this corner because of his intelligent fire, his "backalley baroque" style that I'd count on to keep Pernell on the defensive a bit too much to win. I don't believe that any man can be favored to beat prime Duran without guns and Whitaker doesn't have the firepower to keep Duran at bay. He'd make him look bad at times, but Duran could be counted on to mix his attack and beat Pernell ...on points


Armstrong. He is more one-dimensional than Duran, but that dimension was hell on wheels. It was also more of a multi-facetted attack than acknowledged today. Henry wasn't a face-first Mexican -he could be elusive while he's mass murdering your ribs. Pernell is one of those fighters who look extraordinary when the other guy is cooperative; that is, when the other guy is fighting him like he'd fight an ordinary boxer. Floyd Mayweather Jr is another example. Castillo I, which I have as a loss for Floyd, demonstrated how you deal with a stylist like Floyd. Armstrong would, in my opinion, demonstrate how you deal with a defensive savant like Pernell. In sum, don't let him breath. Rembrandt can't paint in an earthquake. Armstrong did this right, and had great skill and experience behind him.

....
That being said, I'd favor no one else to beat him, at least no one that I can think of right now. Not Chavez, not Ortiz, not Arguello, not Buchanan, not the Great Bennah.

[teeto]

Rembrandt can't paint in an earthquake. .

:lol::lol:

[GPater11093]

I think it's a feud that's gone on for a long time GP. Yeah it's just a thought of mine that the 'better' Duran of the end of the lightweight tenure is in better stead here. Although i think most will like the all out swarming one, that's not my line of thinking here, and i can see you agree as well.

But to be honest i think we're splitting hairs, we should just call it 'prime Duran', because that Duran that we are both picking here can do all of the stuff we are talking about here, that's just him at his best.

Yeh it is close but id pick a prime Whittaker over the Duran who beat Buchanan but id pick the Duran of DEJesus 3 to win.

There are two I'd favor to beat LW Whitaker.

Duran. This debate (Duran-Whitaker) has been beaten to death, dug up, beaten again, burned, kicked around, and dismembered enough. Duran is favored in this corner because of his intelligent fire, his "backalley baroque" style that I'd count on to keep Pernell on the defensive a bit too much to win. I don't believe that any man can be favored to beat prime Duran without guns and Whitaker doesn't have the firepower to keep Duran at bay. He'd make him look bad at times, but Duran could be counted on to mix his attack and beat Pernell ...on points


Armstrong. He is more one-dimensional than Duran, but that dimension was hell on wheels. It was also more of a multi-facetted attack than acknowledged today. Henry wasn't a face-first Mexican -he could be elusive while he's mass murdering your ribs. Pernell is one of those fighters who look extraordinary when the other guy is cooperative; that is, when the other guy is fighting him like he'd fight an ordinary boxer. Floyd Mayweather Jr is another example. Castillo I, which I have as a loss for Floyd, demonstrated how you deal with a stylist like Floyd. Armstrong would, in my opinion, demonstrate how you deal with a defensive savant like Pernell. In sum, don't let him breath. Rembrandt can't paint in an earthquake. Armstrong did this right, and had great skill and experience behind him.

....
That being said, I'd favor no one else to beat him, at least no one that I can think of right now. Not Chavez, not Ortiz, not Arguello, not Buchanan, not the Great Bennah.

interesting,

Armstrong is a 50-50 for me,How do you see a Benny Leonard fight playing out

[Robbi]

Duran. This debate (Duran-Whitaker) has been beaten to death, dug up, beaten again, burned, kicked around, and dismembered enough. Duran is favored in this corner because of his intelligent fire, his "backalley baroque" style that I'd count on to keep Pernell on the defensive a bit too much to win. I don't believe that any man can be favored to beat prime Duran without guns and Whitaker doesn't have the firepower to keep Duran at bay. He'd make him look bad at times, but Duran could be counted on to mix his attack and beat Pernell ...on points.

Whitaker doesn't have the guns to keep Duran at bay, but he has the magic dust to do it. In other words, he's got the style. I personally don't think Duran hits Whitaker often enough to slow him down to the point where Whitaker's only option would be to brawl, thus Duran getting him where he wants him over a sustained period of time to win enough rounds. Whitaker's defense is just too damn good. He's got that option of spearing out the jab on the backfoot. Certainly a nice tool to score on Duran outwith the lateral movement he's got by the bucketful.

It's a great theory that because Whitaker lacks power, Duran doesn't care what he's being peppered with in return and walks through everything. Sadly, things just don't work like that. Whitaker has all the tricks up his sleeve to keep Duran off him, power isn't needed. Oh, and he's durable enough to take them when Duran does land bombs.

[teeto]

To be honest i don't see the power issue as being the biggest here. I just think it's a thing about both men getting off.

[Stonehands89]

interesting,

Armstrong is a 50-50 for me,How do you see a Benny Leonard fight playing out
"The Great Bennah" had a magnficent boxing mind, but he'd need more than that to beat Whitaker, who was off the charts in terms of talent and skill. Benny had power, which is a good thing to have, but I don't think that anyone outboxes Whitaker. You have to take him to a place where his strengths are nullified and only the two mentioned before were capable of brining him there, in my opinion.

[GPater11093]

"The Great Bennah" had a magnficent boxing mind, but he'd need more than that to beat Whitaker, who was off the charts in terms of talent and skill. Benny had power, which is a good thing to have, but I don't think that anyone outboxes Whitaker. You have to take him to a place where his strengths are nullified and only the two mentioned before were capable of brining him there, in my opinion.

even if Benny stayed back and forced Pea to lead and countered Pea as Benny could do this.

Also Benny IMO is the better ring general than Pea

[Sweet Pea]

Yes, the old trick Willie Pastrano pulled on Harold Johnson in '63 when he lifted the title from Harold. Make the guy who's the counterpuncher do the leading...make him come to you and make him leave his "comfort zone" so to speak. That's a brilliant tactic, by the way, and it sure worked for Pastrano. That's the way I would devise to fight Pernell, but you have to be somewhat quick of hand and foot yourself for that to pull it off well.
Interesting idea, and a good one for the majority of fighters of a similar style, but not Pernell. He showed on multiple occasions that he was excellent at fighting off the front foot and pressing the fight. He was more or less made to fight off the backfoot by bigger punchers or pressure fighters most of the time, but when he decided to step on the gas, he was not only very comfortable off the front foot, but also very formidable. Ask Chavez (then again he'd probably tell you very differently).

[Sweet Pea]

even if Benny stayed back and forced Pea to lead and countered Pea as Benny could do this.
As stated, we saw a prime Pea fight very well off the front foot on many occasions. He was every bit as efficient with other pure boxers. I think Manassa's take is probably the best one I've ever read to be honest. You need a fighter with different elements to his game to even have a prayer.

[GPater11093]

Interesting idea, and a good one for the majority of fighters of a similar style, but not Pernell. He showed on multiple occasions that he was excellent at fighting off the front foot and pressing the fight. He was more or less made to fight off the backfoot by bigger punchers or pressure fighters most of the time, but when he decided to step on the gas, he was not only very comfortable off the front foot, but also very formidable. Ask Chavez (then again he'd probably tell you very differently).

he did fight of the front foot brillaintly but as you say it wa bigger punchers or pressure fighters making him on his back foot.

Someone like Leonard could make him come forward and had a big punch. What fighters at LW did Pea beat while fighting on the front foot? because they werent of the quality of the ones on his back foot.

What about if someone made him constanly change to attack and defence?

[GPater11093]

As stated, we saw a prime Pea fight very well off the front foot on many occasions. He was every bit as efficient with other pure boxers. I think Manassa's take is probably the best one I've ever read to be honest. You need a fighter with different elements to his game to even have a prayer.

But Leonard was a good counter puncher and a great ring general. This could be a problem for Pea IMO

[Sweet Pea]

he did fight of the front foot brillaintly but as you say it wa bigger punchers or pressure fighters making him on his back foot.

Someone like Leonard could make him come forward and had a big punch. What fighters at LW did Pea beat while fighting on the front foot? because they werent of the quality of the ones on his back foot.

What about if someone made him constanly change to attack and defence?I never saw that kind of ability in Leonard, I never even saw the ability to throw combinations, which was a staple of the era. I don't think a fighter looking to pick off Whitaker with single shots is going to be very successful, at all.

Pea beat Lomeli by KO and Brazier by white-wash fighting primarily off the front foot. He also either stood his ground or took turns leading against fighters like McGirt, Roger Mayweather, Greh Haugen, Poli Diaz, Anthony Jones, etc. He was always very efficient when he did this.

As for the bolded bit, combining offense and defense was one of Whitaker's biggest strengths.

[GPater11093]

I never saw that kind of ability in Leonard, I never even saw the ability to throw combinations, which was a staple of the era. I don't think a fighter looking to pick off Whitaker with single shots is going to be very successful, at all.

Pea beat Lomeli by KO and Brazier by white-wash fighting primarily off the front foot. He also either stood his ground or took turns leading against fighters like McGirt, Roger Mayweather, Greh Haugen, Poli Diaz, Anthony Jones, etc. He was always very efficient when he did this.

As for the bolded bit, combining offense and defense was one of Whitaker's biggest strengths.

good points, your starting to convince me

i mean to constantly change the pace and distance of the fight when fighting Whittaker would taht work

[Sweet Pea]

But Leonard was a good counter puncher and a great ring general. This could be a problem for Pea IMO

Not if he's looking to throw single shots and clinch afterward every time. Pea was a ring general supremo, I don't think he's getting out-done in that area. This fight would likely be fought with either Whitaker on the front foot or in center ring. Either way I give Whitaker the upper hand, easily. At least based on what I've seen of Benny, which isn't very much (same with all of us).

[Sweet Pea]

i mean to constantly change the pace and distance of the fight when fighting Whittaker would taht workThat's probably the way to do it. But you need to have a lot of variety and substance to your work. Duran is probably the best choice, along with Ortiz, as mentioned.

[GPater11093]

Not if he's looking to throw single shots and clinch afterward every time. Pea was a ring general supremo, I don't think he's getting out-done in that area. This fight would likely be fought with either Whitaker on the front foot or in center ring. Either way I give Whitaker the upper hand, easily. At least based on what I've seen of Benny, which isn't very much (same with all of us).

I think your slightly under rating Bennys ring generalship.

That's probably the way to do it. But you need to have a lot of variety and substance to your work. Duran is probably the best choice, along with Ortiz, as mentioned.

i think Duran fits this bill perfect.

[Stonehands89]

Whitaker doesn't have the guns to keep Duran at bay, but he has the magic dust to do it. In other words, he's got the style. I personally don't think Duran hits Whitaker often enough to slow him down to the point where Whitaker's only option would be to brawl, thus Duran getting him where he wants him over a sustained period of time to win enough rounds. Whitaker's defense is just too damn good. He's got that option of spearing out the jab on the backfoot. Certainly a nice tool to score on Duran outwith the lateral movement he's got by the bucketful.

It's a great theory that because Whitaker lacks power, Duran doesn't care what he's being peppered with in return and walks through everything. Sadly, things just don't work like that. Whitaker has all the tricks up his sleeve to keep Duran off him, power isn't needed. Oh, and he's durable enough to take them when Duran does land bombs.
--"Sadly?" What's that about?

My retort to Teeto and to you is well-tread, but I'll say it again. Duran is just as special as Whitaker -many would say he is more so. Their strengths are different and like any match-up we should look carefully at style. You have been denying the importance of Whitaker's lack of firepower in a Duran fight for a long time now, but that is effectively denying history in favor of fantasy.

Duran was beaten twice when he was young -DeJesus and Leonard beat him. Both had power. Duran, though he'd deny it, did in fact respect power and fought with a bit more care in the face of it. After Montreal he begrudgingly admitted that Leonard was the best man he faced. Leonard's shots are what commanded his respect. Even in New Orleans, Duran wasn't big on rushing in and Leonard's 'slickness' had less to do with it than the persuasive shots that Leonard was landing. Leonard could bang, and Duran wasn't in the great shape of 5 months earlier -that's why Duran was careful. No need for that, against Whitaker who was smaller, weaker, and couldn't bang like Leonard. Duran would be channeling Armstrong on Sweet Pea, similarly to what he did in Montreal. He'd do so with less risk.

You see Whitaker's "magic" as being the difference in Duran-Whitaker. I prefer to go with reality. Unless they exchange the ring for a gymnasium, Whitaker is not going to spend 15 rounds escaping a prime, hungry, well-trained Duran. You are missing the boat here -to win a fight you have to engage your opponent and the prospect of Whitaker, whose frame was miniscule next to Leonard, engaging Duran effectively enough to win is fantasy. It is Duran who would be boss here. And again, not even a natural welterweight in Leonard could not match Duran's strength in close.

Duran is simply too strong, too aggressive, and too skilled, to get whipped by a smaller man -any smaller man. If Pernell had guns, I'd factor that in and re-examine it, but Pernell's skills aren't so superior to Duran's to make the difference.

[Sweet Pea]

Brilliant post Stonehands, as always. I don't think Whitaker would need to engage with Duran as often as you do in order to win, though. I guess I just have more faith in his jab and ability to fight off the backfoot, and I do think this would be a style that would deter Duran, or at least give him something to think about more than ever before. You could be right, though. These days I'm calling this fight Even Stevens.

[Robbi]

Brilliant post Stonehands, as always.

Old Stonehands sure knows how to piece together a nice bit writing.

[Stonehands89]

Brilliant post Stonehands, as always. I don't think Whitaker would need to engage with Duran as often as you do in order to win, though. I guess I just have more faith in his jab and ability to fight off the backfoot, and I do think this would be a style that would deter Duran, or at least give him something to think about more than ever before. You could be right, though. These days I'm calling this fight Even Stevens.
I respect your open-mindedness, SP. This fight would be anything but one-sided...

It may well be the kind of fight that spawns decades of debate depending on whether you like "defense" or "effective aggression" and whether the judges got it right.

[Robbi]

I respect your open-mindedness, SP. This fight would be anything but one-sided...

It may well be the kind of fight that spawns decades of debate depending on whether you like "defense" or "effective aggression" and whether the judges got it right.

Nice avatar, SH. What did you make of Gatti as a fighter?

[Stonehands89]

Nice avatar, SH. What did you make of Gatti as a fighter?
Gatti? Heart and soul. Graziano's grandson. Mancini-mold. He gave us several magnificent demonstrations of the force of will and later on some respectable demonstrations of skill, but it is the former that we are all indebted to him for. Gatti is a fan-multiplier -he breeds fans for the Greatest Sport of All because of the suspense and shock & awe style that he brought to the ring.

I loved his humility and his honesty just as much.

[Flea Man]

Of course i've always said Roberto Duran and Whittaker are in my opinion the two best fighters in head to head terms (regardless of a styles match-up) at the weight. The only other lightweight i've ever tipped for a win over Pernell Whittaker is Carlos Ortiz, and i'm very glad the great poster that is Manassa mentioned him also.

Ortiz is stylistically complete, multi-dimensional, but that alone never qualifies one to even be considered for a win over Pernell Whitaker. It depends how adept Ortiz is in these various areas of the game, and for me he's one of the best. He can stay on the outside, he can step in and potshot with a one two or a right hand to perfection, why that is a plus here is because it means he doesn't put himself in excessive danger of being countered. Whitaker is possibly even more skilled than Ortiz on the outside, but Ortiz can maintain distance and that might be important here. The fight will without doubt be taken to the trenches, both men enjoy setting up office there, and whoever is not getting the better of the boxing 'chess-match' will likely initiate combat in these quarters. As great as Pernell Whitaker's inside game is (and in an overall sense), i don't mean this disrespectful, as i clearly rate Pernell as possibly the best fighter ever, but what's he going to do, outfight Carlos Ortiz? Pernell would be wiser to try and win the chess-match and keep it there in my opinion.

The Duran-Whitaker proposition is still the hardest to split for me though. I don't think Whitaker has to stay on the outside as much as everyone else thinks, when Duran gets close, he can flurry-counter and slide off, turning his man is more essential here than keeping the focus on maintaing distance here. If anyone knows Duran, they know that his traditionally used method of cutting off the ring is not in the conventional sense. His most trusted method is simply via maybe the greatest straight right hand launched from distance of all time. Once that punch lands, what follows is something i can only imagine would be not too dissimilar to a whirlwind (with bricks flying around it). And that's why i feel backing up is not an option, but turning him is, though a ridiculously difficult ideal t bring to fruition, Pernell may have the ability. Him if anyone i'd think. One thing i'm almost shocked that noone has mentioned is one of the most basic of all tools that any young fighter is taught to use against a southpaw stylist- that already mentioned right hand, copule it with Duran's defensive capabilities to slip a jab and we have more of a contest than some (and to my disbelief) assume.

I sit on the fence, two of the finest skillsets my eyes have had the privelege of glaring upon.
fantastic post on all fronts :good

[teeto]

fantastic post on all fronts :good
Thank you!

[Flea Man]

Thank you!
i have however changed my stance back to a draw. i don't believe duran could stop pea. he lived with murderous punchers past prime and out of his best weight. i think duran might squeek out a decision.....nah i don't know to be honest. i'm starting to think ortiz's more varied approach in terms of pace might favour him. i almost feel duran assaulting pea fast may make him easier to turn. ortiz would constantly be changing,shifting up, down, up, down. as would pea though which makes this fight as difficult to pick :rofl

[teeto]

i have however changed my stance back to a draw. i don't believe duran could stop pea. he lived with murderous punchers past prime and out of his best weight. i think duran might squeek out a decision.....nah i don't know to be honest. i'm starting to think ortiz's more varied approach in terms of pace might favour him. i almost feel duran assaulting pea fast may make him easier to turn. ortiz would constantly be changing,shifting up, down, up, down. as would pea though which makes this fight as difficult to pick :rofl
Wow, take a break Flea, you need a holiday or something, (and you said i was losing it)

Haha, kidding, a stoppage seems hard to imagine doesn't it though?

[mightyd40]

aaron pryor his ass.....keep swinging, somethings gotta land. pryor might look like a sloppy mess but he COULD get to him (maybe).

[Flea Man]

Wow, take a break Flea, you need a holiday or something, (and you said i was losing it)

Haha, kidding, a stoppage seems hard to imagine doesn't it though?

of course. just been watching duran lately and forget how destructive he was. got so used to telling noobs 'he wasn't just a whirlwind' i forgot how brutal and powerful ,and fast he could be. add that to his timing, speed, accuracy , variety......i could go on.

[Flea Man]

pryor at 140 is another close pick. i think he was good on the back foot too, although i think there's a distinct possibility of a draw, over (also pryor's preference) 12 rounds i go for pryor to get frustrated as the fight goes on and for pea to take the last two rounds, 115-113 pea

[teeto]

--"Sadly?" What's that about?

My retort to Teeto and to you is well-tread, but I'll say it again. Duran is just as special as Whitaker -many would say he is more so. Their strengths are different and like any match-up we should look carefully at style. You have been denying the importance of Whitaker's lack of firepower in a Duran fight for a long time now, but that is effectively denying history in favor of fantasy.

Duran was beaten twice when he was young -DeJesus and Leonard beat him. Both had power. Duran, though he'd deny it, did in fact respect power and fought with a bit more care in the face of it. After Montreal he begrudgingly admitted that Leonard was the best man he faced. Leonard's shots are what commanded his respect. Even in New Orleans, Duran wasn't big on rushing in and Leonard's 'slickness' had less to do with it than the persuasive shots that Leonard was landing. Leonard could bang, and Duran wasn't in the great shape of 5 months earlier -that's why Duran was careful. No need for that, against Whitaker who was smaller, weaker, and couldn't bang like Leonard. Duran would be channeling Armstrong on Sweet Pea, similarly to what he did in Montreal. He'd do so with less risk.

You see Whitaker's "magic" as being the difference in Duran-Whitaker. I prefer to go with reality. Unless they exchange the ring for a gymnasium, Whitaker is not going to spend 15 rounds escaping a prime, hungry, well-trained Duran. You are missing the boat here -to win a fight you have to engage your opponent and the prospect of Whitaker, whose frame was miniscule next to Leonard, engaging Duran effectively enough to win is fantasy. It is Duran who would be boss here. And again, not even a natural welterweight in Leonard could not match Duran's strength in close.

Duran is simply too strong, too aggressive, and too skilled, to get whipped by a smaller man -any smaller man. If Pernell had guns, I'd factor that in and re-examine it, but Pernell's skills aren't so superior to Duran's to make the difference.
Stonehands, i wasn't disagreeing with you on the outcome though. I was making a case for Duran winning, i just actually went against the grain in why. I used to consider the line of thinking which is yours more so, but i think that at this weight Pernell Whitaker's pop is not too bad, though your reasoning is probably all as respectable as mine, my open-mindedness enables me to clearly see that. I just think that Duran can actually do the scoring, i find it hard to believe that there's only myself that has mentioned Duran's hugely successful tool in rapidly closing distance, the right hand (and against the southpaw stylist?), and then is when that scoring of points comes into effect, before Whitaker attempts to get back out of range.

Of course i can see your reasoning in that Whitaker doesn't have the firepower to keep an all swarming force of nature-esque type Duran off him as well, but i just think that Whitaker is still given more opportunities to counter that man (which would be a Buchanan version). Anyway, we are in agreement that Duran can win it, i wasn't making the case for Whitaker outright with my point about power. More that i was giving Duran even more credit by saying he could win on skillset even though Whitkaer's lack of power might not be massive.

[teeto]

of course. just been watching duran lately and forget how destructive he was. got so used to telling noobs 'he wasn't just a whirlwind' i forgot how brutal and powerful ,and fast he could be. add that to his timing, speed, accuracy , variety......i could go on.
Yeah i completely understand man! Telling newbies how much he wasn't just raw aggression, you forget (without seeing him for a while) just how big for him that raw aggression was. And that skillset is something esle isn't it.

[GPater11093]

of course. just been watching duran lately and forget how destructive he was. got so used to telling noobs 'he wasn't just a whirlwind' i forgot how brutal and powerful ,and fast he could be. add that to his timing, speed, accuracy , variety......i could go on.

i bee watching him recently the guy is phenomenal

[Drew101]

Mayweather Jr????:think

I used to pick Mayweather...because he matches Whitaker more or less for speed, might hit a little harder at the weight, has an excellent and very accurate right hand and is defensively prefocient enough to make it the kind of fight where each round is determined by maybe one or two clean punches.

But, after rewatching Whitaker's early career, I remembered that he could certainly apply the type of calculated pressure and move forward behind a stiff speedy southpaw jab that would be sure to trouble him.

So, I'm not completely certain about that pick anymore, although I wouldn't rule Mayweather out completely.

I think someone like a young Shane Mosely could give Whitaker hell, because he could work the body, jab a bit, move a bit, and turn it into the type of fight where every round would be close to call.

Henry Armstrong could close the distance fast enough to turn it into the type of inside battle that might favor him. Plus he did pretty well against slick, quick-fisted fighters like Sarron and Ross.

As a complete dark horse pick, I could maybe see a situation where Edwin Rosario pulls something out of the fire like he did against Davis, where he spent most of the fight getting outbopxed, but managed to box well enugh to gain a few rounds, and scored a couple of knockdowns to gain the points needed to win a controversial decision. Ain't likely, but the way Chapo punched you could never rule out something like this.

[Boro chris]

Duran would be my pick

How would he do it, well with difficulty, 1st things 1st is you need to have an area where you are better than whitaker which isn't easy, he was a master at all ranges, however i'm sure we can all agree duran was better than whitaker on the inside if he could get there. Against duran whitaker i envisage would use a lot of lateral movement and fighting behind his jab.

So the 1st thing that would be needed would be to have someone who could get inside the jab, duran is the perfect candidate for the job, he can do this in quite a lot of different ways, his ability to feint to get inside is top notch but he also has another option open to him, his swarming sort of style he used so effctively to get inside buchanan, he also had the footspeed to be able to do so, he need to mix up the ways he was looking to come inside, so whitaker cannot get a read on him and begin to time his approaches ad counter him.

Once inside pea is no slouch, in fact he's one of the best inside fighters i've ever seen, but duran was better, he was nearly as proficient defensively and was stronger, also his work to the body and just general ability on the inside was better. For me duran has got the ability to take the fight inside often enough and do enough work whilst there to be able to take a tight UD or SD over pea, i can see an argument for pernell winning but i favour duran slightly

Another intersting fight IMO would be the young robinson who beat agnott v whitaker, i think he may be able to beat whitaker though i am not certain of it as robinson was still pretty green, but would have a lot of physical advantages for pea to overcome

I cannot actually think of a more interesting matchup in all the divisions of boxing throughout its history! High,high quality matchup and a brilliant clash of styles!

[divac]

On this topic of Duran-Whitaker......
.......Whitaker would never open himself up enough offensively to even have a chance at the cards against Duran.

The one advantage that Duran had over JC Chavez is the mean streak in him.......he would have never allowed Whitaker to go low on him, much less twice in a round without serious retribution.

Pea is a dirty fighter, but Duran is dirtier........when he'd miss Whitaker, shoulders, arms and elbows would be sure to follow on Whitaker's being......and Duran was as good as anyone at disguising it too.......


Like anytime that Whitaker is in with a live opponent, its an ugly fight, but one that Duran wins comfortably on the cards imo.

If Whitaker were to fight to win and offensively seriously tried to do something, I think he'd be competitive with Duran.....Whitaker would'nt go that route however.

[PunchOut]

The JCC of the 135 lbs had all the tools to defeat Pea

[sweet_scientist]

The JCC of the 135 lbs had all the tools to defeat Pea

Explain. What would he do that he couldn't at 142?

[Sweet Pea]

The JCC of the 135 lbs had all the tools to defeat PeaThat's a negative.

[smitty_son408]

The JCC of the 135 lbs had all the tools to defeat Pea

@135 Whitaker does the same number on Chavez that he did at 147, when they both were past their peaks. Whitaker would twice more mobile, quicker, and more on his toes.

[BITCH ASS]

Henry Armstrong could beat him.

[smitty_son408]

Is it me or did Whitaker alway's circle to his right???

[Robbi]

@135 Whitaker does the same number on Chavez that he did at 147, when they both were past their peaks. Whitaker would twice more mobile, quicker, and more on his toes.

Agreed.

[zarman]

ask magarito for his gloves

[GPater11093]

Is it me or did Whitaker alway's circle to his right???

He did it more than most fighters

its to get away from the right hand all southpaws do it

[teeto]

Fuck this,

Ken Buchanan.

[redrooster]

Is it me or did Whitaker alway's circle to his right???

that's what you have to do if you're a southpaw. I brought this up not long ago in the Monzon-Hagler matchup

as for how to beat Pernell, the answer is easy: you find another southpaw, equally slick only faster. A fighter such as Hector Camacho

[smitty_son408]

that's what you have to do if you're a southpaw. I brought this up not long ago in the Monzon-Hagler matchup

as for how to beat Pernell, the answer is easy: you find another southpaw, equally slick only faster. A fighter such as Hector Camacho

True, but what i'm getting at is how would he react if he was forced to his left for instance???

[GPater11093]

Fuck this,

Ken Buchanan.

how did you get that.

i love Ken but no way

[teeto]

how did you get that.

i love Ken but no way
Nar i just wanted to mention him, because he simply hasn't been mentioned, i was bored!

It's not an easy fight for Pernell Whitkaker though

[GPater11093]

Nar i just wanted to mention him, because he simply hasn't been mentioned, i was bored!

It's not an easy fight for Pernell Whitkaker though

he deserves a mention

Kens a tough fight for anyone.

Ken beats a prime ortiz for me

[teeto]

he deserves a mention

Kens a tough fight for anyone.

Ken beats a prime ortiz for me
I'd pick Ortiz to beat him personally. Why the outright no no on Buchanan against Whitaker?

[GPater11093]

I'd pick Ortiz to beat him personally. Why the outright no no on Buchanan against Whitaker?

i just think whatever Ken does Pea does better and there similar in ways an dthe faster guy has a huge advantage then

[teeto]

i just think whatever Ken does Pea does better and there similar in ways an dthe faster guy has a huge advantage then
Yeah possibly GP.

[GPater11093]

Yeah possibly GP.

again its my speed theory, in the Burley thread.

Dont get me wrong Ken does things differently to Pea and i think he holds a stylistic advantage over Ortiz whereas Pea would struggle and maybe not even beat Ortiz

[teeto]

again its my speed theory, in the Burley thread.

Dont get me wrong Ken does things differently to Pea and i think he holds a stylistic advantage over Ortiz whereas Pea would struggle and maybe not even beat Ortiz
I think that Ortiz would beat him and it would be a tough hard fight thaken inside as well. I think both men are superb ring generals, and Ortiz' strength would enable him to grind out a decision, personally.

[GPater11093]

I think that Ortiz would beat him and it would be a tough hard fight thaken inside as well. I think both men are superb ring generals, and Ortiz' strength would enable him to grind out a decision, personally.

maybe it is a tough fight and Buchanan down the stretch is amazing the last 5 rounds would be a war

[teeto]

maybe it is a tough fight and Buchanan down the stretch is amazing the last 5 rounds would be a war
Would be a fight that leaves us all in awe no doubt.

[GPater11093]

Would be a fight that leaves us all in awe no doubt.

definitly the last 5 rounds would be among the best in history and the first 10 would be among the best technically in history

[redrooster]

True, but what i'm getting at is how would he react if he was forced to his left for instance???


Smitty, just by asking that question you show that you are miles ahead of your peers. Between two southpaws My guess is the one with the slower reaction time is going to come off second best.

[Sweet Pea]

again its my speed theory, in the Burley thread.

Dont get me wrong Ken does things differently to Pea and i think he holds a stylistic advantage over Ortiz whereas Pea would struggle and maybe not even beat Ortiz

What stylistic advantage does he hold over Ortiz? I don't think their actual fight gives any insight as to what a prime matchup between the two would look like. Ortiz was shot to shit.

But explain that last part.

[GPater11093]

What stylistic advantage does he hold over Ortiz? I don't think their actual fight gives any insight as to what a prime matchup between the two would look like. Ortiz was shot to shit.

But explain that last part.

I know Ortiz was shot to hell. He shouldnt have fought Ken and he was actually scheduled to fight Duran that night.

I just think Ken has the right style to beat Ortiz. when Ortiz (albeit in a not so good performance) lost to Laguna it was his lateral movement and his jab that caused Ortiz problems.

Ortiz had more sucess when he used the jab but he still had some difficulties. i think Ken had a better jab than Laguna and was harder to hit with a jab. Also i think Ken held the middle of the ring better and Ortiz would find it hard to cut him off.

However it is a very very close fight probabbly a SD.

I think Ken does things differently to Pea that would hold him in good stead in this fight. Pea fought alot on the inside which i dont thinks that great against Ortiz. The Pea in Ramirez 1 would do better against Ortiz than Pea in Ramirez 2.

[BoppaZoo]

What makes me wonder in disbelief at times on here or in here in ESB is.

Why the fuck so many think Sweet Pea the Poster not actually Pernell is some sort of knowledge and god at picking apart fights and thinking he knows more than others about who would KO who or who would beat who.

Like ive said and will continue to say he is an armchair expert like all of us nothing more nothing less.

Sweet Pea i sometimes agree with you but most the time i find it laughable that so many think your some sort of Bert Sugar of Boxing.

How funny it is to watch the hoards of posters fill his ego with talking about how great Whitaker was and feeding him little what i like to call. Ill set em up Sweet Pea will knock em down type posts.

Classic forum cracks me up. Sweet Pea how good is Pernell no Common tell us. Please i havnt heard it before.

Hey can we start say another thread about Whitaker tommorow Please.

Common respond Sweet Pea play the game.

[teeto]

What makes me wonder in disbelief at times on here or in here in ESB is.

Why the fuck so many think Sweet Pea the Poster not actually Pernell is some sort of knowledge and god at picking apart fights and thinking he knows more than others about who would KO who or who would beat who.

Like ive said and will continue to say he is an armchair expert like all of us nothing more nothing less.

Sweet Pea i sometimes agree with you but most the time i find it laughable that so many think your some sort of Bert Sugar of Boxing.

How funny it is to watch the hoards of posters fill his ego with talking about how great Whitaker was and feeding him little what i like to call. Ill set em up Sweet Pea will knock em down type posts.

Classic forum cracks me up. Sweet Pea how good is Pernell no Common tell us. Please i havnt heard it before.

Hey can we start say another thread about Whitaker tommorow Please.

Common respond Sweet Pea play the game.
Noone takes his word as law, he's just a good poster who others respect, just like others. If we don't agree, we debate, if we do agree, we say 'good post', know what i mean?

[BoppaZoo]

Noone takes his word as law, he's just a good poster who others respect, just like others. If we don't agree, we debate, if we do agree, we say 'good post', know what i mean?There are a few not naming anyone that have straws attached to his ring hole though. :lol: And he loves it. Its funny. He knows what im talking about.

Sweet Pea if he had a boxing name to go with his Posting name it would be.

Former Straw weight Champion of the North America's Sweet MR EGO Peaaaaaaaaaaaaa. :rofl

Hoped you liked that one Pea that was for you.

[teeto]

There are a few not naming anyone that have straws attached to his ring hole though. :lol: And he loves it. Its funny. He knows what im talking about.

Sweet Pea if he had a boxing name to go with his Posting name it would be.

Former Straw weight Champion of the North America's Sweet MR EGO Peaaaaaaaaaaaaa. :rofl

Hoped you liked that one Pea that was for you.
Haha, looks like you get a hangup about him from the outside though man!

Sorry it looks that way though.

[BoppaZoo]

On a serious note Sweet Pea please answer this question.

How do you think Pernell would go against


A Prime Sid Razak at Lightweight.

[BoppaZoo]

Haha, looks like you get a hangup about him from the outside though man!

Sorry it looks that way though.Nah we have had nothing but arguments. About every subject on boxing i think. Well most of my biggest ones have been with Sweet Pea.

And i live for it. :yep But i wish he would grow some balls and enter the tipping comps.

[snell]

What makes me wonder in disbelief at times on here or in here in ESB is.

Why the fuck so many think Sweet Pea the Poster not actually Pernell is some sort of knowledge and god at picking apart fights and thinking he knows more than others about who would KO who or who would beat who.

Like ive said and will continue to say he is an armchair expert like all of us nothing more nothing less.

Sweet Pea i sometimes agree with you but most the time i find it laughable that so many think your some sort of Bert Sugar of Boxing.

How funny it is to watch the hoards of posters fill his ego with talking about how great Whitaker was and feeding him little what i like to call. Ill set em up Sweet Pea will knock em down type posts.

Classic forum cracks me up. Sweet Pea how good is Pernell no Common tell us. Please i havnt heard it before.

Hey can we start say another thread about Whitaker tommorow Please.

Common respond Sweet Pea play the game.


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

funny shit. he even once agreed that pac wouldnt last 5 rounds with hatton. :rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

damn classic posters.

[Flea Man]

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

funny shit. he even once agreed that pac wouldnt last 5 rounds with hatton. :rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

damn classic posters.

he really rates Pac though.

[sweet_scientist]

What makes me wonder in disbelief at times on here or in here in ESB is.

Why the fuck so many think Sweet Pea the Poster not actually Pernell is some sort of knowledge and god at picking apart fights and thinking he knows more than others about who would KO who or who would beat who.

Like ive said and will continue to say he is an armchair expert like all of us nothing more nothing less.

Sweet Pea i sometimes agree with you but most the time i find it laughable that so many think your some sort of Bert Sugar of Boxing.

How funny it is to watch the hoards of posters fill his ego with talking about how great Whitaker was and feeding him little what i like to call. Ill set em up Sweet Pea will knock em down type posts.

Classic forum cracks me up. Sweet Pea how good is Pernell no Common tell us. Please i havnt heard it before.

Hey can we start say another thread about Whitaker tommorow Please.

Common respond Sweet Pea play the game.

I think people respect him because he is well versed in all areas of the sport. He doesn't dickride a fighter simply because of his nationality, or because he grew up watching the fighter when he was at his most impressionable.

It's true, we are all arm chair experts, but some have seen more from their arm chairs than others. Unlike most in the general forum, or those from the general forum that poke their heads in here for an occasional post that pertains to their favourite, or simply to stir shit, those in the classic forum try and go beyond their biases and form well rounded perspectives on the sport as a whole. For that, they are commendable posters.

As for predicting the outcomes of fights, that's always going to be very speculative and I'm sure even the most knowledgable boxing pundits get things wrong. On the flipside, I'm sure even the biggest moron can get a prediction right here and there.

[Flea Man]

I think people respect him because he is well versed in all areas of the sport. He doesn't dickride a fighter simply because of his nationality, or because he grew up watching the fighter when he was at his most impressionable.

It's true, we are all arm chair experts, but some have seen more from their arm chairs than others. Unlike most in the general forum, or those from the general forum that poke their heads in here for an occasional post that pertains to their favourite, or simply to stir shit, those in the classic forum try and go beyond their biases and form well rounded perspectives on the sport as a whole. For that, they are commendable posters.

As for predicting the outcomes of fights, that's always going to be very speculative and I'm sure even the most knowledgable boxing pundits get things wrong. On the flipside, I'm sure even the biggest moron can get a prediction right here and there.

very good post:good

[Stonehands89]

Sweet Pea has earned his respect here.

BoppaZoo suffers from acute feelings of envy.

[snell]

Sweet Pea has earned his respect here.

BoppaZoo suffers from acute feelings of envy.


respect, maybe... but for a "maybe" respectable poster who once agreed that pac wouldnt last 5 rounds with hatton is....... :lol::lol::lol:

i'd rather be a simple poster than being recognized an expert but dumb in analysis and predictions... :rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

[WhataRock]

respect, maybe... but for a "maybe" respectable poster who once agreed that pac wouldnt last 5 rounds with hatton is....... :lol::lol::lol:

i'd rather be a simple poster than being recognized an expert but dumb in analysis and predictions... :rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl


Harrison?

[Flea Man]

respect, maybe... but for a "maybe" respectable poster who once agreed that pac wouldnt last 5 rounds with hatton is....... :lol::lol::lol:

i'd rather be a simple poster than being recognized an expert but dumb in analysis and predictions... :rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

yeah that's ONE prediction mate............nobhead

[WhataRock]

There are a few not naming anyone that have straws attached to his ring hole though. :lol: And he loves it. Its funny. He knows what im talking about.

Sweet Pea if he had a boxing name to go with his Posting name it would be.

Former Straw weight Champion of the North America's Sweet MR EGO Peaaaaaaaaaaaaa. :rofl

Hoped you liked that one Pea that was for you.


:lol:

Mr Sobchak, How many have you had tonight?

[Robbi]

Sweet Pea has earned his respect here.

BoppaZoo suffers from acute feelings of envy.

Thats right. Gotta earn it. Never gonna earn it acting like a moron huh. Nice avatar. Seen it before. :good

[Stonehands89]

respect, maybe... but for a "maybe" respectable poster who once agreed that pac wouldnt last 5 rounds with hatton is....... :lol::lol::lol:

i'd rather be a simple poster than being recognized an expert but dumb in analysis and predictions... :rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl
You suffer from the same problem as BoppaZoo.

[Duodenum]

I'm assuming this is over the championship distance, rather than 12 rounds.

At his best, Duran was not somebody whose responses could be predicted and timed. He would have immediately set out to determine how Whitaker reacted defensively to a varietly of convincing feints. Hooks to the body (such as the one he brought world class welterweight contender Monroe Brooks down for the count with) are an obvious tactic to use on an elusive southpaw. Duran developed much of his inside attack in childhood streetfights, not in a boxing ring (this was greatly in evidence when he savaged young Davey Moore).

During their controversial draw, Whitaker was able to stun Chavez a few times, and outperform him on the inside. JCC also evidenced some signs of fatigue when they squared off. Peak Duran was indefatigible, and may have been the greatest infighter who ever lived. When overweight and way past his prime, even a peak Hagler and Barkley failed to crush him with sheer physicality.

Considering Duran's body attack and 15 round pedigree, we have no way of knowing how Whitaker might have performed down the stretch. In Montreal, Roberto knew that he had the scoring clinched after the first ten rounds, so he let up a bit over the final 15 minutes of action, allowing SRL to make up some of his insurmountable lead.

Palomino and SRL were tough and powerful hall of fame welterweights in their 20s, yet Duran dominated each on points over the first ten rounds he shared the ring with them. This discussion has to do with the peaking lightweight Duran, somebody likely far too strong for Whitaker to match physically.

Should Whitaker be competitive enough for the judging to be in doubt after 12 rounds, could he have the legs and energy to outbox and outmaneuver as necessary to secure a time limit judgment in his favor, or does Roberto's body attack and grueling pressure slow him down too much to produce an eye catching finish?

Whitaker was dropped from time to time, and I expect that Duran would send him to the floor at some point.


Even during his peak, many automatically assumed that continual movement and elusiveness was the way to beat Arguello (something widely believed about Louis as well). To actually succeed in doing this over 15 rounds is another matter though. Vilomar Fernandez upset Arguello over 10 rounds the first time they met, but it was a narrow decision. The argument can be made that Arguello was better over his first ten rounds with Fernandez than either Duran, Hilmer Kenty or Howard Davis, Jr. Vilomar was never able to evade like that over 15 rounds.

Handling lefties was something of a specialty for Arguello. Tam, Navarrete, Limon, Boza Edwards, Busceme, Watt and Ganigan were all taken care of in decisive fashion. Arguello could jab effectively against the southpaw stance, as well as shooting in straight rights and hooks to the body. He would have a tremendous reach advantage here.

Ramirez was able to drop him in losing a close decision, an outcome Alexis was hoping to avenge, and likely would have if Mancini had not shut Ramirez out.

Of course Whitaker is far superior to any southpaw Arguello matched. But the fact of him being a southpaw in and of itself would not provide any special advantage against this particular adversary. He'd open up an early lead, but he'd be dealing with a very patient chessmaster.


The Bernard Hopkins we have seen is essentially the same X that would have been in play during the 15 round era. I believe that Whitaker was a major beneficiary of the shorter limit, and that a change in his approach would have been necessary if he was to allow for the championship distance. Bodypunching has a far greater accumulative effect over 15 rounds than 12, so he had to contend far less with bodypunching than he would have had to deal with in 15 round matches. (This is the primary reason why I rate Locche, Benitez and Pep over Whitaker in defensive skill.) Pernell was a decision oriented boxer who was able to maintain a faster pace while primarily defending his head. Arguello frequently aimed for the sternum though, and Busceme said Alexis was quicker than he expected.

[Flea Man]

I'm assuming this is over the championship distance, rather than 12 rounds.

At his best, Duran was not somebody whose responses could be predicted and timed. He would have immediately set out to determine how Whitaker reacted defensively to a varietly of convincing feints. Hooks to the body (such as the one he brought world class welterweight contender Monroe Brooks down for the count with) are an obvious tactic to use on an elusive southpaw. Duran developed much of his inside attack in childhood streetfights, not in a boxing ring (this was greatly in evidence when he savaged young Davey Moore).

During their controversial draw, Whitaker was able to stun Chavez a few times, and outperform him on the inside. JCC also evidenced some signs of fatigue when they squared off. Peak Duran was indefatigible, and may have been the greatest infighter who ever lived. When overweight and way past his prime, even a peak Hagler and Barkley failed to crush him with sheer physicality.

Considering Duran's body attack and 15 round pedigree, we have no way of knowing how Whitaker might have performed down the stretch. In Montreal, Roberto knew that he had the scoring clinched after the first ten rounds, so he let up a bit over the final 15 minutes of action, allowing SRL to make up some of his insurmountable lead.

Palomino and SRL were tough and powerful hall of fame welterweights in their 20s, yet Duran dominated each on points over the first ten rounds he shared the ring with them. This discussion has to do with the peaking lightweight Duran, somebody likely far too strong for Whitaker to match physically.

Should Whitaker be competitive enough for the judging to be in doubt after 12 rounds, could he have the legs and energy to outbox and outmaneuver as necessary to secure a time limit judgment in his favor, or does Roberto's body attack and grueling pressure slow him down too much to produce an eye catching finish?

Whitaker was dropped from time to time, and I expect that Duran would send him to the floor at some point.


Even during his peak, many automatically assumed that continual movement and elusiveness was the way to beat Arguello (something widely believed about Louis as well). To actually succeed in doing this over 15 rounds is another matter though. Vilomar Fernandez upset Arguello over 10 rounds the first time they met, but it was a narrow decision. The argument can be made that Arguello was better over his first ten rounds with Fernandez than either Duran, Hilmer Kenty or Howard Davis, Jr. Vilomar was never able to evade like that over 15 rounds.

Handling lefties was something of a specialty for Arguello. Tam, Navarrete, Limon, Boza Edwards, Busceme, Watt and Ganigan were all taken care of in decisive fashion. Arguello could jab effectively against the southpaw stance, as well as shooting in straight rights and hooks to the body. He would have a tremendous reach advantage here.

Ramirez was able to drop him in losing a close decision, an outcome Alexis was hoping to avenge, and likely would have if Mancini had not shut Ramirez out.

Of course Whitaker is far superior to any southpaw Arguello matched. But the fact of him being a southpaw in and of itself would not provide any special advantage against this particular adversary. He'd open up an early lead, but he'd be dealing with a very patient chessmaster.


The Bernard Hopkins we have seen is essentially the same X that would have been in play during the 15 round era. I believe that Whitaker was a major beneficiary of the shorter limit, and that a change in his approach would have been necessary if he was to allow for the championship distance. Bodypunching has a far greater accumulative effect over 15 rounds than 12, so he had to contend far less with bodypunching than he would have had to deal with in 15 round matches. (This is the primary reason why I rate Locche, Benitez and Pep over Whitaker in defensive skill.) Pernell was a decision oriented boxer who was able to maintain a faster pace while primarily defending his head. Arguello frequently aimed for the sternum though, and Busceme said Alexis was quicker than he expected.


Ask anyone. I am as big an Arguello fan as you will meet on here. But I think Sweet Pea at 135 is wrong, ALL wrong for Alexis.

Alexis struggled with movers. You could argue that he wasn't in his prime against Marcel I guess, and the 10-round arguments you bring up are something I've discussed on here before; I've always assumed that in a 12-rounder Alexis would get on his bike earlier.

I think Pea would be too hard for even Arguello to time with the PERFECT shot. I also think Pea would be flurrying to the body and head on the inside and getting back out again, although he wouldn't be frustrating Arguello as he is one of the most patient fighters you will ever see.

I think Duran has the better chance. I always thought Duran would beat Arguello at LW, but recently I've started to think it may be a closer affair.

I'm probably wrong. I think Duran has the best chance of beating Pea, and even then I'm split. I ALWAYS say draw but to the recent thread we kinda' HAD to make a pick; I said Duran by close, close decision.

[ricardinho]

lots and lots of cocaine....

[sweet_scientist]

Even during his peak, many automatically assumed that continual movement and elusiveness was the way to beat Arguello (something widely believed about Louis as well). To actually succeed in doing this over 15 rounds is another matter though. Vilomar Fernandez upset Arguello over 10 rounds the first time they met, but it was a narrow decision. The argument can be made that Arguello was better over his first ten rounds with Fernandez than either Duran, Hilmer Kenty or Howard Davis, Jr. Vilomar was never able to evade like that over 15 rounds.

I haven't seen the Kenty or Davis fights, but there is not an argument at all as to whether Arguello did better than Duran against Vilomar over the first ten rounds. Duran all but shut Fernandez out. Arguello lost more rounds than he won over the ten they fought.


The Bernard Hopkins we have seen is essentially the same X that would have been in play during the 15 round era. I believe that Whitaker was a major beneficiary of the shorter limit, and that a change in his approach would have been necessary if he was to allow for the championship distance. Bodypunching has a far greater accumulative effect over 15 rounds than 12, so he had to contend far less with bodypunching than he would have had to deal with in 15 round matches. (This is the primary reason why I rate Locche, Benitez and Pep over Whitaker in defensive skill.) Pernell was a decision oriented boxer who was able to maintain a faster pace while primarily defending his head. Arguello frequently aimed for the sternum though, and Busceme said Alexis was quicker than he expected.I disagree with this, for the simple reason that Whitaker faced a lot of bodypunching-focused fighters throughout his time, and not one was able to even slow him up in the later rounds. If we saw Whitaker 'hanging on' and trying to survive some fights in the later rounds, then yes, perhaps we could suggest that he benefited from the 12 round limit. But as it stands, he fought plenty of fighters that tried to invest in the body, one of them being one of the greatest bodypunchers of all time in Chavez, and yes, as you accurately said it was Chavez that showed signs of tiredness - NOT Pea.

I can understand you saying well Whitaker simply didn't go 15 and hence we don't know what would have happened over 15, but then to say Bernard Hopkins would have been the same over 15 (when he himself didn't go 15) whereas Whitaker wouldn't seems like bullshit to me.

Regarding a 15 round Whitaker-Arguello fight, I suggest this: Arguello WILL hit him flush, Arguello WILL land to the body, Arguello WILL come on late in the fight - but Whitaker will be there, taking it, absorbing it, and standing at the end of 15 rounds victorious.

[GPater11093]

I haven't seen the Kenty or Davis fights, but there is not an argument at all as to whether Arguello did better than Duran against Vilomar over the first ten rounds. Duran all but shut Fernandez out. Arguello lost more rounds than he won over the ten they fought.


I disagree with this, for the simple reason that Whitaker faced a lot of bodypunching-focused fighters throughout his time, and not one was able to even slow him up in the later rounds. If we saw Whitaker 'hanging on' and trying to survive some fights in the later rounds, then yes, perhaps we could suggest that he benefited from the 12 round limit. But as it stands, he fought plenty of fighters that tried to invest in the body, one of them being one of the greatest bodypunchers of all time in Chavez, and yes, as you accurately said it was Chavez that showed signs of tiredness - NOT Pea.

I can understand you saying well Whitaker simply didn't go 15 and hence we don't know what would have happened over 15, but then to say Bernard Hopkins would have been the same (when he himself didn't go 15) whereas Whitaker wouldn't seems like plain old bullshit to me.

Regarding a 15 round Whitaker-Arguello fight, I suggest this: Arguello WILL hit him flush, Arguello WILL land to the body, Arguello WILL come on late in the fight - but Whitaker will be there, , taking it, absorbing it, and standing at the end of 15 rounds victorious.

just to play devils advocate could you see Arguello doing enough in the later rounds to maybe snatch a real close decision

i think Pea is all wrong for Alexis though

[sweet_scientist]

just to play devils advocate could you see Arguello doing enough in the later rounds to maybe snatch a real close decision

i think Pea is all wrong for Alexis though

Don't think Alexis will be close enough. Even if he say knocks him down twice throughout the fight, I still think Alexis is losing at least 9 rounds.

[GPater11093]

Don't think Alexis will be close enough. Even if he say knocks him down twice throughout the fight, I still think Alexis is losing at least 9 rounds.

yeh agree there. so something like 9-6 at its closest.

i think anyone at LW Durn has the best chance

[BoppaZoo]

I think people respect him because he is well versed in all areas of the sport. He doesn't dickride a fighter simply because of his nationality, or because he grew up watching the fighter when he was at his most impressionable.

It's true, we are all arm chair experts, but some have seen more from their arm chairs than others. Unlike most in the general forum, or those from the general forum that poke their heads in here for an occasional post that pertains to their favourite, or simply to stir shit, those in the classic forum try and go beyond their biases and form well rounded perspectives on the sport as a whole. For that, they are commendable posters.

As for predicting the outcomes of fights, that's always going to be very speculative and I'm sure even the most knowledgable boxing pundits get things wrong. On the flipside, I'm sure even the biggest moron can get a prediction right here and there.I love it. Everyone this is Sweet Pea's sidekick.

Whenever Sweet Pea cant answer the question of why is skinny ass cant handle tipping comps, Sweet Scientist backs him up by licking his nuts.

Look Sweet Pea has been wrong about many things i just find laughable that so many find his word gospel in here.

How the Harada topic for instance. Please even your basic newbie was right in saying Pacman was the best all time yet Sweet Pea was up in arms about Harada is the greatest and will never be suprassed.

What a load of frog shit. Why cos he spent to much time getting a following in here.

I dont couldnt give to fu<king shits if you dont like what i say or that i have other posters say this or that about me.

I call Sweet Pea out and he never answers to go up against any one in a tipping comp.

Which means one thing. He knows FUCK ALL ABOUT THE SPORT OF BOXING TODAY.

You KNOW THIS ERA.
Im still calling him out.

This is so much fun.

[BoppaZoo]

CANT EVERYONE SEE IM TRYING TO STIR THE SKINNY BASTARD UP.

Common Sweet just a answer.

[Flea Man]

well Harada still has a claim as best asian fighter of alltime to be honest. I think Pac will probably surpass him though.

You just seem like a sour cunt.

[BoppaZoo]

well Harada still has a claim as best asian fighter of alltime to be honest. I think Pac will probably surpass him though.

You just seem like a sour cunt.Its called Sarcasm and shit stiring.

I love winding him up. But lately he wont answer at all. Not even if i give him a little shit or a heap of shit..

Aussies we love sarcasm.

[Flea Man]

Its called Sarcasm and shit stiring.

I love winding him up. But lately he wont answer at all. Not even if i give him a little shit or a heap of shit..

Aussies we love sarcasm.

Fair enough, sorry I have been overusing the 'c' word lately:lol::good

[BoppaZoo]

Fair enough, sorry I have been overusing the 'c' word lately:lol::goodThats cool around my wife i have to say Country.:rofl:good

It works well around the kids. If im talking about someone i.e

Oh yeah that dirty country.

The kids think im talking about Mexico or somewhere like Thailand. LMAO.

[Flea Man]

Thats cool around my wife i have to say Country.:rofl:good

It works well around the kids. If im talking about someone i.e

Oh yeah that dirty country.

The kids think im talking about Mexico or somewhere like Thailand. LMAO.

:rofl bit harsh calling those countries 'dirty' mind:nono

[BoppaZoo]

:rofl bit harsh calling those countries 'dirty' mind:nonoOnly examples. Sorry to those out there from there. But hey they should use a bin.:lol:

[Flea Man]

Only examples. Sorry to those out there from there. But hey they should use a bin.:lol:

I shouldn't but :lol:

[Stonehands89]

I love it. Everyone this is Sweet Pea's sidekick.

Whenever Sweet Pea cant answer the question of why is skinny ass cant handle tipping comps, Sweet Scientist backs him up by licking his nuts.

Look Sweet Pea has been wrong about many things i just find laughable that so many find his word gospel in here.

How the Harada topic for instance. Please even your basic newbie was right in saying Pacman was the best all time yet Sweet Pea was up in arms about Harada is the greatest and will never be suprassed.

What a load of frog shit. Why cos he spent to much time getting a following in here.

I dont couldnt give to fu<king shits if you dont like what i say or that i have other posters say this or that about me.

I call Sweet Pea out and he never answers to go up against any one in a tipping comp.

Which means one thing. He knows FUCK ALL ABOUT THE SPORT OF BOXING TODAY.

You KNOW THIS ERA.
Im still calling him out.

This is so much fun.
So, now you attack Sweet Scientist? If you knew just how juvenile and low class you appear with these silly diatribes I'd hope that you would knock it off.

Take my word for it: knock it off. Establish a reputation by posting well-reasoned arguments that refrain from personal attacks. Over time, you'll earn the right to get fiery now and then. As it is now, you're only polluting this forum.

[Sweet Pea]

:lol:Shit. I've gone by this thread more than a few times in the past week, and this is honestly the first time I've noticed ANY of BoppaZoo's posts.

[Sweet Pea]

To answer your question Boppa, I never enter the tipping comps because what you say is true, I know shit about half of the fighters I'd be betting on. Sorry, but I'm just not going to invest the time necessary to analyze the skills of modern day second and third raters, which is what 90% of the matchups on those competitions involve. I research what I want to research, and that is what interests me. If you ever see me post on a topic you think I'm less than adequately learned in, please call me out. Otherwise, get a life and fuck off.:good

[prime]

Just rewatched Whitaker-Chávez, which I personally scored 8-4 for Pea.

BUT...

a) I had Chávez ahead after 6. His pressure and accurate powershots were successfully forcing Whitaker to a feisty, but insufficient, back-foot game.

b) Chávez mixed it up well: sneaky single lefts and rights along with body blows.

c) A big element in Pea's eventually tide-turning strategy, his vaunted "generalship", included good, old-fashioned spoiling tactics, i.e., pushing the opponent around the ring, spinning same around, and a couple of well-placed shots to the groin area. Chávez was too set in his heretofore extremely successful patient modus operandi to pay back in kind. A fiery Duran would be another story here, and I would say Pea would not have the benefit of these tactics against him.

d) Chávez was just about out of gas by the end of the 9th. But, mind you, this was the 88th fight for a 31-year-old break-in super featherweight fighting at 142 for the welterweight title. Anyone who witnessed prime Chávez cannot reasonably state the second half of the Alamo fight was anything close to vintage, yet, by credible accounts, el Gran Campeón still took the first half. 12-round punishment was a hallmark of Chávez's, and I can see him sealing a win on points at his peak.

e) Whitaker was probably not at his peak, either, but, in a word, was simply closer to it, in terms of weight, age and ring wear. He was losing to a mildly shopworn Chávez. Why? On account of power pressure, varied attack to body and head, quickness and accuracy.

f) Whitaker won fair and square, because, though using much spoiling, he won within the rules. Did he put on a "ghetto-whuppin'"? Hardly, IMO. Rounds 9 and 12 were close, I gave them to Pea, but I could see some judge rewarding aggression a bit more, scoring them for Chávez, and then there you have your draw. Time and weight were Chávez's most formidable obstacles that night.

g) Roberto Durán could, in his more savage style, deploy the same above anti-Pea elements and more handily win, IMO. At a certain point, you can only give up so much in power to your opponent, and I believe Durán could romp over Whitaker. The wild card here would be: could Durán keep his head? I believe a ready Roberto would.

h) You have to put Pea in the pressure cooker to beat him, so here I also like the nonstop punching Henry Armstrong.

i) Benny Leonard was Whitaker's peer, defensively, but having more pop to his punches, could IMO edge out a win, as well.

j) Greats such as Argüello and Ortiz are perhaps a tad too slow and textbook to get the job done.

k) Very few men at this weight could enjoy comfortable odds over Whitaker at this weight.

l) Pea is great.

[sweet_scientist]

Just rewatched Whitaker-Chávez, which I personally scored 8-4 for Pea.

BUT...

a) I had Chávez ahead after 6. His pressure and accurate powershots were successfully forcing Whitaker to a feisty, but insufficient, back-foot game.

b) Chávez mixed it up well: sneaky single lefts and rights along with body blows.

c) A big element in Pea's eventually tide-turning strategy, his vaunted "generalship", included good, old-fashioned spoiling tactics, i.e., pushing the opponent around the ring, spinning same around, and a couple of well-placed shots to the groin area. Chávez was too set in his heretofore extremely successful patient modus operandi to pay back in kind. A fiery Duran would be another story here, and I would say Pea would not have the benefit of these tactics against him.

d) Chávez was just about out of gas by the end of the 9th. But, mind you, this was the 88th fight for a 31-year-old break-in super featherweight fighting at 142 for the welterweight title. Anyone who witnessed prime Chávez cannot reasonably state the second half of the Alamo fight was anything close to vintage, yet, by credible accounts, el Gran Campeón still took the first half. 12-round punishment was a hallmark of Chávez's, and I can see him sealing a win on points at his peak.

e) Whitaker was probably not at his peak, either, but, in a word, was simply closer to it, in terms of weight, age and ring wear. He was losing to a mildly shopworn Chávez. Why? On account of power pressure, varied attack to body and head, quickness and accuracy.

f) Whitaker won fair and square, because, though using much spoiling, he won within the rules. Did he put on a "ghetto-whuppin'"? Hardly, IMO. Rounds 9 and 12 were close, I gave them to Pea, but I could see some judge rewarding aggression a bit more, scoring them for Chávez, and then there you have your draw. Time and weight were Chávez's most formidable obstacles that night.

g) Roberto Durán could, in his more savage style, deploy the same above anti-Pea elements and more handily win, IMO. At a certain point, you can only give up so much in power to your opponent, and I believe Durán could romp over Whitaker. The wild card here would be: could Durán keep his head? I believe a ready Roberto would.

h) You have to put Pea in the pressure cooker to beat him, so here I also like the nonstop punching Henry Armstrong.

i) Benny Leonard was Whitaker's peer, defensively, but having more pop to his punches, could IMO edge out a win, as well.

j) Greats such as Argüello and Ortiz are perhaps a tad too slow and textbook to get the job done.

k) Very few men at this weight could enjoy comfortable odds over Whitaker at this weight.

l) Pea is great.

Chavez started much, much quicker in this fight than he did against any other boxer-type in his career imo. Him not being as sharp in the second half of hte fight might have something to do with how aggressive he was early. Just to point out, Chavez did NOT throw more leather against Taylor than he did against Pea, the numbers were the same. And he actually did a lot more air swinging against Whitaker, which might have slowed him down.

Then again, the beating Whitaker put on him through rounds 6-9 might have something to do with how slow he looked. Who had ever worked him to the body and head like that to see how he would react?

[BoppaZoo]

To answer your question Boppa, I never enter the tipping comps because what you say is true, I know shit about half of the fighters I'd be betting on. Sorry, but I'm just not going to invest the time necessary to analyze the skills of modern day second and third raters, which is what 90% of the matchups on those competitions involve. I research what I want to research, and that is what interests me. If you ever see me post on a topic you think I'm less than adequately learned in, please call me out. Otherwise, get a life and fuck off.:goodAnd there is your answer.

Im a boxing Sweet Pea has just said to all you but.

AND THATS A HUGE F*&KING BUT.

I dont watch or like todays boxing enough.

So you can tell me to fuck of but i say you are either a fan or a fan of certain area's.

I fu<king E Pernell Whitaker.

I will leave the classic forum now and the fans who love old fighters as do i.

So your God of the classic forum the one that you take oh so serious doesnt even watch fighters of today.

:lol::lol: Welcome to classic where any dickhead can be a expert.:rofl

[Sweet Pea]

And there is your answer.

Im a boxing Sweet Pea has just said to all you but.

AND THATS A HUGE F*&KING BUT.

I dont watch or like todays boxing enough.

So you can tell me to fuck of but i say you are either a fan or a fan of certain area's.

I fu<king E Pernell Whitaker.

I will leave the classic forum now and the fans who love old fighters as do i.

So your God of the classic forum the one that you take oh so serious doesnt even watch fighters of today.

:lol::lol: Welcome to classic where any dickhead can be a expert.:rofl

I never said I didn't watch current fighters. You have a bad habit of twisting my words around to fit your own delusional agenda.

[Robbi]

I never said I didn't watch current fighters. You have a bad habit of twisting my words around to fit your own delusional agenda.

Another one bites the dust.

[BoppaZoo]

Another one bites the dust.:lol: U think i will go away.

MMMMMMMMMMMM hahaahahahahaha. Ill be around, watching waiting.

Robbi hows Sweet Peas nuts. Most people in here have the left over taste of nuts from boxers not posters.:lol:

[BoppaZoo]

I never said I didn't watch current fighters. You have a bad habit of twisting my words around to fit your own delusional agenda. Ill get back to the topic of this thread. Cant believe this thread is still going though.

Whitaker had all the tools every classic poster knows what he had. I will only say this.

If he had Pacquiao's offense. No shit Pernell would be talked about in the same sentence as Ray Robinson.

NO SHIT.

Coke does funny things to humans, Whitaker is a example.

[PopeJackson]

Only cocaine beat him. That's about it.

[snell]

And there is your answer.

Im a boxing Sweet Pea has just said to all you but.

AND THATS A HUGE F*&KING BUT.

I dont watch or like todays boxing enough.

So you can tell me to fuck of but i say you are either a fan or a fan of certain area's.

I fu<king E Pernell Whitaker.

I will leave the classic forum now and the fans who love old fighters as do i.

So your God of the classic forum the one that you take oh so serious doesnt even watch fighters of today.

:lol::lol: Welcome to classic where any dickhead can be a expert.:rofl


:lol::lol::lol::lol:

ask him why he agreed on pac not lasting 5 rounds with hatton?? :think:rofl:rofl

[snell]

Ill get back to the topic of this thread. Cant believe this thread is still going though.

Whitaker had all the tools every classic poster knows what he had. I will only say this.

If he had Pacquiao's offense. No shit Pernell would be talked about in the same sentence as Ray Robinson.

NO SHIT.

Coke does funny things to humans, Whitaker is a example.

:lol::lol::lol:

[Flea Man]

Whittaker has as good offence if not more (due to his variety) as Pac. Just not as much power.

[teeto]

BoppaZoo, sorry mate but you're being a proper prick. Whatever if you got this hang-up with Sweet Pea, but attacking the whole classic forum now? Don't piss me off now, just leave it and post on thread topics if you don;t mind.

[ricardoparker93]

Whittaker has as good offence if not more (due to his variety) as Pac. Just not as much power.

WTF ! Fleaman you really are Whitakers little bum boy arent you, :rofl:rofl. Whitaker had a better offence? Great jab, and he threw punches from strange angles but his offence was completely jab orientated. When a guy really came after him, later rounds of the Nelson fight for example his lack of power really came to the fore. Whitaker trumps a Pac in defence, generalship etc but I would like you to name a power punch that Pacquiao throws which Whitaker throws better

[GPater11093]

exactly Teeto a fucking dickhead hes being. Ruins it for the rest of us.

Prime in response to your post point I)

Do you really think Benny leonard was Whittaker peer defensivly. I think he lacked the head movement of Whittaker

[sweet_scientist]

WTF ! Fleaman you really are Whitakers little bum boy arent you, :rofl:rofl. Whitaker had a better offence? Great jab, and he threw punches from strange angles but his offence was completely jab orientated. When a guy really came after him, later rounds of the Nelson fight for example his lack of power really came to the fore. Whitaker trumps a Pac in defence, generalship etc but I would like you to name a power punch that Pacquiao throws which Whitaker throws better

I think Whitaker is a better body puncher, quite clearly.

[Sweet Pea]

Whitaker is a better inside fighter than Pacquiao, period.

[Sweet Pea]

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

ask him why he agreed on pac not lasting 5 rounds with hatton?? :think:rofl:rofl
I picked Pacquiao to stop Hatton within 9.

[teeto]

I don't know if Sweet Pea picked Hatton to win at some point over Pacquiao, but even if he did, i do remember him saying the day before the fight that he was surprised that so many people were giving Hatton a chance because he simply isn't good enough to keep Pacquiao of him.

[snell]

Whitaker is a better inside fighter than Pacquiao, period.


the dumbest shit i heard in my life... :lol::lol::lol:

you could have said "better ballerina". :good

your boy mostly stayed outside waiting to duck, hit, back step and clown. pac

would fuck him inside.. PERIOD. :deal

[WhataRock]

the dumbest shit i heard in my life... :lol::lol::lol:

you could have said "better ballerina". :good

your boy mostly stayed outside waiting to duck, hit, back step and clown. pac

would fuck him inside.. PERIOD. :deal


Havent watched much of him have you.

[stevebhoy87]

the dumbest shit i heard in my life... :lol::lol::lol:

you could have said "better ballerina". :good

your boy mostly stayed outside waiting to duck, hit, back step and clown. pac

would fuck him inside.. PERIOD. :deal

A bit like a much better inside fighter than pac in chavez is fucking him up in this clip after 1.40 :nut


WcXtxaualiM


Maybe you should watch whitaker fight a bit more

[teeto]

the dumbest shit i heard in my life... :lol::lol::lol:

you could have said "better ballerina". :good

your boy mostly stayed outside waiting to duck, hit, back step and clown. pac

would fuck him inside.. PERIOD. :deal
Wow.