Wlad Klitschko KO4 Joe Louis - P4P and H2H

[BewareofDawg]

OH MY GOD!! This fight wouldn't even be close. Wlads jab would feel like an overhand right from the 'Cruiserweights' Louis was accustomed to fighting....only sharper and stronger. It would be around the 4th that Wlad would land his Straight Right and send Louis into the land of make-believe. :deal :deal :deal :deal



Thoughts :think

[Relentless]

please jack just shut the hell up.

[Napoleon]

BewareofDawg and Relentless how many fights of Joe Louis have you seen?

Me: None, so I won't answer to this thread.

[peter5]

OH MY GOD!! This fight wouldn't even be close. Wlads jab would feel like an overhand right from the 'Cruiserweights' Louis was accustomed to fighting....only sharper and stronger. It would be around the 4th that Wlad would land his Straight Right and send Louis into the land of make-believe. :deal :deal :deal :deal



Thoughts :think

Dog, are you serious? 4 rounds? Im not saying Louis would win, or lose, but man! And, you didnt pick my song for your ring entrance! By the way, you had your fight yet? howd you get along?

[BewareofDawg]

BewareofDawg and Relentless how many fights of Joe Louis have you seen?

Me: None, so I won't answer to this thread.
A good amount. I was convinced after seeing him fight Billy Conn last night.

[BewareofDawg]

Dog, are you serious? 4 rounds? Im not saying Louis would win, or lose, but man! And, you didnt pick my song for your ring entrance! By the way, you had your fight yet? howd you get along?
The guy backed out. We tried to get another, he wouldn't take it on short notice. I'm fighting in NOvember now :deal

[RUSKULL]

Joe Louis was one of my favorite boxers but it's still hard to picture him beating Wladimir, Lewis or any good big HW who knows how to use his size advantage.

For an idea of the huge size difference you can watch Joe Louis vs. Primo Carnera. Joe KO's Primo but Wladimir & Lennox are far better fighters than Carnera ever was.

I'm not saying it couldn't happen but it's just not likely IMO.

[Napoleon]

BewareofDawg and Relentless how many fights of Joe Louis have you seen?

Me: None, so I won't answer to this thread.

Edit: I saw Louis vs. Marciano.

[RUSKULL]

A good amount. I was convinced after seeing him fight Billy Conn last night.

That was not Joe at his best.

[KayEpps]

If Wlad get's caught with a punch from Smokin Joe - how does he handle it? I don't think he does that good if he gets caught.

[peter5]

if Wlad used his jab plenty to tee him up, I can see it happening, it just sounds too easy, but hey, ive seen worse upsets!

[peter5]

If Wlad get's caught with a punch from Smokin Joe - how does he handle it? I don't think he does that good if he gets caught.

Thats a good point, Wlad aint exactly granite chin man!:lol:

[RonnieHornschuh]

well, louis was a powerful fighter in his era. by today's standards he wouldn't be considered as one of the most powerful punchers. and since we know that wlad has only problems with huge punchers, this would be no problem no him. louis has never seen a big guy like wlad with such good technical abilities and precision.

[Sai]

head 2 head wlad would win. If louis was louis now born in 1979 hed hammer the fuck out of wlad.

h2h lennox would beat any hw, but thats not the way it works when you consider things historicaly

[boxingcar]

Simple...let's compare , prime for prime)
what's Louis' reach advantage?
his size?
weight?

now compare that to a 2007 HW , who can keep his distance all night long , and who also happens to have a super solid jab.

take a guess...

[sthomas]

Lets have the bought in 1970. As I have said before, a time capsule fight is a fantasy, so I go all the way with the fantasy and preditct the size that each man would be in the particular year of the fight. In 1970 Joe would be about 6'2" 215-220, Klit would be about 6'5" and 230.

Joe would most likely take care of Klit in the middle to late rounds once he figures things out and starts landing some heavy leather, but he will take some big damage along the way. Of course the Billy Conn reference is a good one leaves a big question mark. However, because of Joe's power and skill, and Klits chin doubts, gotta go with Joe. If Klit had a better chin I'd call it a pick em'.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Lets have the bought in 1970. As I have said before, a time capsule fight is a fantasy, so I go all the way with the fantasy and preditct the size that each man would be in the particular year of the fight. In 1970 Joe would be about 6'2" 215-220, Klit would be about 6'5" and 230.

Joe would most likely take care of Klit in the middle to late rounds once he figures things out and starts landing some heavy leather, but he will take some big damage along the way. Of course the Billy Conn reference is a good one leaves a big question mark. However, because of Joe's power and skill, and Klits chin doubts, gotta go with Joe. If Klit had a better chin I'd call it a pick em'.
WTF?:rofl So, time travel has morphed these men into different human being's all together?:lol: What you are saying makes no sense.

During his prime Joe Louis was 190-200 pounds. He was 6'2" 196-200 pounds to be about on the average. Wladimir would be 6'6 1/2" 243 pounds on the average.

That is who would be fighting. Not some different creatures created through a time machine. You can't take away height and weight from a guy, and then pretend that he would still be the same fighter. If Wlad was shorter, and lighter... then he would be a different fighter.

[Decker]

BewareofDawg, you have more guts than I do to start a thread like this... I completely agree w/you, but the fans who glorify the past and their HWs will be attacking. Louis was great for his era, but the skilled guys he faught would be CWs today - and he struggled w/many of them. Can you imagine a tub of lard like Galento - who trained on plates of pasta & a six pack - decking LL or K bros? Most (all?) of the 200+ pounders he faught would be cannon fodder for guys like Chagaev, Iggy, Oleg, or Peter. And Joe was chinny !

head 2 head wlad would win. If louis was louis now born in 1979 hed hammer the fuck out of wlad. Why would Louis being born later make any, never mind such a big difference :blood Would his 1979 jaw be much better? :roll: Or are you implying he'd be much bigger? Now you're into the 225 lb Marciano or Dempsey specualtions. I've done them myself. But I'm analyzing the 6'1" 200 lb Joe Louis vs Wlad or other top current HWs. :deal Joe would be stopped. The only way JL can be considered a top 5 all time HW is p4p. Same for other top "HWs" of the past.

[peter5]

its all subjective anyway, nonone can actually preidcit the outcome as it'll never happen!

[peter5]

It is, to me, a pick em fight thought, ita ll depends on the approaches of the fighters, if JL tests Wlads chin, it could be all over quickly, but if wlad boxes and uses his jab, itll be a bad night for Joe!

[Sputnik44]

If Wlad get's caught with a punch from Smokin Joe - how does he handle it? I don't think he does that good if he gets caught.


Are we talking Joe Loius or Joe Frazier????? Smokin Joe would be Frazier
the Brown Bomber would be Joe Louis

either man loses to Wlad...however if he gets caught flush by either guy he might be in trouble

I doubt seriously that Wlad would stick his chin out and wait to be hit...so Barring that wlad wins both by KO

[Decker]

It is, to me, a pick em fight thought, ita ll depends on the approaches of the fighters, if JL tests Wlads chin, it could be all over quickly, but if wlad boxes and uses his jab, itll be a bad night for Joe! If Wlad tests Joe's chin it'll be over even quicker :yep

If Wlad can get up from Peter's rabbit punches or Sanders bombs he might survive a JL KD.

[SteveO]

Louis losing to Marciano was Joe Louis in a sorry state and probably already brain damaged at that point.

Joe Louis is a beautiful fighter to watch. He has some great skills. But by today's standards, he would be a big cruiser or the smallest of the heavies. As much as I love the man, and being from Michigan has a lot to do with that, I don't see him as being too competitive amongst the bigger HW fighters.

[box03]

I understand Wlads bigger and more powerful but fighters back then were tougher, let me ask you this how many guys on here sees Wlad holding the title for 12 years let alone 12 more months. Louis was a great who would out box Wlad on his best day, the man was so accurate when thought fighters like Baer and Shmelling Louis knew exactly where to hit you to knock you out cold. Loius would end up using Wlads size against him he was that good, and yes he would knockout a panic attacked proned fighter like Wladimir Klitschko.

[Marnoff]

If Wlad get's caught with a punch from Smokin Joe - how does he handle it? I don't think he does that good if he gets caught.

Well, we're talking about Joe Louis, not Joe Frazier.

[Dorfmeister]

Joe Louis, the best hwt of all time? Wlad better than Louis? It's like you want people to call you names but I rather see you writing more xtremely funny threads like this one and play Alice in Wladerland - you r a very funny guy bro!

[Marnoff]

Lets have the bought in 1970. As I have said before, a time capsule fight is a fantasy, so I go all the way with the fantasy and preditct the size that each man would be in the particular year of the fight. In 1970 Joe would be about 6'2" 215-220, Klit would be about 6'5" and 230.

Joe would most likely take care of Klit in the middle to late rounds once he figures things out and starts landing some heavy leather, but he will take some big damage along the way. Of course the Billy Conn reference is a good one leaves a big question mark. However, because of Joe's power and skill, and Klits chin doubts, gotta go with Joe. If Klit had a better chin I'd call it a pick em'.

I'd rather not physically alter them....

[Marnoff]

I would have my money on Klitschko.

[Guru_Too_You]

OH MY GOD!! This fight wouldn't even be close. Wlads jab would feel like an overhand right from the 'Cruiserweights' Louis was accustomed to fighting....only sharper and stronger. It would be around the 4th that Wlad would land his Straight Right and send Louis into the land of make-believe. :deal :deal :deal :deal



Thoughts :think

Pound for pound, there has never been a heavyweight that combined skill and technique like Joe Louis and there never will be another one.

[FlatNose]

If size meant all that much, then Jess Willard, Primo Carnera, and Nico Valuev would be retired undefeated all time greats.Louis would flatten Wlad with the first six inch straight right that touched his jaw.

[2smart4u]

BewareofDawg, you have more guts than I do to start a thread like this... I completely agree w/you, but the fans who glorify the past and their HWs will be attacking. Louis was great for his era, but the skilled guys he faught would be CWs today - and he struggled w/many of them. Can you imagine a tub of lard like Galento - who trained on plates of pasta & a six pack - decking LL or K bros? Most (all?) of the 200+ pounders he faught would be cannon fodder for guys like Chagaev, Iggy, Oleg, or Peter. And Joe was chinny !

Why would Louis being born later make any, never mind such a big difference :blood Would his 1979 jaw be much better? :roll: Or are you implying he'd be much bigger? Now you're into the 225 lb Marciano or Dempsey specualtions. I've done them myself. But I'm analyzing the 6'1" 200 lb Joe Louis vs Wlad or other top current HWs. :deal Joe would be stopped. The only way JL can be considered a top 5 all time HW is p4p. Same for other top "HWs" of the past.:patsch Finally some common sence ! :good

[2smart4u]

If size meant all that much, then Jess Willard, Primo Carnera, and Nico Valuev would be retired undefeated all time greats.Louis would flatten Wlad with the first six inch straight right that touched his jaw.:lol: :patsch JOEs six inch punch wouldnt even reach the guy ! SIZE PLUS SKILL is a BIG ADVANTAGE ! Thats why there are weight classes ! In fact if there were IQ classes on this board this point wouldnt be debated so much !:yep

[achillesthegreat]

I can't help but watch Brock v Wlad and think Louis could and would spark Wlad. I saw certain things that developed my thoughts. I always thought Wlad would be a BITCH for more or less anyone. I still do, but not AS MUCH!

Brock lands a scoring shot but Louis lands a lights out shot.

Wlads still coming into his own. Let him develop, still much to do.

The only thing that can be said is that Wlad isn't the finished article and until he is, its not worth discussing yet.

[El Bombasto]

Yeah bad match-up for Louis, but that I think any unbiased boxing fan will tell you that Joe is the greatest heavyweight ever, based on his accomplishments, while Wlad still has a lot of work cut out for him if he even wants to be considered 'great'

[box03]

If size meant all that much, then Jess Willard, Primo Carnera, and Nico Valuev would be retired undefeated all time greats.Louis would flatten Wlad with the first six inch straight right that touched his jaw. 100 % true what you just said. If Wlad fought back in the 30s and 40s his chin would be exposed more times than Paris Hiltons pussy. Wlad would be the joke of the division if he fought back then, its just goes too show you how bad the Heavywieght division really is right now.

[El Bombasto]

If size meant all that much, then Jess Willard, Primo Carnera, and Nico Valuev would be retired undefeated all time greats.Louis would flatten Wlad with the first six inch straight right that touched his jaw.

Those gents are all lacking in ability and fundamentals. Size is pretty much all they have, the same cannot be said about Wlad.

[Decker]

If size meant all that much, then Jess Willard, Primo Carnera, and Nico Valuev would be retired undefeated all time greats.Louis would flatten Wlad with the first six inch straight right that touched his jaw. Yes your "logic" is flawless :roll: A 200 lb CWs 6 inch punch would flatten a top modern HW because the 200 lb CW KO'd other CWs and unskilled big guys like Carnera??? Uh huh :nut Wlad is just as big as Primo but much more skilled - bigger puncher too. Some hater suggested that those of us that think this way are "nuts". You're denying basic physics with your bias for past HWs, making non arguments, and we're the loons :nut :-( Take off the rose colored glasses and get back to us.

Like I've said before, would love to bet you guys on these match ups in a time machine. You'd stop the bets and excuses faster than LL, K bros or other modern HWs would expose - and KTFO - your idols. :yep

[Decker]

...In fact if there were IQ classes on this board this point wouldnt be debated so much !:yep Shhhhh, don't rattle their cage :rofl :lol:

[Guru_Too_You]

Yes your "logic" is flawless :roll: A 200 lb CWs 6 inch punch would flatten a top modern HW because the 200 lb CW KO'd other CWs and unskilled big guys like Carnera??? Uh huh :nut Wlad is just as big as Primo but much more skilled - bigger puncher too. Some hater suggested that those of us that think this way are "nuts". You're denying basic physics with your bias for past HWs, making non arguments, and we're the loons :nut :-( Take off the rose colored glasses and get back to us.

Like I've said before, would love to bet you guys on these match ups in a time machine. You'd stop the bets and excuses faster than LL, K bros or other modern HWs would expose - and KTFO - your idols. :yep

Expose them? Expose them as what exactly?

And if Davaryl Williamson can put Wlad on his ass, you'd better believe that Louis could not only put him on his ass, but take him out with a single punch.

[2smart4u]

Yes your "logic" is flawless :roll: A 200 lb CWs 6 inch punch would flatten a top modern HW because the 200 lb CW KO'd other CWs and unskilled big guys like Carnera??? Uh huh :nut Wlad is just as big as Primo but much more skilled - bigger puncher too. Some hater suggested that those of us that think this way are "nuts". You're denying basic physics with your bias for past HWs, making non arguments, and we're the loons :nut :-( Take off the rose colored glasses and get back to us.

Like I've said before, would love to bet you guys on these match ups in a time machine. You'd stop the bets and excuses faster than LL, K bros or other modern HWs would expose - and KTFO - your idols. :yep:deal :yep

[Executioner]

Louis starches him with one punch.

[box03]

Expose them? Expose them as what exactly?

And if Davaryl Williamson can put Wlad on his ass, you'd better believe that Louis could not only put him on his ass, but take him out with a single punch. yeah I got that fight on tape, Wlad was knocked down by a fucking jab. Louis was a master boxer while Wlads just the best of a bad heavywieght division, the people who say that Wlad would beat joe have to be kidding themselves. Yeah thats see if Wlad could hold the title for 10 more years, I bet he losses it in the next 2 years.

[Decker]

Expose them? Expose them as what exactly? As overrated.

And if Davaryl Williamson can put Wlad on his ass, you'd better believe that Louis could not only put him on his ass, but take him out with a single punch. If Tony Galento can stagger and drop a prime JL you'd better believe Wlad would stop Louis with a half jab/hook. Joe must have been edgy and impressed watching Galento butcher a plate of meatballs :rofl

See, this is easy. We can make these comps all day long. For his era & size, Joe Louis was a great fighter. Why can't you give Wlad his due? Both fighters were/are gracious sportsmen, not goofy "gangstas".

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

If size meant all that much, then Jess Willard, Primo Carnera, and Nico Valuev would be retired undefeated all time greats.Louis would flatten Wlad with the first six inch straight right that touched his jaw.
Nobody that you mentioned is even close to Wlad's league. So, what you are saying makes no sense. Nobody said that you can take any 6'7" guy off of the street and he would beat old smaller champions. What they are saying is that if you take Wladimir Klitschko..... who happens to be the #1 heavyweight in the world today, and a former Gold Medalist as well (proving his great boxing ability).... if you take Wlad who is a great Champion in his own right, and match him up against a great Champion of the past, who was amazing for his time, but would be a cruiserweight today..... then logic would tell you that Wlad with his size AS WELL AS HIS great technical boxing abilities, would come out the winner.

We aren't just talking about some big guy. We are talking a very big Heavyweight Champion, who has a great jab... a great right hand with one punch knockout power in it... a great left hook with one punch knockout power in it... top footwork for a man of his size... and fights with superior intelligence.


The comment that you made about Louis flattening Wlad with the first 6 inch punch that touched his jaw just shows your ignorance and bias.

[Guru_Too_You]

As overrated.

If Tony Galento can stagger and drop a prime JL you'd better believe Wlad would stop Louis with a half jab/hook. Joe must have been edgy and impressed watching Galento butcher a plate of meatballs :rofl

See, this is easy. We can make these comps all day long. For his era & size, Joe Louis was a great fighter. Why can't you give Wlad his due? Both fighters were/are gracious sportsmen, not goofy "gangstas".

And I imagine that a fighter that utilizes a simple jab and stright right hand beats the most technically apt HW of all time easily right?

I think that just because Wlad can actually move his feet and he's the size that he is, you immediately assume he makes easy work of Louis.

I'll tell you one thing, Louis would have made easier work of Calvin Brock, thats for damn sure.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Pound for pound, there has never been a heavyweight that combined skill and technique like Joe Louis and there never will be another one.
I think that a Prime Holyfield matches up very well with him head to head. And there wouldn't even be a significant size difference.

[Guru_Too_You]

I think that a Prime Holyfield matches up very well with him head to head. And there wouldn't even be a significant size difference.

And if they are both in their absolute peak, I think the bout would look just like Toney-Holyfield.

Louis had the better overall skills, and I don't think that Evander had the pop to put him out with one punch. That being said, Louis systematically breaks him down just like Toney did, only Louis could do it to a prime Holyfield for certain.

[box03]

Nobody that you mentioned is even close to Wlad's league. So, what you are saying makes no sense. Nobody said that you can take any 6'7" guy off of the street and he would beat old smaller champions. What they are saying is that if you take Wladimir Klitschko..... who happens to be the #1 heavyweight in the world today, and a former Gold Medalist as well (proving his great boxing ability).... if you take Wlad who is a great Champion in his own right, and match him up against a great Champion of the past, who was amazing for his time, but would be a cruiserweight today..... then logic would tell you that Wlad with his size AS WELL AS HIS great technical boxing abilities, would come out the winner.

We aren't just talking about some big guy. We are talking a very big Heavyweight Champion, who has a great jab... a great right hand with one punch knockout power in it... a great left hook with one punch knockout power in it... top footwork for a man of his size... and fights with superior intelligence.


The comment that you made about Louis flattening Wlad with the first 6 inch punch that touched his jaw just shows your ignorance and bias. Holyfields a blown up Heavywieght and he had competitive matches with Big guys like Bowe, Lewis, and Foreman who many believe are better than Wlad including myself. And I think most people would say Loius is a better boxer with comparable power to Holyfield.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

And I imagine that a fighter that utilizes a simple jab and stright right hand beats the most technically apt HW of all time easily right?

I think that just because Wlad can actually move his feet and he's the size that he is, you immediately assume he makes easy work of Louis.

I'll tell you one thing, Louis would have made easier work of Calvin Brock, thats for damn sure.
Are you forgetting Louis vs Schmeling 1?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

And Max didn't have anything close to the physical capabilities of Wladimir Klitschko.

Just look at Louis and be honest with yourself. The man would not even be a big cruiserweight. He could cut water weight and fight at Light Heavyweight.

[Decker]

yeah I got that fight on tape, Wlad was knocked down by a fucking jab. Yeah JL was stopped by a ring worn CWT (Max), nearly stopped in his prime by a tub of goo (Tony G), got gift decisions, and looked 88 years old (was 38) vs 184 lb Marciano. Sure, he was near invincible. :nut :lol:

Louis was a master boxer while Wlads just the best of a bad heavywieght division, HW bad today...HW bad today... :tired and :dead Your programming is stuck in an infinite dofus loop.

the people who say that Wlad would beat joe have to be kidding themselves. Yeah thats see if Wlad could hold the title for 10 more years, I bet he losses it in the next 2 years. Todays era is much more competitive, it's world wide. JL's era was actually quite limited and weak, but I don't want to confuse you with facts. :yep

[cross_trainer]

Are you forgetting Louis vs Schmeling 1?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

And Max didn't have anything close to the physical capabilities of Wladimir Klitschko.

Just look at Louis and be honest with yourself. The man would not even be a big cruiserweight. He could cut water weight and fight at Light Heavyweight.

Louis WAS cutting water weight.

Fighters in Louis's era preferred getting down in weight rather than going up, even for heavyweight fights. If Louis's regimen was less intense (and it would cut down somewhat given a 12 round distance rather than 15) then he would fall more closely into the 210-220 lb. range. About the same size as Brock or Holyfield.

Re Schmeling: He was a more technically proficient fighter than Klitschko
"pound for pound" (mind you, Klitschko is great for a man his size). Schmeling had a very good eye for strategic weaknesses and an awkward style to allow him to exploit them.

[cross_trainer]

I think that a Prime Holyfield matches up very well with him head to head. And there wouldn't even be a significant size difference.

Holyfield also matches up well with Wladimir head-to-head, despite (as you say) being about the same size as Joe Louis.

[box03]

Yeah JL was stopped by a ring worn CWT (Max), nearly stopped in his prime by a tub of goo (Tony G), got gift decisions, and looked 88 years old (was 38) vs 184 lb Marciano. Sure, he was near invincible. :nut :lol:

HW bad today...HW bad today... :tired and :dead Your programming is stuck in an infinite dofus loop.

Todays era is much more competitive, it's world wide. JL's era was actually quite limited and weak, but I don't want to confuse you with facts. :yep you dont want to compare losses look at who floored Wlad 4 times, a fucking journeymen who looked like mma guy with those looping ass punches and oh yeah dont let me forget that ATG heavywieght Ross Purity who is like 29-20 now. Face it Wlad has the one of the worst chins of any Heavywieght champs I ever seen. His chin gets taped and it looks like hes having a having a massive heart attack in the ring, yeah im sure he will beat ATG like Louis.

[Still~style]

wlad is very good and i defiitely count on him to be competitive aainst any 'atg'. but louis was a big guy with huge punching power. the guy was a fucking beast. to say wlad would knock him out in the 4th is not ony unbeleivable, but downright ignorant.

[Executioner]

Expose them? Expose them as what exactly?

And if Davaryl Williamson can put Wlad on his ass, you'd better believe that Louis could not only put him on his ass, but take him out with a single punch.

hey now Guru..two can play this game though. Louis did not have the greatest set of whiskers in the game. He was dropped, I believe, 10 times in his career by far lesser punchers than Wlad.

That said, I still see Joe knocking him the fuc kout. :yep

[Vanboxingfan]

BewareofDawg, you have more guts than I do to start a thread like this... I completely agree w/you, but the fans who glorify the past and their HWs will be attacking. Louis was great for his era, but the skilled guys he faught would be CWs today - and he struggled w/many of them. Can you imagine a tub of lard like Galento - who trained on plates of pasta & a six pack - decking LL or K bros? Most (all?) of the 200+ pounders he faught would be cannon fodder for guys like Chagaev, Iggy, Oleg, or Peter. And Joe was chinny !

Why would Louis being born later make any, never mind such a big difference :blood Would his 1979 jaw be much better? :roll: Or are you implying he'd be much bigger? Now you're into the 225 lb Marciano or Dempsey specualtions. I've done them myself. But I'm analyzing the 6'1" 200 lb Joe Louis vs Wlad or other top current HWs. :deal Joe would be stopped. The only way JL can be considered a top 5 all time HW is p4p. Same for other top "HWs" of the past.

I agree with everything but the last comment. I do think career accomplishments enter into the picture as much or more so than ficticious match ups. Certainly on a H2H basis Louis wouldn't rank too high and would likely loose to Wlad, but on a P4P basis and on his longivity on the top and his domination of his contempories, he's much higher than Wlad, at least currently.

[Decker]

you dont want to compare losses look at who floored Wlad 4 times, a fucking journeymen who looked like mma guy with those looping ass punches and oh yeah dont let me forget that ATG heavywieght Ross Purity who is like 29-20 now. Face it Wlad has the one of the worst chins of any Heavywieght champs I ever seen. His chin gets taped and it looks like hes having a having a massive heart attack in the ring, yeah im sure he will beat ATG like Louis. Look I've read your stuff before. I know you're a hater of the current HW scene - and its not hard to figure out why. Your argumets are weak beacuse you exaggerate to make a point - maybe because you're not sure of them. To call Sanders a journeyman is silly. The not so serious Sanders stopped many recent HWs, and was a dangerous quick striking lefty with some power. Wlad's chin, like LL, is average. If Wlad has a bad chin then so does Joe Louis. You can't have it both ways except in your own world.

Actually Brock, Brew, and Austin looked like the ones having heart attacks vs Wlad - or maybe shot with a rifle is a better description. :rofl You need to watch more fights ! Tell me what really bothers you about Wlad being the best, the BEST HW. C'mon it won't hurt. :yep

[BewareofDawg]

I think that a Prime Holyfield matches up very well with him head to head. And there wouldn't even be a significant size difference.
Yeah, there would be....Holyfield would be bigger.

[cross_trainer]

Look I've read your stuff before. I know you're a hater of the current HW scene - and its not hard to figure out why. Your argumets are weak beacuse you exaggerate to make a point - maybe because you're not sure of them. To call Sanders a journeyman is silly. The not so serious Sanders stopped many recent HWs, and was a dangerous quick striking lefty with some power. Wlad's chin, like LL, is average. If Wlad has a bad chin then so does Joe Louis. You can't have it both ways except in your own world.

Actually Brock, Brew, and Austin looked like the ones having heart attacks vs Wlad - or maybe shot with a rifle is a better description. :rofl You need to watch more fights ! Tell me what really bothers you about Wlad being the best, the BEST HW. C'mon it won't hurt. :yep

Yes, Wlad is clearly the best heavyweight right now. Hopefully he's also on his way to unifying and becoming the first champion since Lennox Lewis. He certainly has the ability to do so.

...But his chin is not better than Louis's. Louis's wasn't great, mind you (though part of it comes down to balanace), but Wlad's is worse than average.

[Decker]

I agree with everything but the last comment. I do think career accomplishments enter into the picture as much or more so than ficticious match ups. Certainly on a H2H basis Louis wouldn't rank too high and would likely loose to Wlad, but on a P4P basis and on his longivity on the top and his domination of his contempories, he's much higher than Wlad, at least currently. By saying that JL is a candidate as a top p4p HW (and I think he is), high end accomplishents is implied, else why would I consider him ATG status by any measure? :blood There's no disagreement here.

[box03]

Look I've read your stuff before. I know you're a hater of the current HW scene - and its not hard to figure out why. Your argumets are weak beacuse you exaggerate to make a point - maybe because you're not sure of them. To call Sanders a journeyman is silly. The not so serious Sanders stopped many recent HWs, and was a dangerous quick striking lefty with some power. Wlad's chin, like LL, is average. If Wlad has a bad chin then so does Joe Louis. You can't have it both ways except in your own world.

Actually Brock, Brew, and Austin looked like the ones having heart attacks vs Wlad - or maybe shot with a rifle is a better description. :rofl You need to watch more fights ! Tell me what really bothers you about Wlad being the best, the BEST HW. C'mon it won't hurt. :yep He is the best Heavywieght of this era but that aint saying much, when a club fighter like Oliver Mccall and Evander 25 % of me left" Holyfield can both fight and beat the top Heavywieghts on any given night theres obviously a problem in the Heavywieght division. I know your a Wlad fan but you got to realize hes not all that great , it just appears that way because everyone else in the division is so bad.

[McGrain]

Thoughts :think


Bro, most of your posts are OK, so i'm going to go easy on you.

But think about it.

[Fighting Weight]

I rather see you writing more xtremely funny threads like this one and play Alice in Wladerland

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Fighting Weight]

:lol: :patsch JOEs six inch punch wouldnt even reach the guy ! SIZE PLUS SKILL is a BIG ADVANTAGE ! Thats why there are weight classes ! In fact if there were IQ classes on this board this point wouldnt be debated so much !:yep

What was it that guy said the other day again? Ah yes, you're a "delusional, dick-riding bitch" :deal

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Louis WAS cutting water weight.

Fighters in Louis's era preferred getting down in weight rather than going up, even for heavyweight fights. If Louis's regimen was less intense (and it would cut down somewhat given a 12 round distance rather than 15) then he would fall more closely into the 210-220 lb. range. About the same size as Brock or Holyfield.

Re Schmeling: He was a more technically proficient fighter than Klitschko
"pound for pound" (mind you, Klitschko is great for a man his size). Schmeling had a very good eye for strategic weaknesses and an awkward style to allow him to exploit them.
C'mon CT... you know damn well that it would have made no sense for Louis to be cutting water weight when fighting at heavyweight. You do know what cutting water weight is, don't you? That means dehydrating yourself for the weigh in, and gaining it back before the fight starts. Why on earth would Joe Louis have been doing that? He didn't have to make weight. Joe Louis kept himself in great shape, obviously... but he sure as hell wasn't dehydrating himself for weigh ins. That would be taxing your body for no reason at all.

[2smart4u]

C'mon CT... you know damn well that it would have made no sense for Louis to be cutting water weight when fighting at heavyweight. You do know what cutting water weight is, don't you? That means dehydrating yourself for the weigh in, and gaining it back before the fight starts. Why on earth would Joe Louis have been doing that? He didn't have to make weight. Joe Louis kept himself in great shape, obviously... but he sure as hell wasn't dehydrating himself for weigh ins. That would be taxing your body for no reason at all.:patsch His spinning is sinking to an all time low ! And I cant wait for his long drawn out explanation for this one !:yep

[2smart4u]

What was it that guy said the other day again? Ah yes, you're a "delusional, dick-riding bitch" :deal:lol: Sticks and stones ? Fuck they break my bones and I still hate being called names !:yep Sup WEIGHT ?

[TheGreat]

What was it that guy said the other day again? Ah yes, you're a "delusional, dick-riding bitch" :deal
:good Ah yes he is and so are all these other nutthuggers, I thought the comments about Tua and Lewis were bad but this is a new level of nutthuggery. Wlad in his prime has lost to Journeymen Sanders, Purrity and brewster yet they say Louis wouldn't stand a chance......:rofl :rofl :rofl

[2smart4u]

:good Ah yes he is and so are all these other nutthuggers, I thought the comments about Tua and Lewis were bad but this is a new level of nutthuggery. Wlad in his prime has lost to Journeymen Sanders, Purrity and brewster yet they say Louis wouldn't stand a chance......:rofl :rofl :rofl:lol: You apparently dont know what a fighters prime is nor how to make a judgement based on style ! :hi: JOE wouldnt be competitive and you can take that to the bank CLOWN ! :yep

[Maxmomer]

Louis KO 6.

[TheGreat]

:lol: You apparently dont know what a fighters prime is nor how to make a judgement based on style ! :hi: JOE wouldnt be competitive and you can take that to the bank CLOWN ! :yep

:patsch Wlad wasn't green when he fought purrity though young he had fought 24 times and he was 27 yrs old and had 41 previous fights before old washed up Journeyman Sanders raped him, and finally he was 28 with 44 fights when he was sent to the hospital by Brewster, he was definely in his prime against Sanders and Brewster as he had already beat Byrd, anyway all 3 are jokes and Louis could have beat all 3 in the same night.

[PATSYS]

OH MY GOD!! This fight wouldn't even be close. Wlads jab would feel like an overhand right from the 'Cruiserweights' Louis was accustomed to fighting....only sharper and stronger. It would be around the 4th that Wlad would land his Straight Right and send Louis into the land of make-believe. :deal :deal :deal :deal



Thoughts :think

H2H maybe, P4P fukk no!

[2smart4u]

:patsch Wlad wasn't green when he fought purrity though young he had fought 24 times and he was 27 yrs old and had 41 previous fights before old washed up Journeyman Sanders raped him, and finally he was 28 with 44 fights when he was sent to the hospital by Brewster, he was definely in his prime against Sanders and Brewster as he had already beat Byrd, anyway all 3 are jokes and Louis could have beat all 3 in the same night.:lol: you really dont understand the fight game ! And the guy who got the crap beat out of him for 12 rounds by a 167 pounder isnt beating VLAD ! sorry to burst your BIAS BUBBLE ! now take off the ROSE COLORED GLASSES and get some sleep ! :hi:

[TheGreat]

:lol: you really dont understand the fight game ! And the guy who got the crap beat out of him for 12 rounds by a 167 pounder isnt beating VLAD ! sorry to burst your BIAS BUBBLE ! now take off the ROSE COLORED GLASSES and get some sleep ! :hi:

:rofl I could forget more about fighting than your cheerleading ass could learn in a lifetime, You talk about a past prime/shot Louis having problems with very good fighters like Conn but ignore the fact that Wlad who is in his prime has been raped by Journeymen and guys with no hope.

[2smart4u]

:rofl I could forget more about fighting than your cheerleading ass could learn in a lifetime, You talk about a past prime/shot Louis having problems with very good fighters like Conn but ignore the fact that Wlad who is in his prime has been raped by Journeymen and guys with no hope.:lol: Yes I know there are plenty of guys of middleweight size that could go 12 rounds with VLAD ! Ill tell you a secret bud ! Anyone who doesnt know how weak JOES competition is and the fact that he doesnt stack up well against VLAD DOESNT KNOW BOXING ! :hi: Cheers !

[TheGreat]

:lol: Yes I know there are plenty of guys of middleweight size that could go 12 rounds with VLAD ! Ill tell you a secret bud ! Anyone who doesnt know how weak JOES competition is and the fact that he doesnt stack up well against VLAD DOESNT KNOW BOXING ! :hi: Cheers !

Hell mediocre Chris Byrd a former MW beat Vitaly and went 12 rounds with Wlad the 1st time and anyone who thinks Wlad fought better comp knows nothing about boxing at all.

[2smart4u]

Hell mediocre Chris Byrd a former MW beat Vitaly and went 12 rounds with Wlad the 1st time and anyone who thinks Wlad fought better comp knows nothing about boxing at all.:lol: 13 rounds to take out a middleweight !:deal :yep The degree of delusion you display is EPIC !:hi: Cheers !

[TheGreat]

:lol: 13 rounds to take out a middleweight !:deal :yep The degree of delusion you display is EPIC !:hi: Cheers ! Again Klitchco hugger he was past his prime but whats Wlad excuse for getting his ass handed to him by tomato cans while in his prime?

[2smart4u]

Again Klitchco hugger he was past his prime but whats Wlad excuse for getting his ass handed to him by tomato cans while in his prime?:lol: JOE was in his PRIME ! And outside the loss to SANDERS VLADs loss to BREW was bizzar and the loss to PURITY was due to being sick overtrained and a kid ! :hi: 13 rounds to take out a middleweight !:yep Take your glasses off buddy and have a good night ! :bbb

[McGrain]

:lol: JOE was in his PRIME ! And outside the loss to SANDERS VLADs loss to BREW was bizzar and the loss to PURITY was due to being sick overtrained and a kid ! :hi: 13 rounds to take out a middleweight !:yep Take your glasses off buddy and have a good night ! :bbb


Tell you what though - bringing up Joe's in ability to put away a small and elusive fighter quickly when discussing his chances versus an imobile (relative) super-heavy is a really strange thing to do.

Louis' one round KO of Buddy Baer is much more relevant.

[SugarShane_24]

In truth, had Louis been active today, he should be facing Mormeck in 12 rounds.

[McGrain]

In truth, had Louis been active today, he should be facing Mormeck in 12 rounds.


It's possible that he would get started in that division.

But he's a far better puncher than Hollyfield, for example, who has become an ATG heavy.

[Decker]

Hell mediocre Chris Byrd a former MW beat Vitaly and went 12 rounds with Wlad the 1st time and anyone who thinks Wlad fought better comp knows nothing about boxing at all. You can call me and others huggers, but you're a pure hater of Wlad. Your arguments make absolutely no sense - and you have the gall to say you have all this boxing knowledge. Byrd faught at HW. He was a small HW, but he was over 200 lbs. Chris was a legit champ fighting in an era with true world comp. If Byrd is mediocre then Joe Louis was a hack fighting bums. Of course both are wrong. Vitali had a severe shoulder injury and decided not to risk making it a career ending one. Everybody knows that except haters like you. :verysad

Here's more of your boxing "wisdom"
Wlad in his prime has lost to Journeymen Sanders, Purrity and brewster yet they say Louis wouldn't stand a chance......:rofl :rofl :rofl Journeymen? :nut This is the haters #1 attack (like calling McCall or Rahman bums to put down LL), discrediting a fighters opponents to diminish their achievements. The "this era is weak" is a corollary. Puritty was a durable fighter, Sanders a dangerous lefty who never seemed to take boxing very serious, and Brew... why he was the next big thing until Wlad finished what SL started. The only thing :rofl :rofl :rofl is your boxing "knowledge".

Here's more laughs...
Again Klitchco hugger he was past his prime but whats Wlad excuse for getting his ass handed to him by tomato cans while in his prime? and
...he was definely in his prime against Sanders and Brewster as he had already beat Byrd, anyway all 3 are jokes and Louis could have beat all 3 in the same night. Louis was 27 - I'll say it slow t-w-e-n-t-y s-e-v-e-n. That's past his prime? :nut :lol: Damn, I know Joe didn't age well but if he wasn't in his prime at that age, when was he? The nite past it CW Max KO'd him? :rofl Which is it, did Louis have this great short prime like Tyson, or did he have this long reign due to fighting in a weak era. YOU are saying he was past his prime vs Conn, then he must have been fighting in the worst HW era ever ! Articles I've read state that Conn was no more than 169 vs Louis. Wlad would have demolished Conn on an off nite. Wlad's in his prime now, destroying real HWs from slick guys like Byrd to Brew, Brock, & Austin. Just because your panties are tied in knots over it doesn't make it any less true. Based on Louis performance vs SMW Conn he'd have struggled vs every one of them except maybe Austin - and that's a big maybe. :deal And not on the same nite, but months apart. :yep

Please give us more of your NotsoGreat boxing knowledge :nut :lol: :rofl

[McGrain]

Journeymen? :nut This is the haters #1 attack (like calling McCall or Rahman bums to put down LL), discrediting a fighters opponents to diminish their achievements. The "this era is weak" is a corollary.

Yeah, well said, I agree.


Louis was 27 - I'll say it slow t-w-e-n-t-y s-e-v-e-n. That's past his prime? :nut :lol: Damn, I know Joe didn't age well but if he wasn't in his prime at that age, when was he? The nite past it CW Max KO'd him? :rofl Which is it, did Louis have this great short prime like Tyson, or did he have this long reign due to fighting in a weak era. YOU are saying he was past his prime vs Conn, then he must have been fighting in the worst HW era ever ! Articles I've read state that Conn was no more than 169 vs Louis. Wlad would have demolished Conn on an off nite. Wlad's in his prime now, destroying real HWs from slick guys like Byrd to Brew, Brock, & Austin. Just because your panties are tied in knots over it doesn't make it any less true. Based on Louis performance vs SMW Conn he'd have struggled vs every one of them except maybe Austin - and that's a big maybe. :deal And not on the same nite, but months apart. :yep

But basing Louis' value on his Conn performance is a school boy error.

Conn recognised something absolutely crucial going into his match with Louis; Louis didn't fight outside a given circle, that is, he wasn't a man for waiting, he didn't need to get overset (think Dick Tiger) rather he was only comfortable boxing a man within a set range. This allowed Louis to totally - totally - avoid overextension (another fine reason to pick him against Klit). On the other hand it made him vulnerable to an elusive, iron-chinned fighter. Enter Billy Conn.

Conn was small, yes. He was also superfast, hard to hit clean, agile and was the first to recognise this "circle" within which Louis fought (or as Conn put it - "He can't box worth a lick! He has to hit you! And he couldn't hit me at two paces with a handfull of rice!") and to take advantage.

Louis spent his entire career trying to force men onto the front foot, trying to force them into his circle. Of course, he managed it with Conn eventually. I pick Louis to beat any man who would enter this circle voluntarily. I pick him to struggle against anyone who can succesfully remain outwith it. No-one ever managed to do that v peak Louis, however.

As to your points about Louis' peak - you are correct, it is disengenous to insists that the Conn fight took place outside of that peak. It happened firmly within it. As i've suggested, the reason Louis struggled was a matter of style not past-peak. But Conn was the right man, at the right time and is an ATG himself - still he lost. Let's not forget these points.

[Carlos Primera]

i feel he would. imo wlad is simply to evolved and is a stylistic nightmare for an old timer like jou louis.

[El Bombasto]

that's great, but perhaps wlad should focus on unifying the titles, so when his career is over he might be mentioned in the same breath as truly great fighters like louis

[doknochrisan]

:-(

[cross_trainer]

C'mon CT... you know damn well that it would have made no sense for Louis to be cutting water weight when fighting at heavyweight. You do know what cutting water weight is, don't you? That means dehydrating yourself for the weigh in, and gaining it back before the fight starts. Why on earth would Joe Louis have been doing that? He didn't have to make weight. Joe Louis kept himself in great shape, obviously... but he sure as hell wasn't dehydrating himself for weigh ins. That would be taxing your body for no reason at all.
Look at the manuals of the time if you don't believe me. They did try to cut weight to an absolute minimum. I am certain he was doing massive amounts of cardio and weight-cutting, and pretty certain he was cutting water weight--the idea being to come in as light as possible. Even at a later date, Ali was using diuretics to try to drain weight during his fight with Holmes.

Heck, you want more proof? Look at Louis's dehydrating himself for the Conn fight. It's pretty well recorded. These two articles took me about ten seconds of googling:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Look for "dehydrat" in the search bar.

[Decker]

Yeah, well said, I agree. Yuck, yuck. There's an old saying in boxing - don't hook with a hooker. I can be as sarcastic as anybody on ESB. :yep

But basing Louis' value on his Conn performance is a school boy error. I'm no school boy, sonny.

Conn recognised something absolutely crucial going into his match with Louis; Louis didn't fight outside a given circle, that is, he wasn't a man for waiting, he didn't need to get overset (think Dick Tiger) rather he was only comfortable boxing a man within a set range. This allowed Louis to totally - totally - avoid overextension (another fine reason to pick him against Klit). On the other hand it made him vulnerable to an elusive, iron-chinned fighter. Enter Billy Conn.

Conn was small, yes. He was also superfast, hard to hit clean, agile and was the first to recognise this "circle" within which Louis fought (or as Conn put it - "He can't box worth a lick! He has to hit you! And he couldn't hit me at two paces with a handfull of rice!") and to take advantage.

Louis spent his entire career trying to force men onto the front foot, trying to force them into his circle. Of course, he managed it with Conn eventually. I pick Louis to beat any man who would enter this circle voluntarily. I pick him to struggle against anyone who can succesfully remain outwith it. No-one ever managed to do that v peak Louis, however. Now at least you're presenting an argument, instead of the "this era is weak" bs. I understand you and many other don't like the current HW title holders - usually for national, racial, or nostalgic reasons.

As to your points about Louis' peak - you are correct, it is disengenous to insists that the Conn fight took place outside of that peak. It happened firmly within it. As i've suggested, the reason Louis struggled was a matter of style not past-peak. But Conn was the right man, at the right time and is an ATG himself - still he lost. Let's not forget these points. Then who was suggesting JL was past his prime? :huh It wasn't me. Yes, Conn was an ATG - as a SMW & LHW. Let's not forget that either ! :cool:

[cross_trainer]

:lol: 13 rounds to take out a middleweight !:deal :yep The degree of delusion you display is EPIC !:hi: Cheers !

A middleweight who weighed 174 pounds. I guess he was the only middleweight of that period who was allowed to come into the ring 14 pounds overweight.

[2smart4u]

A middleweight who weighed 174 pounds. I guess he was the only middleweight of that period who was allowed to come into the ring 14 pounds overweight.:lol: he weighed 167 pounds pounds on fight night CROSS and thats lighter then most middlewights fighting today on fight night ! :hi:

[cross_trainer]

:lol: he weighed 167 pounds pounds on fight night CROSS and thats lighter then most middlewights fighting today on fight night ! :hi:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Louis: 199 1/2 (water weight drained ;))
Conn: 174

[Amsterdam]

KO 4?

Hell, it'd be Wlad KO 1 Joe Louis. Jab - right, jab right and repeat until he's out within the 3 minute round, my guess is that it won't take more than a few. Louis is especially open when he dips his head down.

[cross_trainer]

KO 4?

Hell, it'd be Wlad KO 1 Joe Louis. Jab - right, jab right and repeat until he's out within the 3 minute round, my guess is that it won't take more than a few. Louis is especially open when he dips his head down.
Isn't there a Classic section thread for this?

And where's that Gene Tunney bashing you promised me? :D

[China_hand_Joe]

Louis: 199 1/2 (water weight drained ;))
Conn: 174

That fight was hilarious.

Typical for the time.


I'm not sure there is a single fighter around today as tactically inept as Conn.

[cross_trainer]

That fight was hilarious.

Typical for the time.

:lol:

You're a far better troll than 2smart4u. Your material is generally funny and sometimes has large nuggets of truth.

[Amsterdam]

Isn't there a Classic section thread for this?

And where's that Gene Tunney bashing you promised me? :D

:patsch

Sorry, been busy and have only been popping in here!

I'll get on it asap. I have to find the approproate Hearns video for comparison...

[Amsterdam]

:lol:

You're a far better troll than 2smart4u. Your material is generally funny and sometimes has large nuggets of truth.

He's not a troll CT, he's a very good poster who just has his own take. Everyone is is different and CHJ is an integral part of ESB for a variety of reasons.

[cross_trainer]

He's not a troll CT, he's a very good poster who just has his own take. Everyone is is different and CHJ is an integral part of ESB for a variety of reasons.

He's definitely a good poster.

It often seems like he's playing with us, though. A bit like Jazzo.

[China_hand_Joe]

:lol:

You're a far better troll than 2smart4u. Your material is generally funny and sometimes has large nuggets of truth.

I will always maintain everything I say is gospel truth.

(except a few spoof articles and a "Teenage Joe Calzaghe beats Mayweather at WW" thread)

[Amsterdam]

He's definitely a good poster.

It often seems like he's playing with us, though. A bit like Jazzo.

Well, that's obvious to most. He has a very good overall message though and that is how underrated amazing talents and skilled fighters go underlooked because of the sport's corruption and recently how older guys like Hopkins and Wright hog the P4P rankings and the 'resume' portion, where hungry young talents can't even secure good fights to get them where they deserve to be.

This is a good stance, I agree with it. He just uses Calzaghe as an example of a guy who was overlooked because Calzaghe is his favourite.

[2smart4u]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Louis: 199 1/2 (water weight drained ;))
Conn: 174:lol: Even if I got the weight wrong ( and according to my old mags I didnt ) he would still be a middle by todays standards !:hi: And i hope your not using REC as a source od gospel truth !

[2smart4u]

:lol:

You're a far better troll than 2smart4u. Your material is generally funny and sometimes has large nuggets of truth.:lol: resorting to insults like this makes you look pathetic !

[cross_trainer]

:lol: resorting to insults like this makes you look pathetic !

It's not an insult, it's the truth. China_Hand_Joe often posts to get a reaction--to "troll" for want of a better word. The difference is that his more outrageous statements aren't supposed to be taken seriously.

[ripcity]

Wlad Klitschko could defently beat Joe Louis head to head, but he dose not have better boxing skills and is not higher p4p than Louis.

[joe the great]

Wlad is a monster but if Sanders could KO him easy than I would have to go with Louis by late KO. Louis was smaller but he had greater skills. A great little man can overcome a good bigger man. Louisw was big enough.

[compukiller]

OH MY GOD!! This fight wouldn't even be close. Wlads jab would feel like an overhand right from the 'Cruiserweights' Louis was accustomed to fighting....only sharper and stronger. It would be around the 4th that Wlad would land his Straight Right and send Louis into the land of make-believe. :deal :deal :deal :deal



Thoughts :think


GET THE FUCK OUTTA HERE:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl


Joe Louis would KILL WALD H2H. I guarantee you WALD has NEVER faced anyone with power like Louis. NEVER!!!!!!:deal

And P4P???:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

Joe Louis Would have NEVER lost to anyone like Sanders, Brewster, or for god sakes Ross Fucking Purrity:-(

And as far as resume, there is no comparison. The argument could be made that Louis was the greatest Heavy of all time. WALD is not even in the top 75:deal

[Amsterdam]

Wlad is a monster but if Sanders could KO him easy than I would have to go with Louis by late KO. Louis was smaller but he had greater skills. A great little man can overcome a good bigger man. Louisw was big enough.

Louis did not have superior skills to Wlad, this is absolutely false.

If anything, the fundamentals are nearly the same, with Wlad of course being greater in every physical respect.

[BewareofDawg]

GET THE FUCK OUTTA HERE:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl


Joe Louis would KILL WALD H2H. I guarantee you WALD has NEVER faced anyone with power like Louis. NEVER!!!!!!:deal

And P4P???:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

Joe Louis Would have NEVER lost to anyone like Sanders, Brewster, or for god sakes Ross Fucking Purrity:-(

And as far as resume, there is no comparison. The argument could be made that Louis was the greatest Heavy of all time. WALD is not even in the top 75:deal
I meant Prime 4 Prime by putting P4P.....not pound for pound, Sorry.

So I take it you disagree????? :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

[box03]

Wlad has never fought a quality oppenent aside from light punching Bryd, yeah Im sure Wlad would have a field day with an ATG like Louis.

[Amsterdam]

He would be a huge puncher for any era. Watch his fights with bigger men in Max Baer and Carnera. He was also a very precise puncher. Head to head this is a close call, as neither have granite chins by any measure, but Wlad may beat him head to head, it's possible, Wlad is a hard style matchup for a lot of fighters, just not the big bangers like Tyson.

At least you agree that Wlad is an awful style for Louis even if you really believe Louis competes today.

Right hand over the guard, it'll land in frequent.

[BewareofDawg]

Wlad has never fought a quality oppenent aside from light punching Bryd, yeah Im sure Wlad would have a field day with an ATG like Louis.
That little, light Punching Heavyweight Chris Byrd is bigger than Louis was. And how devastating of a puncher would Brewster have been if he was fighting 175lb Billy Conn??????

[Fighting Weight]

That little, light Punching Heavyweight Chris Byrd is bigger than Louis was. And how devastating of a puncher would Brewster have been if he was fighting 175lb Billy Conn??????

About as devastating as he was fighting 240lb WALDO the first time, would be my guess.

Funny how WALDO is supposed to be so fucking skilful, yet he has absolutely no idea how to not get hit by left hooks :lol:

[BewareofDawg]

About as devastating as he was fighting 240lb WALDO the first time, would be my guess.

Funny how WALDO is supposed to be so fucking skilful, yet he has absolutely no idea how to not get hit by left hooks :lol:
He dodges a lot of them :yep

[2smart4u]

It's not an insult, it's the truth. China_Hand_Joe often posts to get a reaction--to "troll" for want of a better word. The difference is that his more outrageous statements aren't supposed to be taken seriously.:lol: So in your mind claiming VLAD is simply to big and skilled for QUARRY is outrageous ? I quess thats the same as 2 excuses equaling a million ! Its your over annilisization of the obvious thats outrageous ! Oh and a back and forth argument is now considewred trolling ? This seems to me to look more and more like one of the KLIT haters responces that you claim you arent ! I quess thats your passive aggressiveness !:yep :hi: love these faces !:hey PS It also seems to me ITS YOU TROLLING MY POSTS !

[Fighting Weight]

He dodges a lot of them :yep

It's the ones that connect that get him all the stick though, cos he generally crashes to the canvas when they get through :happy

[2smart4u]

That little, light Punching Heavyweight Chris Byrd is bigger than Louis was. And how devastating of a puncher would Brewster have been if he was fighting 175lb Billy Conn??????:yep The obvious gets convienently ignored here and is replaced with over annalisis and twisted logic to suit the agendas ! :good Once the status quo is satisfyed your considered a guru !:lol:

[box03]

That little, light Punching Heavyweight Chris Byrd is bigger than Louis was. And how devastating of a puncher would Brewster have been if he was fighting 175lb Billy Conn?????? Yeah and what happend to Conn when they fought the second time. And you cant compare wieght when Marciano who was 185 5'10 was able to hit harder than most if all Heavywieghts in the top 10 right now, and even Tyson made the comment when he guest commentated on HBO said Julian Jackson who was 154 at the time hit harder than most Hevywieghts he seen. Theres such thing as being Heavyhanded and learning the proper technique into putting your wieght into a punch, if you work with a good boxing trainer they will teach you the art of throwing a good solid punch.

[Fighting Weight]

:yep The obvious gets convienently ignored here and is replaced with over annalisis and twisted logic to suit the agendas ! :good Once the status quo is satisfyed your considered a guru !:lol:

The obvious gets ignored on both sides.....like how the "delusional, dick riding bitches" on the WALDO bandwagon ignore the punches against Brewster and claim he was suffering from some mystery medical condition :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

[joe the great]

Louis did not have superior skills to Wlad, this is absolutely false.

If anything, the fundamentals are nearly the same, with Wlad of course being greater in every physical respect.
Okay Wlad is stronger. Louis is much quicker and has better conditioning. I do think fundamentally Louis is a better fighter. That is not saying Wlad wan't good.

[Irish Steel]

Joe would last much more than 4 rounds! I can see him being ko'd in the 7th. Wlad is far too big for him, and possibly the biggest puncher he has ever faced.

[Amsterdam]

Okay Wlad is stronger. Louis is much quicker and has better conditioning. I do think fundamentally Louis is a better fighter. That is not saying Wlad wan't good.

I don't care about Wlad, I'm not even a fan, I'm just telling you straight facts mate.

Louis is definitley not quicker, watch some comparison tapes in detail, you'll find that Wlad gets off quicker, moves quicker and has much more handspeed.

Louis also made a ton more mitakes. Hell, he's a fighter from the 1930's and 40's, that's expected...

[2smart4u]

The obvious gets ignored on both sides.....like how the "delusional, dick riding bitches" on the WALDO bandwagon ignore the punches against Brewster and claim he was suffering from some mystery medical condition :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl:lol: Its also convienently ignored that BREW didnt land shit until VLAD was ready to pass out ! :hi: Sup WEIGHT !:yep

[2smart4u]

I don't care about Wlad, I'm not even a fan, I'm just telling you straight facts mate.

Louis is definitley not quicker, watch some comparison tapes in detail, you'll find that Wlad gets off quicker, moves quicker and has much more handspeed.

Louis also made a ton more mitakes. Hell, he's a fighter from the 1930's and 40's, that's expected...:good

[Decker]

About as devastating as he was fighting 240lb WALDO the first time, would be my guess.

Funny how WALDO is supposed to be so fucking skilful, yet he has absolutely no idea how to not get hit by left hooks :lol: FW we get it, you're a Wlad hater. In these threads lately nobody has explained how a tub of lard like Tony Galento could shake up and floor a prime Joe Louis :huh :yep The ATG Louis in his PRIME?! Galento wouldn't even be able to get close to Wlad. :lol:
Tell me, since you're so objective :-(

I'm in my 50s and can move like Ali in his prime compared to Galento and some of the other big stiffs Louis faught. Now Conn could box, but he was a friggin SMW in their first fight. By his early 30s JL was slipping. Forget Wlad, many of todays HWs - h2h - could beat the early to mid 30s year old JL. And it wouldn't be considered a big win. If it wasn't for the Louis aura, most fans would say - why did <insert name> say Chagaev, beat up a good 35 year old CW? :rofl Louis was tops for his era - a weak, limited era. Nothing more or less. Lennox L would destroy Joe L.

box03 or compukiller, you got any rational, unbiased answers? No, ok that's what I thought. :tong

[2smart4u]

FW we get it, you're a Wlad hater. In these threads lately nobody has explained how a tub of lard like Tony Galento could shake up and floor a prime Joe Louis :huh :yep The ATG Louis in his PRIME?! Galento wouldn't even be able to get close to Wlad. :lol:
Tell me, since you're so objective :-(

I'm in my 50s and can move like Ali in his prime compared to Galento and some of the other big stiffs Louis faught. Now Conn could box, but he was a friggin SMW in their first fight. By his early 30s JL was slipping. Forget Wlad, many of todays HWs - h2h - could beat the early to mid 30s year old JL. And it wouldn't be considered a big win. If it wasn't for the Louis aura, most fans would say - why did <insert name> say Chagaev, beat up a good 35 year old CW? :rofl Louis was tops for his era - a weak, limited era. Nothing more or less. Lennox L would destroy Joe L.

box03 or compukiller, you got any rational, unbiased answers? No, ok that's what I thought. :tong:yep :good

[joe the great]

I don't care about Wlad, I'm not even a fan, I'm just telling you straight facts mate.

Louis is definitley not quicker, watch some comparison tapes in detail, you'll find that Wlad gets off quicker, moves quicker and has much more handspeed.

Louis also made a ton more mitakes. Hell, he's a fighter from the 1930's and 40's, that's expected...
You're a Wlad nutthugger mate. :lol: Wlad moves quicker? Watch Louis against the Baer boys.

[2smart4u]

You're a Wlad nutthugger mate. :lol: Wlad moves quicker? Watch Louis against the Baer boys.:lol: why not try and watch JOE against someone with a little boxing skill ! :bbb

[box03]

FW we get it, you're a Wlad hater. In these threads lately nobody has explained how a tub of lard like Tony Galento could shake up and floor a prime Joe Louis :huh :yep The ATG Louis in his PRIME?! Galento wouldn't even be able to get close to Wlad. :lol:
Tell me, since you're so objective :-(

I'm in my 50s and can move like Ali in his prime compared to Galento and some of the other big stiffs Louis faught. Now Conn could box, but he was a friggin SMW in their first fight. By his early 30s JL was slipping. Forget Wlad, many of todays HWs - h2h - could beat the early to mid 30s year old JL. And it wouldn't be considered a big win. If it wasn't for the Louis aura, most fans would say - why did <insert name> say Chagaev, beat up a good 35 year old CW? :rofl Louis was tops for his era - a weak, limited era. Nothing more or less. Lennox L would destroy Joe L.

box03 or compukiller, you got any rational, unbiased answers? No, ok that's what I thought. :tong While you make decent points for Wlad, you still leave some unanswered. So your telling me Wlads losses are against top oposition, all 3 of his losses came against low level competition especially Purrity who lost to every top level fighter except Wlad. While Wlad might be the best of this era he will never accomplish or even be thought of in the same breath as the great Joe Louis, joes superior boxing ability is far greater than Wlads you would have to be blind not to see that.

[Amsterdam]

You're a Wlad nutthugger mate. :lol: Wlad moves quicker? Watch Louis against the Baer boys.

I am not a Wlad nuthugger. If you were impressed by what Louis did on film in comparison to the modern counterparts, then I'll just stop here before anything gets escalated.

[cross_trainer]

:lol: So in your mind claiming VLAD is simply to big and skilled for QUARRY is outrageous ?
No, claiming that size is the only factor is outrageous. That's the problem. D'Amato, Rooney, and Steward could all get together and explain to you why Holyfield would beat Wlad, and you'd answer "WLAD IZ BIGGER! HE WINZ!!:nut:p:oops::!:"

It wouldn't be so bad if you just said it once and let reasonable people take it from there, but you don't. You're convinced that your obsession with size is the only important thing in boxing, so you repeat it page after tired page.

Look, I'm sorry that you're not capable of analyzing fighters from a technical standpoint. I really wish you could--it would make these conversations much more interesting. But since you can't, try to stand aside and let people who DO understand take over. That includes everybody from Amsterdam to Widdow_Maker and Decker, all of whom disagree with me.


I quess thats the same as 2 excuses equaling a million ! Its your over annilisization of the obvious thats outrageous ! Oh and a back and forth argument is now considewred trolling ? This seems to me to look more and more like one of the KLIT haters responces that you claim you arent !
:rofl :rofl :rofl

I'm a Klitschko hater now? Just the other day, Suge_White was trying to convince me I'm turning into a Klitschko nuthugger. You two need to come to some consensus--I'm getting confused.


I quess thats your passive aggressiveness !:yep :hi: love these faces !:hey PS It also seems to me ITS YOU TROLLING MY POSTS !
Perhaps you're not trolling. A more accurate description is "Spamming". You're the Farmboxer of the General forum.

[Irish Steel]

I would say louis is only in the top ten all time because of accomplishments. H2h, i dont think he can even make top 10.

[Amsterdam]

I would say louis is only in the top ten all time because of accomplishments. H2h, i dont think he can even make top 10.

H2H he's not even ranked. He makes the high ranking on my lists because I compare on an era to era basis what these fighters were to their era.

Now granted, if Louis were trained in the modern times, he'd obviously be up there with anyone, but this was not the case. Some boxing fans believe that the fighter that was Joe Louis in the 1930's is truly a top H2H HW, this is absolutely grade A fucking absurd.

[cross_trainer]

H2H he's not even ranked. He makes the high ranking on my lists because I compare on an era to era basis what these fighters were to their era.

Now granted, if Louis were trained in the modern times, he'd obviously be up there with anyone, but this was not the case. Some boxing fans believe that the fighter that was Joe Louis in the 1930's is truly a top H2H HW, this is absolutely grade A fucking absurd.

I disagree, as you know. It's a shame we were never able to finish that discussion. Since then, I've been looking at some more footwork trends from Patterson, Povetkin, and a few others and I'm seeing more commonalities with Louis.

[Amsterdam]

I disagree, as you know. It's a shame we were never able to finish that discussion. Since then, I've been looking at some more footwork trends from Patterson, Povetkin, and a few others and I'm seeing more commonalities with Louis.

Commonalities do not mean that they are equal. Tyson's style comes from 'Dempsey theory', Dempsey is obviously not on Tyson's level in any respect however.

[cross_trainer]

Commonalities do not mean that they are equal. Tyson's style comes from 'Dempsey theory', Dempsey is obviously not on Tyson's level in any respect however.

I agree, but commonalities that are almost identical, and have proved effective in both fighters' cases, do.

[Amsterdam]

I agree, but commonalities that are almost identical, and have proved effective in both fighters' cases, do.

For some reason, the poster 'Janitor' turns me off to debating the subject technically, I need to learn to get over this before the debate continue's in serious fashion, but he doesn't piss me off, he's a classy guy, it's just his inherrant bias towards the older era's is not backed up like yours is and his posts are as extreme as mine with nothing behind them and it just turns me off and makes me not even want to retort.

I am sure you agree that Wlad beats Joe Louis even from your stance, judging by styles.

I am also sure you agree that Wlad KO 1 Galento.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Look at the manuals of the time if you don't believe me. They did try to cut weight to an absolute minimum. I am certain he was doing massive amounts of cardio and weight-cutting, and pretty certain he was cutting water weight--the idea being to come in as light as possible. Even at a later date, Ali was using diuretics to try to drain weight during his fight with Holmes.

Heck, you want more proof? Look at Louis's dehydrating himself for the Conn fight. It's pretty well recorded. These two articles took me about ten seconds of googling:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Look for "dehydrat" in the search bar.
Cross... I am not saying that you don't know what you are talking about, because you do. However, on this issue, I honestly don't believe that Louis was dehyrating himself when he didn't need to. It is unhealthy, and if you go into the ring dehyrated then you would perform horribly. Which is why even today when fighters dehyrate themselves, they blow back up 15 and sometimes 20 pounds after the weigh ins by rehyrating. This is the same reason that weigh ins were pushed back to the day before the fights, because you are at serious risk for a brain injury if you are not given that amount of time to get the fluids back in your body.

So, given the obvious reasons, I seriously don't see any reason whatsoever that Joe Louis would have been dehyrating himself. I have been there and done that, and it literally makes you feel like you are dying. Considering that Joe Louis didn't have to make any weight, then he wouldn't be dehyrating and hurting his body for nothing. However, as you said, Joe did always come in tip top shape, and kept his weight as low as possible outside of dehyrating himself.

[cross_trainer]

Cross... I am not saying that you don't know what you are talking about, because you do. However, on this issue, I honestly don't believe that Louis was dehyrating himself when he didn't need to. It is unhealthy, and if you go into the ring dehyrated then you would perform horribly. Which is why even today when fighters dehyrate themselves, they blow back up 15 and sometimes 20 pounds after the weigh ins by rehyrating. This is the same reason that weigh ins were pushed back to the day before the fights, because you are at serious risk for a brain injury if you are not given that amount of time to get the fluids back in your body.

So, given the obvious reasons, I seriously don't see any reason whatsoever that Joe Louis would have been dehyrating himself. I have been there and done that, and it literally makes you feel like you are dying. Considering that Joe Louis didn't have to make any weight, then he wouldn't be dehyrating and hurting his body for nothing. However, as you said, Joe did always come in tip top shape, and kept his weight as low as possible outside of dehyrating himself.
Thank you for your tactful vote of confidence. Much appreciated. :D

Dehydrating yourself as a part of "training" began in the early 1800's when they believed dehydration would eliminate fat. The prejudice against water in training continued into the early 20th century in track and field, and seems to have stuck with boxing longer than that.

Yeah, it's strange, but they believed that dehydration did help you shed (non-water) weight and make you more efficient.

[cross_trainer]

For some reason, the poster 'Janitor' turns me off to debating the subject technically, I need to learn to get over this before the debate continue's in serious fashion, but he doesn't piss me off, he's a classy guy, it's just his inherrant bias towards the older era's is not backed up like yours is and his posts are as extreme as mine with nothing behind them and it just turns me off and makes me not even want to retort.

I am sure you agree that Wlad beats Joe Louis even from your stance, judging by styles.

I am also sure you agree that Wlad KO 1 Galento.

Nah, you should know me better than that by now. I'm the guy who picked Fitzsimmons over Calzaghe. :lol:

Louis does beat Klitschko in my opinion. Galento would lose to Klitschko.

[Amsterdam]

Nah, you should know me better than that by now. I'm the guy who picked Fitzsimmons over Calzaghe. :lol:

Louis does beat Klitschko in my opinion. Galento would lose to Klitschko.

Modern rules? If so, then you must doubt JC.

[cross_trainer]

Modern rules? If so, then you must doubt JC.

Modern rules indeed. And no, I don't doubt JC. Very good fighter, although I'm not a fan as you and China_Hand_Joe are. It's just that Fitz was an amazing fighter. His style was weird, but at least in his case you can't claim he was incompetent due to evolution--his style was just as weird in his own day as it would be now.

I'm also curious to see if Calzaghe will beat Kessler first.

[McGrain]

Yuck, yuck. There's an old saying in boxing - don't hook with a hooker. I can be as sarcastic as anybody on ESB. :yep


I wasn't being sarcastic. I agreed with your point.

[McGrain]

I'm not sure there is a single fighter around today as tactically inept as Conn.


Why do you say that?

I'd rate him as perhaps the most tactically astute in my experience...

I'll assume you've only seen the Louis fight, we can stick to that one if you like.

Why do you say that?

[China_hand_Joe]

Why do you say that?

I'd rate him as perhaps the most tactically astute in my experience...

I'll assume you've only seen the Louis fight, we can stick to that one if you like.

Why do you say that?He should have gone Cory Spinks rather than Gatti on Louis with the final rounds approaching.

I couldn't believe what my eyes were seeing.

[Lance_Uppercut]

OH MY GOD!! This fight wouldn't even be close. Wlads jab would feel like an overhand right from the 'Cruiserweights' Louis was accustomed to fighting....only sharper and stronger. It would be around the 4th that Wlad would land his Straight Right and send Louis into the land of make-believe. :deal :deal :deal :deal



Thoughts :think

Right or wrong, he'll probably never be as great or highly regarded as Joe Louis. He just doesn't have the comp today to make it happen.

[Amsterdam]

Right or wrong, he'll probably never be as great or highly regarded as Joe Louis. He just doesn't have the comp today to make it happen.

I disagree, if he were to beat everyone he faces for the next 5 years and to do so in dominative fashion, he'd be up there. I don't think this will be the case however.

Competition comes into realisation as time goes on. Louis' wins over several guys meant absolutely nothing at the time, but are regarded now.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Thank you for your tactful vote of confidence. Much appreciated. :D

Dehydrating yourself as a part of "training" began in the early 1800's when they believed dehydration would eliminate fat. The prejudice against water in training continued into the early 20th century in track and field, and seems to have stuck with boxing longer than that.

Yeah, it's strange, but they believed that dehydration did help you shed (non-water) weight and make you more efficient.
There is a big difference between controlling your water intake, and completely dehyrating yourself. In order to completely dehydrate yourself, we are talking about not drinking any water whatsoever for at least a 24 hour period before the weigh ins (let alone eating anything)... we are also talking about wearing solar suits in a sauna for hours while shedding pound after pound until you can't even sweat anymore. This is what people do when they dehyrate themselves before weigh ins. Now, half of the time you literally can't even hardly make the walk to the scale after you do this, let alone fight a 15 rounder at a top level. Yet, you can lose 15 or so pounds faster than you could imagine. Which is exactly why you see guys weighing in for a fight at 135, and coming in the next night at 150.

Just about every high level athlete who competes in one on one contact sports limits his water intake a bit, so he isn't feeling bloated while training, or fighting. However, back in Joe Louis' day the effects of dehydrating yourself would be no different than they are today, and there is absolutely no way that he put on the great performances that he did, while he was completely dehyrated. Not even possible.

And I am sure that we can agree that he didn't just dehyrate for the weigh ins, and gain it back right before the fight, as there would have been absolutely no point in that either.

I will never forget the feeling that it gave me when I dehyrated myself. Your teeth will literally feel like they are buzzing in your mouth. Your forearms, and every other muscle are cramped, and feel like like they are being pulled together with pins and needles. Climbing a flight of stairs seems almost impossible. Honestly, there would be no way in hell that anyone could be expected to perform at all under those conditions, let alone as the best in the world at the time.

It simply cannot happen.

[cross_trainer]

There is a big difference between controlling your water intake, and completely dehyrating yourself. In order to completely dehydrate yourself, we are talking about not drinking any water whatsoever for at least a 24 hour period before the weigh ins (let alone eating anything)... we are also talking about wearing solar suits in a sauna for hours while shedding pound after pound until you can't even sweat anymore. This is what people do when they dehyrate themselves before weigh ins. Now, half of the time you literally can't even hardly make the walk to the scale after you do this, let alone fight a 15 rounder at a top level. Yet, you can lose 15 or so pounds faster than you could imagine. Which is exactly why you see guys weighing in for a fight at 135, and coming in the next night at 150.

Just about every high level athlete who competes in one on one contact sports limits his water intake a bit, so he isn't feeling bloated while training, or fighting. However, back in Joe Louis' day the effects of dehydrating yourself would be no different than they are today, and there is absolutely no way that he put on the great performances that he did, while he was completely dehyrated. Not even possible.

And I am sure that we can agree that he didn't just dehyrate for the weigh ins, and gain it back right before the fight, as there would have been absolutely no point in that either.

I will never forget the feeling that it gave me when I dehyrated myself. Your teeth will literally feel like they are buzzing in your mouth. Your forearms, and every other muscle are cramped, and feel like like they are being pulled together with pins and needles. Climbing a flight of stairs seems almost impossible. Honestly, there would be no way in hell that anyone could be expected to perform at all under those conditions, let alone as the best in the world at the time.

It simply cannot happen.
Perhaps I mis-phrased. When I said controlling water intake, I meant as little water as possible without killing the guy, for periods of weeks on end. As odd as it seems, this is exactly what was done early on, and the trend survived (though not as extreme) during Louis's time. In Cribb's day (early 19th century) it was at its worst--heavy "sweater" coats, lots of runs, and almost zero water intake (all foods dried out beforehand, too).

By Louis's era, things had calmed down slightly, but the underlying idea of very little water was still around. This isn't normal control I'm talking about--it's halfway between the dehydration you experienced and what athletes would consider "normal" water intake today.

The Conn fight was also unusual for another reason--Louis did not want to be looked upon as a "bully" beating up on the smaller Conn, so he tried to drain himself for the weigh-in in the same way that modern fighters do.

[cross_trainer]

He should have gone Cory Spinks rather than Gatti on Louis with the final rounds approaching.

I couldn't believe what my eyes were seeing.

Bad strategically. Yes, this was a criticism even at the time--which indicates that they knew the same things you do about staying away and boxing when you have a lead on the scorecards.

Was there anything tactically wrong with his performance? Were there any underlying technical errors?

[China_hand_Joe]

Bad strategically. Yes, this was a criticism even at the time--which indicates that they knew the same things you do about staying away and boxing when you have a lead on the scorecards.

Was there anything tactically wrong with his performance? Were there any underlying technical errors?

It wasn't a critism of the entire era, just Conn.

However if I must go down that route>

Fighters back then were more macho (although not tougher), which led to bad strategic decisions (and alcohol abuse). Another reason why todays era of metro-sexual fighters is vastly superior (except rubbish losing fighters, offen refered to as being old school, like Gatti).

[cross_trainer]

It wasn't a critism of the entire era, just Conn.

However if I must go down that route>

Fighters back then were more macho (although not tougher), which led to bad strategic decisions (and alcohol abuse). Another reason why todays era of metro-sexual fighters is vastly superior (except rubbish losing fighters, offen refered to as being old school, like Gatti).
:lol:

That's actually a good point. Then again, remember that as early as Fitzsimmons they were predicting that everybody would just go for the points victory and leave it at that. They were wrong then, and wrong now--even with their massive paydays, many fighters still have enough machismo to pile on the pressure when they could cruise instead.

[Orang-Utan Jim]

Joe Louis would lose against several of 1980-2010 HW´s. Because he was a 185 lbs. boxer with a sometime sloppy defense and not the best chin. Tyson, Lewis, Holmes or Wlad Klitschko would have a good chance to beat him. And people who deny that categorical simply don´t know the sport and are bigots of old times....

[compukiller]

I meant Prime 4 Prime by putting P4P.....not pound for pound, Sorry.

So I take it you disagree????? :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

Only mildly:lol:

[Irish Steel]

Commonalities do not mean that they are equal. Tyson's style comes from 'Dempsey theory', Dempsey is obviously not on Tyson's level in any respect however.

You mean tyson isnt on Dempsey's level?

[McGrain]

He should have gone Cory Spinks rather than Gatti on Louis with the final rounds approaching.

I couldn't believe what my eyes were seeing.

You mean at the very end of the fight? Firstly, you ignore Conn's tactical genius in every round before the 13th - but as to the 13th round itself

1) - Conn knew he was ahead on points, but on the other hand he wouldn't be the first challanger to have been in this position v a popular champ and dropped an SD on the cards. If it had gone to points and Conn had lost, we'd all be calling him naive.

2) - Conn wasn't that type of man. I would argue that going Cory Spinks is not within him (a thing i am glad of) and furthermore that to try to counteract your nature for tactical advantage is as likely to end in disaster as success.

3) - Not possible. You MUST punch Louis to keep him from you, his footwork is sometimes attacked by folk on this board; it is a thing of economic beauty and his positioning is often exquisite.

4) Conn had Louis hurt so he stepped up the gears. That is on page one of "How to be a Boxer". It was a tactical mistake though, as we now know, but attacking this one tactical error from an arm chair when the decision was taken in the most heated of battles seems a little snotish if you will forgive me for saying so - especially if you use this one mistake to deride him as "tactically inept". What do you have to say about Conn's tactics in every other round?

5) This wasn't a decision taken in isolation, it wasn't a computer game Conn was playing. You underestimate, as most do, the huge impact of Louis' coninutal stalking and physical baiting. Even if Louis was an invlunerable robot, if Conn (or anyone else for that matter) was fighting an infinite number of rounds with him the fight would end just as this one did - with the opponent launching a final and desperate attack. Louis was a master at making this happen.

[McGrain]

Joe Louis would lose against several of 1980-2010 HW´s. Because he was a 185 lbs. boxer with a sometime sloppy defense and not the best chin. Tyson, Lewis, Holmes or Wlad Klitschko would have a good chance to beat him. And people who deny that categorical simply don´t know the sport and are bigots of old times....

I think Louis weighed in under 190 three times in his career, all in his first year as a pro, so you're wrong for a start. He got up over 200 in the second half of his career and weighed more than Joe Frazier (for example) for most of his big fights.

You don't need the best of defences when you are one of the greatest punchers of all time, but that point at least has some validity.

I agree that Tyson etc., have a good chance to beat him. When you are talking about the top 1% of fighters in any weight division this is almost always the case - the exceptions tend to be when there is a horrible style clash.

[Decker]

McGrain, #159 is a good analysis. Even so, I wonder if JL didn't outweigh Conn by 30# the fight may have had a different outcome. Heck if Conn was a solid 190+, instead of just shaking up Joe earlier, he may have stopped him. We'll never know.

[McGrain]

McGrain, #159 is a good analysis. Even so, I wonder if JL didn't outweigh Conn by 30# the fight may have had a different outcome. Heck if Conn was a solid 190+, instead of just shaking up Joe earlier, he may have stopped him. We'll never know.


Very fair point.

Complicated though isn't it? At that sort of weight it would be a very very special fighter that would have been able to keep one step ahead of Louis. Add 30lbs to Conn and I thin it's more likely Joe stops him earlier than the other way around, if you see what I mean.

Arguably, Walcott managed something close to what you're describing in his first meeting with Louis and although he failed to stop Joe he was perhaps robbed of the decision.

[Decker]

McGrain, yes. Of course that's the logical response. If you take it to mean adding say even 20# to the actual real Conn, then JL may have caught up to him earlier. But if you take it to mean a naturally bigger version of Conn, then he probably would have won that nite.

Agree w/the Walcott analogy. JL was dropped 2X in JL-JW I. If scoring was on the 10pt system instead of rounds it would have been a robbery. Joe was 33 and slipping. JL received some iffy decisions in his career. While looking at JL's record on boxrec, I noticed that he didn't fight a single 200+ pounder after Simon & Buddy Bear (2 klutzes) in early '42 - near JL's prime. Some were just over LHW. I know, that was considered HW back then. After the 2 Walcott fights (and JL's "retirement"), the only name opponents he faced - none near 200 lbs - were Charles (lost), Savold (beat a ring worn fighter w/over 100 bouts?), & Marciano (KO loss). :-( I know the reasons, but Joe should have stayed away.

[McGrain]

I know the reasons, but Joe should have stayed away.

Yup. The second Walcott fight was probably the last great performance.

I guess he would have if he could have is the only thing you can say.

[Dekkers]

Anyone who thinks Joe Louis doesn't punch harder than Chris Byrd... well what can I say? That statement speaks for itself to all unbiased fans of pugilism. Joe's a powerful and techncal puncher, his qualities as a puncher being so good as to compare favourably with many modern havyweights.

Joe had all the kinetic chains going from the legs, through the abdomen, and shoulders, so vital in gerating good power along with compact and economic movent (short and crisp extension with his arms/hands) a blue print for any fighter wanting to be a strong technical puncher.

[China_hand_Joe]

You mean at the very end of the fight? Firstly, you ignore Conn's tactical genius in every round before the 13th - but as to the 13th round itself

1) - Conn knew he was ahead on points, but on the other hand he wouldn't be the first challanger to have been in this position v a popular champ and dropped an SD on the cards. If it had gone to points and Conn had lost, we'd all be calling him naive.

2) - Conn wasn't that type of man. I would argue that going Cory Spinks is not within him (a thing i am glad of) and furthermore that to try to counteract your nature for tactical advantage is as likely to end in disaster as success.

3) - Not possible. You MUST punch Louis to keep him from you, his footwork is sometimes attacked by folk on this board; it is a thing of economic beauty and his positioning is often exquisite.

4) Conn had Louis hurt so he stepped up the gears. That is on page one of "How to be a Boxer". It was a tactical mistake though, as we now know, but attacking this one tactical error from an arm chair when the decision was taken in the most heated of battles seems a little snotish if you will forgive me for saying so - especially if you use this one mistake to deride him as "tactically inept". What do you have to say about Conn's tactics in every other round?

5) This wasn't a decision taken in isolation, it wasn't a computer game Conn was playing. You underestimate, as most do, the huge impact of Louis' coninutal stalking and physical baiting. Even if Louis was an invlunerable robot, if Conn (or anyone else for that matter) was fighting an infinite number of rounds with him the fight would end just as this one did - with the opponent launching a final and desperate attack. Louis was a master at making this happen.

Conn made a huge blunder, it is as simple as that.

[McGrain]

Conn made a huge blunder, it is as simple as that.


I agree.

But it's lot more complex than your original claim.

[Sonny Carson]

A 'big punch' from Louis would feel about the same as Chris Byrd's best punch... I think Wlad would jab all night and stop The Brown Bomber, but not in round 4. I see it ending in round 7 or 8...
You've just made a case for dumbest poster. Louis knocked out some guy's who were Wlad's size or bigger than Wlad. Just because him and Byrd are the same weight doesn't mean they have the same punch stupid. Louis hit 100 times harder than Byrd.

[Sakura]

"You've just made a case for dumbest poster. Louis knocked out some guy's who were Wlad's size or bigger than Wlad. Just because him and Byrd are the same weight doesn't mean they have the same punch stupid. Louis hit 100 times harder than Byrd."

Agree, but wlad is also 100 times better than those big fighters, who Louis won...

[McGrain]

Agree, but wlad is also 100 times better than those big fighters, who Louis won...

Yes, this is true (apart from the 100 times bit).

Each would be the best fighter the other had ever faced.

[Drew101]

"You've just made a case for dumbest poster. Louis knocked out some guy's who were Wlad's size or bigger than Wlad. Just because him and Byrd are the same weight doesn't mean they have the same punch stupid. Louis hit 100 times harder than Byrd."

Agree, but wlad is also 100 times better than those big fighters, who Louis won...

In terms of physical ability, I'd have to agree, but, in terms of skill-set, Louis has a decided edge over the likes of Sanders and Brewster. He possessed faster hands and much better punching techique, and he was sound enough from a defensive standpoint to work his way inside against many taller fighters who possessed a pretty decent jab.

Louis wasn't a small guy...as stated before, he trained more for speed than for strength, so concentrated on keeping his weight down, rather than bulking up. He was big enough that his punches would have a significant impact on any of today's heavyweights, and he was good enough to ensure that his punches would connect.

Wlad's the best of today's heavyweights, and a vitory over Louis isn't necessarily inconceiveavle...but, I don't see it happening.

Louis KO 10.

[TheGreat]

If Sanders, Purrity, and Brewster were able to KO him than Louis would also be able to take him down.

[Decker]

If Sanders, Purrity, and Brewster were able to KO him than Louis would also be able to take him down.Deep analysis. Here's a counter. None of Wlads losses were 10 count KO's. Louis was KO'd by fading CWT Schmeling; shook up & decked by Galento, whose road work consisted of going from the dinner table to the kitchen for another plate of pasta. Galento could throw some round house bombs from that low crouch of his, but he wouldn't touch Wlad, never mind drop him. Btw, I move like Billy Conn in his prime compared to "2 ton" Tony :lol:; speaking of Conn, he gave a prime Louis fits - as a SMW :shock: do you think Calzaghe could give Wlad fits for 13 rounds? :nut CWT Walcott dropped a 33 year old Louis twice en route to getting robbed. Its not even fair to mention the KTFO loss to 184 lb Marciano - Joe was way past it by then, but wasn't that old.

Very, very unlikely Wlad losses or gets dropped by a ring worn Max, fat ass Tony G, a near 34 year old Walcott; or gets pushed by any SMW.

Buddy Bear, Abe Simon, and Primo were the only name, real big HWs Joe faced, and they were all klutzes compared to Wlad, Lennox, and many other current HWs. Many recent or current HWs would have a good chance vs JL - Tyson, Holly to name a few more.

[Sakura]

In terms of physical ability, I'd have to agree, but, in terms of skill-set, Louis has a decided edge over the likes of Sanders and Brewster. He possessed faster hands and much better punching techique, and he was sound enough from a defensive standpoint to work his way inside against many taller fighters who possessed a pretty decent jab.

Louis wasn't a small guy...as stated before, he trained more for speed than for strength, so concentrated on keeping his weight down, rather than bulking up. He was big enough that his punches would have a significant impact on any of today's heavyweights, and he was good enough to ensure that his punches would connect.

Wlad's the best of today's heavyweights, and a vitory over Louis isn't necessarily inconceiveavle...but, I don't see it happening.

Louis KO 10.

It's same that if i've say'ed Wlad can ko Lewis easily if Mccall can do it, or ALi, because...Brewster and Purritty won, because wlads bad stamina(it's fixed)...Sanders lost was clear and simply lost..sanders is big, fast and powerfull fighter, he give vitali real trouble in first rounds and do it better than lewis.:deal

Try to compare Louis and wlads opponents weights and you see Louis opponents are mostly cruiserweights guys...i cant see they go till end with wlad.
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[Sonny Carson]

Deep analysis. Here's a counter. None of Wlads losses were 10 count KO's. Louis was KO'd by fading CWT Schmeling; shook up & decked by Galento, whose road work consisted of going from the dinner table to the kitchen for another plate of pasta. Galento could throw some round house bombs from that low crouch of his, but he wouldn't touch Wlad, never mind drop him. Btw, I move like Billy Conn in his prime compared to "2 ton" Tony :lol:; speaking of Conn, he gave a prime Louis fits - as a SMW :shock: do you think Calzaghe could give Wlad fits for 13 rounds? :nut CWT Walcott dropped a 33 year old Louis twice en route to getting robbed. Its not even fair to mention the KTFO loss to 184 lb Marciano - Joe was way past it by then, but wasn't that old.

Very, very unlikely Wlad losses or gets dropped by a ring worn Max, fat ass Tony G, a near 34 year old Walcott; or gets pushed by any SMW.


Buddy Bear, Abe Simon, and Primo were the only name, real big HWs Joe faced, and they were all klutzes compared to Wlad, Lennox, and many other current HWs. Many recent or current HWs would have a good chance vs JL - Tyson, Holly to name a few more.

Galento could punch and Klitchsko chin isn't all that good so he could knock him down. Louis KO'ed people with granite chins like Baer, Galento, and Braddock so he could definitely knock Wlad out.

[BewareofDawg]

Galento could punch and Klitchsko chin isn't all that good so he could knock him down. Louis KO'ed people with granite chins like Baer and Braddock so he could definitely knock Wlad out.
Those guys were both 6'2" and around 200lbs.

Look it isn't taking anything away from those guys back then. Everything is relative to its time. Wlad is just HUGE compared to anyone those guys had to even consider facing. And the guys that were close to Wlads size were in no way as physically gifted, agile or skilled as him :deal Most of the Heavyweights back then were under 215lbs, a good percentage even under 200lbs. Wlad gets constantly bashed on for fighting smaller men...Byrd, Castillo, etc...and they are heavier then the "big guys" back then. Would Wlad beat all of those guys 10 times out of 10....MAYBE NOT :deal But I guaruntee you he would be the toughest challenge anyone of them would have to face and I wouldn't favor any of those guys against him.

Honestly, just picture what Wlad would have done to Billy frigg'n Conn :yikes

[Sonny Carson]

Those guys were both 6'2" and around 200lbs.

Look it isn't taking anything away from those guys back then. Everything is relative to its time. Wlad is just HUGE compared to anyone those guys had to even consider facing. And the guys that were close to Wlads size were in no way as physically gifted, agile or skilled as him :deal Most of the Heavyweights back then were under 215lbs, a good percentage even under 200lbs. Wlad gets constantly bashed on for fighting smaller men...Byrd, Castillo, etc...and they are heavier then the "big guys" back then. Would Wlad beat all of those guys 10 times out of 10....MAYBE NOT :deal But I guaruntee you he would be the toughest challenge anyone of them would have to face and I wouldn't favor any of those guys against him.


Honestly, just picture what Wlad would have done to Billy frigg'n Conn :yikes
Being bigger doesn't make you take a punch better.

[BewareofDawg]

Being bigger doesn't make you take a punch better.
No. But being much smaller limits the amount of power you can get on it. And if we are accustomed to seeing a guy hit 200lbers and suddenly have to watch him try and have the same success on a 245lber....who is solid muscle, the results may be much different.

I'm more concerned with exactly how those fighters would deal with Wlads shots :deal Not the other way around. Everything has changed. Back then the fighters were simply smaller and couldn't possibly generate the same amount of force and power as the fighters today.

And Honestly, I know Marciano was viewed as a huge puncher back then....but if he was around today:

1. He wouldn't even qualify as a HW, so he wouldn't be fighting them anyway
2. If he was fighting todays "awfully weak" division of Heavyweights he wouldn't have nearly as much success with his Power Shots. :deal :deal :deal

[BewareofDawg]

Rocky Marciano only fought 9 guys over 200lbs. 9!!!!!!! :deal

Joe Louis was the 2nd heaviest guy he ever fought at around 215lbs :deal