ESB Classic Forum All-Time Rankings by Division - P4P Survey Updated in October 2011

[Rumsfeld]

I will just use this thread to post all of our results.

HEAVYWEIGHT DIVISION RESULTS:

1. 1675 Muhammad Ali (52)
2. 1375 Joe Louis (23)
3. 638 Rocky Marciano (1)
4. 580 Larry Holmes
5. 488 Lennox Lewis (1)
6. 462 Jack Johnson (1)
7. 318 (tie) George Foreman
7. 318 (tie) Jack Dempsey (2)
9. 233 Mike Tyson
10. 221 Joe Frazier

Heavyweights Receiving Votes: 22
Number of Voting Participants: 80
Poll Started: June 23, 2009
Poll Closed: July 19, 2009

To read and debate the All-Time Heavyweight Poll:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

To read the article inspired by this survey:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT DIVISION RESULTS:

1. 971 Ezzard Charles (30)
2. 652 Archie Moore (4)
3. 557 Gene Tunney (8 )
4. 452 Sam Langford (4)
5. 328 Michael Spinks (1)
6. 288 Bob Foster
7. 181 Harry Greb
8. 148 Billy Conn
9. 140 Tommy Loughran
10. 81 Bob Fitzsimmons

Light Heavyweights Receiving Votes: 26
Number of Voting Participants: 47
Poll Started: July 20, 2009
Poll Closed: August 20, 2009

To read and debate the All-Time Light Heavyweight Poll:
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

To read the article inspired by this survey:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

MIDDLEWEIGHT DIVISION RESULTS:

1. 736 Carlos Monzon (13)
2. 718 Harry Greb (15)
3. 606 Marvin Hagler (8 )
4. 513 Sugar Ray Robinson (5)
5. 214 Bernard Hopkins
6. 155 Bob Fitzsimmons (2)
7. 140 Charles Burley
8. 121 Stanley Ketchel
9. 120 Mickey Walker
10. 116 Dick Tiger

Middleweights Receiving Votes: 36
Number of Voting Participants: 45
Poll Started: August 26, 2009
Poll Closed: September 23, 2009

To read and debate the All-Time Middleweight Poll:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

To read the article inspired by this survey:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

WELTERWEIGHT DIVISION RESULTS:

1. 1049 Sugar Ray Robinson (41)
2. 524 Sugar Ray Leonard
3. 322 Henry Armstrong
4. 301 Jose Napoles
5. 275 Kid Gavilan
6. 207 Emile Griffith
7. 174 Tommy Hearns
8. 129 Luis Rodriguez
9. 111 Barbados Joe Walcott
10. 87 Mickey Walker

Welterweights Receiving Votes: 35
Number of Voting Participants: 43
Poll Started: September 23, 2009
Poll Closed: October 22, 2009

To read and debate the All-Time Welterweight Poll:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

To read the article inspired by this survey:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

LIGHTWEIGHT DIVISION RESULTS:

1. 605 Roberto Duran (15)
2. 593 Benny Leonard (14)
3. 348 Joe Gans (2)
4. 243 Pernell Whitaker
5. 230 Henry Armstrong
6. 217 Ike Williams
7. 168 Carlos Ortiz
8. 87 Tony Canzoneri
9. 51 Barney Ross
10. 47 Jack McAulife (1)

Lightweights Receiving Votes: 27
Number of Voting Participants: 32
Poll Started: October 30, 2009
Poll Closed: November 19, 2009


([Only registered and activated users can see links])To read and debate the All-Time Lightweight Poll:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

To read the article inspired by this survey:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

FEATHERWEIGHT DIVISION RESULTS:

1. 547 Willie Pep (13)
2. 442 Henry Armstrong (6)
3. 399 Sandy Saddler(4)
4. 314 Salvador Sanchez (5)
5. 129 Abe Attell (1)
6. 115 Jim Driscoll
7. 109 Alexis Arguello
8. 88 Vincente Saldivar
9. 67 Manny Pacquiao (1)
10. 61 George Dixon

Featherweights Receiving Votes: 28
Number of Voting Participants: 30
Poll Started: December 9, 2009
Poll Closed: January 19, 2010

To read and debate the All-Time Featherweight Poll:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

To read the article inspired by this survey:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

BANTAMWEIGHT DIVISION RESULTS:

1. 470 Eder Jofre (14)
2. 301 Ruben Olivares (4)
3. 256 Manuel Ortiz (1)
4. 186 Panama Al Brown (2)
5. 183 Terry McGovern (1)
6. 165 Carlos Zarate
7. 135 George Dixon (1)
8. 77 Fighting Harada
9. 64 Pete Herman
10. 15 Bud Taylor

Bantamweights Receiving Votes: 26
Number of Voting Participants: 23
Poll Started: February 10, 2010
Poll Closed: April 27, 2010

To read and debate the All-Time Bantamweight Poll:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

To read the article inspired by this survey:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

FLYWEIGHT DIVISION RESULTS:

1. 357 Jimmy Wilde (12)
2. 244 Miguel Canto (4)
3. 151 Pascual Perez
4. 125 Pancho Villa
5. 113 Benny Lynch
6. 97 Fidel LaBarba
7. 51 Frankie Genaro
8. 45 Pongsaklek Wonjongkam
9. 43 Midget Wolgast
10. 25 Newsboy Brown

Flyweights Receiving Votes: 24
Number of Voting Participants: 16
Poll Started: April 29, 2010
Poll Closed: September 22, 2010

To read and debate the All-Time Flyweight Poll:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

To read the article inspired by this survey:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

P4P RESULTS:

1. 1102 Sugar Ray Robinson (34)
2. 677 Harry Greb (7)
3. 617 Henry Armstrong (2)
4. 542 Sam Langford (8)
5. 265 Ezzard Charles
6. 236 Roberto Duran
7. 231 Muhammad Ali (1)
8. 179 Bob Fitzsimmons (2)
9. 152 Willie Pep
10. 138 Benny Leonard (1)

Fighters Receiving Votes: 41
Number of Voting Participants: 56
Poll Started: September 23, 2010
Poll Closed: October 27, 2010

To read and debate the All-Time P4P Poll:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Rattler]

Mike Tyson making that list is ridiculous.

[Rumsfeld]

Mike Tyson making that list is ridiculous.

I honestly don't think he belongs there, either, but he's somewhere close to my top 10.

[IntentionalButt]

Way too few points for Holmes. I didn't realize there was a cutoff date. :verysad

[Mirko]

Mike Tyson making that list is ridiculous.

not.

[bored]

No Liston? ESB is crazy!

[Rumsfeld]

No Liston? ESB is crazy!

Liston finished 11th JUST outside the top ten.

[IntentionalButt]

Not that it'll change anything but can I kick Larry 25 pts just to get him over the 600 hump?

He was more than one third the fighter Clay was (as this ranking indicates)!

[Zakman]

Lewis overrated. No surprise there.

[McGrain]

Lewis overrated. No surprise there.


Yeah. EVERYONE overates him except you.

Have a word with yourself.

[Zakman]

Yeah. EVERYONE overates him except you.

Not everyone.

[McGrain]

Not everyone.

ESB Classic, as a whole, has overated him according to you.

There's a clue in there somewhere.

[Rattler]

ESB Classic, as a whole, has overated him according to you.

There's a clue in there somewhere.

Zakman is misguided.

I will have my cookie now.

[PetethePrince]

Actually, I think Lewis is overrated too. Relax with the retorts McGrain.

[Sweet Pea]

I generally think Lennox is pretty overrated as well. Not nearly as much as Zakman, though.

[teeto]

Wether he is overrated in terms of ability or not, Lennox is clearly inside the top ten.

[keith]

I think Foreman is the morst overrated guy in the list. Out of 0ver 100 years of heavyweight fighting, Foreman spent roughly 1.5 years as the best heavyweight in the world.

To me that doesn't get you in the top ten.

Keith

[teeto]

I think Foreman is the morst overrated guy in the list. Out of 0ver 100 years of heavyweight fighting, Foreman spent roughly 1.5 years as the best heavyweight in the world.

To me that doesn't get you in the top ten.

Keith
It's subjective though, he fought in a golden era, got some very good wins, and has that second career which can bolster his standing. I'm not a Foreman fan or anything, just playing Devil's advocate.

[keith]

It's subjective though, he fought in a golden era, got some very good wins, and has that second career which can bolster his standing. I'm not a Foreman fan or anything, just playing Devil's advocate.


It's obviously subjective, but I can't rate anyone in the top ten who didn't spend at least 1 % of the time as the best fighter.

Keith

[teeto]

It's obviously subjective, but I can't rate anyone in the top ten who didn't spend at least 1 % of the time as the best fighter.

Keith
Yeah it's more resume than time with a belt though imo. Maybe if he fought in a less stacked era he would be dominant, you just don't know.

Again, just devil's advocate really.

[PetethePrince]

Wether he is overrated in terms of ability or not, Lennox is clearly inside the top ten.

In your mind. He doesn't make my top 10 list.

As for Foreman. I think he gets underrated here and on ESB. Monster era with a lot of big ones and good performances.

[teeto]

In your mind. He doesn't make my top 10 list.

As for Foreman. I think he gets underrated here and on ESB. Monster era with a lot of big ones and good performances.
Yeah, in my mind!

[DemolitionDan]

Just curious, but why just the original 8 divisions why not do the Super and Junior weights as well?

As for the Foreman discussion I feel he is one of the best Heavyweights of All Time. He was in a great era of Heavyweight Boxing. He destroyed fighters like Frazier, and Norton who are great themselves. He got beat by the best Heavyweight of All Time, and there is no shame in that. I wouldn't put Wladimir Klitschko ahead of a fighter like Foreman just because Wlad has pretty much been the best for about 3 years now.

[Rumsfeld]

Just curious, but why just the original 8 divisions why not do the Super and Junior weights as well?

We may get to that eventually.

For now, the goal is 8 original weight classes followed by all-time P4P rankings.

:smoke

[Sweet Pea]

Just curious, but why just the original 8 divisions why not do the Super and Junior weights as well?

Because noone in their right mind would try to do a 32 man Tournament with Cruiserweights or Strawweights.

[Flea Man]

Because noone in their right mind would try to do a 32 man Tournament with Cruiserweights or Strawweights.

:lol:

[teeto]

Because noone in their right mind would try to do a 32 man Tournament with Cruiserweights or Strawweights.
Wow, just imagine the strawweight one, i might not even get involved if someone does that tournament.

[Flea Man]

Wow, just imagine the strawweight one, i might not even get involved if someone does that tournament.

Well, I think the winner is pretty much clear. Unless anyone knows of someone who could have a GOOD case for beating Lopez?

[teeto]

Well, I think the winner is pretty much clear.

I know, as if Yutaka Niida's name isn't already on the trophy:lol::lol:

[Flea Man]

I know, as if Yutaka Niida's name isn't already on the trophy:lol::lol:
All jokes aside, Niida was good.

[teeto]

All jokes aside, Niida was good.
Yeah, he would defo be in the semis, possily the final.

[BoppaZoo]

Were is the Light Heavy Rankings now the poll is closed.

Keen to see them Rummy.

[teeto]

Were is the Light Heavy Rankings now the poll is closed.

Keen to see them Rummy.
Same here, let's get this show on the road, the anticipation is tortorous!

[BoppaZoo]

Same here, let's get this show on the road, the anticipation is tortorous!Still nothing Teeto were is Rummy.

I just want to know the final result to see if Roy made the top ten.

He is a freak Jones Jr and i hope for the sake of every fan out there Roy makes the cut.

[teeto]

Still nothing Teeto were is Rummy.

I just want to know the final result to see if Roy made the top ten.

He is a freak Jones Jr and i hope for the sake of every fan out there Roy makes the cut.
I think Rummy is on the job as we speak, might be a bit of a task counting everything up. Don't get your hopes up about Roy mate, when all's said and done, this is the Classic forum!

You never know though.

[Journey Man]

Joe only 10th?

[essexboy]

Well I'm glad Charles is top of the light-heavyweights, thats where I had him. Archie Moore second seems right. Cant argue about Tunney or Langford though its hard to place Langford. Nice to see Greb on there though I expected him higher. Also nice to see Fitzsimmons on the list. Not bad overall although I would have liked to have seen 'Philadelphia' Jack O'Brien maybe sneak on.

[BoppaZoo]

Greb making the list of 175 all time does that mean it excludes him from 160.

[essexboy]

Greb making the list of 175 all time does that mean it excludes him from 160.

No you can him in the top ten in more than one division, its not exclusive. Greb will be in at 175 and 160 most probably, maybe even top at 160, thats where I had him. I fully expect Robinson to be in at 160 and probably top at 147. There will be even more in the lower divisions no doubt. Vote if you havent already done so, the middleweight division is difficult though.

[Rumsfeld]

Greb making the list of 175 all time does that mean it excludes him from 160.

Nope.

There is no specific criteria.

We just go by division, and provide a top ten list.

[BoppaZoo]

Nope.

There is no specific criteria.

We just go by division, and provide a top ten list.sweet have no problem with it just thought id ask.

[Bummy Davis]

collectively a pretty solid list...I dont agree with it all but its hard to squeeze so many great ones into 10

[anarci]

Lewis is overated in my opinion hes lucky to be in the top 10,i think holyfield should be in his place and lewis should be 11 or 10 at best,holyfield had seen better days when he fought lennox even at maybe 80% he nearly pulled it out in the second fight with lewis, also i think tyson deserves a top 10 no doubt hes around 7,also holmes is 3

[anarci]

Where do i vote on middleweights?

[Rumsfeld]

Where do i vote on middleweights?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

:good

[Rumsfeld]

Guys, I have updated the middleweight rankings.

Welterweight poll is up!
:good

[teeto]

I don't ever want to hear people claiming Burley is underrated again!

Time to put in my 147 list.

[Mr Butt]

why burley and fitz so low










:lol::lol::lol:

[teeto]

why burley and fitz so low










:lol::lol::lol:

:lol::lol:

[Journey Man]

Why no RJJ?

[teeto]

Why no RJJ?
At middleweight?

[Black Eyes To You]

Lewis overrated. No surprise there.
:nod

[Black Eyes To You]

Wether he is overrated in terms of ability or not, Lennox is clearly inside the top ten.
Lewis doesn't belong in the top 10. History will put him there without doubt. Brit nuthuggery will not help one iota.:good

[teeto]

Lewis doesn't belong in the top 10. History will put him there without doubt. Brit nuthuggery will not help one iota.:good
He clearly does to me. Not sure if the brit nuthuggery is aimed at me, but anyone will tell you there's not an ounce of that coming from this direction. To be blunt, i disliked Lennox as a fighter, quite a bit.

[BoppaZoo]

When's the Poll on the Welters finish.

[Rumsfeld]

When's the Poll on the Welters finish.

It's finished.

:good

[BoppaZoo]

It's finished.

:goodCheers Rummy.

Did you get in touch with Webmaster on Tszyu's website about being on the show Rummy.

Im positive he will do it. Kostya.

[bigphilla1]

roy jones shud be among da top 10 light-heavys

[IntentionalButt]

roy jones shud be among da top 10 light-heavys

BEDbeGrYx44

[Jeff M]

Lennox Lewis is a top 10 HW, and IMO but Roy Jones is easily a top 10 LHW.

[Jeff M]

Are you going to do a top 10 for 140 or 135 pound divisions in the future?

[IntentionalButt]

Are you going to do a top 10 for 140 or 135 pound divisions in the future?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[IntentionalButt]

Lennox Lewis is a top 10 HW, and IMO but Roy Jones is easily a top 10 LHW.

LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT DIVISION RESULTS:

1. 971 Ezzard Charles (30)
2. 652 Archie Moore (4)
3. 557 Gene Tunney (8 )
4. 452 Sam Langford (4)
5. 328 Michael Spinks (1)
6. 288 Bob Foster
7. 181 Harry Greb
8. 148 Billy Conn
9. 140 Tommy Loughran
10. 81 Bob Fitzsimmons

Light Heavyweights Receiving Votes: 26
Number of Voting Participants: 47
Poll Started: July 20, 2009
Poll Closed: August 20, 2009

To read and debate the All-Time Light Heavyweight Poll:
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

To read the article inspired by this survey:
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

Who there do you bump for him?

[Jeff M]

Who there do you bump for him?

Ehhh...tough question..I suppose I am a bit over-nostalgic about Roy..due to becoming a boxing fan because of his amazing display of skill I was in awe of as a kid...:think

[PowerPuncher]

Mike Tyson making that list is ridiculous.

Yea the fact hes achieved more than Dempsey/Frazier/Foreman is irrelevant as is the likelyhood he'd walk through Marciano/Johnson/Frazier/Dempsey within a round

[teeto]

Yea the fact hes achieved more than Dempsey/Frazier/Foreman is irrelevant as is the likelyhood he'd walk through Marciano/Johnson/Frazier/Dempsey within a round
Take out the words 'Marciano', 'within', 'a', and 'round' and we got a deal.

[McGrain]

Tyson couldn't even get through Tyrell Biggs in a round.

[DemolitionDan]

I don't see how Ezzard Charles is number 1 All-Time at Light Heavyweight when he never was World Champion at LHW.

[KOTF]

I don't see how Ezzard Charles is number 1 All-Time at Light Heavyweight when he never was World Champion at LHW.

You see the #2 guy on that list, Archie Moore?

He beat him three times.

[DemolitionDan]

You see the #2 guy on that list, Archie Moore?

He beat him three times.

Yep, I know, and Marciano beat Louis. So, by your theory Marciano is better than Louis?

[Grinder]

Mike Tyson making that list is ridiculous.

Did you draw your avatar too?

Although it is pure speculation, Tyson in his prime was the most lethal fighter ever.

[WhataRock]

Yep, I know, and Marciano beat Louis. So, by your theory Marciano is better than Louis?

Completely different situation.

Moore already had a solid resume at the weight and would go on to do a hell of a lot more in the coming years. He was not a faded ex champ.

Ezzard beat all the best light heavies of the day...Lesnevich, Maxim and Moore pretty much between them held the title for 15 years. Charles beat them all, Maxim and Moore multiple times, proving he was the man of the division whilst they shared it.
Lloyd Marshall and Jimmy Bivins were as good if not better then any champ at the time they were fighting but were never given a shot to prove it. Charles beat them both several times.

The fact he never held a belt is really irrelevant.

[Sweet Pea]

Yep, I know, and Marciano beat Louis. So, by your theory Marciano is better than Louis?

Charles beat a prime Moore 3 times. Marciano beat an aged Louis who'd already previously retired once. There's no correlation here. When you throw in the fact that Charles's resume at the weight outside of their series equals Moore's than it's quite clear why he'd rank above him. He never won the title because he was never given a shot at it, despite beating everyone there was to beat. You can't fault him for that, especially considering he beat the #1 guy multiple times in emphatic fashion.

[Minotauro]

Charles is clearly the most deserving to be placed number one at light heavy. When is the lightweight list coming out?

[GregDempsey]

Who there do you bump for him?
bob fitz...because he wasnt a lightheavy..he was a middleweight then heavyweight..they didnt have lightheavy when he fought. sucks for him because he was a great fighter....

[Flea Man]

Jeff M will probably attest to Valero beating every Lightweight that makes the list :lol:

[IntentionalButt]

Rummy, any idea what the deadline for bantamweights might end up being once that survey kicks off?

[burt bienstock]

inthe alltime lightweight poll of ESB,I would put Benny Leonard NO I, because he dominated the lightweight division for 7 years, against the strongest challengers in the history of the division. Duran ,I would place along with Ike Williams, and Tony Canzoneri, NO 2 and 3, with Joe Gans, great fighter of the long ago past in the mix....But for ESB poll ,putting Pernell Whitaker NO4 is ludercrous...For example, Henry Armstrong, or a young, volume punching Beau Jack [who I saw many times],wouldsimply overwhelm Whitaker. Pernell could only dodge so many bullets, before his luck would run out...I would also bet the ranch that Shane Mosely as lightweight would whip Whitaker.....

[Sweet Pea]

inthe alltime lightweight poll of ESB,I would put Benny Leonard NO I, because he dominated the lightweight division for 7 years, against the strongest challengers in the history of the division. Duran ,I would place along with Ike Williams, and Tony Canzoneri, NO 2 and 3, with Joe Gans, great fighter of the long ago past in the mix....But for ESB poll ,putting Pernell Whitaker NO4 is ludercrous...For example, Henry Armstrong, or a young, volume punching Beau Jack [who I saw many times],wouldsimply overwhelm Whitaker. Pernell could only dodge so many bullets, before his luck would run out...I would also bet the ranch that Shane Mosely as lightweight would whip Whitaker.....

Good for yoooouuuu!:good

[Bummy Davis]

inthe alltime lightweight poll of ESB,I would put Benny Leonard NO I, because he dominated the lightweight division for 7 years, against the strongest challengers in the history of the division. Duran ,I would place along with Ike Williams, and Tony Canzoneri, NO 2 and 3, with Joe Gans, great fighter of the long ago past in the mix....But for ESB poll ,putting Pernell Whitaker NO4 is ludercrous...For example, Henry Armstrong, or a young, volume punching Beau Jack [who I saw many times],wouldsimply overwhelm Whitaker. Pernell could only dodge so many bullets, before his luck would run out...I would also bet the ranch that Shane Mosely as lightweight would whip Whitaker.....


I agree with that Burt. I have the lighweights ranked about the same. I also think Armstrong would be too much for Pea W. as high as I rate him among modern fighters. Shane may be getting up there in age but if he get in good form and pulls one out of the past he will give Floyd a good match. Shane takes more chances than Floyd. However I like shane at 130-147, I think 154 is not where he does his best work although he did great vs Margarito

[Brian123]

Ali is too high-as usual! Good list though.

Bob Fitzsimmons is a little low but he jumped around in weight so much, P4P he is top 3 all-time imo.

[Pachilles]

Ali is too high-as usual! Good list though.

Bob Fitzsimmons is a little low but he jumped around in weight so much, P4P he is top 3 all-time imo.

Duran Duran, Duran Greb Duran, Jeffries Langford Langford. Duran Greb Dempsey, Duran Dempsey Dempsey Fitz Langford Fitz...

[enquirer]

Whats wrong with you boy?
Dont you know 'duran duran' is the greatest band of them all? :lol:

[Pachilles]

Whats wrong with you boy?
Dont you know 'duran duran' is the greatest band of them all? :lol:

I've been picking up the language, i now speak classic

oh and did you know Duran Duran have a song called Palomino

[enquirer]

What about missy elliots 'hoya hoya'? PACPACPAC,PAC it in....LEt me begin.....JUMP around....:smoke

[Pachilles]

What about missy elliots 'hoya hoya'? PACPACPAC,PAC it in....LEt me begin.....JUMP around....:smoke

Pacquiao would knock the absolute living fuck out of Duran at 140lbs. He'd overwhelm him with his superior speed and punch output. Then after 4 rounds he would break his nose with a straight left. Seeing his own blood Duran would exclaim "No mas, senor Pacquiao, no mas!" and quit like a bitch, AGAIN! Pac has too much heart for Duran, he is a quitter, he quit.

[enquirer]

:nut Pac was knocked out clean boyo by a flyweight,and barely got past JMM... He also lost to a 130er in eric....

[cross_trainer]

Pac has too much heart for Duran, he is a quitter, he quit.

But surely not a quitting quitter who quit?

[Jersey Joe]

Yea the fact hes achieved more than Dempsey/Frazier/Foreman is irrelevant as is the likelyhood he'd walk through Marciano/Johnson/Frazier/Dempsey within a round

So James Tillis and Mitch Green can last the distance with prime Tyson, yet Marciano, Johnson, Frazier and Dempsey can't even last one round? You do realise that some of the journeymen he fought in his first 15 fights lasted more than one round, right? Perhaps you could explain why 4 hall of fame heavyweight champsions who defended their belts repeatedly would do so much worse than the contenders, journeymen, and bums that Tyson fought before he won the championship.

[Son of Gaul]

I still believe if you put all those guys in a 10x10 room, I'd put my money on Joe Frazier being the last man standing.

[essexboy]

I still believe if you put all those guys in a 10x10 room, I'd put my money on Joe Frazier being the last man standing.

He wouldnt even come out of a room with George Foreman standing let alone all of them.

[burt bienstock]

Heck I would take Freddie SteeleTo put Carlos
onzon ahead of Geb or Robinson is ludercrous...Indeed over some others is a travisty..What great fighter [in their prime] did he beat...He was a good and long right hand puncher, but a slow methodical fighter fighting in a weak division. Heck I would take Freddie Steele,at Steele's peak over Monzon ..Look at Steele' opposition...Monzon great, but certainly overated...

[Jorodz]

Heck I would take Freddie SteeleTo put Carlos
onzon ahead of Geb or Robinson is ludercrous...Indeed over some others is a travisty..What great fighter [in their prime] did he beat...He was a good and long right hand puncher, but a slow methodical fighter fighting in a weak division. Heck I would take Freddie Steele,at Steele's peak over Monzon ..Look at Steele' opposition...Monzon great, but certainly overated...

i agree that carlos is often overrated but based on longevity and talent he should rate quite highly. the fact that steele isn't on there at all is quite odd now that i think about it considering his record

[sugarsean]

What happened to the bantamweight poll

[Rumsfeld]

What happened to the bantamweight poll

Been too busy transcribing and doing other things recently.

Will TRY my best to get to it by the end of this week.

:good

Apologies for the delay.

Only two surveys to go after this one.

[teeto]

Been too busy transcribing and doing other things recently.

Will TRY my best to get to it by the end of this week.

:good

Apologies for the delay.

Only two surveys to go after this one.
What's the two? Flyweight and..... don't say p4p? Please not p4p!

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Lennox Lewis is definitely overrated. I am not saying that he wasn't a great boxer, because he was. He is also a tough matchup head 2 head for everyone. However, based on accomplishments... he just doesn't add up.

During Lewis' era... he didn't fight any of the other top fighters out there in their prime. At that time you had Mike Tyson, Riddick Bowe, Evander Holyfield, Michael Moorer, and George Foreman sitting on top of the division. Lennox failed to fight any of them while they were all fighting each other at their peak. Lennox wasn't even considered a real Champion until he beat Evander Holyfield.

Lewis' supposedly "great" title reign consisted of wins over

Michael Grant - We all know that Grant was a horribly overhyped boxer who was never very good.

Frans Botha - Tyson had just knocked him out a year earlier. I have no idea why Botha got a title shot.

David Tua - Very good win. However, Lewis was criticized in this fight for being safe and boring. I think he did what he needed to do, and it was a good win.

Hasim Rahman - Knocked Lewis out.

Hasim Rahman - Lewis wins back his titles.

Mike Tyson - Lewis beat an extremely over the hill version of Tyson. Pointless win other than satisfying the curiosity of a lot of fans who had a very hard time letting Tyson go. Many still do.

Vitali Klitschko - Lewis down on all scorecards is possibly saved from losing his title by way of Doctor stoppage due to a cut.


That is NOT an impressive reign as Champion. Especially when we also consider that he was stripped by the WBA for not fighting his #1 contender... then stripped by the IBF for not fighitng his #1 contender... and last but not least... sat on his title for 8 months after his fight with Klitschko, trying to sue Mike Tyson back into the ring again... promises the fans and Klitschko a much needed and talked about rematch. Made Vitali jump through hoops in order to secure the rematch. Then, once the WBC demands that Lewis either begin negotiations with Vitali or be stripped of his title... Lewis retires.

What bothers me the most is that Lewis sat there through the 90's complaining about nobody wanting to give him his shot. Trashing Bowe for vacating the title rather than fighting him. Yet... IMMEDIATELY when Lewis became the recognized Champ, he did the exact same thing. Lewis ultimately Vacated all 3 of his titles to avoid fighting his #1 contenders.

That along with the fact that he never beat the best fighters of his era in their prime... Had a very ordinary title reign... and really never gave the fans the biggest fights that they wanted to see. Including a showdown with Wladimir Klitschko who was Lewis' #1 contender by Ring Magazine for 2 years.

Let's also not cry about Lewis not being given a shot at fighting one of top guys in his division earlier in the 90's either. Lewis accepted step aside money from Tyson, rather than taking the fight which was his if he wanted it. Of course it made perfect sense for Tyson to offer step aside money. Tyson wanted to fight for another title, a bigger payday, and a bigger fight. It was Lewis' own fault that he decided to accept the step aside money and was shut out of the mix. Had he taken the fight and beat Tyson. The division would have went through him. Instead, he was content to stay in the backround until all of the other stars burned out.

[Rumsfeld]

What's the two? Flyweight and..... don't say p4p? Please not p4p!

:lol:

I've said all along, original 8 classes plus P4P.

[teeto]

:lol:

I've said all along, original 8 classes plus P4P.
Shit that's going to be hard.

[PH|LLA]

LMFAO At MANKIND was that for real or a joke

[Bummy Davis]

I will just use this thread to post all of our results.

HEAVYWEIGHT DIVISION RESULTS:

1. 1675 Muhammad Ali (52)
2. 1375 Joe Louis (23)
3. 638 Rocky Marciano (1)
4. 580 Larry Holmes
5. 488 Lennox Lewis (1)
6. 462 Jack Johnson (1)
7. 318 (tie) George Foreman
7. 318 (tie) Jack Dempsey (2)
9. 233 Mike Tyson
10. 221 Joe Frazier

Heavyweights Receiving Votes: 22
Number of Voting Participants: 80
Poll Started: June 23, 2009
Poll Closed: July 19, 2009

To read and debate the All-Time Heavyweight Poll:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

To read the article inspired by this survey:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT DIVISION RESULTS:

1. 971 Ezzard Charles (30)
2. 652 Archie Moore (4)
3. 557 Gene Tunney (8 )
4. 452 Sam Langford (4)
5. 328 Michael Spinks (1)
6. 288 Bob Foster
7. 181 Harry Greb
8. 148 Billy Conn
9. 140 Tommy Loughran
10. 81 Bob Fitzsimmons

Light Heavyweights Receiving Votes: 26
Number of Voting Participants: 47
Poll Started: July 20, 2009
Poll Closed: August 20, 2009

To read and debate the All-Time Light Heavyweight Poll:
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

To read the article inspired by this survey:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

MIDDLEWEIGHT DIVISION RESULTS:

1. 736 Carlos Monzon (13)
2. 718 Harry Greb (15)
3. 606 Marvin Hagler (8 )
4. 513 Sugar Ray Robinson (5)
5. 214 Bernard Hopkins
6. 155 Bob Fitzsimmons (2)
7. 140 Charles Burley
8. 121 Stanley Ketchel
9. 120 Mickey Walker
10. 116 Dick Tiger

Middleweights Receiving Votes: 36
Number of Voting Participants: 45
Poll Started: August 26, 2009
Poll Closed: September 23, 2009

To read and debate the All-Time Middleweight Poll:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

To read the article inspired by this survey:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

WELTERWEIGHT DIVISION RESULTS:

1. 1049 Sugar Ray Robinson (41)
2. 524 Sugar Ray Leonard
3. 322 Henry Armstrong
4. 301 Jose Napoles
5. 275 Kid Gavilan
6. 207 Emile Griffith
7. 174 Tommy Hearns
8. 129 Luis Rodriguez
9. 111 Barbados Joe Walcott
10. 87 Mickey Walker

Welterweights Receiving Votes: 35
Number of Voting Participants: 43
Poll Started: September 23, 2009
Poll Closed: October 22, 2009

To read and debate the All-Time Welterweight Poll:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

To read the article inspired by this survey:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

LIGHTWEIGHT DIVISION RESULTS:

1. 605 Roberto Duran (15)
2. 593 Benny Leonard (14)
3. 348 Joe Gans (2)
4. 243 Pernell Whitaker
5. 230 Henry Armstrong
6. 217 Ike Williams
7. 168 Carlos Ortiz
8. 87 Tony Canzoneri
9. 51 Barney Ross
10. 47 Jack McAulife (1)

Welterweights Receiving Votes: 27
Number of Voting Participants: 32
Poll Started: October 30, 2009
Poll Closed: November 19, 2009


([Only registered and activated users can see links])To read and debate the All-Time Lightweight Poll:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

To read the article inspired by this survey:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

FEATHERWEIGHT DIVISION RESULTS:

1. 547 Willie Pep (13)
2. 442 Henry Armstrong (6)
3. 399 Sandy Saddler(4)
4. 314 Salvador Sanchez (5)
5. 129 Abe Attell (1)
6. 115 Jim Driscoll
7. 109 Alexis Arguello
8. 88 Vincente Saldivar
9. 67 Manny Pacquiao (1)
10. 61 George Dixon

Welterweights Receiving Votes: 28
Number of Voting Participants: 30
Poll Started: December 9, 2009
Poll Closed: January 19, 2010

To read and debate the All-Time Featherweight Poll:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

To read the article inspired by this survey:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]


I think for the most part they are good lists much better than some of the so Called Boxing experts, like Monte Cox and Bert Sugar and a few others that THINK they are experts

[Strongback]

HEAVYWEIGHT DIVISION RESULTS:

1. 1675 Muhammad Ali (52)
2. 1375 Joe Louis (23)
3. 638 Rocky Marciano (1)
4. 580 Larry Holmes
5. 488 Lennox Lewis (1)
6. 462 Jack Johnson (1)
7. 318 (tie) George Foreman
7. 318 (tie) Jack Dempsey (2)
9. 233 Mike Tyson
10. 221 Joe Frazier

---------------------------------------------------

Everyone has there own favourites. My names aren't much different to the above but I think Jim Jeffries deserves a place in the 10.
Beating Corbett, Fitzsimmons and Sharkey twice each puts him right up there in terms of opposition beaten.

Here's my Top 10

1. Ali
1. Louis
3. Johnson
4. Holmes
5. Dempsey
6. Foreman
7. Marciano
8. Jeffries
9. Liston
10.Lewis

[D.T]

Heavyweight:

Holyfield not in the top 10? What the hell?


Light heavyweight:
Good rankings, but I think Moore is the best.

Middleweight:
Hagler is the best, followed by Robinson and then Monzon and then Greb (my opinion).

Welterweight:
Good rankings, but Leonard above Armstrong? Some would beg to differ.

Lightweight:
Perfect

Featherweight:
Perfect

[Lunny]

How's Marciano 3rd? I really didn't expect that coming into this thread.

[Nicky P]

very nice lists. about as solid as i've seen.

you cant satisfy everyone i know that, but i have a problem with Lewis's placement, Tyson being above Frazier and no Jake LaMotta? The only man to beat a prime Sugar Ray Robinson. Other than that I like the lists.

[El Bujia]

Light heavyweight:
Good rankings, but I think Moore is the best.How does one justify Moore over Charles?

[Senya13]

very nice lists. about as solid as i've seen.
I'd take Packey McFarland to beat lw#1 in 9 out of 10 bouts.

[El Bujia]

Ooohh man, I bet you're hurtin', Senya. McFarland doesn't get voted on but Jack McAuliffe does. That's harsh. Complete nonsense as well.

[Senya13]

Maybe one day I'll write something on Packey. Would need somebody's help polishing the text though, with my English and writing skills not good enough for such task.

[HURR!CANE]

Cool thread.

[willmc83]

Joe Frazer should be much further up that list. I genuinely wonder if the people who vote for these things have actualy watched these guys box or are their opinions based on articles they've read? conversations they've overheard? the boxers personality outside of the ring?

[combatesdeboxeo]

Mike Tyson making that list is ridiculous.
i agree absolutely

[IntentionalButt]

i agree absolutely

Well, it's certainly good that we have that on record.

[Kalasinn]

Well, it's certainly good that we have that on record.

Surely it's an agrument for Tyson being top 10. :hey

[Liechhardt]

I have Griffo, Famechon & Fenech in there ahead of Pacman.

Rose at Bantam.

Sands & Darcey at middle.

[El Bujia]

I have Griffo, Famechon & Fenech in there ahead of Pacman.

Rose at Bantam.

Sands & Darcey at middle.Do you have a pet kangaroo as well?

[Liechhardt]

Had Sands # 10, Darcey # 12 at 11 st 6
Thompson # 10 at 10 stone
Griffo # 7 at 9 stone
Fenech # 2 at 8.10
Carruthers # 7, Rose # 8 at 8 st 6.

[goat15]

armstrong made three top fives. i think i'd favour him over leonard at welterweight though. solid lists on the whole.

[Rumsfeld]

armstrong made three top fives. i think i'd favour him over leonard at welterweight though. solid lists on the whole.

Sorry guys, I've been so distracted I almost completely forgot about the last survey. I'll get that done soon.

[Surf-Bat]

FLYWEIGHT DIVISION RESULTS:

1. 357 Jimmy Wilde (12)
2. 244 Miguel Canto (4)
3. 151 Pascual Perez
4. 125 Pancho Villa
5. 113 Benny Lynch
6. 97 Fidel LaBarba
7. 51 Frankie Genaro
8. 45 Pongsaklek Wonjongkam
9. 43 Midget Wolgast
10. 25 Newsboy Brown

Just for the record, Wee Willie Davies has wins over THREE of these fighters. Just so ya know...:smoke

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[BronxBull]

Bernard Hopkins is on the middle weight list but not Jake LaMotta?? ridiculous

[Harvin87]

where the hell is JULIO CESAR CHAVEZ ?

[Rumsfeld]

Bernard Hopkins is on the middle weight list but not Jake LaMotta?? ridiculous

How so?

[Rumsfeld]

BTW everyone, I'm going to eventually finish that P4P survey at some point in the foreseeable future.

[lufcrazy]

Having pac in the featherweight list seems dramatically out of place imo. I had him beating both mab and jmm but them two victories alone don't warrant a top ten place surely? Infact marquez himself is a greater fw imo

[Flea Man]

Wonjongkam a top ten fly :lol:

[Flea Man]

Having pac in the featherweight list seems dramatically out of place imo. I had him beating both mab and jmm but them two victories alone don't warrant a top ten place surely? Infact marquez himself is a greater fw imo

Marcel :deal

[FrazierVsTyson]

only correction i would make is that hagler was the best middleweight ever. other than that great job man!

[Boxed Ears]

Wonjongkam a top ten fly :lol:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Leave it alone, Flea! :fire

[1899sharkey]

Jim Jeffries should be on any top ten heavy list. Tyson is barely a top twenty.

[lufcrazy]

Jim Jeffries should be on any top ten heavy list. Tyson is barely a top twenty.

Tyson is one of the most dominant champions in the history of the HW division.

would you have preferred had he fought less frequently, still defeating the same names but over a longer period?

not only that but in 96 he reestablished himself as the best HW in the world, 10 years after first achieveing the feat after destroying trev.

Jeffries is very very great, top 15 IMO. again a hugely dominant champ.

[Gangstarr]

inthe alltime lightweight poll of ESB,I would put Benny Leonard NO I, because he dominated the lightweight division for 7 years, against the strongest challengers in the history of the division. Duran ,I would place along with Ike Williams, and Tony Canzoneri, NO 2 and 3, with Joe Gans, great fighter of the long ago past in the mix....But for ESB poll ,putting Pernell Whitaker NO4 is ludercrous...For example, Henry Armstrong, or a young, volume punching Beau Jack [who I saw many times],wouldsimply overwhelm Whitaker. Pernell could only dodge so many bullets, before his luck would run out...I would also bet the ranch that Shane Mosely as lightweight would whip Whitaker.....

:rofl:rofl Mosley beating whitaker. You must be joking.

[Flea Man]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Leave it alone, Flea! :fire

:lol:

[Brian Zelley]

ALI is rated too high and Ezzard Charles is not the best light-heavyweight

Interesting, heavyweight list, an obvious slant when you have
Ali, Frazier, Holmes, Foreman in the top ten - it is like the good old
boys club of the Seventies with Larry tossed in to bend the result towards the moderns.

Looking at the other divisions, far too many top fighters are missing in action.
Wonder how folks dream -up their choices, is it a cultural thing an age thing,
a race card thing or what?

[Brian Zelley]

ESB Classic, as a whole, has overated him according to you.

There's a clue in there somewhere.

Well there are a few in the list of ten heavyweights that are over-rated
by the starry-eyed voters. You have a heavyweight poll with
ALI - FRAZIER - FOREMAN - HOLMES in the top ten. Now isn't that convenient logic. Build-up ALI to number one spot and to justify his superior standing
boost-up some of his key opponents. Some of the voters must of researched their choices by reading old "World Boxing" and "International Boxing" magazines from the Seventies and Eighties to support their picks in this
difficult decision making process. :hi::happy THE BEST OF BOXING :fire:scaredas::lol::oops:

[Brian Zelley]

BTW everyone, I'm going to eventually finish that P4P survey at some point in the foreseeable future.

Let's hope it doesn't use these poll results as the ground-level source
of the all-time best list because we can already pick the top four
in this fresh new list and I bet your money that three of the top
list will be Ali, Duran and Ray Leonard if these poll results are
any indication of objectivity and fairness.:patsch:rasta

[Rumsfeld]

Let's hope it doesn't use these poll results as the ground-level source
of the all-time best list because we can already pick the top four
in this fresh new list and I bet your money that three of the top
list will be Ali, Duran and Ray Leonard if these poll results are
any indication of objectivity and fairness.:patsch:rasta

Please, do elaborate!

:smoke

[MrOliverKlozoff]

ALI is rated too high and Ezzard Charles is not the best light-heavyweight

Interesting, heavyweight list, an obvious slant when you have
Ali, Frazier, Holmes, Foreman in the top ten - it is like the good old
boys club of the Seventies with Larry tossed in to bend the result towards the moderns.

Looking at the other divisions, far too many top fighters are missing in action.
Wonder how folks dream -up their choices, is it a cultural thing an age thing,
a race card thing or what?

Well there are a few in the list of ten heavyweights that are over-rated
by the starry-eyed voters. You have a heavyweight poll with
ALI - FRAZIER - FOREMAN - HOLMES in the top ten. Now isn't that convenient logic. Build-up ALI to number one spot and to justify his superior standing
boost-up some of his key opponents. Some of the voters must of researched their choices by reading old "World Boxing" and "International Boxing" magazines from the Seventies and Eighties to support their picks in this
difficult decision making process. :hi::happy THE BEST OF BOXING :fire:scaredas::lol::oops:


What the f-...

[Rumsfeld]

Okay! I finally finished everything almost a full year after the fact!

:lol:

Sorry I took so long everyone. Have just been busy with other things!

Thanks to all who have participated.

:cheers

[jacklondon]

I just looked at the first two names on the silly (but "politically correct") list and chucked it. Russians and eastern Europeans and also black Africans and Cuban (expats) weren't even allowed to compete back then, Neither of them ever faced one. They weren't real "world champions". Now they are competing and the results are obvious. The amazing Doctor Klitschko brothers are the two greatest heavyweights of all time period.

[orriray59]

I just looked at the first two names on the silly (but "politically correct") list and chucked it. Russians and eastern Europeans and also black Africans and Cuban (expats) weren't even allowed to compete back then, Neither of them ever faced one. They weren't real "world champions". Now they are competing and the results are obvious. The amazing Doctor Klitschko brothers are the two greatest heavyweights of all time period.

What have either Klitschko brother ever done to suggest that they are better than the people mentioned? Answer this question.

[TAC602]

What have either Klitschko brother ever done to suggest that they are better than the people mentioned? Answer this question.

You haven't seen their case?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Brickhaus]

Bernard Hopkins is on the middle weight list but not Jake LaMotta?? ridiculous

What argument does LaMotta have to be an all-time top 10 MW? He'd be lucky to crack the top 20. Outside of one win against Robinson, what might possibly justify a top 10 spot?

I get the feeling that if they made a movie about Fritzie Zivic, you'd think it's ridiculous that he didn't make the top 10 at WW too.

[El Bujia]

What argument does LaMotta have to be an all-time top 10 MW? He'd be lucky to crack the top 20. Outside of one win against Robinson, what might possibly justify a top 10 spot?Gee, I dunno. Wins over Marcel Cerdan, Jose Basora, Holman Williams, Fritzie Zivic, Tommy Yarosz, Bert Lytell, Robert Villemain, Laurent Dauthuille, George "Sugar" Costner, Bob Satterfield, etc.

I know, I know, it doesn't compare to Hopkins' wins over such Middleweight kingpins as Howard Eastman, William Joppy, Keith Holmes, Syd Vanderpool, and sweeping the trilogy against the almighty Robert Allen.

[Flea Man]

Gee, I dunno. Wins over Marcel Cerdan, Jose Basora, Holman Williams, Fritzie Zivic, Tommy Yarosz, Bert Lytell, Robert Villemain, Laurent Dauthuille, George "Sugar" Costner, Bob Satterfield, etc.

I know, I know, it doesn't compare to Hopkins' wins over such Middleweight kingpins as Howard Eastman, William Joppy, Keith Holmes, Syd Vanderpool, and sweeping the trilogy against the almighty Robert Allen.

Savage.

[lufcrazy]

Gee, I dunno. Wins over Marcel Cerdan, Jose Basora, Holman Williams, Fritzie Zivic, Tommy Yarosz, Bert Lytell, Robert Villemain, Laurent Dauthuille, George "Sugar" Costner, Bob Satterfield, etc.

I know, I know, it doesn't compare to Hopkins' wins over such Middleweight kingpins as Howard Eastman, William Joppy, Keith Holmes, Syd Vanderpool, and sweeping the trilogy against the almighty Robert Allen.

The fights against villemain indicate he was a level above jake.

There's a decent argument that robinson and villemain always ranked above jake. I don't buy into it but am argument could be made none the less.

[El Bujia]

The fights against villemain indicate he was a level above jake.

There's a decent argument that robinson and villemain always ranked above jake. I don't buy into it but am argument could be made none the less.Perhaps he just matched up well with him? It's also quite possible the weight draining was already starting to take its toll on Jake's body. His fight weights were especially high leading up to the last fight with Robinson. LaMotta's achievements outside of those two fights are clearly superior, anyway, and Villemain was a better Middleweight than any Hopkins beat, surely.

[lufcrazy]

Perhaps he just matched up well with him? It's also quite possible the weight draining was already starting to take its toll on Jake's body. His fight weights were especially high leading up to the last fight with Robinson. LaMotta's achievements outside of those two fights are clearly superior, anyway, and Villemain was a better Middleweight than any Hopkins beat, surely.

Yeah bad style matchup definitely. Yeah I read he was a natural lhw who boiled down.

Maybe they are better, who knows? I agree that jake is underrated massively as a mw; but he isn't as great a mw as hopkins was imo. Transposing era's is something I put no stock in and it's beyond question that hopkins was better in his era than jake was in his.

But as a mw, jake should be atleast top 15 and certainly above walker, zale and apostoli.

[Flea Man]

But Jakes era was also a lot better than B-Hops.

[El Bujia]

Transposing era's is something I put no stock inSo, what, you just assume every era is of the same level of quality as any other? If you're doing such extensive research on them (quite speedily for someone who's supposed to be putting so much time into it) surely you'd realise that's far from the case.

Has your research been relegated to researching rankings and paper accomplishments at the expense of watching actual film?

[Flea Man]

Wonjongkam placed eighth?!? :patsch

[lufcrazy]

So, what, you just assume every era is of the same level of quality as any other? If you're doing such extensive research on them (quite speedily for someone who's supposed to be putting so much time into it) surely you'd realise that's far from the case.

Has your research been relegated to researching rankings and paper accomplishments at the expense of watching actual film?

Rather I don't assume one era's quality is significantly stronger such that it makes a difference. Ruling an era is ruling an era. It aint the only thing I rank on obviously, resume plays a huge part as does perceived h2h ability.

Well I started my hw thread how ever long ago I started it (no idea off the top of my head but I think it was 6 month or so ago). So I spend maybe a month on the major divisions and a week on the newer divisions. The speed I post the results up is just arbitary because I do my research on microsoft word and then copy-paste it.

Maybe a month is too speedy and not enough time for a major division, some divisions are harder than others and some are fairly easy.

Of course I appreciate that some era's are stacked and some aren't but that doesn't mean a guy with some success in a strong era would have significantly more in a different era there are just too many variables. Could jake have ruled from 95-2005? I doubt it. H2h i'd favour hopkins over jake and the resume of jake is obviously better as a mw.

No I watch as much film as possible and I spend most evenings watching old fights whilst she watches soaps. The only fights i've put on ice are casamayor's losses at sfw.

[Flea Man]

The way I do it.

How good was the era?

How good were they in there era?

I.e: better to come fourth out of ten in a Worlds Strongest Man contest than first in a spastic race.

[lufcrazy]

The way I do it.

How good was the era?

How good were they in there era?

I.e: better to come fourth out of ten in a Worlds Strongest Man contest than first in a spastic race.

:good and that's a perfectly reasonable way of doing it.

I asked how good is their resume, where they rank in my mythical round robin scenario of the division and what did they actually achieve in their careers. Plus a bonus for intangibles.

I.e. Better to have success in your own era than mythical success in another era.

[Flea Man]

:good and that's a perfectly reasonable way of doing it.

I asked how good is their resume, where they rank in my mythical round robin scenario of the division and what did they actually achieve in their careers. Plus a bonus for intangibles.

I.e. Better to have success in your own era than mythical success in another era.

Hold on....you rank on mythical matchups but not on mythical eras?

Somethinhg very weird here. my rankings mean nothing in terms of 'would he beat him' but are just what the fighter actually achieved in their era/how strong that era was.

Sorry if I'm over complicating things but I seem a little lost mate :huh

[lufcrazy]

Hold on....you rank on mythical matchups but not on mythical eras?

Somethinhg very weird here. my rankings mean nothing in terms of 'would he beat him' but are just what the fighter actually achieved in their era/how strong that era was.

Sorry if I'm over complicating things but I seem a little lost mate :huh

Yeah my overall ranking of a fighter is based on 3 criteria: what they did, who they beat, how well their style matches up against other greats. Then any intangibles.

Each to their own eh?

Gee I love the subjective nature of boxing :good

[Flea Man]

Fair dos, I just go by what actually happened.

Yours is more like 'who is the hardest Power Ranger'? ;-)

[lufcrazy]

Fair dos, I just go by what actually happened.

Yours is more like 'who is the hardest Power Ranger'? ;-)

No it's more like:

Blue power ranger and red power ranger saved the world the same amount of times so how to split them? Well I think red power ranger kicks blue's arse so i'll give him the nod.

[Flea Man]

No it's more like:

Blue power ranger and red power ranger saved the world the same amount of times so how to split them? Well I think red power ranger kicks blue's arse so i'll give him the nod.

Okay, fair enough.

But what if Red Ranger is a Bantamweight and Blue Ranger is a Heavyweight.

I really don't like 'if they were the same size....' arguments. Do you?

[lufcrazy]

Okay, fair enough.

But what if Red Ranger is a Bantamweight and Blue Ranger is a Heavyweight.

I really don't like 'if they were the same size....' arguments. Do you?

I absolutely detest them arguments.

But this hypothetical is something i'm currently unsure of in a p4p ranking. I'm torn between comparing both ranger's h2h prowess within their natural division, or a simpler skill analysis based on available footage. I can still compare resume and achievement but comparing ability is more difficult.

[Flea Man]

Just go with what they did and when it's hard to rank one over another, go with what you like.

As McGrain put so well 'Boxing is music, not maths'.

For a maths teacher maybe a little bit harder to stomach :D

[Flea Man]

For example: Is it really fair ranking Walker over Moore or vice versa? No, but I ain't having joint 11th place, so I'll go Walker based on Welter to Heavy.

Just a hypothetical but as you're saying, when you get to the whittling down the brackets, there's really nothing between most of 'em.

[lufcrazy]

Just go with what they did and when it's hard to rank one over another, go with what you like.

As McGrain put so well 'Boxing is music, not maths'.

For a maths teacher maybe a little bit harder to stomach :D

Part of me died when he said that :-(

[Flea Man]

:lol: But it's true though, there's no formula, don't stress yourself over it.

If that's a way of you picking 'who you like' then fair enough, but if it's close I usually say 'what impresses me more' rather than 'what are the impressive things these two have done' if that makes any sense.

[lufcrazy]

:lol: But it's true though, there's no formula, don't stress yourself over it.

If that's a way of you picking 'who you like' then fair enough, but if it's close I usually say 'what impresses me more' rather than 'what are the impressive things these two have done' if that makes any sense.

There's always a formula out there :lol:

It's more that some guys whole legacies within a division are built upon being a "h2h monster" so I just like to recognise that accolade (i.e. Liston at hw, hearns at ww, jones at smw etc)

[Flea Man]

Hearns ranks highly based on his mental career! Welter to Light Heavy at the top level.

Liston ranks outside the top 10 Heavys for me, so gets nowhere on my top 100.

Jones gets somewhere in the top 100. But nowhere near the top 10 in any of the classic 8.

[lufcrazy]

Hearns ranks highly based on his mental career! Welter to Light Heavy at the top level.

Liston ranks outside the top 10 Heavys for me, so gets nowhere on my top 100.

Jones gets somewhere in the top 100. But nowhere near the top 10 in any of the classic 8.

Where do you rank hearns as a ww?

Liston is also outside my top ten despite being my number 2 h2h hw.

Jones is in my top ten lhw i'm almost 100% sure of it. I think he's my number 3 smw also.

I understand why people don't include any mythical h2h bonus, I just think it's fun to compile and is a valid criteria towards an encompassing criteria (eventually an encompassing formula :lol:)

[Flea Man]

I'd like to rank him higher, but 7-10 is fair IMO.

H2H: the best bar Robinson most probably (and Leonard, begrudgingly)

Only a select few that beat him there IMO.

What do you think of Muangsurins chin against Hearns? Past his best, out of his best weight against the most intimidating physical freak and devastating puncher in the divisions history, hit clean constantly....finished on his feet :-(

[lufcrazy]

I'd like to rank him higher, but 7-10 is fair IMO.

H2H: the best bar Robinson most probably (and Leonard, begrudgingly)

Only a select few that beat him there IMO.

What do you think of Muangsurins chin against Hearns? Past his best, out of his best weight against the most intimidating physical freak and devastating puncher in the divisions history, hit clean constantly....finished on his feet :-(

I think it's one of them times when a fighter just says "i'm not being knocked out" and hearns could have wailed on him for another 50 rounds and fatigue aside there's no way tommy stops him.

[Flea Man]

Well, he would've killed him.

His chin was insane, but the fights against Monroe Brooks and Sang-Hyun Kim had taken the edge off of his durability. He was still ridiculously tough though, possible already blind in one eye as well.

[lufcrazy]

Well, he would've killed him.

His chin was insane, but the fights against Monroe Brooks and Sang-Hyun Kim had taken the edge off of his durability. He was still ridiculously tough though, possible already blind in one eye as well.

And that is the sad irony with boxing, guys with great chins end up taking the worse punishment and suffer the most long term.

People who can get sparked every few fights like jason litzao will be fine in the long run.

[Flea Man]

And yet George Chuvalo is alright :lol: Great clip where he discredits his actual chin and said how he was underrated for rolling with shots and just had a well-built chest!

I've seen him take shit loads of punches regardless :lol: And he's alright really, madness. Remember Foreman teeing off on him?!?

[lufcrazy]

And yet George Chuvalo is alright :lol: Great clip where he discredits his actual chin and said how he was underrated for rolling with shots and just had a well-built chest!

I've seen him take shit loads of punches regardless :lol: And he's alright really, madness. Remember Foreman teeing off on him?!?

Yeah he had a diamond chin that man. I've not seen the bonavena fight but apparently he dropped him?

[TAC602]

...

[Webbiano]

Mike Tyson making that list is ridiculous.

Holyfield deserves to be above him and move Frazier up to 9

Also I'd rather see Tunney above Charles.

Other than that i can't really complain. Props for going through the process

[Foreman Hook]

Mike Tyson making that list is ridiculous.

Nope - Jack "The Manassa Myth" Dempsey making that list is fucking ridiculous. :deal:deal

[Webbiano]

Nope - Jack "The Manassa Myth" Dempsey making that list is fucking ridiculous. :deal:deal

I'm not that sold on Dempsey either. Who do you put instead of Dempsey and Tyson (if your taking him out)

[Foreman Hook]

I'm not that sold on Dempsey either. Who do you put instead of Dempsey and Tyson (if your taking him out)


1. GOAT Ali

2. Lion Lenny Lewis

3. Notorious B.I.G.G.G (Big. Invincible. Giant. G. George) Foreman

4. Joey "Bum of teh Month" Louis

5. Smokey Joe Frazier

6. WARRIOR Holyfield

7. Rocco "Italian Stallion" Marciano

8. "Jelly" Lazza "Habitual Ducker" Holmes

9. King Kenny Norton (for deserving 2 wins VS GOAT Ali, And a draw with Prime Holmes)

10. "Midget Lisp" Tinkerbell Tyson



Foreman Hoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooook!:smoke

[Webbiano]

1. GOAT Ali

2. Lion Lenny Lewis

3. Notorious B.I.G.G.G (Big. Invincible. Giant. G. George) Foreman

4. Joey "Bum of teh Month" Louis

5. Smokey Joe Frazier

6. WARRIOR Holyfield

7. Rocco "Italian Stallion" Marciano

8. "Jelly" Lazza "Habitual Ducker" Holmes

9. King Kenny Norton (for deserving 2 wins VS GOAT Ali, And a draw with Prime Holmes)

10. "Midget Lisp" Tinkerbell Tyson

Foreman Hoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooook!:smoke

very different to many I see on ESB. Different is good though :good

I feel Holmes is a little low, I'd swap Lewis with Louis, jack Johnson go in there and Marciano a bit higher IMO. I like your inclusion of Norton though, very underrated fighter

[Nightcrawler]

Yeah he had a diamond chin that man. I've not seen the bonavena fight but apparently he dropped him?

it's really more of a push but it came after a punch and it may have been that george was stunned enough for oscar's shove to take him down

[robert ungurean]

L. Lewis is so overrated here its not even funny anymore.