LIGHTWEIGHT TOURNAMENT FIRST ROUND, Pernell Whitaker vs Benny Leonard

[teeto]

15 rounds, 8 oz gloves

If you don't give a reason your answer won't be counted.

[Sweet Pea]

I'll go with Whitaker because, based on what I've seen of both on film (which is obviously much less of Leonard), he has him clearly beaten in just about every category. People should understand my H2H beliefs by now.

[mcvey]

15 rounds, 8 oz gloves

If you don't give a reason your answer won't be counted.
Leonard. I have a hard time seeing ANY lightweight beating him, not even Sweet Pea.Leonard beat the best collection of Lightweights ever assembled, ,he is more proven than any other at the weight imo. Leonard by dec

[teeto]

Whitaker for me, he could win some of the rounds in which they are participating in a chess match, but Leonard would as well, just by his maintaining distance. Whitaker lets his workrate go beserk later in the fight to get my scorecard.

[la-califa]

Tough call. both waiting for the counterpunch. Leonard takes a slight lead. Into the late round Whitaker comes on,knowing he is slightly behind and starts to connect. Leonard doesn't want the momentum to shift as they exchange hard shots in the final rounds. The Decision is a 15 Round=Draw!! (Sorry Teet)!

[teeto]

Tough call. both waiting for the counterpunch. Leonard takes a slight lead. Into the late round Whitaker comes on,knowing he is slightly behind and starts to connect. Leonard doesn't want the momentum to shift as they exchange hard shots in the final rounds. The Decision is a 15 Round=Draw!! (Sorry Teet)!
Don't apologise La-Califa.

Just fuckin man up and change it to someone coming out on top.

Haha, kidding, a draw is fine, i know you meant it sincere!

[la-califa]

Don't apologise La-Califa.

Just fuckin man up and change it to someone coming out on top.

Haha, kidding, a draw is fine, i know you meant it sincere!Well if I have to say... A stern Referee could deduct one point from Whitaker for Clowning at some point in the fight...:roll:

[teeto]

Well if I have to say... A stern Referee could deduct one point from Whitaker for Clowning at some point in the fight...:roll:
Haha, real man, you manned up!

[la-califa]

Haha, real man, you manned up! Ha,ha. Hey, check out my list on Jrl Lightweight Tourney. see if I missed anyone(welcome to suggestions). What you think about Armstrong, Canzoneri & Ross as participants? There was no Jr. Lightweight division then. Anyway I'll get it together after yours concludes... No need flooding the market!

[teeto]

Ha,ha. Hey, check out my list on Jrl Lightweight Tourney. see if I missed anyone(welcome to suggestions). What you think about Armstrong, Canzoneri & Ross as participants? There was no Jr. Lightweight division then. Anyway I'll get it together after yours concludes... No need flooding the market!
Well we should be able to fit them all right in there, it could be a very good weight clas for Armstrong and Canzoneri, we can consider them as prime i reckon

[la-califa]

Well we should be able to fit them all right in there, it could be a very good weight clas for Armstrong and Canzoneri, we can consider them as prime i reckon
Good deal. I got a pretty good list thus far. & have left it open for suggestions before I close it out at 32.

[teeto]

Good deal. I got a pretty good list thus far. & have left it open for suggestions before I close it out at 32.
Well Sweet Pea's made a helluva list, i'll see who i think fits the bill for you, just an opinion

[redrooster]

the caliber of opposition leonard faced was the best you could ever ask for. Stiff. Fiercely competitive.

Can you say the same about the late 80s? :oops:

leonard came passed every test in front of him with flying colors. Even when he was out on his feet he managed to throw off the other guy and eventually put his lights out.

I can't imagine someone like Pernell ever getting the best of him. In my opinion it's Leonard who would dictate and even rough up Pernell. Benny is one of the super elite that made my top ten. Pernel doesnt even come close

[the cobra]

I agree with Sweet Pea. I don't think there is anything in the Tendler footage that suggests Leonard could have gotten the better of Whitaker.

[sweet_scientist]

If I remember correctly, last time we had a lightweight tournament Whitaker faced off with Benny Leonard first round and got eliminated.

As to this fight, I'm not sure. Haven't seen enough from Leonard to really say. He does seem to have the type of style that would bother Whitaker, good leg movement, nice jab and right hand, great smarts and defense, but is it enough to beat Whitaker? Not sure.

[sweet_scientist]

the caliber of opposition leonard faced was the best you could ever ask for. Stiff. Fiercely competitive.

Can you say the same about the late 80s? :oops:

leonard came passed every test in front of him with flying colors. Even when he was out on his feet he managed to throw off the other guy and eventually put his lights out.

I can't imagine someone like Pernell ever getting the best of him. In my opinion it's Leonard who would dictate and even rough up Pernell. Benny is one of the super elite that made my top ten. Pernel doesnt even come close


Leonard has the better lightweight resume for sure, but that's not really at issue in a head-to-head tournament (especially when he didn't face anyone on Whitaker's level at lightweight, and the best boxer type that he did face there, probably Freddie Welsh, gave him quite a bit of trouble. Also was getting outboxed by Jack Britton, though that was a welterweight bout, and again, not all that relevant). What do you think Leonard would do to Whitaker to beat him?

[Mr Butt]

as fast as whitaker was i think leonard woud win by out thinking whitaker he would fient a lot and counter leonard had a great habit of finding a way to win ,but no one can be sure in these sort of match ups but i would pick leonard
but not with any great confidence next week i may pick whitaker

[mcvey]

Leonard has the better lightweight resume for sure, but that's not really at issue in a head-to-head tournament (especially when he didn't face anyone on Whitaker's level at lightweight, and the best boxer type that he did face there, probably Freddie Welsh, gave him quite a bit of trouble. Also was getting outboxed by Jack Britton, though that was a welterweight bout, and again, not all that relevant). What do you think Leonard would do to Whitaker to beat him?
I wouldn't read too much into the last Leonard/ Britton fight,I think it was a fix,and served as the basis for HEMINGWAY'S nove l" Fifty Grand".

Leonard had beaten Britton twice before, and also drawn with Ted Kid Lewis, who was a welter at the time.

[Flea Man]

From what I've seen of Benny, Pea would beat him to the punch and totally outland him.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt; Pea wins a decision.

[sweet_scientist]

I wouldn't read too much into the last Leonard/ Britton fight,I think it was a fix,and served as the basis for HEMINGWAY'S nove l" Fifty Grand".

Wasn't 'Fifty Grand' based on the Britton-Walker fight?

I've never heard anything before about the last Britton-Leonard fight being a fix....I could be wrong though...



Leonard had beaten Britton twice before, and also drawn with Ted Kid Lewis, who was a welter at the time.

About Leonard's previous bouts with Britton, fair enough, but we should note that one was a 6 rounder, the other a ten rounder, and both times Britton dropped down to 140, whereas most of his other bouts around the time were welterweight affairs, so the drop in weight might have adversely effected him.

[PowerPuncher]

From what I've seen of Leonard, Whitaker looks the far more talented fighter, jab, speed, footwork, defensively, crazy reactions, punch technique, he has Leonard beat on all those. Leonard himself is a master boxer, Whitaker too though and is a freak of nature to boot. Whitaker UD say 10-5 because Leonard will keep it competitive but won't have enough

[mcvey]

Wasn't 'Fifty Grand' based on the Britton-Walker fight?

I've never heard anything before about the last Britton-Leonard fight being a fix....I could be wrong though...





About Leonard's previous bouts with Britton, fair enough, but we should note that one was a 6 rounder, the other a ten rounder, and both times Britton dropped down to 140, whereas most of his other bouts around the time were welterweight affairs, so the drop in weight might have adversely effected him.

The story goes that Leonard knocked Britton down,then hit him while he was on the floor losing the bout by a foul.Lewis was at welterweight when Leonard fought him,he also beat other good welters.
ps Box rec has some ideas on the Leonard Britton fight.

[sweet_scientist]

The story goes that Leonard knocked Britton down,then hit him while he was on the floor losing the bout by a foul.Lewis was at welterweight when Leonard fought him,he also beat other good welters.
ps Box rec has some ideas on the Leonard Britton fight.

I'd heard about the conclusion of the fight, but I had never heard about if possibly being a fix though... interesting. As of now, I'm inclined to go with the thoughts on boxrec though, and take the fight on face value.

[ripcity]

I would like to know how the random selection for this tournament works with the best two meeting in the first round? The Winner should win this tournmaent
Benny Leonard and Pernell Whitaker are pretty much mirror images of each other. They are about the same size. Whitaker is a southpaw while Leonard fights in the orthodox stance. Both are highly skilled boxers, and each has knockout power. With out much film of Leonard avaible for us to watch I think reading about Leonard gives us a more acurate picture of his abillities. The film most of have sean of Leonard is from one of his bouts against Lew Tendler. Who like Whitaker was a southpaw. While Tendler may not be as good as Whitaker he was very good. if you are going to trust the written reports on Hary Greb than you should also trust them on Benny Leonard.
Perhaps Leonard's greatest skill was his ability to impose his will. Both boxers would perfer to fight off the back foot and counter. Leonard would have Whitaker coming to him. Don't underestamate Whitaker he has a high work rate and even though he will be out of his comfort zone. His work rate will score him points. Coming forward may also impress the judges.
Leonard will score with countering shots and sliping away from Whitaker. The judges will give points to Leonard for his counter punches and his slight advantage in ring generalship.
The difrence in the fight will come in the last rounds. By than Leonard will be landing more than Whitaker.
This can go either way but most of the time Leonard wins 8-10 rounds. There would be no knockdowns.
My pick: Benny Leonard by decision over Pernell Whitaker in a compitive fight that would be more enteraining than most would expect.
This should be the tournmaent final.

[GPater11093]

I think Pernell would take it.

If they both look for the counter Pernells the quicker fighter and 90% of times if boxers fight a similar fight the faster guy wins.