Better Chin: Dempsey or Marciano ?

[he grant]

Based on record, level of opposition, ect ... your thoughts and why ...

[McGrain]

So hard to say...i have a feeling it might come back to how you feel about a certain first round knock out...Dempsey showed astonishing punch resistance against Firpo, who could hit. Marciano was never really hit that hard, I don't think, but then he was never really hurt that much either. Very difficult shout, i'd be cautios of coming down firmly on either side.

[Mendoza]

Based on record, level of opposition, ect ... your thoughts and why ...

Hard to say who had the better chin. I always say, chins are best tested when they are hit by big punchers who scored clean power shots.

Dempsey fought better punchers, so his chin is more proven than Marciano's. Normally more proven is better, but Marciano went down far less than Dempsey did. The choice is not easy.

I would lean toward Dempsey simply because he proved he could take a clean shot from a power hitter in Fripo.

[he grant]

Who was the biggest punchers Marciano fought? Walcott and Moore ?

[TheGreatA]

Not sure if I'm too impressed with Dempsey's punch resistance against Firpo. Most of the time Firpo landed anything big, Dempsey was hurt.

He did show a granite chin against Sharkey though, who was an underrated puncher.

Carpentier stunned him with a right hand and a couple of uppercuts but Dempsey recovered well.

Marciano's chin:

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2:25

[Russell]

Neither was invulnerable. Both had awesome willpower and recovery power though.

[fists of fury]

Very difficult shout, i'd be cautios of coming down firmly on either side.

Agreed...depends on whether one places stock in the Fulton KO being legitimate or not. I'm on the fence here.

[The Wanderer]

I'd probably be slightly on Marciano's side, because Dempsey often seemed more hurt than I can ever recall Marciano being when hurt/knocked down.

Not a certainty, but that's the way I'd lean.

[Mendoza]

Who was the biggest punchers Marciano fought? Walcott and Moore ?

Yes, and both floored him. Walcott had Marciano in some real trouble in round 11 of their first fight.

Rocky had a good chin, but his stamina and heart were even better.

[he grant]

Rocky never fought a huge heavyweight hitter like a Liston, Forman, Lewis, Tyson or Shavers. We know his chin is damn good based on the level he fought. We don't know if it is Holmes-like, Ali-like or Chuvalo-like ... we do know he did get hit ...

[Maxmomer]

Dempsey got knocked out cold by Fireman Jim Flynn. Fireman Jim fucking Flynn. Flynn was a journeyman even in his prime, he was in his late 30's when he KO'd Dempsey and Dempsey was only a year away from his prime. That's a terrible knock on his chin unless some more evidence shows up supporting the dive theory.

[janitor]

I would tentativley say Marciano despite the fact that Dempsey fought more punchers.

Both these fighters have excelent chins but I think that Dempseys chin gets oversold somtimes because:

A. His defence was such that he rarely got hit flush.

B. His recuperative powers were such that he often seemed in control of a fight when he was hurt.

That is not necisarily to say that Dempsey was easier to stop but if you ask me who had the better pure cinder block hanging under his skull I suspect that Marciano did.

Just my best speculation.

[ChrisPontius]

He did show a granite chin against Sharkey though, who was an underrated puncher.


Yeah, he showed an amazing chin against an underrated puncher with a whopping 25% KO percentage.:nut

[Dempsey1238]

And Sharkey did have Dempsey hurt in round 1, and staggering around.

[TheGreatA]

Yeah, he showed an amazing chin against an underrated puncher with a whopping 25% KO percentage.:nut

Exactly why I said he was underrated.

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[djanders]

I would guess that Marciano's whiskers were slightly better, but not by much. I am in no way certain of that, though.

[OLD FOGEY]

I would argue that people might be overrating Firpo as a puncher. For a man with supposedly explosive power, he certainly went a lot of rounds with almost all his top opponents. He took him 12 to get a fading Bill Brennan. Homer Smith managed ten rounds despite a slew of knockdowns. Erminio Spalla lasted to the 14th in the first fight and the 12 round distance in the second. Wills and Weinert beat him over the full 12 in 1924. On the other side was the 2nd round stoppage of Weinert, Firpo's only real display of early stopping power against even a journeyman level opponent, and the 8th round stoppage of the 41 year old Willard. Impressive? Somewhat, but I would question rating him above say Walcott, Charles, or Moore for sheer punching power. I don't think he showed enough for that. Weinert was stopped 8 times, all before the 4th round. Blowing him out early was not that difficult.

[ChrisPontius]

I think the key difference here is the number of punchers both fought, and the ability those opponents had to bring that punch home. For Dempsey, the four hardest hitters are probably Willard, Firpo and Fulton/Morris. The Morris fights are not on film, but his record does not indicate that he was anything special skill-wise, considering he had a significant size advantage over all his opponents. Willard and Fulton never got to connect with a good punch because they were blown out. That leaves only Firpo who landed on Dempsey, and he had Jack down three times.

As for Marciano, his four best punchers faced are probably Moore, Walcott, Layne and Louis. Moore, Walcott and Louis were highly skilled and managed to land their best shots. Marciano was down twice, hurt by Walcott and a flash knockdown against Moore, but never in serious trouble like Dempsey was against Firpo. Then that leaves Layne, who is somewhat like Firpo except more skilled, and he never made much of an impact on Marciano.

[he grant]

Strike Louis out of this one Chris. He was far more faded than Walcott or Charles. To say Marciano took Louis' power is like saying Holmes beat a prime Ali. Throw in Willard, a huge puncher and Gunboat Smith as well as power hitters Dempsey fought ...

As for Rocky, Charles was no hitter at heavyweight. Walcott could swat but was a terrible closer. Layne was a decent puncher, nothing more.

[OLD FOGEY]

Strike Louis out of this one Chris. He was far more faded than Walcott or Charles. To say Marciano took Louis' power is like saying Holmes beat a prime Ali. Throw in Willard, a huge puncher and Gunboat Smith as well as power hitters Dempsey fought ...

As for Rocky, Charles was no hitter at heavyweight. Walcott could swat but was a terrible closer. Layne was a decent puncher, nothing more.

Louis had scored an impressive ko of top contender Lee Savold only a few months before fighting Marciano. When was the last time Gunboat Smith scored an impressive ko over a top man before he fought Dempsey? Or Willard?

Your comment on Louis is well taken. Remember, however, that if the Joe Louis that Marciano survived was a prime Joe Louis this would not even be an issue. Marciano would then be far, far ahead of Dempsey as far as having a proven chin. Yes Louis was past his best. It does not follow he could not punch at all. The Savold fight proves that to not be true.

[SuzieQ49]

Who was the biggest punchers Marciano fought? Walcott and Moore ?

6'2 214lb Joe Louis. Power is the last thing to go. He may have lost his finishing combination ability, but for pure ONE PUNCH power louis still had alot of force behind his one punches(especially heavy left hook) and it showed if you watch his filmed fights vs Valentino and Savold. Charles and Marciano's faces were both busted up horrible by louis. a 6'2 215lb can do alot of damage on a 185lb man if he hits flush...Marciano took some hellacious left hook shots of louis in round 1.

Also Rex Layne..a very hard right hand hitter. Layne was 34-1 with 25 kayos...he was basically a more skilled version of Firpo. Laynes right hand did not make marciano blink all night. ESB's John Garfield described Rex Layne as having a "very heavy right hand"

Also archie Moore...rated # 4 on Ring Magazines all time punchers list. is 22-1 with 19 kayos over men above 200lb

Also Jersey Joe Walcott rated # 66 on Ring Magazines all time punchers list. Holds perhaps the single most impressive one punch kayo of all time..hit marciano with a carbon copy punch in the next fight. Marciano took it and got right back up.

To compare a 1951 Joe Louis to the version of ali that fought holmes is ridiculous. Louis proved in 1950 he was still a highly dangerous # 1 rated heavyweight contender capable of beating any of the top 10 heavyweights in the world. Ali in 1980 proved he was not capable of beating a top 20 heavyweight in the world and he certainly was not a top 10 contender worthy.

[SuzieQ49]

I would lean toward Dempsey simply because he proved he could take a clean shot from a power hitter in Fripo.


1. Whos to say Firpo hit harder than Louis, Walcott, Moore, Layne?

2. How did dempsey prove he could take a clean shot by firpo? by getting knocked down THREE times, once out of the ring, and needed to be saved by a typewriter? thats not the mark of a chin to me. Everytime firpo hit dempsey, dempsey went down..and he was beneficial the typewriter helped push him back in the ring.



I think jack had certain clear advantages over rocky, but when it comes to chin I think rocky clearly takes it

[SuzieQ49]

Here are the 4 biggest punchers Marciano fought displaying there one punch power...POWER IS THE LAST THING TO LEAVE A FIGHTER!


Joe Louis 6'2 214lb # 1 on Ring Magazine all time punchers list
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watch 10:30-10:45


Archie Moore- # 4 on Ring Magazines all time punchers list
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Watch 7:35-7:45 Moore outweighed by 35lb!!!



Jersey Joe Walcott- Rated # 63 on Ring Magazines all time punchers list
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Watch 9:47-10:00 Who the hell is capable of taking this kind of shot? O wait....Marciano!



Rex Layne- 22 years old 34-1 with 25 knockouts
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Watch 1:25-1:40 Laynes powerful right hand at its best

[TheGreatA]

I agree that Walcott and Moore were still good punchers, Layne and Charles too could knock out heavyweights.

Louis however, while still a capable puncher, had seemingly lost most of his power, even according to Marciano. The left jab still "hit like a hammer" according to him but the right hand was almost useless.

"What surprised me," Marciano noted after the fight, "was that Joe didn't have much of a right. They told me he had lost some of his power, but I didn't expect nothing. That's what his right hand was-nothing."

Firpo was evidently strong and powerful but he was as unskilled as they come. Dempsey didn't take his punches too well I thought.

Willard could punch but he was getting older and was never given a chance to land anything of substance.

[he grant]

This is where Marciano guys are fanatical. Rocky's own words were that Louis had nothing on his punches. That he was amazed by Louis' lack of power. These were Rocky's own words and SQ is trying to build a case that Louis was hitting near prime. It's a joke.

[PowerPuncher]

Marciano by a decent margin imo, Dempsey's comp wasnt nearly as good as Marcianos was out on his feet against Firpo, hurt by Tunney and knocked out in 1 by Flynn. Walcott/Louis/Charles/Louis were all very accurate and devastating punchers who landed plenty of shots. Layne was also a puncher

[Ted Spoon]

There is being 'shaken' and then there is being 'moved'. Dempsey was easier to 'move' due to his lankier build which was less compact and he was on his toes more.

Then there is the resilience factor. As close as Dempsey appeared to be on his way out against Firpo Ted Spoon would bet that he was in fact closer to being sober. Some fighters are built to rile back when buzzed, incredibly difficult to bury.

Marciano was a sturdier built fellow, foundation wise, not material, and this is where the definition of 'chin' is hazy; as explained there is 'moved' and then there is 'buzzed'. There is knocked to the floor and rocked to the core.

[he grant]

I might lean to Rocky. There is no film of the Lowry fight where he was supposedly badly hurt but he took bombs from Walcott after he went down and came back like a tank. Walcott could definately hit. Not one shot like a Shavers but much faster and two handed. I'm not saying he was Chuvalo but one step below max ....

Dempsey was rocked a hell of a lot for a guy everyone swears has a great chin ... post Willard he has rocked by Brennan, Carpentier, Firpo, Sharkey and Tunney. He was KO'ed by Flynn who could hit. By his own admittance he was dropped many other times on his way up ... the key to him was he did not stay down ...

[Boilermaker]

I really dont see how anyone can hold against Marciano on this point. He was never really even hurt. The only knockdowns he suffered were just flash knockdowns that mean virtually nothing. I think Marciano has a far better chin. But even if he doesnt, surely the correct answer would have to be that we dont know, because it was never broken! Most assumed the young Cassius Clay had a weak chin (Joe louis included and this would have been his undoing in a fantasy fight) but i think it is fair to say that most were wrong. If the chin was never broken and he did fight plenty of World class fighters, i think it is ridiculous to say with any certainty that someone could have a better chin.

[DemolitionDan]

I would go with Marciano without a doubt. Rocky never really was hurt, and Dempsey staggered around and was hurt more so than Marciano. i would go with Marciano, but Dempsey had a great chin himself.

[SuzieQ49]

I agree that Walcott and Moore were still good punchers, Layne and Charles too could knock out heavyweights.

Louis however, while still a capable puncher, had seemingly lost most of his power, even according to Marciano. The left jab still "hit like a hammer" according to him but the right hand was almost useless.

"What surprised me," Marciano noted after the fight, "was that Joe didn't have much of a right. They told me he had lost some of his power, but I didn't expect nothing. That's what his right hand was-nothing."


Look no one is claiming Louis hit like he did in his prime...but compared to the average heavyweight in 1950...I would claim Louis still hit very hard, if not one of the hardest in the world. would you not agree? I challenge you to name me 5 heavyweights in the world in 1951 who hit harder than a 6'2 214lb Joe Louis?


Youi talk about his right hand, but what about his left hook? His left hook was still extremley powerful. Louis hit marciano at the end of round 1 flush with a left hook and rocky winced, then took it very well. Also, if you watch the Pat Valentino fight, I would hardly call Louis has having nothing left in his right. Sure it had lost alot of sharpness and timing, but when it landed it did damage(Agramonte II round II fight check it out). What about Louis flattening a Younger Savold with 1 punch, while rocky could not floor a out of shape ruined savold despite hitting him flush all night?


"One thing Louis still had was his punch. He could still hit very hard. His skills and reflexes were no longer there, but his punch was." - Jimmy Bivins Ring May 1951

[SuzieQ49]

These were Rocky's own words and SQ is trying to build a case that Louis was hitting near prime.

I challenge you HE to find one quote in my lifetime here where I ever said Louis hit anywhere near his prime in 1951. I have not. I am a big joe louis fan, as much as I am a rocky marciano. I realize Louis was far past his prime by 1951, but unlike you I am also smart enough to realize Louis STILL at 37 was a dangerous top fighter and despite losing most of his punching skills, he still had some pop left, had a great left jab, solid technical skills, solid size, and loads of ring experience making him a difficult opponent for a young top contender. Even a old depleted Louis is still better than most heavies.


Look at Liston of the late 1960s, Foreman of the 1990s, Louis of 1950s, Lennox of 2003....All were well past there prime...but dont sit here and tell me these guys still could not hit hard, and could not fight world class anymore.


Looks like the joke is on you...Now I am waiting for you to find me a quote where I said Louis in 1950 hit like he was in his prime...I am waiting ............

[SuzieQ49]

"One thing Louis still had was his punch. He could still hit very hard. His skills and reflexes were no longer there, but his punch was." - Jimmy Bivins claimed Ring May 1951 after his fight with Louis



This is for HEgrant. Though Louis was far past his prime and had lost alot of his power/skills...he still had enough power/skill left that made him a formidable world class fighter.

I challenge you to name me 5 heavyweights in the world in 1951 who hit harder than Joe Louis? Please...If you cannot name them...then you have no choice but to have to make the claim marciano fought one of the hardest hitters in the world in Joe Louis who also happened to be 6'2 214lb(Same size as Luis Firpo).

[TheGreatA]

What about his left hook? His left hook was still extremley powerful. Also, if you watch the Pat Valentino fight, I would hardly call Louis has having nothing left in his right.


"One thing Louis still had was his punch. He could still hit very hard. His skills and reflexes were no longer there, but his punch was." - Jimmy Bivins Ring May 1951

Marciano did say that Louis' left "hit like a hammer" but that his right felt like nothing. Watching the fight, it's quite evident that Louis' right was in fact "nothing", he just couldn't fire it off and when he did, it brought him no results.

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Look at the sorry excuse of a right hand at 7:03 for example.

Hardly comparable to:

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7:40

Not that Louis still couldn't punch, but saying that Rocky walked through Louis' best punches would be a bit misleading because he didn't truly feel the punching power of a prime Louis.

[SuzieQ49]

Not that Louis still couldn't punch, but saying that Rocky walked through Louis' best punches would be a bit misleading because he didn't truly feel the punching power of a prime Louis.
__________________

Your right...but at the same time Rocky did prove he could take punches off a world class 6'2 214lb fighter....Now he did not take punches off a prime louis, but he did take a couple hellacious left hooks off a man who outweighed him by a good 30 pounds and entered the fight a 6 to 5 favorite. Does taking punches off a late 1960s Sonny Liston or a 1990s george foreman mean anything? if you answer yes, then taking punches off a 1950s Louis should mean something too. Foreman and Liston made a living in there older years knocking the crap out of unrated journeyman...while Louis was at least tangling with durable respectable fringe contenders/ top 10 rated men....the one journeyman level fighter louis did fight(Californian champ 6'3 andy walker he knocked out).....Had Louis padded his record with journeyman from 1950-1951 and scored 8 consecutive knockouts, perhaps you would have a diff view on his power.



Also, why are you bringing up a video of Louis in 1951 and comparing it with Louis in his prime. Once again, NO ONE HERE is claimg louis hit anything near his prime....All were saying is that compared to your average heavyweight contender in 1951...he was bigger and powerful than most...even at 37. Why not bring up a foreman video in 1990s to prove he didnt hit anything near like he did in 1970s? Even a 37 year old Louis could have easily knocked out all those tomato cans foreman did in the late 80s-early 90s

[he grant]

SQ: You are claiming Joe Louis was one of the biggest punchers Rocky ever fought ... what more is there to say .. I say in name only, not at the time they fought. So Holyfield must have the greatest chin ever becuase he went the distance at 46 ithe Valuev ? The Louis that Marciano defeated did not hit as hard as a prime Larry Holmes, no way. That's you test ?

[OLD FOGEY]

SQ: You are claiming Joe Louis was one of the biggest punchers Rocky ever fought ... what more is there to say .. I say in name only, not at the time they fought. So Holyfield must have the greatest chin ever becuase he went the distance at 46 ithe Valuev ? The Louis that Marciano defeated did not hit as hard as a prime Larry Holmes, no way. That's you test ?

The issue I would bring up in the context of this thread is how does the Louis of 1951 rate against Dempsey's opponents? Willard was even older, and had not fought in three years. He would come back in 1923 and manage to stop the mediocre Floyd Johnson in 11. Okay, but there are posts on this thread naming Willard as a powerful punching test for Dempsey. What is the evidence Willard could punch harder in 1919 than Louis could in 1951?

[SuzieQ49]

Great post Old Fogey. I would love to see HeGrants reply. Willard was 37 years old coming off a THREE year layoff when he fought dempsey.


say in name only, not at the time they fought. So Holyfield must have the greatest chin ever becuase he went the distance at 46 ithe Valuev ? The Louis that Marciano defeated did not hit as hard as a prime Larry Holmes, no way. That's you test


So the Foreman of the 1990s and Liston of the late 1960s or Tyson of 2000s did not hit as hard as larry holmes either since they were in there late 30s-early 40s and clearly downhill? What are you argueing age? Once again, I challenge you to name 5 heavyweights in the world in 1951 who hit harder than Joe Louis? Please name them.


I dont think anyone on this forum would agree with you larry holmes hit harder than any version of Joe Louis. Louis was a puncher whether it was 1935, 1942, or 1950...he was always a puncher. Larry never was. Larry could never knock durable top contenders out with 1 solid shot the way louis did to men from throughout his career including well past his prime in the 1950s


Also comparing a 46 year old holyfield to a 37 year old Louis is despicable. I think a 1999 37 year old holyfield who defeated moorer and lost to lennox lewis is a much closer resemblence to a 37 year old louis who defeated walcott but lost to charles and marciano.


I say in name only, not at the time they fought

IF thats the case, then who of Marcianos opponents hit harder than Joe Louis? Walcott didnt since he got knocked out by louis a couple years earlier...charles and moore both spotted louis 35lb in weight so I doubt they hit harder, Layne was knocked out by louis in a exhibition and rex himself said that Joe Louis hit harder than marciano, and layne fought a 1950s version of Louis. So who does that leave? Joe Louis, once the greatest puncher of all time....even a depleted 37 year old version of that shell is still a mighty puncher!

[SuzieQ49]

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Watch 3:25

GreatA, now Louis was nowhere near a puncher he was in his prime, but he still could hit. Raw Power is the LAST thing to leave a fighter...Louis still proved he had a formidable left hook. Watch Louis land that crunching left hook on the right side of Marcianos jaw...it freezes rocoo in his tracks. However, Marciano takes it very well and retaliates very well in the flurry while still seemingly buzzed....I mean Louis socked him good there. Thats a punch from a 214lb man. That is going to hurt on a 184lb fighter.

[he grant]

Fogey: Off point here. This is about SQ using Louis of 51 to argue for Marciano's chin strength ...

SQ, simple question: Why do you often use the 1951 version of Louis that fought Marciano as a top credit for the strength of his chin? This has nothing to do with Dempsey. This is purely your using that Louis as a substancial credit argument for Rocky when he said Louis had nothing on his right. You constantly argue the tired clique that power is the last thing to leave a fighter and besides not always being the case, it had clearly left Louis.

[PetethePrince]

Marciano in this one quite clearly to me.

I'll give Dempsey a slight edge in defense. He avoided shots better and was more elusive in avoiding them. Marciano was built like a rock and took punishment well. Dempsey did too, but the record indicates he was hurt more and he could be hurt more. Dempsey was resilient and fought well hurt but Marciano had the better chin.

As for Marciano. I seriously think his chin gets underrated because people cling to the pre 200 pound mark as for fighters. Walcott's one punch power is seriously underrated here... unless of course people think Louis' had a weak chin. I would dare to say that Walcott hit Marciano with a punch harder than Dempsey has. Of course I haven't seen Dempsey on film too much. The Williard fight is complete domination, and the Firpo fight is a mess with Dempsey getting pushed/punched through the ropes and there's no second knockdown in the American version. The Flynn were Dempsey was knocked out cold is also not on film. I don't buy revisionist history about not eating for 4 days, but who knows back then.

Louis was still a very capable puncher. Louis was catching Marciano with a quick short left hooks that Marciano just bulled through. Marciano really a terrific chin and I think he gets underrated for the Louis fight in terms of his chin. Louis seems to be the only fighter in his 30's where his power automatically "disappears" because he does connect. Either that or his power is overrated... he was still the greatest puncher of all time and I recognize the speed and reflexes not being all there but this is still Joe Louis at 214 pounds. Walcott holds Marciano's head and tees off on him after the knockdown and puts some punishment on him in round 11 and 12. Don Durphy who called the fight that Marciano took such a battering he wouldn't come out for the 13th round.

Interesting enough, Marciano said to Lou Duva that the Moore punch was the "Hardest right hand he ever got hit with." It might have hurt Rocky more than any other punch. For a couple of reasons I think. Marciano being off-balance and Moore catching him when not looking. Moore is an ATG puncher too. But granted, he was a small heavyweight. Moore still KO plenty of 200+ heavyweights and has the all time record for most KO's.

Dempsey got up to fight against Firpo hurt many times. But wasn't it Dempsey that was dropped from the weak-punching Tunney when he was on his back-foot? I've heard this before, I have both fights in highlights and don't recall that though. If true, that says how their chins are really worlds apart.

He grant, are you schizophrenic or something?

[he grant]

I'm not the one going around calling himself prince. What's next, a symbol ?

Sire (LOL), how many KO's did Louis have in his comeback? How many knockdowns did he score? Compare it with the balance of his career and Marciano saying that Louis had nothing ... still on the argument ? Marciano saying Moore being the hardest puncher he ever fought is not a great argument either ..

To me Rocky had a hell of a chin against the B plus caliber punchers he fought ... would he have survived Liston, Foreman, Tyson or Lewis type power ? No one knows for sure.

[Bummy Davis]

Marciano fought the harder cleaner punchers. Walcott had great one punch power in either hand but also was a slick fighter who had pin point power. The hook vs Charles was one of the best KO's I have seen. Moore KO'd Bob Baker and he also KO'd opponents that Prime Sonny Liston could not stop . Louis was old but still had power and Layne was a puncher. I know Vingo's record does not indicate he was a finisher and they both were green but I heard that Vingo had solid one punch power. Charles had one of the best right hand left hook combo's I have seen.

[PetethePrince]

I'm not the one going around calling himself prince. What's next, a symbol ?

When do I go around calling myself prince? What a lame ass retort. The name is kind of a joke thing.

Sire (LOL), how many KO's did Louis have in his comeback? How many knockdowns did he score? Compare it with the balance of his career and Marciano saying that Louis had nothing ... still on the argument ? Marciano saying Moore being the hardest puncher he ever fought is not a great argument either ..

I don't need to mention the Louis fight because there are far more records I can point out. Moore being the hardest puncher Marciano ever fought? Learn to read man...

To me Rocky had a hell of a chin against the B plus caliber punchers he fought ... would he have survived Liston, Foreman, Tyson or Lewis type power ? No one knows for sure.

You can say that for tons of fighters. Dempsey too. I think he survives Liston (And likely can beat him), gets KO by Foreman and Tyson (Although mostly from the speed). I think Lewis can but probably would try out-pointing him being the somewhat smart/cautious fighter he was.

Name me 10 Heavyweight fighters with provenly better chins?

Seriously, Ali got knocked down by Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper. Walcott hit way harder than Cooper and Marciano got up quicker and was clearly less hurt. Do you hold these knockdowns against Ali? Marciano's chin is arguably on/close to that level.

[BoppaZoo]

Who remembers seeing pics of Rocky's nose split in half. Needs the KO goes out there and gets it.

Tough SOB. That nose. How does a person keep fighting with a nose like that.

[he grant]

Bummy , I agree that Walcott was a very large test for Rocky's chin for the reasons you stated. However, he was an old fighter and a career long poor finisher. Moore was a great puncher at light heavy and good at heavy but you tell me you actually are making a case that he hit anywhere nearly as hard as Liston are you ?

Boppa: Great post. It is often overlooked as one of the great clutch stopages ...

Prince you are very thin skinned. In your book it's fine to call someone a schizo but if they tag you back you whine ... if you want to play with the grown ups, temper your posts. This is the last time I am going to respond to you otherwise.

[TheGreatA]

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[he grant]

Pretty freakish looking gash .. it's almost forgotten today but that cut and the concern of how it would heal were big issues in the Marciano camp ... they were concerned it would be a liability in the future .... again, his stoppage of Charles was huge with that thing gushing like it was ..

[Bummy Davis]

Shows you what I love about Marciano, how many guys today could come back from that freak injury cause by an elbow

[he grant]

The guy was a total warrior. People forget but that fight could have been stopped. They didn't know if a piece of his nose was gonna be knocked into the seats. Everyone talks about LaMotta's famous comeback but Rocky's against Ezzard was amazing ...

The first round against Walcott proves to me he was the real goods. Walcott was totally fresh. He drops him with a hell of a shot. He comes in throwing his best, lightning fast and Marciano does not fold. By the end of the round he is fighting back strong.

I don't rank him all time with guys forty pounds heavier but pound for pound he was exceptional.

[Dempsey1238]

The issue I would bring up in the context of this thread is how does the Louis of 1951 rate against Dempsey's opponents? Willard was even older, and had not fought in three years. He would come back in 1923 and manage to stop the mediocre Floyd Johnson in 11. Okay, but there are posts on this thread naming Willard as a powerful punching test for Dempsey. What is the evidence Willard could punch harder in 1919 than Louis could in 1951?


I hardly recall Willard landed anythong of meaning on Dempsey.

I dont think this fight is a chin tester, in the same mode as say Harry Kid Matthews or Walcott II was a chin tester for Marciano.

I relly find it hard how people can judge Dempsey's chin off this one sided beatdown.
Willard was hardly thowing, but he was doing a LOT of catching.
This fight proves Willard's chin more than Dempsey lol.

I think for chin testers for Dempsey, and since only like 7 fights made it, I think perhaps the Sharkey fight is the best test of chin for Dempsey. Or perhaps Tunney. Not sure on my judge on Firpo because it was pretty short.

Walcott hit Marciano more times and with MORE jagged shots in the Marciano 1 fight than Dempsey did vs Willard, Firpo and perhap Carp combin.

I see very few fighters getting out of round 11 of Marciano Walcott 1. In the shape Marciano was in. I think round 11 is Rocky's showing of chin, Walcott was just beating and staggering Marciano, and Rocky would not go down.

[SuzieQ49]

Listen HE...I am one of the biggest joe louis fans you will ever meet. I don't need to say that either. In fact, I dont think anyone in history of boxing beats joe louis in a h2h matchup.

Here is my case about Joe Louis



1. When you are ONCE the greatest puncher of all time....Even far past your prime, you are still a dangerous puncher. People try to compare a 1950s louis with a prime louis and thats the wrong way of doing it. Instead compare a 1951 joe louis with how he stacked up with the rest of the world. you will find he indeed was still a top 5 hitter in the world in 1951 and one of the biggest top 10 men around in height/weight.

2. Out of the best punchers Marciano fought(Louis Walcott Moore Layne)...which one of them hit harder than Joe Louis? None of them. Louis may have been 37, but Walcott and Moore were 38 and much smaller. Walcott proved a couple years earlier he could not go toe to toe with Louis and survive. Does anyone here think Layne could have gone toe to toe with even a 37 year old Louis and survived? Louis at 6'2 214lb was defintley the hardest one punch banger Marciano fought.

3.. You keep asking how many knockouts did he have in his comeback. Well you have to take into consideration the quality of opposition he faced. Had he feasted on 20-25 tomato cans/washed up men like foreman did in his comeback louis would have scored alot of kayos too. Instead Louis took on top 10 world class men/Fringe Contenders. For example he took on Top 10 Cesar Brion twice. Brion was 6'3 200lber and was known for having a rock chin..The fact louis did not kayo brion should not take credit away from louis power since brion could go the distace with anybody. He then fought Omelio Agramonte a slick fast flashy fighter...Watch the fight Agramonte completley runs away from him for 20 rounds. the one time Louis does land his sunday punch, Agramonte went down in the 2nd round for a 9 count. He then fought hall of fame Jimmy Bivins, who is known for both durability and fighting a cautious defensive fight...these types of fighters are extremley hard for an aging fighter to knock out. You have to remember, most of these fighters all they did was run away from louis...he was too old to catch them with fight finishing combinations. However Louis still had one punch brute power in his 6'2 214lb frame and when he landed, he left some serious swellling on his opponents faces.. I think Marciano should be creditted because he was the only man to fight louis toe to toe and win that battle...of course this was the old louis but how many men could go toe to toe with a 37 year old louis and win? not many IMO.

Of course Louis did show glimpses of serious power in 1950s...His knockout of Durable Pat Valentino was deadly with louis finishihng him off with a lethal combination...valentino out cold through the ropes.

Lee Savold was one of the most durable heavyweights in the world suffering just 2 stoppage losses to big punchers in the past DECADE. Savold was # 2 in the world and Heavyweight Champion BBBC.....Louis knocked him out flat with 1 left hook. A older out of shape savold would take marcianos best without going down, yet one left hook from louis put him down for 10 count.

Freddie Beshore a tough journeyman who went 14 rounds for charles title, went just 4 with louis and if you watch the fight...beshores face was such a bloody mess they had to stop it and he was on the verge of going down.

Both Charles and Marcianos faces looked like they been through meat grinders after tangling with old joe...and he didnt land much on these two. why were there faces marked up so badly? POWER

Future # 1 contender Nino Valdez, also was knocked out in just one round by Joe Louis

Rex Layne a future top contender was knocked out in a exhibition by joe louis trying to go toe to toe with the 37 year old





Though Louis was far past his prime by 1951...I make claim that Louis was still one of the biggest most powerful hitting heavies in the world in early 1950s.

[he grant]

I actually think the Joe Walcott that fought Rocky was a much more dangerous hitter than the Joe Louis that did .. Walcott could crush and was lightning fast and every time I watch that opening round I am amazed Rocky survived it like he did ... the guy was extremely tough ...

As far as Louis: Rocky's own words really should be bottom line.

[janitor]

I actually think the Joe Walcott that fought Rocky was a much more dangerous hitter than the Joe Louis that did .. Walcott could crush and was lightning fast and every time I watch that opening round I am amazed Rocky survived it like he did ... the guy was extremely tough ...

As far as Louis: Rocky's own words really should be bottom line.

You make a valid point about Walcott. He was probably a greater threat in terms of knocking an oponent out than Louis at this stage. The punch that put Marciano down is basicaly the one that seperated Ezzard Charles from his senses and his title.

I do think that there is circumstantial evidence that Louis was still a heavy puncher at this stage even if his reflexes were gone. Most common oponents of Louis and Marciano said that Marciano hit harder but Rex Layne said that Louis hit harder. Jimmy Bivins said that Louis had lost his timing and reflexes but still hit hard.

[SuzieQ49]

I actually think the Joe Walcott that fought Rocky was a much more dangerous hitter than the Joe Louis that did

This doesnt make any sense considering Walcott fought Louis a couple years earlier and was knocked out cold in the 11th when he tried to go toe to toe with Louis. Clearly Walcott was not as big and powerful a puncher as Joe Louis was.

[janitor]

This doesnt make any sense considering Walcott fought Louis a couple years earlier and was knocked out cold in the 11th when he tried to go toe to toe with Louis. Clearly Walcott was not as big and powerful a puncher as Joe Louis was.

Even when Walcott fought Louis (a better version) he was more dangerous in some aspects of the game.

Louis was lethal with a combination while Walcott might just be lethal with one punch.

[PetethePrince]

Prince you are very thin skinned. In your book it's fine to call someone a schizo but if they tag you back you whine ... if you want to play with the grown ups, temper your posts. This is the last time I am going to respond to you otherwise.

At least be original. I called you a schitzo because your opinion seems to be all over the place in this threads. It's as if you've changed your mind a lot or someone keeps jumping on your computer to post for you. Not meant to be a legit insult... just indecisive. Poor wording I suppose.

I actually think the Joe Walcott that fought Rocky was a much more dangerous hitter than the Joe Louis that did .. Walcott could crush and was lightning fast and every time I watch that opening round I am amazed Rocky survived it like he did ... the guy was extremely tough ...

As far as Louis: Rocky's own words really should be bottom line.

I actually can buy this. I don't think Walcott was the better puncher but definitely more dangerous at the time. It's more a testament to his toughness/chin. However, I don't think you can just dismiss the Louis fight. He takes some quick short clean shots and takes them well.

[BoppaZoo]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links] mate. That must hurt. dont care what anyone says. :good Look at that gash... Man still makes me go F*&^&( ouch every time.

[he grant]

Not allover at all ... I greatly respect Rocky and say so in context ... when I feel he is being raised to levels beyond reality, I keep it in context ... that's all ...

[OLD FOGEY]

I go with Marciano on the original question.

A. I am slightly more impressed with the punchers Marciano faced than with the punchers Dempsey faced.

B. On film, Dempsey is rocked, down, or staggering around much more than Marciano is. Brennan, Carpentier, Firpo, Tunney, and Sharkey, all hurt him on film, Firpo badly. Only Firpo might be a first rate puncher. We also have to consider what I think was an honest stoppage by Flynn, and the early career knockdowns, including nine by Sudenberg.

The point Boilermaker made I agree with. Marciano stood up to everyone of his era while being hurt less than anyone I can think of. I have to consider his chin of top quality as it never failed. Dempsey seems to have had a very good, but perhaps not quite top level chin, a B+ chin, let's say.

I give Marciano, and also some others such as Jeffries, an edge on Dempsey in whiskers. Of course, I might be wrong, but that is my judgement after studying the records and watching all available film.

[he grant]

I'd agree with you O.F. ... pretty sound judgement