The better fight: Fight of the Century or Thrilla in Manilla?

[bxrfan]

I'm going to have to go with FOTC on this one. Both guys were much closer to their primes then, and I believe the skill level was much more evident than in the third one. They weren't getting hit with punches they could've/should've blocked or dodged in the third fight, and both were in better condition for the first one.

[ironchamp]

For Pure action Thrilla takes it.

I don't think anybody realized what Joe Frazier was going to bring to the table. Ali's handlers actually thought that Joe was just a name at point. In fact it set records for most punches thrown in a HW fight until 1997 when David Tua and Ike Ibeabuchi broke that record.

FOTC was a great fight as well, but I lean towards fight 3

[My2Sense]

FOTC. Much more intense and dramatic IMO.

[PetethePrince]

Even though I find the FOTC as a fight is concerned to be underrated, I think the Thrilla in Manilla was the far better fight. As Teddy Atlas said, "They didn't quite have the skill and abilities so they met each other more often than they would have had they been younger or in their primes, but they still had that character. They still had that desire, grit, and determination. " He also said watching the fight was "humbling." Easily the third one for me.

[The Predator]

Yes, thrilla in manilla, for me as well.
The predator

[My dinner with Conteh]

FOTC would have been far better to experience at the time because it had all those elements of a great fight- two undefeated champs nearer their primes, a fight the whole world was interested in, while Manila had two fighters clearly on the slide.

However, I like to think of what my opinion would be if both these fights took place between any old Fighter A vs Fighter B- and Manila would always be wildly exiciting, that's why it gets my vote. Taking what happened 'in the ring', it's the better fight.

[McGrain]

FOTC. I don't enjoy watching Manilla to be honest.

[Bokaj]

It really is a 50-50 for me. FOTC sees them younger, smoother and quicker, but in Manilla the action swings more - making it even more exciting. It's much easier to decide which one I'd like a ringside seat at, though. That's FOTC, without a doubt. Ok, I'll let that swing it.

[Bokaj]

FOTC. I don't enjoy watching Manilla to be honest.

Why not?

[McGrain]

Why not?

They both take punches they should dump and they both get badly hurt.

[Arka]

FOTC for me. The action is more explosive and edge of the seat than the Thrilla. There is a noticeable decline in the athletic abilities of both Ali and Frazier in the second fight.

[red cobra]

My preference has always been the FOTC...it isn't fair to Frazier otherwise, as he was obviously past his peak by '75, after the toll that the ravages of the FOTC itself and the Foreman debacle had taken on him. I bet Frazier wishes that he had retired after the FOTC..his legacy and presitige would have been that of an undefeated champion...the "black Marciano", and he would be a legend.

[he grant]

Both were amazing for different reasons ..

The drama behind the first was unsurpassed . To me it is amazing Ali fought as well as he did. He really had little business being in that ring. It was in many ways his greatest and bravest performance.

Thrilla was brutal and painful but the story was Frazier ... few gave him a realshot coming in and the fact that he fought so tough till his body gave out was amazing ... the ironic twist at the end is legendary ..

[brando18b4h]

Thrilla in Manilla solidified both fighters legendary status. One of my all time favorites.

[Stonehands89]

"The Fight of the Century". Easily.

As mentioned, it was a momentous clash between the recognized HW champ and Ali coming back to reclaim what he felt was rightfully his. Both undefeated. Clash of styles. Both nearest their respective primes. This fight was truly a world event.

Aesthetically, it has the better, more accurate demonstration of skill as well as herculean will. Even the ref, Mercante was better. I prefer watching elites at their best, rather than the brain-damaging wars of less skilled warriors or in the case of Manila -elites on the slide.

FOTC was boxing at its dramatic and scientific best. Manila went into the file of the abolitionists ...I can't watch it without feeling a bit guilty because of the damage I know full well it did to both men.

[Arka]

Both were amazing for different reasons ..

The drama behind the first was unsurpassed . To me it is amazing Ali fought as well as he did. He really had little business being in that ring. It was in many ways his greatest and bravest performance.

Thrilla was brutal and painful but the story was Frazier ... few gave him a realshot coming in and the fact that he fought so tough till his body gave out was amazing ... the ironic twist at the end is legendary ..

Having non-stop pummeled Frazier's for 3 rounds,I doubt that Ali was going to quit or be pulled by his corner. I take it that's what you're referring to.
Legendary indeed.

[robert ungurean]

FOTC for me. Frazier was a machine.

[PbP Bacon]

FOTC is better from a "pure box" point of view. A better fight with both fighters close to their primes and with their skills pretty much intact.

But Thrilla wins hands down from a drama point of view. It is in a category of its own. Clash of titans. However, I agree that Thrilla leaves a bittersweet taste when you realize how much permanent damage both fighters took :verysad

[Minotauro]

Fight of the Century both guys far closer to their primes and just a better fight.

[Mr Butt]

fight of the century prefer the result

[PetethePrince]

I understand how FOTC is the far better spectacle. In fact it's arguably the greatest sporting event. But in terms of a fight I'm surprised by the results of this poll.

[Bill Butcher]

The `Thrilla in Manila` was clearly the better fight, thats not a debate in my mind, as good as the FOTC was, great fight also, it didnt have the brutality of the 3rd fight.

The `Thrilla` is by far the greatest HWT fight in history & the only HWT fight that makes my top 10.

Both were younger in 71 & the fight may have been `bigger` but it most definitely wasnt `better.`

Maybe Frazier fans might prefer the 71 fight tho, who knows how this vote will go, ESB is a bit loopy at times.


Botswana :smoke

[Bill Butcher]

FOTC. I don't enjoy watching Manilla to be honest.

You must be a HUGE Frazier fan to not enjoy that fight, that was a great great fight IMO, the best HWT fight ever.

[Bill Butcher]

Just checked the poll, suprise suprise, the fight Frazier won is leading 18-13.

The thread asked for `better fight` not `biggest fight`

[TIGEREDGE]

even though it was great, i hate watchin g the third fight. it was too brutal and intense.

[McGrain]

You must be a HUGE Frazier fan to not enjoy that fight, that was a great great fight IMO, the best HWT fight ever.

Ali takes horrible shots he shouldn't be, too. The fight just gives me an uneasy sense of impending disaster, always - I get a dose of fear when watching.

[McGrain]

Just checked the poll, suprise suprise, the fight Frazier won is leading 18-13.

The thread asked for `better fight` not `biggest fight`

This is a strange thing to say.

Ali is a far more popular fighter than Frazier.

And the skill levels on show IS better in the first fight...your preference for brutality is what places you in the minority here IMO, not a secret preference amongst Classic posters for Joe Frazier.

[OBCboxer]

FOTC was the better fight. Both were closer to their primes, both were undefeated and more was on the line. The Thrilla was more exciting but it was just too bitter old men fighting because of pure hatred for each other. I enjoy watching FOTC a lot more.

[PetethePrince]

FOTC was the better fight. Both were closer to their primes, both were undefeated and more was on the line. The Thrilla was more exciting but it was just too bitter old men fighting because of pure hatred for each other. I enjoy watching FOTC a lot more.

So you actually think Ali hated Frazier?

[OBCboxer]

So you actually think Ali hated Frazier?

I know he didn't particularly like Frazier.

[McGrain]

He hated him alright.

[Clinton]

Great thread again.You guys are excellent.This is why the Classic is so much better than the General.

[PetethePrince]

I know he didn't particularly like Frazier.

Right, but he seemed to not particular like a lot of people. Patterson included. It was mostly the whole "uncle tom" thing. But Ali grew and later realized that all white men weren't the devil and such. He matured and got wiser. Still, I don't think he hate Frazier. I think it's more of a 1 sided hate with Ali clowning like usual. If he hates Frazier, then he hates a lot of fighters. It was Frazier who took it the worse and certainly hates Ali still. Dundee says Ali had zero malice.

He hated him alright. This blanket statement doesn't do much. Maybe he presented this in some case, especially that show he had on Parkinson's in 74. But really, what makes you truly believe he hated Joe and specifically Joe. Do you think he hated other fighters too? Joe seemed to take it the worst, Ali clowned a lot with everyone. I'm curious to your insight on this.

As for the thread. Somewhat surprised by the results so far. Most people I've heard/seen downplay the actual fight as if it were some sort of letdown because the event was huge. In my opinion the fight is underrated, so ESB must think the same with me on this. Most I think consider the 3rd the best fight, at least I thought so.

[OBCboxer]

Right, but he seemed to not particular like a lot of people. Patterson included. It was mostly the whole "uncle tom" thing. But Ali grew and later realized that all white men weren't the devil and such. He matured and got wiser. Still, I don't think he hate Frazier. I think it's more of a 1 sided hate with Ali clowning like usual. If he hates Frazier, then he hates a lot of fighters. It was Frazier who took it the worse and certainly hates Ali still. Dundee says Ali had zero malice.

This blanket statement doesn't do much. Maybe he presented this in some case, especially that show he had on Parkinson's in 74. But really, what makes you truly believe he hated Joe and specifically Joe. Do you think he hated other fighters too? Joe seemed to take it the worst, Ali clowned a lot with everyone. I'm curious to your insight on this.

As for the thread. Somewhat surprised by the results so far. Most people I've heard/seen downplay the actual fight as if it were some sort of letdown because the event was huge. In my opinion the fight is underrated, so ESB must think the same with me on this. Most I think consider the 3rd the best fight, at least I thought so.

That's your opinion. :happy

I mean really, you give this whole essay response to a sentence with 5 words in it and how he didn't hate him.

[PetethePrince]

That's your opinion. :happy

I mean really, you give this whole essay response to a sentence with 5 words in it and how he didn't hate him.

:-((

That hurts. But in all seriousness, Ali didn't hate Frazier. And that's a fact!

Whoops, see how I did that? And just because you believe otherwise doesn't change the fact that it's a fact. How do you like that?

And it's my opinion that Joe Frazier could beat Muhammad Ali in a 100 yard dash. And it's also my opinion that Thomas Hearns could bench press more than George Foreman! :happy

[Thread Stealer]

I prefer the 3rd fight. Even though they weren't the same in 75' as they were four years earlier, I think that's part of the reason the action was even better IMO in Manila.

There was the atmosphere of the first fight being between two undefeated "champs", the political backdrop and everything, but that doesn't affect my experience of watching the fight as I wasn't even alive then.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Maybe Frazier fans might prefer the 71 fight tho, who knows how this vote will go, ESB is a bit loopy at times.

Yeah, like people who voted for 74 Ali to beat peak Frazier. :yep

[My dinner with Conteh]

This is a strange thing to say.

Ali is a far more popular fighter than Frazier.

And the skill levels on show IS better in the first fight...your preference for brutality is what places you in the minority here IMO, not a secret preference amongst Classic posters for Joe Frazier.


Bill's another who deifies Ali on an embarrassing level and who can't see that his posts on Ali are exactly the same bias as the Frazier ones he's having a go at. He's so upset he's done an Ali 67 vs Frazier 71 poll to feel better. :lol:

[My dinner with Conteh]

:-((

That hurts. But in all seriousness, Ali didn't hate Frazier. And that's a fact!


I don't think he hated him either.

[McGrain]

This blanket statement doesn't do much.

Well, it provides a concise answer to your question, "do you think Ali hated Frazier?"

Ali clowned a lot with everyone. I'm curious to your insight on this.

"You Frazier is ugly...he say's he's satisfied. Sure he's satisfied, with a crumb. Man, he's been in a meathouse all his life, he's thankful to get a crumb. White folks...give a ****** a crumb and expect him to be thankful."

- Muhammad Ali

Ali didn't humiliate any of his opponents in the ways he attacked Frazier. His attacks went right to Frazier's core. They extended to times when there were no press present and extended to Frazier's family.

[McGrain]

Bill's another who deifies Ali on an embarrassing level and who can't see that his posts on Ali are exactly the same bias as the Frazier ones he's having a go at. He's so upset he's done an Ali 67 vs Frazier 71 poll to feel better. :lol:

I'm just not going anywhere near that thread. This is one of those things that people explain to folks every four or five weeks i'm god damned if i'm doing it two days straight.

[Bokaj]

Ali takes horrible shots he shouldn't be, too. The fight just gives me an uneasy sense of impending disaster, always - I get a dose of fear when watching.

While I agree with you in general that the skill level was somewhat higher in FOTC and that Manilla makes up for this with brutality (but also excitement), I actually think Ali took more clean shots in FOTC. That's actually the fight I feel he takes the most unnecissary shots since he insists on keeping his hands low, as if it's still 1967.

[McGrain]

I actually think Ali took more clean shots in FOTC. That's actually the fight I feel he takes the most unnecissary shots since he insists on keeping his hands low, as if it's still 1967.

It doesn't seem likely to me, but I guess it's possible, i'll conceed it's possible - Frazier might agree with you, so there's your weight.

Regardless, his collapse at the end of Manilla is more alarming than his reaction at the end of the FOTC, where i believe he was just overnight for observation?

[Bokaj]

It doesn't seem likely to me, but I guess it's possible, i'll conceed it's possible - Frazier might agree with you, so there's your weight.

Regardless, his collapse at the end of Manilla is more alarming than his reaction at the end of the FOTC, where i believe he was just overnight for observation?

Yeah, Manilla was one bridge too far for both. The brutality of FOTC is bad enough, so to get a sickening feeling of seeing two great fighters wrecking irrevocable damage on each other in Manilla is a sound reaction, I'd say. These fights are both boxing at its best and its worst. Especially Manilla.

[McGrain]

It's just a fight with doom written all over it. I love that Futch wouldn't let Frazier out. My opinion is that in that moment Frazier was ready to be pulled, although the man he was, he would never be able to articulate that directly.

[Bokaj]

It's just a fight with doom written all over it. I love that Futch wouldn't let Frazier out. My opinion is that in that moment Frazier was ready to be pulled, although the man he was, he would never be able to articulate that directly.

You're probably right.

[Clinton]

My preference has always been the FOTC...it isn't fair to Frazier otherwise, as he was obviously past his peak by '75, after the toll that the ravages of the FOTC itself and the Foreman debacle had taken on him. I bet Frazier wishes that he had retired after the FOTC..his legacy and presitige would have been that of an undefeated champion...the "black Marciano", and he would be a legend.Great avatar,Cobra.

[Bill Butcher]

This is a strange thing to say.

Ali is a far more popular fighter than Frazier.

Worldwide, of course he is but he doesnt have nowhere near as much fans on ESB as he has on other sites, he actually has a few that dislike him due to his verbal treatment of Joe amongst other things.
It seems to be the ESB consensus to not rate Ali as high as most others do just because of his fame, Teeto says something similar, I dont remember word for word but I remember feeling he hit the nail on the head.

:good

[Bill Butcher]

Bill's another who deifies Ali on an embarrassing level and who can't see that his posts on Ali are exactly the same bias as the Frazier ones he's having a go at. He's so upset he's done an Ali 67 vs Frazier 71 poll to feel better. :lol:

:nono

Not to feel better, just to see the opinions of the classic section.

Feel free to head over to the general or Brit forum while its being discussed if you like, its a free world I hear ;)

[Arka]

:-((

That hurts. But in all seriousness, Ali didn't hate Frazier. And that's a fact!



I think Ali disliked Frazier after the FotC,because of the blow to his ego,especially the way Frazier took the limelight.

He grew fonder of him after Foreman did a number on Joe and he himself beat him twice afterwards.



BTW I admit the final few rounds of the Thrilla were a very satisfactory ending to the trilogy

[Arka]

Regardless, his collapse at the end of Manilla is more alarming than his reaction at the end of the FOTC, where i believe he was just overnight for observation?

Well,remember, he faints at the end of Rumble . Seeing this Bundini starts crying.

[Schmapps]

Well,remember, he faints at the end of Rumble . Bundini then starts crying.


Really? I remember him sort of being lifted up into the air by supporters after the Rumble, I don't remember him fainting? :huh

[Arka]

He faints for a moment in the throng. It's noticeable.
I believe Norman Mailer commented on it.

Must have been the emotions and relief.

[Bill Butcher]

Well,remember, he faints at the end of Rumble . Seeing this Bundini starts crying.

What are you talking about ?

Ali sat down in the middle of the ring to avoid all the commotion because the ring was full, he hated all that shit directly after a fight.

He did the same in the 3rd Frazier fight but that time, he was thankful for a seat, he needed one.

[Arka]

He's faints,while he's standing among the crowd- immediately after the fight ends.
He snaps out of it a couple of seconds later.

Check the footage. It's there.

[Robbi]

Thrilla in Manila.

[prime]

Boxing is skill, drama, a test.

Skillwise, of course FOTC is greater. The stage was bigger, too.

But it seems to me Frazier more or less had it in the bag after the 11th at the Garden. In fact, after Ali's amazing barrage at the end of the 9th, I struggle to remember anything offensively noteworthy by him. Besides, both men were still young, so, regardless of the result, it was natural to look to future, perhaps even greater thrills down the line.

Manila was the final showdown. Everything was on the line. The men were older, worn, fat. But they still retained much of their skill, and, as was eventually proven, their indomitable will was intact.

Every last resource was called upon by both sides. The men punched with primal passion, there were many searing tide turns, and both left part of their essence in that ring. I just don't see this at FOTC.

Even in defeat on his stool, a blinking, swollen, head-shaking Frazier looks a titan to me. The result of the fight seems in a way irrelevant. Both men proved to be equals.

[GPater11093]

The FOTC for me is a great fight in action and skills and a great fight.

The Thrilla is amazing to me that 2 past prime rivals put in that much into the fight i sit there in awe and wonder at them i really do.

i dont know which ones better but there both great and will always be remembered

[PetethePrince]

"You Frazier is ugly...he say's he's satisfied. Sure he's satisfied, with a crumb. Man, he's been in a meathouse all his life, he's thankful to get a crumb. White folks...give a ****** a crumb and expect him to be thankful."

- Muhammad Ali

Ali didn't humiliate any of his opponents in the ways he attacked Frazier. His attacks went right to Frazier's core. They extended to times when there were no press present and extended to Frazier's family.

I suppose that's fair enough. I'm pretty sure I can find a quote of him ranking out another fighter somewhat like that though. When did Ali diss Frazier's family? In fact, I remember him eating with Frazier's cousins.' I guess he just hated Joe but was fine with hanging out with his family? By the way, do you know when/where that quote takes place. Any film on it?

If Ali hated him then he must've hated him in his home. I don't think it translates into anything I've seen on film. I think he may have thought that Frazier was a man who "didn't know where he was going" or wasn't as "smart" but Ali thought that for most fighters. Even the "ignorant" fight in the studio is such a laugh to watch. Ali is completely clowning with that fake angry expression when getting pulled back by people. Even the tone of his voice, "Sit down Joe." And then the "QUICK JOE!" :lol: classic. Joe was pissed and mad and I know Joe rightfully maybe hated Ali. Not sure the other way though.

[Bill Butcher]

He's faints,while he's standing among the crowd- immediately after the fight ends.
He snaps out of it a couple of seconds later.

Check the footage. It's there.

Ive seen the fight about 50 times, no need to check it again.

[Arka]

Ive seen the fight about 50 times, no need to check it again.

:roll:

[McGrain]

iI suppose that's fair enough. I'm pretty sure I can find a quote of him ranking out another fighter somewhat like that though.

You can't. Or if you can i'd be interested to see. He called Frazier a ******, a house-******, a gorilla. He attacked the core of the man's race.

When did Ali diss Frazier's family?

He didn't, to my knowledge. But in the run up to the second fight Frazier's children were being bullied at school and his life was being threatened by black supremacists. Ali was almost certainly aware of this but his . His attack intensified for the third fight inspite of these facts where a show of solidarity was well overdue. He was also of the opinion that Frazier was washed up. It didn't stop him seeking out and humiliating Frazier as well as threatening him with what appeared to be a firearm with no press or massed public anywhere in site.

By the way, do you know when/where that quote takes place. Any film on it?

Which one? The one I put up? It's printed, not filmed to my knowledge.

If Ali hated him then he must've hated him in his home. I don't think it translates into anything I've seen on film. I think he may have thought that Frazier was a man who "didn't know where he was going" or wasn't as "smart" but Ali thought that for most fighters. Even the "ignorant" fight in the studio is such a laugh to watch. Ali is completely clowning with that fake angry expression when getting pulled back by people. Even the tone of his voice, "Sit down Joe." And then the "QUICK JOE!" :lol: classic. Joe was pissed and mad and I know Joe rightfully maybe hated Ali. Not sure the other way though.

Well here's the thing - he had reason to hate him and he behaved like he hated him. You've declared it a "fact" that Ali didn't hate him - I submit that the weight of evidence is very much to the contrary.

Ali was far, far harder on his black opponents than his white ones, generally, but he was hardest of all on Frazier, even when he percieved him as no threat ("They told me you was washed up Joe"). If he didn't hate him, I would declare him psychotic, personally.

[Bill Butcher]

Frazier seems to have gathered a lot of sympathy over the yrs, he does seem like a good guy in general but he is a very bitter old man thats holding a grudge decades old & its getting him nowhere, he also hinted on many occassions that Ali deserves his current condition.

Also... if Joe was truly hurt as much as he says by Ali, why the fuck did he appear on `this is your life` when Ali was on it ?... thats very 2 faced IMO, indecisive at best, he should have told them to fuck off & that he had no time for Ali but he didnt, he went on & said good things about Ali... this was in the mid 70s too.

I dont get Joe at times, I think he`s actually just grown bitter over time because of the recognition Ali recieves compared to him.

Thats my take on things.

[McGrain]

Frazier seems to have gathered a lot of sympathy over the yrs.

He had a lot of sympathy at the time.

But yes, he is certainly a bitter old man.

[PetethePrince]

i

You can't. Or if you can i'd be interested to see. He called Frazier a ******, a house-******, a gorilla. He attacked the core of the man's race.

I'm not going to decipher through the stars. The gorilla is one of the things that he did worst to Frazier. But honestly, I just feel Ali thought he actually looked like one. Just like he thought George was the mummy, Floyd was the rabbit and Liston was the bear. He also went to Floyd's camp and brought him carrots. He dissed all his opponents. Frazier took it the worse and Ali because of this new the opportunity to take it to the extreme. I honestly don't think he liked the guy but I don't believe he hated him. If I judge merely by his actions than he hated a lot of fighters. I think most of it was Ali being Ali. And that's what many around Ali say too.



He didn't, to my knowledge. But in the run up to the second fight Frazier's children were being bullied at school and his life was being threatened by black supremacists. Ali was almost certainly aware of this but his . His attack intensified for the third fight inspite of these facts where a show of solidarity was well overdue. He was also of the opinion that Frazier was washed up. It didn't stop him seeking out and humiliating Frazier as well as threatening him with what appeared to be a firearm with no press or massed public anywhere in site.

How many times have you watched the Thrilla in Manilla documentary :rofl. It doesn't get more one-sided and presumptious than that one. It's a fair POV to look at though. As for the Frazier kids thing. Yeah, they were actually affected up until the 1st fight not 2nd fight. His kids got bullied, threatened, and thus couldn't see FOTC. I don't know whether Ali knew about his kids getting bullied. Maybe later on, maybe around the 3rd one because he apologized to Joe's kid... although not to him but to Joe. So I think that's an assumption on your part. Ali made fun of him a lot of the 3rd fight. That was Ali... he thought plenty of fighters were shot or not the same. The whole firearm incident isn't a case of Ali going out of his way because press wasn't there. That's misleading, the truth of the matter is Ali was making another spectactle at a time when the press wasn't there. Remember the lady "Where is the press. They been in your face like this everday." It's not like Ali worked around this schedule to get something in while the press wasn't there.


Ali was far, far harder on his black opponents than his white ones, generally, but he was hardest of all on Frazier, even when he percieved him as no threat ("They told me you was washed up Joe"). If he didn't hate him, I would declare him psychotic, personally.

Yes the "they told me you was washed up Joe" was the worst thing Ali said to an opponent while in the ring. :lol: Ali might not have liked Joe, although he grew a great respect for him after the 3rd fight. As for hating, I think Ali hated Terrel... and guess what. He acted like it, showed it, and seemed genuine mad. If he hated Frazier, he did one hell of a job being completely calm and cool about it. I think he just loved getting under his skin and knew he could.

[Bokaj]

I agree with McGrain and the rest. The things Ali said and the way he acted against Frazier was disgraceful. One of the blackest marks on his character.

[Bill Butcher]

I agree with McGrain and the rest. The things Ali said and the way he acted against Frazier was disgraceful. One of the blackest marks on his character.

Im sure the million$$$$$ helped ease the pain just a little.

[McGrain]

I'm not going to decipher through the stars.

****** was the word Ali chose to use to describe Joe Frazier, over and again.

But honestly, I just feel Ali thought he actually looked like one.

You think he thought Joe looked like a ****** too?





How many times have you watched the Thrilla in Manilla documentary :rofl.

Twice. I wrote this article for an ESB website some months before the documentary:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

So if your hysterical attack of the giggles is in some way meant to infer you think all my information is coming from that documentary i've already preceeded a detailed account of their rivalry in public. How many times have YOU seen it?




Maybe later on, maybe around the 3rd one because he apologized to Joe's kid... although not to him but to Joe.

I thin your'e referring to Ali's apology to Marvis.

So I think that's an assumption on your part.

Ali made fun of him a lot of the 3rd fight.

If you call threatening him with a gun, attacking him with the worst possible racial slurs "fun".

That was Ali...

I've already challanged you to provide examples of attacks upon opponents anything like as horrific as the ones he levelled at Frazier, and you've failed to do so. That's because he was never as vicious with any opponent as he was with Joe, he didn't try as hard to sabotage any opponent as he did with Joe, he flat out wasn't has evil to any other opponent as he was with Joe. Terrell is the distant second. So no, that wasn't Ali. He called Patterson and Uncle Tom once I believe, and there were some uncomfortable racial moments with Terrell, but his attack on Frazier was on his entire relationship with his own race! "Any black man who supports Frazier is an Uncle Tom." That's an absolutley astonishing thing to say. The New York Daily News caleld his attempt to "whitewash" Frazier, "cruel and unworthy", and that was for the FOTC! By Manilla, be had gone way beyond "cruela and unworthy". For you to dismiss this as "Trying to get under Frazier's skin" is ridiculous, and very obviously ridiculous.

The whole firearm incident isn't a case of Ali going out of his way because press wasn't there. That's misleading, the truth of the matter is Ali was making another spectactle at a time when the press wasn't there. Remember the lady "Where is the press. They been in your face like this everday." It's not like Ali worked around this schedule to get something in while the press wasn't there.

What is misleading? I've said that he did this when there was no press. There wasn't. The point I am making is that when Ali waved carrots at Patterson he made sure the press would be there. When Ali drove up on Liston's lawn he called the press first. When Ali called Foreman a mummy it was for the press he never went to Foreman's hotel room just to attack him. The "firearm incident" is the exact opposite. Whether he "worked around this schedule" or not, I don't know, I do know this wasn't a stunt for the press like most of his other "fun". This was about him and JOe.




Yes the "they told me you was washed up Joe" was the worst thing Ali said to an opponent while in the ring. :lol:

Are you actually laughing when you post these emoticons?

I didn't say that this was the worst thing that Ali ever said in the ring. The point I am making to you, and I feel it should have been pretty clear, is that Ali's attack on Joe was most vicious when he believed he was in for his easiest fight. In Manilla he really went to town on a fighter he felt more sure he had the beating of than on the other two occasions. He didn't need to gain some supposed advantage (and actually, nursing Joe's hatred is the worst thing any fighter could do) by attacking Joe over and over again.

Ali might not have liked Joe, although he grew a great respect for him after the 3rd fight. As for hating, I think Ali hated Terrel... and guess what. He acted like it, showed it, and seemed genuine mad. If he hated Frazier, he did one hell of a job being completely calm and cool about it. I think he just loved getting under his skin and knew he could.

I think you perhaps need to actually provide evidence rather than opinion, especially if you're going to kick up such long posts.

Ali was nothing like as vicious with Terrell as he was with Frazier. So I don't really know what the fuck that opinion is about.

[Bill Butcher]

Not a fan of Ali, Mcgrain ? :D

[McGrain]

Not a fan of Ali, Mcgrain ? :D


Threads i've started in praise of Ali JUST in this month. I rate him top 10 p4p all time and #1 at HW:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

I'm actually accused of bias in favour of Ali in the first linked thread.

I'm a fan of Ali, yes.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Threads i've started in praise of Ali JUST in this month. I rate him top 10 p4p all time and #1 at HW:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

I'm actually accused of bias in favour of Ali in the first linked thread.

I'm a fan of Ali, yes.

It's amazing isn't it. If If you're not smoking Ali's cock some boneheads think you can't appreciate him. This forum was good a few years ago, it's full of pathetic fanboys now.

[McGrain]

This forum was good a few years ago, it's full of pathetic fanboys now.

Ah, don't say that.

It does get tough though. On the other hand, if i'm being accused by nut-huggers of hating a fighter and accused by the haters of hugging a fighter i know I have him about right.

[Bill Butcher]

It's amazing isn't it. If If you're not smoking Ali's cock some boneheads think you can't appreciate him. This forum was good a few years ago, it's full of pathetic fanboys now.

Hope that shits not directed at me for asking McGrain a harmless question, if it is then you jump the gun far too quick & are too sensitive, if its not then fair play.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Hope that shits not directed at me for asking Mcgrain a harmless question, if it is then you jump the gun far too quick & are too sensitive, if its not then fair play.

I'm not at all sensitive, I laugh at loud at people who have hero worship on your scale. I find it highly amusing.

[Stevie G]

I hold with the consensus that FOTC was the better fight,skill wise and overall signifigance,yet TTIM was more punishing for both men. You could see that the final curtain was being played out. Neither guy should have gone into the ring again unless they were dressed in a suit.

[Bill Butcher]

I'm not at all sensitive, I laugh at loud at people who have hero worship on your scale. I find it highly amusing.

Your post (post 71) doesnt sound as if your highly amused, you seem troubled, maybe its just me.

Ps. I keep meaning to ask, how was that dinner with Conteh ?
On a 1-5 scale... 1 being shit & 5 being ecstatic ? :think

[My dinner with Conteh]

Your post (post 71) doesnt sound as if your highly amused, you seem troubled, maybe its just me.

It is just you. Still, 'huggers' are the only people I love debating with on here, as I know their man-love will always be their undoing.


Ps. I keep meaning to ask, how was that dinner with Conteh ?
On a 1-5 scale... 1 being shit & 5 being ecstatic ? :think


He didn't turn up. Ronnie Corbett had him done over again. :yep

[Bill Butcher]

It is just you. Still, 'huggers' are the only people I love debating with on here, as I know their man-love will always be their undoing.

Everyone needs some `hugging` sometimes, not sure about the man-love tho.

[PetethePrince]

****** was the word Ali chose to use to describe Joe Frazier, over and again.

I've heard, read, and seen so much on the rivalry. Don't remember Ali calling him that countless. Now Uncle Tom I do.



You think he thought Joe looked like a ****** too? Are you trying to evoke a reaction out of me rather than just accepting my first answer?







Twice. I wrote this article for an ESB website some months before the documentary:

[Only registered and activated users can see links] skimmed it, I will read it in full later. But I see already highly disputed stuff in there. Joe claimed Ali said this “Don’t you know I’m God,” Ali offered. “God, you’re in the wrong place tonight. However Ali claims different. In fact he denies saying this on Champions Night Out dinner in 1988 saying he would never call himself God. Also, the documentary was actually finished in 2007 but released by HBO around early 09.


I thin your'e referring to Ali's apology to Marvis. If you call threatening him with a gun, attacking him with the worst possible racial slurs "fun". I don't think you'll ever find your N claim on tape, at least I haven't.

I've already challanged you to provide examples of attacks upon opponents anything like as horrific as the ones he levelled at Frazier, and you've failed to do so. That's because he was never as vicious with any opponent as he was with Joe, he didn't try as hard to sabotage any opponent as he did with Joe, he flat out wasn't has evil to any other opponent as he was with Joe. Terrell is the distant second. So no, that wasn't Ali. You challenged and I failed? Right. First of all it's time to show examples when we can't even agree on the level of things Ali said to Joe. Maybe because there's controversy on this, but in terms of public record you're extended this. Even the terribly slated Thrilla doc didn't mention Ali calling Frazier the N word.

He called Patterson and Uncle Tom once I believe, and there were some uncomfortable racial moments with Terrell, but his attack on Frazier was on his entire relationship with his own race! He called Floyd an uncle tom once? Are you serious with trying to downplay every other thing. Ali proved hate against Terrel. He was spiteful and had a mean streak about him and the fight was highly criticized. That is easily the first display of Ali's anger and hate. If Ali had trouble with other fighters he would have said the same ol "If you back him you're an uncle tom" had he had any trouble with them... but he didn't.

Any black man who supports Frazier is an Uncle Tom." That's an absolutley astonishing thing to say. The New York Daily News caleld his attempt to "whitewash" Frazier, "cruel and unworthy", and that was for the FOTC! By Manilla, be had gone way beyond "cruela and unworthy". For you to dismiss this as "Trying to get under Frazier's skin" is ridiculous, and very obviously ridiculous. Went over the first part. This is what you don't get. Ali had a rivarly with Joe. The first man to beat him. There was media, there was attention, there was 3 fights. Ali had a chance to do a whole lot and maybe disliked Joe for beating him. Personally, I don't see hate if you look within at the things he says and how he does it. Show me anything Ali does to Joe or say to Joe without it looking like clowning. If you can't see it or you can't see how it's Ali then you don't know Ali. You look at the actions, or what he said and maybe it's disgraceful and unjustifable but that's not relevant. You said Ali clearly hated Joe. I don't believe that.

What is misleading? I've said that he did this when there was no press. There wasn't. The point I am making is that when Ali waved carrots at Patterson he made sure the press would be there. When Ali drove up on Liston's lawn he called the press first. When Ali called Foreman a mummy it was for the press he never went to Foreman's hotel room just to attack him. The "firearm incident" is the exact opposite. Whether he "worked around this schedule" or not, I don't know, I do know this wasn't a stunt for the press like most of his other "fun". This was about him and JOe. No you don't. More presumptious, no surprise coming from McGrain. I explained the circumstance of Manilla. Press was always all over. Now you think Ali purposely went out of his wat when the press wasn't present to do this sort of thing? Nonsense.

I think you perhaps need to actually provide evidence rather than opinion, especially if you're going to kick up such long posts.

Ali was nothing like as vicious with Terrell as he was with Frazier. So I don't really know what the fuck that opinion is about. You're retarded if you can't see within the context of things. I've provided enough examples and facts. You make claims that have can't be backed up by any film. Ali was menacing towards Terrel in and out of the ring. It was the only time he brought true hostility. All of Ali's "You know how I prepare for Joe Frazier, I go to the zoo!" were all done almost half jokingly. You can't deny this. I have tons of this on film.

When they throw a Gorilla stuffed animal in the ring and says "That's Joe Frazier! That's Joe Frazier! Get him out, I'm scared." I'm not saying this action isn't right or justified. Or when Ali is beating on a mini gorrel saying "Come on Gorilla, we in Manilla" and laughing, it's not right but it's not done menacing. Even Don King made a sour face about that.

I will agree that Ali thought down of Joe. He thought was a victim of circumstance and I do believe he thought he was ignorant.


-- By the way I'm just as much an Ali fan as a Frazier fan. Just calling it truthfully.

[prime]

I don't believe Ali hated Joe Frazier.

With Ali, it was all about narcissism, showmanship. The inarticulate Frazier was a perfect foil.

Ali simply, gleefully, crossed the line time and again with Joe. It was utter stupidity to disrespect such a decent man as Frazier that way. Since kindergarten, we sometimes come across someone who just seems irresistibly vulnerable to taunting. Joe had helped Ali before their first meeting. It was delicious justice that Ali paid at FOTC.

But hate? I don't see it. I am confident anyone who knows Ali would reject the notion. He didn't even express hatred after being stripped of his title. In his way, Ali was a religious man. After taking his lumps at FOTC, the very moment to show hatred at his conqueror, Ali gave Frazier credit and spoke of redemption, but never hatred. Why should he have harbored hatred years later in Manila of a man he had taken revenge from, who had been turned into a basketball by a monster he had since slain, and was by then seen as nonthreatening?

I see utter stupidity, not hatred, from Ali.

[groove]

i've noticed all the fighters that still called ali CLAY he wanted to embarass - patterson, terrell, bonavena and frazier all called him CLAY.

[PetethePrince]

I don't believe Ali hated Joe Frazier.

With Ali, it was all about narcissism, showmanship. The inarticulate Frazier was a perfect foil.

Ali simply, gleefully, crossed the line time and again with Joe. It was utter stupidity to disrespect such a decent man as Frazier that way. Since kindergarten, we sometimes come across someone who just seems irresistibly vulnerable to taunting. Joe had helped Ali before their first meeting. It was delicious justice that Ali paid at FOTC.

But hate? I don't see it. I am confident anyone who knows Ali would reject the notion. He didn't even express hatred after being stripped of his title. In his way, Ali was a religious man. After taking his lumps at FOTC, the very moment to show hatred at his conqueror, Ali gave Frazier credit and spoke of redemption, but never hatred. Why should he have harbored hatred years later in Manila of a man he had taken revenge from, who had been turned into a basketball by a monster he had since slain, and was by then seen as nonthreatening?

I see utter stupidity, not hatred, from Ali.

:happy Terrific post. From reading biographies to reading his autobiography to hearing with other's thought this would lead you to probably believe that he crossed the line with Joe and made wrong choices but didn't hate him.

In 1990 for the FOTC CBS documentary on the fight Ali said he loved Joe Frazier and that Joe Frazier made him what he was. He also talked about how he said so many things and can't believe it and doesn't remember saying so many things and how he was such a riot.

In 1975 before the Thrilla in Manilla fight, Ali said this. "I just like talking about him, he's a nice fellow. Just makes him hot, ya know, I want to get him real made. Because when the man gets mad he gets so made and wants to get you so bad and he don't think. So I like to get him mad."

[PbP Bacon]

I don't believe Ali hated Joe Frazier.

With Ali, it was all about narcissism, showmanship. The inarticulate Frazier was a perfect foil.

I see utter stupidity, not hatred, from Ali.

Right on :good

Ali was too much in love with himself as to waste energies hating Frazier or anybody else.

[Arka]

I don't believe Ali hated Joe Frazier.

With Ali, it was all about narcissism, showmanship. The inarticulate Frazier was a perfect foil.

Ali simply, gleefully, crossed the line time and again with Joe. It was utter stupidity to disrespect such a decent man as Frazier that way. Since kindergarten, we sometimes come across someone who just seems irresistibly vulnerable to taunting. Joe had helped Ali before their first meeting. It was delicious justice that Ali paid at FOTC.

But hate? I don't see it. I am confident anyone who knows Ali would reject the notion. He didn't even express hatred after being stripped of his title. In his way, Ali was a religious man. After taking his lumps at FOTC, the very moment to show hatred at his conqueror, Ali gave Frazier credit and spoke of redemption, but never hatred. Why should he have harbored hatred years later in Manila of a man he had taken revenge from, who had been turned into a basketball by a monster he had since slain, and was by then seen as nonthreatening?

I see utter stupidity, not hatred, from Ali.


Great post. Nowadays,I think Ali's narcissism has taken a knock from the Parkinson's arising out of the sustained brain damage he took from the Thrilla onwards.Frazier has publicly expressed his satisfaction at Ali's present medical condition.

I guess-at least on the personal level- Ali,himself, must be a saint not to have a little bit of ill will towards Joe.

[McGrain]

I've heard, read, and seen so much on the rivalry. Don't remember Ali calling him that countless.

It is absolutley astonishing to me that you have managed to hear "read, and seen so much" without coming across this, in fact I don't believe you.

Ghosts of Manilla p25 - "Can you believe that country ******?"

Ghosts of Manilla, p126 - "Joe Frazier is a little old ****** boy who ain't been anywhere 'cept Philly, never done nothing."

Frontline: Snapshots of History, p184 - "That ****** has taken to many to the head."

The Greatest Boxing Stories Ever Told p303 - "I'm gonna put a whippin on that ******'s head."

Obviously I could go on. The Guardian: "[Ali] twisted the fight into a race war, calling Joe Frazier Uncle Tom - "the white man's ******". It's generally known and accepted as a reality for anyone who's investigated the fight.






Are you trying to evoke a reaction out of me rather than just accepting my first answer?

I'm questioning your answer.

You really, really believe that you can excuse Ali's calling Frazier a "gorrilla" - a racially charged name born of dehumanising coverage as far back as the 1800's but rarely encountered in boxing post 50's - by claiming that "Ali really thought that"? Are you kidding? That's genuinely shocking. Ali was just being fun? Calling him a gorrilla because he looked like one?

And that validates the question. If it's ok to call Ali a gorilla because he looks like one, is it also ok to call him a ****** if he looks like one? To Ali?







I skimmed it, I will read it in full later. But I see already highly disputed stuff in there. Joe claimed Ali said this “Don’t you know I’m God,” Ali offered. “God, you’re in the wrong place tonight. However Ali claims different.

I have no interest in your opinion of my article.

I posted it because in a fit of hysteria you seemed to be inferring that I was drawing all my information from a documentary. My knowledge of the rivalry - far more complete than yours if you have genuinely NEVER come across the word ****** used by Ali about Frazier - is drawn from books, film, newspaper articles, not an HBO documentary.

Also, the documentary was actually finished in 2007 but released by HBO around early 09.

I knew all this before the documentary is the point I was trying to make. I'm sure you'll take my word that I didn't get an advanced preview.


I don't think you'll ever find your N claim on tape, at least I haven't.

:lol:

Are you really, really trying to dispute that Ali called Frazier ******?


You challenged and I failed? Right. First of all it's time to show examples when we can't even agree on the level of things Ali said to Joe. Maybe because there's controversy on this, but in terms of public record you're extended this. Even the terribly slated Thrilla doc didn't mention Ali calling Frazier the N word.

:lol:

You are. Listen. I've given you a start here. There are loads of references for you to pursue. I'll leave you to it.

For your part, you've shown nothing. Nothing. No referenced quotes at all, nothing. You're making claims that are absolutely not backed in any way - just your opinions, many of which have already been proven incorrect, with me half way through your post.

He called Floyd an uncle tom once? Are you serious with trying to downplay every other thing.

Actually, in pursuing some of the ****** references that you've claimed didn't exsist I found a second reference to Ali calling Patterson Uncle Tom. I am absolutley satisfied that Ali was far harder on Frazier than Patterson.

Ali proved hate against Terrel. He was spiteful and had a mean streak about him and the fight was highly criticized. That is easily the first display of Ali's anger and hate. If Ali had trouble with other fighters he would have said the same ol "If you back him you're an uncle tom" had he had any trouble with them... but he didn't.

I don't understand this. You seem to be saying that because Ali hated Terrell first it's impossible for him to later hate Frazier?

This is what you don't get. Ali had a rivarly with Joe. The first man to beat him. There was media, there was attention, there was 3 fights. Ali had a chance to do a whole lot and maybe disliked Joe for beating him.

You've conceeded here that Ali disliked Frazier. Why? Because he called him a ******? Because he called him an Uncle Tom? Because he called him a gorrilla? Because he hounded him in the press? Because he continued to attack him publicly after Frazier began to recieve death threats? Because he theatened him with a firearm? Because he called him ugly?

Personally, I don't see hate if you look within at the things he says and how he does it. Show me anything Ali does to Joe or say to Joe without it looking like clowning.

I don't think there's anything "clowing" about twisting the build up to a sporting contest into a "race war" or phrases like "Uncle Tom's ******". You seem to. You also seem to think that he didn't call Frazier a ****** :lol:

If you can't see it or you can't see how it's Ali then you don't know Ali.

It's absolutley clear that I know Ali better than you, or better than you are pretending to know him. That you have "studied" the fight and never came across the n-word is astonishing to me.

You said Ali clearly hated Joe. I don't believe that.

No, you've said it is a "fact" that Ali DIDN'T hate Joe then backed it with opinions which are not at all well informed.

No you don't. More presumptious, no surprise coming from McGrain.

My repuation for objectivity is absolutley secure on this forum.

I explained the circumstance of Manilla. Press was always all over. Now you think Ali purposely went out of his wat when the press wasn't present to do this sort of thing? Nonsense.

This incident is famous specifically because there was no press present. That is why it has been repeatedly re-told. Or maybe not. Maybe there was press there. Loads of it. But that's not the way i've read the story. Whatever your source is (and you're not great with sources) it's one that doesn't tell the full story.

You're retarded if you can't see within the context of things. I've provided enough examples and facts.

Not one is referenced. It's all heresay. And what you want to believe I think.

You make claims that have can't be backed up by any film.

:lol::nut

You haven't backed up ANYTHING you've said in ANY way!

.

-- By the way I'm just as much an Ali fan as a Frazier fan. Just calling it truthfully.

Most of what you have said is incorrect.

All of it is coloured by blindness.

You don't even know that Ali called Frazier a ******.

I think the idea that you are telling it "truthfully" is unlikely.

[Bill Butcher]

i've noticed all the fighters that still called ali CLAY he wanted to embarass - patterson, terrell, bonavena and frazier all called him CLAY.

Yep, very true.... & they all did pay in some way.

[Bill Butcher]

Dont think it really matters if Ali called Frazier a ****** or not, loads of black guys call each other that without it meaning anything bad, its no big deal I wouldnt think.

[McGrain]

I don't believe Ali hated Joe Frazier.

With Ali, it was all about narcissism, showmanship. The inarticulate Frazier was a perfect foil.

Ali simply, gleefully, crossed the line time and again with Joe. It was utter stupidity to disrespect such a decent man as Frazier that way. Since kindergarten, we sometimes come across someone who just seems irresistibly vulnerable to taunting. Joe had helped Ali before their first meeting. It was delicious justice that Ali paid at FOTC.

But hate? I don't see it. I am confident anyone who knows Ali would reject the notion. He didn't even express hatred after being stripped of his title. In his way, Ali was a religious man. After taking his lumps at FOTC, the very moment to show hatred at his conqueror, Ali gave Frazier credit and spoke of redemption, but never hatred. Why should he have harbored hatred years later in Manila of a man he had taken revenge from, who had been turned into a basketball by a monster he had since slain, and was by then seen as nonthreatening?

I see utter stupidity, not hatred, from Ali.


That's a decent post.

I think that Ali's "utter stupidity" is more pathalogical than you do...i think it's driven by a more fundamental emotion, I don't think stupidity alone can explain this level of vitriol. But maybe that type of stupidity does exsist - after all, most racism is born of a combination of fear and ignorance. Ali's "white-******" might be a ghost of that condition.

[McGrain]

Dont think it really matters if Ali called Frazier a ****** or not, loads of black guys call each other that without it meaning anything bad, its no big deal I wouldnt think.

Well of course it matters in understanding the situation properly. But what you say some truth.

It matters even more if you are talking to a guy who pretends to be an expert on the background of the fight but thinks the word was never used.

[redrooster]

Ali-Frazier 1

[PetethePrince]

It is absolutley astonishing to me that you have managed to hear "read, and seen so much" without coming across this, in fact I don't believe you.

Cool

Ghosts of Manilla p25 - "Can you believe that country ******?"

Ghosts of Manilla, p126 - "Joe Frazier is a little old ****** boy who ain't been anywhere 'cept Philly, never done nothing."

Frontline: Snapshots of History, p184 - "That ****** has taken to many to the head."

The Greatest Boxing Stories Ever Told p303 - "I'm gonna put a whippin on that ******'s head."

So books reference it. I wonder who was there to report this or here this. This is not documented on film. I haven't read any books on the rivalry specifically as there is little need to.

Could you show anything on film of him saying this? Because really, as it stands on film Ali just called Joe a gorilla. And he named tons of different fighters different animals. I understand the racial implication, but why does that mean Ali was saying purely out of racist bigotry? That doesn't really make much sense if you think it. He could have been much more creative. And besides, Ali downed Joe not for being black but for being the white champion. I genuine think he thought Joe looked like a gorilla. He went through all the stuffed animals and statues to prove that. Not to just be racist towards his own race. :nut



You really, really believe that you can excuse Ali's calling Frazier a "gorrilla" - a racially charged name born of dehumanising coverage as far back as the 1800's but rarely encountered in boxing post 50's - by claiming that "Ali really thought that"? Are you kidding? That's genuinely shocking. Ali was just being fun? Calling him a gorrilla because he looked like one?

Yep. I seem to know understand Ali better than you. Is it possible that Ali was trying to dehumanize Joe but calling him a gorilla? Sure... is it possible he may have actually thought Joe looked like one? Absolutely... is it possible he called Joe just to dehumanize him and didn't think he looked like? I suppose, but Ali's clowning was generally through honesty.

And that validates the question. If it's ok to call Ali a gorilla because he looks like one, is it also ok to call him a ****** if he looks like one? To Ali?

No, is it okay to call Patterson an uncle tom? Patterson the white man's champ? Liston a bear? George a mummy? I mean really, we can go down the whole line. And this isn't about what's right or not it's about Ali on his hatred... or should I say non-hatred of Joe.



I have no interest in your opinion of my article.

I have no interest of your opinion of my opinion on your article. Nobody likes a jackass.

I posted it because in a fit of hysteria you seemed to be inferring that I was drawing all my information from a documentary. My knowledge of the rivalry - far more complete than yours if you have genuinely NEVER come across the word ****** used by Ali about Frazier - is drawn from books, film, newspaper articles, not an HBO documentary.

:good Pat yourself on the back.





Are you really, really trying to dispute that Ali called Frazier ******?

He could have called everyone the N word in the privacy of his home for all I know. But openly in the press? In the 74 Parkinson's show Ali talks about how he didn't call Joe the N word and how he called him an Uncle Tom... and he said it he did because he was.


For your part, you've shown nothing. Nothing. No referenced quotes at all, nothing. You're making claims that are absolutely not backed in any way - just your opinions, many of which have already been proven incorrect, with me half way through your post.

I'm said many facts and many opinions based off of my knowledge on the subject. You hadn't sourced anything till this post. I gave you f*cking quotes for God sakes and I haven't presented any facts. I've even presented FACTS that Ali said he didn't hate Joe frazier leading up to the Thrilla and later on in his life. I've stated Dundee has and others around Ali have said the same. You want me to start citing now? I'm not going to site for an indecent jackass like you eitherway.



Actually, in pursuing some of the ****** references that you've claimed didn't exsist I found a second reference to Ali calling Patterson Uncle Tom. I am absolutley satisfied that Ali was far harder on Frazier than Patterson.

This how I now know you have so much trouble comprehending, using logic, and analyzing data, information, and knowledge. I never even implied that Ali was harder on Patterson than Frazier. I did imply that Ali was hard on a lot of people and did admit he was harder on Frazier for LOGICAL reasons you're either willing to accept or ignore. It's pretty much your call. However, Ali didn't them nor Joe.


I don't understand this. You seem to be saying that because Ali hated Terrell first it's impossible for him to later hate Frazier?

No, critical thinking 101.

Ali was spiteful with Terrel. Punished him, verbally abused him. And never did it after or before or laugh. Watch any tape. He gets upset, now, and whether that's an act or not who knows. I'm sure he was fine afterwards. In the ring he seems pissed. Ali never got that angry with Joe it seemed. Why? Probably because he didn't hate him. Did he respect Joe? I don't think so... not until after their fights.



You've conceeded here that Ali disliked Frazier. Why? Because he called him a ******? Because he called him an Uncle Tom? Because he called him a gorrilla? Because he hounded him in the press? Because he continued to attack him publicly after Frazier began to recieve death threats? Because he theatened him with a firearm? Because he called him ugly?

You don't know if Ali knew of those death threats. Threatened him with a firearm? GTFO. I'm done with you, you're a joke.


I don't think there's anything "clowing" about twisting the build up to a sporting contest into a "race war" or phrases like "Uncle Tom's ******". You seem to. You also seem to think that he didn't call Frazier a ****** :lol:

Prove it on film. He could have called dozens of other fighters the same. Even if he did, it doesn't prove he hated him. And you're starting to get mad because you can't prove that. Your worthless subjective opinion is meaningless and all your citing doesn't do shit in terms of what's the truth. Wake up and go outside the world. If you think a black calling another a black the N word is bad then you need to get out more. Publically it's another level. But he never did it publically as far as I've known.



It's absolutley clear that I know Ali better than you, or better than you are pretending to know him. That you have "studied" the fight and never came across the n-word is astonishing to me.

No you don't. You thought he was threatening Joe with a firearm. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:



No, you've said it is a "fact" that Ali DIDN'T hate Joe then backed it with opinions which are not at all well informed.

I was being satirical dimwit. Your inferencing skills are for shit.



My repuation for objectivity is absolutley secure on this forum.

I'm sure it is Mr. 25000 + posts.


This incident is famous specifically because there was no press present. That is why it has been repeatedly re-told. Or maybe not. Maybe there was press there. Loads of it. But that's not the way i've read the story. Whatever your source is (and you're not great with sources) it's one that doesn't tell the full story.

My source is from the Thrilla documentary. I don't know how you know or come to the conclusions that Ali knew the press wasn't going to be there. I feel the documentary made something of that. "Press wasn't there. Clear it wasn't for publicity." Maybe he was doing it to get under Frazier's skin anyway? Does that matter? The lady that was with Joe for the course of Manilla and throughout his career was so suprised when saw no press. "Cameras were all over your face right when you stepped out of the door. Where was everyone, where was the press." Whether Ali knew that there was no coverage that day is unknown. Knowing Ali and how he loves to be like that in front of the camera I bet he would prefer that. However, knowing he likes to clown with Joe it wouldn't matter.

Ali's guide from Manilla said that Ali said, "Brotha (Referring to him), he liked to call me brotha. He said brotha, let's go mess with Joe Frazier. Come on." And that's basically the beginning of that incidence according to him. Doesn't sound spiteful or hatred filled at all. It's on the same documentary.



Not one is referenced. It's all heresay. And what you want to believe I think.
:lol::nut

You haven't backed up ANYTHING you've said in ANY way!

Referenced. I'm not writing an essay. It's backed, it's just not cited. Do you want me to site previous quotes/statements? I don't feel you're worth wasting time over at this point.


Most of what you have said is incorrect.

False

All of it is coloured by blindness.

You British? Things are becoming clearer now.

You don't even know that Ali called Frazier a ******.

According to Parkinson he didn't. You thought Ali was threatening Joe with a firearm. At least I can fucking deduce the information I digest.

I think the idea that you are telling it "truthfully" is unlikely.

If the things I have said are incorrect than it shouldn't be "unlikely" that the thing I've said are truthful, it should be known. Just trapped you in your own logic.

[OBCboxer]

Cool

[i]

So books reference it. I wonder who was there to report this or here this. This is not documented on film. I haven't read any books on the rivalry specifically as there is little need to.

Could you show anything on film of him saying this? Because really, as it stands on film Ali just called Joe a gorilla. And he named tons of different fighters different animals. I understand the racial implication, but why does that mean Ali was saying purely out of racist bigotry? That doesn't really make much sense if you think it. He could have been much more creative. And besides, Ali downed Joe not for being black but for being the white champion. I genuine think he thought Joe looked like a gorilla. He went through all the stuffed animals and statues to prove that. Not to just be racist towards his own race. :nut





Yep. I seem to know understand Ali better than you. Is it possible that Ali was trying to dehumanize Joe but calling him a gorilla? Sure... is it possible he may have actually thought Joe looked like one? Absolutely... is it possible he called Joe just to dehumanize him and didn't think he looked like? I suppose, but Ali's clowning was generally through honesty.



No, is it okay to call Patterson an uncle tom? Patterson the white man's champ? Liston a bear? George a mummy? I mean really, we can go down the whole line. And this isn't about what's right or not it's about Ali on his hatred... or should I say non-hatred of Joe.





I have no interest of your opinion of my opinion on your article. Nobody likes a jackass.

I

:good Pat yourself on the back.







He could have called everyone the N word in the privacy of his home for all I know. But openly in the press? In the 74 Parkinson's show Ali talks about how he didn't call Joe the N word and how he called him an Uncle Tom... and he said it he did because he was.




I'm said many facts and many opinions based off of my knowledge on the subject. You hadn't sourced anything till this post. I gave you f*cking quotes for God sakes and I haven't presented any facts. I've even presented FACTS that Ali said he didn't hate Joe frazier leading up to the Thrilla and later on in his life. I've stated Dundee has and others around Ali have said the same. You want me to start citing now? I'm not going to site for an indecent jackass like you eitherway.





This how I now know you have so much trouble comprehending, using logic, and analyzing data, information, and knowledge. I never even implied that Ali was harder on Patterson than Frazier. I did imply that Ali was hard on a lot of people and did admit he was harder on Frazier for LOGICAL reasons you're either willing to accept or ignore. It's pretty much your call. However, Ali didn't them nor Joe.




No, critical thinking 101.

Ali was spiteful with Terrel. Punished him, verbally abused him. And never did it after or before or laugh. Watch any tape. He gets upset, now, and whether that's an act or not who knows. I'm sure he was fine afterwards. In the ring he seems pissed. Ali never got that angry with Joe it seemed. Why? Probably because he didn't hate him. Did he respect Joe? I don't think so... not until after their fights.





You don't know if Ali knew of those death threats. Threatened him with a firearm? GTFO. I'm done with you, you're a joke.




Prove it on film. He could have called dozens of other fighters the same. Even if he did, it doesn't prove he hated him. And you're starting to get mad because you can't prove that. Your worthless subjective opinion is meaningless and all your citing doesn't do shit in terms of what's the truth. Wake up and go outside the world. If you think a black calling another a black the N word is bad then you need to get out more. Publically it's another level. But he never did it publically as far as I've known.





No you don't. You thought he was threatening Joe with a firearm. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:





I was being satirical dimwit. Your inferencing skills are for shit.





I'm sure it is Mr. 25000 + posts.




My source is from the Thrilla documentary. I don't know how you know or come to the conclusions that Ali knew the press wasn't going to be there. I feel the documentary made something of that. "Press wasn't there. Clear it wasn't for publicity." Maybe he was doing it to get under Frazier's skin anyway? Does that matter? The lady that was with Joe for the course of Manilla and throughout his career was so suprised when saw no press. "Cameras were all over your face right when you stepped out of the door. Where was everyone, where was the press." Whether Ali knew that there was no coverage that day is unknown. Knowing Ali and how he loves to be like that in front of the camera I bet he would prefer that. However, knowing he likes to clown with Joe it wouldn't matter.

Ali's guide from Manilla said that Ali said, "Brotha (Referring to him), he liked to call me brotha. He said brotha, let's go mess with Joe Frazier. Come on." And that's basically the beginning of that incidence according to him. Doesn't sound spiteful or hatred filled at all. It's on the same documentary.





Referenced. I'm not writing an essay. It's backed, it's just not cited. Do you want me to site previous quotes/statements? I don't feel you're worth wasting time over at this point.




False



You British? Things are becoming clearer now.



According to Parkinson he didn't. You thought Ali was threatening Joe with a firearm. At least I can fucking deduce the information I digest.



If the things I have said are incorrect than it shouldn't be "unlikely" that the thing I've said are truthful, it should be known. Just trapped you in your own logic.

It really baffles me how you deny fact. The man just gave you quotes from Ali which are pretty well known and documented; and yet that's still not good enough. I known that I have watched many documentaries on their rivalry and I know that what McGrain said is fact. You have a totally false persepctive on this topic.

[PetethePrince]

Ali the clown.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

1:16



I think Ali was worse to Frazier up until FOTC, personally. I think he was most hostile then. I also think as he got older he matured more. Before FOTC he mimicked him calling him "dumb" and doing an impersonation of him clearly to belittle him. I think the set up was perfect. The contrast in styles, in what they represented partly on how Ali panned that out. Ali was very confident and he saw the scene with a champion who hadn't beat him. So he knew a perfect situation he could make out of it. Publicly, and financially and as a stage for a fight.

Ali on Parkinson's in 1974.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Around 6 minutes in. Ali says he never called Joe the N word. Is he lieing?

[PetethePrince]

It really baffles me how you deny fact. The man just gave you quotes from Ali which are pretty well known and documented; and yet that's still not good enough. I known that I have watched many documentaries on their rivalry and I know that what McGrain said is fact. You have a totally false persepctive on this topic.

What facts have I denied? All that I have denied is that I've yet to see that on film. What I have seen on film is Ali saying otherwise.

How is my perspective the false one? Even if I'm slightly mis-informed on specifics how does that make my perspective false? Somewhat of an arrogant thing to say, no? I mean, my perspective is that Ali clowned a lot and even if he went too far (Which he did and I admit) I still don't think he hated Frazier. Tell me now what's so false about that?

Ali said he loved Frazier and didn't hate Frazier constantly. I bet you you can't find him saying that he "hates" Frazier on film. And I can find Ali saying that Frazier is a good guy on film before their 3rd fight. And afterwards.

Dundee said the "kid had no malice and didn't hate Joe" on Ringside Ali and Ringside Top 10 Heavyweights & Ringside Rivarly.

Ali's doctor said he "didn't hate Frazier. It's a 1 sided hate."

But my perspective is false, poor, and wrong? I guess it's just me. But even if we get caught up in the littles of this and that it still doesn't change the foundation of my argument.

And what I do is now is 75-90% of the time Ali clowned on Frazier he was half-laughing while doing so.

[OBCboxer]

What facts have I denied? All that I have denied is that I've yet to see that on film. What I have seen on film is Ali saying otherwise.

How is my perspective the false one? Even if I'm slightly mis-informed on specifics how does that make my perspective false? Somewhat of an arrogant thing to say, no? I mean, my perspective is that Ali clowned a lot and even if he went too far (Which he did and I admit) I still don't think he hated Frazier. Tell me now what's so false about that?

If that's what you think then you need to study up on this topic. I can't help you. I suggest that you watch the Thrilla in Manilla documentary.

[PetethePrince]

If that's what you think then you need to study up on this topic. I can't help you. I suggest that you watch the Thrilla in Manilla documentary.


ROFL I've seen it 10 times and I've cited it as a reference multiple times. Can you please read through the thread before interjecting.

By the way, the documentary is very biased and slanted.

P.S. Sweet new Smokin' Joe avatar

[McGrain]

Could you show anything on film of him saying this? Because really, as it stands on film Ali just called Joe a gorilla.

Listen. EVERY SINGLE writer who has ever dealt seriously with Ali-Frazier has dealt with the n-word question. Writers seek to either beat him with it or justify it. No, I don't have a film of Ali calling Frazier that word. But there have been a HUGE number of lies told about Ali and that word, for no apparent reason, by writers both freindly too, and hostile to, Ali over the years, if Ali never used it in reference to Frazier, in public.

I understand the racial implication, but why does that mean Ali was saying purely out of racist bigotry?

When you tag this word onto "White Man's" it takes on a deeply bigoted tone. The way Ali used the word with Frazier was unique.

Not to just be racist towards his own race. :nut

I think it's pretty obvious that Ali wasn't being racist to his own race.

But he tried to label Frazier a "house-******", a black man subjugated by the white man.





Yep. I seem to know understand Ali better than you.

Without ever hearing that he used racist language? I'm afraid it shows you are very, very narrowly read as regards Ali.

Is it possible that Ali was trying to dehumanize Joe but calling him a gorilla? Sure... is it possible he may have actually thought Joe looked like one? Absolutely... is it possible he called Joe just to dehumanize him and didn't think he looked like? I suppose, but Ali's clowning was generally through honesty.

So Ali's honest clowing possibly encompassed dehumanizing a fellow black male? Do you understand that this is contradictory?



No, is it okay to call Patterson an uncle tom? Patterson the white man's champ? Liston a bear? George a mummy? I mean really, we can go down the whole line. And this isn't about what's right or not it's about Ali on his hatred... or should I say non-hatred of Joe.

I think it's fine to call Liston a bear. I think it's wrong to call Patterson an Uncle Tom. That's not hard at all. The further you go "down the line" the more offensive the language gets. At the bottom is his treatement of Joe Frazier.






He could have called everyone the N word in the privacy of his home for all I know. But openly in the press?

It is reported very widely by the press. You are refusing to accept it.


I'm said many facts and many opinions based off of my knowledge on the subject.

Your knowledge on the subject is heavily compromised though, isn't it? I mean you are trying to conduct a discussion upon the relationship between Frazier and Ali and their racial problems but didn't know that Ali used the n-word. Now you are trying to deny that he used the n-word. Because it's not on film.

If you bother to do any research I actually expect you to change your mind about one or two things. If you come to accept that Ali called Frazier this word in this ways it will obviously impact your thinking, with your having been previously unaware of it.




This how I now know you have so much trouble comprehending, using logic, and analyzing data, information, and knowledge. I never even implied that Ali was harder on Patterson than Frazier.

I didn't say that you had implied it. You have mentioned other fighters that Ali was harder on in an attempt to present Ali's relationship with Frazier as normal, for him, no more extreme than these others. I was explaining my position.


Ali was spiteful with Terrel. Punished him, verbally abused him.

Did all of this to JOe.

And never did it after or before or laugh. Watch any tape.

Ali NEVER laughed before or after saying something to or about Terrell?

Ali never got that angry with Joe it seemed.

Yeah, to you, but your information on what happened is very limited.




You don't know if Ali knew of those death threats.

No, I don't. But I know that with the travelling between the two camps and the fact that the death threats for the first fight were widely reported afterwards, I think it's extremely likely. Ali was very heavliy involved with Frazier, after all.






Prove it on film.

I have proven it, to the satisfcation of almost every poster on this site. I have never, ever run into a poster who is presented with multiple sources confirming a well known and generally accepted fact and still tried to dispute it. It's very odd.

Your worthless subjective opinion is meaningless and all your citing doesn't do shit in terms of what's the truth.

My opinin is not subjective. It is described by popular understanding and backed by multiple sources. Which, by the way, were picked at random from many, many more.

Wake up and go outside the world. If you think a black calling another a black the N word is bad then you need to get out more.

If you can't see the difference between the bantering word and attatching it to phrases like "white man's ******, I think it is you yourself that needs to "get out more".

One would be considered banter between two black men. The other would not.

Regardless, I haven't offered it as proof that Ali hated Frazier only. I've also offered it as proof that he USED the word. Which, somehow, you are still disputing.

Publically it's another level. But he never did it publically as far as I've known.

He used it publicly. If he didn't, the public would be less likely to know about it. Which they do.



No you don't. You thought he was threatening Joe with a firearm. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

In post #65 you yourself refer to "the firearm incident". Your own words. You have made exactly the same "terrible mistake" as me.

Of course, it was a firearm. An unloaded one. I don't really know what you are laughing at.



My source is from the Thrilla documentary. I don't know how you know or come to the conclusions that Ali knew the press wasn't going to be there

...well he would have known they weren't there because they weren't there. I'm not saying he went there in an effort to dodge the press, i'm pointing out his behaviour in spite of the fact that no press were there, supposedly.

But it's a moot point, really.


You British? Things are becoming clearer now.

I think...i think that this is a racist remark ;)



According to Parkinson he didn't.

The chat show host? :lol:

You thought Ali was threatening Joe with a firearm. At least I can fucking deduce the information I digest.

You've intrigued me with this. First of all, you'v refered to it as a firearm incident. Secondly, do you think it wasn't a firearm?

"Ali grabbed the security guard's GUN and clicked of several rounds up at Frazier; hotel guards don't carry live ammo."

Do you think firearm and gun are different?



If the things I have said are incorrect than it shouldn't be "unlikely" that the thing I've said are truthful, it should be known. Just trapped you in your own logic.

:lol:

Well done!

[OBCboxer]

ROFL I've seen it 10 times and I've cited it as a reference multiple times. Can you please read through the thread before interjecting.

By the way, the documentary is very biased and slanted.

P.S. Sweet new Smokin' Joe avatar

Can you please do your research before posting? The facts are there and you have failed to recognize them. You just choose to not to do any research and deny the facts while saying you're right when you clearly aren't. BTW, it shows how disgusting Ali acted towards Frazier.

[McGrain]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Around 6 minutes in. Ali says he never called Joe the N word. Is he lieing?


Yes, he is lying.

According to dozens of sources.

[McGrain]

What facts have I denied? All that I have denied is that I've yet to see that on film. What I have seen on film is Ali saying otherwise.

How is my perspective the false one? Even if I'm slightly mis-informed on specifics how does that make my perspective false?.

Well at the very least you are ill-informed and so your opinion is of limited value.

This obsession you have with having what a fighter SAID on film is enitrely unique to you in my experience and not at all reasonable.

[Bill Butcher]

Ali the clown.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

1:16



I think Ali was worse to Frazier up until FOTC, personally. I think he was most hostile then. I also think as he got older he matured more. Before FOTC he mimicked him calling him "dumb" and doing an impersonation of him clearly to belittle him. I think the set up was perfect. The contrast in styles, in what they represented partly on how Ali panned that out. Ali was very confident and he saw the scene with a champion who hadn't beat him. So he knew a perfect situation he could make out of it. Publicly, and financially and as a stage for a fight.

Ali on Parkinson's in 1974.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Around 6 minutes in. Ali says he never called Joe the N word. Is he lieing?

:lol:

Brilliant, you cant beat an Ali interview, pure entertainment. :good

[McGrain]

:lol:

Brilliant, you cant beat an Ali interview

You could with a fight!

[PetethePrince]

Listen. EVERY SINGLE writer who has ever dealt seriously with Ali-Frazier has dealt with the n-word question. Writers seek to either beat him with it or justify it. No, I don't have a film of Ali calling Frazier that word. But there have been a HUGE number of lies told about Ali and that word, for no apparent reason, by writers both freindly too, and hostile to, Ali over the years, if Ali never used it in reference to Frazier, in public.

Okay, going to concede the N word. Not conceding the point.



When you tag this word onto "White Man's" it takes on a deeply bigoted tone. The way Ali used the word with Frazier was unique.



I think it's pretty obvious that Ali wasn't being racist to his own race.

But he tried to label Frazier a "house-******", a black man subjugated by the white man.

It's not right. He did the same toward Patterson and Terrel. Yes, he was harshest to Frazier. Did Ali hate Patterson? Terrel? Frazier? All, or just Frazier? Or did Ali go too far in his ways/religious conviction?


Without ever hearing that he used racist language? I'm afraid it shows you are very, very narrowly read as regards Ali.

That's quite an assumption. I know tons on Ali, read tons of biographies, autobiographies and film. The N word must be specifically on the book between their bouts. So you know more regarding Ali and Frazier fuel. That's fine, I don't blame Ali for not mentioning in his autobiography.



So Ali's honest clowing possibly encompassed dehumanizing a fellow black male? Do you understand that this is contradictory?

How is it contradictory? It's clowning, and clowning can be cruel. It's honest to Ali because Ali although going too far still jokes about certain things in regards to what he may think. It's kind of like trying to be funny out of a situation that someone believes in in regards to someone else.





I think it's fine to call Liston a bear. I think it's wrong to call Patterson an Uncle Tom. That's not hard at all. The further you go "down the line" the more offensive the language gets. At the bottom is his treatement of Joe Frazier.

But do you think Joe called Joe Frazier solely to degrade him as being inferior or what have you. Why call Liston a bear or Patterson a rabbit? I'm not saying it's right, but I do think Ali thought Joe resembled a gorilla... for whatever it's worth.




Your knowledge on the subject is heavily compromised though, isn't it?

I haven't read any books on it. I know what Ali said, others said, and I know the press of it all.

I mean you are trying to conduct a discussion upon the relationship between Frazier and Ali and their racial problems but didn't know that Ali used the n-word. Now you are trying to deny that he used the n-word. Because it's not on film.

So one example and that makes me out of the picture. Makes all the knowledge I do have invalid?

If you bother to do any research I actually expect you to change your mind about one or two things. If you come to accept that Ali called Frazier this word in this ways it will obviously impact your thinking, with your having been previously unaware of it.

But, is there any proof he didn't use this word towards Patterson or Terrel. I don't doubt it now hearing what he called Joe.



I didn't say that you had implied it. You have mentioned other fighters that Ali was harder on in an attempt to present Ali's relationship with Frazier as normal, for him, no more extreme than these others. I was explaining my position.

It's more extreme. But the circumstance was unique and that would obviously add fuel to it. I mean, Ali beat him and Ali was "holding his belt" place Ali saw what he represented. It's a Patterson X3 due to style, personality, representation, and circumstance in Ali's mind. You have to acknowledge this, too.

Did all of this to JOe.

On film, I see nothing but seething anger. From the pre-fight to fight. He seems upset. With Joe he can call him a gorilla or what not and laugh about it. See the difference?

Ali NEVER laughed before or after saying something to or about Terrell?

Not as much when he was clowning with Joe, that's for sure.


No, I don't. But I know that with the travelling between the two camps and the fact that the death threats for the first fight were widely reported afterwards, I think it's extremely likely. Ali was very heavliy involved with Frazier, after all.

So you think Ali knew of the death threats and kept it going despite knowing this threatened Frazier's family? This is a big thing to say, and basically that's what you're saying. I want a yes or no answer on this. Because really, this assumption is unfavorably to Ali's already controversial character.


My opinin is not subjective.

So your opinion that Ali hates Joe is not subjective? That's what we are getting at. Don't get too caught up into one specific.

If you can't see the difference between the bantering word and attatching it to phrases like "white man's ******, I think it is you yourself that needs to "get out more".

Bantering? As for the second one, yes that is worse.

One would be considered banter between two black men. The other would not.

That's all in how you perceive/handle things. I've heard blacks say it jokingly and then more cruely. Most of the time no fight happens or no one gets legitimiately upset. In few times it can bother some more than others. That's normal. The "banter" is how you handle it.


He used it publicly. If he didn't, the public would be less likely to know about it. Which they do.

Could you point me to some online source/text just out of curoisity.


In post #65 you yourself refer to "the firearm incident". Your own words. You have made exactly the same "terrible mistake" as me.

Of course, it was a firearm. An unloaded one. I don't really know what you are laughing at.

You honestly, geniunely think Ali was threatening Joe with a firearm? :lol: Come on man. I refer to it as an incident because everything is an incident. You said threatening Ali with a firearm. As if he was actually going to kill him before the fight or something. :lol: Come on this sort of reasoning is worse than missing the N word which is something that you can never find on film. But I'm not going to harp on this and try to tear down the oppositions cause just because of this one line.





...well he would have known they weren't there because they weren't there. I'm not saying he went there in an effort to dodge the press, i'm pointing out his behaviour in spite of the fact that no press were there, supposedly.

But it's a moot point, really.

It's only a moot point if you don't try to slant it like you have as some sort of sick way of Ali trying to berate Joe because he hates them.




I think...i think that this is a racist remark ;)

Good thing Britian isn't a race :lol:. I was asking because culturally I can understand how there may be some differences between somethings. That's all... and that could alter our perspective/outlook on things.


The chat show host? :lol:

No, the disease.

You've intrigued me with this. First of all, you'v refered to it as a firearm incident. Secondly, do you think it wasn't a firearm?

"Ali grabbed the security guard's GUN and clicked of several rounds up at Frazier; hotel guards don't carry live ammo."

Do you think firearm and gun are different?

Oh boy, you are confused. Ok, as George Carlin would say. Everything is an incident. Much like everything is a situation. When police respond to an emergance, they're responding to an emergency situation because everything is a situation. The situation/incident label is generally repetive, in this case it wasn't (How else could I describe it). I do think it was a firearm. I don't think Ali was threatening Joe with it. Of course, it was Ali stepping over the line like usual. But he wasn't out to kill Joe. I gave you the quote. "Let's go mess with Joe Frazier." He didn't say "Let's go harrass Joe Frazier and hold hostage everyone in the room." He wasn't threatening him.

:lol:

Well done!

Thank you.

[PetethePrince]

Can you please do your research before posting? The facts are there and you have failed to recognize them. You just choose to not to do any research and deny the facts while saying you're right when you clearly aren't. BTW, it shows how disgusting Ali acted towards Frazier.

I guess watching the Thrilla isn't good enough then. What else do you got recommend since that was your "source." Seriously, I should've just told you to do more research when you claimed Frazier had superior stamina to Marciano.

I'm not trying to justify how Ali acted towards Frazier. Can you? I can't justify half the things he did with other fighters. Ali was a unique character, very lively and entertaining. You get the good with the bad and people loved him for his antics and fighting skill/athletic ability. He was a poet, a rapper, and the GOAT heavyweight. Now, he did some wrong... lots of wrong. Did some wrong to some people. Did Muhammad Ali hate Joe Frazier? No, I don't think so. OCD is it a fact? No, so why does my research all of a sudden change this position.

All of a sudden I'm ignorant on the whole case because one fact I missed. Jeez, this tells you how much you guys must be holding to a string on this one. Hey OCD, if the Thrilla documentary is your best source recommendation I bet I know more regarding the Ali vs Frazier rivarly/fued.

And how can I be wrong? The main argument is that Ali either hated or didn't hate Frazier. Unless someone had Ali on a lie detector test sometime in his life we can never really know. Disputing the specifics doesn't make me wrong on the subject line. Thank you, have a good day.

[OBCboxer]

I guess watching the Thrilla isn't good enough then. What else do you got recommend since that was your "source." Seriously, I should've just told you to do more research when you claimed Frazier had superior stamina to Marciano.

Watching the actual fight isn't good enough no. Watch the documentary and do your research before you post. Frazier-Marciano was a debateable subject and I wasn't the only one on Frazier's side. But that's beside the point and has nothing to do with this thread and I am done discussing that.

I'm not trying to justify how Ali acted towards Frazier. Can you? I can't justify half the things he did with other fighters. Ali was a unique character, very lively and entertaining. You get the good with the bad and people loved him for his antics and fighting skill/athletic ability. He was a poet, a rapper, and the GOAT heavyweight. Now, he did some wrong... lots of wrong. Did some wrong to some people. Did Muhammad Ali hate Joe Frazier? No, I don't think so. OCD is it a fact? No, so why does my research all of a sudden change this position.

He hated Frazier. You just keep denying facts in which another poster posted. Please, have some maturity, research and then admit you were in the wrong.

All of a sudden I'm ignorant on the whole case because one fact I missed. Jeez, this tells you how much you guys must be holding to a string on this one. Hey OCD, if the Thrilla documentary is your best source recommendation I bet I know more regarding the Ali vs Frazier rivarly/fued.

OCD? Get the fuck outta here. You've resorted to making fun of a screen name on a forum FFS! Real mature. I really think you don't when you don't know of Ali calling Frazier a gorrila, Uncle Tom and a N*****. You are also talking to probably the biggest Frazier fan on the forum along with round15 and MarcianoFrazier so I really think you don't. You're being very ignorant when you can't admit you're wrong.

And how can I be wrong? The main argument is that Ali either hated or didn't hate Frazier. Unless someone had Ali on a lie detector test sometime in his life we can never really know. Disputing the specifics doesn't make me wrong on the subject line. Thank you, have a good day.

The subject is heavily reported. Just because it's not on film doesn't mean it's not true. Very naive.

[PetethePrince]

Watching the actual fight isn't good enough no. Watch the documentary and do your research before you post. Frazier-Marciano was a debateable subject and I wasn't the only one on Frazier's side. But that's beside the point and has nothing to do with this thread and I am done discussing that.

I told you. I've watched the documentary like 10 times. In fact, I have it on my computer and I used as a source for some of my post. So I guess you disagree with McGrain that I haven't been all subjective since I've used that as an actual reference.



He hated Frazier. You just keep denying facts in which another poster posted. Please, have some maturity, research and then admit you were in the wrong. I concede the N word. Can you read up on the thread before making yourself look bad? Besides, you have referenced nothing and if you were in this thread I doubt you would make those claims because you either didn't know or wouldn't have an actual reference to it. Facts, are plural. So what "facts" have I denied?



OCD? Get the fuck outta here. You've resorted to making fun of a screen name on a forum FFS! Real mature. I really think you don't when you don't know of Ali calling Frazier a gorrila, Uncle Tom and a N*****. You are also talking to probably the biggest Frazier fan on the forum along with round15 and MarcianoFrazier so I really think you don't. You're being very ignorant when you can't admit you're wrong.

I actually thought your name was OCDboxer. My bad. What are you talking about? I said Ali called him a gorilla and an uncle tom? Dude, I know more on this subject than you... stop talking out of your ass. You're ignorant for jumping in a thread when you have no idea what's going on.

The subject is heavily reported. Just because it's not on film doesn't mean it's not true. Very naive.Whether Ali actually hated Frazier isn't something that can be reported on dipshit. This is something we can never actually know for sure unless we had gotten Ali on a lie detector test. Even though we wouldn't know seeing how flawed and immisable those machines are. Are you even reading what's going on in the thread? Am I in a twilight zone here or something?And yes, I know you're a huge Frazier fan. You must be seeing as you take everything I would say for one fighter as being better than him at something as me "knocking" or "insulting" him. You think he beats Tyson in his prime, you think he has more power, stamina, and chin than Marciano. :lol: I know you're a fan. You must be to actually believe all 3 of those points.

[OBCboxer]

I told you. I've watched the documentary like 10 times. In fact, I have it on my computer and I used as a source for some of my post. So I guess you disagree with McGrain that I haven't been all subjective since I've used that as an actual reference.

I'll admit, you have give some subjective statements. Good for you.

I concede the N word. Can you read up on the thread before making yourself look bad? Besides, you have referenced nothing and if you were in this thread I doubt you would make those claims because you either didn't know or wouldn't have an actual reference to it. Facts, are plural. So what "facts" have I denied?

Ali insulted Frazier. He knew about the death threats to Frazier's family and how his kids were being bullied and beaten up. He still persisted. If you "like" someone or don't have any hate for them, you don't do this.



I actually thought your name was OCDboxer. My bad. What are you talking about? I said Ali called him a gorilla and an uncle tom? Dude, I know more on this subject than you... stop talking out of your ass. You're ignorant for jumping in a thread when you have no idea what's going on.

Dud, you don't know more on this subject..... Dude, you never want to admit when you're wrong.... Dude, you're ignorant because you lack the maturity to admit you are wrong.

Whether Ali actually hated Frazier isn't something that can be reported on dipshit. This is something we can never actually know for sure unless we had gotten Ali on a lie detector test. Even though we wouldn't know seeing how flawed and immisable those machines are. Are you even reading what's going on in the thread? Am I in a twilight zone here or something?And yes, I know you're a huge Frazier fan. You must be seeing as you take everything I would say for one fighter as being better than him at something as me "knocking" or "insulting" him. You think he beats Tyson in his prime, you think he has more power, stamina, and chin than Marciano. :lol: I know you're a fan. You must be to actually believe all 3 of those points.

Actually, the reports and actions of Ali suggests that he does, cunt. I have read pretty much every post that responses me and McGrain. I am not the only one that thinks Frazier beats Tyson in his prime, that's debateable, this subject isn't. I never said he had more power or a better chin than Frazier, don't talk out of your ass. I said he has comparable stamina. Atleast that's debateable, this subject isn't.

[PetethePrince]

I'll admit, you have give some subjective statements. Good for you.



Ali insulted Frazier. He knew about the death threats to Frazier's family and how his kids were being bullied and beaten up. He still persisted. If you "like" someone or don't have any hate for them, you don't do this.





Dud, you don't know more on this subject..... Dude, you never want to admit when you're wrong.... Dude, you're ignorant because you lack the maturity to admit you are wrong.



Actually, the reports and actions of Ali suggests that he does, cunt. I have read pretty much every post that responses me and McGrain. I am not the only one that thinks Frazier beats Tyson in his prime, that's debateable, this subject isn't. I never said he had more power or a better chin than Frazier, don't talk out of your ass. I said he has comparable stamina. Atleast that's debateable, this subject isn't.

You said I was wrong ten times. How am I wrong? It's not a fact that Ali hated Joe. It's an opinion. It's subjective and entirely debatable. I'm not wrong, there's nothing to admit. And the only thing I was wrong in I admitted, stop being a dimwit about the entire situation.

I want a source on Ali knowing that his kids were being bullied and knowing the death threats while he persisted. And no, you said he had better stamina. In fact you answered to him having better stamina in the new thread that round 15 made (I believe it was him). Want me to bump it or quote you? You got to be one hell of a jackass to actually argue that something subjective is in fact indisputable. Don't even talk about ignorant.

And where are these "facts" that I denied constantly. I'm still waiting since you've read all the responses (Doubtful since you called me wrong on something that's subjective).

[curly]

FOTC. Seeing that monster left hook decking ali clean was picture perfect

[McGrain]

Okay, going to concede the N word. Not conceding the point.

Well the point was you didn't know that he had used it. Now you do.

It's not right. He did the same toward Patterson and Terrel. Yes, he was harshest to Frazier.

That's another concession. I believe that htis was because he disliked Frazier more than Terrell. You beleive?




So you know more regarding Ali and Frazier fuel. That's fine

Another concession.



How is it contradictory? It's clowning, and clowning can be cruel.

Of course it can be cruel, but dehumanizing, the reduction of another human being's humanity and the verb clowning have no business in the same sentence.






But do you think Joe called Joe Frazier solely to degrade him as being inferior or what have you.

Yes.

Why call Liston a bear or Patterson a rabbit? I'm not saying it's right, but I do think Ali thought Joe resembled a gorilla... for whatever it's worth.

What you are basically saying here is that it is okay to call a black man a gorilla if you think he looks like one. This was very much the thinking in the United States in 1900. It's not now.





I know what Ali said

No you don't! You conceeded that you don't in this post!


So one example and that makes me out of the picture. Makes all the knowledge I do have invalid?

For me, yes, until proven otherwise. This word is all over Ali literature, and is absolutely crucial to the Frazier question. It's impossible to get involved with the material without stumbling all over it! It's everywhere! It really seems odd that someone can claim to be schooled on this issue without having even encountered this basic issue. I'd say that's someone that's watched the Through The Eyes of the World type doc's, seen some fights, and not much else.

But that is absolutley fine. That's plenty for someone to see.

But not if they want to be taken serious on the serious question of how the two felt about each other, and the most serious issues between them, you obviously have to do much more.

It's more extreme. But the circumstance was unique and that would obviously add fuel to it. I mean, Ali beat him and Ali was "holding his belt" place Ali saw what he represented. It's a Patterson X3 due to style, personality, representation, and circumstance in Ali's mind. You have to acknowledge this, too.

I acknowledge it compeltely. It is my position. It's a part of the reason I believe Ali hated Frazier.



On film, I see nothing but seething anger. From the pre-fight to fight. He seems upset. With Joe he can call him a gorilla or what not and laugh about it. See the difference?

The major difference is in the level and intensity of the abuse.

So you think Ali knew of the death threats and kept it going despite knowing this threatened Frazier's family? This is a big thing to say, and basically that's what you're saying. I want a yes or no answer on this. Because really, this assumption is unfavorably to Ali's already controversial character.


I think that the death threats were not kept a secret after the first fight, I think that they were both in the same business, I think it was a very big deal. I think years passed between the first and third fights.

I think you know full well that it was likely Ali knew.



So your opinion that Ali hates Joe is not subjective? That's what we are getting at. Don't get too caught up into one specific.

:lol:

What, don't get specifically involved in the specific point at hand in case you feel like moving the goalposts to encompass the entire argument?



That's all in how you perceive/handle things. I've heard blacks say it jokingly and then more cruely.

You have never, ever heard one black man call another black man "white man's ******" jokingly, and Ali certainly didn't call Joe it, "for a big joke".


You honestly, geniunely think Ali was threatening Joe with a firearm? :lol: Come on man. I refer to it as an incident because everything is an incident. You said threatening Ali with a firearm. As if he was actually going to kill him before the fight or something. :lol: Come on this sort of reasoning is worse than missing the N word which is something that you can never find on film. But I'm not going to harp on this and try to tear down the oppositions cause just because of this one line.

What the same reasoning as the N word which you have now conceeded was absolutley accurate?

Ali picked up a gun. Pointed the gun at him. Pulled the trigger. That's the story. If you don't think that is threatening someone with a gun, that's fine, but the contrary opinion is perfectly reasonable.




It's only a moot point if you don't try to slant it like you have as some sort of sick way of Ali trying to berate Joe because he hates them.


I haven't slanted it in any way. The story goes - Ali had a "firearm incident" with Joe Frazier with no press present. That's the only story i've told. The slant is in your head.


I do think it was a firearm. I don't think Ali was threatening Joe with it. Of course, it was Ali stepping over the line like usual. But he wasn't out to kill Joe. I gave you the quote. "Let's go mess with Joe Frazier." He didn't say "Let's go harrass Joe Frazier and hold hostage everyone in the room." He wasn't threatening him.

I'm not suggesting that Ali went round to hold him hostage. Nobody has said that.

You seem very interested in technical details and the definition of "incident" etc. Pointing at someone with a firearm is threatening them with it. Pulling the trigger? Hmmm.

Anyway, I certainly think it's reasonable to say Ali threatened Frazier with a firearm. I would feel threatened certainly, if someone pointed a gun at me.

[PetethePrince]

Well the point was you didn't know that he had used it. Now you do.

[/size]

That's another concession. I believe that htis was because he disliked Frazier more than Terrell. You beleive?

For short time before the fight and up until the fight I believe Ali hated Terrel. The severe reaction he got caused Ali to maybe reconsider his judgement. I think he disliked Terrel for a time more than he ever disliked/disdained Frazier. How is something a concession when I never said otherwise? I know he was harshest to Frazier, but he was harsh to other fighters.






Of course it can be cruel, but dehumanizing, the reduction of another human being's humanity and the verb clowning have no business in the same sentence. No, Ali dehumanized Patterson when he brought carrots to his training camp. I don't want to get into a semantics battle, but Ali was in clown-mode virtually all pre Thrilla in Manilla. When he said "Come on gorilla we in Manilla" he was holding back has laugh. When they brought the stuffed animal around, he was partly laughing. De-humanizing, I suppose if you look at it in that way... AS you should. However, Ali was clowning, no doubt. You can't really say otherwise seeing all the ploys and stuff he does.


Yes.Well, you can't deny he had fun with it. I never saw him laugh so much while denigating an opponent.

What you are basically saying here is that it is okay to call a black man a gorilla if you think he looks like one. This was very much the thinking in the United States in 1900. It's not now. No, I am not. I'm speaking from what I believe to be Ali's POV on the subject. How did I say it was okay? I just said it wasn't right in the same sentence. Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to myself here...







No you don't! You conceeded that you don't in this post! When responding to OBC on what Ali said. I do, excluding the N word exception. He said I didn't know about the Uncle Tom, Dumb, Gorilla, etc. I mentioned all of these words numerous times. So yes, I did know with that exception. He was basically lieing there.




For me, yes, until proven otherwise. This word is all over Ali literature, and is absolutely crucial to the Frazier question. It's impossible to get involved with the material without stumbling all over it! It's everywhere! It really seems odd that someone can claim to be schooled on this issue without having even encountered this basic issue. I'd say that's someone that's watched the Through The Eyes of the World type doc's, seen some fights, and not much else.

But that is absolutley fine. That's plenty for someone to see.

But not if they want to be taken serious on the serious question of how the two felt about each other, and the most serious issues between them, you obviously have to do much more. Fine, but to me that's almost like me saying for you exaggerations with threatening Joe with a firearm would lead me to believe you were biased on the subject. But I don't label, that's always dangerous and presumptious.


I acknowledge it compeltely. It is my position. It's a part of the reason I believe Ali hated Frazier. So what makes Ali hate Joe is he's the man with his belt and the man who ends up beating him. Am I getting that right because he virtually represents the same as Patterson and I presume you don't think he hated Floyd.

Now Holmes said Ali always joked on the radio show we just had. "After our fight he was just joking and such. Saying I want Holmess again and stuff. He was cool and I learned to not hold grudges or be mad after fights." Very conflicting, eh?



The major difference is in the level and intensity of the abuse.Ah, maybe we can't some resolve here. For me, this shows that Ali did it BECAUSE it bothered Joe. It's look when my cousin used to tease me when I was younger it always upset me. And of course, he teased me the most. Frazier keeps getting burnt and upset and visibly shaken so Ali bantered him out of amusement the most. I think that makes sense? And this is what Ali even says before the Thrilla fight.


I think that the death threats were not kept a secret after the first fight, I think that they were both in the same business, I think it was a very big deal. I think years passed between the first and third fights.

I think you know full well that it was likely Ali knew. Right, but the death threats weren't constant before each bout. Just the 1st. Maybe he found out later?


You have never, ever heard one black man call another black man "white man's ******" jokingly, and Ali certainly didn't call Joe it, "for a big joke". Okay, so would that make me a liar then?


Ali picked up a gun. Pointed the gun at him. Pulled the trigger. That's the story. If you don't think that is threatening someone with a gun, that's fine, but the contrary opinion is perfectly reasonable. Ali picked up the gun and started firing shots in the air. He didn't pick up the gun, point it at Smoking Joe and start shooting it at him. Did he perhaps point out the balcony Joe was on? Sure, did he point and shoot at Joe? No. He just shot up in the air. It's careless, but wasn't a legitimately threatening him.


I haven't slanted it in any way. The story goes - Ali had a "firearm incident" with Joe Frazier with no press present. That's the only story i've told. The slant is in your head. Man you won't even give up ground? Do I really have to go back on how you said something like. "If Ali didn't hate Joe would he point at firearm at Joe with the press not there."

If you would have told it in the quote rather than making your own context so we don't have to badger about whether Ali's intentions where to do it with no press or press or what not. The press part has no bearing on the action for me. Just because the Thrilla doc said otherwise doesn't do anything for me either.

I'm not suggesting that Ali went round to hold him hostage. Nobody has said that. No but you did make claim he "threatened" Joe with the firearm.

You seem very interested in technical details and the definition of "incident" etc. Pointing at someone with a firearm is threatening them with it. Pulling the trigger? Hmmm. So Joe Frazier is dead? :rofl

Anyway, I certainly think it's reasonable to say Ali threatened Frazier with a firearm. I would feel threatened certainly, if someone pointed a gun at me.I wouldn't be threatened if someone pointed a firearm at me, pulled the trigger and I was still perfectly fine! Must mean I was invincible or something... or perhaps holding on to a straw argument :rofl

[McGrain]

For short time before the fight and up until the fight I believe Ali hated Terrel. The severe reaction he got caused Ali to maybe reconsider his judgement. I think he disliked Terrel for a time more than he ever disliked/disdained Frazier. How is something a concession when I never said otherwise? I know he was harshest to Frazier, but he was harsh to other fighters.

Well, you're whole argument seemed to be that Ali treated Terrell more severely than Frazier. Conceeding that was not hte case, and that he was harder on Frazier, seems to hamstring that argument.



No, Ali dehumanized Patterson when he brought carrots to his training camp.

Yes, but by suggesting he was a rabbit rather than a white man's ******. I'm sure you can see the difference.


Well, you can't deny he had fun with it. I never saw him laugh so much while denigating an opponent.

You seem to think that if someone is having fun dehumanising somebody, that this makes it ok. That's just craziness.

No, I am not. I'm speaking from what I believe to be Ali's POV on the subject. How did I say it was okay? I just said it wasn't right in the same sentence. Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to myself here...

So what on earth is your point? That Ali thought Frazier looked like a gorilla and it doesn't make it ok? That seems to suggest that you agree with me that this is the worst type of racism. I don't see how you can see it as anything other than disgusting if you're not parodoning it in some way. It's also some of the most extreme language Ali employed in attacking an opponent.




When responding to OBC on what Ali said. I do, excluding the N word exception. He said I didn't know about the Uncle Tom, Dumb, Gorilla, etc. I mentioned all of these words numerous times. So yes, I did know with that exception. He was basically lieing there.

You don't know what Ali said to Joe Frazier. You don't. And the chances that you missed EVERY single reference to the N word and absolutley nothing else are literally nil, for reasons i've already explained.



Fine, but to me that's almost like me saying for you exaggerations with threatening Joe with a firearm would lead me to believe you were biased on the subject. But I don't label, that's always dangerous and presumptious.

Christ almighty, the man POINTED A GUN AT ANOTHER MAN AND PULLED THE TRIGGER, it's not like that is ANYTHING other than a threat! If you say it's not, I say fine, but don't behave like saying that someone who points a gun at someone else is threatening them is exaggerating! It's ridiculous in the extreme!! You act like there is no case!


So what makes Ali hate Joe is he's the man with his belt and the man who ends up beating him. Am I getting that right because he virtually represents the same as Patterson and I presume you don't think he hated Floyd.

Amongst many other things, yes. You yourself have conceeded that it was "more extreme" for these reasons.

The hairs you are splitting are getting thiner and thiner.


Right, but the death threats weren't constant before each bout. Just the 1st. Maybe he found out later?

Maybe. No way to know. If he didn't find out that Joe's life had been threatened and family had been implicated by the second bout I would be really surprised. I'd say it's almost impossible that it was otherwise, but stranger things have happened.


Okay, so would that make me a liar then?

Again, I'd say it's almost impossible for two friends to use language like that between each other. But stranger things have happened.

Let's put it another way. When two deadly rivals use language like that with each other it's unlikely to be "banter".


Ali picked up the gun and started firing shots in the air. He didn't pick up the gun, point it at Smoking Joe and start shooting it at him. Smoking Joe doesn't even describe Ali shooting the gun. He recalls it by hearing the "Clank, clank." According to the Thrilla doc.

No shots were fired, as I made clear in the original post, "hotel security guards do not carry live rounds".

It's stil threatening behaviour to wave a gun at somebody. I know you would feel threatened if someone you hated appeared and waved a gun at you. I know that.


I wouldn't be threatened if someone pointed a firearm at me, pulled the trigger and I was still perfectly fine! Must mean I was invincible or something... or perhaps holding on to a straw argument :rofl

I think you'll find that it would be the moments before the gun was fired during which you might feel threatened. Or maybe not. Maybe you are super tough.

Anyway, i'd be quite happy to leave the gun alone. You say it is completley unreasonable to presume that someone pointing a gun at another human whilst shouting insults can be said to be acting in a threatening fashion. You say I am ridiculous for feeling that way. I feel you argument is bizarre in the extreme.

[PetethePrince]

Well, you're whole argument seemed to be that Ali treated Terrell more severely than Frazier. Conceeding that was not hte case, and that he was harder on Frazier, seems to hamstring that argument.

The argument was he was meaner towards Terrel. Like a pure mean-streak. Against Frazier he's harsher but Ali's clowning more. Thus, his intentions and what he conveys seems like he hated Terrel more.


Yes, but by suggesting he was a rabbit rather than a white man's ******. I'm sure you can see the difference. Of course, he took it to the next step with Frazier. But again, I thought I explained why he did and my reason is not because of hate.

You seem to think that if someone is having fun dehumanising somebody, that this makes it ok. That's just craziness. No, why do you always make these premature conclusions? It isn't right, but it doesn't seem as spiteful or due to hate.


So what on earth is your point? That Ali thought Frazier looked like a gorilla and it doesn't make it ok? That seems to suggest that you agree with me that this is the worst type of racism. I don't see how you can see it as anything other than disgusting if you're not parodoning it in some way. It's also some of the most extreme language Ali employed in attacking an opponent. I'm not justifying it. It's wrong and there's not much else to it. However, I'm rationalizing from maybe Ali's POV. He named all his opponents. He probably understand the racial implications, but he probably didn't care and didn't want to shy away from that. Just like Patterson was the rabbit. Say now if Rabbit was the worst type of racism, I don't think Ali would shine away from that if he thought Patterson did look or fight like a rabbit... which I think he did. Do you get that argument?


You don't know what Ali said to Joe Frazier. You don't. And the chances that you missed EVERY single reference to the N word and absolutley nothing else are literally nil, for reasons i've already explained. Well OBC couldn't come up with another example. He just used words that I already made the same claim to. If you can think of something I missed, I'm more than happy to hear it.

Christ almighty, the man POINTED A GUN AT ANOTHER MAN AND PULLED THE TRIGGER, it's not like that is ANYTHING other than a threat! If you say it's not, I say fine, but don't behave like saying that someone who points a gun at someone else is threatening them is exaggerating! It's ridiculous in the extreme!! You act like there is no case! I'm not getting into a semantics debate. I can understand how it appears threatening or gets percieved as threatening. If I were Marvis I would think he was threatening us. But if we understood Ali's head I doubt we would think this. Ali didn't point the gun at Joe and pulled the trigger. Otherwise there would be casualties. He probably just shot it at the air. Don't make blanket statements and then get defensive about it, though.




Amongst many other things, yes. You yourself have conceeded that it was "more extreme" for these reasons.

The hairs you are splitting are getting thiner and thiner. Right. I think the circumstance led Ali to shout his mouth off more than he would for another opponent. I think he clowned more with Joe because it got under his skin. That doesn't mean he hates him... the same could've happened if Patterson or some other person was champ at the time holding his best. And that person maybe beats him and ends up not liking him. So Ali fires back to get under him. You have to admit, it's incredibly clear Joe didn't like Ali. The other way around is a lot tougher to determine.




Maybe. No way to know. If he didn't find out that Joe's life had been threatened and family had been implicated by the second bout I would be really surprised. I'd say it's almost impossible that it was otherwise, but stranger things have happened. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying knowing before the 1st fight. The death threats came before the 1st fight. All fight political turmoil and heat dissipated and there were no more death threats for the 2nd or 3rd fight. Ali not knowing before the 1st fight is more likely than not.




Again, I'd say it's almost impossible for two friends to use language like that between each other. But stranger things have happened.

Let's put it another way. When two deadly rivals use language like that with each other it's unlikely to be "banter". I like the new friends angle. It was Joe who thought they were friends. I'm sure Ali just used him as a benefit. And if he was a friend than Ali is a terribly friend. Most likely, Ali didn't see it that way.



No shots were fired, as I made clear in the original post, "hotel security guards do not carry live rounds".

It's stil threatening behaviour to wave a gun at somebody. I know you would feel threatened if someone you hated appeared and waved a gun at you. I know that. Right, I forgot that detail. Makes it even clearer. Yes, I would be threatened if someone pointed a gun at me. I might feel threatened if they were even a friend. But Ali didn't threaten Joe he joked with Joe. How could Ali threaten Joe with no bullets? Maybe Joe felt threatened, but if he possessed zero harm than it's Ali being a clown and not threatening Joe.


I think you'll find that it would be the moments before the gun was fired during which you might feel threatened. Or maybe not. Maybe you are super tough. It was a joke. You said he pointed the gun at Joe and shot it. That must mean Joe was invincible or something. I remember now hearing the narrators voice about the gun having blanks because the hotel didn't care real bullets. That just went over my head.

Anyway, i'd be quite happy to leave the gun alone. You say it is completley unreasonable to presume that someone pointing a gun at another human whilst shouting insults can be said to be acting in a threatening fashion. You say I am ridiculous for feeling that way. I feel you argument is bizarre in the extreme.No, stop with the blanket gross oversimplification statements. You said Ali threatened Joe with a firearm. The gun had zero bullets, and he shoot blanks. Thus, Ali didn't threaten anybody. Not legitimately. Again, don't want to get in semantics. Obviously anyone who had a gun pointed at them would be threatened but that's because they don't know about the no bullet situation. Ali, on the other hand did. So he couldn't have tried to kill Joe with it if he tried. If it's threatening, Joe must've been in some harm. If it's threatening, then Ali must have said something about coming back with real bullets to kill him. Otherwise it's Ali being Ali clowning and always going to the extreme.



As for this whole discussion. I'm done with it really. You think Ali hated Joe, I don't. You're not going to change my mind, I ain't going to change yours. Just seeing Ali in his expression and what others said and he said on the matter makes me think otherwise. Ali has been not only controversial but cruel many times. He at one point believed that all white men where the devil.

[McGrain]

Say now if Rabbit was the worst type of racism,

:lol:

Ali didn't point the gun at Joe and pulled the trigger. Otherwise there would be casualties.

:lol:



Ali didn't threaten Joe he joked with Joe. How could Ali threaten Joe with no bullets?

:lol:


You said he pointed the gun at Joe and shot it. That must mean Joe was invincible or something

:lol:

You said Ali threatened Joe with a firearm. The gun had zero bullets, and he shoot blanks. Thus, Ali didn't threaten anybody.

:lol:

Obviously anyone who had a gun pointed at them would be threatened but that's because they don't know about the no bullet situation.

:lol:

If it's threatening, then Ali must have said something about coming back with real bullets to kill him.

:lol:

Ali has been not only controversial but cruel many times. He at one point believed that all white men where the devil.

:lol:


Needed that.

[OBCboxer]

You said I was wrong ten times. How am I wrong? It's not a fact that Ali hated Joe. It's an opinion. It's subjective and entirely debatable. I'm not wrong, there's nothing to admit. And the only thing I was wrong in I admitted, stop being a dimwit about the entire situation.

I want a source on Ali knowing that his kids were being bullied and knowing the death threats while he persisted. And no, you said he had better stamina. In fact you answered to him having better stamina in the new thread that round 15 made (I believe it was him). Want me to bump it or quote you? You got to be one hell of a jackass to actually argue that something subjective is in fact indisputable. Don't even talk about ignorant.

And where are these "facts" that I denied constantly. I'm still waiting since you've read all the responses (Doubtful since you called me wrong on something that's subjective).

Ali defiently knew this, it was widely reported at the time. How could he not know it? You don't like someone if you keep doind what you are doing when it endangers the lives of others.

Frazier having better stamina than Marciano has no relevance to this thread and I am not talking about it anymore; you're clutching at straws.

Here's an excerpt from an article on some comments from Ali:

Tom Payne, Frazier’s bodyguard for the Fight of the Century, said that he “never saw Joe unnerved [by the death threats]”, but those death threats came in waves. His family was also threatened. Joe Frazier took this knowledge on his six mile runs and into the ring where he beat sparring partners mercilessly. “I don’t think anyone could have beaten me that night,” Joe offered recently, and to the fight plan itself in his autobiography, he said this: “What I would do was pound on his kidneys and spleen.” 300 million people saw Frazier do just that. During the fight Frazier became one of the few men to get the better of Ali in the verbal’s. “Don’t you know I’m God,” Ali offered. “God, you’re in the wrong place tonight. I’m kicking ass and taking names.” “I’m going to kill you, ******”, was another offering Muhammad made according to Joe, his response: “Yeah that’s what you got to do. Cause I ain’t going nowhere.” Then, at the final bell, having dumped the butterfly in front of more people than watched the moon landing, “I kicked your ass.”


That's hate my friend.

Full article: [Only registered and activated users can see links]

[PetethePrince]

Ali defiently knew this, it was widely reported at the time. How could he not know it? You don't like someone if you keep doind what you are doing when it endangers the lives of others.

Frazier having better stamina than Marciano has no relevance to this thread and I am not talking about it anymore; you're clutching at straws.

Here's an excerpt from an article on some comments from Ali:

Tom Payne, Frazier’s bodyguard for the Fight of the Century, said that he “never saw Joe unnerved [by the death threats]”, but those death threats came in waves. His family was also threatened. Joe Frazier took this knowledge on his six mile runs and into the ring where he beat sparring partners mercilessly. “I don’t think anyone could have beaten me that night,” Joe offered recently, and to the fight plan itself in his autobiography, he said this: “What I would do was pound on his kidneys and spleen.” 300 million people saw Frazier do just that. During the fight Frazier became one of the few men to get the better of Ali in the verbal’s. “Don’t you know I’m God,” Ali offered. “God, you’re in the wrong place tonight. I’m kicking ass and taking names.” “I’m going to kill you, ******”, was another offering Muhammad made according to Joe, his response: “Yeah that’s what you got to do. Cause I ain’t going nowhere.” Then, at the final bell, having dumped the butterfly in front of more people than watched the moon landing, “I kicked your ass.”


That's hate my friend.

Full article: [Only registered and activated users can see links]

If Ali knew I think he knew after the death threats were relevant. Pointless since this is all speculation. So saying he kept doing what he did knowing he was endangering the lives of others is kind of a premature conclusion. We don't know that.

Right, I know the whole "Don't you know I'm God." Ali feverishly denies that he said that. So even that's speculation at this point.

[OBCboxer]

If Ali knew I think he knew after the death threats were relevant. Pointless since this is all speculation. So saying he kept doing what he did knowing he was endangering the lives of others is kind of a premature conclusion. We don't know that.

Right, I know the whole "Don't you know I'm God." Ali feverishly denies that he said that. So even that's speculation at this point.

Those are some pretty hateful qoutes in there. Don't you think? Even if he was "clowning" or "promoting the fight", you don't say those things if you don't hate someone.

It's speculation, but my case is very strong because it would be very hard for Ali not to know that Joe and his family were being threatened, since it was reported.

[PetethePrince]

Those are some pretty hateful qoutes in there. Don't you think?

It's speculation, but my case is very strong because it would be very hard for Ali not to know that Joe and his family were being threatened, since it was reported.

Some those quotes sound like what he said from within the fight (Especially the N word ones which might be why the dispute even arose). And Holmes talked about all the bad things he said to him in the fight he couldn't even say it on the radio. And Ali was fine about it afterwards.

As for the other stuff. Yeah, Ali crossed the line big time. I feel Ali seemed most serious about things he said before FOTC and then till 74. For the Thrilla, it just seems Ali gets a kick out of seeing Joe get mad. I don't see the hatred from Ali. If Ali hated him, then he hated him for a few years and got over it because it's clear that from after retirement he didn't hate him. At least he doesn't show that, and he didn't show it before the Thrilla fight either. Joe on the other hand still wanted to beat him up at the 88 Champions for Dinner :lol:. Now, I'm not saying he isn't to be rightfully bitter or upset. As Joe said, "I don't think anyone can be in my shoes. And if they did, it wouldn't fit."

As for the whole threatening family thing. When exactly does it get reported publicly? That should answer that, then.

[Holmes' Jab]

Fight of the Century in terms of historic fights pips Manilla, but Manilla wins my vote because of the action, intensity, workrate, heart and will of the two fighters. Both men went to the well so often during that fight.

[OBCboxer]

Some those quotes sound like what he said from within the fight (Especially the N word ones which might be why the dispute even arose). And Holmes talked about all the bad things he said to him in the fight he couldn't even say it on the radio. And Ali was fine about it afterwards.

As for the other stuff. Yeah, Ali crossed the line big time. I feel Ali seemed most serious about things he said before FOTC and then till 74. For the Thrilla, it just seems Ali gets a kick out of seeing Joe get mad. I don't see the hatred from Ali. If Ali hated him, then he hated him for a few years and got over it because it's clear that from after retirement he didn't hate him. At least he doesn't show that, and he didn't show it before the Thrilla fight either. Joe on the other hand still wanted to beat him up at the 88 Champions for Dinner :lol:. Now, I'm not saying he isn't to be rightfully bitter or upset. As Joe said, "I don't think anyone can be in my shoes. And if they did, it wouldn't fit."

As for the whole threatening family thing. When exactly does it get reported publicly? That should answer that, then.

We can finally agree! I think Ali hated for a few years but after the dust settled, he simply didn't/couldn't hate the man anymore.

[Bill Butcher]

Fight of the Century in terms of historic fights pips Manilla, but Manilla wins my vote because of the action, intensity, workrate, heart and will of the two fighters. Both men went to the well so often during that fight.

Thats the way I see it too, the thrilla was better as a fight, fuck the hype n all that shit.

You sit a crowd of people that dont know shit about past boxing in a room & show these 2 fights back to back & tell them to pick which one was the better fight, the Thrilla in Manila would win hands down IMO.

[McGrain]

You sit a crowd of people that dont know shit about past boxing in a room & show these 2 fights back to back & tell them to pick which one was the better fight, the Thrilla in Manila would win hands down IMO.

I agree with that. But you can rarely trust people that don't know shit ;)