Tyson/Seldon

[TheBradyHawkes]

I just watched this for the first time in years, and forgive me if this has been discussed.

Is it just me or do the "knockdowns" look suspicious? The first time Seldon goes down, it looks like he was hit with nothing, and then proceeds to flop on his belly like a fish. The second looks like he may have been grazed with a hook at best. And why did Richard Steele initially rule the 1st knockdown a slip, then start counting?? :patsch

The wobble at the end looks no better.

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[IntentionalButt]

The first KD was a 1-2 (the jab itself was actually very hard, almost a power jab with the big lead step Mike took) that may have included some forearm. The ref took a second to realize that.

The second KD was a perfect hook right on the button; that camera angle just didn't pick it up in a very well.

[PetethePrince]

It's a weird fight. A classic Tyson opposition completely intimidated and fearful.

[Francis75]

It's a weird fight. A classic Tyson opposition completely intimidated and fearful.

Exactly. Seldon was just plain scared and knew he was going to get a beating. He was there for his payday and made sure he took as little damage as possible. Similar to what any of us would do really. Disgracefull for a world champion boxer though.

[red cobra]

This fight, for the sake of boxing, is better off forgotten.

[lefthook31]

Seldon never lived this one down. I dont know why he was so scared of Tyson. He had fought Riddick Bowe. The whole media circus surrounding the fight intimidated Seldon big time. Seldon was nervous about fighting Tyson at the Bruno fight.

[Dempsey1238]

I wasted good money for this ppv.

Only Christy Martain put on a good show there.

Tyson Seldon, geez, I didnt expect Tyson to just look at Seldon and Seldon goes down.

People may bring on Peter McKinley, but this fight made Peter look like he had a Jake Lamotta like chin lol.

I thought on the first viewing, live of couse, that Tyson MISS the punch, seeing it now it is just a graze.

I seen Seldon take harder shots than that and not get ko.
I suppose if you want to see a guy scared shitless and go down with no damage at all. Go ahead.
But this fight still leaves a sour taste in my mouth after all these years. I almost thought Seldon was going to jump out the ring here.

[Danny]

Exactly. Seldon was just plain scared and knew he was going to get a beating. He was there for his payday and made sure he took as little damage as possible. Similar to what any of us would do really. Disgracefull for a world champion boxer though.

We can draw our won conclusions from Tyson-Seldon. If Bruce was intimiadted that was not Mike's fault!

If you can gain a mental advantage over an opponent then I advise anyone to take advantage of that!

[IntentionalButt]

Guys, he got knocked down by a jab (more or less...and a little bit of a cross/forearm landing atop his skull), and then out by a hook on the button. There's no great mystery. He was obviously petrified during the first ten-count...like a rabbit.

[PowerPuncher]

Guys, he got knocked down by a jab (more or less...and a little bit of a cross/forearm landing atop his skull), and then out by a hook on the button. There's no great mystery. He was obviously petrified during the first ten-count...like a rabbit.

True, people act like Seldon took a dive. He didn't that first 1-2, the right didnt land clean but it banged Seldon behind the ear with the glove or elbow and if you've ever been hit there you'll know it can put you on queer street.

Pity about Seldon's durability because his jab was such a sweet punch, his movement and 1-2 was good. I'd pick him to beat Ruiz and maybe Byrd if he came along 9years later

[Jazzo]

I too am not convinced that this is the blatant dive it is made out to be. I'll watch it now and give an assessment.

[McGrain]

There was a certain level of hysteria at the time, for sure.

[Jazzo]

I too am not convinced that this is the blatant dive it is made out to be. I'll watch it now and give an assessment.

Having watched it again;

The first knockdown was odd, but if you examine it you will see that Tyson threw his whole weight into the shot and when both bodies collided, Seldon simply lost his balance.

The second knock-down is totally genuine, and although many find the wobble suspicious, I have seen far worse.

Tyson hits hard and not everyone can take big shots. Sometimes you will get delayed reactions.

Nothing wrong with that win.

[IntentionalButt]

Having watched it again;

The first knockdown was odd, but if you examine it you will see that Tyson threw his whole weight into the shot and when both bodies collided, Seldon simply lost his balance.

The second knock-down is totally genuine, and although many find the wobble suspicious, I have seen far worse.

Tyson hits hard and not everyone can take big shots. Sometimes you will get delayed reactions.

Nothing wrong with that win.

:deal

[PetethePrince]

Who called it a dive?

[lefthook31]

That fight was definitely a dive on Seldons part. The last knockdown where he wobbled and Steele stopped it was a complete acting job on Seldons part. I believe he just felt like he couldnt win, and wanted out of the fight. Ironically Seldon was stopped in 9 rounds by Fres Oquendo last night.

[IntentionalButt]

That fight was definitely a dive on Seldons part. The last knockdown where he wobbled and Steele stopped it was a complete acting job on Seldons part. I believe he just felt like he couldnt win, and wanted out of the fight. Ironically Seldon was stopped in 9 rounds by Fres Oquendo last night.


No, that's reasonable. Let's timewarp back to 1996 and you can take a flush hook from Mike Tyson. And don't wobble when you get up. Then I'll totally admit that all of us who think this was legit were full of shit.


Shit, just get up, period.

[lefthook31]

ote=IntentionalButt;4566093]No, that's reasonable. Let's timewarp back to 1996 and you can take a flush hook from Mike Tyson. And don't wobble (or go down). Then I'll totally admit that all of us who think this was legit were full of shit.[/quote]
Well I can share a personal story with you. Ive told this story before and I swear its the truth. I was at the Tyson BrunoII fight and I was sitting a few rows behind Seldon. After the fight, and having a few drinks in me and I walked down a couple rows and screamed to Seldon, Hey Bruce, your next, your going to get it next!! The man went from smiling to a look of cold fear on his face. I actually felt bad for him after I said it, and his whole demeanor changed and he really had a look of fear. I knew at that point he had no chance. The way Seldon acted before and after the fight putting his arm around Tyson it was a total joke. Seldon for some reason got caught up in the whole mystique of Tyson being some monster. I know it sounds like a BS story, but I swear it happened. I told anyone who would listen Seldon wouldnt make it out of the first round and probably not the first minute of the fight. I actually snapped a picture of Seldon, so Im going to try and find it and post it.

[Jazzo]

Did Berbick take a dive?

He would have hit the deck a 4th time had the ref not caught him.

[TheBradyHawkes]

The first knockdown was odd, but if you examine it you will see that Tyson threw his whole weight into the shot and when both bodies collided, Seldon simply lost his balance.

I can buy that, but look at him when he goes down. It appears to me that he clearly goes down on his hands and knees, and then flops to his belly like he's been shot. That's the oddest bit of the whole thing to me.

[IntentionalButt]

Well I can share a personal story with you. Ive told this story before and I swear its the truth. I was at the Tyson BrunoII fight and I was sitting a few rows behind Seldon. After the fight, and having a few drinks in me and I walked down a couple rows and screamed to Seldon, Hey Bruce, your next, your going to get it next!! The man went from smiling to a look of cold fear on his face. I actually felt bad for him after I said it, and his whole demeanor changed and he really had a look of fear. I knew at that point he had no chance. The way Seldon acted before and after the fight putting his arm around Tyson it was a total joke. Seldon for some reason got caught up in the whole mystique of Tyson being some monster. I know it sounds like a BS story, but I swear it happened. I told anyone who would listen Seldon wouldnt make it out of the first round and probably not the first minute of the fight. I actually snapped a picture of Seldon, so Im going to try and find it and post it.


I have no problem buying that. See to me, that just corroborates that Seldon was petrified and unable to intelligently defend himself, so overwhelmed was he by the magnitude of the moment. After both knockdowns there's a glaze in his eyes - not a conspirator's glaze - a victim's glaze - the look lobsters give you as they're halfway in the pot.

[Jazzo]

I can buy that, but look at him when he goes down. It appears to me that he clearly goes down on his hands and knees, and then flops to his belly like he's been shot. That's the oddest bit of the whole thing to me.

Pause and examine 3.32 of the video.

When he hits the deck his left foot is under duress, and it slips on the canvas causing him to flop onto his belly.

[TheGreatA]

I'm not going to say that the fight was a fix because with Seldon's chin it was a foregone conclusion, but Seldon definitely dived the instant Tyson threw anything resembling a punch.

Slow motion replay:

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5:30 The jab misses and the follow-up punch doesn't land. Seldon does a nice belly flop.

Now the left hook did land but the wobble Seldon did was an act to get out of the fight.

[IntentionalButt]

I'm not going to say that the fight was a fix because with Seldon's chin it was a foregone conclusion, but Seldon definitely dived the instant Tyson threw anything resembling a punch.

Slow motion replay:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

5:30 The jab misses and the follow-up punch doesn't land. Seldon does a nice belly flop.

Now the left hook did land but the wobble Seldon did was an act to get out of the fight.


A) The jab doesn't miss, IMO. It pretty clearly lands on Seldon's nose, and at the moment of impact (5:33) his knees start to buckle. If the fix was in, wouldn't he wait for the power punch to come through to start to "sell" it? Every fool armchair professional wreslter knows that.
B) Tyson's full body weight more or less followed the jab directly, causing the top of Seldon's head to bounce off first his armpit (5:34) and then culminating in what was in effect the KD "blow" - butting up against Iron Mike's big non-cuddly pecs. Not to mentiont those are some well-muscled arms that came full-boar around Bruce's dome. An odd sight and not a common one, but the basic physics of it aren't far beyond comprehension. Guys with physiques not half as imposing as Tyson's are able to knock their peers down just by stepping into their path and sticking out their chests in both football and basketball.
C) The hook at 5:55, especially from that angle - is an absolute thing of beauty. Executed the way you'd wish they'd teach in elementary school. Clearly connects. And on the jaw. No questions here. Judah chickendanced over less. Spaghetti legs here are certainly forgivable. As I said, Seldon getting up from that was a feat.

[TheGreatA]

A) The jab doesn't miss, IMO. It pretty clearly lands on Seldon's nose, and at the moment of impact (5:33) his knees start to buckle. If the fix was in, wouldn't he wait for the power punch to come through to start to "sell" it? Every fool armchair professional wreslter knows that.
B) Tyson's full body weight more or less followed the jab directly, causing the top of Seldon's head to bounce off first his armpit (5:34) and then culminating in what was in effect the KD "blow" - butting up against Iron Mike's big non-cuddly pecs. Not to mentiont those are some well-muscled arms that came full-boar around Bruce's dome. An odd sight and not a common one, but the basic physics of it aren't far beyond comprehension. Guys with physiques not half as imposing as Tyson's are able to knock their peers down just by stepping into their path and sticking out their chests in both football and basketball.
C) The hook at 5:55, especially from that angle - is an absolute thing of beauty. Executed the way you'd wish they'd teach in elementary school. Clearly connects. And on the jaw. No questions here. Judah chickendanced over less. Spaghetti legs here are certainly forgivable. As I said, Seldon getting up from that was a feat.

"A right hand on the top of his head," Tyson ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) said. "More of an elbow that touched a nerve or something," said Seldon ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Replay after replay failed to show the collision. Seldon ([Only registered and activated users can see links])'s face-first fall was so mysterious that referee Richard Steele ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) first started to rule it a slip. "I was attempting to wave it off," said Steele ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). "But he seemed hurt, so I picked up the count. I've seen a lot worse, but then I can't tell how hard Mike Tyson ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) punches."

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

I don't buy it.

[IntentionalButt]

"A right hand on the top of his head," Tyson ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) said. "More of an elbow that touched a nerve or something," said Seldon ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Replay after replay failed to show the collision. Seldon ([Only registered and activated users can see links])'s face-first fall was so mysterious that referee Richard Steele ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) first started to rule it a slip. "I was attempting to wave it off," said Steele ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). "But he seemed hurt, so I picked up the count. I've seen a lot worse, but then I can't tell how hard Mike Tyson ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) punches."

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

I don't buy it.
As I said - knees buckled the legs, and then the weight/brunt of Tyson's arm/torso/armpit knocked Seldon to the ground. If you want to get technical, IMO it shouldn't have been ruled a knockdown in hindsight. It wasn't a legal punch that put him down. It was however, physical force. You see guys get pushed or muscled to the ground all the time in this sport. This set of circumstances happened to go as follows: Sharp jab weakened Bruce's knees and Tyson came barging in, Seldon's melon pinballed around his burly frame (you can't tell me there's no contact with the armpit - out of which his skull clearly bounces independent from the movement of the rest of his body - then the chest, and the arms pushing forward/down on top of it all). So in a perfect world Tyson gets credit for only one knockdown in the fight. Same result. Totally academic. Seldon knocked off balance by the brute strength of Tyson (not by a punch...although it was a jab that anchored him and set him up by causing the quiver in his patellae) and then KTFO by a hook not long thereafter.

[Jazzo]

"A right hand on the top of his head," Tyson ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) said. "More of an elbow that touched a nerve or something," said Seldon ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Replay after replay failed to show the collision. Seldon ([Only registered and activated users can see links])'s face-first fall was so mysterious that referee Richard Steele ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) first started to rule it a slip. "I was attempting to wave it off," said Steele ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). "But he seemed hurt, so I picked up the count. I've seen a lot worse, but then I can't tell how hard Mike Tyson ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) punches."

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

I don't buy it.

Does my explanation not suffice?

I think this is getting well out of hand.

Again:

Pause and examine 3.32 of the video.

When he hits the deck his left foot is under duress, and it slips on the canvas causing him to flop onto his belly.

[IntentionalButt]

The bottom line is, whatever it is, while it may have looked odd in a boxing context in that it's not what you see every day - it did in fact look quite natural. Tumblers with years of prat-falling training and experience can't turn in performances that good. What makes you think some dunderhead boxer is going to be able to intimate the exact motions of being bowled over; and then of being KTFO by a perfect leaping hook (and with that one really I don't see any room for debate - very routine reaction).

[Chris Warren]

Seldon wasnt afraid of Tyson. I am sure he was paid to take a dive just like many Mike Tyson opponents.

[IntentionalButt]

Seldon wasnt afraid of Tyson. I am sure he was paid to take a dive just like many Mike Tyson opponents.


Classic Forum's credibility is rapidly gaining on that of the GF. :-(

Neck and neck:

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