How come Bonecrusher Smith ended up getting a rematch w/ Witherspoon?

[KOTF]

Witherspoon already decisively beat him the first time, how come he had to fight him again?

[lefthook31]

Because of Don King. Both Smith and Spoon were King fighters. King at the time owned all the heavyweights, and he was the one who organized the Acefield tournament to determine an undisputed champion. Spinks chose not to participate, and Tyson won the tournament and beat the linear champion Spinks, who did not participate.

[My2Sense]

Wasn't Bonecrusher a late sub?

[OBCboxer]

What Left Hook said. It's King.

[Bigcat]

Tim had just won a title fight against Tony Tubbs , but there was a lot of talk about a failed drug test and Tubbs v Witherspoon 2 was set for december 1986.. 2 weeks before the card was due to take place Tubbs aggrivated an old elbow injury and pulled out and James was due to face Mitchell Green on that same date so DKP replaced Tubbs with Smith leaving Green a very angry individual, culminating in a DKP bodyguard being bitten (but that was another story) Smith V Tim was part of the Unification series after Spoon blew out another WBA candidate Frank Bruno in London.. Tim actually was very unhappy at his contract to KIng and i think wanted out and to be a free agent , and many think his 1 round loss was Tims way of getting free of Don because of the small payments he was getting for title defences.. (Bruno Fight was small change after Don took his slice..) Smith anyhow was indeed a late substitute who was ready for a fight that very weekend.. The Ko was a shock especially as it was so fast.. but James took the opportunity and milked it and went on to have that legendary dance athon with Tyson in Vegas after Mike took the WBC away from Berbick... James was 33 at the time he boxed Tyson.. quite old for a champ at heavy.. strange both Tim and Smith had stoppage wins over Bruno, and his third came against Tyson ... whom Smith lost to on pts next up..




mirageboxing.blogspot.com

[mr. magoo]

Because of Don King. Both Smith and Spoon were King fighters. King at the time owned all the heavyweights, and he was the one who organized the Acefield tournament to determine an undisputed champion.

No,

Smith was a late substitute for Tubbs.....

[anut]

actually mitch green pulled out...........and bonecrusher was in

[mr. magoo]

Tim had just won a title fight against Tony Tubbs , but there was a lot of talk about a failed drug test and Tubbs v Witherspoon 2 was set for december 1986.. 2 weeks before the card was due to take place Tubbs aggrivated an old elbow injury and pulled out and James was due to face Mitchell Green on that same date so DKP replaced Tubbs with Smith leaving Green a very angry individual, culminating in a DKP bodyguard being bitten (but that was another story) Smith V Tim was part of the Unification series after Spoon blew out another WBA candidate Frank Bruno in London.. Tim actually was very unhappy at his contract to KIng and i think wanted out and to be a free agent , and many think his 1 round loss was Tims way of getting free of Don because of the small payments he was getting for title defences.. (Bruno Fight was small change after Don took his slice..) Smith anyhow was indeed a late substitute who was ready for a fight that very weekend.. The Ko was a shock especially as it was so fast.. but James took the opportunity and milked it and went on to have that legendary dance athon with Tyson in Vegas after Mike took the WBC away from Berbick... James was 33 at the time he boxed Tyson.. quite old for a champ at heavy.. strange both Tim and Smith had stoppage wins over Bruno, and his third came against Tyson ... whom Smith lost to on pts next up..




mirageboxing.blogspot.com

Excellent post, and one of the first that I've heard in a long time that seems to be dead on balls accurate where this topic is concerned.

As for the suspician of Witherspoon throwing the Smith fight, it has always been my understanding that it was a black mail job from DK.. Around 1990, I saw Tim Witherspoon take on a journeyman named Jeff Simms. During the commentary, Sean O'Grady told Al Albert that in his pre-fight meeting with Spoon, Tim told him that he was approached by King before that fight, and was told " you WILL lose this fight, or you WILL test positive for drugs. " When O'Grady asked why Tim had tested positive for drugs regardless of the loss, Tim replied that King decided to go ahead and sabotage him anyway...

Was Tim telling the truth, or just trying to cover up for an embarrassing defeat? Who knows. I do know however, that fighters don't just go around accusing powerful men of blackmail. The very notion of being involved in a fixed fight is very discrediting, even if the victim had his arm twisted. To no surprise, Witherspoon was basically blackballed from contention for the rest of his career. From 1987-1990, Witherspoon was winning fights, yet his rating continued to drop, while many of his peers ( some of whom he had beaten ), were getting title shots. In the meantime, the Ring Magazine continued to list Witherspoon as one of their top 5 to 8 heavyweights, despite the first round defeat to Smith.. If anything, it only made the Smith loss look even fishier. The one thing that remains consistent as seen in both your post and mine, is that most people who were around then concur that Spoon's loss to Smith reeked of a dive, as well as some very dark politics. Finally around 1991, Spoon's rating did begin to appear in some of the alphabet ratings upon beating Jose Ribalta and Carl Williams. But his standing as a true force in the division was never consolidated as no marketable opponent wanted anything to do with him nor his checkered past..

[MRBILL]

Because Tony Tubbs pulled out of their Dec. '86 rematch due to some bullshit excuse, and Don "The" King didn't want to waste the event at MSG on HBO Cable TV......... Tim Witherspoon was a flabby 235 pounds in Dec. of 1986, and Spoon looked like he just crawled outta bed to fight James "Lazy Bones" Smith................ Smith was a "Late Sub" for Tony "Tub of Goo" Tubbs because Smith was already in training and in good shape to fight on short notice................... '86 was Smith's peak year in boxing.......... Smith scored wins over "Mike Weaver, Jesse Ferguson & David Bey" going into his title shot against Tim Witherspoon..........

MR.BILL

[fists of fury]

culminating in a DKP bodyguard being bitten (but that was another story)

Do tell.

[lefthook31]

No,

Smith was a late substitute for Tubbs.....
So James Smith and Tim Witherspoon werent Don King fighters?? :roll:

[he grant]

Spoon did not throw the fight ... he went in so over confident because he beat Bonecrusher so easily and throughly the first time out ... he really pounded the sh-t out of him. I was amazed Smith lasted the distance as he took dozens of bombs from Witherspoon ... Tim went in overconfident, got caught with the first right hand Smith threw and did not recover . In addition, it was a strange KO as Witherspoon was not really that hurt. He simply could not regain his balance and in NYC the three knockdown rule awarded Smith the bout ... I have always felt if it was fought in another state and Tim made it through the first and had a minute to regain his balance he would have come out and won the fight ... such is life ..

[mr. magoo]

So James Smith and Tim Witherspoon werent Don King fighters?? :roll:

Well, you said nothing of Tubbs pulling out nor of Smith being his replacement. Only jibberish about them both being King fighters, which is only half the story, and something that everyone already knows.

[MRBILL]

Smith knocked two goddamn teeth outta Spoon's mouth during them 3 knock-downs in round one........... Smith iced Spoon........... Spoon's mind was nowhere near the fight back in 1986........... Peace.........

MR.BILL

[Muchmoore]

Yeah, I don't really hold the opinion that Spoon took a dive that night. I think that he had way too many distractions going into that fight and Bonecrushers power lived up to his nickname he was able to take advantage.

Smith-Spoon has never struck me as a fixed fight, no matter how many times I watch it.

[Russell]

Smith knocked two goddamn teeth outta Spoon's mouth during them 3 knock-downs in round one........... Smith iced Spoon........... Spoon's mind was nowhere near the fight back in 1986........... Peace.........

MR.BILL

Yeah, I was going to say this. He was spitting out fucking teeth.

The only way he could have "thrown" that fight was to maybe come in with a low guard, allow himself to be hit multiple times. He sure as shit wasn't going down from taps.

[Russell]

Also, Smith was a HUGE puncher. His delivery and other attributes may have sucked at times but the guy was one of the hardest hitters of the Lost Generation, he did things like knock out other big heavies with single bodyshots. Pretty rare feat, that.

[MRBILL]

No fix at all..... "Smith-Spoon 2" was on the level........... NOW! You want fixes or dives, just eyeball "Ali-Liston 2" or "Tyson-Seldon" on tape......... That shit stunk and ripped-off the fans / public who paid for that crap.........

ALSO! On a lesser scale..... Check out Foreman's 1990 KO over a bum named Terry Armstrong in England.... Foreman does land a right hand to the head of Armstrong in round one.... But Armstrong goes down like he'd been shot by a cannon...... However, moments after the fight is waved, Armstrong has his senses and stength back and lifts Foreman up in the air during the announcement.... Total bollocks......

MR.BILL

[lefthook31]

No fix at all..... "Smith-Spoon 2" was on the level........... NOW! You want fixes or dives, just eyeball "Ali-Liston 2" or "Tyson-Seldon" on tape......... That shit stunk and ripped-off the fans / public who paid for that crap.........

ALSO! On a lesser scale..... Check out Foreman's 1990 KO over a bum named Terry Armstrong in England.... Foreman does land a right hand to the head of Armstrong in round one.... But Armstrong goes down like he'd been shot by a cannon...... However, moments after the fight is waved, Armstrong has his senses and stength back and lifts Foreman up in the air during the announcement.... Total bollocks......

MR.BILL
Spoon got hurt badly with a righthand counter simple as that. He never recovered. Smith came to fight.

[Titan1]

I was disappointed.I wanted to see Green beat Smith in that fight.

[My2Sense]

Spoon did not throw the fight ... he went in so over confident because he beat Bonecrusher so easily and throughly the first time out ... he really pounded the sh-t out of him. I was amazed Smith lasted the distance as he took dozens of bombs from Witherspoon ... Tim went in overconfident, got caught with the first right hand Smith threw and did not recover . In addition, it was a strange KO as Witherspoon was not really that hurt. He simply could not regain his balance and in NYC the three knockdown rule awarded Smith the bout ... I have always felt if it was fought in another state and Tim made it through the first and had a minute to regain his balance he would have come out and won the fight ... such is life ..

I've always suspected that Spoon came into that fight stoned. No proof of that, just my own speculation. He just looked like he wasn't there - before, during, or after the fight. After the fight, he shows no emotion at all, like he he isn't even aware that he just got his ass kicked and has lost his title. It's like he's in another world. The first right hand that Smith caught him with was a tremendous punch, and the win itself looked legit; but Spoon's all around behavior has always looked strange to me.

[ThinBlack]

Because Don King wanted it that way.

[Conn]

if i remember rightly Tyrell biggs actually turned down the chance to replace Tony Tubbs.
biggs management stayed with him being on the undercard against snipes.

[JohnThomas1]

Here's Tim Witherspoon on this very fight, late 2009. I believe what he says is true.

On his shocking 1st-round loss to James "Bonecrusher" Smith: (I asked whether or not it was true that he lost the fight on purpose, having beaten Smith so comprehensively on points in an earlier meeting.)

"Who told you that!? Oh, the first fight was a totally different fight. I beat him every round. Three times I almost had him knocked out. But the second fight, I didn't want it. It made no sense. I was training for a rematch with Tony Tubbs. But I was told by certain people, that if I didn't take the fight, my career was over! So I thought, to lose is a way to get out and start again with another promoter.

"I didn't put up a fight. I felt I'd let my fans down afterwards, but I just gave it to him [Smith]. Smith thinks he was a legitimate world champion, but was he? That's up to the fans to make up their own minds."

[Conn]

i have always thought witherspoon went into that fight not caring whether he won or lost. i remember the week leading up to that fight and the aftermath. the stuff going on between king and witherspoon and king and tubbs was ugly and depressing.

having said that, i dont know if witherspoon "took a dive" as such. i dont know he when out there thinking of getting KO'd in the first round. he went in there not caring. he probably figured losing was as good as winning. or better.
smith sensed it and took him out with real punches. you cant take that away from smith.

witherspoon was in bad condition anyway. and i cant give him a free pass for this loss.