Ali Or Leonard

[Stevie G]

Who do you consider to be better,pound for pound out of Muhammad Ali and Sugar Ray Leonard ? As far as the textbook goes I would give this one to Leonard,yet Ali seemed to possess more imponderables like snatching victory from the jaws of defeat. Also winning fights by unorthodox means. For example I could n't imagine Leonard in his early thirties beating a middleweight equivalent of George Foreman via the rope-a-dope technique.

[PbP Bacon]

Leonard is ATG, but Ali is better PbP than Leonard

[Henke67]

I have Ali somewhere between #6 and #8 P4P, whereas Leonard is on the fringes of my top 10.

Ali's ability to be the best Heavyweight of a golden era after he'd lost one of his greatest assets (his foot-speed) is one of the reasons I rate him so highly.

[DINAMITA]

Personally it's a no contest for me, it absolutely has to be Ali. Leonard has huge and amazing wins (Benitez, Hearns, Duran II, Hagler), Ali has huge and amazing wins (Liston I+II, Foreman, Frazier II+III), but then Ali has so so so much more to his career. Contender after contender after contender mastered over years and years and years.

[Titan1]

Ali, though Leonard was tremendous until he started doing that comeback thing.

[Addie]

Leonard had the potential to surpass Ali in a P4P sense had he been more active, and had never suffered the detached retina. As great as Leonard's resume remains, he was to inconsistent to fuck with a guy like Ali, who cleared up at Heavyweight at least two times, once whilst past his best.

Ali, and it's not close.

[laxpdx]

Ali, easily.

[teeto]

The only, and the rock means only.......... way you could give this to Leonard would be on the multi-divisional aspect of greatness.

My pick is Ali outright.

[Bill Butcher]

Muhammad Ali

Not many in the history of the sport where better p4p than Ray Leonard but Muhammad Ali was one of the few who were.

[Bill Butcher]

Only one boxer can be rated over Ali IMO & thats Robinson, those 2 are the cream of the crop.

[The Predator]

These are my two absolute favourite boxers. Leonard is superb but no way he takes this one. There can only be one The greatest and he said it himself. With all good points mentioned before I agree totally.
MUHAMMAD ALI.
All the best
the Predator

[DRMULLEN]

Ali.

[McGrain]

Ali

[GDG]

Leonards resume (despite having amazing wins) lacks a great deal of solid wins.

It's a shame as Leonard could quite possibly have been the most naturally talented boxer ever...he really seemed to have it all!!

I have him at #9 on my top 50 fighters but much of that is down to natural talent rather than a deep resume. Has to be Ali for me.

[196osh]

Ali

[Flea Man]

In my post-war P4P top 20, Ali is no.4

Ray Leonard is no.15. Go figure.

[DINAMITA]

Only one boxer can be rated over Ali IMO & thats Robinson, those 2 are the cream of the crop.

What's your opinion of Ezzard Charles? In the past few months, I have become convinced that he has a very strong case for being ranked higher than Ali.

[smitty_son408]

Ali, there's no possible argument for Leonard.

[redrooster]

Who do you consider to be better,pound for pound out of Muhammad Ali and Sugar Ray Leonard ? As far as the textbook goes I would give this one to Leonard,yet Ali seemed to possess more imponderables like snatching victory from the jaws of defeat. Also winning fights by unorthodox means. For example I could n't imagine Leonard in his early thirties beating a middleweight equivalent of George Foreman via the rope-a-dope technique.

This should come as no surprise.

A win over 1983-1984 Hagler would have done it otherwise it would take a series of lesser wins.

Personally, I don't think he could cut it and live up to MY standards.

Also, comparing 33 year old Ali and Leonard, is like asking Leonard to take out Julian Jackson at age 33 when he couldnt even tame Norris.

A series of successful matches: Curry, Pryor, Honeyghan, Hearns @ 154 would be the perfect set up to even bigger matchups in the future. By 1989, he would have been ready to move up to 160 and take the title from Nunn who was just peaking.

Otherwise, my enthusiasm over this fighter is very very low due to a lack of accomplishment, and is fortunate to grace #50 spot

[Stevie G]

What's your opinion of Ezzard Charles? In the past few months, I have become convinced that he has a very strong case for being ranked higher than Ali.
On what basis ? Ezzard Charles was a good competent Light Heavy come Heavyweight,but comparing him to Ali ? Compare their resumes for a start.

[Stevie G]

This should come as no surprise.

A win over 1983-1984 Hagler would have done it otherwise it would take a series of lesser wins.

Personally, I don't think he could cut it and live up to MY standards.

Also, comparing 33 year old Ali and Leonard, is like asking Leonard to take out Julian Jackson at age 33 when he couldnt even tame Norris.

A series of successful matches: Curry, Pryor, Honeyghan, Hearns @ 154 would be the perfect set up to even bigger matchups in the future. By 1989, he would have been ready to move up to 160 and take the title from Nunn who was just peaking.

Otherwise, my enthusiasm over this fighter is very very low due to a lack of accomplishment, and is fortunate to grace #50 spot
I go along with this. After the Hagler fight,Leonard picked his opponents very carefully,whereas Ali,at the same age was still taking on all comers.

[DINAMITA]

On what basis ? Ezzard Charles was a good competent Light Heavy come Heavyweight,but comparing him to Ali ? Compare their resumes for a start.

Charles's resume is better.

Competent at lhw?! :admin

Are you sure you know who he is???

[Minotauro]

Ali his resume has more depth.

[Minotauro]

On what basis ? Ezzard Charles was a good competent Light Heavy come Heavyweight,but comparing him to Ali ? Compare their resumes for a start.

Charles has a better resume then Ali. Along with Langford and Greb, Ezzard has the best resume in boxing. And he wasn't just competent at light heavy he is probably the greatest light heavyweight ever.

[cotto20]

Ali

[Robbi]

Ali. Leonard aint too far behing him though. They both had superb wins.

[Addie]

is fortunate to grace #50 spot

:patsch

[Bill Butcher]

What's your opinion of Ezzard Charles? In the past few months, I have become convinced that he has a very strong case for being ranked higher than Ali.

The footage doesnt quite = what Ive heard & read about the man but I will not hold that against him by placing him somewhere unjust like 22 or whatever, instead, I`ll refuse to put him on a list or give him a definite rating if the footage doesnt do justice to what the man surely was & that is great (his resume speaks for itself) Same with men like Greb, Jofre, Langford etc.

I will never disrespect the men as they were obviously amazing fighters regardless of era but personally, I must see enough footage to = whats been written & spoken about the fighter in order to rank them myself.

:good

[scrap]

Dinamita Ezzard Charles was an amazing Fighter, His resume is Fantastic. In my eyes the Best. Beating Burley as a 19 year old was fantastic, beat the Best in a great career. His downfall was a form of MS which He died from.Its pretty certain that He had developed it before the Walcott loss, great Fighter who gets overlooked as a GOAT because of the later years Shame.

[redrooster]

:patsch

Some of us here have very high standards that we set. We know the genuine article when we see it

[Flea Man]

On what basis ? Ezzard Charles was a good competent Light Heavy come Heavyweight,but comparing him to Ali ? Compare their resumes for a start.

YOU need to compare their resumes. Charles has one of the best resumes of all time. Ali faced more 'well-known' fighters. I personally have Ali above Charles. But by two places. Mainly due to the way he took apart more 'dangerous' guys, and the fact that he was so fast at HW (I take attributes/skillset into a fighter when ranking them)

But Charles was immense mate

[Stevie G]

Charles's resume is better.

Competent at lhw?! :admin

Are you sure you know who he is???
He started his career at Light heavyweight.Moved up to the heavies a couple of years before he became World champ.

[Rock0052]

I give it to Leonard, but it should be noted that my definition of P4P means that no career Heavyweight, Ali included, is likely to get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to being compared to ATG fighters in a lighter weight. Some might look at it as punishment, but when you're routinely the same size as your opponent or bigger, it doesn't mean as much P4P for me as when someone smaller challenges and defeats very good or great larger fighters. Just my 2 cents on it.

Depth of resume makes it close, but Ali still didn't have a win that beats Leonard's first KO of Hearns or beating Hagler, moving up in weight, after a layoff. Making Duran quit is something Ray really doesn't get enough credit for either, IMO.

P4P, those 3 fighters whom Ray holds wins over are all better than anyone Ali fought.

That Ali fought much more top 10 competition and had superior longevity is what makes it a tough call, so I wouldn't begrudge anyone who chooses Ali. But, I'm rolling with Leonard.

[Flea Man]

He started his career at Light heavyweight.Moved up to the heavies a couple of years before he became World champ.

he most definitely did not mate.

whats the point of saying something if you don't know? Charles fought Burley at Middle; how the Hell did he start at LHW?

[he grant]

Leonard was the more complete fighter .. a much better pound for pound puncher ...

[leverage]

Only one boxer can be rated over Ali IMO & thats Robinson, those 2 are the cream of the crop.
enough said.

[leverage]

leonard is on par with ali as far as ability is concerned but not heart. He was an ultra talented coward who ducked worthy opponents and waited fro fighters to get washed up before he would fight them or give them rematches.

If he would have gotten the decision against duran in their ist fight I honestly doubt tha there would have been a quick rematch. He would have waited until years later like he did agains hearns who imo was robbed of the decision.

[Danny]

Only one boxer can be rated over Ali IMO & thats Robinson, those 2 are the cream of the crop.

Henry Armstrong was a better fighter, P4P, than Ali! He's above Ali in the P4P history books imo!

[redrooster]

I give it to Leonard, but it should be noted that my definition of P4P means that no career Heavyweight, Ali included, is likely to get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to being compared to ATG fighters in a lighter weight. Some might look at it as punishment, but when you're routinely the same size as your opponent or bigger, it doesn't mean as much P4P for me as when someone smaller challenges and defeats very good or great larger fighters. Just my 2 cents on it.

Depth of resume makes it close, but Ali still didn't have a win that beats Leonard's first KO of Hearns or beating Hagler, moving up in weight, after a layoff. Making Duran quit is something Ray really doesn't get enough credit for either, IMO.

P4P, those 3 fighters whom Ray holds wins over are all better than anyone Ali fought.

That Ali fought much more top 10 competition and had superior longevity is what makes it a tough call, so I wouldn't begrudge anyone who chooses Ali. But, I'm rolling with Leonard.

Rock 005, is that Roy in disguise?

[redrooster]

leonard is on par with ali as far as ability is concerned but not heart. He was an ultra talented coward who ducked worthy opponents and waited fro fighters to get washed up before he would fight them or give them rematches.

If he would have gotten the decision against duran in their ist fight I honestly doubt tha there would have been a quick rematch. He would have waited until years later like he did agains hearns who imo was robbed of the decision.

That's logic we can all live with :good

[junior-soprano]

definetly ali

[rodney]

Ray Leonard doesnt even come close.

Muhammed Ali is indeed The Greatest.
Always will be.
There will never be another like him.

[Gesta]

Ali by a bit.

Leonard's resume is lacking some what after his big wins over the fab four, where Ali has a very deep resume after his big wins.

[Stonehands89]

Only one boxer can be rated over Ali IMO & thats Robinson, those 2 are the cream of the crop.
Only one??
Harry Greb.
Ezzard Charles.
Roberto Duran.
Henry Armstrong.
Sam Langford.

-and those are inarguable.

[Stonehands89]

I'd say that Ezzard is top 5 or 6... Ali is top 10 or 12... and Leonard is somewhere within the top 20.

[Azumah1]

Who do you consider to be better,pound for pound out of Muhammad Ali and Sugar Ray Leonard ? As far as the textbook goes I would give this one to Leonard,yet Ali seemed to possess more imponderables like snatching victory from the jaws of defeat. Also winning fights by unorthodox means. For example I could n't imagine Leonard in his early thirties beating a middleweight equivalent of George Foreman via the rope-a-dope technique.
ARE YOU SHITTING ME!!! Look i aint one of those guys who says Ali walked on water and is the greatest of all time.... but Leornard ahead of Ali!!! Do me a favour! Ray was great (an absolute prick) but a great fighter! However his cowardly avoidance of Marv in his prime must go down as the greatest weasel moment in boxing history. He didnt want Marv in his prime and also was never going to hang around to see just how good that kid 'The Lone Star Cobra' was!!!

[Stevie G]

he most definitely did not mate.

whats the point of saying something if you don't know? Charles fought Burley at Middle; how the Hell did he start at LHW?
Hands up ! I was a bit off chronologically,but if you care to study Charles' record,you'll see that at one point he had several fights around the 175 lb mark. Archie Moore was one of his opponents.

['Ben']

I personally think they're equally as good as each other. I'd like to go into more depth about it but I just can't say one is better than the other....

[Flea Man]

Hands up ! I was a bit off chronologically,but if you care to study Charles' record,you'll see that at one point he had several fights around the 175 lb mark. Archie Moore was one of his opponents.

yes, he is a famous LHW. are you thick or somethin?

[Barney]

It does my heart good to see Ali's talents appreciated so highly.

[Silver]

Ali for sure. leonard, while having an outstanding resume, has some room for debate, like the hagler fight, leonard-hearns 2. ali biggest wins, liston, frazier, he won with no debate

[Stevie G]

leonard is on par with ali as far as ability is concerned but not heart. He was an ultra talented coward who ducked worthy opponents and waited fro fighters to get washed up before he would fight them or give them rematches.

If he would have gotten the decision against duran in their ist fight I honestly doubt tha there would have been a quick rematch. He would have waited until years later like he did agains hearns who imo was robbed of the decision.
IMO You're dead right with this one. Good post.

[Stevie G]

yes, he is a famous LHW. are you thick or somethin?
Can we keep this debate adult ? I like a passionate arguement as much as anyone,but can we keep puerile insults out of it ?

[ThinBlack]

Ray Leonard was the man for a time, in his prime, but Muhammad Ali fought in the Golden Era of Heavyweights and beat everyone.Ray loses out to Muhammad on this one.And Muhammad did it over two decades.

[manbearpig]

Only one??
Harry Greb.
Ezzard Charles.
Roberto Duran.
Henry Armstrong.
Sam Langford.

-and those are inarguable.

How is Duran "inarguable"? They are really close to one another in any good, unbiased list.

[ironchamp]

Ali....by a country mile.

[slip&counter]

Hands up ! I was a bit off chronologically,but if you care to study Charles' record,you'll see that at one point he had several fights around the 175 lb mark. Archie Moore was one of his opponents.

:lol:

Sorry Stevie, but that was funny.

[kopejh]

Leonard by a mile for me. I don't think it's fair to compare heavyweight greats to welterweight ones. they are in a different class skill-wise

[TAC602]

ARE YOU SHITTING ME!!! Look i aint one of those guys who says Ali walked on water and is the greatest of all time.... but Leornard ahead of Ali!!! Do me a favour! Ray was great (an absolute prick) but a great fighter! However his cowardly avoidance of Marv in his prime must go down as the greatest weasel moment in boxing history. He didnt want Marv in his prime and also was never going to hang around to see just how good that kid 'The Lone Star Cobra' was!!!

And Marv didnt want Spinks in his prime. Everybody has to (and for the most part did) come to Marv.

You know, its funny with Leonard and the way you people view him:

He either waited guys out or he fought them too soon. In the case of Hearns, well, Hearns was still green. Even thogh Leonard put that fight off a year and get this: was accused of ducking him at the time. So which is it? Leonard's also a pussy for utilizing his superior hand speed, foot speed, reach, boxing ability in the second Duran fight. Yup, a coward, even though you just saw him fight Duran flat footed for 15 rounds. Benitez, that 38-0 defensive mastermind, lineal champ... Uhh, he didnt train. All that stuff. Kalule, that 36-0 lineal champ @ 154... I honestly havent heard what sorry ass excuse has been conjured up.

22 Months, 3 Hall Famers and a fourth lineal title holder, combined record @ the time he fought them: 177-1-1.

Leonard is one calculating fuck. Thats why he was never any promoters bitch and made it out the game with his health, wealth and legendary status. Decades later people are still crying about it.

You Cannot Knock The Hustle.

[TAC602]

:good

[TAC602]

Ali for sure. leonard, while having an outstanding resume, has some room for debate, like the hagler fight, leonard-hearns 2. ali biggest wins, liston, frazier, he won with no debate

I realize this post was made in 2009, but it really isnt the poster so much as the content I'm responding to.

I think there was a fair amount of debate regarding the Liston fights. I think when Joe was at his best, he beat Ali. In the second bout, Ali was warned for holding a countless number of times having been stung repeatedly by Frazier's left hook in FOTC. Prior to Thrilla in Manila, Frazier was considered washed up. George Foreman never got a rematch despite being the undefeated, favored champion in the Rumble in the Jungle. There's a seriously strong debate regarding the decisions in Ali's title defenses against Jimmy Young and Ken Norton (III); many felt the Ron Lyle fight was stopped prematurely.

I dont hold any of this against Ali personally, or doubt his greatness in any way. However, people will always pick and choose what they want to pry on and in other cases, turn the other way.

[frankenfrank]

Leonard is overrated but might have a claim 2b a top 20 (I probably still overrate him myself) . Ali doesn't make my top 100 (and unlike every1 else here I actually have a top 100) , i probably overrate Ali as well , as many of Dundee's crimes will probably always remain unknown 2 me . Ali was a fraud , d biggest fraud ever . Leonard was a fraud 2 , as 1 should expect from a Dundee disciple , but as far as I currently know is d still more proven fighter .
Ali's loss 2 Frazier equates Leonard's "loss" 2 Duran .
Leonard was younger than Duran unlike Ali being 2 years older than Frazier , but Ali's loss was more decisive .
Leonard was a cleaner fighter and more dangerous despite it .

[TAC602]

Leonard is overrated but might have a claim 2b a top 20 (I probably still overrate him myself) . Ali doesn't make my top 100 (and unlike every1 else here I actually have a top 100) , i probably overrate Ali as well , as many of Dundee's crimes will probably always remain unknown 2 me . Ali was a fraud , d biggest fraud ever . Leonard was a fraud 2 , as 1 should expect from a Dundee disciple , but as far as I currently know is d still more proven fighter .
Ali's loss 2 Frazier equates Leonard's "loss" 2 Duran .
Leonard was younger than Duran unlike Ali being 2 years older than Frazier , but Ali's loss was more decisive .
Leonard was a cleaner fighter and more dangerous despite it .

Out of sick curiousity what does your top 25 look like frank? :nut :good

[Stevie G]

I'd totally forgotten about this thread :D Just to clarify my own position on this - I do rate Ali as being better than Leonard,overall. Leonard was better as far as 'textbook orthodoxy' goes,but that's all.

[Stevie G]

Leonard is overrated but might have a claim 2b a top 20 (I probably still overrate him myself) . Ali doesn't make my top 100 (and unlike every1 else here I actually have a top 100) , i probably overrate Ali as well , as many of Dundee's crimes will probably always remain unknown 2 me . Ali was a fraud , d biggest fraud ever . Leonard was a fraud 2 , as 1 should expect from a Dundee disciple , but as far as I currently know is d still more proven fighter .
Ali's loss 2 Frazier equates Leonard's "loss" 2 Duran .
Leonard was younger than Duran unlike Ali being 2 years older than Frazier , but Ali's loss was more decisive .
Leonard was a cleaner fighter and more dangerous despite it .
i'd love to see your 90 or so fighters ahead of Ali,Frank !!

[TAC602]

:think

[redrooster]

Who do you consider to be better,pound for pound out of Muhammad Ali and Sugar Ray Leonard ? As far as the textbook goes I would give this one to Leonard,yet Ali seemed to possess more imponderables like snatching victory from the jaws of defeat. Also winning fights by unorthodox means. For example I could n't imagine Leonard in his early thirties beating a middleweight equivalent of George Foreman via the rope-a-dope technique.

which is precisely why you dont see a Micheal Nunn-Ray Leonard bout. Never believed in his contrived comeback ruses. With Ali, his retirement was genuin. Leonard's wasn't.

And when he made his comeback he never gave us the matches we WANTED to see. he'd shine on the legit up N comers like Nunn that wouldve really tested his "potential". Instead, it was always Lalonde or some other guy we didnt care for.

So for me, leonard wasnt the real deal and is much farther down the list than Ali. Sugar did have the better guns; right cross, left hook, body shots, but he wasnt as tough as Ali and lacked Ali's chin

Ali is outside my top 10 while Leonard languishes somewhere in the mid 40s

[frankenfrank]

Since there seem 2b some interest in my P4P list and as a reply 2 redrooster's (and every1's) overrating of Ali I edited and improved my P4P list again and here it is :
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
ppl ask about it like it was a well kept secret .

[DDDUUDDDEE]

And Marv didnt want Spinks in his prime. Everybody has to (and for the most part did) come to Marv.

You know, its funny with Leonard and the way you people view him:

He either waited guys out or he fought them too soon. In the case of Hearns, well, Hearns was still green. Even thogh Leonard put that fight off a year and get this: was accused of ducking him at the time. So which is it? Leonard's also a pussy for utilizing his superior hand speed, foot speed, reach, boxing ability in the second Duran fight. Yup, a coward, even though you just saw him fight Duran flat footed for 15 rounds. Benitez, that 38-0 defensive mastermind, lineal champ... Uhh, he didnt train. All that stuff. Kalule, that 36-0 lineal champ @ 154... I honestly havent heard what sorry ass excuse has been conjured up.

22 Months, 3 Hall Famers and a fourth lineal title holder, combined record @ the time he fought them: 177-1-1.

Leonard is one calculating fuck. Thats why he was never any promoters bitch and made it out the game with his health, wealth and legendary status. Decades later people are still crying about it.

You Cannot Knock The Hustle.

Preach it brother.

Leonard knew how to work the system, and he did it spectacularly.

[FilipMNE]

Since there seem 2b some interest in my P4P list and as a reply 2 redrooster's (and every1's) overrating of Ali I edited and improved my P4P list again and here it is :
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
ppl ask about it like it was a well kept secret .

Did i see the HWs list good, third Valuev??? Purrity 21st :lol: Good list:good :lol:

[TAC602]

Preach it brother.

Leonard knew how to work the system, and he did it spectacularly.

It's actually amazing and little bit sad that when I signed up here, I didn't have the highest opinion of Leonard, and he wasn't a particular favorite of mine although I respected his accomplishments. In a thread that called to list the 10 greatest fighters over the last 40 years I listed them by preference and he was 10th. A few months later, having seen the vitriol and myriad of excuses, he'd probably be listed 3rd at worst.