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View Full Version : Holmes (early 80s) vs. Ali (late 60s)

IntentionalButt
07-29-2009, 05:23 PM
The Larry that beat up Muhammad in defense of the WBC title vs. the Muhammad that beat up the whole world (before slowing down a step post-exile and still beating up Larry in sparring in the early 70s).

This was inspired by both the recent Holmes interview that Rumsfeld and Boxing Girl did on the OTR show, as well as the Classic Forum all-time heavyweights ranking (in which Holmes netted about 1/3 the points as Ali).

Now, I'm not going to try and fight the uphill battle that Holmes rightfully deserved to be #1 (although #3 may be a bit too far a swing in the other direction) - a case can be made, but a case under duress and fought uphill. Ali at his best is hard to deny. But stylistically, if you could put a wrinkle in time and take the closest to prime Ali available (edit: the vintage just preceding the exile) and pit him head-to-head against Larry at his peak in terms of ability (except in this fight, not playing nice and pulling punches as he did in October 1980) - how would the fight play out? :think
Addie
07-29-2009, 05:30 PM
The Larry that beat up Muhammad in defense of the WBC title vs. the Muhammad that beat up Larry in sparring years earlier.

This was inspired by both the recent Holmes interview that Rumsfeld and Boxing Girl did on the OTR show, as well as the Classic Forum all-time heavyweights ranking (in which Holmes netted about 1/3 the points as Ali).

Now, I'm not going to try and fight the uphill battle that Holmes rightfully deserved to be #1 (although #3 may be a bit too far a swing in the other direction) - a case can be made, but a case under duress and fought uphill. Ali at his best is hard to deny. But stylistically, if you could put a wrinkle in time and take the closest to prime Ali available (we'll go with immediately post-"hiatus" given that the what-if period is an unknown quantity) and pit him head-to-head against Larry at his peak in terms of ability (except in this fight, not playing nice and pulling punches as he did in October 1980) - how would the fight play out? :think

Someone needs to explain to me why it's never Holmes (prime) vs Ali (prime)? :huh
IntentionalButt
07-29-2009, 05:33 PM
Someone needs to explain to me why it's never Holmes (prime) vs Ali (prime)? :huh

Is that not more or less what I'm doing right here and now? :?

What would you offer as their respective primes? By early 80s for Larry I mean real early...literally 1980 - when they actually did fight. Do you feel he was past his best by then?
Addie
07-29-2009, 05:35 PM
Is that not more or less what I'm doing right here and now? :?

What would you offer as their respective primes? By early 80s for Larry I mean real early...literally 1980 - when they actually did fight. Do you feel he was past his best by then?

I thought it was common knowledge that the prime Muhammad Ali was the one taking contenders and champions apart in shockingly easy fashion? Liston 1, Folley, Williams, etc. The pre-exile version, of course.
IntentionalButt
07-29-2009, 05:59 PM
I thought it was common knowledge that the prime Muhammad Ali was the one taking contenders and champions apart in shockingly easy fashion? Liston 1, Folley, Williams, etc. The pre-exile version, of course.

I've seen/heard conflicting opinions. We can err on the side of early rather than late (in relation to the dark years many claim "would have been Ali's prime") if you think it will give a provide a more accurate matchup of both fighters at their best. Liston-Folley Ali was nasty.

Changed. :good Vote accordingly. Apologies to the few who already cast theirs (unless it doesn't impact your choice).
Addie
07-29-2009, 06:02 PM
I've seen/heard conflicting opinions. We can err on the side of early rather than late (in relation to the dark years many claim "would have been Ali's prime") if you think it will give a provide a more accurate matchup of both fighters at their best. Liston-Folley Ali was nasty.

Changed. :good Vote accordingly. Apologies to the few who already cast theirs (unless it doesn't impact your choice).

I think Holmes is more successful against a more stationary Ali, which is what we had after his exile. I think the fleet footed Ali of the 60s, is effective at creating angles on Holmes, who was all a bit one dimensional with the way he came on the offensive. Both had great jabs, Ali having the slight edge in handspeed, but it's the intangibles that make him the winner in my book. Ali just seemed to be on a higher plane to everyone else when it came to will, heart, and determination. He always went the extra inch, which is why I think he gets out a closely fought decision.
PetethePrince
07-29-2009, 06:30 PM
I'm confused. Is it prime Ali vs prime Holmes? Personally an early 70's Ali is much more foregone than an early 80's Holmes. Thought this was common knowledge...
IntentionalButt
07-29-2009, 06:48 PM
I'm confused. Is it prime Ali vs prime Holmes? Personally an early 70's Ali is much more foregone than an early 80's Holmes. Thought this was common knowledge...

Late 60's (see thread title...changed about half an hour before your post...). I had originally been thinking FOTC Ali vs. the Holmes that beat him (as the signature versions of each). On second thought, the younger Ali was faster, hungrier, and probably all-around better. Thread has been changed accordingly.
Bill Butcher
07-29-2009, 07:05 PM
64-67 Ali beats 79-82 Holmes in a close but clear decision, it would be a classic technical boxing match with Ali beating him to the punch the majority of the time, speed kills in this one.

Ps. Anyone that votes anyone by KO is living in dreamland.
Robbi
07-29-2009, 07:11 PM
Ali v Holmes in their primes is one of my fav dream matches.
dezbeast
07-29-2009, 07:13 PM
Holmes would have decisioned Ali IMO in what may have been an absolute tactical masterpiece between possibly two of the greatest heavyweight masterboxers ever.
PetethePrince
07-29-2009, 07:22 PM
Ali has just proved so much. His superior mobility and speed let me think he outpoints Holmes in a prime vs prime matchup. Both have terrific recuperative power, but Ali has an edge in strategy and on a mental & thinkers aspect too. Ali has has the slightly better chin to combat Holmes' superior power.

I also think a prime Ali from 66-67 threw more punches and had better stamina. Ali's stamina and punch output in his prime are quite underrated. Anther reason why I see a prime Ali beating a FOTC Frazier (I know that's not related, just a side point).
lefthook31
07-29-2009, 07:45 PM
Ali mostly based on the speed factor. Would be interesting to see who would establish the jab first.
Duodenum
07-29-2009, 11:45 PM
Put Futch instead of Giachetti in Larry's corner, and the Holmes of Cooney and Cobb might be able to pull off a decision win over the mythical Ali of 1968 and 1969, if anybody could. (I wouldn't place any money on that outcome.)

For his style of boxing, the youthful Muhammad was a fast starter, but Folley did have some success in the opening three rounds. Larry was bigger and stronger, with a longer reach and greater durability than Zora. Ali didn't mind giving away bodyshots, and Futch would have had Holmes exploiting that to score points.
The Predator
07-30-2009, 12:06 AM
prime Ali take this one. heīs much faster in his hands, very hard to hit and moves way better than Holmes. It wouldnīt be any KO but Holmes would have a hard night, thatīs for sure. Holmes was a little of a copy of Ali, only not as fast and definetly not as sharp as prime Ali.
Might sound that I donīt give much for Holmes? Wrong, on my list heīs nr 2 or 3 all time.
Itīs just that there has never been a faster HW than a prime Ali and Iīm not just talking handspeed.
The Predator
HomicideHenry
07-30-2009, 01:03 AM
I always thought Holmes jab was more effective than Ali's, but Ali was far more elusive and faster. Larry was a boxer/puncher, while Ali was a stylist. I like Holmes to win this. Holmes of the early 80's was far more superior than anything Ali faced in the 1960's.
Stevie G
07-30-2009, 07:09 AM
Ali,by a clear points verdict. Probably about 9 rounds to 6.
Bill Butcher
07-30-2009, 07:12 AM
I always thought Holmes jab was more effective than Ali's, but Ali was far more elusive and faster. Larry was a boxer/puncher, while Ali was a stylist. I like Holmes to win this. Holmes of the early 80's was far more superior than anything Ali faced in the 1960's.

Prime Ali was superior to anyone Holmes faced in his career as well tho, Ali at least had Frazier & Foreman in the 70s.

Ps. What about Sonny Liston in the 60s ?
Flea Man
07-30-2009, 07:34 AM
I think Holmes by decision. I feel that his jab would disrupt Ali's rhythm. I guses the comeback to that would be;well Liston couldn't disrupt his rhythm. That's more than a fair point, and I have no troubles with anyone picking Ali.

I also think Larry Holmes was the marginally bigger puncher, but only because he seemed to hav 'heavier hands'. If there are any comebacks to this post I have no doubt they will be more than fair, it's as close a fight as you can get IMO.
JohnThomas1
07-30-2009, 08:56 AM
Ali about 9-6.
Mr Butt
07-30-2009, 10:57 AM
I think Holmes by decision. I feel that his jab would disrupt Ali's rhythm. I guses the comeback to that would be;well Liston couldn't disrupt his rhythm. That's more than a fair point, and I have no troubles with anyone picking Ali.

I also think Larry Holmes was the marginally bigger puncher, but only because he seemed to hav 'heavier hands'. If there are any comebacks to this post I have no doubt they will be more than fair, it's as close a fight as you can get IMO.


:good:good