Why Was Robinson Great?

[Chinxkid]

Linked the entire 3 round fight with Graziano. Most everyone agrees this guy was if not the greatest p4p one of the top three or four. Like most things, it's never one thing that makes a fighter great. You could say a guy has a great chin, a great right hand; or a guy has a killer left hook or hand speed rivaled by few; but when you start piling up attributes like these that's when you get into the territory of true greatness...

In this fight with Graziano, Ray is a master at the game of distance. He stays just out of Rocky's reach, circling surprisingly enough to Rocky's right, toward his right hand; but his arc, just at the end of Rcoky's lunge. Also I am once again in awe of Robinson's left hand. Does anybody hook off the jab as well? Double, triple hook off the jab?! Here, he uses his left almost exclusively until he lulls Rocky into expecting yet another left and he gives him one at a little past 8:00, a token, set up hook, positioning Rocky into the ropes. Then comes back with a right, another left to stretch Rocky out, then a payoff KO right hand that's one for the highlight reels. Sweet indeed.

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[TheGreatA]

Another camera angle:

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The way it was with Robinson and Graziano commentating on their fight:

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[PetethePrince]

Stylistically a bad fight for Graziano. Doesn't have the tools or defensive to beat Robinson.

[Chinxkid]

Thoroughly enjoyed those links GreatA, thanks!

Yeah, Pete, Ray was all wrong for Rocky. But Ray was all wrong for alotta guys.

[itrymariti]

This is my favorite ever KO.

[Chinxkid]

This is my favorite ever KO.

You gotta look for a while to find a better example of a boxer frustrating a stalker primarily with movement. Ray senses when Rocky's ripe for finishing, the combination that does it is not all that miraculous, pretty simple really. But the dismantling had already been done, mostly through elusiveness.

[GPater11093]

Robinson is great as he was so naturally gifted and worked hard. He had everything.

Every punch in the book, pefect
ring generalship, perfect
speed, super quick
power, lots of it
footwork, perfect

only thing he lacked was a great defence but he had excellant reflexes and a great offence that covered for it, He is the most complete fighter ever!

[itrymariti]

You gotta look for a while to find a better example of a boxer frustrating a stalker primarily with movement. Ray senses when Rocky's ripe for finishing, the combination that does it is not all that miraculous, pretty simple really. But the dismantling had already been done, mostly through elusiveness.

I liked how Ray just lined him up, patiently took him apart and then ended it with a mouthpiece-popping bomb. Great KO.

[Bill Butcher]

Linked the entire 3 round fight with Graziano. Most everyone agrees this guy was if not the greatest p4p one of the top three or four. Like most things, it's never one thing that makes a fighter great. You could say a guy has a great chin, a great right hand; or a guy has a killer left hook or hand speed rivaled by few; but when you start piling up attributes like these that's when you get into the territory of true greatness...

In this fight with Graziano, Ray is a master at the game of distance. He stays just out of Rocky's reach, circling surprisingly enough to Rocky's right, toward his right hand; but his arc, just at the end of Rcoky's lunge. Also I am once again in awe of Robinson's left hand. Does anybody hook off the jab as well? Double, triple hook off the jab?! Here, he uses his left almost exclusively until he lulls Rocky into expecting yet another left and he gives him one at a little past 8:00, a token, set up hook, positioning Rocky into the ropes. Then comes back with a right, another left to stretch Rocky out, then a payoff KO right hand that's one for the highlight reels. Sweet indeed.

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Thanks for this, Id seen it before but not for a while & from the different camera angle.

Anyone that doesnt have Robinson top of their p4p list is in need of a lie down :dead

[Bill Butcher]

Another camera angle:

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The way it was with Robinson and Graziano commentating on their fight:

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Cheers for those vid`s, never seen that before, really enjoyed it :good :good :good

[round15]

Speed, Power, Accuracy, Athletecism. No other fighter in the history of the sport illustrated all of the qualities that made Robinson the fighter he was.

Only, Ali, Armstrong, maybe a prime Roy Jones Jr and maybe Floyd Mayweather Jr, if he fights long enough can be mentioned in the same sentence as Robinson.

[john garfield]

W.C. Heinz once related an interesting story about Robinson. "One afternoon I got to the gym early, and over in a big corner, in the half light, I saw Robinson working on the big bag. I stood there and marveled at his natural grace, the speed and fluidity with which he turned on his variety of combinations. It seemed to me that at the age of thirty he looked better than ever, and then he stopped and turned around. It was Johnny Saxton. . .”

[Chinxkid]

W.C. Heinz once related an interesting story about Robinson. "One afternoon I got to the gym early, and over in a big corner, in the half light, I saw Robinson working on the big bag. I stood there and marveled at his natural grace, the speed and fluidity with which he turned on his variety of combinations. It seemed to me that at the age of thirty he looked better than ever, and then he stopped and turned around. It was Johnny Saxton. . .”

Haven't seen much of Saxton, JG.

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[Chinxkid]

Any left hand aficionados like to illuminate on Ray's rapid fire hook uppercut? He sure seemed to use it a lot, and in rapid succession, too.

[Duodenum]

When discussing Robinson's greatness, his heart is usually overlooked (as Ali's would have been had he never returned from exile). For a skinny guy like that to never be punched into a stoppage defeat despite competing into his middle 40s over a total of 300 amateur and professional contests suggests something beyond pure athleticism.

[Chinxkid]

When discussing Robinson's greatness, his heart is usually overlooked (as Ali's would have been had he never returned from exile). For a skinny guy like that to never be punched into a stoppage defeat despite competing into his middle 40s over a total of 300 amateur and professional contests suggests something beyond pure athleticism.

Yeah, all the great ones had to have it. It's easy to miss in guys like him who had so much talent they made it look effortless, but anybody who broke the "Bull", what, four out of five times, had to also be a pretty tough son of a bitch.

[GPater11093]

W.C. Heinz once related an interesting story about Robinson. "One afternoon I got to the gym early, and over in a big corner, in the half light, I saw Robinson working on the big bag. I stood there and marveled at his natural grace, the speed and fluidity with which he turned on his variety of combinations. It seemed to me that at the age of thirty he looked better than ever, and then he stopped and turned around. It was Johnny Saxton. . .”

haha

i like it. Saxton was a good boxer in the mould of Robinson but not the same league. Beat Basilio more convinclingly though IMO. Then got destroyed in the rematch in an amzing fight.

Basilios always a problem for boxers like Robinson, Saxton etc...

Haven't seen much of Saxton, JG.

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Saxtons a good fighter in the mould of Robinson. was a talented fighter in his day.

Any left hand aficionados like to illuminate on Ray's rapid fire hook uppercut? He sure seemed to use it a lot, and in rapid succession, too.

I like it very quick and clever the way he used it. He uses it against LaMotta 3 times in a row at one point

[Stonehands89]

Robinson may have been even greater than we know.

He could have easily taken the LHW title from Maxim had that bout taken place indoors or later in the year -and I seem to remember that it was originally supposed to.

Robinson should have gotten the WW title shot far earlier than he did. Like FIVE YEARS earlier. He was avoided like the black plague and was lucky he didn't become another member of Murderers' Row.... Neither Freddie Cochran nor Marty Servo -already beaten by Ray twice, gave him a shot.

Although we all know that he handled Sammy Angott pretty easily twice, what many don't know is that Angott was NBA LW champion during the first bout, and both fighters came in just a pound over the 135 weight limit. Robinson had only 20 fights at the time. When he whipped him the second time, Angott was World LW Champion, though Robinson came in closer to the WW weight limit. Both were non-title fights -Robinson, then called "The Harlem Flash" was shafted twice over.

Imagine: Sugar Ray Robinson....Lightweight Champion of the World, Welterweight Champion of the World, Middleweight Champion of the World, Light Heavyweight Champion of the World. It easily could have happened like this, and probably should have but for a couple of twists of fate.

[TheGreatA]

Agreed with the above. Robinson with a little more luck could have been a champion in 4 divisions, which would have been incredible.

I believe it was Charley Burley who said:

"You know, to me the most remarkable thing about Ray's career is that he didn't even get a shot at the welterweight title til he was 26- or the middleweight title til' he was 30! You think he was the greatest? What do you think he'd a been if he'd gotten his chances when he deserved them? You wanna know the truth? If I coulda' got my shot, I wouldn't have risked it fighting someone like Ray."

[Chinxkid]

Thanks for the recent additions to this thread on maybe the most enigmatic fighter in history. I'm interested in just what it was about his arsenal that set him so far above the rest of the field, then and now. Can we attempt to zero in on a few of the attributes that set him apart? I seem to want to focus on his left hand.

[Barney]

If I were to choose a fight that showed Ray's greatness it would be this one. Graziano is not IMO an all time great. Tough strong, but one dimensional. His game is shown in fights like those he had with Zale. Facing a matador like Robinson it was like facing off against the wind and being hit by a thunderbolt from out of a blue sky.


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[GPater11093]

Robinson may have been even greater than we know.

He could have easily taken the LHW title from Maxim had that bout taken place indoors or later in the year -and I seem to remember that it was either originally supposed to.

Robinson should have gotten the WW title shot far earlier than he did. Like FIVE YEARS earlier. He was avoided like the black plague and was lucky he didn't become another member of Murderers' Row.... Neither Freddie Cochran nor Marty Servo -already beaten by Ray twice, gave him a shot.

Although we all know that he handled Sammy Angott pretty easily twice, what many don't know is that Angott was NBA LW champion during the first bout, and both fighters came in just a pound over the 135 weight limit. Robinson had only 20 fights at the time. When he whipped him the second time, Angott was World LW Champion, though Robinson came in closer to the WW weight limit. Both were non-title fights -Robinson, then called "The Harlem Flash" was shafted twice over.

Imagine: Sugar Ray Robinson....Lightweight Champion of the World, Welterweight Champion of the World, Middleweight Champion of the World, Light Heavyweight Champion of the World. It easily could have happened like this, and probably should have but for a couple of twists of fate.

but it could be said he got more luck than other black fighters. Like the murderers row if they got some of his luck they could have been world champions.

Even his achievements as they stand are pretty amazing.

[Enigmadanks]

Anybody that has the real "Sugar" outside of their top 2 obviously hasn't seen enough footage of the guy..he had power in both hands, great combinations, and his will to win was unparalleled ---look back at his rematch against Randy Turpin to win back his middlewight title....Hands down the greatest ever- by a landslide....

[GPater11093]

i was looking for this thread but couldnt find it

i watched the 17 mins HLs of Robinson vs Docuson, and it hit me (like a Robinson left hook)

That left handed hook/uppercut Chinx was asking about. It was so effective as you couldnt see it coming, it was thrown at exactly the right angle where you just couldnt see it.

[Chinxkid]

I have to admit that I'd never taken conscious notice of it. But now that I have I see that Ray used it a lot, and what made it especially effective was he stepped with it. While he was connecting with the first or second one he was already on his way to another location. Good heads up, Greg.

[Chinxkid]

Anybody that has the real "Sugar" outside of their top 2 obviously hasn't seen enough footage of the guy..he had power in both hands, great combinations, and his will to win was unparalleled ---look back at his rematch against Randy Turpin to win back his middlewight title....Hands down the greatest ever- by a landslide....

Not yes, but hell yes, to your bolded text. Ray on the surface made it look effortless, but get him in a fight, a real right, and this guy had heart to burn.

[GPater11093]

I have to admit that I'd never taken conscious notice of it. But now that I have I see that Ray used it a lot, and what made it especially effective was he stepped with it. While he was connecting with the first or second one he was already on his way to another location. Good heads up, Greg.

took me a while to notice it against Docuson but he dropped him with it.

[Chinxkid]

took me a while to notice it against Docuson but he dropped him with it.

Ha! Yeah Greg. I guess it took Docusen a good while to notice it too.

[GPater11093]

Ha! Yeah Greg. I guess it took Docusen a good while to notice it too.

yeh :lol:

it looked a great fight though Docuson never gave up right till the end

[Chinxkid]

yeh :lol:

it looked a great fight though Docuson never gave up right till the end

Yeah, he was a great fighter. Check my avatar location and date. Bernie was on the same card that night, took a UD from Gene Burton. Kid Gavilan was on that card too, with another never say die kind of fighter, Vinnie Rossano.

[GPater11093]

Yeah, he was a great fighter. Check my avatar location and date. Bernie was on the same card that night, took a UD from Gene Burton. Kid Gavilan was on that card too, with another never say die kind of fighter, Vinnie Rossano.

Nice nugget of history there.

What fighter is your Dad in your avater.

[Chinxkid]

Nice nugget of history there.

What fighter is your Dad in your avater.

The one in the white trunks, missing! No, but that was one of his biggest wins a ten round decision from Herbie Kronowitz. The old man broke his right wrist in the second round.

[GPater11093]

The one in the white trunks, missing! No, but that was one of his biggest wins a ten round decision from Herbie Kronowitz. The old man broke his right wrist in the second round.

Thats a good picture. Captures fighting quite well.

your Dad never had it easy.

[Chinxkid]

Thats a good picture. Captures fighting quite well.

your Dad never had it easy.

No, he didn't. He never did. It breaks my heart to think of it, but it's true. I'll talk to you soon, my friend. Chinx

[GPater11093]

No, he didn't. He never did. It breaks my heart to think of it, but it's true. I'll talk to you soon, my friend. Chinx

A tough life can be good in many ways though Chinx, you see the guys out in the street and there all real happy nothing gets them down.

well speak soon

[Chinxkid]

A tough life can be good in many ways though Chinx, you see the guys out in the street and there all real happy nothing gets them down.

well speak soon

This seems appropriate here...

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[GPater11093]

This seems appropriate here...

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is that your Dad and Sugar Ray?

[Chinxkid]

It is, probably in the mid '60's.

[dpw417]

Thanks for sharing,Chinx. Nice picture.

[Chinxkid]

Thanks for sharing,Chinx. Nice picture.

My pleasure, thank you.

[Woddy]

Whoever said Robinson was great?

[GPater11093]

that was a nice picture Chinx, thats definitly Charley Zivic but whos that next to him

[Chinxkid]

that was a nice picture Chinx, thats definitly Charley Zivic but whos that next to him

Can't be sure, but he looks familiar.

[GPater11093]

Can't be sure, but he looks familiar.

:lol:

[Chinxkid]

Watching this clip, I'm hit with how balanced a fighter Robinson was. Good with both hands, fast, hit hard, took a good shot, and of course weight distribution. But also balance in the sense of offense and defense. A lot of fighters we would have no trouble quantifying as great, like Joe Frazier, Willie Pep, Mike Tyson, Pernell Whitaker, I think we'd classify them as either more offensive or more defensive fighters. But with Robinson, that's not so easy to do. Like all walks of life, it's the guys that can do it all that stand out as the greatest. Robinson was a great counter puncher, as well. Actually in his case don't know if we can even call it COUNTER punching, because often, as soon as his guy commits, Robinson sees the opening, and delivers a counter to his movement, not his punch.

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[Chinxkid]

Robinson wins 1939 Golden Glove Championship...
as a Featherweight.


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[Sweet Pea]

Watching this clip, I'm hit with how balanced a fighter Robinson was. Good with both hands, fast, hit hard, took a good shot, and of course weight distribution. But also balance in the sense of offense and defense. A lot of fighters we would have no trouble quantifying as great, like Joe Frazier, Willie Pep, Mike Tyson, Pernell Whitaker, I think we'd classify them as either more offensive or more defensive fighters. But with Robinson, that's not so easy to do. Like all walks of life, it's the guys that can do it all that stand out as the greatest. Robinson was a great counter puncher, as well. Actually in his case don't know if we can even call it COUNTER punching, because often, as soon as his guy commits, Robinson sees the opening, and delivers a counter to his movement, not his punch.
I'd definitely say Robinson was much more an offensive fighter than a defensive one, or at least better when he went into offensive mode in comparison to his boxing mode. Don't get me wrong, he was a good out-boxer as well, but I've always thought he was a lot better when he was letting his hands go. He's one of the best combination punchers I've ever seen, and one of the best in a shoot-out. In that sense, I think he's one of a kind, but as an out-boxer I don't think he was really among the best ever, despite what many will tell you. He had an excellent jab and very good footwork, though. He was just a bit too lacking defensively to be be as highly regarded a pure boxer as he is. His defensive skills were sufficient, and when focused on, could in fact be very good, but most of the time his offense was his defense.

Even against LaMotta, I thought Ray was in command more when he let his hands go as opposed to when he was moving and jabbing off the backfoot. This was against a badly weight-drained LaMotta, and the number of clean shots Robinson was taking doesn't bode well for his argument as a top defensive fighter. It was only when he unleashed the beast that he was able to halt and even back up the Raging Bull.

It's true what you say about his countering ability, but mostly due to his handspeed and instinctive reflexes, rather than innate defensive awareness. That falls more into his offensive skills than his defensive ones.

[GPater11093]

good post Pea i agree with that

i was speaking to JG about Ray Robinson and he provided a great quote

hes a consumate professional in all areas.

Abit what like Chinx is saying

[Nemesis]

Why do people always seem to say Robinson was moving backwards when he knocked out fullmer? His feet were clearly set (for the) KO.

[TheGreatA]

Why do people always seem to say Robinson was moving backwards when he knocked out fullmer? His feet were clearly set (for the) KO.

Here's Robinson knocking Bobby Dykes silly while moving backwards:

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6:45

[Nemesis]

Here's Robinson knocking Bobby Dykes silly while moving backwards:

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6:45
I'm not knocking SRR, he was the most versatile fighter of all time. I just dont like people re-writing history.

I thought I had most of Ray's fights (ca. 20-25), but this Dykes footage is news to me, good stuff.

Out of curiosity mate, anymore Rare Robinson footage to be uploaded to Youtube?

[TheGreatA]

I'm not knocking SRR, he was the most versatile fighter of all time. I just dont like people re-writing history.

I thought I had most of Ray's fights (ca. 20-25), but this Dykes footage is news to me, good stuff.

Out of curiosity mate, anymore Rare Robinson footage to be uploaded to Youtube?

I agree it's a bit of a myth (Robinson-Fullmer II that is) but I thought I'd post that video since it fit the topic.

Robinson vs Docusen, Fusari, Stretz, Villemain, Stock, Van Dam & Walzack are uploaded.

I'm hoping that Robinson vs Angott/Abrams/Becket/Riccio/Flores/Barnes will be there soon for all to see.

[fists of fury]

Maybe the most amazing thing about Robinson is that after 201 fights...his speech was still perfect.

[red cobra]

One of the most poetically beautiful ko's ever...it's the way Robinson moves right after that flash kd Rocky scored...the way he maneouvers Rocky and moves into position to end it the way he did.

[TheGreatA]

Maybe the most amazing thing about Robinson is that after 201 fights...his speech was still perfect.

He really didn't have any marks on his face either, kind of like Ali.

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[teeto]

Great thread Chinx. Very nice post by Stonehands as well.

[Nemesis]

I agree it's a bit of a myth (Robinson-Fullmer II that is) but I thought I'd post that video since it fit the topic.

Robinson vs Docusen, Fusari, Stretz, Villemain, Stock, Van Dam & Walzack are uploaded.

I'm hoping that Robinson vs Angott/Abrams/Becket/Riccio/Flores/Barnes will be there soon for all to see.
looking forward to it :good

[Chinxkid]

I'd definitely say Robinson was much more an offensive fighter than a defensive one, or at least better when he went into offensive mode in comparison to his boxing mode. Don't get me wrong, he was a good out-boxer as well, but I've always thought he was a lot better when he was letting his hands go. He's one of the best combination punchers I've ever seen, and one of the best in a shoot-out. In that sense, I think he's one of a kind, but as an out-boxer I don't think he was really among the best ever, despite what many will tell you. He had an excellent jab and very good footwork, though. He was just a bit too lacking defensively to be be as highly regarded a pure boxer as he is. His defensive skills were sufficient, and when focused on, could in fact be very good, but most of the time his offense was his defense.

Even against LaMotta, I thought Ray was in command more when he let his hands go as opposed to when he was moving and jabbing off the backfoot. This was against a badly weight-drained LaMotta, and the number of clean shots Robinson was taking doesn't bode well for his argument as a top defensive fighter. It was only when he unleashed the beast that he was able to halt and even back up the Raging Bull.

It's true what you say about his countering ability, but mostly due to his handspeed and instinctive reflexes, rather than innate defensive awareness. That falls more into his offensive skills than his defensive ones.

Great post, Pea, and I agree that Robinson was more an offensive fighter than a defensive one; and you make a great point in, "most of the time his offense was his defense."

You know, reading FromWithin's great post about Robinson this morning, a couple of things stood out. The first has nothing to do with him as a boxer but everything to do with him as a man, and that's what his wife and son had to say about his abusive behavior towards her. But the second point has everything to do with Ray as a fighter and maybe fighters in general. What his first New York trainer, George Gainford said about Ray not being anything that special at first, but one thing he had was a strong desire to learn. The first to get to the gym and the last to leave, Ray always had a lot of questions about the science of the sport, etc. Gainford later on bragging about his being the greatest trainer because he trained Sugar Ray Robinson, and that claim challenged by ... Why aren't all your fighters as good, then? If you watched Ray's golden glove bout I linked, I think what you saw was a young man with natural gifts but quite raw, and I think this begs the question ... Was it Ray's pride, work ethic, ego, that would not allow him to be satisfied with second best?

[GPater11093]

Great post, Pea, and I agree that Robinson was more an offensive fighter than a defensive one; and you make a great point in, "most of the time his offense was his defense."

You know, reading FromWithin's great post about Robinson this morning, a couple of things stood out. The first has nothing to do with him as a boxer but everything to do with him as a man, and that's what his wife and son had to say about his abusive behavior towards her. But the second point has everything to do with Ray as a fighter and maybe fighters in general. What his first New York trainer, George Gainford said about Ray not being anything that special at first, but one thing he had was a strong desire to learn. The first to get to the gym and the last to leave, Ray always had a lot of questions about the science of the sport, etc. Gainford later on bragging about his being the greatest trainer because he trained Sugar Ray Robinson, and that claim challenged by ... Why aren't all your fighters as good, then? If you watched Ray's golden glove bout I linked, I think what you saw was a young man with natural gifts but quite raw, and I think this begs the question ... Was it Ray's pride, work ethic, ego, that would not allow him to be satisfied with second best?

Its surely a mixture of all of them.

You notice about all the great boxers when they first start they always work hard are first in thegym last out, so could we say that that is what talent is?

All of us are capable but only a few are willing.

[Chinxkid]

Its surely a mixture of all of them.

You notice about all the great boxers when they first start they always work hard are first in thegym last out, so could we say that that is what talent is?

All of us are capable but only a few are willing.

I know your heart's all in it Greg, and that's beautiful. But there have been some great ones that didn't work so hard. But I agree with you, it surely is a mixture of many characteristics, not the least of which I'm sure is athleticism. But pride seems to stand out as one of the important intangibles. Marciano had it, Ali had it, Ray Leonard had it, the list could go on for quite a while.

[GPater11093]

I know your heart's all in it Greg, and that's beautiful. But there have been some great ones that didn't work so hard. But I agree with you, it surely is a mixture of many characteristics, not the least of which I'm sure is athleticism. But pride seems to stand out as one of the important intangibles. Marciano had it, Ali had it, Ray Leonard had it, the list could go on for quite a while.

Prides definitly in it but surely a part of pride is wanting to turn up to the gym to do your best every day.

There has been great ones who were lazy but i bet when they was kids and learning they worked very very hard

[Chinxkid]

I agree with you for the most part. I just think there are so many things that go into making a great fighter, and as many combinations of those things as there are great fighters.

[GPater11093]

I agree with you for the most part. I just think there are so many things that go into making a great fighter, and as many combinations of those things as there are great fighters.

nice wee saying there. Its true i been thinking about it you get the guys who give it their all but just seem to fall short. Maybe its a special 'x' factor as it cant be 1 thing. As you could say the guy dosent have enough speed but Monzon wasnt fast or the guy dosent have a big punch but Whittaker didnt have a big punch etc....

Also theres fighters who die young or are handicapped in a way.