Roy Jones jnr, thoughts please.

[Robbi]

I've never been able to bracket Jones under a fighters I either like or dislike. Anyone else the same? My opinions on him have always been split. Not a lover, but not quite a hater either.

[stevebhoy87]

I'm a massive fan of jones, one of the few fighters ever that i can watch time and time again and still be in total awe of what he could do in a ring and he did do it against top level boxers not just bums.

However i can also see the other side of the coin with jones, he did infuriate me when he was at his best, there was some fights where he was going through the motions, clowing about with fighters, some who shouldn't have been in the same ring as him. i don't think we seen enough of roy at his top level, but when he was motivated and at his absolute best, close to unstoppable IMO and a real joy at least for me to watch

[Bill Butcher]

Roy Jones jnr, thoughts please. :think

Roy Jones ability > Roy Jones career.

Not saying he had a bad career, he had a great career but lets be honest, someone with this guys outrageous ability should be being discussed in the same mould as the original Sugar Ray but he fucked it up IMHO.

[Flea Man]

Agree with the above post.

Jones is one of my favourites. Weren't any 'matinee' fights for him but the likes of Michalewski wouldn't have done him a disservice (Roy should've been wanting that fight, with a record like that you'd want to prove your superiority) and I wish he'd retired after the first Tarvr fight.

All these intangibles have been brought up post-Tarver 2. People think Roy 'faked' his way through that many years and say he hand-picked opponents to avoid getting his 'glass jaw' exposed. No one with a glass jaw is gonna' campaign at Heavy, even against a relatively 'soft hitter' like Ruiz.

I stick by the theory of Roy's legs deserting him after years of weight-jumping.

[rekcutnevets]

Posted by fleaman
I stick by the theory of Roy's legs deserting him after years of weight-jumping.
I use to wonder the same thing. Then, when Jone's faced Tarver in their 3rd fight, his legs looked good as new. Jones was physically superior to most anyone in his 3rd fight with Tarver. Jones' psyche is what was altered there.

Jones is hard to bracket for purists, because Jones fought with a style that not all can benefit from. I'm guilty of looking for appreciation elsewhere. As a child, I use to imagine myself as the next Whitaker combined Chavez combined with McCallum. I thought that would give me technical superiority to anyone. I was still in high school when Jones beat Toney for the 168 lb title. That performance left me with the impression that it was great, and something I could never do. That performance reminded us that some are above our normal perception of technique.

I watched Jones fight on against seemingly inferior opposition. The opposition would have been fine for any other fighter, but not one with Jones' ability.

After Tarver, the usually forgivable age of 35, old Jones emerged. This Jones was not devoid of talent, but it was less than what we expected.

Roy Jones' prime is still one of great wonderment. Jones is still capable of being a top 10 fighter at super middle and light heavy several years past his best. Jones just doesn't realize that he is older. Jones has recently brought his father in to remind him of the fighter that he once was. Sadly, he isn't bringing anyone in to tell him that he is not the fighter he once was. Jones has much more left than many fighters his age possesses. Jones needs someone to show him how to fight with what he has left, instead of trying to remind him of what he was.

[elindiomonzon]

If they would had give him a chin, he would have be the best fighter ever. He has charisma, unbelievable speed and reflex, good power, excelent technique, heart, stamina.

[mr. magoo]

I've never been able to bracket Jones under a fighters I either like or dislike. Anyone else the same? My opinions on him have always been split. Not a lover, but not quite a hater either.


He was cocky. No question about it. Jones was sort of like the Floyd Mayweather of the 90's, if that's a reasonable comparison. But I do think that he was probably the best fighter of that decade, or at least one of the very top 3. When he was hot, he was very explosive and could demolish 20 something and 0 fighters like going through thin air. His rematch with Montell Griffin was one such fight. Jones had his flat performances, and in truth did not exactly live in an era of superb middleweights and lightheavys. But, he did show that he was a notch above even some of the best champions of the 90's.

[Bill Butcher]

If they would had give him a chin, he would have be the best fighter ever. He has charisma, unbelievable speed and reflex, good power, excelent technique, heart, stamina.

It had nothing to do with his chin, it had more to do with Roy dropping back down to 175 after his biggest accomplishment, beating Ruiz at HWT & not fighting every possible great opponent to test his ATG ability to the full.

Roy`s chin was barely touched until he turned 34 yrs old, with 90% of his career done & dusted.
His skills eroded after that age & sticking Hagler`s chin on him aint gonna give him the offensive weaponry to do what he used to do in his prime, he would have still lost to the Johnson`s & Calzaghe`s as they had more left in the tank, plain & simple.

:good

[good right hand]

the thoughts above paint rjj to the very minor of details.

the one thought i have that stand out above all other is that in boxing history, there where 3 boxers (or 4) to me that where percieved by the entire world in my eyes as utterly invicible. so invicible that they truly represented the best and most gifted of a human being and could not be beaten.

jones fought with such a amusing and charismatic style that he dared common fans to watch boxing like when ali and tyson where in their primes.


muhammad ali
mike tyson
roy jones jr.

and i believe jim jeffries

their primes where utterly invincible when they where young and undefeated. i remember when i learned about tyson's and jones' first losses it shattered my whole angle of looking at them more so then any other fighters.

i agree with both bill and elindiomonzon,

i think his drop down in weight was the reason why jones was blasted out quickly, i can think of chris byrd and how durable he was to then drop down to middle and get knocked out. but also, his confidence was very shattered from that loss, he may never be what he was before... and that may equate in a way to a fighters ability to take a punch.

but like rekcutnevets said, and i agree with this utterly.

he looked like his old self in the 3rd fight, he was all roy jones jr. except the oozing confidence and imo that why he lost. i was gettng absolutely frustrated watching that fight, when he start to show boat, he began to win, when he started to uppercut off the ropes, tarver was getting weary. it was the devastating knock out that made "his record skip" and he never had the dominant rythm that he could use to dectate a fight. i could see him trying so hard to find that rythm despite his advanced age in the calzaghe fight, but he was losing a step at that point.

one other opinion too that i would like to say,

jones opposition is horribly horribly horribly underated. it makes me cringe to hear that jones fought no one or he wasted his talent or anything like that. the "nobodies" he fought where distinguished journeymen or fringe contenders like merqui sosa, thomas tate, derrick harmon, david talesco where very able fighters.

and imho, i have jones the 10th greatest fighter of all time. haha, i must be in some minority for that, but i stand by it.

[Bill Butcher]

the thoughts above paint rjj to the very minor of details.

the one thought i have that stand out above all other is that in boxing history, there where 3 boxers (or 4) to me that where percieved by the entire world in my eyes as utterly invicible. so invicible that they truly represented the best and most gifted of a human being and could not be beaten.

jones fought with such a amusing and charismatic style that he dared common fans to watch boxing like when ali and tyson where in their primes.


muhammad ali
mike tyson
roy jones jr.

and i believe jim jeffries

their primes where utterly invincible when they where young and undefeated. i remember when i learned about tyson's and jones' first losses it shattered my whole angle of looking at them more so then any other fighters.

i agree with both bill and elindiomonzon,

i think his drop down in weight was the reason why jones was blasted out quickly, i can think of chris byrd and how durable he was to then drop down to middle and get knocked out. but also, his confidence was very shattered from that loss, he may never be what he was before... and that may equate in a way to a fighters ability to take a punch.

but like rekcutnevets said, and i agree with this utterly.

he looked like his old self in the 3rd fight, he was all roy jones jr. except the oozing confidence and imo that why he lost. i was gettng absolutely frustrated watching that fight, when he start to show boat, he began to win, when he started to uppercut off the ropes, tarver was getting weary. it was the devastating knock out that made "his record skip" and he never had the dominant rythm that he could use to dectate a fight. i could see him trying so hard to find that rythm despite his advanced age in the calzaghe fight, but he was losing a step at that point.

one other opinion too that i would like to say,

jones opposition is horribly horribly horribly underated. it makes me cringe to hear that jones fought no one or he wasted his talent or anything like that. the "nobodies" he fought where distinguished journeymen or fringe contenders like merqui sosa, thomas tate, derrick harmon, david talesco where very able fighters.

and imho, i have jones the 10th greatest fighter of all time. haha, i must be in some minority for that, but i stand by it.

Nothing wrong with Jones being 10th IMO, he was class.

Ps. Id perhaps add Robinson to that invincible list.

[PowerPuncher]

Roy Jones jnr, thoughts please. :think

Roy Jones ability > Roy Jones career.

Not saying he had a bad career, he had a great career but lets be honest, someone with this guys outrageous ability should be being discussed in the same mould as the original Sugar Ray but he fucked it up IMHO.

Good post, his career gets pretty underrated in truth too, mainly because he made it all look so easy

[PowerPuncher]

Agree with the above post.

Jones is one of my favourites. Weren't any 'matinee' fights for him but the likes of Michalewski wouldn't have done him a disservice (Roy should've been wanting that fight, with a record like that you'd want to prove your superiority) and I wish he'd retired after the first Tarvr fight.

All these intangibles have been brought up post-Tarver 2. People think Roy 'faked' his way through that many years and say he hand-picked opponents to avoid getting his 'glass jaw' exposed. No one with a glass jaw is gonna' campaign at Heavy, even against a relatively 'soft hitter' like Ruiz.

I stick by the theory of Roy's legs deserting him after years of weight-jumping.

This is in essence the problem, that and the fact HBO paid him $5-$8m per fight and weren't pushing for big fights, neither were there any PPV blockbusters. I think DM was offered the fight but he wasn't taking it. Lets also not forget RJJ offered BHOPs the rematch for 40% of the purse.

The thing about Jones is he left his jaw out to dry in those KO losses, and you just can't do that, in his prime he slips those shots easily, so he doesn't have to worry about bracing himself, but in those losses his head was stationary and just hanging out there

Jones was also 35 and had probably been slow fading from 1998 onwards and probably the reason he wanted a Tyson fight so bad

Jones also took flush rights from Ruiz and Hopkins amongst others in his career, and Ruiz was a 230lb HW who kd'ed Holy with the same shot. He also took plenty of shots in the first Tarver fight

[PowerPuncher]

He was cocky. No question about it. Jones was sort of like the Floyd Mayweather of the 90's,.

Except Jones probably wouldnt lose a round against Castillo, DLH, Hatton, Judah. Jones was far more gifted than Lil Floyd

[DINAMITA]

I'm a self-confessed lover of Jones. Plain and simple, I think he was fanfuckingtastic.

[Bill Butcher]

I'm a self-confessed lover of Jones. Plain and simple, I think he was fanfuckingtastic.

That Jones-Calzaghe fight must have been hard to watch for you :D

[redrooster]

Roy Jones-hated by the common fight fan who want to go on kidding themselves and who after dozens of confirmations of his brilliance, just want to talk about what he did after the age of 35.

Let's be clear about this: Roy Jones is a true Sugar Ray and this video proves it

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Roy is a boxing God to which Powerpuncher will attest to and a man who I described in an letter to KO magazine as "an outrageously difficult opponent" among other things. Why reminisce over fighters like Charles, Robinson, Louis, and Moore when we've had a living legend like Roy in our midst? That's right, i said legend.

[Robbi]

He was certainly better than Old Hector and Norris. :lol:

[redrooster]

He was certainly better than Old Hector and Norris. :lol:

Maybe, but both were still good enough to destroy Sugar Ray and both proved it. :D

[Robbi]

Maybe, but both were still good enough to destroy Sugar Ray and both proved it. :D

Yes both fought Leonard in his mid and late 30's. Inactive versions as well. :good

[lefthook31]

I dont know how anyone could hate on Jones. Were talking about a natural super middleweight borderline middleweight who cleaned out both the supermiddle and LH division and won the heavyweight title against a proven fighter. So much hate was on him over the Dariusz fight, but DM in my opinion was way more of a hype job, and it was proven later in his career. I think a lot of the way Jones acted was because of his insistence of doing things his way and fighting guys on certain terms. There was a lot of foul play going on in Europe at that time. From guys getting bad decisions, getting sick, getting chemicals in their eyes, etc. There was just too many things happening not to believe some of it might be true. To me, if you want to beat the man you have to come to his turf, and Jones had all of the most recognizeable belts.
Maybe he had some soft touch title defenses, but he had a lot of title defenses, and really I challenge someone to tell me who he didnt fight? A rematch with Hopkins would have been nice, but again Hopkins had a similar personality to Jones, but Jones in my opinion holding the win over Bernard was still the bigger fish. Other than that he fought everyone. I would have liked to see him stay at heavyweight and fight a couple more fights against Byrd and Holyfield, and then retire. Going back down to LH really tarnished his career because it sped up the ageing process.
To me he is the most physically gifted fighter ever. His style was unorthodox but his tremendous speed compensated for it. Like all great fighters, they lose a step and they become a little more ordinary, and this is most likely why Jones decided to go back down to a more natural weight.

[redrooster]

Yes both fought Leonard in his mid and late 30's. Inactive versions as well. :good

five time world champion, undefeated in 11 years and Terry destroyed him so no excuses. Capiche?

Besides, who was favored by all the experts to win?

Hector same advanced age as Leonard in this battle of the relics and Ray still couldnt handle him. Had this battle been held in the 80s the result would have likely been the same.

[rekcutnevets]

Here we go...

[lefthook31]

five time world champion, undefeated in 11 years and Terry destroyed him so no excuses. Capiche?

Besides, who was favored by all the experts to win?

Hector same advanced age as Leonard in this battle of the relics and Ray still couldnt handle him. Had this battle been held in the 80s the result would have likely been the same.
Wow, so using your logic Berbick would have always beaten Ali? No way my friend. Boxer movers age a lot faster, just ask Mr Mullings.

[DINAMITA]

That Jones-Calzaghe fight must have been hard to watch for you :D

It was hard to watch for me, but it should have been far harder to watch for any Calzaghe fan with a shred of integrity. The shame of taking a fight with a man he said in his autobiography he would never fight because he was "shot" (his autobiography was written in 2004 by the way), of dancing around laughing while slapping the piss out of a man that Tarver and Johnson were knocking cold FOUR YEARS earlier.

If Manny Pacquiao or Juan Manuel Marquez or Bernard Hopkins did likewise, I would be gutted. But they never would. Hence why I am a true fan of those guys. :good

[redrooster]

Wow, so using your logic Berbick would have always beaten Ali? No way my friend. Boxer movers age a lot faster, just ask Mr Mullings.

Why does Leonard always get compared with Ali? he's no ALi. In the first place, you can't compare Leonard's defeat to Norris with Ali's loss to Trevor Berbick because Leonard was unbeaten in 11 years and carrying 5 championships during that time. The ring rust had long since come off from the Hagler fight so logically, he should be even better than he was for Hagler (remember, no ring rust)


And even better, he was down at 154, which should make him even that much faster.

Not only that but look at his last performance vs. Duran. he was flawless, his legs in outstanding condition with Ray on his toes for 12 rounds non stop.

No way should Leonard EVER be compared with ALi of the Holmes fight. :nono

The reviews also back my claim that there was absoultely nothing wrong with Leonard going into the Norris fight.

Steve Farhood: "Ray fought the perfect fight"

Tim Ryan at the consclusion of UNO MAS: "What an absolutely brilliant performance!!"

Does that sound like the kind of evaluation of a man who should be compared to Ali of the Berbick fight? Ali was a punching bag with no legs

I just think that Ray never had the kind of experience to handle a man like Norris despite his edge in experience. He never had to deal with a man of Terrys' hand speed. I felt that he wouldnt be able to take the kind of quick, snappy type of punches that Terry could deliver-the kind that had Mugabi reeling around the ring looking for a place to fall.

and once again, I was right. It was just a matter of minutes before Ray found out that facing a foe such as Norris is a precarious experience indeed. fraught with peril every step of the way and just barely survived.

BTW, Ray Leonard IS a great fighter; he just isnt quite good enough to make my top 50

[JohnThomas1]

Maybe, but both were still good enough to destroy Sugar Ray and both proved it. :D

ROOTER - Roy Jones-hated by the common fight fan who want to go on kidding themselves and who after dozens of confirmations of his brilliance, just want to talk about what he did after the age of 35.

;)

[Scorpion]

It had nothing to do with his chin, it had more to do with Roy dropping back down to 175 after his biggest accomplishment, beating Ruiz at HWT & not fighting every possible great opponent to test his ATG ability to the full.

Roy`s chin was barely touched until he turned 34 yrs old, with 90% of his career done & dusted.
His skills eroded after that age & sticking Hagler`s chin on him aint gonna give him the offensive weaponry to do what he used to do in his prime, he would have still lost to the Johnson`s & Calzaghe`s as they had more left in the tank, plain & simple.

:good

I understand using that excuse for the first Tarver fight but the second one? Come on man, he was put on queer street by some pouthpaw even when he was in his prime.

[redrooster]

I understand using that excuse for the first Tarver fight but the second one? Come on man, he was put on queer street by some pouthpaw even when he was in his prime.

You're right Scorpion. You could see even before the second fight began that confidence level-that Tarver knew he owned Roy, asking him if he had his excuses ready. You know what that means. Then he proceeded to blow Roy out of the ring. Roy was never the same after that.

[lefthook31]

The comparison is because they are both boxers with a lot of speed and depend on their speed more than anything.
It is my opinion that fighters like this become old over night. Leonard was not as active as Terry Norris, a fighter clearly coming into his prime. Ray's speed was definitely not the same as it was in 81.
It happened to Norris in the Mullings fight. It happened to Jones Jr too. When these speedsters lose a step, it makes all the difference. They still fight the same but their reaction time isnt the same, so they get hit more. Norris was simply the quicker fighter. You cant say that Rays reaction time and quickness would be same as in his prime. This fight was 14 years after he turned pro. That being said, prime for prime its an interesting fight. Two guys with great speed and similar styles. Norris was beaten by lesser caliber fighters at his best, but a good fight nonetheless.

[rekcutnevets]

Posted by Scorpion
I understand using that excuse for the first Tarver fight but the second one? Come on man, he was put on queer street by some pouthpaw even when he was in his prime.
Jones was 35 when ko'd by Tarver. Unless he embarked on his career at a late age, no 35 year old is in his prime.

Humans' physical peak is normally at 27 years of age. Carl Lewis ran his best official 100 time at age 30, so there is some room for error. You can make the argument that though his physical peak had passed, Bernard Hopkin's technical mastery of his sport became evident in his 30's.

Roy Jones began boxing as a child. Jones did not make any astounding technical advance at a later age. Jones was not shot, I still don't think he is shot, but was not in his prime at age 35.

[lefthook31]

Jones was 35 when ko'd by Tarver. Unless he embarked on his career at a late age, no 35 year old is in his prime.

Humans' physical peak is normally at 27 years of age. Carl Lewis ran his best official 100 time at age 30, so there is some room for error. You can make the argument that though his physical peak had passed, Bernard Hopkin's technical mastery of his sport became evident in his 30's.

Roy Jones began boxing as a child. Jones did not make any astounding technical advance at a later age. Jones was not shot, I still don't think he is shot, but was not in his prime at age 35.
Well I believe Lennox Lewis is an excpetion as well, mostly because of his mental toughness and the fact he was a very big heavyweight where the speed is not as big of a factor for him as it would be for a guy like Jones. As said earlier a guy who relies on his speed and loses a step, still fights the same way. Normally he could react quicker to a counter or moving out of the way, now he's caught or misses with his shots. Jones Jr rarely had more physical advantages (size and strengh) over his opponents besides the speed factor.

[rekcutnevets]

Posted by lefthook31
Well I believe Lennox Lewis is an excpetion as well, mostly because of his mental toughness and the fact he was a very big heavyweight where the speed is not as big of a factor for him as it would be for a guy like Jones.
Lewis is a good example of someone that got better in his 30's. I think a lot of that was a delay in development with Pepe Correa as his trainer. Lewis progressed quite a bit after ditching Correa.

[lefthook31]

Lewis is a good example of someone that got better in his 30's. I think a lot of that was a delay in development with Pepe Correa as his trainer. Lewis progressed quite a bit after ditching Correa.
Definitely. Steward taught him how to fight at range, use his height and improved his balance and inside skills tremendously. That being said it took at little extra work on Lewis part for conditioning, because of his advanced age. Lewis for the most part was a very good pupil. Trained hard consistently and lived clean.

[keith]

I have Jones as the 4th best fighter P4P ever. His legacy will grow as time passes, when he will be measured more by what he has accomplished than what more he could have done.


Keith

[good right hand]

I have Jones as the 4th best fighter P4P ever. His legacy will grow as time passes, when he will be measured more by what he has accomplished than what more he could have done.


Keith


i agree right with you that he is one of the greatest fighters of all time:good

robinson
ali
armstrong
louis/duran
pep
greb
charles
leonard
jones :bbb

[FromWithin]

Definitely. Steward taught him how to fight at range, use his height and improved his balance and inside skills tremendously. That being said it took at little extra work on Lewis part for conditioning, because of his advanced age. Lewis for the most part was a very good pupil. Trained hard consistently and lived clean.

I also think that heavyweights in general go in their prime later than smaller fighters - physically (bigger men tend to take weight during their twenties) and in term of boxing. There are exceptions like Tyson but he was a genetic freak.

[fists of fury]

The first time I saw Roy Jones fight was against Jorge Vaca. He made Vaca, no can, look like a third rate bum and knocked him out inside a round. I knew I was watching someone pretty special that evening.

For me he is undeniably one of the most physically gifted fighters ever to lace 'em up. What he sometimes did in the ring was astonishing, leaving you both amused at how clearly superior to his opponent he was, and impressed at how he went about his business.

He was more that just ridiculously physically blessed though. One still has to make that athleticism work for you, and he did. He had a kind of unorthodox brilliance that made him next to impossible to beat below 175.
I think at 160 he would be a head-to-head nightmare for anyone, be it Robinson, Hagler, Monzon...whomever.
James Toney's technical excellence simply had no answer to Jones' raw speed. And Jones had serious power at 160, too.

I lost track of his career somewhat once he moved to 175. I saw his main fights after that, but not too many of them. I wished he could have stayed at 160 and cemented his place among the greats there. And I have no doubt he would have, had he stayed there.

But having said all that, I cannot call myself a fan. Looking back, there aren't too many really fond memories I have of him fighting. There was no ebb and flow to many (if any) of his fights...no real drama that sticks long in the memory. He fought some guys that had no business being in the ring with him.
What it boils down to really is that I never really got to see Jones show his character in the ring.

[McGrain]

FOF, what about the Calzaghe fight? I thought he showed bags of heart.

[good right hand]

The first time I saw Roy Jones fight was against Jorge Vaca. He made Vaca, no can, look like a third rate bum and knocked him out inside a round. I knew I was watching someone pretty special that evening.

For me he is undeniably one of the most physically gifted fighters ever to lace 'em up. What he sometimes did in the ring was astonishing, leaving you both amused at how clearly superior to his opponent he was, and impressed at how he went about his business.

He was more that just ridiculously physically blessed though. One still has to make that athleticism work for you, and he did. He had a kind of unorthodox brilliance that made him next to impossible to beat below 175.
I think at 160 he would be a head-to-head nightmare for anyone, be it Robinson, Hagler, Monzon...whomever.
James Toney's technical excellence simply had no answer to Jones' raw speed. And Jones had serious power at 160, too.

I lost track of his career somewhat once he moved to 175. I saw his main fights after that, but not too many of them. I wished he could have stayed at 160 and cemented his place among the greats there. And I have no doubt he would have, had he stayed there.

But having said all that, I cannot call myself a fan. Looking back, there aren't too many really fond memories I have of him fighting. There was no ebb and flow to many (if any) of his fights...no real drama that sticks long in the memory. He fought some guys that had no business being in the ring with him.
What it boils down to really is that I never really got to see Jones show his character in the ring.

very insightful post:think

i have heard that his most epic showing is the 1st tarver fight which really showed his vulnerability but he still willed himself to win.

[MAG1965]

Except Jones probably wouldnt lose a round against Castillo, DLH, Hatton, Judah. Jones was far more gifted than Lil Floyd
yeah he was. His skills were probably one of the best boxing ever saw, but his opposition and heart for boxing were not the best. Skillwise incredible. But I am not sure that is enough to put him as one of the ATG. Not to me, but if I rate his skill level he would be top 10 skill level ever. Not fighter ever, but skill level.

[ChrisPontius]

But having said all that, I cannot call myself a fan. Looking back, there aren't too many really fond memories I have of him fighting. There was no ebb and flow to many (if any) of his fights...no real drama that sticks long in the memory. He fought some guys that had no business being in the ring with him.
What it boils down to really is that I never really got to see Jones show his character in the ring.

Very nice post. I would say that in a sense, Jones was a victim of his own superiority. Even the Ruiz fight was a relatively easy win. Then when he loses, he gets blown out twice.

The only fights in his entire career where during any point of a match the end result was not clear is the first Tarver I fight. He really had to dig deep to pull out that win. I think Tarver might have even won that fight if he didn't gave away rounds 5-7.

And like McGrain said, i think the first time he really got to show his fighting heart was against Calzaghe where he was basically losing every round and had a horrendous cut, but never gave in.

[rekcutnevets]

Posted by fists of fury
What it boils down to really is that I never really got to see Jones show his character in the ring.
Posted by ChrisPontius
The only fights in his entire career where during any point of a match the end result was not clear is the first Tarver I fight. He really had to dig deep to pull out that win. I think Tarver might have even won that fight if he didn't gave away rounds 5-7.

And like McGrain said, i think the first time he really got to show his fighting heart was against Calzaghe where he was basically losing every round and had a horrendous cut, but never gave in.
Pontius makes a good point about the first Tarver fight in response to fist of fury's post. I agree Tarver threw the middle rounds away, but Jones pulled it out by digging deep in the final rounds of that fight.

I thought Jones showed a lot of heart in his fight with Glenn Johnson. There was one round, I believe it was the fifth, that was really impressive. Jones was fighting back bravely when hurt in that stanza.

[thejokerswild]

Have to say theres some great discussion here lads. I can't really add anything new other than put me in the "RJJ Ability > RJJ Carrer" Column.

You're only as good as your opponants.

[lefthook31]

Because so much discussion comes up of Roy Jones ducking people I would like to hear some of the opponents he should have faced or allegedly ducked?
The only fight I always wanted to see was Jones against Mclellan, just for stylistic purposes. Unfortunately I knew it would never happen because of their friendship, but I would like to have some opinions on his opponents. Theres always the talk that he should have faced better opposition.

[fists of fury]

You guys are probably right in saying that against Joe and Antonio he showed character. Not Frazier type character, but character. That's fair enough.

[ChrisPontius]

Because so much discussion comes up of Roy Jones ducking people I would like to hear some of the opponents he should have faced or allegedly ducked?
The only fight I always wanted to see was Jones against Mclellan, just for stylistic purposes. Unfortunately I knew it would never happen because of their friendship, but I would like to have some opinions on his opponents. Theres always the talk that he should have faced better opposition.

The ducking thing is wildly exaggerated. McClellan was still fighting at middleweight when Jones was already dominating at 168. When McClellan did make the step up, well, we know what happened.

The only person he should've fought was Michalczewski, but it's not like Darius was jumping on the fight, either. Didn't want to come out of Germany.

[rekcutnevets]

Posted by lefthook31
Because so much discussion comes up of Roy Jones ducking people I would like to hear some of the opponents he should have faced or allegedly ducked?
The only fight I always wanted to see was Jones against Mclellan, just for stylistic purposes. Unfortunately I knew it would never happen because of their friendship, but I would like to have some opinions on his opponents. Theres always the talk that he should have faced better opposition.
Other than Michalczewski, pointed out by ChrisPontius, Nigel Benn is the only fighter Jones may have missed. After Benn's defeat of McClellan, Benn vs Jones was being talked about. Promotional differences prevented that fight. Benn lost to a previous Jones victim, Thulani Malinga, just over a year after defeating McClellan. Not saying the Malinga win really proves anything in Jones' favor, just the fact that Benn was done as a top notch professional within a year of the McClellan fight.

[lefthook31]

I would never have given Benn a chance against Jones Jr. He was too sloppy, and Jones would have easily picked him apart.

[Vanboxingfan]

I dont know how anyone could hate on Jones. Were talking about a natural super middleweight borderline middleweight who cleaned out both the supermiddle and LH division and won the heavyweight title against a proven fighter. So much hate was on him over the Dariusz fight, but DM in my opinion was way more of a hype job, and it was proven later in his career. I think a lot of the way Jones acted was because of his insistence of doing things his way and fighting guys on certain terms. There was a lot of foul play going on in Europe at that time. From guys getting bad decisions, getting sick, getting chemicals in their eyes, etc. There was just too many things happening not to believe some of it might be true. To me, if you want to beat the man you have to come to his turf, and Jones had all of the most recognizeable belts.
Maybe he had some soft touch title defenses, but he had a lot of title defenses, and really I challenge someone to tell me who he didnt fight? A rematch with Hopkins would have been nice, but again Hopkins had a similar personality to Jones, but Jones in my opinion holding the win over Bernard was still the bigger fish. Other than that he fought everyone. I would have liked to see him stay at heavyweight and fight a couple more fights against Byrd and Holyfield, and then retire. Going back down to LH really tarnished his career because it sped up the ageing process.
To me he is the most physically gifted fighter ever. His style was unorthodox but his tremendous speed compensated for it. Like all great fighters, they lose a step and they become a little more ordinary, and this is most likely why Jones decided to go back down to a more natural weight.


Excellent post. I too wish he would have remained at heavyweight and fought some of the smaller guys like Byrd, Holyfield, or Toney, maybe even Tyson, although I wouldn't like his chances. Personally, I think dropping weight once your body gets use to a heavier weight, in terms of muscle, is extremly hard on the body of an elite athlete, especially one over 35. The other option he had was to fight as a cruiserweight.

[McGrain]

Jones would have KO'd Benn early IMO.

[janitor]

Bottom line?

Jones is the biggest underaciever in the history of the sport.

Based on his talent he should have been the next Mickey Walker.

He wasted his talent by taking easy fights when he could have broken down the walls of Jerico.

A few knockout losses would have hurt him less than fighting weak opposition.

Fighting weak opposition is the only thing that could ever have made him anything other than a top pound for pound great.

[McGrain]

Unless he got hit on the chin by a puncher in his prime and stopped moving in his prime, like he did after it...we'll never know now.

[lefthook31]

Bottom line?

Jones is the biggest underaciever in the history of the sport.

Based on his talent he should have been the next Mickey Walker.

He wasted his talent by taking easy fights when he could have broken down the walls of Jerico.

A few knockout losses would have hurt him less than fighting weak opposition.

Fighting weak opposition is the only thing that could ever have made him anything other than a top pound for pound great.
Please explain who should he have faced. Can you list the fighters you think if he would have fought would have elevated his career higher? Im just curious as to who you think?

[keith]

I don't think Jones could have faced anyone that would have silenced his critics when it comes to opposition.

If he took out Dm, would anyone now actually look at that fight as his lynch pin to greatness?? I seriously doubt it. Dm would have been looked at by Jones detractors as just another overprotected Euro fighter that didn't belong in the ring with Jones.

Benn would have been a joke. Jones would have crushed him and detractors would have been asking why he didn't fight Malinga or someone like that.


THough his quality of opposition isn't great, it is more than adequate to qualify his greatness.

Keith

[good right hand]

I don't think Jones could have faced anyone that would have silenced his critics when it comes to opposition.

If he took out Dm, would anyone now actually look at that fight as his lynch pin to greatness?? I seriously doubt it. Dm would have been looked at by Jones detractors as just another overprotected Euro fighter that didn't belong in the ring with Jones.


Keith

i think that it is very true.

[redrooster]

Bottom line?

Jones is the biggest underaciever in the history of the sport.

Based on his talent he should have been the next Mickey Walker.

He wasted his talent by taking easy fights when he could have broken down the walls of Jerico.

A few knockout losses would have hurt him less than fighting weak opposition.

Fighting weak opposition is the only thing that could ever have made him anything other than a top pound for pound great.

Mickey Walker? You're living in the past and there is no comparison in styles at all. I like to think of Roy as more the Sugar Ray type. Much more complete fighter than that bumbling bull dog

[Barney]

I've never been able to bracket Jones under a fighters I either like or dislike. Anyone else the same? My opinions on him have always been split. Not a lover, but not quite a hater either.


He was the kind of fighter I formed a definite opinion of.

he was slick and elusive, like a lighting bolt. All due to his reflexes. Some have it some don't. In that department he had it. Like Ali, whom he resembled in style, he was almost untouchable.

Unlike Ali he was not able to contend with continuous pressure. Or you could look at it this way; no one put continuous pressure on him.

I was truly happy to see him get beat the night he got beat on HBO. I think it was his first defeat. By that time I had sickened of his persona, and his skills / desire proved to be waning as well.

[Silver]

jones was problably the most athletcially gifted fighter ever but he invested way too much on his talent. once he started to diminish physically, he became beatable. and once he lost, he became a mentally and physically fragile fighter, lying on the ropes, doing a poor rope-a-dope imitation

[sauhund II]

I don't think Jones could have faced anyone that would have silenced his critics when it comes to opposition.

If he took out Dm, would anyone now actually look at that fight as his lynch pin to greatness?? I seriously doubt it. Dm would have been looked at by Jones detractors as just another overprotected Euro fighter that didn't belong in the ring with Jones.

Benn would have been a joke. Jones would have crushed him and detractors would have been asking why he didn't fight Malinga or someone like that.


THough his quality of opposition isn't great, it is more than adequate to qualify his greatness.

Keith
You have a lot of "woulds" in your post but the matter of fact is that Jones did not pursue those fights in earnest. He talked a big game for wanting the Buster Douglas or Tysons of this world but never backed it up with deeds.

Hell, even for his Huggybear fight he was MIA and hardly anybody knwe if he would actually show up. Would he beat DM ? Probably but it would be no cake walk like the cops or mailmans he liked to feast on. His chin was always suspect but hidden by his outstanding athletism and I can guarantee you that he knew that he could not rely on his chin when the going got tough.

[young griffo]

You have a lot of "woulds" in your post but the matter of fact is that Jones did not pursue those fights in earnest. He talked a big game for wanting the Buster Douglas or Tysons of this world but never backed it up with deeds.

Hell, even for his Huggybear fight he was MIA and hardly anybody knwe if he would actually show up. Would he beat DM ? Probably but it would be no cake walk like the cops or mailmans he liked to feast on. His chin was always suspect but hidden by his outstanding athletism and I can guarantee you that he knew that he could not rely on his chin when the going got tough.
So Roy knew his chin was no good but he continued to rise up in weight to risk it against larger and more powerful men?

Doesn't sound a very sensible thing for a chinny,cowardly fighter to do.

Then again you may just be talking nonsense.

As for DM he couldn't even beat one of the garbage men Roy whipped so I don't think he'd stand a chance against Jones himself.The overrating of Michalczewski's prowess is getting to be ridiculous.

[fists of fury]

So Roy knew his chin was no good but he continued to rise up in weight to risk it against larger and more powerful men?

Doesn't sound a very sensible thing for a chinny,cowardly fighter to do.

Then again you may just be talking nonsense.



No, I think he made a good point actually. I'd imagine Jones figured that if smaller, faster guys could not land much on him, the likes of Ruiz definitely couldn't. He was betting more on his elusiveness rather than his ability to take a big shot.

Let's turn this on it's head for a second. Would he go up to heavyweight for the first time if he had already been knocked out by Tarver?

Jones had fantastic physical gifts, but his chin wasn't great. Not bad, but certainly not great.

[lefthook31]

No, I think he made a good point actually. I'd imagine Jones figured that if smaller, faster guys could not land much on him, the likes of Ruiz definitely couldn't. He was betting more on his elusiveness rather than his ability to take a big shot.

Let's turn this on it's head for a second. Would he go up to heavyweight for the first time if he had already been knocked out by Tarver?

Jones had fantastic physical gifts, but his chin wasn't great. Not bad, but certainly not great.
You ever see Jones and Tarver in person? Tarver is a huge man, tall looks like a heavyweight in my opinion. Jones on the other hand looks very very small. His upper body is muscular but his overall persona is very small. Just meeting him in person gave me a whole new respect for what he did, he looks like a middleweight at best. Now that he is in his advanced age and fighting at 168 is proof that he really never had any business at LH or Heavyweight for that matter, and the only reason he went up there was to take on more challenges.
I think Jones liked to stay busy, so he filled in his schedule with some soft touches, but the tough fights are mixed in quite well in my opinion. Boxing is a business, and Jones knew it quite well.

[keith]

You have a lot of "woulds" in your post but the matter of fact is that Jones did not pursue those fights in earnest. He talked a big game for wanting the Buster Douglas or Tysons of this world but never backed it up with deeds.

Hell, even for his Huggybear fight he was MIA and hardly anybody knwe if he would actually show up. Would he beat DM ? Probably but it would be no cake walk like the cops or mailmans he liked to feast on. His chin was always suspect but hidden by his outstanding athletism and I can guarantee you that he knew that he could not rely on his chin when the going got tough.


So we are dengrating a midlleweight for not fighting Mike Tyson or a 240 pound Douglas??

Like I said, if that is your point of detraction, that is actually a testament to his greatness.

4 division champion from Middlweight to heavy, and we are talking about a few sloppy fighters he didn't fight.....


Keith

[DRmullen2]

If jones retired after the ruiz heavy fight he would be no 1 all time.

[Stonehands89]

Roy Jones jnr, thoughts please. :think

Roy Jones ability > Roy Jones career.

Not saying he had a bad career, he had a great career but lets be honest, someone with this guys outrageous ability should be being discussed in the same mould as the original Sugar Ray but he fucked it up IMHO.
... and yet you rank him at #10 all time?

[Bill Butcher]

... and yet you rank him at #10 all time?

In my defence Stonehands... my 10th place changes more than it should... I do only rank fighters Ive seen enough & know enough about... I rank primes & H2H ability higher than the average poster... & I think on ability, he`s up there close to Robinson, its actually his career choices that keep him as low as 10 on my list.

:good