Brock Lesnar and "Progress"

[cross_trainer]

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This may have been discussed before; if so my apologies. I've been absent for a while.

There's a great deal of fuss made about the evolution of MMA styles from one-dimensional fighters to well-rounded guys who can seamlessly transition between striking and the ground. I don't dispute that modern MMA fighters have a much broader skillset than the fighters of ten years ago.

...But how much does it matter? Lesnar differs very little from wrestlers like Severn and Coleman when they took top UFC fighters apart in the early and mid-90's. True, Lesnar did have coaching from true MMA coaches that his predecessors lacked, but he doesn't seem to have become much better rounded as a result.

What does Lesnar's success say about the "gap" between 'old time' champions and 'modern' ones?

[Polymath]

You're right on the 'well rounded' thing; its overrated imo.

However there is still a big difference between the fighters from Severns, and even Colemans time. Lesnar is doing the same things, but just on a much higher level.

'Evolution' isn't just adding more and more techniques, its also more talented, younger athletes who are trained more effectively to exploit there own skillset, rather than just become a brownbelt at everything,

[Beebs]

In one way you are dead on; but on the other look how much better colemans strategy of ground and pound are than Severns plan of ground and....see if you can work a sort of modified wrestling hold or basic sub, and even how much better his striking was. Then look at how much better Kerrs sub grappling skill was. Now look at how much better Lesnars striking is than any if them.

On the other hand you have Tom Erikson who was very similar to Severn, but eventually picked up some striking and some more grappling.

So while I think that you are right in that formula is still the same, the same type of person is still doing the business, they are picking up the rest of their game at the same speed as the rest of the sport. They are becoming more well rounded at a slightly higher pace than many types of fighters, but not by much. The whole sport is just getting better and wrestlers are too, maybe at a slighly quicker rate, but not neccesarily.

They are evolving compared to the previous generation, but the rest of the sport is as well, so the big wrestlers are comparitively in the same relative position to the rest of the sport, maybe slightly ahead.

[jrow]

i think lesnar is a better wrestler than the other 2,and lesnar has tremendous speed for a man his size and he has better striking(look at the knee he hit and the standing elbow shot on couture)but i understand the point you were trying to make

[Polymath]

i think lesnar is a better wrestler than the other 2,and lesnar has tremendous speed for a man his size and he has better striking(look at the knee he hit and the standing elbow shot on couture)but i understand the point you were trying to make

Severn and Coleman are both better wrestlers than Lesnar and its not even close.

What he is is younger and naturally bigger than those guys, and probably a better 'athlete' in re. to the attributes that are useful in MMA.

[ryanty22]

id love to see lesnar now fight severn from 95or96.

[scurlaruntings]

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This may have been discussed before; if so my apologies. I've been absent for a while.

There's a great deal of fuss made about the evolution of MMA styles from one-dimensional fighters to well-rounded guys who can seamlessly transition between striking and the ground. I don't dispute that modern MMA fighters have a much broader skillset than the fighters of ten years ago.

...But how much does it matter? Lesnar differs very little from wrestlers like Severn and Coleman when they took top UFC fighters apart in the early and mid-90's. True, Lesnar did have coaching from true MMA coaches that his predecessors lacked, but he doesn't seem to have become much better rounded as a result.

What does Lesnar's success say about the "gap" between 'old time' champions and 'modern' ones?

Lesnar is no diffrent to a prime Coleman. He uses brute strength coupled with his size and athleticism to get the job done. After 4 wins its way to early to make any assumptions about Brock yet. But theres no evolution here in the slightest. Coleman punctuated that mold along with Mark Kerr and everyone else has followed suit. Ironically i think Brock would have fared better under PRIDE rules as knee's on the ground were VERY beneficial to Colemans very limited arsenal.

[scurlaruntings]

Severn and Coleman are both better wrestlers than Lesnar and its not even close.

What he is is younger and naturally bigger than those guys, and probably a better 'athlete' in re. to the attributes that are useful in MMA.Severn is a superior wrestler to Brock and Coleman. He had a vast array of submmisions as well as one of the purest wrestling techniques iv ever seen. At least if Severn got you're back there was a chance of a submission. If Coleman or Brock get your back there not going to do shit there except pound the shit out of your ears.

[rydersonthestorm]

Severn is a superior wrestler to Brock and Coleman. He had a vast array of submmisions as well as one of the purest wrestling techniques iv ever seen. At least if Severn got you're back there was a chance of a submission. If Coleman or Brock get your back there not going to do shit there except pound the shit out of your ears.
Kerr was far superior to either brock or coleman in terms of submission wrestling as well.

[codeman99998]

Severn is a superior wrestler to Brock and Coleman. He had a vast array of submmisions as well as one of the purest wrestling techniques iv ever seen. At least if Severn got you're back there was a chance of a submission. If Coleman or Brock get your back there not going to do shit there except pound the shit out of your ears.

Credentially is Severn a greater wrestler than Lesnar? This is a serious question, not rhetorical, because I honestly don't know.

Also, technique is undoubtedly extremely important but if Lesnar would win in a wrestling match because he is bigger and stronger and has good ENOUGH technique, doesn't that make him a better wrestler?

[scurlaruntings]

Kerr was far superior to either brock or coleman in terms of submission wrestling as well.Most defintly. All those 3 had drug problems though. Colemans been on GH for almost his entire career. Kerr was on a ton of controlled substances and Brock spent his early years in the NCAA/OVW/WWE on GH and Steroids.

[rydersonthestorm]

Most defintly. All those 3 had drug problems though. Colemans been on GH for almost his entire career. Kerr was on a ton of controlled substances and Brock spent his early years in the NCAA/OVW/WWE on GH and Steroids.
Its funny as well because alot of the ufc fanboys are now trying to discredit barnett because of the drugs :rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

[scurlaruntings]

Its funny as well because alot of the ufc fanboys are now trying to discredit barnett because of the drugs :rofl:rofl:rofl:roflUFC fans have as much depth as a puddle of spit. They know fuck all about this sport. Its common knowledge the UFC are in bed with organisations like the CSAC and NSAC. The random drug test dont mean shit. Bare in mind some of there biggest stars have been on steroids, Ken Shamrock, Sylvia, Monson, Sherk, Bonnar etc. The UFC pick and choose who they check. Additionally when Barnett was first caught on hormones he was in the UFC. The entirety of team Hammerhouse left for Japan because they could use illegal performance enhancers freely there. Thing is you can do the same in the UFC if you know the right people. The Japanese made no attempt to hide it and thus it never became an issue. Over in the UFC they champion how "clean" there fighters are when id wager a guess that at least 50-70% of that stable is on some form of peformance enhancer.

[codeman99998]

Its funny as well because alot of the ufc fanboys are now trying to discredit barnett because of the drugs :rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

Barnett discredited himself by testing positive three times in his career.

[codeman99998]

Over in the UFC they champion how "clean" there fighters are when id wager a guess that at least 50-70% of that stable is on some form of peformance enhancer.

Yeah, but that is just a guess backed up by no real reasoning except "it's common knowledge" which really means nothing.

The NSAC says Brock is clean after UFC 100. Brock's muscle definition is significantly less than it was when he was a pro-wrestler. I don't know how you can be so sure that he is on steroids...

[scurlaruntings]

Barnett discredited himself by testing positive three times in his career.The moral perch in regards to hormones is quite pathetic. If fans knew what was really going on in this sport they wouldnt pay any attention to any of that. The only thing that pisses me off is how Barnett who is a vet could have been so stupid as to get caught and scupper a massive bout with huge significance.

[scurlaruntings]

Yeah, but that is just a guess backed up by no real reasoning except "it's common knowledge" which really means nothing.

The NSAC says Brock is clean after UFC 100. Brock's muscle definition is significantly less than it was when he was a pro-wrestler. I don't know how you can be so sure that he is on steroids...Sylvia was on steroids. So was Bonnar. Neither man looks like a Spartan. Muscle definition is NOT a definitive indication of steroid abuse. Brock was postively on hormones in his previous career. Wether he is on them now i cannot say. But he WAS on them at some stage and he knows it. Theres no point in forgetting that just because Brock is the new man on the block and Barnett isnt in the UFC. Its twisted morality as far as im concerned. And no it is common knowledge that NSAC and CSAC officials have been "bought" by the UFC. Dont believe me google it yourself.

[codeman99998]

The moral perch in regards to hormones is quite pathetic. If fans knew what was really going on in this sport they wouldnt pay any attention to any of that. The only thing that pisses me off is how Barnett who is a vet could have been so stupid as to get caught and scupper a massive bout with huge significance.

How do you know what is really going on in the sport and I don't? This is a serious question, not meant to be insulting.

[rydersonthestorm]

How do you know what is really going on in the sport and I don't? This is a serious question, not meant to be insulting.
Come on do you seriously think lesnar has never taken steroids its almost a pre requisite that you have to take them to be in wwf. I am not saying he is taking them now but having taken them in the past would give him the same advantages.

[scurlaruntings]

Come on do you seriously think lesnar has never taken steroids its almost a pre requisite that you have to take them to be in wwf. I am not saying he is taking them now but having taken them in the past would give him the same advantages.Its not even that. Guys who take hormones take them for life. Trust me its all psychological with them blokes. I see this in my gym all the time. Once they get on a cycle and they see the results they never come off them. They just break there cycle every now and then to clean out and go back on another cycle. No one ever takes hormones once and then just stops. That just doesnt happen.

[codeman99998]

Sylvia was on steroids. So was Bonnar. Neither man looks like a Spartan. Muscle definition is NOT a definitive indication of steroid abuse. Brock was postively on hormones in his previous career. Wether he is on them now i cannot say. But he WAS on them at some stage and he knows it. Theres no point in forgetting that just because Brock is the new man on the block and Barnett isnt in the UFC. Its twisted morality as far as im concerned. And no it is common knowledge that NSAC and CSAC officials have been "bought" by the UFC. Dont believe me google it yourself.

Sherk, Parisyan, Bonnar, Barnett and Sanchez were all caught while in the UFC.

When I think of fighters that the UFC would ESPECIALLY not want caught, Bonnar and Sanchez immediately come to mind, because they were finalists in TUF1 and great for the company. I don't know man, it just doesnt add up. Why does ANYONE in the UFC get caught if they have a rigged system?

[scurlaruntings]

How do you know what is really going on in the sport and I don't? This is a serious question, not meant to be insulting.Because i read my local papers. What do you think sherlock :roll:

[codeman99998]

Come on do you seriously think lesnar has never taken steroids its almost a pre requisite that you have to take them to be in wwf. I am not saying he is taking them now but having taken them in the past would give him the same advantages.

No. I think he probably took steroids while in the WWE. I don't want to make it seem as if I don't think that.

[codeman99998]

Because i read my local papers. What do you think sherlock :roll:

Bullshit dude. What special information are YOU privy to that the rest of us aren't that causes you to KNOW these things. We are all fans of MMA enough that we post on an internet forum about it fairly regularly. We all follow the news of MMA to varying degrees, but certainly more than the "average UFC fan" you talk about. My question is, how do you KNOW these things that I don't know. Your local paper isn't a serious answer.

[scurlaruntings]

Sherk, Parisyan, Bonnar, Barnett and Sanchez were all caught while in the UFC.

When I think of fighters that the UFC would ESPECIALLY not want caught, Bonnar and Sanchez immediately come to mind, because they were finalists in TUF1 and great for the company. I don't know man, it just doesnt add up. Why does ANYONE in the UFC get caught if they have a rigged system?NSAC and the UFC have always had a relationship that gets the UFC what its wants. 2 years ago the UFC were embroiled in a big steroid scandal with both Hermes and Sherk testing positive. There was audacious talk about them loosing there TV contract etc. Now fighters will obviously slip through the net thats only logical and likewise some of the NSAC policies put in place do work but there hardly fool proof and thus why guys like Sherk and co were caught slipping. I mean seriously Marc Rattner the former commisioner for NSAC has been working for the UFC for the last 3 years.

[Beebs]

UFC fans have as much depth as a puddle of spit. They know fuck all about this sport. Its common knowledge the UFC are in bed with organisations like the CSAC and NSAC. The random drug test dont mean shit. Bare in mind some of there biggest stars have been on steroids, Ken Shamrock, Sylvia, Monson, Sherk, Bonnar etc. The UFC pick and choose who they check. Additionally when Barnett was first caught on hormones he was in the UFC. The entirety of team Hammerhouse left for Japan because they could use illegal performance enhancers freely there. Thing is you can do the same in the UFC if you know the right people. The Japanese made no attempt to hide it and thus it never became an issue. Over in the UFC they champion how "clean" there fighters are when id wager a guess that at least 50-70% of that stable is on some form of peformance enhancer.

So Don King, Lou DiBella, and decades of boxing promoters with as much or more money couldn't control the commision, but suddenly the UFC can?

Paranoid. The UFC tests its fighters even without needing to in foreign countries. Every main even fighter is tested, often many more than that. Random blood testing was done for the UFC and other orgs as well.

People are discrediting Barnett because he has failed 3 drug tests. Not once, not twice, three times. That deserves discrediting.

Give me all the supposed "common knowledge" about "oh anybody can pass a drug test, lol" bullshit you want, but there is a reason why when Pride came to the US so many fighters pissed hot. You can hide PED's to a degree, but stringent testing at least means you have to limit your use very much, something Barnett is not willing to do.

[Beebs]

Its not even that. Guys who take hormones take them for life. Trust me its all psychological with them blokes. I see this in my gym all the time. Once they get on a cycle and they see the results they never come off them. They just break there cycle every now and then to clean out and go back on another cycle. No one ever takes hormones once and then just stops. That just doesnt happen.

Great, now you know every steroid user ever, that must be nice. Honestly, I don't know if its the arrogance or the ignorance, but you just could not be any more wrong if you tried.

So how are the labs that are catching Barnett missing Lesnar? Oh, the UFC controls them? Then why did Barnett get caught in the UFC....twice? Why did he get caught in a test that was determining the prevalence of them in MMA?
If the UFC controls them how did both Sherk and Franca get caught (nobody even thought about them losing their TV deal, be fucking serious)

It amazes me that people think the commisions are controlled by the UFC, when the Mafia, Don Kind, Lou DiBella, et al, could not controll them 1/10th of much as people say the UFC do.