Jack Dempsey Against ... [Archive] - East Side Boxing Forum

mr. magoo

08-04-2009, 02:14 PM

Barney

08-04-2009, 02:27 PM

I personally wouldn't pick Dempsey to beat any of those three men, though a lot of experts would give him an excellent chance against most of them. Louis in my opinion, was the greatest heavyweight puncher of all time, at least from a technical standpoint. I think that after 25 title defenses in 12 years, knockouts over large heavyweights, and wins over 6 men who were either past, present or future champs is enough to gain my confidence. Muhammad Ali's speed, chin, stamina and boxing ability would earn him a comfortable decision. Frazier may well be the only one of the three who is truly vulnerable to a Dempsey attack, but I'm still not sold on picking Jack. Joe's handspeed and upper body movement was remarkable for a heavyweight. He'd also have a lot of power, work effort and a significant weight advantage...

My feeling is that Frazier would not be able to find a place to begin his fight against Dempsey. Dempsey being like a wild cat his speed was amazing and he hit like a sledge hammer. Frazier was not a difficult man to land a glove on.

I agree with you on Louis. However he was able to be hit and hurt. I'm wondering if he got hurt by Dempsey if he would be able to withstand the inevitable Dempsey onslaught we know comes when he has a man hurt. Louis did not have the best chin. He had everything else.

I'd bet on Ali. Wish I could see it. Ali never got ruffled by unorthodoxy or swarming fighters. Classic matador / bull set up.

mr. magoo

08-04-2009, 02:46 PM

My feeling is that Frazier would not be able to find a place to begin his fight against Dempsey. Dempsey being like a wild cat his speed was amazing and he hit like a sledge hammer. Frazier was not a difficult man to land a glove on.

I agree with you on Louis. However he was able to be hit and hurt. I'm wondering if he got hurt by Dempsey if he would be able to withstand the inevitable Dempsey onslaught we know comes when he has a man hurt. Louis did not have the best chin. He had everything else.

I'd bet on Ali. Wish I could see it. Ali never got ruffled by unorthodoxy or swarming fighters. Classic matador / bull set up.

Could be the case.. If Dempsey is going to beat Frazier,then my guess is that it would have to happen sometime early. As this fight goes on, I envision Joe getting more and more the better of Dempsey and frankly, I can't see Jack surviving 15 rounds of the kind of relentless pressure that Joe would be placing on him..

Barney

08-04-2009, 03:06 PM

Could be the case.. If Dempsey is going to beat Frazier,then my guess is that it would have to happen sometime early. As this fight goes on, I envision Joe getting more and more the better of Dempsey and frankly, I can't see Jack surviving 15 rounds of the kind of relentless pressure that Joe would be placing on him..

There was no quit in Joe. He broke my heart in the first Ali fight. He represents the best of boxing.

It's just fun to talk about this kind of thing. The thing with Dempsey is that he might very will bring to the table things Frazier is unfamiliar with. He was a dirty fighter at times and nothing would be allowed in his way of winning. Frazier might be put off by them. How would Frazier relate to them? He wouldn't want to turn his head to complain of multiple low blows.

mr. magoo

08-04-2009, 03:12 PM

There was no quit in Joe. He broke my heart in the first Ali fight. He represents the best of boxing.

It's just fun to talk about this kind of thing. The thing with Dempsey is that he might very will bring to the table things Frazier is unfamiliar with. He was a dirty fighter at times and nothing would be allowed in his way of winning. Frazier might be put off by them. How would Frazier relate to them? He wouldn't want to turn his head to complain of multiple low blows.

I think it would be a fight fan's type of match. Lot's of action from both men. These guys each had an extremely high workrate. Joe had the faster hands, while Dempsey was quicker on his feet. I can see an incredible number of punches thrown in the first few rounds. I also wouldn't be surprised to see both men visit the canvas along the way.

Barney

08-04-2009, 03:28 PM

I think it would be a fight fan's type of match. Lot's of action from both men. These guys each had an extremely high workrate. Joe had the faster hands, while Dempsey was quicker on his feet. I can see an incredible number of punches thrown in the first few rounds. I also wouldn't be surprised to see both men visit the canvas along the way.

Joe had the advantage of the developments of training in the sport that were not available to Dempsey. It seems I recall that at one time fighters put pickle brine on their faces to reduce the possibility of cuts. I bring this out to show how superstition figured into the fight game. It was said that black fighters couldn't take it in the belly. Or was it the other way around.

What I'm getting at is that the superstitions of the period affected the way people approached the sport as well as adopting training methods that might not be considered the thing to do later on.

Do trainers still take seriously the 'no sex' taboo during training that was prevalent in the early days?

guilalah

08-04-2009, 03:31 PM

TM = brought together by time machine, each out of his own day.

CA = they come along in the same era, peak at the same time.

Dempsey v Frazier: TM -- I favor Dempsey by a sliver; CA -- I favor Dempsey a little.

Dempsey v Louis: TM -- I favor Louis a little; CA -- I favor Louis a sliver.

Dempsey v Ali: TM -- I favor Ali somewhat; CA -- I favor Ali a little.

mr. magoo

08-04-2009, 03:36 PM

Do trainers still take seriously the 'no sex' taboo during training that was prevalent in the early days?

Given that I am neither a fighter nor trainer, I couldn't say for sure. I do not think that there is any real scientific correlation though that having sex within days prior to strenuous activity will effect performance. If anything, trainers may prefer that their fighters avoid being with partners mainly due to the psychological distraction, but again I haven't got the expertise to say for sure.

mightyd40

08-04-2009, 03:37 PM

i think dempsey loses all three....he possibly beats frazier but i am confident that ali and louis would be able to outbox him and louis would stop him at some point in the fight.

Hydraulix

09-27-2009, 03:01 PM

Dempsey versus Frazier is a tough one to call. If Jack were to hurt Joe early, he'd get the duke. If Oscar Bonavena and Ron Stander could hurt Joe early, I think Jack could do some serious damage early on. Joe normally lost the opening rounds, so the fact that he was a slow starter would be a huge disadvantage against Dempsey and would likely cost him the fight.

As for Louis, I think he would beat Dempsey, but it would not surprise me if Jack knocked him out. Joe was always capable of being dropped with flash knockdowns. Jack has a great chance here. It's really 50/50, but I'd give the slight edge to Louis.

Aside from Tyson and Tua, I'd give any of the relentless swarmer heavywieghts a good chance of beating Ali. I think Marciano and Dempsey could hurt Ali as much as Frazier did. (Ali said himself that Rocky could hurt him even worse than Frazier did.) In a nutshell, Jack's left hook was even faster than Frazier's, and he had a thunderous right hand to go along with it. So he could spell trouble for Ali. However, he didn't have the stamina that Rocky and Frazier had, so he may not win the fight in the end. But he would give him trouble.

Cheese

09-27-2009, 07:26 PM

Interesting topic.

Like has been said before it took "Smoking" Joe a few rounds to warm up, so that could spell trouble against a hard combination puncher like Dempsey. Dempsey would have to relentlessly attack Frazier in the early rounds to take him out. And he would have to make sure his punches were precise and hurt Frazier. If he did that he could take Frazier out. But if Dempsey couldn't take Joe out in the early rounds I'd give it Frazier. Dempsey couldn't handle Frazier ferocious body attacks for 15 rounds, he's definitely gonna drop before that. I don't think Dempsey fought somebody with such a consistent, effective, body attack as Frazier. By the middle rounds Frazier would have the fight in the bag because Dempsey's lack of mobility. Dempsey's ribs and kidneys would be broken down and Frazier would then go on the attack and finish him off.

I personally think Joe Louis had too many weapons for Dempsey. Like Jam said Louis could very well get knocked down but I think his speed and devastating punching power would be too much for Dempsey to handle.

Although it would be a good fight I think Dempsey would take out Ali Dempsey capitalized off of opponents who gave him any type of lead way. Ali was known for dropping his hands and having difficulty blocking a jab or a left hook. Dempsey was good at all three and he could take you out with either right or left hand. And his left hook was absolute murder. Once Ali dropped his hands Dempsey could land a left hook along with other punches behind that. Ali couldn't make amateur mistakes with Dempsey. If Ali worked on these techniques he could beat or give Dempsey a run for his money. But he always had fundamental flaws so I'd give it to Dempsey.

PetethePrince

09-27-2009, 08:36 PM

Do trainers still take seriously the 'no sex' taboo during training that was prevalent in the early days?

Yes, I remember in the Magic Man documentary how Paulie was getting tired and stressed for all the training, dieting, and no sex, etc.

Hydraulix

09-27-2009, 09:57 PM

I personally think Joe Louis had too many weapons for Dempsey. Like Jam said Louis could very well get knocked down but I think his speed and devastating punching power would be too much for Dempsey to handle.

Remember that Joe Louis was flat footed, and Dempsey would cut off the ring, trapping him against the ropes. Joe was not a great mover at all. Trap him against the ropes and he's helpless. Rocky Marciano proved just that in his fight against Louis. Dempsey would bob and weave to slip Joe's punches and Joe would eventually catch a counterpunch from Dempsey that would lay him out. Joe had faster handspeed than Dempsey (not by a wide margin, but he did) but if Louis were dropped by Braddock, Galento, Baer, Walcott and others, I have no doubt that Dempsey would catch and drop him too. And the consequences would be worse. Jack was a better puncher than all of those guys. Once Jack has you hurt, you're finished.

Although it would be a good fight I think Dempsey would take out Ali Dempsey capitalized off of opponents who gave him any type of lead way. Ali was known for dropping his hands and having difficulty blocking a jab or a left hook. Dempsey was good at all three and he could take you out with either right or left hand. And his left hook was absolute murder. Once Ali dropped his hands Dempsey could land a left hook along with other punches behind that. Ali couldn't make amateur mistakes with Dempsey. If Ali worked on these techniques he could beat or give Dempsey a run for his money. But he always had fundamental flaws so I'd give it to Dempsey.

Yeah, but it wasn't just the body punches and smothering style that Frazier used to beat Ali; it was the stamina. Frazier's stamina was never-ending. Same as Rocky Marciano. These guys actually got stronger and faster as the fight progressed. Dempsey was at his best during the opening rounds. Ali had such a great chin; you're never gonna knock him out in the first round. Joe managed to hurt Ali because he gradually broke him down with relentless body punching early on, resulting in Ali becoming softer, slower and much more vulnerable later in the fight. In Dempsey's case, he would go for the kill early against a fresh Ali, and Ali would be able to tear him apart later in the fight as Dempsey gradually tired out.

Cheese

09-27-2009, 11:28 PM

Remember that Joe Louis was flat footed, and Dempsey would cut off the ring, trapping him against the ropes. Dempsey would bob and weave to slip Joe's punches and Joe would eventually catch a counterpunch from Dempsey that would lay him out. Joe had faster handspeed than Dempsey (not by a wide margin, but he did) but if Louis were dropped by Braddock, Galento, Baer, Walcott and others, I have no doubt that Dempsey would catch and drop him too. And the consequences would be worse. Jack was a better puncher than all of those guys. Once Jack has you hurt, you're finished.

Yeah, but it wasn't just the body punches and smothering style that Frazier used to beat Ali; it was the stamina. Frazier's stamina was never-ending. Same as Rocky Marciano. These guys actually got stronger and faster as the fight progressed. Dempsey was at his best during the opening rounds. Ali had such a great chin; you're never gonna knock him out in the first round. Joe managed to hurt Ali because he gradually broke him down with relentless body punching early on, resulting in Ali becoming softer, slower and much more vulnerable later in the fight. In Dempsey's case, he would go for the kill early against a fresh Ali, and Ali would be able to tear him apart later in the fight as Dempsey gradually tired out.

Good points. Louis did have trouble with smothering fighters as you mentioned. But Joe was one of the few fighters would had the ability to knock you out moving backwards. Would be a good fight most definitely.

Ali could definitely take a punch but I think with Dempseys hard and quick combination punches he would hurt Ali real bad. You couldn't drop your hands like Ali does against a fighter like Dempsey, it was OV. Frazier doesn't hit as hard as Demspey and we saw what he did every time Ali dropped his hands, he worked him. So with a fighter like Dempsey those opportunites are like letting a tiger out of a cage. Ali had tremendous speed but he had to keep Dempsey from getting on the inside for him to win. He could do it though.

rm36

09-27-2009, 11:28 PM

I would favor Dempsey over Frazier. He'd lose to Louis. Ali and Dempsey would be closely matched and I can see both fighters winning if they fought a few times.

Bummy Davis

09-27-2009, 11:31 PM

I hate to create a stir but I think Dempsey has a very good style vs Frazier and could hurt Joe early if the fight goes later I would favor Joe with his superior stamina....Dempsey had an excellent hook and fast hands...I also think he has an excellent chance to land on Ali his hook and hurt Ali, however I favor Ali over the 15 rd route...with louis Jack has a punchers chance and an early shot...but I favor Joe in this shootout...Dempsey had 2 good hands but Joe was the best combo puncher ever...do not count Jack out completely in any of these 3 fights, though

Hydraulix

09-27-2009, 11:38 PM

Frazier doesn't hit as hard as Demspey

I think Frazier's power was on the same level as Dempsey's once he warmed up. After all, Frazier is the man who broke a blood vessel above George Chuvalo's eye and put permanent scars on Chuck Wepner as well. Matter of fact, Joe has broken many bones along the way, just a Dempsey had. Frazier's punching power in round 11 was the same as Jack Dempsey's in round 1.

As for Dempsey beating Ali, I just don't see it. It takes a long time to hurt Muhammad Ali. George Foreman pounded on Ali's body for 7 rounds and couldn't hurt him. It even took Joe Frazier 11 rounds to finally hurt Ali severely in their first fight. Dempsey's early attacks wouldn't hurt Ali the way that they would later in the fight.

You mentioned that Frazier made Ali miss and made him pay, but Ali wasn't hurt until late in the fight. Stamina was Frazier's greatest weapon against Ali. Ali would be able to take Dempsey's punches early on and then cleverly outbox him later in the fight when Dempsey begins to tire. The fact that Frazier was a slow starter was an advantage for him because he was at his best during the long haul. Dempsey, on the other hand, would be getting tired and wouldn't be the aggressor he was in the first couple of rounds.

By round 11, Frazier or Marciano would be hurting Ali while someone like Dempsey, Tyson or Foreman would be too tired to be effective or aggressive.

turpinr

09-28-2009, 04:13 AM

i think joe louis would score a a clean KO versus dempsey
ali would do as he pleased
frazier would win over the stretch

mcvey

09-28-2009, 05:44 AM

Joe Frazier

Joe Louis

Ali

---------------------------------------------------------

I think anyone of these fights might be a great one.

I don't think Frazier would last to long against Dempsey.

I think it depends on who gets hit first with Louis.

And Ali I think would go into late rounds with a pick-em outcome and lots of hysterical betting especially if you were betting round by round.
#
I like Dempsey to stop Frazier inside 6 rds.
Dempsey overwhelms Louis inside 2 rds, before Joe can get his great jab working.
Ali takes a dec from Jack, but has a couple of scares along the way.

Maxmomer

09-28-2009, 06:00 AM

I favor Dempsey over Frazier by a shade, given Frazier's slow starts and tendency to get hurt early in fights, and Dempsey's fast starts and history of hurting people early in fights.

I favor Louis over Dempsey by a tiny bit, given Dempsey's tendency to get nailed and hurt with right hands and taking into account how fast, powerful and precise Louis' right hand was, I think it's more likely Louis gets Dempsey than the other way around (I used to pick Dempsey over Louis, but I think less of Dempsey's chin after it's become clear that his KO loss to Jim Flynn was probably legit).

Ali would UD Dempsey or stop him late on accumulative damage, maybe cuts, but it would be a shitty night for the both of them, and Ali might have to come off the floor.

VanillaKilla

09-28-2009, 06:10 AM

its depends... what rules????

bare knuckle (pre queensberry) dempsy (all of em)

Bare knuckle queensberry he gets his ass kicked

Boxers in the old days just used to be master street scrappers. Not the athletic genius's(like ALI) or just straight up goarilla animal monsters (like foreman).

With the glove and sportman conduct, dempsey would lose. However, in the bareknuckle fight, dempsey would whoop ass

Not to get on dempsey's meat, Jack Johnson would DESTROY him, Dempsey was pretty pussy for not fightin dark brothers, but that will always will forgotten :hey

Old school boxers were more like scrappers then athletes.. Thats why jack johnson or dempsey will always beat todays heavies's in a real scrap!! :bbb

he grant

09-28-2009, 09:25 AM

Dempsey - Frazier could be like Paq - Marquez.

Dempsey could definately give Ali a very tough bout. I see him chasing Ali all over the ring. Ali lacked the power to seriously hurt him. Alii would be favored by decision but it could be extremely interesting.

I personally think he might pull off a win over the 1973 Foreman. His explosive speed and power make him a far different match up than a 1973 Frazier.

I do not like his chances against Liston, Lewis or Tyson. If he caught Joe Louis first he could win but that to me at best is one out of three. Holyfield would be a war but I lean to Evander by decision.

mcvey

09-28-2009, 09:43 AM

I think Frazier's power was on the same level as Dempsey's once he warmed up. After all, Frazier is the man who broke a blood vessel above George Chuvalo's eye and put permanent scars on Chuck Wepner as well. Matter of fact, Joe has broken many bones along the way, just a Dempsey had. Frazier's punching power in round 11 was the same as Jack Dempsey's in round 1.

As for Dempsey beating Ali, I just don't see it. It takes a long time to hurt Muhammad Ali. George Foreman pounded on Ali's body for 7 rounds and couldn't hurt him. It even took Joe Frazier 11 rounds to finally hurt Ali severely in their first fight. Dempsey's early attacks wouldn't hurt Ali the way that they would later in the fight.

You mentioned that Frazier made Ali miss and made him pay, but Ali wasn't hurt until late in the fight. Stamina was Frazier's greatest weapon against Ali. Ali would be able to take Dempsey's punches early on and then cleverly outbox him later in the fight when Dempsey begins to tire. The fact that Frazier was a slow starter was an advantage for him because he was at his best during the long haul. Dempsey, on the other hand, would be getting tired and wouldn't be the aggressor he was in the first couple of rounds.

By round 11, Frazier or Marciano would be hurting Ali while someone like Dempsey, Tyson or Foreman would be too tired to be effective or aggressive.

Frazier NEVER fought Wepner.
How do you know being a slow starter would be an advantage to Frazier,? Dempsey might bomb him out early, when he would be most vulnearable.
The only real big puncher Frazier faced used him as a yo yo.

Hydraulix

09-28-2009, 11:55 AM

Frazier NEVER fought Wepner.

Well, evidently, they were sparring partners at some point because Wepner was talking about how Frazier would double up with his left hooks. He said Frazier hit him with a hard left to the kidneys and immedieatly followed up with a hard left to the head. Chuck said this on "Burt Sugar's Ringside Top Ten Heavyweights" DVD.

How do you know being a slow starter would be an advantage to Frazier,? Dempsey might bomb him out early, when he would be most vulnearable.
The only real big puncher Frazier faced used him as a yo yo.

What are you talking about? I never even said that Dempsey would bomb out Frazier early. That post you quoted was me talking about how Dempsey could possibly beat Joe Louis, but possibly lose to Muhammad Ali. I never once talked about a Frazier/Dempsey matchup in that post. Read it again.

mcvey

09-28-2009, 12:42 PM

Well, evidently, they were sparring partners at some point because Wepner was talking about how Frazier would double up with his left hooks. He said Frazier hit him with a hard left to the kidneys and immedieatly followed up with a hard left to the head. Chuck said this on "Burt Sugar's Ringside Top Ten Heavyweights" DVD.

What are you talking about? I never even said that Dempsey would bomb out Frazier early. That post you quoted was me talking about how Dempsey could possibly beat Joe Louis, but possibly lose to Muhammad Ali. I never once talked about a Frazier/Dempsey matchup in that post. Read it again.
I didnt suggest that you did, I SAID DEMPSEY MIGHT BOMB FRAZIER OUT EARLY.So therefore the advantage you suppose Frazier has of being a late starter,and at his best over the long haul would be negated .
Why you think Dempsey would not be the aggressor late in a fight is beyond me,ever see him going backwards in a fight at ANY stage?
Check Wepner's record on box rec if you don't take my word.

Hydraulix

09-28-2009, 01:14 PM

I didnt suggest that you did, I SAID DEMPSEY MIGHT BOMB FRAZIER OUT EARLY.So therefore the advantage you suppose Frazier has of being a late starter,and at his best over the long haul would be negated .
Why you think Dempsey would not be the aggressor late in a fight is beyond me,ever see him going backwards in a fight at ANY stage?
Check Wepner's record on box rec if you don't take my word.

OK. Misunderstanding. All is good.

I believe you about Chuck, but I'm just going by what he said on the DVD. Since he never fought Joe professionally, he had to have been a sparring partner for Joe at some point in time. I don't think he was lying.

And while Dempsey never relinquished his aggressive assault, he was not as ferocious in round 9 as he was in round 1. The killer instinct was still there, but he definitely tired as the fight progressed. He was getting winded when Jess Willard wouldn't stay down. You can't get tired early or midway through a fight, especially against a clever fighter like Ali. I just don't see him being able to stop Ali or hang in there with him for 15 rounds.

PetethePrince

09-28-2009, 01:55 PM

Dempsey - Frazier could be like Paq - Marquez.

:huh Really? How... Seems somewhat odd a comparison.

Dempsey could definately give Ali a very tough bout. I see him chasing Ali all over the ring. Ali lacked the power to seriously hurt him. Alii would be favored by decision but it could be extremely interesting.Another case of Dempsey's durability being overrated. Didn't Tunney drop him with a jab while backpedaling. Tunney is one of the weakest hitting HW champs ever. He also closed his eyes when they fought. Though, Dempsey wasn't in his prime but still. Firpo dropped him twice. If Ali could TKO Bonavena then he can certainly hurt/drop Dempsey, especially since he hurt Frazier...

I personally think he might pull off a win over the 1973 Foreman. His explosive speed and power make him a far different match up than a 1973 Frazier. And it's you who talks about Rocky fanaticism? Okay, just checking...

junior-soprano

09-28-2009, 01:59 PM

joe louis takes dempsey. joe was the better boxer the better ring general. i also think louis had more strenght then dempsey.. frazier also takes dempsey. joe had at least the same heart and stamina as dempsey and was faster and the better boxer. and ali would be way way way to fast. i know ali wasn't at his best against swarmers but the difference between ali and dempsey is to big.

PetethePrince

09-28-2009, 01:59 PM

Based on this posts I think it's safe to say that Dempsey is not overrated in terms of his legacy but in terms of H2H. We can all thank Jess Williard for that.

In my honest assessment Dempsey loses to all 3 of the fighters. His chances against Ali aren't live. Rocky and Frazier and even Tyson have the better style and more ability to stop or decision Ali. Dempsey has to KO Ali early, otherwise he loses... he doesn't have a stamina edge nor does his durability hold up. It's interesting that someone pointed about rules, which is important. If Dempsey's durability isn't overrated because of small gloves than his power was... take your pick. Dempsey had a savage and raw ability to fight while hurt well and he recovered well, however, he could be hurt and by fighters that aren't in the same ballpark of Louis, Frazier, and Ali.

Louis would KO Dempsey most badly of all of them.

mcvey

09-28-2009, 04:10 PM

:huh Really? How... Seems somewhat odd a comparison.

Another case of Dempsey's durability being overrated. Didn't Tunney drop him with a jab while backpedaling. Tunney is one of the weakest hitting HW champs ever. He also closed his eyes when they fought. Though, Dempsey wasn't in his prime but still. Firpo dropped him twice. If Ali could TKO Bonavena then he can certainly hurt/drop Dempsey, especially since he hurt Frazier...

And it's you who talks about Rocky fanaticism? Okay, just checking...

You need to watch some footage of both Dempsey and Tunney,before making such sweeping statements.
Tunney had 48 kos in 66 wins he hit pretty good especially with his quick right cross,which was the punch that dropped Dempsey momentarily.
Interestingly ,the referee Barry immediately took up the count though Tunney had NOT gone to a neutral corner ,or even moved away from the fallen Dempsey.
Firpo was crude but he could really hit with his right, if he landed flush he had the capability of dropping just about anyone.
Ali did have enough pop to drop Dempsey ,and most everybody else,keeping him down might be a bit more difficult however.

he grant

09-28-2009, 09:00 PM

Dempsey - Frazier like Paq - Marguez ... I see the fast starting Dempsey capable of dropping Joe a few times early with a warmed up Joe giving him all he can handle after that ...

Dempsey had a rock chin. He was only stopped once in his whole career. He took shots from much bigger hitters than Ali. Tunney caught him with a perfectly timed right that dumped an off balance Jack for a flash knockdown. I see Dempsey easily absorbing Ali's power and having the hand speed, foot speed, power and stamina to give him a very tough night. Tougher than Frazier in a head to head match up. Dempsey was a better two handed puncher and faster.

Foreman of 73 is very over rated to me. He was brutally strong and a murderous hitter but did not pace himself, was very wild and could be hit. Slow starting sluggers like Frazier or Marciano match up terribly however a lightning fast starter like Dempsey might have tagged him fast and hurt him. In a wild , drag out fight it might not be that different than Firpo, another huge, extremely strong hard punching slugger. I would not pick Jack but I say he has a fair shot in this match up.

PetethePrince

09-28-2009, 09:20 PM

You need to watch some footage of both Dempsey and Tunney,before making such sweeping statements.
Tunney had 48 kos in 66 wins he hit pretty good especially with his quick right cross,which was the punch that dropped Dempsey momentarily.
Interestingly ,the referee Barry immediately took up the count though Tunney had NOT gone to a neutral corner ,or even moved away from the fallen Dempsey.
Firpo was crude but he could really hit with his right, if he landed flush he had the capability of dropping just about anyone.
Ali did have enough pop to drop Dempsey ,and most everybody else,keeping him down might be a bit more difficult however.

That is true and doesn't get talked about a lot. Tunney was a very sharp puncher, but he didn't hit hard. Compared to Ali? No way Ali definitely had more power and ability to put you down. This, on top of Firpo dropping him twice (Whether one was a push punch) and the fact that Flynn KOed Dempsey in the first round also leaves me to believe his durability is overrated. But you'll see guys like Cox give him a 10 in that category while fighters like Rocky and Frazier who were hurt less or at least by bigger punchers and better fighters.

Ali might've dropped Frazier in the 2nd fight in Round 2 when the ref intervened, however, I think it's safe to say Frazier might've kept himself up. I don't think Ali could drop Frazier in any other 3 fights once, maybe, but he didn't. I also think the odds Rocky stays on his feet would be good, too. But compared to Tunney, it's light and day.

Dempsey - Frazier like Paq - Marguez ... I see the fast starting Dempsey capable of dropping Joe a few times early with a warmed up Joe giving him all he can handle after that ...

Ah okay. Not exactly stylistically comparing but naturally how the fight could turn out.

Dempsey had a rock chin. He was only stopped once in his whole career. He took shots from much bigger hitters than Ali. Tunney caught him with a perfectly timed right that dumped an off balance Jack for a flash knockdown. I see Dempsey easily absorbing Ali's power and having the hand speed, foot speed, power and stamina to give him a very tough night. Tougher than Frazier in a head to head match up. Dempsey was a better two handed puncher and faster.

Firpo had him down twice - once out of the ring (Push and punch and all). Flynn had him down in round 1. That sort of thing should never happen to an ATG elite, and it hasn't happened since (With Lewis being the only comparable example). Tunney was backing up and caught him with a right cross (Not a jab, error on my part) that dropped him. Tunney is a sharp puncher, but no where near a better puncher nor does he have the power of an Ali. How could Ali not be able to drop him - flash knockdown and all? Flash knockdowns happen, I understand.

But in terms of a rock iron chin where does he rate next to Frazier and Marciano? Frazier clearly took on bigger foes, and was rocked the most of all three of them. Also downed the most, but barring the Foreman fight that tells a different story. Interesting to hear your perspective on that.

Foreman of 73 is very over rated to me. He was brutally strong and a murderous hitter but did not pace himself, was very wild and could be hit. Slow starting sluggers like Frazier or Marciano match up terribly however a lightning fast starter like Dempsey might have tagged him fast and hurt him. In a wild , drag out fight it might not be that different than Firpo, another huge, extremely strong hard punching slugger. I would not pick Jack but I say he has a fair shot in this match up.

Firpo's power is no where near Foreman's. Foreman would drop Dempsey badly and would continously knock him to the floor. That's the big difference between Firpo and Foreman... besides Foreman being much better, stronger, bigger in power and more fierce an opponent. Firpo was a bull of a man himself but didn't have no where near the raw strength/power. Dempsey was getting even on pushing/battling terms inside, against Foreman he would be pushed and slammed with an uppercut and left for dead. I see how a fast starter might have better hope than that Frazier we saw but I don't think he can bang Foreman out of there.

he grant

09-28-2009, 10:30 PM

Firpo was a monster hitter. Look at his KO's of Brennan and Willard. The power he displayed v.s. Dempsey speaks for itself.

Maybe Big George tears Dempsey's head off. I did not say I'd put my money on Dempsey, just that I think he would have a hell of a shot because of Foreman's weaknesses as well. I do not think Dempsey has the same shot or close to any against Liston, Tyson or Lewis, other huge punchers, who were much sharper punchers than George.

I think Dempsey, Marciano and Frazier are all in the same catagory of chin strength. Frazier is the most underated. Marciano's wa terrific against who he fought but he clearly fought the lightest hitters of the three. Maybe Rocky's is the best but he never had to prove it so it's a bit open to question over just how great.

marciano1952

09-28-2009, 10:39 PM

Dempsey...Dempsey A Fast Starter could get Frazier out there Early when he was most vaulnerable
Dempsey.....i just think Louis' Chin would let him down
Ali....to Fast, to Much Movement

SuzieQ49

09-29-2009, 01:47 AM

1950 joe louis would embarras Luis Firpo. I doubt Luis would win more than 2 of the 15 rounds. Louis would jab him to death, and outbox him at all ranges/angles. If Fipro keeps his hands to low, Louis could also end things right there by cleaning his clock. Firpo is just too crude and wild to dream of beating a skilled older fighter like Louis.

Flea Man

09-29-2009, 03:54 AM

I think they all beat him, Joe Louis especially. Better form to his punches, if Dempsey came otu swinging Louis would demolish him IMO

he grant

09-29-2009, 07:58 AM

SQ: Doubtful. Firpo much too strong and hard hitting for an old Louis with limited firepower and shot legs. I say Luis stops him just like Rocky did.

PetethePrince

09-29-2009, 09:38 PM

Firpo was a monster hitter. Look at his KO's of Brennan and Willard. The power he displayed v.s. Dempsey speaks for itself.

Williard was around 40 and it took him 8 rounds to do it. Brennan was Koed in the 12th round, while being the 15+ pounds smaller (Since I know you love weight). Hardly would I ever call that impressive nor a monster hitter. In modern day rules one of those wouldn't be a knockdown in a non-title fight and the other is just an old big man going down. In likelihood, they could just as well be sustained beatings. The power doesn't speak volumes about Firpo but Dempsey's over-stated durability.

Maybe Big George tears Dempsey's head off.

He does.

I think Dempsey, Marciano and Frazier are all in the same catagory of chin strength. Frazier is the most underated. Marciano's wa terrific against who he fought but he clearly fought the lightest hitters of the three. Maybe Rocky's is the best but he never had to prove it so it's a bit open to question over just how great.

Marciano definitely didn't clearly fight the lightest hitters of the three. Considering the amount of punishment he did take in some bouts, unless of course you believe his defense was better than Dempsey and or Frazier. It's different and works differently depending upon various styles like most styles. And considering how Dempsey was KOed in 1 round to Flynn while being dropped by Firpo twice and Tunney once... I don't know. Jersey Joe ripped a left hook/uppercut that knocked Charles all over the ring but didn't faze Rocky enough to keep him on the floor for more than 3 seconds. And he didn't see it... again, though, not to harp but you also see Dempsey is being an equal hitter to Marciano (At one point was in position to believe he hit harder). I just don't see how you can see that. But you're entitled, of course.

Rocky took such a sustained amount of shots from Jersey Joe. Jersey Joe was a terrific puncher. I think that in and of it self proves his durability in comparison to Dempsey and what opposition did to him.

he grant

09-29-2009, 10:46 PM

pugilist_boyd

09-29-2009, 11:01 PM

Ithink a prime dempsey has a heck of a shot at ko,n any of them,the hardest being a runnin ali if he fights the ali of ziare? he ko,s ali .ali would have to keep his distannce to survive

PetethePrince

09-29-2009, 11:04 PM

Marciano did not fight one 200 plus pound , physically prime heavyweight in his entire career. His two hardest hitting opponents were Joe Walcott and Archie Moore. Can we get real here ?

It's irrevelant how long it took Firpo to take them out. I'm talking about his power, not ability as a fighter. I'm amazed how many can't seperate the two. Ron Lyle was an exceptional puncher. He was also relitively slow of hand and foot which is why he does not have a record studded with KO's over big names. It does not mean he was not a big puncher, just a limited fighter. When Firpo took them out it was with tremendous shots. In addition, unlike many sluggers, Firpo kept his power late in a fight.

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Let's be real. Firpo is a good puncher but he's not what you're making him out to be. He didn't knock out a world class opponent besides Brennan and an aging Williard. Of course how long it takes them out is relevant. Firpo may be sloppy, but it's just as conceivable that these were sustained beatings due to an accumulation of punches rather than good power. Lyle has far proven himself as a puncher than Firpo.

If Rocky's 1 punch KO was somewhat linked to a sustained beating as you've posted before, then the Brennan KO in the 12th is no way shape or from strong proof of how tremendous of a puncher he is especially in comparison to Marciano's opponents. Walcott is quite honestly much more proven a puncher as far as I'm concerned. He had Louis down 3 (Or was it 4) times in 2 fights and the 250 pound Abe Simon said he hit harder than anyone he ever fought. You'll bring up his record or KO percentage without acknowledging his depression-conditioned fights nor his style in choose.

Dempsey was out in 1 round against Flynn and Tunney had him down. Who would you say had better power at LHW - Charles or Tunney? Rocky's chin was better, just like how his power was.

Hank

09-30-2009, 02:32 AM

Dempsey has become underated as years pass. He would have only lost --maybe--to Louis, Marciano, or Tyson. He beats anyone else, regardless of size, weight, their muscles, or whatever anyone who disregards him goes by.

Maxmomer

09-30-2009, 02:55 AM

mcvey

09-30-2009, 08:07 AM

Williard was around 40 and it took him 8 rounds to do it. Brennan was Koed in the 12th round, while being the 15+ pounds smaller (Since I know you love weight). Hardly would I ever call that impressive nor a monster hitter. In modern day rules one of those wouldn't be a knockdown in a non-title fight and the other is just an old big man going down. In likelihood, they could just as well be sustained beatings. The power doesn't speak volumes about Firpo but Dempsey's over-stated durability.

He does.

Marciano definitely didn't clearly fight the lightest hitters of the three. Considering the amount of punishment he did take in some bouts, unless of course you believe his defense was better than Dempsey and or Frazier. It's different and works differently depending upon various styles like most styles. And considering how Dempsey was KOed in 1 round to Flynn while being dropped by Firpo twice and Tunney once... I don't know. Jersey Joe ripped a left hook/uppercut that knocked Charles all over the ring but didn't faze Rocky enough to keep him on the floor for more than 3 seconds. And he didn't see it... again, though, not to harp but you also see Dempsey is being an equal hitter to Marciano (At one point was in position to believe he hit harder). I just don't see how you can see that. But you're entitled, of course.

Rocky took such a sustained amount of shots from Jersey Joe. Jersey Joe was a terrific puncher. I think that in and of it self proves his durability in comparison to Dempsey and what opposition did to him.
Willard had a very good chin ,who else other than Dempsey stopped him in his prime ?

PetethePrince

09-30-2009, 01:05 PM

Willard had a very good chin ,who else other than Dempsey stopped him in his prime ?

He was in his prime when he fought Dempsey? Nearly 37 years old and 3 years from previously fighting? :lol: A good chin and a tough guy but the man was obviously hittable, especially seeing as he was old and in his last fight against Firpo. He didn't really fight too often for a man of his time but the 1-3 Joe Cox apparently knocked him out... for whatever it's worth.

McGrain

09-30-2009, 01:28 PM

Ali and Louis would beat him clean IMO, I think Frazier might find himself in trouble versus Jack...close one. I'd pick Demspey, probably, if he had the right fight plan, I think he's harder to catch clean and I think he has better feet at his very best. Frazier could win though.

mcvey

09-30-2009, 03:29 PM

He was in his prime when he fought Dempsey? Nearly 37 years old and 3 years from previously fighting? :lol: A good chin and a tough guy but the man was obviously hittable, especially seeing as he was old and in his last fight against Firpo. He didn't really fight too often for a man of his time but the 1-3 Joe Cox apparently knocked him out... for whatever it's worth.
Cox didnt ko him he quit, Willard was not in shape .
When I said prime ,I meant before he retired to come back against Floyd Johnson , at the age of 42.
Apart from Dempsey and Firpo when Willard was nearly 43 who else put him down?

he grant

09-30-2009, 05:58 PM

Willard had a great chin. Before the Dempsey fight he never hit the floor. He did not have many fights as he turned pro at 29 and was near inactive from 1915 to 1919 ...

timmers612

09-30-2009, 09:30 PM

Long before Tyson came on the scene I always thought Joe would be a sitting duck in the first two rounds for Dempseys rock hard right hands for an early ko. Tyson the same, much the same style as Dempsey, just more !! in the early ko. Hydraulix has written the Dempsey-Louis comparison better then I could have, she covered everything there. Ali-Dempsey though is not so easy, Chuvalo did not have much speed moving forward, just strength and toughness, but he had Ali on the ropes often enough during their first bout with his body punches to put Jack as a good chance. Doug Jones and later Ellis showed Ali could be hit but a fast lead right if you had the tools and speed, and I think Dempsey showed against Willard he fit the bill there. I think Ali would have a little more left in the later rounds to take the decision, but its interesting.