Who ranks higher all-time: John Ruiz or Vitali Klitschko?

[Thread Stealer]

Who will go down as the superior heavyweight?

[Guru_Too_You]

As time passes, Ruiz.

The resume he has is quite formidable and Vitali's is weak as hell, besides his KO%.

[Tom_Tocca]

Who will go down as the superior heavyweight?

Beside his triology with past his prime Holyflied, Ruiz has done nothin that would have him ranked higher than Klitschko...

[Guru_Too_You]

Beside his triology with past his prime Holyflied, Ruiz has done nothin that would have him ranked higher than Klitschko...

LOL, and what did Klitschko do to rank him higher than Ruiz?

NOTHING. When the best thing on your resume is a loss, you have issues weighing in historically.

[the_what]

Ruiz is the best Heavyweight of this era.

[cross_trainer]

Both will rate about equal, sadly. A small core of boxing historians will know that Vitali was the much more talented fighter, but the average fan will look at boxrec and be unimpressed.

[cross_trainer]

Ruiz is the best Heavyweight of this era.

I'd say:

1) Wlad
2) Byrd
3) Vitali
4) Ruiz

[Jack]

NOTHING. When the best thing on your resume is a loss, you have issues weighing in historically.
Maybe the true historians go a little further than typing "Vitali Klitschko Boxrec" into Google :good

As weak as Vitali's resume is, you can't ignore how impressive the feats he achieed in his career were.


Was beating one very good and one ATG heavyweight on all 6 cards in those two fights, when injuries forced him to lose.

Lost less than 10 rounds in his entire pro career.

Has the highest knockout ratio pf heavyweight champion in history. Very few non-champion heavyweights, such as Mac Foster, have higher knockout ratios.

Was never knocked down legitimately.

[Guru_Too_You]

Maybe the true historians go a little further than typing "Vitali Klitschko Boxrec" into Google :good

As weak as Vitali's resume is, you can't ignore how impressive the feats he achieed in his career were.


Was beating one very good and one ATG heavyweight on all 6 cards in those two fights, when injuries forced him to lose.

Lost less than 10 rounds in his entire pro career.

Has the highest knockout ratio pf heavyweight champion in history. Very few non-champion heavyweights, such as Mac Foster, have higher knockout ratios.

Was never knocked down legitimately.

All impressive, but who was his best win again?

[cross_trainer]

Maybe the true historians go a little further than typing "Vitali Klitschko Boxrec" into Google :good

As weak as Vitali's resume is, you can't ignore how impressive the feats he achieed in his career were.


Was beating one very good and one ATG heavyweight on all 6 cards in those two fights, when injuries forced him to lose.

Lost less than 10 rounds in his entire pro career.

Has the highest knockout ratio pf heavyweight champion in history. Very few non-champion heavyweights, such as Mac Foster, have higher knockout ratios.

Was never knocked down legitimately.
That's the crowning irony. Despite a roller-coaster career marked with controversy, injuries, and last-minute fights, Vitali is one of the most statistically consistent fighters in history against B-grade opposition. Maybe THE most consistent.

[Guru_Too_You]

That's the crowning irony. Despite a roller-coaster career marked with controversy, injuries, and last-minute fights, Vitali is one of the most statistically consistent fighters in history against B-grade opposition. Maybe THE most consistent.

Sucks to be him then. At least Ruiz fought an all time great, historically highly rated heavyweight and bested him in a three part series.

If you limited Ruiz's career to the opponents that Vitali fought, they would most likely end up with the same record.

[Executioner]

as much as I hate to say it, it's Ruiz. His resume is clearly superior

[Guru_Too_You]

as much as I hate to say it, it's Ruiz. His resume is clearly superior

It is very painful to say, but its the truth. Even if you favor Vitali head to head, combining accomplishments and head to head, I'd still say that Ruiz squeaks by him.

[cross_trainer]

Sucks to be him then. At least Ruiz fought an all time great, historically highly rated heavyweight and bested him in a three part series.
A shot one, though. Ruiz's victory over Holyfield is hardly a landmark in the annals of boxing.


If you limited Ruiz's career to the opponents that Vitali fought, they would most likely end up with the same record.
I doubt it. Neither guy has great victories, but Ruiz couldn't put up the kind of performances that Vitali could...and lost to some that Vitali would not have, like Jones.

[Brickhaus]

H2H, Vitali. Based on resume, however, I don't think you can make a reasonable argument that Vitali comes out ahead. Ruiz just fought (and beat) much tougher competition, and it's not like the guys who beat Ruiz were any worse (aside from one) than the guys who beat Vitali.

[MacManJr.]

Gotta go with Huggy Bear I mean Ruiz.

[cross_trainer]

H2H, Vitali. Based on resume, however, I don't think you can make a reasonable argument that Vitali comes out ahead. Ruiz just fought (and beat) much tougher competition, and it's not like the guys who beat Ruiz were any worse (aside from one) than the guys who beat Vitali.

Jones, Toney, Tua, and Valuev are a step below Lewis and Byrd (both of whom Vitali was at least ahead against before retiring on injuries).

Ruiz may have the better legacy, but his losses are worse than Vitali's.

[Jose FM]

I dunno, maybe Vitali based on what could have been, and we all know what Ruiz was, and it wasnt anything close to Vitali.

[Thread Stealer]

I dunno, maybe Vitali based on what could have been, and we all know what Ruiz was, and it wasnt anything close to Vitali.

You rate fighters on what they did, not what they "could have been".

You can say lots of guys "could have been" something special.

[TheGreat]

Ruiz going away as he actually fought good competition and is a 2 time WBA champ who defended his title many times, Vitaly on the other hand is all hype with no substance, the highlight of his career was getting beat up by a shot LL.

[Zakman]

Who will go down as the superior heavyweight?
It's not even CLOSE. Unlike Ruiz, Vitali fought WITHIN the rules, and didn't use illegal and disreputable tactics like excessive holding or faking low blows. :-(

Ruiz is, and always has been, nothing more than a talentless clubfighter who would have been lucky to win a regional title without the influence of Don King. He is a fraud, and a disgrace to the sport, and most boxing fans know it!:yep

[Jose FM]

You rate fighters on what they did, not what they "could have been".

You can say lots of guys "could have been" something special.
Yeah but Ruiz only has one quality win and a draw agianst Holy, and lost to everyone important including former middleweight Jones. While Both of Vitali's losses were questionable. Plus Vitali can still come back and win a title.

[Thread Stealer]

Yeah but Ruiz only has one quality win and a draw agianst Holy, and lost to everyone important including former middleweight Jones. While Both of Vitali's losses were questionable. Plus Vitali can still come back and win a title.

There is nothing questionable about a guy quitting because of an injury, or losing because his eye is badly cut.

A questionable loss would be Ruiz to Holyfield and Valuev, or Quartey to De La Hoya, or De La Hoya to Trinidad, or Shavers to Ali, etc....

Part of being a fighter is being durable and having the body/skin to take the rigors of fighting.

Furthermore, Ruiz probably has more wins over guys who were heavyweight contenders at the time than Vitali does.

[kg0208]

I don't want to hear that Vitali retired due to injuries twice. That's skating over the truth.

You will not find another fighter whose fans say he retired due to injuries when the other fighter cut his face into ribbons with a punch. That's called a TKO. I don't care if he was ahead on the scorecards. He got stopped by something caused by a punch.

Ruiz fought and beat better opposition. But he lost more than Vitali as well. So they are about even. Vitali also had a Ring title.

[Jose FM]

There is nothing questionable about a guy quitting because of an injury, or losing because his eye is badly cut.

A questionable loss would be Ruiz to Holyfield and Valuev, or Quartey to De La Hoya, or De La Hoya to Trinidad, or Shavers to Ali, etc....

Part of being a fighter is being durable and having the body/skin to take the rigors of fighting.

Furthermore, Ruiz probably has more wins over guys who were heavyweight contenders at the time than Vitali does.
Dood had a separated shoulder in one fight which he was clearly in charge, and in the other he was ahead of the scorecards and was stopped, and we all saw what happened when it was stopped, Vitali was very upset and demanded a rematch and Lewis Never gave it to him, a true champ honors a re-match specially when he behind on scorecards. Barrera did it against Juarez, Louis did it against Walcott, and Lewis took the bitch road and retired! That in itself says something about Vitali. He didnt want it to be stopped he wanted to go on, but they didnt let him.

[Thread Stealer]

Dood had a separated shoulder in one fight which he was clearly in charge, and in the other he was ahead of the scorecards and was stopped, and we all saw what happened when it was stopped, Vitali was very upset and demanded a rematch and Lewis Never gave it to him, a true champ honors a re-match specially when he behind on scorecards. Barrera did it against Juarez, Louis did it against Walcott, and Lewis took the bitch road and retired!

Vitali doing well before losing is irrevelant. Big deal if he was ahead. What matters is winning and who you beat, not being ahead on points but losing because you can no longer continue.

Coming from behind to win is better than being ahead, but losing.

And there were plenty of guys more deserving of rematches than Vitali that never got one. Bad luck for Vitali, although he had the chance to establish himself from the rest of the HW pack. But injuries shortened his career, which makes this a viable comparison.

[kg0208]

Dood had a separated shoulder in one fight which he was clearly in charge, and in the other he was ahead of the scorecards and was stopped, and we all saw what happened when it was stopped, Vitali was very upset and demanded a rematch and Lewis Never gave it to him, a true champ honors a re-match specially when he behind on scorecards. Barrera did it against Juarez, Louis did it against Walcott, and Lewis took the bitch road and retired! That in itself says something about Vitali. He didnt want it to be stopped he wanted to go on, but they didnt let him.

BS on the true champ honors a rematch crap. It would be different if he fought someone instead of Vitali. He retired.

[kaygb]

Ruiz. Just stop and think. What was Vitalis best win? "The Fat Man" Kirk Johnson? Hoffman? Comparing the resume of Ruiz and Vitali, Ruiz comes out on top. And to top it off, Vitalis best showing was a loss. I can hear it now in 20 years. "Man that Vitali was a great one. Did you see that loss to Lewis?"
Yep, Ruiz comes out on top.

[precision]

should be ruiz

[brooklyn1550]

I'd go with Vitali by a hair...he was the Ring champion and lost only twice. You can very well make a case for Ruiz. Head to head, Vitali is well above Ruiz.

[TheGreat]

Dood had a separated shoulder in one fight which he was clearly in charge, and in the other he was ahead of the scorecards and was stopped, and we all saw what happened when it was stopped, Vitali was very upset and demanded a rematch and Lewis Never gave it to him, a true champ honors a re-match specially when he behind on scorecards. Barrera did it against Juarez, Louis did it against Walcott, and Lewis took the bitch road and retired! That in itself says something about Vitali. He didnt want it to be stopped he wanted to go on, but they didnt let him.

Holy at age 40 had a torn rotater cuff against Byrd and didn't quit, Quitaly quit because he was tired and Byrd was starting to come on strong, as for LL, vitaly had a shot out of shape guy in front of him who was even in worse shape than he was for Rahman in the first fight and Vitaly still lost. If he was really as good as you think he is he would have dominated shot LL the way real greats do against shot fighters like Rocky did Louis, Tyson did Holmes, Holmes did Ali, Holy did Foreman, or Lewis himself did Tyson.

[Zakman]

Whatever Vitali's faults, at least he was a legitimate champion who beat his opponents with his superior abilities - not by cheating and corruption!!

[cuchulain]

By resume: Ruiz

Head-to-head: Vitali (by early KO)

[kg0208]

Whatever Vitali's faults, at least he was a legitimate champion who beat his opponents with his superior abilities - not by cheating and corruption!!

Actually his ring title is questionable.....what were the special circumstances under which he was allowed to fight #3 for it?

[Ted Stickles]

Who will go down as the superior heavyweight?

Ruiz has a more impressive resume and Vitali has always reminded me of Razor Ruddock, someone who made there name off of a loss and that gets you nowhere

[PH|LLA]

Those who know of boxing will know that Vitali was simply a cut above Ruiz

The boxrec junkies might argue differently in 10 years

[Lance_Uppercut]

Vitali is obviously more talented the Ruiz. And a shit lot more entertaining. But when it comes to accomplishments, they are pretty close. Vitali was the ring belt (which I believe was given to him prematurely), but Ruiz has the better wins and title defenses.

[aliwasthegreatest]

ruiz. yea Vitali was procactly a better fighter (though he never really had a chance to prove that), but ruiz has wins over better comp

[Zakman]

Excessive holding is against the rules, people. Don't just look at the record, look at the rule book.

And faking low blows is one of the lowest things you can do in boxing - and Ruiz has done this MULTIPLE times, in several fights!! :patsch

[Zakman]

Those who know of boxing will know that Vitali was simply a cut above Ruiz

The boxrec junkies might argue differently in 10 years

I just LOVE how all these people just look at the names on Ruiz's record, and assume that because he shared a ring with some recognizable names he's any good!:patsch

Apparently they are not aware of what an utter fraud Ruiz is - a glorfied clubfighter who would never have sniffed contention, let alone "won" some paper title, if it weren't for Don King. :-(

From the moment King manuevered Ruiz into contention, and he started facing decent fighters, he began to hold excessively and fake low blows. And the King-influenced refs turned the other way and let him get away with it. What a DISGRACE!

[Rock0052]

Fuck Ruiz. I'm not going to pretend to be unbiased, but I still have some facts on my side:

1) When was Ruiz ever thought of as "the man" at Heavyweight? As much as I see people holding it against Vitali, I can't remember at any point in time where Ruiz was the universal #1.

2) Losses. Ruiz is the only Heavyweight "champ" in history to have lost to 2 former middleweights. He also was the only one I've ever heard of knocked in 19 seconds. Vitali's losses were against better competition, and much more closely contended.

3) Dominance in wins. Vitali beat his competition (which was not that much worse than Ruiz's) in much more dominant fashion.

[Zakman]

Vitali beat his competition (which was not that much worse than Ruiz's) in much more dominant fashion.

Not only that, he did it WITHIN the rules.:yep

[Rock0052]

Not only that, he did it WITHIN the rules.:yep

Exactly :good

[Illmatic]

any objective person will say ruiz

[PH|LLA]

actually even looking at records, Vitaly trounces Ruiz

17s KO loss to David Tua!

wtf

beaten by Roy Jones

beaten by Toney

beaten by Valuev

knocked down twice by Golota

Holyfield was clearly shot when they went life and death 3 times.

and his early losses against total nobodies.

Vitaly lost twice only, to Byrd in a fight he dominated and to Lewis


I dont see how anyone could say Ruiz

[Illmatic]

actually even looking at records, Vitaly trounces Ruiz


17s KO loss to David Tua!
and Vitaly quit agaisnt Byrd

beaten by Roy Jones

beaten by Toney

negative. Toney was cheating, and got caught.

beaten by Valuev

most people score this fight for ruiz

knocked down twice by Golota

yup, and his trainer was ejected, and Ruiz swept the final 8 rounds and won.

Holyfield was clearly shot when they went life and death 3 times.

holy in his last fight fought a close fight with Lewis, and holy is still fighting for titles today.

and his early losses against total nobodies.

his sterling reign, the best title reign of the 2000s, trumps early split decision losses to prospects

Vitaly lost twice only, to Byrd in a fight he dominated and to Lewis

and what was his title reign like?


I dont see how anyone could say Ruiz
i dont know how anyone can say vitali b/c of his wins over sanders and williams and a loss to lewis

[Amsterdam]

As time passes, Ruiz.

The resume he has is quite formidable and Vitali's is weak as hell, besides his KO%.

Resume is not just wins. Ruiz never dominated anyone decent and has to rely on unfair practice and gift decisions at times.

[Amsterdam]

actually even looking at records, Vitaly trounces Ruiz

17s KO loss to David Tua!

wtf

beaten by Roy Jones

beaten by Toney

beaten by Valuev

knocked down twice by Golota

Holyfield was clearly shot when they went life and death 3 times.

and his early losses against total nobodies.

Vitaly lost twice only, to Byrd in a fight he dominated and to Lewis


I dont see how anyone could say Ruiz

Exactly, resume's include losses and HOW fights were won.

[Illmatic]

Resume is not just wins. Ruiz never dominated anyone decent and has to rely on unfair practice and gift decisions at times.

vitali never dominated anyone decent

[Amsterdam]

vitali never dominated anyone decent

Yes he did. Let's take Kirk Johnson for example, out of shape, but Vitali blasted him and would have always blasted him.

How about the only man to ever stop the underrated Larry Donald?

How about dominative wins over Sanders - Williams - Hoffman?

You said 'decent'.

Meanwhile, let's look at losses, which 'Pharoah' highlighted Ruiz's.

Vitali's - Dominating Byrd, injury forced a withdrawl. Competitive fight with an ATG in Lewis, injury forces a withdrawl when he was up by a bit.

It's not even comparable. Vitali would not have lost to Jones, Toney, Valuev, Chagaev, that version of Holyfield and wouldn't have been blown out in 17 seconds against Tua.

[Illmatic]

Yes he did. Let's take Kirk Johnson for example, out of shape, but Vitali blasted him and would have always blasted him.

How about the only man to ever stop the underrated Larry Donald?

How about dominative wins over Sanders - Williams - Hoffman?

You said 'decent'.

Meanwhile, let's look at losses, which 'Pharoah' highlighted Ruiz's.

Vitali's - Dominating Byrd, injury forced a withdrawl. Competitive fight with an ATG in Lewis, injury forces a withdrawl when he was up by a bit.

It's not even comparable. Vitali would not have lost to Jones, Toney, Valuev, Chagaev, that version of Holyfield and wouldn't have been blown out in 17 seconds against Tua.

they each had two title reigns...compare those for me.

[cross_trainer]

vitali never dominated anyone decent

They were still far better than anyone Ruiz dominated. Vitali also didn't lose to fighters of Kobozev/Nicholson calibre.



On Ruiz's side, you have:

NC 12 James Toney (where he was losing badly, despite Toney's steroids)

D Shot Holyfield

L Chagaev
L Valuev
L Shot Holyfield
L Jones
L Tua (19 second knockout)
L Kobozev
L Nicholson

W Golota
W Oquendo
W Kirk Johnson (by DQ...hardly satisfying there)
W Shot Holyfield
W Rahman


Yes, he has some impressive wins, but he also has a few glaring losses that no other top heavyweight would have suffered (aside from Wladimir Klitschko, ironically--but he only made that mistake once, not twice). None of Ruiz's wins were dominant.



Vitali:

W (KO) Williams
W (KO) Sanders
W (KO) Johnson
W (KO) Donald
W (KO) Hide

L Lennox Lewis (injury)
L Chris Byrd (injury)


None of these victories are quite as good as Ruiz's win over Rahman, but Vitali was far more consistent than Ruiz was, and always won in impressive, dominant fashion. Moreover, both of his losses were closer, and against better opposition, than any of Ruiz's losses....and he never lost to a fighter like Kobozev or Nicholson. Heck, I don't think he lost a round against a fighter like Kobozev or Nicholson.

That's why Vitali is a bit above Ruiz. Ruiz's wins are better only if you ignore how he won...but even if you do so, you can't ignore his losses.

[cross_trainer]

Whoops. I just noticed someone else already made a post very similar to the previous one.

[Illmatic]

so really, vitali has two decent wins over two former wbo titlists (sanders, hide) and ruiz has two decent wins over two former undisputed champions (rahman, holyfield)

[cross_trainer]

they each had two title reigns...compare those for me.

Paper titles--only worthwhile to denote the four top contenders and/or if they are unified.

We're looking at the quality of fighters each beat, not whether there was an ABC title involved in any of these cases. That's why most rate Liston above Patterson--because most of his best wins came before the title.

[cross_trainer]

so really, vitali has two decent wins over two former wbo titlists (sanders, hide) and ruiz has two decent wins over two former undisputed champions (rahman, holyfield)
Vitali has five wins against decent contenders.
Ruiz has five wins against decent contenders.

Vitali destroyed his five contenders.
Ruiz squeaked by them.

Vitali has two losses to a lineal champion and the second-best fighter of his generation.
Ruiz has 7 losses, 1 NC where he was dominated, and 1 draw to lesser opposition.



...And Holyfield was clearly shot. That is, unless you intend to give Donald, Toney, and soon Ibragimov credit for beating a "former lineal champion" as well.

[A-50]

Watching a Vitali Klitschko fight it was clear who the winner was. A John Ruiz fight when he did not get beat was usually a close controversial criminal decision. Not to mention Ruiz was schooled TWICE by former Middleweights for christ sakes! TWICE!. Ruiz did not fight within the rules and was used by King in hopes of getting the huge Hispanic fanbase behind a Heavyweight fighter. Too bad that fighter had little skill and did not fight within the rules. King's master plan back fired. Ruiz is a joke.

[A-50]

Vitali has five wins against decent contenders.
Ruiz has five wins against decent contenders.

Vitali destroyed his five contenders.
Ruiz squeaked by them.

Vitali has two losses to a lineal champion and the second-best fighter of his generation.
Ruiz has 7 losses, 1 NC where he was dominated, and 1 draw to lesser opposition.



...And Holyfield was clearly shot. That is, unless you intend to give Donald, Toney, and soon Ibragimov credit for beating a "former lineal champion" as well.


Ruiz also got his ass kicked by 2 former Middleweights, one that has a Glass Jaw one of the worst in the sport. Case Closed.

[lefthook31]

Ruiz has accomplished way more than Vitali ever will.

[A-50]

Ruiz has accomplished way more than Vitali ever will.


Like getting beat by Glass Jaw Roy Jones and a fat James Toney? :lol: :lol:

[2ironmt]

H2H, Vitali. Based on resume, however, I don't think you can make a reasonable argument that Vitali comes out ahead. Ruiz just fought (and beat) much tougher competition, and it's not like the guys who beat Ruiz were any worse (aside from one) than the guys who beat Vitali.it's fun to hate on vitali, but what are ruiz's best wins??? golota (should've been a loss and that version of golota wasn't near best) rahman (forget fight but that guy's clearly beatable) oquendo (very close boring fight ok win) holyfield (2001 version not that great) and dq win over kirk johnson????? looks like some questionable wins versus b/bplus level comp


at least vitali actually clearly beat fighters of the above calibre: kirk johnson (blow out) corrie sanders, hide, donald...and anyone with any knowledge knows he was beating byrd soundly and gave lennox lewis all he could handle... i'll take vitali's resume (throw in the overall ko percentage) by a wide margin and head to head it's not even close

[cross_trainer]

Rather sad, actually, that these two are two of the four best of their era and they have such disputable wins over often questionable opposition. Same with Byrd, actually.

[Guru_Too_You]

Rather sad, actually, that these two are two of the four best of their era and they have such disputable wins over often questionable opposition. Same with Byrd, actually.

King really put a hurting on the HW division for a few years.

[EpsilonAxis]

Vitali was probably the better fighter.

But Ruiz has the better, and may I add a very underrated record. One of the best in the HW division over the last few years.

[Thread Stealer]

I'd like to see Vitali lose against Roy Jones Jnr, what a bloody stupid thread..
Vitali would have destroyed Ruiz.

This is not a head-to-head comparison.

It's who goes down higher in history, which has more to do (or should have more to do) with resume, not saying who you think would've won head-to-head.

[RUSKULL]

I'd say:

1) Wlad
2) Byrd
3) Vitali
4) Ruiz

Exactly. Well put.

[KobeIsGod]

Vitali knocked people out. That's what heavyweights are supposed to do. Ruiz won by let's say questionable means. I think its important to evaluate the manner in which a boxer wins and that's where Ruiz really comes up short.

Vitali was considered the number 1 hw and was Ring Champ, Ruiz was not.

Since Lewis:

1-Wlad-Universally ranked #1, best opposition, dominant
2-Vitali-Ring champ, ranked #1, dominant
3-Byrd
4-Brewster
5-Ruiz

[Feiti]

For those of you who say Ruiz record is so good, why don´t you look it up on boxrec.com

The losses against Sergei Kobozev, Danell Nicholson, David Tua, past it Evander Holyfield, Roy Jones, James Toney, Nikolai Valuev and finally Ruslan Chagaev, are nothing to brag about.

Ruiz also got a gift decision over Golota, who put him on the deck in their fight as well as a gift draw against Holyfield.

Ruiz´s best wins were against a pretty faded Holyfield an out of shape Rahman and a lousy DQ against Kirk Johnson.

Ruiz´s resume is nothing much.

[Guru_Too_You]

For those of you who say Ruiz record is so good, why don´t you look it up on boxrec.com

The losses against Sergei Kobozev, Danell Nicholson, David Tua, past it Evander Holyfield, Roy Jones, James Toney, Nikolai Valuev and finally Ruslan Chagaev, are nothing to brag about.

Ruiz also got a gift decision over Golota, who put him on the deck in their fight as well as a gift draw against Holyfield.

Ruiz´s best wins were against a pretty faded Holyfield an out of shape Rahman and a lousy DQ against Kirk Johnson.

Ruiz´s resume is nothing much.

And what does that say about Vitali that this is still debatable?

[China_hand_Joe]

John Ruiz is still the HW champion in my eyes.

[Relentless]

All impressive, but who was his best win again?

herbie hide?

[Relentless]

ruiz has a better resume, vitlays claim to fame is losing to an old unprepared lewis, and the best fighter he beat are danny williams and fat kirk johnson.

[RUSKULL]

And what does that say about Vitali that this is still debatable?

Debatable to you maybe, most would find the comparision stupid.

[Zakman]

That's why Vitali is a bit above Ruiz. Ruiz's wins are better only if you ignore how he won...but even if you do so, you can't ignore his losses.
Bingo. The "how" Ruiz "won" is critiical, and when it is factored in that he won by questionable means, it is no contest. This really shouldn't even be debated.

Ruiz = glorified clubfighter with questionable "wins" and many losses.

Vitali = top level world class HW with clear-cut victories and only two losses, both to top level comp.

This is really a no-brainer, people! :yep

[shavers]

Ruiz, he achieved a lot more than Vitali, beat the better names and actually had a reign, which is more than you can say about the ukrainian.
People who vote for vitali dont know shit about boxing, and is blinded by the klitsko hype and spin, there are polluting this forum......

[lefthook31]

Like getting beat by Glass Jaw Roy Jones and a fat James Toney? :lol: :lol:
No like winning the title twice and beating guys like Holyfield, Rahman who Vitali avoided, Golota, Johnson, and actually fighting guys like James Toney and Roy Jones, something Vitali has never done. Vitali's whole career has been based on Lewis' surgical reconstruction on his face, and quitting against Chris Byrd. Other than that hes hasnt done shit in boxing besides beating up on a bunch of garbage cans and part time golfers.:dead

[RUSKULL]

ruiz has a better resume, vitlays claim to fame is losing to an old unprepared lewis, and the best fighter he beat are danny williams and fat kirk johnson.

Putting the word "fat" in front of Kirk Johnson's name doesn't lessen the fact that no one before or after Vitali beat him so easily or quickly does it? Of course it doesn't.......................

[RUSKULL]

Ruiz, he achieved a lot more than Vitali, beat the better names and actually had a reign, which is more than you can say about the ukrainian.
People who vote for vitali dont know shit about boxing, and is blinded by the klitsko hype and spin, there are polluting this forum......

Fuck off! :good

[RUSKULL]

No like winning the title twice and beating guys like Holyfield, Rahman who Vitali avoided, Golota, Johnson, and actually fighting guys like James Toney and Roy Jones, something Vitali has never done. Vitali's whole career has been based on Lewis' surgical reconstruction on his face, and quitting against Chris Byrd. Other than that hes hasnt done shit in boxing besides beating up on a bunch of garbage cans and part time golfers.:dead

:-(

[Guru_Too_You]

Debatable to you maybe, most would find the comparision stupid.

Which would explain how many people voted confidently for Ruiz right asshole?

And your avatar certainly shows that you're probably not biased at all as well right?

[lefthook31]

:-(
delusional

[shavers]

Fuck off! :good

I should fuck off, because I dont agree with you...
How mature!

[A-50]

No like winning the title twice and beating guys like Holyfield, Rahman who Vitali avoided, Golota, Johnson, and actually fighting guys like James Toney and Roy Jones, something Vitali has never done. Vitali's whole career has been based on Lewis' surgical reconstruction on his face, and quitting against Chris Byrd. Other than that hes hasnt done shit in boxing besides beating up on a bunch of garbage cans and part time golfers.:dead


LOL. Ruiz had to fake a low blow to beat Johnson, Klitschko smashed him in 2 rounds. Klitachko was Glass Jaw Roy Jones mandatory for the WBA belt. What did Roy do? He dropped the belt. What does it say about John Ruiz when Glass Jaw Roy HANDPICKS YOU for a Heavyweight belt? It means Ruiz was a joke. You think Glass Jaw Roy would have ever stepped in the ring with Vitali? No way.

[Zakman]

No like winning the title twice and beating guys like Holyfield, Rahman who Vitali avoided, Golota, Johnson, and actually fighting guys like James Toney and Roy Jones, something Vitali has never done.

Ruiz got one of the most bogus Don King-influenced gift decisions of the last 5 years against Golota, LOST to middleweights Jones and Toney, and faked low blows to get an utterly bogus DQ "win" against Johnson.:yep

That boxing fans give this FRAUD any credence whatsoever is truly sad. Ruiz - and King - not only cheated his opponents of their rightful opportunity to win WITHIN the rules, he cheated the fans of their right to see the boxing matches they PAID to see. :patsch

[Guru_Too_You]

Ruiz got one of the most bogus Don King-influenced gift decisions of the last 5 years against Golota, LOST to middleweights Jones and Toney, and faked low blows to get an utterly bogus DQ "win" against Johnson.:yep

That boxing fans give this FRAUD any credence whatsoever is truly sad. Ruiz - and King - not only cheated his opponents of their rightful opportunity to win WITHIN the rules, he cheated the fans of their right to see the boxing matches they PAID to see. :patsch

I'm pressing hard, but what PPV's did Ruiz take part in besides the Jones Jr. one?

[Relentless]

Putting the word "fat" in front of Kirk Johnson's name doesn't lessen the fact that no one before or after Vitali beat him so easily or quickly does it? Of course it doesn't.......................

john ruiz was also the first person to ko jerry ballard, no one before could do such a thing.:good

[Guru_Too_You]

Putting the word "fat" in front of Kirk Johnson's name doesn't lessen the fact that no one before or after Vitali beat him so easily or quickly does it? Of course it doesn't.......................

Putting the word "old" in front of Evander Holyfield's name doesnt lessen the fact that no one before or after John dropped him with one punch without accumulation does it? Of course it doesn't..................

[lefthook31]

Ruiz got one of the most bogus Don King-influenced gift decisions of the last 5 years against Golota, LOST to middleweights Jones and Toney, and faked low blows to get an utterly bogus DQ "win" against Johnson.:yep

That boxing fans give this FRAUD any credence whatsoever is truly sad. Ruiz - and King - not only cheated his opponents of their rightful opportunity to win WITHIN the rules, he cheated the fans of their right to see the boxing matches they PAID to see. :patsch

Bullshit, any fighter with a big time promoter can be considered the beneficiary of influence by their promoter. Ruiz still fought and beat credible fighters. He dropped Holyfield, dropped Johnson who hit him low to get out of the fight from frustration. He holds wins over mandatories and some decent fighters. As far as Toney, I think he proved he could hang with just about all the heavyweights out there, and Jones is an all time great, who never faced another heavy for us to judge him against, so your comments dont really add up.
Yeah Ruiz was an ugly boring fighter to watch, but hes accomplished a lot more than Vitali who has LOST in all his marquee fights, something Ruiz is 50/50 in.

[Zakman]

Bullshit, any fighter with a big time promoter can be considered the beneficiary of influence by their promoter.

Yeah, but most fighters have some sort of ABILITY that justifies their ranking. Ruiz didn't have the ability to compete at the world class level, so he had to continually violate the rules against excessive holding - and when that didn't work, fake low blows. And not just in the Johnson fight, either - he faked low blows in fights at least twice before that. And his connections allowed him to get away with this shit!!:patsch

It's one thing to use connections to get rated, or get gift decisions - that happens quite a bit, although it is very much part of what is WRONG with this sport. What sets Ruiz apart, though, is the manner in which his connections allowed him to violate the basic rules of the sport, and thus make a mockery of it.

It is why he is such a DISGRACE to this game, and truly, the poster-boy for boxing corruption.:yep

[samita]

how can someone compare ruiz's resume to vitali's? who did vitali beat again?

[Mendoza]

Ruiz is the best Heavyweight of this era.

Ruiz, the best heavyweigh tof his era? E[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[lefthook31]

Yeah, but most fighters have some sort of ABILITY that justifies their ranking. Ruiz didn't have the ability to compete at the world class level, so he had to continually violate the rules against excessive holding - and when that didn't work, fake low blows. And not just in the Johnson fight, either - he faked low blows in fights at least twice before that. And his connections allowed him to get away with this shit!!:patsch

It's one thing to use connections to get rated, or get gift decisions - that happens quite a bit, although it is very much part of what is WRONG with this sport. What sets Ruiz apart, though, is the manner in which his connections allowed him to violate the basic rules of the sport, and thus make a mockery of it.

It is why he is such a DISGRACE to this game, and truly, the poster-boy for boxing corruption.:yep

I believe just like most fighters, Ruiz was positioned and given a chance at a title, due to him allowing King to guide and control his career. Although he did have some sketchy fights, he did have quite a few fights that proved to me, he was capable of competing with the top guys, not that thats saying much. His holding is no worse than Holyfields headbutts, Lennox Lewis excessive holding and leaning on the back of his opponents necks, and the same for Wladmir Klitschko. Sam Peter hits his opponents on the back of their head in clinches, Tyson elbowed, Bowe hit off the break. They all cheat and foul, but alot of times the more exciting fighters fouls are overlooked. I dont like Ruiz, dont like his style, but he proved to be effective, and successful as a heavyweight, and Vitali will never come close to his accomplishments, like them or not, and thats the question of this thread.

[Vanboxingfan]

I believe just like most fighters, Ruiz was positioned and given a chance at a title, due to him allowing King to guide and control his career. Although he did have some sketchy fights, he did have quite a few fights that proved to me, he was capable of competing with the top guys, not that thats saying much. His holding is no worse than Holyfields headbutts, Lennox Lewis excessive holding and leaning on the back of his opponents necks, and the same for Wladmir Klitschko. Sam Peter hits his opponents on the back of their head in clinches, Tyson elbowed, Bowe hit off the break. They all cheat and foul, but alot of times the more exciting fighters fouls are overlooked. I dont like Ruiz, dont like his style, but he proved to be effective, and successful as a heavyweight, and Vitali will never come close to his accomplishments, like them or not, and thats the question of this thread.

I haven't read the tread (god help me if I had too) but I agree with this comment. In terms of fighting styles and perhaps even skill, I like Vitali way more than Ruiz, but in terms of actual accomplishments, I reluctantly have to give the edge to Ruiz. Strangely enough I would probably have had a different opinion if Vitali had actually beat a past prime Lewis.

[standing 8]

Ruiz is a crafty boxer but I can't stand his "fighting not to lose" style back when he held a belt.

[Shotgun]

Ruiz is a fraud and the poster boy for the type way fraudulent decisions and corrupt promoters can ruin the sport. Vitali's potential was unrealized by waiting too long to step up his level of competition, but at least his wins were convincing and clear cut and he always disposed of his opposition clearly and within the rules, and his losses were both fights where he put on a good display against credible opponents

The Boxrec warriors/Klitschko haters will tell you it's Ruiz because they ignore the circumstances surrounding the way Ruiz "won" and the the way he got title paws in the belt in the first place. They also ignore the fact that he was humiliated not once but twice against former middleweight champs and got KTFO in 19 seconds in the prime of his career, to say nothing of his other numerous losses

If you ignore all the circumstances surrounding his ascension and ignore all his losses and go strictly on what boxrec lists as victories, then you can say Ruiz was better. If you actually watched the two of them fight, take losses into account and not only who they lost to but how they lost, and understand the circumstances that allowed the Ruiz Fraud to take place then it's not even close, Vitali clearly comes out on top.

[lefthook31]

Ruiz is a fraud and the poster boy for the type way fraudulent decisions and corrupt promoters can ruin the sport. Vitali's potential was unrealized by waiting too long to step up his level of competition, but at least his wins were convincing and clear cut and he always disposed of his opposition clearly and within the rules, and his losses were both fights where he put on a good display against credible opponents

The Boxrec warriors/Klitschko haters will tell you it's Ruiz because they ignore the circumstances surrounding the way Ruiz "won" and the the way he got title paws in the belt in the first place. They also ignore the fact that he was humiliated not once but twice against former middleweight champs and got KTFO in 19 seconds in the prime of his career, to say nothing of his other numerous losses

If you ignore all the circumstances surrounding his ascension and ignore all his losses and go strictly on what boxrec lists as victories, then you can say Ruiz was better. If you actually watched the two of them fight, take losses into account and not only who they lost to but how they lost, and understand the circumstances that allowed the Ruiz Fraud to take place then it's not even close, Vitali clearly comes out on top.

This is the biggest bunch of horseshit I have ever read.:good

Ruiz accomplishments outweigh Klitschkos ten times. Remember Klitschko lost to Lewis and Byrd, the two best fighters he faced, regardless of what you think might have happened had the fights continued, which is pure speculation.

Like the champion emeritus never got any special treatment from the promoters and sanctioning bodies? yeah right

[Vanboxingfan]

Ruiz got one of the most bogus Don King-influenced gift decisions of the last 5 years against Golota, LOST to middleweights Jones and Toney, and faked low blows to get an utterly bogus DQ "win" against Johnson.:yep

That boxing fans give this FRAUD any credence whatsoever is truly sad. Ruiz - and King - not only cheated his opponents of their rightful opportunity to win WITHIN the rules, he cheated the fans of their right to see the boxing matches they PAID to see. :patsch

Ya but he beat Holyfield, and that's really gotta hurt...:rofl

The shame of it all. Poor ol Holyfield lost to a fraud.

[Zakman]

Ya but he beat Holyfield, and that's really gotta hurt...:rofl

The shame of it all. Poor ol Holyfield lost to a fraud.

Not without Ruiz faking "low blows" to avoid being counted out. Not the last time he'd pull that stunt either.

Shotgun said it all - when ALL the factors are taken into account, there is no comparison. Ruiz couldn't carry Vitali's jockstrap - or that of any other decent fighter who fought WITHIN the rules, for that matter.:yep

[lefthook31]

Not without Ruiz faking "low blows" to avoid being counted out. Not the last time he'd pull that stunt either.

Shotgun said it all - when ALL the factors are taken into account, there is no comparison. Ruiz couldn't carry Vitali's jockstrap - or that of any other decent fighter who fought WITHIN the rules, for that matter.:yep

So you dont think Johnsons low blows were legit? I likened them to Golotas against Bowe. He was trying to get out of the fight from pure frustration. He was led to believe by his promoters that he would simply outclass Ruiz by showing up, and that wasnt the case. By mid fight he was frustrated fouling and was dropped by a clean right hand from Ruiz. The eventual stoppage was a relief to him I believe.

[Zakman]

So you dont think Johnsons low blows were legit? I likened them to Golotas against Bowe. He was trying to get out of the fight from pure frustration. He was led to believe by his promoters that he would simply outclass Ruiz by showing up, and that wasnt the case. By mid fight he was frustrated fouling and was dropped by a clean right hand from Ruiz. The eventual stoppage was a relief to him I believe.

Ruiz overacted on several on those shots - a stunt he pulled at least twice before it, in the Holyfield fight, Evander put him on the canvas with a body shot, Ruiz hammed it up to get a "low blow" call. He'd done it before against Jimmy Thunder.

One fight, you could maybe excuse, but THREE. That's a planned, and repeated, strategy. He didn't employ it as much as excessive holding, but it was surely his fallback approach.

When you don't have the skill to compete at the world-class level, you have to be creative - I'll give Ruiz that. It doesn't make it right or justified, however.

[cross_trainer]

Ruiz accomplishments outweigh Klitschkos ten times. Remember Klitschko lost to Lewis and Byrd, the two best fighters he faced,

The two best fighters EITHER fighter faced. Out of all of the fighters who beat either Klitschko or Ruiz, these are the two best.

[Shotgun]

This is the biggest bunch of horseshit I have ever read.:good

Ruiz accomplishments outweigh Klitschkos ten times. Remember Klitschko lost to Lewis and Byrd, the two best fighters he faced
John Ruiz is the only heavyweight titlist in over 100 years to lose to a former middleweight, and he did it TWICE, against two different fighters :lol:

Vitali lost to Lennox Lewis and Chris Byrd. Aside from Holyfield, John Ruiz lost to Roy Jones, James Toney, was KTFO in under 20 seconds by David Tua (who also lost to Lewis and Byrd by the way, and much more convincingly than Vitali did :yep), Valuev, Chagaev, as well as elite level opponents like Kobozev and Doc Nicholson. And that's not even bringing up the half dozen or so highly controversial "wins" he has an his record.

And you're talking shit about Vitali losing to Lewis and Byrd? You said something about horse shit? Only an all out nitwit would hold Vitali's losses against him in an argument defending John Ruiz, given who they lost to, how they lost, and how many times they lost

[Cojimar 1945]

Ruiz's resume seems better than Vitali's and he ranks higher all time.

[Mind Reader]

Id say Vitali, his performances were in much more superior fashion.

[sues2nd]

If we are going on talent....then its Vitali. If its accomplishments, resume, etc....its Ruiz, and its not even close.

[Zakman]

Ruiz is a fraud and the poster boy for the type way fraudulent decisions and corrupt promoters can ruin the sport. Vitali's potential was unrealized by waiting too long to step up his level of competition, but at least his wins were convincing and clear cut and he always disposed of his opposition clearly and within the rules, and his losses were both fights where he put on a good display against credible opponents

The Boxrec warriors/Klitschko haters will tell you it's Ruiz because they ignore the circumstances surrounding the way Ruiz "won" and the the way he got title paws in the belt in the first place. They also ignore the fact that he was humiliated not once but twice against former middleweight champs and got KTFO in 19 seconds in the prime of his career, to say nothing of his other numerous losses

If you ignore all the circumstances surrounding his ascension and ignore all his losses and go strictly on what boxrec lists as victories, then you can say Ruiz was better. If you actually watched the two of them fight, take losses into account and not only who they lost to but how they lost, and understand the circumstances that allowed the Ruiz Fraud to take place then it's not even close, Vitali clearly comes out on top.

Exactly. That boxing fans give this fraud ANY credibility, after he cheated THEM, as well as his opponents, is sad.:yep

[caballo]

John Ruiz was the first latino heavyweight champion ever. Vitali never won a title and had a premature retirement. There's no comparison.

[Lance_Uppercut]

Every fighter has losses to lesser fighters. Yes Ruiz lost a few times. So did Vitali. It's WINS that move you on the ATG list.

[Lance_Uppercut]

John Ruiz is the only heavyweight titlist in over 100 years to lose to a former middleweight, and he did it TWICE, against two different fighters :lol:

Vitali lost to Lennox Lewis and Chris Byrd. Aside from Holyfield, John Ruiz lost to Roy Jones, James Toney, was KTFO in under 20 seconds by David Tua (who also lost to Lewis and Byrd by the way, and much more convincingly than Vitali did :yep), Valuev, Chagaev, as well as elite level opponents like Kobozev and Doc Nicholson. And that's not even bringing up the half dozen or so highly controversial "wins" he has an his record.

And you're talking shit about Vitali losing to Lewis and Byrd? You said something about horse shit? Only an all out nitwit would hold Vitali's losses against him in an argument defending John Ruiz, given who they lost to, how they lost, and how many times they lost

OK...now look at who each BEAT and get back with me. :good

NO matter how you spin it, or what excuses one might want to use. Ruiz has the greater wins. And that is what makes you great.

[Axe]

Easily VK.

Ruiz will go down as the fraud that he was.

[Antsu]

Ruiz has better accomplishments in he’s career so I think he will be remembered as a greater fighter.

It’s also funny how same people discredit Ruiz because of he’s lose against Toney but in other threads don’t give Toney credit for the win because they don’t see that win legimate.

[Mendoza]

Ruiz got his butt handed to him by two blow up middle weights, KTFO in 18 seconds by TUA, and decisioned by two non top ten fighters. If that isn't enough, he was beaten by Valuev, and Chagaev. Valuev doesn't look to be that good. I could care less if Ruiz should have won the Valuev fight 7-5, it is payback for what Ruiz has done. Chagaev's legacy is not set, but he did beat Ruiz.

While Ruiz won some matches, he did it by excessive mugging and fouling, and under the protection of Don King Judges and referee’s. There is no way Ruiz should rank higher than Vitlai Klitshcko. Vitali was far more convincing in victory and defeat.

[A-50]

John Ruiz was the first latino heavyweight champion ever. Vitali never won a title and had a premature retirement. There's no comparison.


You realize Klitschko was the WBC and Ring Champion right? So, I would not say he never won a title. :patsch

[Max Molyneux]

Whatever Vitali's faults, at least he was a legitimate champion who beat his opponents with his superior abilities - not by cheating and corruption!!

Vitali only ever fought 2 world class fighters and lost to both of them though.

[lefthook31]

John Ruiz is the only heavyweight titlist in over 100 years to lose to a former middleweight, and he did it TWICE, against two different fighters :lol:

Vitali lost to Lennox Lewis and Chris Byrd. Aside from Holyfield, John Ruiz lost to Roy Jones, James Toney, was KTFO in under 20 seconds by David Tua (who also lost to Lewis and Byrd by the way, and much more convincingly than Vitali did :yep), Valuev, Chagaev, as well as elite level opponents like Kobozev and Doc Nicholson. And that's not even bringing up the half dozen or so highly controversial "wins" he has an his record.

And you're talking shit about Vitali losing to Lewis and Byrd? You said something about horse shit? Only an all out nitwit would hold Vitali's losses against him in an argument defending John Ruiz, given who they lost to, how they lost, and how many times they lost

Im not holding his losses against him Im just pointing out that he LOST in the two marquee fights he was in. Ruiz on the other hand fought more top level fighters and actually beat some of them! It doesnt really matter who he lost to, just like it doesnt matter who Klitschko lost to, but the question is who ranks higher all time, and only a fool would say Vitali accomplished anything close to what Ruiz has. Vitalis claim to fame other than the LOSS to Lewis, is fighting Corrie Sanders, a fighter who came out of retirement to knock out his brother, for the vacant WBC title. Now someone is going to tell me that wasn't a prefabricated ranking for a title fight?? Then he scoots out of a mandatory to fight the guy that beat a shot Tyson. Then he avoids Rahman three times, only to come out of retirement to demand his title shot back against Maskaev. Hmmm I wonder if Peter held the title if he would have demanded that fight?? His actions are more fraudelent than Ruiz's holding.

[cross_trainer]

Every fighter has losses to lesser fighters. Yes Ruiz lost a few times. So did Vitali. It's WINS that move you on the ATG list.

Losses should be considered as well, especially if they're glaring like Ruiz's.

And I wouldn't say that Vitali lost to inferior opposition. Both Lewis and Byrd were greater fighters than he was, although it's arguable either way with Byrd.

[Max Molyneux]

Vitali got the ring title because the ring follows the who's the most popular HBO fighter.

[TheGreat]

Vitali got the ring title because the ring follows the who's the most popular HBO fighter.

Exactly the ring belt ain't real it's just the stupid magazine's opinion, since when can you become champ by getting your ass handed to you by the man and The Ring don't mean shit anyway now that ODLH owns it they will probalby rank him #1P4P all time:rofl

[caballo]

:good good post

Sensible, balanced, excellent post.

[caballo]

You realize Klitschko was the WBC and Ring Champion right? So, I would not say he never won a title. :patsch

My bad. I didn't realize he had won a title. I have nothing against V Klitschko. He showed tremendous heart against Lenox Lewis. Who is the tougher fighter is open to debate. Which fighter has the more impressive resume is not. It's John Ruiz.

[Zakman]

Every fighter has losses to lesser fighters. Yes Ruiz lost a few times. So did Vitali. It's WINS that move you on the ATG list.

Yeah, but Ruiz's wins are the result of CHEATING, Lance.

Excessive holding is ILLEGAL according to the basic rules of the sport. Ruiz did this in virtually EVERY fight he had after King manuevered him into contention.:yep

And faking low blows is just DISGRACEFUL. Ruiz didn't do this just ONCE, either - he did it in SEVERAL fights.:fire

And then there's the bogus draw against an ancient Holyfield and that gift decisions against Golota. :roll:

Just because it says "W" on that boxrec record folks doesn't make it legit!!:patsch

[cross_trainer]

Yeah, but Ruiz's wins are the result of CHEATING, Lance.

Excessive holding is ILLEGAL according to the basic rules of the sport. Ruiz did this in virtually EVERY fight he had after King manuevered him into contention.:yep

And faking low blows is just DISGRACEFUL. Ruiz didn't do this just ONCE, either - he did it in SEVERAL fights.:fire

And then there's the bogus draw against an ancient Holyfield and that gift decisions against Golota. :roll:

Just because it says "W" on that boxrec record folks doesn't make it legit!!:patsch

Ruiz isn't a clubfighter, though. When he doesn't clinch, he does well against top 10 guys...just not as well as he does while cheating.

Without his jab n' grab, he would probably be somewhere in the top 10/15. He's a cheating fringe contender. ;)

[jecxbox]

Ruiz easily. Even looking at Ruiz last two losses..Some say that he beat the giant so... Ruiz actually has a very nice resume.

[box03]

Ruiz might one of more boring champs that I could remember, but honestly the guy finds a way to pull out a victory more times than not I will give him that. Every elite fighter cheats in some way look at Ali he held behind the head and also posted which is not allowed, Holyfield head butting, Tyson hitting with his forearm, Lewis leaning on back of the neck and head. I dont like Ruiz at all but the guy deserves some credit for being champ for as long as he was, and fighting some of the best fighters out there as his resume shows.

[joe the great]

That's really a tough one but I am giving the edge to Klitschko.

[Zakman]

Ruiz isn't a clubfighter, though. When he doesn't clinch, he does well against top 10 guys...just not as well as he does while cheating.

Without his jab n' grab, he would probably be somewhere in the top 10/15. He's a cheating fringe contender. ;)

You have a point. Without the cheating, Ruiz would've been a decent gatekeeper type.

Like I said, he's Rob Calloway with connections!:yep

[AJAX]

ruiz has fought better competition and has argueably better wins, But Ruiz does not have 1 clear victory or KO over a top fighter. every single win was a close disputed decision or a DQ. Vitaly made it clear in his fights what the outcome was. In his Victories he punished his foes with fists, not with hugs.

[Lance_Uppercut]

Yeah, but Ruiz's wins are the result of CHEATING, Lance.

Excessive holding is ILLEGAL according to the basic rules of the sport. Ruiz did this in virtually EVERY fight he had after King manuevered him into contention.:yep

And faking low blows is just DISGRACEFUL. Ruiz didn't do this just ONCE, either - he did it in SEVERAL fights.:fire

And then there's the bogus draw against an ancient Holyfield and that gift decisions against Golota. :roll:

Just because it says "W" on that boxrec record folks doesn't make it legit!!:patsch
Zak...Have you notice only YOU call it cheating, no one else does. Who you think REALLY won vs. Ruiz is irrelevent and isn't technically how MOST see it.

[Ambition_Def]

John Ruiz.

Reasons have already been stated.

[PATSYS]

Who will go down as the superior heavyweight?

All I can say is that Ruiz has beaten a great HW in Evander Holyfield.

[ironchamp]

Yeah, but Ruiz's wins are the result of CHEATING, Lance.

Excessive holding is ILLEGAL according to the basic rules of the sport. Ruiz did this in virtually EVERY fight he had after King manuevered him into contention.:yep

And faking low blows is just DISGRACEFUL. Ruiz didn't do this just ONCE, either - he did it in SEVERAL fights.:fire

And then there's the bogus draw against an ancient Holyfield and that gift decisions against Golota. :roll:

Just because it says "W" on that boxrec record folks doesn't make it legit!!:patsch

Dempsey hits on the breaks.
Holyfield Headbutts.
Ali holds behind the head.
Foreman (1st career) pushes fighters around off.
Tyson uses forearms and elbows.
Lewis likes to hold and hit.

Though Ruiz doesnt belong in the above group, he holds excessively.

Not to mention that Wlad is now starting to jab and grab, jab jab grab, hook off the jab and throw his hand...etc

Ruiz may win ugly but he wins, and considering his wins are better than Vitaly's I'd have to say that he should go down as the greater fighter. Though head to head is different.

[A-50]

Dempsey hits on the breaks.
Holyfield Headbutts.
Ali holds behind the head.
Foreman (1st career) pushes fighters around off.
Tyson uses forearms and elbows.
Lewis likes to hold and hit.

Though Ruiz doesnt belong in the above group, he holds excessively.

Not to mention that Wlad is now starting to jab and grab, jab jab grab, hook off the jab and throw his hand...etc

Ruiz may win ugly but he wins, and considering his wins are better than Vitaly's I'd have to say that he should go down as the greater fighter. Though head to head is different.


Ruiz was clinching/grabbing 250 times a fight! How can you compare that cheating fraud Ruiz with any of the fighters you listed? Good lord man, I don't think I can remember 1 Ruiz fight where he was the clear winner. They were mostly controversial or criminal Decisions.

[cross_trainer]

You have a point. Without the cheating, Ruiz would've been a decent gatekeeper type.

Like I said, he's Rob Calloway with connections!:yep

Shannon Briggs with connections. Or Shannon Briggs with more connections, since Briggs clearly has quite a few as well.

DeVarryl Williamson with connections, perhaps?

[Thread Stealer]

62% for Vitali, 38% for Ruiz.

[jopez707]

I'll take Ruiz with wins over Rahman, Oquendo, Holyfield (even dropping the Warrior), Golota, and many would say Valuev. That's better than Corrie Sanders, Larry Donald, Herbie Hide and nearly beating (but retiring on his stool) Chris Byrd.

[Asterion]

Vitali.

Who did he beat that was a ranked contender? Hide, Johnson, Sanders and Williams.

Not so impressive. And we have to remember that in his loses he was very competitive. He had also Champ for a while and was considered the man at HW from 2004 to 2005.

Ruiz did fought much more contender but lost a lot more times. He draw a trilogy against an old Holyfield, was beat by Roy Jones, NC against James Toney and lost against Valuev and Chagaev. He beat Andrew Golota and Hasim Rahman and has a DQ win against Kirk John though. Also lost against guys early in his career.

I think Ruiz fought more contenders, but wasn't so dominant. Vitali gets my vote here.

[rendog67]

i think most boxing fans present and future who know their stuff will rank klitschko higher

[Lunny]

Strangely close poll for 2007.

Good thread. Would read again.

[vargasfan1985]

Ruiz resume is way better than Vitali's. That is not even up for debate.

[Cael]

is this some sort of a sad joke?

[perko]

Vitali by a mile , ruiz goes down as the worst heavyweight champ ever.

[Lunny]

is this some sort of a sad joke?
This was before his comeback.

[Overhill]

they each had two title reigns...compare those for me.

Ruiz has accomplished way more than Vitali ever will.

John Ruiz is still the HW champion in my eyes.

From 2007..

And from 2011:

Ruiz resume is way better than Vitali's. That is not even up for debate.