Middleweight Tournament Round 2: Tiger vs Greb

[GPater11093]

Can the superbly strong Dick Tiger beat the Pittsburgh Windmill or will Greb tame the (Dick) Tiger.

15 rounds

no reason, no vote

[mcvey]

Can the superbly strong Dick Tiger beat the Pittsburgh Windmill or will Greb tame the (Dick) Tiger.

15 rounds

no reason, no vote

Greb wins this on work rate,durabilty,and SPEED.Tiger was a monster 160pounder,but Greb had a top chin and could go allnight he had inhuman stamina,only Armstrong came close.
Greb by dec.

[laxpdx]

Tiger is the man but I've got to give Greb a small edge here. He did everything Richard did and more.

[teeto]

I haven't seen Greb unfortunately (joke).

Fuck knows, i'll just say Greb because his resume is ridiculous.

[CottoDaBodykill]

grebster ... tiger might floor him but greb is gonna beat him it's a mandatory

[teeto]

grebster ... tiger might floor him but greb is gonna beat him it's a mandatory
haha, compulsory.

[he grant]

Teeto ... hilarious !

[Wu-Gambino]

Tiger UD 15 on account of film. How's that for a reason?

[WhataRock]

Ill have to say Greb...I know no one has seen any film of him but judging from the film of the some of the guys he beat, he must have been some fighter.

His very solid body of work at 175 leads me to believe he will be able to just outdo Tiger in the trenches and not allow Dick to have his way with him.

Greb wins it 8-7.

[janitor]

Tiger is a great fighter but there are only a few ways to beat Greb and counterpunching him is not one of them.

He is going to let Greb rack up points before he realises that he simply has to shift his game plan and by then it is probably too late.

[Flea Man]

I say Tiger by decision. Would be a war but I know how good Tiger actually is.

Would be a real battle; Tiger by Wide Decision for doing cleaner work.

[janitor]

Tiger by Wide Decision for doing cleaner work.

Could you imagine anybody winning a "wide" decision over Harry Greb?

[Flea Man]

Could you imagine anybody winning a "wide" decision over Harry Greb?

It's no secret that I don't rate older fighters, especially those I haven't seen fight.

[smitty_son408]

I don't believe Tiger possessed the footwork and generalship to force Greb to slow down his work rate and try to find him with shots. Also, Tiger would be right there within range all night as that was where he loved to operate.

Greb UD.

[OLD FOGEY]

I haven't seen Greb unfortunately (joke).

Fuck knows, i'll just say Greb because his resume is ridiculous.

This basically boils it down. We haven't seen Greb, but off the reports he would probably be too busy and too fast with his hands and feet for Tiger.

[PowerPuncher]

On 1 hand Tiger may have had a better more advanced technical style and was a such a wonderful MW himself. On the other hand we just don't know how Greb actually was because we havent seen him. Greb is supposedly fast and Calzaghe like but I didnt think he looked that quick in training, which might not be reflective of his ability

Impossible to say, Greb shouldnt really be in fantasy matches because of this, so I'll go with Tiger for that reason

[janitor]

It's no secret that I don't rate older fighters, especially those I haven't seen fight.

But you can watch Greb's victims in action.

Can you imagine Dick Tiger beating Gene Tunney for example?

Harry Greb won every single round against Gene Tunney in their first fight. That is how fast he was.

For any middleweight to beat him is a tall order but to beat him on the score cards by a wide margin seems utterly impossible.

It also has to be noted that nearly all Dick Tigers votes are based on the lack of film of Greb. Now that would not amount to a verry strong endorsment against a fighter like Greb if he were to win this poll.

[Bummy Davis]

It looks like Greb would win a UD handily....Looks from his resume that he would be too busy for Tiger

[Flea Man]

But you can watch Greb's victims in action.

Can you imagine Dick Tiger beating Gene Tunney for example?

Harry Greb won every single round against Gene Tunney in their first fight. That is how fast he was.

For any middleweight to beat him is a tall order but to beat him on the score cards by a wide margin seems utterly impossible.

It also has to be noted that nearly all Dick Tigers votes are based on the lack of film of Greb. Now that would not amount to a verry strong endorsment against a fighter like Greb if he were to win this poll.

yep, I don't rate Tunney H2H.

I'm exhausted at how many times I've posted my reasons bud; in short, although innovators, I don't feel their technique stands up today. I feel they would usualyl lose via decision because of theit toughness though.

Hope that explains my standpoint :good

[McGrain]

Great, great, great fight.

Shame they had to meet.

Was reading a bit about Bogash and Greb this week. Bogash seems to have been a fighter that was close to impossible to discourage and his pressure seems to have troubled Greb, who squeeked by on points. Tiger has all of Bogash's heart, vigor, punch resistance and mental strength but additional advantages, size among them, but also clinical, consistantly hard punching and counter punching. I think that Tiger's combination of punching ability and extreme indefatigability, would be absolutley hell for Harry Greb.

On the other hand, Greb is the speedster here and he's capable of out-working Tiger, one of the few. It's true, absolutley true in my mind, that Tiger won't get discouraged (like so many of Greb's foes) but that doesn't mean that Tiger will be able to solve The Windwill...

I think Tiger would start very well. I think Greb would be wanting a look and that Dick would take advantage, perhaps even hurting Harry early in the fight with single left hooks downstairs and maybe out-jabbing the quicker man with his combination of punch resistance and technical excellence...Greb would rally (of course) once he'd had a good look at Dick and starting cutting Tiger up with every punch in the book. I'd see it close to even through ten.

So horrifically i've got to try to split these two in the championship rounds where both could excell. I'm going to go against the grain, and pick Tiger's more conservative style to allow him to eek out a disputed split decision in one of the best fights ever seen.

Tiger SD Greb.

[McGrain]

Tiger is a great fighter but there are only a few ways to beat Greb and counterpunching him is not one of them.

Rugged, pressure counter-punching might get the job done in combination with certain physical assets (mad durability and chin).

Flowers seems to have been content to let Greb lead for stretches of all their fights and holds two wins over the past-prime version. I'll stick my neck out and say that prime Tiger is a razor's edge better than prime Flowers.

Also. Tunney had success counter-punching Greb - augmented by his being able to match Greb in clinches in the later fights due to size/strength, which I think is an advantage Tiger may also hold.

[McGrain]

Tiger by Wide Decision for doing cleaner work.

Negative. About as likely as KO I should say!

[janitor]

yep, I don't rate Tunney H2H.

I'm exhausted at how many times I've posted my reasons bud; in short, although innovators, I don't feel their technique stands up today. I feel they would usualyl lose via decision because of theit toughness though.

Hope that explains my standpoint :good

While a number of posters have argued that Gene Tunney was less technicaly sound than some later fighters they have all been verry short on specific's when asked to identify ther areas in which he is less technicaly advaced.

When I say short on specifics I generaly mean short on any kind of answer.

Now even if Tiger is slightly the better technician than Tunney he would basicaly be a middlewight fighting a small cruiserweight. Tunney had the power to take your head off if you were a middleweight on top of his mobility and technical skills.

I would venture to suggest that perhaps no middleweight in history could have matched Greb's performance against Tunney.

[McGrain]

Tunney is more technically sound than Jones.

no middleweight in history could have matched Greb's performance against Tunney

I feel that way.

[janitor]

[quote=McGrain;4711335]Rugged, pressure counter-punching might get the job done in combination with certain physical assets (mad durability and chin).

Flowers seems to have been content to let Greb lead for stretches of all their fights and holds two wins over the past-prime version. I'll stick my neck out and say that prime Tiger is a razor's edge better than prime Flowers.


To be honest with you I don't think that Tiger is verry like the more flowerry tiger stylisticaly. Flowers was in his own way as much of a stylistic anomoly as Greb himself albeit without the advantage of a superior chin.

It also has to be noted that both of the wind Flowers recorded were controvertial, and that Greb was a good deal past his best. Hell he had arguably seen better days around the time of the first Tunney fight which is held up as his signiture win.

Also. Tunney had success counter-punching Greb - augmented by his being able to match Greb in clinches in the later fights due to size/strength, which I think is an advantage Tiger may also hold.

I think that Tunney started having sucess against Greb when he stopped trying to counterpunch him at range and started going to the body at short range and not giving him room to do his dirty work.

I would also point out that it took Tunney a number of fights and a significant shift in his style to beat Greb convincingly. Perhpas the first fight of a series is the one where Tiger has the least chance.

[McGrain]

To be honest with you I don't think that Tiger is verry like the more flowerry tiger stylisticaly.

I agree with you; but I think a better fighter (debateable) and I also do feel that those fights read like Greb did much of the leading and Flowers retaliated with what i'd broadly describe as counter-punch rushes. Tiger's being more precise may actually help him in conjunction with his heart and chin.

It also has to be noted that both of the wind Flowers recorded were controvertial, and that Greb was a good deal past his best. Hell he had arguably seen better days around the time of the first Tunney fight which is held up as his signiture win.

Yeah, controversial but very close. I don't think of these losses as a stick that can be used to beat Greb, put it that way. I only raised them because it's an example of fights where Greb was countered to close affairs.

Incidently, would you agree that Greb turned the clock back for the second fight? This seems to have been a much better performance.



I think that Tunney started having sucess against Greb when he stopped trying to counterpunch him at range and started going to the body at short range and not giving him room to do his dirty work.

I would also point out that it took Tunney a number of fights and a significant shift in his style to beat Greb convincingly. Perhpas the first fight of a series is the one where Tiger has the least chance.

My read is different for you in the following ways -

1 - Greb volintarily gave up some of the dirty work because he felt it was costing him against Tunney. It certainly became an issue.

2 - Tunny countered to the body at all ranges

[GPater11093]

im not counting lack of footage votes

[Wu-Gambino]

im not counting lack of footage votes
Why? Would you like us to analyze Greb's style and flaws then (which we've never seen)?

[GPater11093]

i'm not counting it as if you havent seen any of him surely you cant pass judgement if you feel Tiger would win because you havent seen any of him.

If you read about Greb you can see his style and weaknesses and strengths, although reading aint as good as watching i admit

[SLAKKA]

If Dick Tigers handler Willis "Jersey" Jones of THE RING MAGAZINE heard anyone mention this paring he would wet his pant laughing!!
Like Dick Tiger could stay with the fukkind dutchman as a frekkkin sparing partner!!!

[janitor]

[quote=McGrain;4711535]I agree with you; but I think a better fighter (debateable) and I also do feel that those fights read like Greb did much of the leading and Flowers retaliated with what i'd broadly describe as counter-punch rushes. Tiger's being more precise may actually help him in conjunction with his heart and chin.

My read is different for you in the following ways -

1 - Greb volintarily gave up some of the dirty work because he felt it was costing him against Tunney. It certainly became an issue.

2 - Tunny countered to the body at all ranges


My reading of the latter Tunney fights was that Tunney's style was based more on leading than countering. That he essentialy employed the plan developed by Tommy Loughran and got in Grebs face not giving him room to set up.

Now if James Douglas wrote the blueprint for beating Mike Tyson then Tommy Loughran wrote the blueprint for beating Harry Greb. My interpretation was that Tunney and later Flowers adopted the "Loughran blueprint" as I would see it.

I would be open to being persuaded otherwise.


Yeah, controversial but very close. I don't think of these losses as a stick that can be used to beat Greb, put it that way. I only raised them because it's an example of fights where Greb was countered to close affairs.

Incidently, would you agree that Greb turned the clock back for the second fight? This seems to have been a much better performance.


Many in the press suggested that Greb was a shaddow of his former self after the first Flowers loos.

Of course such talk often tends to acompany a great fighter loosing his title or suffering a significant loos late in his career (see modern examples).

I think that Greb would definitely have been seen to have turned the clock back after the second fight.

There would not be a third because both Greb and Flowers would die on the operating table soon after.

[McGrain]

My reading of the latter Tunney fights was that Tunney's style was based more on leading than countering.

I think that from the third fight on, that might be true. I also think that Greb was fighting a lot cleaner though, and Tunney was perhaps able to take advantage of the additional time and space Greb provided. It seems that Tunney mixed and matched as appropriate after this, but he was throwing a lot of body shots. It's hard for me to invisage Tunney leading to Greb's body and getting away with it. Certainly, Greb is described in these fights (perhaps the last one aside) as "the aggressor", "swarming". I think the difference that you have put your finger on is that Tunney was very happy to meet Greb face to face and slug it out when Greb was "on". But I don't think that Tunney abandoned his countering strategy entirely.

Many in the press suggested that Greb was a shaddow of his former self after the first Flowers loos.

Of course such talk often tends to acompany a great fighter loosing his title or suffering a significant loos late in his career (see modern examples).

I think making weight hurt him in the first fight. After all, he had two pounds to take off the day before, and ended up taking off four by "drying out". The second fight, I think he got the weight thing right.

Also, Greb looked great against Gans in between the Tiger fights, as you'll know, Gans was a good fighter. Greb himself opined that he wouldn't have lost to Tiger had he been in that sort of shape for the first title fight with Flowers, and he seems to have won that fight in traditional Greb style (strong finish, high work-rate, loads of punches).

There was also less satisfaction at the decision for the second title fight.

Regardless, this was Greb. The wins are still very impressive. It was a past-prime Greb that out classed and outfought Mickey Walker after all!

[mcvey]

[quote]


My reading of the latter Tunney fights was that Tunney's style was based more on leading than countering. That he essentialy employed the plan developed by Tommy Loughran and got in Grebs face not giving him room to set up.

Now if James Douglas wrote the blueprint for beating Mike Tyson then Tommy Loughran wrote the blueprint for beating Harry Greb. My interpretation was that Tunney and later Flowers adopted the "Loughran blueprint" as I would see it.

I would be open to being persuaded otherwise.



Many in the press suggested that Greb was a shaddow of his former self after the first Flowers loos.

Of course such talk often tends to acompany a great fighter loosing his title or suffering a significant loos late in his career (see modern examples).

I think that Greb would definitely have been seen to have turned the clock back after the second fight.

There would not be a third because both Greb and Flowers would die on the operating table soon after.

Tunney stated ,that he copied Loughran's tactic of attempting[I say atempting,because we are discussing Greb], to get off first,principally with short arm jolts to the chest and mid section ,as Greb came in.
Tunney of course had more oomph on his shots[Loughran had bad hands for the latter part of his career].
Greb said to Tunney after their last encounter."your'e to big now,you ruined me inside".

[Mr Butt]

greb wins this close fight by just taking enough rounds on work rate to clinch the decision