Middleweight Tournament Round 2: Fitzsimmons vs Robinson

[GPater11093]

2 of the greatest fighters ever who did alot of work outside of the Middleweight division. who wins?

15 rounds

no reason/ no vote

[McGrain]

Jaysus.

You've got to like Robinson here. On the generalship and on the speed. I think he'd be smart enough to work the angles and keep the distance when neccessary.

Very wide decision that doesn't do anything to capture the sense of danger throughout the fight.

[teeto]

Yeah Robinson to outbox him for me as well.

[janitor]

Which Robinson is Mr Fitzsimmons knocking out on this ocasion?

Mr Smith or Mr Leonard?

[GPater11093]

sorry forgot to specify but theres only one Robinson at MW Janitor


Wlaker Smith Jr

[Boilermaker]

This is an awful, awful fight for Ray Robinson.

Firstly, he is fighting at middleweight where he is not as comfortable as he was at say welterweight.

Looking at his record there are some performances against opposition that is not in the same class as Fitz. Firstly, there is the very controversial split decision win over Marty Sevo. In this fight the crowd apparently bood the result and the referee gave the decision to Ray. However, the other two judges gave it to Ray. One of them apparently had it 9-1! Now, in a close fight, that is a bit of a crooked decision (even without seeing the fight). Either way, he was obviously troubled badly by Servo.

After this, there was the loss to Jake Lamotta. EVen the third fight with Lamotta was a very close affair, where Robinson only won, after being saved by the bell in one of the rounds, at the count of 9, apparently. In 5 fights he never really solved the lamotta problem. He struggled because of his chin and power. Fitz had an awful lot more power than Lamotta and his chin while not as 'marketable' is more proven, in that it takes a heavyweight shot.

Next uo is a draw with Jose Basora. Basora was apparently a counterpuncher. This sounds Familiar. Fitz was a counterpuncher with a lot more power. There are no doubts that Fitz beats this version of Ray that turned up. It wasnt the best ray obviously, but if the best ray doesnt turn up to meed Fitz, he kets knocked out clean.

The draw with Henry Brimm will have to be overlooked, because i know nothing about it or Henry Brimm. I doubt he was in Fitz' class though.

It wasnt until 1951 that Ray won the middleweight title. After some easy middleweight fights (i am not sure if they were exhibitions or just non title fights) he then fought his first test against Randy Turpin. He lost. From this point, rays losses were regular at middleweight and above. He didnt really prove himself as a world class middleweight (to an all time geat level). In fairness though, he usually came back to beat guys like Fulmer, but there is no second chance in this tournament.

Perhaps the most telling factor is Rays performance against the big middleweights and light heavys. It wasnt the best. And rays best at middleweight was as a small middleweight. Before any prediction can be made, we need to be perfectly clear about the middleweight limit and the weigh in procedures. Ray is very possibly going to be fighting a fighter who is fighting at the same weight that he won the world heavyweight championship at, on fight night.

So think about this, those who take the popular Ray Robinson pick, They are saying that a small middleweight (natural welterweight) was at one point in time, good enough to fight and beat the World heavyweight champion. IN fact, Fitz' psi punch rates have been measured as similar to Vladimir Klitchskos. Even if you believe that they were not 100% accurate in those times (unlikely) as they were today, it is quite clear that his power levels were close (not allowing for timing issues which he was so good at). Ray is going to struggle big time with this sort of power.

I am not going to predict just yet, as i dont believe any valid pick can be made until the Middleweight limit and weigh in time is clarified.

[GPater11093]

12 hour weigh in and 160lbs limit

[Boilermaker]

12 hour weigh in and 160lbs limit

Very, very interesting. According to Fitz, he weighed 158 when he KOd Corbett and won the World Heavyweight title.

Ray's approximate record at this weight was roughly 30 wins and 14 losses by my calculations. I would say that less than half of those wins are by KO and of those KOs, most of the fighters are of questionable qualities, although obvioulsly the Lamotta KO is a good one and i would guess that around about this time is probably primeversion of Rays middleweight carreer.

Now looking at Fitz at 160, you can see an awesome record. Admittedly, he did do a lot of work a little over 160, but his career shows that he was more than capable of boiling down and maintaining form. In fact, he could have taken this fight at pretty much any stage of his career. The closest thing he fought to Ray was probably Jim Corbett. Jim had a similar style to Ray, but he was a natural heavyweight (or Cruiserweight in todays weights). There is no doubt that Jim hit a lot harder than ray, and he also probably took a lot better punishment). Not only did Fitz Take Jims best, without discouragement (more than likely at below the 160 level of this fight), but he actually knocked Corbett out. No way any version of Sugar Ray knocks out Jim Corbett.

As for class, there is no doubt that Sugar Ray is a pound for pound all time great who did his best work below middle but was good enough to step up to win a middleweight world title. The Non pareil Jack Dempsey was a similar fighter of similar standard. Fitzsimmons knocked him out.

When i think of this fight, Ray must be a little weary of Fitz power. He would have to box him and try to jab and run and try to sneak a points decision. But if Corbett cant do it, how can Ray, who is much smaller and with far less power. The advantage some say he may have is combination punching. But how does he execute it. Does he try to change his style and outwork Fitz? Maybe attack him and go to for the KO? Something he isnt really accustomed to doing and combination punching or not, at some time, Fitz will catch Ray off balance and will land big time. If he does, it should be over.

I really cant see any possible or sensible way that Ray could hope to win this fight. I suppose if he was to win, it could only be by hitting as hard and often as possible and soaking up some massive punishment or at the least some huge shots, with workrate being the difference. Realistically, i think that Fitz wins by KO and i wouldnt be surprised if it was as early as the 5th round or even earlier. Fitzsimmons KO 5.

[GPater11093]

boilermaker thanks for that good to see a different view point away from the norm.

[PowerPuncher]

SRR, hard fought UD, far better better boxer, faster, isnt getting hit by Fitz best punches, but I'm sure fighting a strong aggressive pressuring puncher won't be easy none the less

[Brian123]

At middleweight? Fitz he was a bull at higher weights and a skilled fighter nonetheless. Give him more credit!

Good article here:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

BOB FITZSIMMONS … "POUND FOR POUND – THE BEST EVER"
By Tracy Callis

[Mr Butt]

i was going to vote for robinson but after reading boilmakers post what he says makes sense so am going to do some more reading and watch robinson some more before posting a vote ,could robinson go the whole 15 without getting hurt and then surviving fitzsimmons attempts to finnish him off if strong heavyweights could not.

[WhataRock]

I agree Butt..My instinct was to side with Robinson for no other reason then..well..its Robinson.

But Boiler makes a very compelling argument.

[Mr Butt]

i never thought i would be doing this but i am going for the bigger man who ko`d heavies to score a come from behind stoppage win ,robinson has the speed and skills obviously to outbox fitzsimmons, but just see him catching robinson with too much power for a natural welterweight not in his prime to take

still not sure at all though but am picking fitzsimmons

[GPater11093]

3-3 Draw so far

so i make the tie break

Wide UD for SRR whos too quick and dosent let Fitz get set for counters

[OLD FOGEY]

I vote Fitz. Boilermaker made the case and I agree with it.

Just to give a reason--Fitz handled bigger men. He seems to have been an outrageously hard-hitting middleweight. Robinson was actually at his best at welter and had an indifferent record in many ways as a middleweight, losing to Turpin, Jones, Fullmer, and Basilio. Contemporaries thought Fitz was the hardest hitting HEAVYWEIGHT of his era. Robinson never fought anyone who punched like that.

Good big man over the good little man.

Frankly, I wonder if Turpin, Jones, Fullmer, or Basilio between them could give Fitz a very tough fight.

[TheGreatA]

If we take the Fitzsimmons who actually fought as a middleweight, stopping Dempsey in the 13th round at 150 pounds and lost by KO to Jim Hall in 4 rounds, then I'd have to say Ray Robinson. I feel that Fitzsimmons did better against fighters who came at him and gave him opportunities to counter than against movers who hit him with combinations.

Of the only good film we have of Fitzsimmons in his prime, Corbett was giving him a lot of trouble with his movement, feinting, jabbing and also the rare combinations that he threw. When Corbett started unloading combinations, Fitzsimmons had to go down and take a knee. Fitzsimmons however was strong and was never discouraged, knowing he had a lot of time against an opponent who was starting to tire.

By the way I'm pretty sure that Robinson had something like 70 fights at middleweight and over, of which he lost 3 (LaMotta, Turpin, Maxim) before he was his 3 year layoff, and 3 more before being 40+ years of age against Jones, Fullmer and Basilio. He had wins over LaMotta, Fullmer, Olson, Turpin, Basilio, Graziano, Villemain, Basora, Abrams, Castellani, Levine, Delannoit, Barnes, etc.

In a 15 round fight, I'd pick Robinson to win by a decision. Fitzsimmons beating much bigger and stronger men is an incredible feat but in my view his style worked better against slower, more crude opponents than smaller, quicker boxers.

[Flea Man]

fitzsimmons too primitive. i think ray would annihilate him, early.

[GPater11093]

fitzsimmons too primitive. i think ray would annihilate him, early.

:nono

[Flea Man]

:nono
compared to robinson he is. a lot of people here are nostalgic for guys that would be in tough man competitions nowadays.

[TheGreatA]

compared to robinson he is. a lot of people here are nostalgic for guys that would be in tough man competitions nowadays.

Fitzsimmons was a product of his time. If you ever read his writings, you'd know that he was a very smart strategist in the ring. Today his style would obviously be different but in his time his style worked to perfection considering the rules and conditions he fought under.

[Mr Butt]

[quote=fleaman;4725453]fitzsimmons too primitive. i think ray would annihilate him, early.[/quote


robinson annihilates him early :patsch


:D

[Flea Man]

Fitzsimmons was a product of his time. If you ever read his writings, you'd know that he was a very smart strategist in the ring. Today his style would obviously be different but in his time his style worked to perfection considering the rules and conditions he fought under.
and i wouldn't dispute just how tough old time fighters. one thing i do take into consideration is how awkward a 'modern fighter' would find someone like fitz. i just don't believe it would outweigh how outgunned he would be against ray, regardless of his much-vaunted power.

[Mr Butt]

i can completely see how robinson could get a decision win here fleaman but wins early that is a bit strong in my humble opinion

[OLD FOGEY]

If we take the Fitzsimmons who actually fought as a middleweight, stopping Dempsey in the 13th round at 150 pounds and lost by KO to Jim Hall in 4 rounds, then I'd have to say Ray Robinson. I feel that Fitzsimmons did better against fighters who came at him and gave him opportunities to counter than against movers who hit him with combinations.

Of the only good film we have of Fitzsimmons in his prime, Corbett was giving him a lot of trouble with his movement, feinting, jabbing and also the rare combinations that he threw. When Corbett started unloading combinations, Fitzsimmons had to go down and take a knee. Fitzsimmons however was strong and was never discouraged, knowing he had a lot of time against an opponent who was starting to tire.

By the way I'm pretty sure that Robinson had something like 70 fights at middleweight and over, of which he lost 3 (LaMotta, Turpin, Maxim) before he was his 3 year layoff, and 3 more before being 40+ years of age against Jones, Fullmer and Basilio. He had wins over LaMotta, Fullmer, Olson, Turpin, Basilio, Graziano, Villemain, Basora, Abrams, Castellani, Levine, Delannoit, Barnes, etc.

In a 15 round fight, I'd pick Robinson to win by a decision. Fitzsimmons beating much bigger and stronger men is an incredible feat but in my view his style worked better against slower, more crude opponents than smaller, quicker boxers.

1. Corbett--Corbett was 2 to 3 inches taller than Robinson and from 25 to 30 lbs heavier. He punched hard enough to ko Sullivan. Certainly Robinson was quicker, but I think Corbett got about the ring faster simply due to a much longer stride. Note how Maxim easily closed the gap on Robinson in their fight. Fighting tall men who are quick on their feet is a bit different from fighting short plodders like Basilio. Anyway, Fitz ended up catching Corbett and putting him down for the count. I think Robinson faces the same fate.

2. Jim Hall--There are plenty of rumours of the 1890 fight being a fix, but ignoring that, Hall was a big middleweight and possibly more of a modern supermiddleweight at 6' 1". The weight limits of divisions were dodgy in those days. Certainly Fitz creamed Hall in the rematch. This could be a good argument for Robinson, but Fitz did not lose honestly in a fight from the Hall fight in 1890 to the O'Brien fight in 1905, except for the two ko's by the massive Jeffries.

3. None of that long list of middleweight victims contains anyone that I think is a likely winner over Fitz, and Robinson lost 18 times to middleweights, not including dodgy decisions such as the Abrams fight. I remember an American TV program back in the seventies in which Robinson was a guest. When asked who hit him hardest, he said Artie Levine. No offense to Artie, but Fitz is in a whole different league. I remember Jake LaMotta on a TV program about the same time with Robinson sitting beside him saying Robinson was not in the same class as a puncher with Bob Satterfield or Danny Nardico. Size does matter and Fitz is not only bigger but a hellacious puncher for his size.

4. I don't think there is much evidence that small guys gave Fitz trouble once he hit his stride. After all, he held the middleweight title six years and never lost it, moving up to the higher weights.

[Sweet Pea]

Looking at his record there are some performances against opposition that is not in the same class as Fitz. Firstly, there is the very controversial split decision win over Marty Sevo. In this fight the crowd apparently bood the result and the referee gave the decision to Ray. However, the other two judges gave it to Ray. One of them apparently had it 9-1! Now, in a close fight, that is a bit of a crooked decision (even without seeing the fight). Either way, he was obviously troubled badly by Servo.This is irrelevant in every way, shape, and form.

After this, there was the loss to Jake Lamotta. EVen the third fight with Lamotta was a very close affair, where Robinson only won, after being saved by the bell in one of the rounds, at the count of 9, apparently. In 5 fights he never really solved the lamotta problem.They fought 6 times, most of them taking place with Robinson weighing in over 10 pounds less than LaMotta. I'd say going 5-1 against a fighter and finally stopping him in your last bout together constitutes as figuring him out. :good

He struggled because of his chin and power. Fitz had an awful lot more power than Lamotta and his chin while not as 'marketable' is more proven, in that it takes a heavyweight shot.Again, it was the Welterweight Robinson that struggled with this, and it wasn't so much his punching power as it was his natural mass and strength advantage. Things Fitz didn't really have at WW, being a lanky man himself.

I'd say more but I'm trying to leave era by era debates out of this. This isn't really a serious matchup for me as I believe Robinson would win easily, just as most top modern fighters would. But for the sake of argument....

Next uo is a draw with Jose Basora. Basora was apparently a counterpuncher.Not really. Basora was a pressure cooker with a high workrate who utilized a two fisted attack of straight punches and a tight defense. If he was a counter-puncher, it was probably in the way someone like Qawi was, though they weren't too similar stylistically.


This sounds Familiar. Fitz was a counterpuncher with a lot more power. There are no doubts that Fitz beats this version of Ray that turned up. It wasnt the best ray obviously, but if the best ray doesnt turn up to meed Fitz, he kets knocked out clean.
That can be argued. I would argue that any version of Fitz that's been captured on film gets knocked out clean by Robinson after a one-sided pasting.

It wasnt until 1951 that Ray won the middleweight title. After some easy middleweight fights (i am not sure if they were exhibitions or just non title fights) he then fought his first test against Randy Turpin. He lost. From this point, rays losses were regular at middleweight and above. He didnt really prove himself as a world class middleweight (to an all time geat level). In fairness though, he usually came back to beat guys like Fulmer, but there is no second chance in this tournament.He won the MW title 5 times in one of the deepest MW eras of all time. I think that cinstitutes as proving yourself. What did Fitz accomplish at MW, exactly?

So think about this, those who take the popular Ray Robinson pick, They are saying that a small middleweight (natural welterweight) was at one point in time, good enough to fight and beat the World heavyweight champion.I am saying this man...

QcNedh3Rkuw


would've beaten this man, regardless of the small size difference....


37OcLWu1T_E

IN fact, Fitz' psi punch rates have been measured as similar to Vladimir Klitchskos. Even if you believe that they were not 100% accurate in those timesCount me in that group.

[McGrain]

They fought 6 times, most of them taking place with Robinson weighing in over 10 pounds less than LaMotta. I'd say going 5-1 against a fighter and finally stopping him in your last bout together constitues as figuring him out.

Additionally, there may be no MW that has ever lived that would have gone 6-0 with LaMotta, who is inarguably one of the top 18 MW's of all time and probably a lot higher.

[Flea Man]

Additionally, there may be no MW that has ever lived that would have gone 6-0 with LaMotta, who is inarguably one of the top 18 MW's of all time and probably a lot higher.
agreed. the recent concensous is that lamotta could beat hopkins. going 5-1 with someone as good as lamotta is some achievement.

[Rock0052]

I prefer Fitzsimmons in this matchup because I see it being a case of a great smaller man facing a great larger one. Robinson, while still a damned good middleweight, was reaching the top end of his greatness at that weight. Fitz was just getting started and went on to accomplish things in the classes Ray couldn't due to his size limitations.

As such, I like Fitz in this one- potentially by late stoppage.

[Boilermaker]

This is irrelevant in every way, shape, and form.
Well, if you cant beat Marty Servo, on that particular night, then i am guessing that this particular version of Ray is not going to beat Fitz. Limited weight though i Agree as this version isnt turning up to fight Fitz.


They fought 6 times, most of them taking place with Robinson weighing in over 10 pounds less than LaMotta. I'd say going 5-1 against a fighter and finally stopping him in your last bout together constitutes as figuring him out. :good

How much less than Fitzsimmons on fight night is Robinson going to weigh? Robinson doesnt get fight fights in this tournament to finally figure Fitz out, which he may do eventually.



Again, it was the Welterweight Robinson that struggled with this, and it wasn't so much his punching power as it was his natural mass and strength advantage. Things Fitz didn't really have at WW, being a lanky man himself.

You are kidding me. I will agree that many heavyweights in history had more mass than Fitz, particularly modern ones. But, Fitz is no more "Lanky" by middleweight standards than guys like Hearns and Monzon. All have a massive mass and strength advantage over the smaller Ray Leonard (who i am not trying to overly criticise by the way). This cannot possibly be a serious comment.


I'd say more but I'm trying to leave era by era debates out of this. This isn't really a serious matchup for me as I believe Robinson would win easily, just as most top modern fighters would. But for the sake of argument....

Well the modern argument is your only real argument for Sugar Ray Fans (although i guess the dance and run decision is also arguable). For the sake of this tournament match, let us not forget that Fitz has already beaten a modern fighter in round one of this tournament. And he did it comprehensively. YOu can get no more proof of that in this tournament and it is now impossible to say that Fitz' style cannot beat modern fighters, because he aready has beaten one, easily. Incidentally, while we are on this subject, who did Ray beat in round one of this tournament. Did that fighter take enough out of Ray to slow him down enough for Fitz to catch him?


Not really. Basora was a pressure cooker with a high workrate who utilized a two fisted attack of straight punches and a tight defense. If he was a counter-puncher, it was probably in the way someone like Qawi was, though they weren't too similar stylistically.

I will have to take your word, i read somewhere that Basora was a counterpuncher. WE know that Fitz definitely was. We also know that Fitz was also a two fisted fighter, and he could also hit with straight punches and had a tight defence.

[/quote]
That can be argued. I would argue that any version of Fitz that's been captured on film gets knocked out clean by Robinson after a one-sided pasting.
You cant really see any version of Fitz properly due to poor film quality, missing frames etc. And really, it is forgotten that Fitz was the HEAVYWEIGHT Champion of the world, fighting at a middleweight limit, and a big punching one at that. Something noone else has ever done. As good as Ray is, it is quite clear that if Tyson, Dempsey, Jeffries , Baer or the other big hitters land clean on Ray the fight is over. Fitz is in or near that class as a hitter. Actually if lower level hitters like Briggs, Shulz, Carnera, Schmelling etc land on Ray, they probably win the fight. Even if Fitz was pittiful and outclassed in style, he woudl still have a punchers chance. Sugar doesnt have the power to worry Fitz (that is surely agreed), so if Fitz wanted to take a few (just like Tyson or louis or anyone else) to land a big one, he could easily afford to.

[quote]

He won the MW title 5 times in one of the deepest MW eras of all time. I think that cinstitutes as proving yourself. What did Fitz accomplish at MW, exactly?

Well he won the title in 1891 and held it until 1895 when he vacated the title. This makes him one of the longest reigning middleweight champions ever. He only relinquished the title because he became the world heavyweight champion, which he actually did at the middleweight limit (according to Fitz himself) Something which was never done and which was and still is unheard of. To win 5 times you have to lose 4 times. I dont know who the 4 fighters that could beat middleweight Fitzsimmons ever lived but if they did, they sure didnt come from the same era. Let us not forget also, that after Fitz' retirement to become the heavyweight champion, no middleweight chaampion emerged until 1898 so technically this would have made fitz reign as long as Hagler and Monzons and the longest ever. He was probably the best middleweight in the world for much longer, as he could have always made the weight and even when way past his prime, he was still beating light heavyweight all time greats like Philladelphi Jack Obrien. His accomplishments at middleweight more than hold their own against Rays, i am afraid.

[Boilermaker]

Count me in that group.

I only just saw this comment about PSI measurements. So you dont like the measuring methods. I can accept the concerns, but surely they cannot be so far out as to be totally wrong. They must have been close at least (they did still have mathematical formulas and other things at this time, you know).

But i guess perhaps more importantly and more interestingly, let us assume that they were correct and Fitz hit pretty much as hard as Klitchsko and others. Does this change your opinion of the fight and do you think that Ray could take the full heavyweights punch? I am not so sure but how about you?

[GPater11093]

compared to robinson he is. a lot of people here are nostalgic for guys that would be in tough man competitions nowadays.

and i wouldn't dispute just how tough old time fighters. one thing i do take into consideration is how awkward a 'modern fighter' would find someone like fitz. i just don't believe it would outweigh how outgunned he would be against ray, regardless of his much-vaunted power.


I have recenly been studying Fitzsimmons and i dont think hes a million miles away from the modern ruleset i think hed apadt quite well.

He had good defensive head movement and feet movement that always left him in a place to counter. He was a counter puncher with a huge punch it translates well in any era/ruleset.

He was also a very clever strategist which can only bode well.

Anyway i think SRR beats him as he has the speed to get in and out and not letting Fitz get set for the counters, the point about Maxim shut the distance is irrelevant as Fitz liked an opponent who came to him and then countered although he was more aggresive as a MW i dont think hed be as good coming forward due to his style. I think Fitz would have sucess but i think hed run out of time in a 15 rounder for SRR to win a fairly wide UD.
#

[OLD FOGEY]

I have recenly been studying Fitzsimmons and i dont think hes a million miles away from the modern ruleset i think hed apadt quite well.

He had good defensive head movement and feet movement that always left him in a place to counter. He was a counter puncher with a huge punch it translates well in any era/ruleset.

He was also a very clever strategist which can only bode well.

Anyway i think SRR beats him as he has the speed to get in and out and not letting Fitz get set for the counters, the point about Maxim shut the distance is irrelevant as Fitz liked an opponent who came to him and then countered although he was more aggresive as a MW i dont think hed be as good coming forward due to his style. I think Fitz would have sucess but i think hed run out of time in a 15 rounder for SRR to win a fairly wide UD.
#

What we do have of Fitz on film shows him carrying the fight to a Corbett who is much bigger than Robinson but tried to fight Fitz in a similar way, and ended up getting knocked out.

We don't have the Fitz-Ruhlin fight, but off the Jeffries film with Ruhlin, Gus was another tall man who tried to fight on the outside. He also got knocked out.

There is no more evidence that Fitz could only fight as a counterpuncher than there is that he had touble with smaller men. It is all just speculation. Fitz really didn't have that much trouble with anyone except the giant Jeffries while in his prime.

Truthfully, the only guy who really defeated Fitz from 1890 to 1905 was Jeffries, who was an undefeated heavyweight champion who weighed something like 210 to 220 lbs.

Robinson didn't beat anybody at all like any of these men. I don't think he managed a clean-cut win over even a fair lightheavyweight.

I agree that the major argument for Robinson in this matchup is the unstated one that modern fighters will beat old-timers regardless. I am just not so certain of that in this case.

[GPater11093]

What we do have of Fitz on film shows him carrying the fight to a Corbett who is much bigger than Robinson but tried to fight Fitz in a similar way, and ended up getting knocked out.

We don't have the Fitz-Ruhlin fight, but off the Jeffries film with Ruhlin, Gus was another tall man who tried to fight on the outside. He also got knocked out.

There is no more evidence that Fitz could only fight as a counterpuncher than there is that he had touble with smaller men. It is all just speculation. Fitz really didn't have that much trouble with anyone except the giant Jeffries while in his prime.

Truthfully, the only guy who really defeated Fitz from 1890 to 1905 was Jeffries, who was an undefeated heavyweight champion who weighed something like 210 to 220 lbs.

Robinson didn't beat anybody at all like any of these men. I don't think he managed a clean-cut win over even a fair lightheavyweight.

I agree that the only really good argument for Robinson in this matchup is the unstated one that modern fighters will beat old-timers regardless. I am just not so certain of that in this case.

Fitz KOd Corbett after getting out boxed aand it was late on in the fight way after round 15

[OLD FOGEY]

Fitz KOd Corbett after getting out boxed aand it was late on in the fight way after round 15

Fitzsimmons ko'd Corbett in the 14th round.

The same as the round in which Robinson did not answer the bell against the powder-puff punching Maxim.

[GPater11093]

Fitzsimmons ko'd Corbett in the 14th round.

what the fuck was i thinking your right

i still think SRR is better than Corbett and faster and could get it to 15 rounds

[Boilermaker]

Fitz KOd Corbett after getting out boxed aand it was late on in the fight way after round 15

No, it was in the 14th round that he KOd corbett, inside the 15 round distance.

Also, it isnt true to say that he was outboxed, as he won the last few rounds before the stoppage. Further, my understanding of the rules of the day (and scoring) was that if a fighter lost the first rounds but finished well on top in the last rounds, this was seen as more important and they could get the decision based on this in some circumstances (i could be corrected from some posters on this, but i think it is right in some circumstances). Fitz new the rules and he elected to take some punches to change Jim's style and create openings. Would Sugar Ray be baited into going for a KO and underestimating Fitz' power also? And dont forget that Corbett surely had a better chin than Sugar Ray.

[OLD FOGEY]

what the fuck was i thinking your right

i still think SRR is better than Corbett and faster and could get it to 15 rounds


If Robinson were as big as Corbett, he wins easy. But he was really a natural welterweight who grew into a smallish middle. Corbett was 6' 1" or perhaps a trifle taller, and 183 lbs. That is about a 25 pound weight pull, and the film shows that Corbett was plenty fast on his feet. He didn't throw combinations like Robinson, but I think hit harder punch for punch and was obviously physically stronger, and yet Fitz pushes him around on the film.

Do you think Robinson beats Corbett? I don't, but Fitz had the physical power and the punch to do it. Size matters and Fitz was a really freakily strong man at 160, and both off his record and the testimony of everyone who watched him, one of the all-time freaky punchers, if not the absolute freakiest.

[Boilermaker]

what the fuck was i thinking your right

i still think SRR is better than Corbett and faster and could get it to 15 rounds

One more thing, it isnt a given that Sugar Ray was faster than Corbett (though he probably was). Corbett was one of the fastest ever. Although he heavier, he may have still been faster. One of the old documentaries does a frame by frame comparing the jabs of Ali and Robinson. Ali was the faster, apparently. Corbett was the Ali of his time and he was cnsidered the fastest fighter ever at his time (on my understanding at least) i think that Robinson was probably faster but there probably wouldnt be as much in it as you think. Certainly, Corbett was an awful lot quicker than todays heavyweights who are considered speedsters. Fitz could deal with the speed, and i doubt that Robinson could tie Fitz up in the clinch and do damage in close like corbett could.

[Rock0052]

Also, let us not forget that Robinson has never fought a fighter with the punching power Fitzsimmons possesses. Though his chin held up fine vs his competition, it's important to remember that Fitzsimmons' 1 punch power is significantly above and beyond what the Sugar Man's been hit with.

[dpw417]

Alot of these hypotheticals are like comparing apples and oranges...A match-up between two fighters of such contrasting eras as Robinson and Fitz is even more so.

Boilermaker and OF have made somewhat convincing arguements by stating that Fitz would carry far too much power for Robinson to contend with because Fitz was able to stand in with, and legitimately KO much larger men. This is a viable point in as much that Robinson wouldn't be able to duplicate the same feats. Bottom line when Fitz is able to set and deliver he is lethal. Is he capable of KOing Robinson? Anyone at 160 lbs? Yes and yes...But would he?... I don't think so...

There is a major difference in hitting a dynamic target moving away from you, which
Robinson would be, as compared to the more static (heavier and slower) targets Fitz enjoyed his success against.

I've enjoyed reading up more on Fitz, and it is apparent that he is a cunning strategist in the ring. The details of his fights with Ruhlin and Sharkey tell of give and take battles with liberal amounts of punishment given and taken...Could Robinson hang with the heavies? Nope...But this is a middleweight fight, not a heavyweight fight. Fitz is the bigger, stronger, and harder hitting fighter. But if you were to go by that logic, WHY did Dempsey last into the thrirteenth round after being dominated from the very start of their fight, and Fitz knocking Dempsey down seven times in the eleventh round!!! Why is it that Fitz wasn't able to get Dempsey out of ther sooner following such a devastating performance? No doubt Dempsey was a great fighter during the time.. but was he more durable than Sharkey? Perhaps power does not translate quite the same when fighting different targets(?)

The arguement that Robinson and Corbett are similar stylistically? Personally, I do not see the similaritites.

As stated before, I believe when Fitz is set to deliver, he is a devastating hitter. His style is linear, and he is conditioned to explode forward into his power punches. But how does that power translate to a moving target or a target who is not even in position for him to hit?

During the Fitzsimmon's shift, Fitz would lead with a straight right or right hook, either hitting or knocking down the defense of the opponent, Fitz's right foot quickly then goes to the outside of the opponent's left foot, and Fitz shifts his entire bodyweight and unloads a brutal punch to the body and often follows up with the same left to the head (if necessary). Fitzsimmons entire style is predicated on setting and delivering. A very grounded style.

In order to win, Robinson would have to gauge distance and be wary of Fitz's right hand and the possible shift...The right hand of Fitz is the tell tale sign to either back out, or move to the left (Robinson's left) away from the shift. Once avoiding the shift, Robinson could possibly score his combinations then get out, while Fitz would have to reset. By moving towards the left, Robinson will likely nullify Fitz's shifts and force him to box with him.

Robinson's mobility and his positioning are the keys to a decision win.

A vote for Robinson.

[OLD FOGEY]

dpw417---You make a good case. Where I would disagree with you is in assuming Robinson could keep this going for 15 rounds. I think Fitz scores to the body and saps Robinson's strength and speed, as he did those of the much larger Corbett. I see Fitz eventually scoring a ko.

[Sweet Pea]

How much less than Fitzsimmons on fight night is Robinson going to weigh? Robinson doesnt get fight fights in this tournament to finally figure Fitz out, which he may do eventually.He won't be weighing much less, if at all. This is a MW matchup.

You are kidding me. I will agree that many heavyweights in history had more mass than Fitz, particularly modern ones. But, Fitz is no more "Lanky" by middleweight standards than guys like Hearns and Monzon.Hearns was very lanky, Monzon was heavier but also of the same general build. Both are lanky, Fitz was in the same boat as them, therefore Fitz is lanky.

All have a massive mass and strength advantage over the smaller Ray Leonard (who i am not trying to overly criticise by the way). This cannot possibly be a serious comment.I'm struggling to find if this is a serious comment. That's probably the first time I've ever heard anyone out Hearns's strength in such high regard. A massive size and strength advantage over Leonard? I think you meant Robinson, either way you're way off base.

Well the modern argument is your only real argument for Sugar Ray Fans (although i guess the dance and run decision is also arguable). For the sake of this tournament match, let us not forget that Fitz has already beaten a modern fighter in round one of this tournament. And he did it comprehensively. YOu can get no more proof of that in this tournament and it is now impossible to say that Fitz' style cannot beat modern fighters, because he aready has beaten one, easily.:lol:If that's the way you want to look at it. I don't see things that way, I'm simply looking at the matchup in realistic terms. I wouldn't have even responded to this thread if not for your post.


Incidentally, while we are on this subject, who did Ray beat in round one of this tournament. Did that fighter take enough out of Ray to slow him down enough for Fitz to catch him?
C'mon now.

I will have to take your word, i read somewhere that Basora was a counterpuncher. WE know that Fitz definitely was. We also know that Fitz was also a two fisted fighter, and he could also hit with straight punches and had a tight defence.His defense looked anything but tight, and his punches anything but straight in the footage I've viewed.

You cant really see any version of Fitz properly due to poor film quality, missing frames etc.Poor film quality just lessens the viewing experience. It doesn't give the fighter poor form and technique, which is what Fitz shows in all of the footage available, along with pretty much every other fighter of the era.

And really, it is forgotten that Fitz was the HEAVYWEIGHT Champion of the world, fighting at a middleweight limit, and a big punching one at that. Something noone else has ever done. As good as Ray is, it is quite clear that if Tyson, Dempsey, Jeffries , Baer or the other big hitters land clean on Ray the fight is over. Fitz is in or near that class as a hitter. I'm not sure if he was in the Jeffries class as a hitter, but I can guarantee you if Fitz were to take on any of the men you just mentioned he'd have been out as quickly as Ray. I do not buy for one second that his punching power is on that level. The Heavyweights that he took on were neither as big nor as advanced as any of the ones listed barring Jeffries.


Actually if lower level hitters like Briggs, Shulz, Carnera, Schmelling etc land on Ray, they probably win the fight. Even if Fitz was pittiful and outclassed in style, he woudl still have a punchers chance. Sugar doesnt have the power to worry Fitz (that is surely agreed), so if Fitz wanted to take a few (just like Tyson or louis or anyone else) to land a big one, he could easily afford to.
Who the hell signed the terms to that agreement? Robinson has the power to worry anyone that has ever fought at the weight. He also clearly had the durability and skill-set needed to hang with any MW, regardless of their strength or power. I believe a first rate composite puncher like Robinson is far more dangerous than a sluggish, un-skilled mauler like the fighters Fitz was taking on.

Well he won the title in 1891 and held it until 1895 when he vacated the title. This makes him one of the longest reigning middleweight champions ever.And who did he beat during that period?

He only relinquished the title because he became the world heavyweight champion, which he actually did at the middleweight limit (according to Fitz himself) Something which was never done and which was and still is unheard of. Different eras breed different results. I can guarantee you 100% that he wouldn't have been doing anything of the sort in Ray's era.

To win 5 times you have to lose 4 times. I dont know who the 4 fighters that could beat middleweight Fitzsimmons ever lived but if they did, they sure didnt come from the same era.Hell, I'd favor all the ones that beat Robinson if we're being straight up.

Let us not forget also, that after Fitz' retirement to become the heavyweight champion, no middleweight chaampion emerged until 1898 so technically this would have made fitz reign as long as Hagler and Monzons and the longest ever. Again, he was not facing anywhere near the same level of opposition as these guys at MW. His claim to fame at the weight was his win over a smaller, already fading Nonpareil Jack Dempsey. Otherwise, his only other top win at the weight was over Don Creedon.


He was probably the best middleweight in the world for much longer, as he could have always made the weight and even when way past his prime, he was still beating light heavyweight all time greats like Philladelphi Jack Obrien. His accomplishments at middleweight more than hold their own against Rays, i am afraid.
Not really, at all. Having a long reign where you hardly face any MW's or name fighters (or fight that often in general) doesn't count for shit in my book.

[SuzieQ49]

Does anyone serious think Sugar Ray Robinson would ever lose to a man in a thong?




[Only registered and activated users can see links]





[Only registered and activated users can see links]

On a more serious note imagine what will happen to the right side of Fitzsimons face when he tries to do this to avoid a Robinson Left hook.

[dpw417]

dpw417---You make a good case. Where I would disagree with you is in assuming Robinson could keep this going for 15 rounds. I think Fitz scores to the body and saps Robinson's strength and speed, as he did those of the much larger Corbett. I see Fitz eventually scoring a ko.
I calls em' the ways I sees em'...You calls em' the ways you sees em'...Cheers Fogey.

[mcvey]

Very, very interesting. According to Fitz, he weighed 158 when he KOd Corbett and won the World Heavyweight title.

Ray's approximate record at this weight was roughly 30 wins and 14 losses by my calculations. I would say that less than half of those wins are by KO and of those KOs, most of the fighters are of questionable qualities, although obvioulsly the Lamotta KO is a good one and i would guess that around about this time is probably primeversion of Rays middleweight carreer.

Now looking at Fitz at 160, you can see an awesome record. Admittedly, he did do a lot of work a little over 160, but his career shows that he was more than capable of boiling down and maintaining form. In fact, he could have taken this fight at pretty much any stage of his career. The closest thing Jim had a similar style to he fought to Ray was probably Jim Corbett. yRa, but he was a natural heavyweight (or Cruiserweight in todays weights). There is no doubt that Jim hit a lot harder than ray, and he also probably took a lot better punishment). Not only did Fitz Take Jims best, without discouragement (more than likely at below the 160 level of this fight), but he actually knocked Corbett out. No way any version of Sugar Ray knocks out Jim Corbett.

As for class, there is no doubt that Sugar Ray is a pound for pound all time great who did his best work below middle but was good enough to step up to win a middleweight world title. The Non pareil Jack Dempsey was a similar fighter of similar standard. Fitzsimmons knocked him out.

When i think of this fight, Ray must be a little weary of Fitz power. He would have to box him and try to jab and run and try to sneak a points decision. But if Corbett cant do it, how can Ray, who is much smaller and with far less power. The advantage some say he may have is combination punching. But how does he execute it. Does he try to change his style and outwork Fitz? Maybe attack him and go to for the KO? Something he isnt really accustomed to doing and combination punching or not, at some time, Fitz will catch Ray off balance and will land big time. If he does, it should be over.

I really cant see any possible or sensible way that Ray could hope to win this fight. I suppose if he was to win, it could only be by hitting as hard and often as possible and soaking up some massive punishment or at the least some huge shots, with workrate being the difference. Realistically, i think that Fitz wins by KO and i wouldnt be surprised if it was as early as the 5th round or even earlier. Fitzsimmons KO 5.

I have no problem with anyone picking Fitz here,but,
Fitz was bothered by Corbett's punches,in fact he was dropped by them and clung on to save himself.
I dont think Corbett fought like Robinson
.Servo retired rather than defend against Robinson ,who was his standout challenger.
Lamotta ,when he floored Robinson was a full fledged Middle 1601/2 to Ray's144 1/2..
Dempsey was a great fighter of his time but essentially a prize ring guy,most of his opponents are nonentities,and no one above ground has seen him fight,how do we know he was like Robinson?
You mentioned Robinson's chin,it was excellent only stopped once with heat exhaustion.
Fitz has the edge in power,bur Ray was a terrific puncher too,and he has the edge in everything else,imo,speed versatility,combinations.

Corbett had much more power than Ray and a far better chin? Very debatable.
Corbett was kod by a body shot,I think Ray's punch resistance stacks up vey well against him.

I dont see how you can dismiss SRR so easily.

[Mendoza]

Hard match to call. Here's the thing, Robinson fought to take the other guy out, which meant he left himself open to get hit. Robinson's best stuff was a welter, not middle.

Fitz was naturally bigger and stronger. If Robinson fights the way he does on film, I think he loses via TKO in one heck of a war.

[Boilermaker]

He won't be weighing much less, if at all. This is a MW matchup.

What was Rays best weight? He was in his prime as a welterweight. He generally chose to fight most middleweights such as Lamotta at quite a bit below the middleweight limit. This could very easily see Ray Robinson fighting around 147 on fight night, with Fitzsimmons right on 160 or even more on fight night



Hearns was very lanky, Monzon was heavier but also of the same general build. Both are lanky, Fitz was in the same boat as them, therefore Fitz is lanky.

Fair enough, but it doesnt mean anything with regards to their punching power. You would agree that both were pretty good in this department?



I'm struggling to find if this is a serious comment. That's probably the first time I've ever heard anyone out Hearns's strength in such high regard. A massive size and strength advantage over Leonard? I think you meant Robinson, either way you're way off base.

Interesting. To be honest i have never considered Ray Robinson to be anywhere near as strong as Tommy Hearns at middleweight though maybe i should rewatch some Tommy at middleweight. Maybe i have confused his punching ability with all out power, but i thought he scored okay on this front (and yes i meant Robinson not leonard).


:lol:If that's the way you want to look at it. I don't see things that way, I'm simply looking at the matchup in realistic terms. I wouldn't have even responded to this thread if not for your post.

C'mon now.


:lol:okay, i am clutching at straws a bit here, but this is a tournament thread and not a thread in isolation, so theoretically the first round matches results should be considered. A tough first round match should also in theory make it harder to produce a second good performance in a row.


His defense looked anything but tight, and his punches anything but straight in the footage I've viewed.

I disagree with this. Fitz does a lot of hooking and upper cutting, but his Jab is straight and hard and right hand is also straight. He doesnt wing punches like say a Foreman. Technically his punching is as good as anyones, and i think this is born out with his KO record. i dont even think it is debateable.

His defence is a little different. It is a touch unorthodox and probably resembles Muhammed Ali, more than Say Joe Louis, but it is still a tight defence. Fitz seems to know to get his hands up when in trouble, and most importantly to clinch when hurt or hit.

In fact, the clinch is going to cause Sugar Ray massive problems. He will have major problems firing off combinations, when Fitz clinches every time he is hit (as was the norm in his day). This upsets Sugars Rhythmn, massively and it something which Ray may not have experienced all that much of.


Poor film quality just lessens the viewing experience. It doesn't give the fighter poor form and technique, which is what Fitz shows in all of the footage available, along with pretty much every other fighter of the era.

Yet magically, they got better as footage got better?

I have to be honest though, i struggle to see very much at all in the films. I dont think technique is anywhere near as poor as you make out, but maybe you just have younger eyes?


I'm not sure if he was in the Jeffries class as a hitter, but I can guarantee you if Fitz were to take on any of the men you just mentioned he'd have been out as quickly as Ray. I do not buy for one second that his punching power is on that level. The Heavyweights that he took on were neither as big nor as advanced as any of the ones listed barring Jeffries.

What difference does the size of the heavyweights have to do with his PSI rating of his punches? That is not really disputable. He hit roughly as hard as the guys i mentioned. (I think it is Janitor that has a list of the real measurements). You dont buy that his punching power is on the same level, but the cold hard facts say that it was. whether he beats those fighters or not is irrelevant, it is undisputed that he hit this hard.

I note that you think that Ray gets blown out by these guys also. So i ask you this question. You have suggested Fitz' shortcomings in technique and other areas. But if he legitimately hits as hard as these heavys, do you change your prediction on this fight and say he knocks out Ray, or do you think that Ray can still dance his way to victory. (And dont forget, it would seem difficult to stick with Ray in these circumstances without trying to suggest that Ray may very well have the chin to mention those heavyweights i mentioned).



Who the hell signed the terms to that agreement? Robinson has the power to worry anyone that has ever fought at the weight. He also clearly had the durability and skill-set needed to hang with any MW, regardless of their strength or power. I believe a first rate composite puncher like Robinson is far more dangerous than a sluggish, un-skilled mauler like the fighters Fitz was taking on.

If he had the power, why was his KO record against good middleweights so ordinary?



And who did he beat during that period?

Well the Non pareil Jack Dempsey was a living legend of the sport. The Black Pearl Harris Martin was a colloured Champion, Peter Maher was actually a legitimate World Heavyweight Contender. In 1892, he fought about 10 or so contenders, and none of them made it out of the third round. In 1893 he knocked out the very tough Jim Hall, who had beaten him earlier in his career and KOd him in 4. He also KOd several other fighters in less than 4 rounds.

Actually, now that i look at it, after Fitz won the world title, no middleweight lasted more than 4 rounds with Fitz.


Different eras breed different results. I can guarantee you 100% that he wouldn't have been doing anything of the sort in Ray's era.

You dont think he could have beat the former light heavyweight Ezzard Charles? Fitz record at light heavy stands up to charles to, you know. Or what about just slightly before Sugars time. Do you think he could have beaten the Cinderella Man? His record isnt in the same league as as Fitz. If different eras breed different results, why hasnt anyone else ever done what Fitz did?


Hell, I'd favor all the ones that beat Robinson if we're being straight up.

:lol:

Again, he was not facing anywhere near the same level of opposition as these guys at MW. His claim to fame at the weight was his win over a smaller, already fading Nonpareil Jack Dempsey. Otherwise, his only other top win at the weight was over Don Creedon.

Well you seem to have ignored the Corbett fight, i am guessing you disagree with Fitz' weight here, but surely a heavyweight opponent is better than any middleweight Robinson faced. Then there is Choynski, who flattened Jack Johnson, Hall, etc. And the level of dominance that Fitz showed against other middleweights is just unbelievable.

Not really, at all. Having a long reign where you hardly face any MW's or name fighters (or fight that often in general) doesn't count for shit in my book.

Fight that often in general? He fought over 300 prizefights. At a rough count, as middleweight champion he averaged about 10 fights a year. How often did Ray fight as a middleweight again?

[PowerPuncher]

Whats all this about Fitz hitting as hard as Wlad on a PSI, what a load of bollox that 1 is

[PowerPuncher]

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On a more serious note imagine what will happen to the right side of Fitzsimons face when he tries to do this to avoid a Robinson Left hook.

Fitz is commiting cardinal sins there and Robinson would make him pay for that and all his other mistakes BIG TIME

[mcvey]

I see you mentioned the draw with Jose Basora,whilst Ray was still a welter.
You neglected to mention Ray kod him in 55 seconds when he had matured into a middleweight.

[SuzieQ49]

Whats all this about Fitz hitting as hard as Wlad on a PSI, what a load of bollox that 1 is


:lol::lol: Yes. Pretty Ridiculous huh?

[cross_trainer]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

On a more serious note imagine what will happen to the right side of Fitzsimons face when he tries to do this to avoid a Robinson Left hook.

He's avoiding a jab-ish lead left there, not a left hook. He blocked hooks with his arms.

[cross_trainer]

:lol::lol: Yes. Pretty Ridiculous huh?

Agreed; it's kinda silly.

[cross_trainer]

Fitz is commiting cardinal sins there and Robinson would make him pay for that and all his other mistakes BIG TIME

Leaning back is considered a legitimately useful tactic in the modern (albeit amateur) boxing manuals I've seen. It's just not recommended that you use it very frequently.

[PowerPuncher]

Leaning back is considered a legitimately useful tactic in the modern (albeit amateur) boxing manuals I've seen. It's just not recommended that you use it very frequently.

Its a cardinal sin and unless you dont want to get schooled by a world class boxer it shouldnt be done. You can make someone miss 1 shot but they only need to follow up to KD you. Thats why Hamed had so many KDs

If you're incredibly physically gifted like Ali/Hamed you may get away with it but sooner or later you'll meet someone who'll make you pay for it

Attempting such moves against the widely acknowledged best boxer of all time is going to see you punnished. And I'm not saying like some that SRR takes him out early, just expect a MAB-Hamed type of schooling

[cross_trainer]

Its a cardinal sin and unless you dont want to get schooled by a world class boxer it shouldnt be done. You can make someone miss 1 shot but they only need to follow up to KD you. Thats why Hamed had so many KDs

If you're incredibly physically gifted like Ali/Hamed you may get away with it but sooner or later you'll meet someone who'll make you pay for it

Attempting such moves against the widely acknowledged best boxer of all time is going to see you punnished. And I'm not saying like some that SRR takes him out early, just expect a MAB-Hamed type of schooling

USA Boxing present it as a viable tactic, and include it as one potential technique in their instructional material, and it shows up in about half the boxing manuals on Amazon.com. I think it's more a matter of not overusing it.

There's also the question of whether Hamed still close to his best against Barrera, but that's another story.

[mcvey]

I was taught never retreat in a straight line," get off the railtrack" in shorthand ,slip a jab,unless you are Ali or Jones.

[janitor]

Whats all this about Fitz hitting as hard as Wlad on a PSI, what a load of bollox that 1 is

But what if it turned out that it wasn't?

[OLD FOGEY]

On Fitz's punching power. It is all guesswork how Fitz stacks up against later fighters such as Dempsey, Baer, or Louis.

It is not all guesswork on Jeffries, as the two men had common opponents:

Corbett------Jeffries (ko 23, ko 10)
Corbett------Fitz (ko 14)

Let's call this one even

Ruhlin--------Jeffries (Draw 20, ko 5)
Ruhlin--------Fitz (ko 6)

I would give the edge to Fitz, but no worse than even.

Choynski-----Jeffries (Draw 20)
Choynski-----Fitz (NC 5--Choynski took several knockdowns and was out cold on the floor when the police stepped in and stopped fight. Usually called a draw or NC, this was really a knockout by Fitz)

Edge Fitz

Sharkey----------Jeffries (w 20, w 25)
Sharkey----------Fitz (lost foul 8*, ko 2---*Sharkey was knocked out in the fight in which Fitz was dq'd by Wyatt Earp, who according to his friend Bat Masterson, did not understand the rules and made a bad call. Basically Fitz ko'd Sharkey twice)

Edge Fitz

I think Fitz has a big edge on Jeff when you look at these common opponents. If it wasn't for the two freaky decisions, he would be 5-0 with 5 ko's, Jeff 5-0-2 with 3 ko's.

[mcvey]

But what if it turned out that it wasn't?

Johnson stated categorically that Fitz was a superior puncher to Jeffries,as his two kos of Sharkey would indicate imo.
I think this is a tough pick and a solid case can be made for either man, just cannot get my head around the possibilty of Robinson going out in the second round!

[Boilermaker]

But what if it turned out that it wasn't?

Janitor, was it you, that had mayn psi measurements of some of the all time greats?

[Boilermaker]

If you're incredibly physically gifted like Ali/Hamed you may get away with it but sooner or later you'll meet someone who'll make you pay for it

Attempting such moves against the widely acknowledged best boxer of all time is going to see you punnished.

:lol: So the greatest boxer ever can do it? But the greatest pound for pound boxer ever Cant?

Why does leaning back get Fitz crucified but not Ali? I agree that Fitz style isnt best for most, but (like ali) Fitz wasnt like most was he?

[Boilermaker]

Johnson stated categorically that Fitz was a superior puncher to Jeffries,as his two kos of Sharkey would indicate imo.
I think this is a tough pick and a solid case can be made for either man, just cannot get my head around the possibilty of Robinson going out in the second round!

Cmon McVey, change that pick:D I heard that when this fantasy contract was signed, Fitz insisted on signing it for an outdoor arena in Reno, Nevadas desert sun at 12.00pm midday with Large bright and hot white lights used to help televise the match. I hope Ray remembers to hydrate himself this time!

[prime]

Fascinating matchup.

Pound for pound, Robinson is the GOAT. But like Mr. George Washington Duke said, Let's talk reality. Robinson was an extraordinary welterweight, but, being human, upon fighting bigger men, he evidenced the corresponding natural limitations this task imposes as a matter of physics, particularly against talented men such as LaMotta and Maxim.

Bob Fitzsimmons deserves respect as what he was: a bigger man with a huge punch and the necessary ring know-how to track down a marvelous defensive genius in Gentleman Jim Corbett, knocking out the 184-pounder with his patented solar-plexus punch. Fitz, at 167, also beat the 200-plus-pound Big Jeff to a pulp before succumbing in the 11th. I honestly shudder to think what a Fitzsimmons smash would do to Sugar Ray.

Fitz is the naturally bigger man and close in overall talent to Robinson. A basic boxing tenet is a good big man beats a good little man. Fitzsimmons must be the natural favorite in this match. Robinson could win, but it would be an upset. It would mean he miraculously avoided getting hit solidly over 15 rounds, and I don't think this is realistic, particularly because of Ray's slashing style and idiosyncrasy. He was never simply a fancy Dan happy to dance along to a win on points. He was sweet as sugar, graceful non pareil, but a part of him also loved a war and this could very well be his undoing at any point in the fight. If LaMotta could hit Ray and exploit a 16-pound weight advantage, I see Fitz, no John Ruiz, certainly able to as well.

In their second fight, LaMotta romped over Ray. Sixteen pounds heavier, he knocked Robinson through the ropes in the 8th Round, and quite simply bulled through all Ray's wonderful resources, en route to a 52-47, 57-49, 55-45 decision. "I never fought a fighter as strong as he," said Ray. Certainly Fitzsimmons is a much harder puncher than Jake LaMotta.

Give me Fitzsimmons...by TKO.

[mcvey]

Cmon McVey, change that pick:D I heard that when this fantasy contract was signed, Fitz insisted on signing it for an outdoor arena in Reno, Nevadas desert sun at 12.00pm midday with Large bright and hot white lights used to help televise the match. I hope Ray remembers to hydrate himself this time!

I am a great admirer of Fitz and can easily see a scenario where he wins this ,and by stoppage ,I just thought you were a bit dismissive of SRR.
I will post in the FItz thread shortly ,and it will be complimentary to him:good

[PowerPuncher]

:lol: So the greatest boxer ever can do it? But the greatest pound for pound boxer ever Cant?

Why does leaning back get Fitz crucified but not Ali? I agree that Fitz style isnt best for most, but (like ali) Fitz wasnt like most was he?

Fitz isnt P4P anything in the grand scheme of things, he doesnt have the speed to pull it off against a great fighter. Anyway Ali paid for it against Frazier

Now tell us all again how Fitz hits as hard as Wlad :lol:

[Unforgiven]

Fitzsimmon by KO.
Because he was a beast, a murderous puncher. At his best he'd KO any middleweight or light-middle.

[PowerPuncher]

F*ck me does McClellan beat Robinson too, he smashed up some real heavyweights and he actually had some technical skills and speed

[Unforgiven]

F*ck me does McClellan beat Robinson too, he smashed up some real heavyweights and he actually had some technical skills and speed

I doubt it.

[teeto]

Fitzsimmon by KO.
Because he was a beast, a murderous puncher. At his best he'd KO any middleweight or light-middle.
Fucking thread got outta hand.

[Unforgiven]

I have to wonder whether Robinson would have even fought him.
He never fought guys like Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles or Floyd Patterson, guys who were knocking over heavyweights, he never fought a guy like Bob Satterfield even. Of all the punchers and great fighters he fought he didn't fight those guys who were proven capable of wrecking the big boys.
When he fought for the light-heavyweight championship he was up against a man who was known to have sub-average punching power.
And even at 159 pounds Bob Fitzsimmons was a giant killer with the world's hardest punch.

[PowerPuncher]

I have to wonder whether Robinson would have even fought him.
He never fought guys like Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles or Floyd Patterson, guys who were knocking over heavyweights, he never fought a guy like Bob Satterfield even. Of all the punchers and great fighters he fought he didn't fight those guys who were proven capable of wrecking the big boys.
When he fought for the light-heavyweight championship he was up against a man who was known to have sub-average punching power.
And even at 159 pounds Bob Fitzsimmons was a giant killer with the world's hardest punch.

Moore walked away from negotiations with Robinson :deal Anyway Fitz wasnt wrecking big men he stopped a LHW who happened to be HW champ, they were all bigger and better than Fitz

[Unforgiven]

Fitzsimmons knocked out Jim Corbett, Peter Maher, Tom Sharkey, Gus Ruhlin. All weighed over 175 and were top fighters.

[Boilermaker]

Anyway Fitz wasnt wrecking big men he stopped a LHW who happened to be HW champ, they were all bigger and better than Fitz

:lol: Corbett wasnt the only world class big man Fitz beat. Did you forget about Peter Maher, Tom Sharkey, Jim Daley, Gus Ruhlin and of course the 6'3 230 to 260 lb heavyweight contender Ed Dunkhorst.

[Flea Man]

:lol: Corbett wasnt the only world class big man Fitz beat. Did you forget about Peter Maher, Tom Sharkey, Jim Daley, Gus Ruhlin and of course the 6'3 230 to 260 lb heavyweight contender Ed Dunkhorst.

in modern terms Audley Harrison would probably beat all of those guys

[PowerPuncher]

Fitzsimmons knocked out Jim Corbett, Peter Maher, Tom Sharkey, Gus Ruhlin. All weighed over 175 and were top fighters.

BARELY and all could make certainly make LHW, Fitz was only giving up 10-17lbs, Roy Jones gave up around 40lbs against Ruiz. Fitz is at a disadvantage and it is an impressive achievement beating them but it isnt the god like achievement its made out to be

Its basically the same as Hopkins facing Adamek at 200lbs, except at 200lbs Adamek will be bigger with more technical skills

[PowerPuncher]

:lol: Corbett wasnt the only world class big man Fitz beat. Did you forget about Peter Maher, Tom Sharkey, Jim Daley, Gus Ruhlin and of course the 6'3 230 to 260 lb heavyweight contender Ed Dunkhorst.

Dunkhurst was a bum the rest probably could have made the LHW limit. Fitz was only giving up 10-17lbs against the quality HWs he faced, Roy Jones gave up around 40lbs against Ruiz. Fitz is at a disadvantage and it is an impressive achievement beating them but it isnt the god like achievement its made out to be

Its basically the same as Hopkins facing Adamek at 200lbs, except at 200lbs Adamek will be bigger with more technical skills

[Mr Butt]

in modern terms Audley Harrison would probably beat all of those guys


audley beats all challengers to his saviour of the universe tittle :D

[Unforgiven]

Gus Ruhlin was about 195 pounds when he fought Fitzsimmons, and it's almost irrelevant whether those guys "could have" made 175 pounds.
They were bigger than middleweights and in-shape at over 175 pounds.
Fitzsimmons was knocking out bigger men who were well-regarded fighters and durable. His punching power was rated - on his results - as the best in the world, regardless of weight.
In contrast, Robinson wasn't stopping top any light-heavyweights and wasn't fighting any top light-heavyweight puncher, and never beat a top light-heavyweight.

[PowerPuncher]

In contrast, Robinson wasn't stopping top any light-heavyweights and wasn't fighting any top light-heavyweight puncher, and never beat a top light-heavyweight.

Guess what, the fights at MW not LHW, Robinson has stopped many top middleweights and was fighting top middleweight punchers, and beat many top middleweights

Fitz also would have to drain down to 160lbs, this isnt the 167-170lb version of Fitz

[Boilermaker]

Guess what, the fights at MW not LHW, Robinson has stopped many top middleweights and was fighting top middleweight punchers, and beat many top middleweights

Fitz also would have to drain down to 160lbs, this isnt the 167-170lb version of Fitz

Fitz doesnt have to drain down to anything. He won the world Heavyweight title at 158! He can go up a pound or to if he wants.

I am interested, what do you base your statement that Dunkhorst was a bum on, exactly. I am guessing that it wasnt the film? Incomplete Boxrec records perhaps?

By the way, like Robinson, Fitz also met many top middleweights himself, difference is, he knocked them all out. One of them, Joe Choynski did actually last 5 rounds, but he ended flat on his back, and he was a light heavyweight at the time.

[Unforgiven]

Guess what, the fights at MW not LHW, Robinson has stopped many top middleweights and was fighting top middleweight punchers, and beat many top middleweights

Fitz also would have to drain down to 160lbs, this isnt the 167-170lb version of Fitz

Apparently Fitzsimmons had no problem making that weight, and it's rumoured that his announced weights of 167 were bullshit anyway. Someone who was with him before the Corbett fight wrote that he saw Bob weigh himself at something like 158 a day before the fight.

Anyway, that's not the point. I was just pointing out that Fitzsimmons' power is proven against bigger men than Robinson's is, and his ability to survive bigger men of that size and soak up their punches is proven, whereas Robinson's isn't.

I've seen lots of Robinson middleweight footage. And while he's undeniably great, and can do a great many things in the ring, he does get hit. I think it's reasonable to pick the freakishly powerful and savvy one-punch hitter Fitzsimmons to ruin his day in this one.

[PowerPuncher]

Fitz doesnt have to drain down to anything. He won the world Heavyweight title at 158! He can go up a pound or to if he wants.

I am interested, what do you base your statement that Dunkhorst was a bum on, exactly. I am guessing that it wasnt the film? Incomplete Boxrec records perhaps?

No he didnt he was 167lbs

Dunkhurst put on 55lbs in 3years, which makes him a fat ass. He lost to everyone half decent and there is no evidence he is any good. I know you have the career set of Dunkhurst showing off his amazing ability, we cant see right :lol:

[PowerPuncher]

Apparently Fitzsimmons had no problem making that weight, and it's rumoured that his announced weights of 167 were bullshit anyway. Someone who was with him before the Corbett fight wrote that he saw Bob weigh himself at something like 158 a day before the fight.

Anyway, that's not the point. I was just pointing out that Fitzsimmons' power is proven against bigger men than Robinson's is, and his ability to survive bigger men of that size and soak up their punches is proven, whereas Robinson's isn't.

I've seen lots of Robinson middleweight footage. And while he's undeniably great, and can do a great many things in the ring, he does get hit. I think it's reasonable to pick the freakishly powerful and savvy one-punch hitter Fitzsimmons to ruin his day in this one.

I dont think Fitz has freakish power though, I think GMAN for 1 had better power than him and I certainly wouldnt pick GMAN over Robinson either

Plus you dont usually land your best shots on great fighters and Robinson would be the greatest. Especially when Fitz looks slow and prehistoric in technique. Add to that Robinson has never looked in serious trouble throughout his career, never KO'd, going for a KO is a huge stretch

[mcvey]

Dunkhurst was a bum the rest probably could have made the LHW limit. Fitz was only giving up 10-17lbs against the quality HWs he faced, Roy Jones gave up around 40lbs against Ruiz. Fitz is at a disadvantage and it is an impressive achievement beating them but it isnt the god like achievement its made out to be

Its basically the same as Hopkins facing Adamek at 200lbs, except at 200lbs Adamek will be bigger with more technical skills

Ruhlin was 6 2in and usually scaled between 190 and 200 lbs, I dont see him as a LHVY.
Fitz conceded 39 lbs in the 1st Jeffries fight and 47lbs in the 2nd ,plus 13 years in age.

[OLD FOGEY]

in modern terms Audley Harrison would probably beat all of those guys



Audley also beats Robinson. What is the point?

[OLD FOGEY]

BARELY and all could make certainly make LHW, Fitz was only giving up 10-17lbs, Roy Jones gave up around 40lbs against Ruiz. Fitz is at a disadvantage and it is an impressive achievement beating them but it isnt the god like achievement its made out to be

Its basically the same as Hopkins facing Adamek at 200lbs, except at 200lbs Adamek will be bigger with more technical skills

Roy Jones?

Now Robinson is going to beat Roy Jones?

"It isn't the god like achievement its made out to be"

No one else has ever held the undisputed middleweight, lightheavyweight, and heavyweight titles.

I don't know about god like, but if a man does what no one else has ever done, it is pretty impressive.

[OLD FOGEY]

Dunkhurst was a bum the rest probably could have made the LHW limit. Fitz was only giving up 10-17lbs against the quality HWs he faced, Roy Jones gave up around 40lbs against Ruiz. Fitz is at a disadvantage and it is an impressive achievement beating them but it isnt the god like achievement its made out to be

Its basically the same as Hopkins facing Adamek at 200lbs, except at 200lbs Adamek will be bigger with more technical skills

Dunkhurst was nearly 6' 4" and less than six months earlier had beaten Bob Armstrong, a respectable contender who was once colored champion. He also had gone 22 rounds with Gus Ruhlin. He was a journeyman, but hardly that bad.

[OLD FOGEY]

Guess what, the fights at MW not LHW, Robinson has stopped many top middleweights and was fighting top middleweight punchers, and beat many top middleweights

Fitz also would have to drain down to 160lbs, this isnt the 167-170lb version of Fitz

Yes, and he also lost to a slew of these middleweights, and I don't think they were all that impressive a bunch, to be frank. Robinson stopped LaMotta in 13. In his next fight LaMotta was stopped by the crude as hell Bob Murphy in 7 and a bit later by the even more crude Danny Nardico in 8. Beating LaMotta is impressive for a welter, but not so impressive that Fritzie Zivic couldn't do it.

Turpin beat Robinson badly in London. In the rematch Robinson was cut up and in trouble when he rallied to hurt Turpin and the ref stopped the fight. Everyone wanted a rubber. Robinson walked away.

Robinson went up against Maxim, certainly not the top lightheavy in the world as his next fight with Moore proved, and got stopped by this powderpuff puncher.

On the comeback trail in 1954, Robinson lost very badly to the ordinary Tiger Jones, losing every round. Later he was beaten badly by Fullmer, and also lost to the much smaller Basilio in 1957. While Robinson was aging, it is worth noting that Fitz was older than this when he ko'd Ruhlin and Sharkey, much older when he broke the huge Jeffries' nose and sliced Jeff up so badly that it looked like Jeff had fallen face first into a silage blower, and at forty Fitz beat Gardner for the lightheavy title.

And who of Robinson's opponents is a TOP middleweight puncher. Robinson himself said Artie Levine was the hardest puncher he faced. The top middleweights he fought were not known for being punchers, except for the over-the-hill Graziano, definitely dangerous, but much cruder, off the film, than Fitz and also much smaller. Graziano still knocked Robinson down.

Being the undisputed champion of every weight class from less than 150 lbs to the unlimited class might not impress you, but I find it far more impressive than going 8-6-1 in middleweight championship contests.

[JimmyShimmy]

This thread is ridiculous, Fitzsimmons batters Robinson and he makes it look easy.

There is nothing to suggest Robinson wins, now hit me!

[PowerPuncher]

Roy Jones?

Now Robinson is going to beat Roy Jones?

"It isn't the god like achievement its made out to be"

No one else has ever held the undisputed middleweight, lightheavyweight, and heavyweight titles.

I don't know about god like, but if a man does what no one else has ever done, it is pretty impressive.

Beating 1890s HWs is allot different from fighting modern heavies and many post 20s MWs would replicate the same feat if the division was as weak and the HWs Fitz beat and as small in stature for that matter too

[PowerPuncher]

Yes, and he also lost to a slew of these middleweights, and I don't think they were all that impressive a bunch, to be frank. Robinson stopped LaMotta in 13. In his next fight LaMotta was stopped by the crude as hell Bob Murphy in 7 and a bit later by the even more crude Danny Nardico in 8. Beating LaMotta is impressive for a welter, but not so impressive that Fritzie Zivic couldn't do it.

Turpin beat Robinson badly in London. In the rematch Robinson was cut up and in trouble when he rallied to hurt Turpin and the ref stopped the fight. Everyone wanted a rubber. Robinson walked away.

Robinson went up against Maxim, certainly not the top lightheavy in the world as his next fight with Moore proved, and got stopped by this powderpuff puncher.

On the comeback trail in 1954, Robinson lost very badly to the ordinary Tiger Jones, losing every round. Later he was beaten badly by Fullmer, and also lost to the much smaller Basilio in 1957. While Robinson was aging, it is worth noting that Fitz was older than this when he ko'd Ruhlin and Sharkey, much older when he broke the huge Jeffries' nose and sliced Jeff up so badly that it looked like Jeff had fallen face first into a silage blower, and at forty Fitz beat Gardner for the lightheavy title.

And who of Robinson's opponents is a TOP middleweight puncher. Robinson himself said Artie Levine was the hardest puncher he faced. The top middleweights he fought were not known for being punchers, except for the over-the-hill Graziano, definitely dangerous, but much cruder, off the film, than Fitz and also much smaller. Graziano still knocked Robinson down.

Being the undisputed champion of every weight class from less than 150 lbs to the unlimited class might not impress you, but I find it far more impressive than going 8-6-1 in middleweight championship contests.

People take way too much notice of Robinsons past prime second career, he was forced back into the ring by IRS debts much like Louis, but unlike Louis had much more success

Who's to say Fitz is even a banger with 8OZ gloves?

[JimmyShimmy]

There's that magical word again...'Modern'. Ooooo...modern!

Come to think about it anyone with a jab, anyone who does anything that looks like some kind of shoulder role or anyone that says things like "Yeah baby!" after they land a punch clearly has pure modern ability.

I know where people are going when they talk about the modern-side of things, but no one ever breaks it down and specifies on the interchangeables to then try and find an objective level-playing field.

Now start analysing better ya goofs. And some of you people box! Sheesh.

[OLD FOGEY]

People take way too much notice of Robinsons past prime second career, he was forced back into the ring by IRS debts much like Louis, but unlike Louis had much more success

Who's to say Fitz is even a banger with 8OZ gloves?

Most of Robinson's prime career was at welterweight.

Fitz did better than Robinson into old age, actually. Robinson was a much better fighter than Fitz when they were in their twenties. Fitz was the much better fighter when they were in their thirties. That means Robinson was at his best as a welterweight, Fitz as a middle or super-middle.

"Who's to say Fitz is even a banger with 8oz gloves?"

Well, the other men of his era used the same gloves he did. He punched harder than they did. I think he still does with 8oz gloves. Also, how do we know Robinson could take punches from a Fitz era glove?

[OLD FOGEY]

Beating 1890s HWs is allot different from fighting modern heavies and many post 20s MWs would replicate the same feat if the division was as weak and the HWs Fitz beat and as small in stature for that matter too

And a 21st century wolf would easily handle an 1890's tiger. Everyone knows that.

"many post 20s MWs would replicate the same feat if the division was as weak and the hws Fitz beat and as small in stature for that matter too"

Even if this over-the-top argument were true, Robinson had more than enough problems handling Carmen Basilio, let alone Tom Sharkey, and Fitz's opponents were a hell of a lot bigger than anyone Robinson was beating.

Skill is not exactly everything. The crude as hell Danny Nardico destoyed Jake LaMotta in a way the skilled as hell Robinson never could. Why? The twenty plus pounds and all that power probably explains it.

[Flea Man]

There's that magical word again...'Modern'. Ooooo...modern!

Come to think about it anyone with a jab, anyone who does anything that looks like some kind of shoulder role or anyone that says things like "Yeah baby!" after they land a punch clearly has pure modern ability.

I know where people are going when they talk about the modern-side of things, but no one ever breaks it down and specifies on the interchangeables to then try and find an objective level-playing field.

Now start analysing better ya goofs. And some of you people box! Sheesh.

I take it you're being sarcastic? Where's your analysis?

[junior-soprano]

Jaysus.

You've got to like Robinson here. On the generalship and on the speed. I think he'd be smart enough to work the angles and keep the distance when neccessary.

Very wide decision that doesn't do anything to capture the sense of danger throughout the fight.

perfectly put... the difference is to great

[hermeneut]

There's that magical word again...'Modern'. Ooooo...modern!

Come to think about it anyone with a jab, anyone who does anything that looks like some kind of shoulder role or anyone that says things like "Yeah baby!" after they land a punch clearly has pure modern ability.

I know where people are going when they talk about the modern-side of things, but no one ever breaks it down and specifies on the interchangeables to then try and find an objective level-playing field.

Now start analysing better ya goofs. And some of you people box! Sheesh.

JimmyShimmy wrote:

"I know where people are going when they talk about the modern-side of things, but no one ever breaks it down and specifies on the interchangeables to then try and find an objective level-playing field."

Now that is one thought-provoking statement!

How to cross historical times, subtract this or that historical circumstance-which includes styles conforming to particular times, manners and customs of boxing, the actual physical condition at some time or other of the boxer, etc.- then come up with some residue, some common denominator, by which we can pit the boxers against one another in a way we can then appraise?

And what would that common "objective" denominator be?

I ask that if I understand what JimmyShimmy is getting at.

[Flea Man]

JimmyShimmy wrote:

"I know where people are going when they talk about the modern-side of things, but no one ever breaks it down and specifies on the interchangeables to then try and find an objective level-playing field."

Now that is one thought-provoking statement!

How to cross historical times, subtract this or that historical circumstance-which includes styles conforming to particular times, manners and customs of boxing, the actual physical condition at some time or other of the boxer, etc.- then come up with some residue, some common denominator, by which we can pit the boxers against one another in a way we can then appraise?

And what would that common "objective" denominator be?

I ask that if I understand what JimmyShimmy is getting at.

If he knew what he was talking about he'd post his own stylistic analysis.

As it is it's just 'he'd smash him'.

[Rock0052]

perfectly put... the difference is to great

I've got to think a fighter good enough that Joe Gans would study him and receive advice from isn't too far below Robinson's league to beat the middleweight version of Sugar Ray.

[Flea Man]

I've got to think a fighter good enough that Joe Gans would study him and receive advice from isn't too far below Robinson's league to beat the middleweight version of Sugar Ray.

I also hinks Gans would be sub-par against 'modern' ATG's. From what I've seen of him (little and grainy) he seemed FANTASTIC for his time, a true innovator and very much influential to later fighters.

If he got some of that from Fitz, great. Sums up my opinion that Fitz was also a great of his time.

Do you think the fastest man around this time could beat Usain Bolt in a race? No, because nowadays we can help our natural talents with all kinds of conditioning, getting the best out of every muscle in the body.

Ray Robinson is not that advanced but like Fitzsimmons he was very, very well conditioned. Put this with a stunning array of attacks and slick boxing and ring generalship Fitz had never seen before.

Ray would be harder to figure out from Fitzsimmons perspective than the other way round IMO.

[Mr Butt]

fitzsimmons too primitive. i think ray would annihilate him, early.



fleaman do you still think robinson annihilates early

just curious how early and how

[janitor]

Who's to say Fitz is even a banger with 8OZ gloves?

Fitzsimmons fought a lot of fights with 8oz gloves and so did Sullivan.

It was the exception, and they were regarded as pillows, but some states mandated them.

[janitor]

And a 21st century wolf would easily handle an 1890's tiger. Everyone knows that.


The thinking of some posters on this site is more akin to, "A 21st century wolf would easily handle a 66 million year old T rex".

The Trex was great for its time but would have no chance against the wolf's more modern technique.

It wouldnt know what was happening when the wolf started trying to outflank it.

[Flea Man]

fleaman do you still think robinson annihilates early

just curious how early and how

Yes. You think the last few pages have convinced me otherwise? Interesting no doubt, conclusive, nope. I still consider Fitz a true imitator, but apart from his style being completely awkward to Ray, I think Fitz would get bamboozled.

[Rock0052]

I also hinks Gans would be sub-par against 'modern' ATG's. From what I've seen of him (little and grainy) he seemed FANTASTIC for his time, a true innovator and very much influential to later fighters.

If he got some of that from Fitz, great. Sums up my opinion that Fitz was also a great of his time.

Do you think the fastest man around this time could beat Usain Bolt in a race? No, because nowadays we can help our natural talents with all kinds of conditioning, getting the best out of every muscle in the body.

Ray Robinson is not that advanced but like Fitzsimmons he was very, very well conditioned. Put this with a stunning array of attacks and slick boxing and ring generalship Fitz had never seen before.

Ray would be harder to figure out from Fitzsimmons perspective than the other way round IMO.

What happens when the older fighter is the Usain Bolt of punching power? Robinson had a tested chin, for sure, but he never fought anyone in the same league as Fitzsimmons as it relates to punching power. Middleweight Ray got hit- and Fitzsimmons has too much power and is accurate enough to make him pay dearly for it.

If he were wearing bigger gloves and were fighting within 15 rounds, I think we'd have seen Fitzsimmons hit even harder because there wouldn't have been the same issues of hand preservation to take into account.

[PowerPuncher]

And a 21st century wolf would easily handle an 1890's tiger. Everyone knows that.

"many post 20s MWs would replicate the same feat if the division was as weak and the hws Fitz beat and as small in stature for that matter too"

Even if this over-the-top argument were true, Robinson had more than enough problems handling Carmen Basilio, let alone Tom Sharkey, and Fitz's opponents were a hell of a lot bigger than anyone Robinson was beating.

Skill is not exactly everything. The crude as hell Danny Nardico destoyed Jake LaMotta in a way the skilled as hell Robinson never could. Why? The twenty plus pounds and all that power probably explains it.

I told you the 1890s HWs simply weren't HWs, you have no answer for that because they simply weren't real HWs. Many of Roy Jones light heavyweight opposition weighed more in the ring than Fitzsimmons heavyweight opposition. These are simply facts and you have no comeback on them

Here's some more facts, Fitzsimmons is far slower, he fights at a far slower pace, he has poor technique, he has a poor technical defense, he has no jab. All that we can visably see, why did he have success? I'd say because he competed in an era where boxing skills were undeveloped, a sport which at the time had a small talent pool, where training and nutrition were undeveloped

Why are you talking about a 38yo Robinsons struggles with Basilo? Surely irrelevant to a prime match up. Its hypocrazy at its finest when proponents of early 1900s HWs claim 'size isnt everything', and then go onto claim Fitz must be better because he beat bigger men

[Flea Man]

What happens when the older fighter is the Usain Bolt of punching power? Robinson had a tested chin, for sure, but he never fought anyone in the same league as Fitzsimmons as it relates to punching power. Middleweight Ray got hit- and Fitzsimmons has too much power and is accurate enough to make him pay dearly for it.

If he were wearing bigger gloves and were fighting within 15 rounds, I think we'd have seen Fitzsimmons hit even harder because there wouldn't have been the same issues of hand preservation to take into account.

Did he have problems with his hands? If so, fair enough. If not then surely his dead-eyed precision and accuracy would see it better for him to be wearing lighter gloves? Surely his timing is going to see him land one or two shots (maybe the famed 'Solar Plezus' punch) and therefore he isn't going to need to worry about 'preserving his hands'.

And, as yu say, Ray was fairly hittable at MW.

[Flea Man]

I told you the 1890s HWs simply weren't HWs, you have no answer for that because they simply weren't real HWs. Many of Roy Jones light heavyweight opposition weighed more in the ring than Fitzsimmons heavyweight opposition. These are simply facts and you have no comeback on them

Here's some more facts, Fitzsimmons is far slower, he fights at a far slower pace, he has poor technique, he has a poor technical defense, he has no jab. All that we can visably see, why did he have success? I'd say because he competed in an era where boxing skills were undeveloped, a sport which at the time had a small talent pool, where training and nutrition were undeveloped

Why are you talking about a 38yo Robinsons struggles with Basilo? Surely irrelevant to a prime match up. Its hypocrazy at its finest when proponents of early 1900s HWs claim 'size isnt everything', and then go onto claim Fitz must be better because he beat bigger men

Agree 100% :good

[Rock0052]

Did he have problems with his hands? If so, fair enough. If not then surely his dead-eyed precision and accuracy would see it better for him to be wearing lighter gloves? Surely his timing is going to see him land one or two shots (maybe the famed 'Solar Plezus' punch) and therefore he isn't going to need to worry about 'preserving his hands'.

And, as yu say, Ray was fairly hittable at MW.

Fair points. :good

He didn't have prolific hand problems, but it is something that had to be taken into account given how much more common they were under the circumstances of the day; lighter gloves and extremely long fights would generally discourage going all-out in punching because of the risk of a broken hand. Bigger gloves were devised as much to protect fighters' hands as much as to protect the other fighter's head.

Still, given that his fights rarely past the opening rounds, let alone went past 15, I wouldn't say he held off too much. :D

[janitor]

I told you the 1890s HWs simply weren't HWs, you have no answer for that because they simply weren't real HWs. Many of Roy Jones light heavyweight opposition weighed more in the ring than Fitzsimmons heavyweight opposition.

It depends who you are talking about.

In Fitzsimmons era a heavyweight was anybody over 160 lbs but the other side of the coin was that you could be 160 lbs and end up fighting some 230 lb hulk for the title as was the case for Jem Mace.

Fitzsimmons fought heavyweights ranging from 160 to 270 lbs on his way up to the title and some of the guys who are listed as 0-0-0 or 1-1-0 on boxrec were commonwealth grade fighters. The Danny Williams or Kevin McBrides of their day.

Now when Bob Fitzsimmons fough Gus Ruhlin the weights were anounced as 155lbs Fitz 195 Ruhlin, but if you look into it it becomes apparent that both weights were fabrications. Reporters in their training camps and at ringside thought the weights were Fitzsimmons 165 and Ruhlin 205.

Now Fitzsimmons held his hands at his sides and taunted Ruhlin letting him take a number of clean chots at his chin. Later he knocked Ruhlin so cold that he fell over face first and didnt even put his arms out to stop himself.

That is what Robinson is up against.

[janitor]

Did he have problems with his hands?

Yes.

Fitzsimmons was plagued by hand problems throughout his career.

I have read a lot of contemporary newspaper articles and there is often a refference to it.

[PowerPuncher]

It depends who you are talking about.

In Fitzsimmons era a heavyweight was anybody over 160 lbs but the other side of the coin was that you could be 160 lbs and end up fighting some 230 lb hulk for the title as was the case for Jem Mace.

Fitzsimmons fought heavyweights ranging from 160 to 270 lbs on his way up to the title and some of the guys who are listed as 0-0-0 or 1-1-0 on boxrec were commonwealth grade fighters. The Danny Williams or Kevin McBrides of their day.

Now when Bob Fitzsimmons fough Gus Ruhlin the weights were anounced as 155lbs Fitz 195 Ruhlin, but if you look into it it becomes apparent that both weights were fabrications. Reporters in their training camps and at ringside thought the weights were Fitzsimmons 165 and Ruhlin 205.

Now Fitzsimmons held his hands at his sides and taunted Ruhlin letting him take a number of clean chots at his chin. Later he knocked Ruhlin so cold that he fell over face first and didnt even put his arms out to stop himself.

That is what Robinson is up against.

Are we playing make believe now? What evidence is this based on exactly?

Robinson is up against a man that is easy to hit and has slow hands that will have trouble landing himself, thats the essence of it, I'm not going to say Robinson KO1 but Fitz will get schooled

[OLD FOGEY]

I told you the 1890s HWs simply weren't HWs, you have no answer for that because they simply weren't real HWs. Many of Roy Jones light heavyweight opposition weighed more in the ring than Fitzsimmons heavyweight opposition. These are simply facts and you have no comeback on them

Here's some more facts, Fitzsimmons is far slower, he fights at a far slower pace, he has poor technique, he has a poor technical defense, he has no jab. All that we can visably see, why did he have success? I'd say because he competed in an era where boxing skills were undeveloped, a sport which at the time had a small talent pool, where training and nutrition were undeveloped

Why are you talking about a 38yo Robinsons struggles with Basilo? Surely irrelevant to a prime match up. Its hypocrazy at its finest when proponents of early 1900s HWs claim 'size isnt everything', and then go onto claim Fitz must be better because he beat bigger men

1. I am not going to play a ducks and drakes game over what a heavyweight is or isn't. I would just point out that Corbett, Sharkey, Maher, Ruhlin, Dunkhurst, and Jeffries were 180 or above which made them heavyweights in that era and for most of boxing history. The real point here is that these men would be twenty to forty pounds or more heavier than Robinson and about that much heavier than anyone Robinson defeated. And if you asked Sugar Ray Robinson, he would have said all these men were heavyweights, because they still would have been in his era.

2. Roy Jones--what has Roy Jones to do with this thread? Robinson was not fighting the men Roy Jones fought. All the major opponents Robinson actually defeated weighed 160 or less pounds on the day of the fight.

3. "Here are some facts"

Thanks for your opinions, but I still waiting for even one fact. I will just stick to pointing out that speed and technique are not exactly everything or Willie Pep would have been the lightweight and welterweight champion, but he never was.

4. I don't know who in the hell ever said size isn't important. It wasn't me. What I have said is that really big heavyweights prior to the sixties generally lost to the men, such as Dempsey, that you apparently do not consider heavyweights. That actually is a fact.

[Wu-Gambino]

Robinson by KO early. Fitz kept his hands dangerously low (and I know it was a different era with different rules and techniques) and didn't really show the head movement to compensate against Ray's arsenal and superior technique (the gap between the two is immense). Under modern rules Fitz would get blitzed.

[Wu-Gambino]

I will just stick to pointing out that speed and technique are not exactly everything or Willie Pep would have been the lightweight and welterweight champion, but he never was.

I think he did alright considering he's arguably the greatest featherweight of all time and top 10 p4p. Not too shabby wouldn't you say?

[Flea Man]

Fair points. :good

He didn't have prolific hand problems, but it is something that had to be taken into account given how much more common they were under the circumstances of the day; lighter gloves and extremely long fights would generally discourage going all-out in punching because of the risk of a broken hand. Bigger gloves were devised as much to protect fighters' hands as much as to protect the other fighter's head.

Still, given that his fights rarely past the opening rounds, let alone went past 15, I wouldn't say he held off too much. :D

I was being sarcastic.

Also, Janitor says he was 'plagued by hand problems throughout his career' whilst you say what I have BOLDTYPED.

Do you know as much as you are letting on or assuming that I don't as I know Janitor to be a very reliable source when it comes to this era of boxing.

[OLD FOGEY]

Robinson by KO early. Fitz kept his hands dangerously low (and I know it was a different era with different rules and techniques) and didn't really show the head movement to compensate against Ray's arsenal and superior technique (the gap between the two is immense). Under modern rules Fitz would get blitzed.

Unless, of course, knowing the fight is only for fifteen rounds, short for his era, he raises his gaurd. And can Robinson hold his gaurd up high and dance about the ring if the fight is 25 or more rounds. And, by the way, why do we assume modern rules? I guess perhaps the moderater is, but it seems to me this is stacking the deck a bit for Robinson.

[Flea Man]

I think he did alright considering he's arguably the greatest featherweight of all time and top 10 p4p. Not too shabby wouldn't you say?

He probably would've been the FW LW and WW champ of his day pre-war.

[OLD FOGEY]

I think he did alright considering he's arguably the greatest featherweight of all time and top 10 p4p. Not too shabby wouldn't you say?

All this seems beside the point I raised. His speed and technique did not allow him to defeat noticably larger opponents.

[Flea Man]

Unless, of course, knowing the fight is only for fifteen rounds, short for his era, he raises his gaurd. And can Robinson hold his gaurd up high and dance about the ring if the fight is 25 or more rounds. And, by the way, why do we assume modern rules? I guess perhaps the moderater is, but it seems to me this is stacking the deck a bit for Robinson.

Pure speculation. Why bend this just to make your own points seem valid?

Even under Fitz's era rules Robinson would batter him. Fitz was super strong but he's gonna be trying to grapple with someone who isn't there. Even if he does Ray will be unloading combos left right and centre on the way in.

it's like me saying 'let's assume Arguello realises he struggles against boxers so he gets fast feet and throws flashier eye-catching combos to stealr ounds'.

If one of your faves isn't favoured to win, don't go imagining new aspects of his repertoire :good

[Wu-Gambino]

Unless, of course, knowing the fight is only for fifteen rounds, short for his era, he raises his gaurd. And can Robinson hold his gaurd up high and dance about the ring if the fight is 25 or more rounds. And, by the way, why do we assume modern rules? I guess perhaps the moderater is, but it seems to me this is stacking the deck a bit for Robinson.

You can't really assume Fitz would do something we've never seen him do before, sorry. At the same time I can't comment on how Robinson would do against Fitz in the latter's era under the latter's rules and regulations, although I imagine the transition would be easier for Ray than vice versea.

[OLD FOGEY]

He probably would've been the FW LW and WW champ of his day pre-war.

Why? Pep lost to Sammy Angott, the lightweight champion.

[Wu-Gambino]

His speed and technique did not allow him to defeat noticably larger opponents.
Like who? Angott?

[janitor]

[quote=PowerPuncher;4750368]Are we playing make believe now? What evidence is this based on exactly?


Based on the evidence of contemporary newspaper articles.

I can give detailed examples if you want.

[OLD FOGEY]

Pure speculation. Why bend this just to make your own points seem valid?

Even under Fitz's era rules Robinson would batter him. Fitz was super strong but he's gonna be trying to grapple with someone who isn't there. Even if he does Ray will be unloading combos left right and centre on the way in.

it's like me saying 'let's assume Arguello realises he struggles against boxers so he gets fast feet and throws flashier eye-catching combos to stealr ounds'.

If one of your faves isn't favoured to win, don't go imagining new aspects of his repertoire :good


"but he's gonna be trying to grapple with someone who isn't there."

You can run but you can't hide. Robinson will be there sooner or later. He was there for a plodder like LaMotta, and Fitz is certainly faster afoot and of hand than Jake, off the film. Fitz doesn't need something new. I was only pointing out that he held his hands lower for two reasons--he had to fight a much longer distance, and he had to protect his body. Body punches with the smaller gloves were far more damaging. By the way, another old cliche which is going to come into play here "kill the body and the head dies too." Fitz will be "hitting him in the slats" as they used to say and I think that will sap Robinson badly.

[janitor]

[quote=fleaman;4750619]Pure speculation. Why bend this just to make your own points seem valid?


You can't really assume Fitz would do something we've never seen him do before, sorry.

Fitzsimmons adopted a higher guard to defend himself in some fights, but only when the going got tough.

He did not fight his pro debut in a 20 rounder. He had experience of fights ranging from 4 to 40 rounds and gloves ranging from none to 8oz.

[OLD FOGEY]

Like who? Angott?

Well, who was the biggest good fighter Pep defeated?

[Wu-Gambino]

Why? Pep lost to Sammy Angott, the lightweight champion.
So that's your reasoning? Pep lost once in 60 plus fights to a tough 135 pounder in Angott (in a fight scored very closely nonetheless) and you use that to downplay the effectiveness of speed and technique versus size. The gap in technique between Pep and Angott (who's mauling style would be rough for Pep regardless of size advantage anyway) isn't as great as the gap between Fitz and Robinson anyway. Remember, these two are from completely different eras.

[OLD FOGEY]

[quote]


Based on the evidence of contemporary newspaper articles.

I can give detailed examples if you want.

I know that opponents such as Professor Billy McCarthy and Arthur Upham were far more experienced and respected opponents than their boxrec records indicate.

[Flea Man]

Newspapers aren't that reliable nowadays but Media has changed a lot since Fitz's day and I have little to no evidence myself (without investigating media representation and potential fallacies from around that time which may blow a whole can of worms open on the 'nespaper scheme' although I'll assume they were genuinely providing a service back in the day and not bullshitting) to prove thy aren't accurate reports.

But I guarantee you if you took Ray Robinson back then the newspaper reports would be even more hyperbolic; they would be dazzled and probably proclaim the 2nd coming of Jesus.

[Wu-Gambino]

Well, who was the biggest good fighter Pep defeated?
Future lightweight champ Paddy DeMarco.

[OLD FOGEY]

So that's your reasoning? Pep lost once in 60 plus fights to a tough 135 pounder in Angott (in a fight scored very closely nonetheless) and you use that to downplay the effectiveness of speed and technique versus size. The gap in technique between Pep and Angott (who's mauling style would be rough for Pep regardless of size advantage anyway) isn't as great as the gap between Fitz and Robinson anyway. Remember, these two are from completely different eras.

Fleaman posted in Post #120 above that Pep would probably have been the featherweight, lightweight, and welterweight champion before the war and I responded by pointing out he actually lost to the lightweight champion.

My point--what is the evidence that despite his great speed and skill, Pep could beat good bigger men. I don't think there is any. And Robinson never proved he could beat anyone above a middleweight. Size does matter.

[OLD FOGEY]

Newspapers aren't that reliable nowadays but Media has changed a lot since Fitz's day and I have little to no evidence myself (without investigating media representation and potential fallacies from around that time which may blow a whole can of worms open on the 'nespaper scheme' although I'll assume they were genuinely providing a service back in the day and not bullshitting) to prove thy aren't accurate reports.

But I guarantee you if you took Ray Robinson back then the newspaper reports would be even more hyperbolic; they would be dazzled and probably proclaim the 2nd coming of Jesus.

They couldn't really get much more hyperbolic than you fellows have, not stopping with just considering Robinson the greatest p4p fighter of all time, but taking flying leaps into the dark about how he will defeat easily fighters with great records even if they are somewhat bigger (Fitz) or even much bigger (Corbett).

I consider Robinson the best p4p fighter of them all, but even I have to pause at escalating the praise from his just being Sugar Ray to being Super Ray, faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, etc.

He actually had an in and out record at middle, and the opposition was not that severe.

[Rock0052]

I was being sarcastic.

Also, Janitor says he was 'plagued by hand problems throughout his career' whilst you say what I have BOLDTYPED.

Do you know as much as you are letting on or assuming that I don't as I know Janitor to be a very reliable source when it comes to this era of boxing.

I was simply playing along. I wouldn't have brought up the gloves issue in the first place if he had perfect hands. The main point was that even if he had healthy hands, the circumstances he fought under would lead to him not hitting as hard as he possibly could've. With larger gloves and a shorter match, that wouldn't have been the case and- or certainly much less of one, and he'd have hit harder. :good

[Wu-Gambino]

They couldn't really get much more hyperbolic than you fellows have, not stopping with just considering Robinson the greatest p4p fighter of all time, but taking flying leaps into the dark about how he will easily fighters with great records even if they are somewhat bigger (Fitz) or even much bigger (Corbett).

I consider Robinson the best p4p fighter of them all, but even I have to pause at escalating the praise from his just being Sugar Ray to being Super Ray, faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, etc.

I think you're really underestimating the gap in skill. What have you seen Fitz do better than Ray on film?

[Flea Man]

I was simply playing along. I wouldn't have brought up the gloves issue in the first place if he had perfect hands. The main point was that even if he had healthy hands, the circumstances he fought under would lead to him not hitting as hard as he possibly could've. With larger gloves and a shorter match, that wouldn't have been the case and- or certainly much less of one, and he'd have hit harder. :good


Maybe I'm more baked then I think I am but this last sentence doesn't seem to make any sense :huh

[janitor]

Newspapers aren't that reliable nowadays but Media has changed a lot since Fitz's day and I have little to no evidence myself (without investigating media representation and potential fallacies from around that time which may blow a whole can of worms open on the 'nespaper scheme' although I'll assume they were genuinely providing a service back in the day and not bullshitting) to prove thy aren't accurate reports.

But I guarantee you if you took Ray Robinson back then the newspaper reports would be even more hyperbolic; they would be dazzled and probably proclaim the 2nd coming of Jesus.

The newspapers from Robinsons day would be fascinating but they would not tell you much that you did not already know.

The newspapers from Fitzsimmons day would open up a hole new world to you:

Details of his style that you had never thought of before.

Fighters listed on boxrec as 1-1-1 suddenly become fringe contenders.

[Flea Man]

The newspapers from Robinsons day would be fascinating but they would not tell you much that you did not already know.

The newspapers from Fitzsimmons day would open up a hole new world to you:

Details of his style that you had never thought of before.

Fighters listed on boxrec as 1-1-1 suddenly become fringe contenders.

First of all I meant the reporters of Fitzsimmons day being introduced to Robinson.

I know not to take much note of boxrec but I see what you mean. How well-rounded or skilled these 'fringe contenders' where is anyone's guess as we've never seen them have we?

[Boilermaker]

No he didnt he was 167lbs

Dunkhurst put on 55lbs in 3years, which makes him a fat ass. He lost to everyone half decent and there is no evidence he is any good. I know you have the career set of Dunkhurst showing off his amazing ability, we cant see right :lol:

Read Fitzsimmons book that was posted on here a little while ago.

Your description makes Dunkhorst sound like every single modern Super heavyweight today. He wasnt a world champion but he was a decent contender. Certainly a difference between that and a bum.

[OLD FOGEY]

I think you're really underestimating the gap in skill. What have you seen Fitz do better than Ray on film?

Punch. He knocks out a 184 pounder on film.

Take a punch. He takes the punch of a 184 pounder on film.

Stamina. He outlasts a 184 pounder on film and was clearly coming on.

Strength. He pushes around a 184 pounder on film.

Body work. Ability to handle himself inside.

Unfortunately, there is not much film of Fitz, and only the Corbett fight before he was literally middle-aged.

[OLD FOGEY]

Just to be fair, I want to mention some area in which Robinson has it all over Fitz:

HAIR

Robinson's worst hair day still leaves him quite a bit ahead of Fitz.

[janitor]

I know not to take much note of boxrec but I see what you mean. How well-rounded or skilled these 'fringe contenders' where is anyone's guess as we've never seen them have we?

You will never see them.

They were fringe contenders over a huge talent pool, in an era when much was expected from a fighter, and little reward was given unless they made it big time.

I would add that training regimes in this era were brutal compared to those exercised today.

So to answer your questin, I don't know how good they were but I might well preffer to be thrown in aginst the current lot.

[Wu-Gambino]

Punch. He knocks out a 184 pounder on film.

Take a punch. He takes the punch of a 184 pounder on film.

Stamina. He outlasts a 184 pounder on film and was clearly coming on.

Strength. He pushes around a 184 pounder on film.

Body work. Ability to handle himself inside.

Unfortunately, there is not much film of Fitz, and only the Corbett fight before he was literally middle-aged.
I can't see how you can say Fitz takes a better punch because he got hit by a 184 pounder when Ray was never stopped by punches in over 200 fights. And weren't you just bringing up how Fitz was bigger than Ray a second ago anyway?

You can't really say stamina either as Ray consistently showed the ability to last the distance in gruelling fights, all the while staying busy and competitive even in losses.

And body work? really? I don't see that for a second.

What about speed, combination punching, fighting on the outside, footwork, etc.?

[OLD FOGEY]

I can't see how you can say Fitz takes a better punch because he got hit by a 184 pounder when Ray was never stopped by punches in over 200 fights. And weren't you just bringing up how Fitz was bigger than Ray a second ago anyway?

You can't really say stamina either as Ray consistently showed the ability to last the distance in gruelling fights, all the while staying busy and competitive even in losses.

And body work? really? I don't see that for a second.

What about speed, combination punching, fighting on the outside, footwork, etc.?

Size matters. Ray was never hit by anyone remotely close to Corbett, Sharkey, Ruhlin, Maher, Dunkhurst, Jeffries, etc in size, except Maxim, and Maxim was known as a banjo puncher, and still Robinson was stopped in that fight. The fact that he could stand up to generally ordinary punching middleweights does not exactly prove he stands up to the men Fitz stood up against. I consider Fitz's chin the more proven. Sharkey and Maher were considered great punchers in their day.

Another thing about Robinson--somehow he never got into the ring against most of the top punchers of his day--Burley, Zale, Cerdan, Lausse, Carter, Fernandez, etc--He fought the feather fisted Maxim but not Moore.

I give Fitz the edge on stamina. He outlasted the much bigger Corbett, a man who went 61 rounds with Peter Jackson, and at 40 he went 20 rounds to win the lightheavy title from George Gardner.

"And body work? Really? I don't see that for a second?"

Well, the only film we have shows him ko'ing Corbett with a body punch. I see it and more than for a second.

[OLD FOGEY]

I can't see how you can say Fitz takes a better punch because he got hit by a 184 pounder when Ray was never stopped by punches in over 200 fights. And weren't you just bringing up how Fitz was bigger than Ray a second ago anyway?

You can't really say stamina either as Ray consistently showed the ability to last the distance in gruelling fights, all the while staying busy and competitive even in losses.

And body work? really? I don't see that for a second.

What about speed, combination punching, fighting on the outside, footwork, etc.?

You just gave me what you think Robinson does better. Okay, I largely agree. But you never asked me that. You asked me what Fitz did better.

[Boilermaker]

You can't really assume Fitz would do something we've never seen him do before, sorry. At the same time I can't comment on how Robinson would do against Fitz in the latter's era under the latter's rules and regulations, although I imagine the transition would be easier for Ray than vice versea.

Interesting statement.

You really need to read Fitz' boxing manual, as it actually explains his guard. The low guard really is only when fighters are at a distance. When Fitz gets in close he uses body rolls, high guard, head movement, ducking etc. This is hardly making things up, although it is obviously impossible to see on film due to film quality and lack of proper footage.

If Fitz fought Jeffries under modern rules, he would ahve won by tko, so fitz adapting to modern rules, might not be as hard a transition as one owuld think.

[Wu-Gambino]

Size matters. Ray was never hit by anyone remotely close to Corbett, Sharkey, Ruhlin, Maher, Dunkhurst, Jeffries, etc in size, except Maxim, and Maxim was known as a banjo puncher, and still Robinson was stopped in that fight. The fact that he could stand up to generally ordinary punching middleweights does not exactly prove he stands up to the men Fitz stood up against. I consider Fitz's chin the more proven. Sharkey and Maher were considered great punchers in their day.

Another thing about Robinson--somehow he never got into the ring against most of the top punchers of his day--Burley, Zale, Cerdan, Lausse, Carter, Fernandez, etc--He fought the feather fisted Maxim but not Moore.

I give Fitz the edge on stamina. He outlasted the much bigger Corbett, a man who went 61 rounds with Peter Jackson, and at 40 he went 20 rounds to win the lightheavy title from George Gardner.

"And body work? Really? I don't see that for a second?"

Well, the only film we have shows him ko'ing Corbett with a body punch. I see it and more than for a second.

The Maxim stoppage had nothing to do with punching. Carter and Fernandez fights would've come at the tail end of Robinson's career, can't really fault him for not meeting them. Can't comment on why the Zale or Cerdan fights didn't happen. The risk vs. reward for a Lausse or Burley fight wasn't very favorable to Ray so I don't think you can fault him entirely for not fighting every single guy out there at 160 during his career. As it stands Ray did manage to fight and beat Fullmer, Graziano, and LaMotta, all three larger, hard hitting guys.

You're putting too much stock in Fitz taking on heavys in regards to his chin; how and where did the punches he took land? how much damage did he take? Corbett (big, hard hitting heavy there) had Fitz badly hurt and although there's no shame in a smaller man getting dropped by a heavy let's not get carried away with Fitz's durabilty. I've never seen Fitz take the kind of punishment Ray has shown he can withstand. Yeah Fitz took on heavys but he's also been knocked out by some of those heavys; Ray's never been stopped due to punches period.

And saying Fitz's body punching is superior to Ray's simply because of the Corbett fight is unfair. Ray's punching to the body was much more varied and consistent (although there isn't much Fitz footage out). Check out Ray working the body at 0:48, 2:56, or at 3:12 :

SzAj3DAeGcg

[OLD FOGEY]

1. Fullmer, LaMotta, and Graziano were not "large men". They were middleweights. And Fullmer and LaMotta were NOT particularly hard punchers for their weight, off the testimony of opponents and off their records. Graziano might have been, but he was more of a super-welterweight than a big middle, and plenty crude.

2. These films show that Robinson is obviously a brilliant fighter. Perhaps, though, there is a certain misleading factor. Have you ever seen the old movies from the 1940's or so in which an iguana or a baby crocodile appears on screen to be a dinosaur. Without perspective, or with a distorted perspective, they really look gigantic. I think something of the same sort happens with these films. A Robinson, or a Carlos Ortiz, or an Eder Jofre, looks just as big on the screen as Fitz or Corbett. Our mind does not quite process that if you put all these men in the ring together, there would be an immense difference between the heavyweight Corbett and the middleweight Robinson. Corbett would be much taller, broader, and heavier. He weighed 184 pounds. Both Fitz and Robinson, and all their contemporaries such as Nat Fleischer, would have not hesitated to consider Corbett a heavyweight. Put baldly, Corbett was probably about 3 inches taller and about 30 pounds heavier than Robinson. This matters a great deal.

3. Obviously if you have only one prime film of Fitz, and dozens of Robinson, you have a fairly easy time showing more variety in Robinson's punching, and he probably had more variety--I concede that. However, no way Robinson stops Corbett with a body punch. Fitz is in another class as a puncher and a body puncher.

4. I am going to post excerpts from A J Liebling's THE SWEET SCIENCE as he explains all this better than I ever could.

[OLD FOGEY]

A J Leibling--THE SWEET SCIENCE--"Kearns by a Knockout"--ringside coverage of the Maxim-Robinson fight

"The division of boxing into weight classes is based on the premise that if two men are equally talented practitioners of the Sweet Science, then the heavier man has a decided advantage. This is true, of course, only if both men are trained down hard, since a pound of beer is of no use in a boxing match. If the difference amounts to no more than a couple of pounds, it can be offset by a number of factors, including luck, but when it goes up to five or six or seven, it takes a lot of beating. The span between the top limit of one weight class and the next represents the margin that history has shown is almost impossible to overcome. Between middleweight and lightheavyweight, for example, that gap is fifteen pounds."

(My comment--Before the steroid era beginning in the 1980's, in which fighters could change their sizes by the use of supplements--what I would call the natural era, as the size of fighters was set by nature--how many men actually were able to win both the middleweight and the light-heavyweight titles? Only two. Fitzsimmons and Dick Tiger. How many were able to win both the lightheavyweight and heavyweight titles? Only Bob Fitzsimmons. In other words, two-thirds of the century passed after Fitz won the top three titles and no other fighter could win even two of the three.)

"Fighting middleweights, Robinson had always had a superiority over his foes in height and reach, together with equality in weight. Against Maxim he had equality in height and reach but the weight was all against him."

(my comment--Maxim was actually a couple of inches taller)

"The heat was the same for both men. This much is sure, though. Whenever a man weighing a hundred and fifty-seven has to pull and haul against a man weighing a hundred and seventy-three, he has to handle sixteen pounds more than his own weight. The other fellow has to handle sixteen pounds less than his. And when you multiply this by the number of seconds the men struggle during thirty-nine minutes of a bout like this, you get a pretty good idea of why they weigh prizefighters. The multiplication is more than arithmetrical, of course; a man who boxes four rounds is more than four times as tired as if he had boxed one."

"In the eleventh round, Robinson hit Maxim precisely the same kind of looping right to the jaw that had started Turpin on the way out. The blow knocked the light heavy clear across the ring, but he didn't fall, and Robinson's legs, those miracles, apparently couldn't move Ray fast enough to take advantage of the situation. It may have been as good a punch as the one of the year before, but it landed on a man fifteen pounds heavier. Maxim shook his head and went right on fighting."

[Flea Man]

1. Fullmer, LaMotta, and Graziano were not "large men". They were middleweights. And Fullmer and LaMotta were NOT particularly hard punchers for their weight, off the testimony of opponents and off their records. Graziano might have been, but he was more of a super-welterweight than a big middle, and plenty crude.

2. These films show that Robinson is obviously a brilliant fighter. Perhaps, though, there is a certain misleading factor. Have you ever seen the old movies from the 1940's or so in which an iguana or a baby crocodile appears on screen to be a dinosaur. Without perspective, or with a distorted perspective, they really look gigantic. I think something of the same sort happens with these films. A Robinson, or a Carlos Ortiz, or an Eder Jofre, looks just as big on the screen as Fitz or Corbett. Our mind does not quite process that if you put all these men in the ring together, there would be an immense difference between the heavyweight Corbett and the middleweight Robinson. Corbett would be much taller, broader, and heavier. He weighed 184 pounds. Both Fitz and Robinson, and all their contemporaries such as Nat Fleischer, would have not hesitated to consider Corbett a heavyweight. Put baldly, Corbett was probably about 3 inches taller and about 30 pounds heavier than Robinson. This matters a great deal.

3. Obviously if you have only one prime film of Fitz, and dozens of Robinson, you have a fairly easy time showing more variety in Robinson's punching, and he probably had more variety--I concede that. However, no way Robinson stops Corbett with a body punch. Fitz is in another class as a puncher and a body puncher.

4. I am going to post excerpts from A J Liebling's THE SWEET SCIENCE as he explains all this better than I ever could.

You are one pretentious man, do you think everyone apart from you is a retard??????? I know the difference between 5'something Jofre and a HW regardless of time and when I have seen it????

[Wu-Gambino]

1. Fullmer, LaMotta, and Graziano were not "large men". They were middleweights. And Fullmer and LaMotta were NOT particularly hard punchers for their weight, off the testimony of opponents and off their records. Graziano might have been, but he was more of a super-welterweight than a big middle, and plenty crude.

2. These films show that Robinson is obviously a brilliant fighter. Perhaps, though, there is a certain misleading factor. Have you ever seen the old movies from the 1940's or so in which an iguana or a baby crocodile appears on screen to be a dinosaur. Without perspective, or with a distorted perspective, they really look gigantic. I think something of the same sort happens with these films. A Robinson, or a Carlos Ortiz, or an Eder Jofre, looks just as big on the screen as Fitz or Corbett. Our mind does not quite process that if you put all these men in the ring together, there would be an immense difference between the heavyweight Corbett and the middleweight Robinson. Corbett would be much taller, broader, and heavier. He weighed 184 pounds. Both Fitz and Robinson, and all their contemporaries such as Nat Fleischer, would have not hesitated to consider Corbett a heavyweight. Put baldly, Corbett was probably about 3 inches taller and about 30 pounds heavier than Robinson. This matters a great deal.

3. Obviously if you have only one prime film of Fitz, and dozens of Robinson, you have a fairly easy time showing more variety in Robinson's punching, and he probably had more variety--I concede that. However, no way Robinson stops Corbett with a body punch. Fitz is in another class as a puncher and a body puncher.

4. I am going to post excerpts from A J Liebling's THE SWEET SCIENCE as he explains all this better than I ever could.
I said larger (as in larger than Robinson), not large. Fullmer and LaMotta were not one punch knockout artist but they were very formidable guys with heavy, bludgeoning type punches. If Graziano was crude, what do you call Fitz, a fighter who competed in the very beginning stages of gloved fighting where techniques were not as developed as in Robinson's era (and I don’t want anyone to tell me that they were, that’s just ignorant)?

The fact is we can assume all we want about Fitz’s abilities due to a lack of footage but Robinson’s abilities and versatility are there for us to see clearly on film, irrefutably making him more proven. Claiming Fitz is a better body puncher than Ray off a single piece of footage is ridiculous. What if the only piece of footage we had of Duran was of the Barkley fight, and we used the knockdown to claim that he hit harder at middle than Thomas Hearns? And don’t try to present “no way Robinson stops Corbett with a body punch” as a fact when it’s clearly not.

[OLD FOGEY]

You are one pretentious man, do you think everyone apart from you is a retard??????? I know the difference between 5'something Jofre and a HW regardless of time and when I have seen it????


1. "You are one pretentious man"

You noticed.

By the way, I am also arrogant.

2. That post was not directed to you or any other poster. I was just sort of wondering why some would ignore the fact that Robinson failed utterly against Maxim who was only one division up, but also assume to that he could easily handle Corbett, who was two divisions up. The underlying point is I wonder if they would think the same way if they saw the two men in the ring together.

[Flea Man]

1. "You are one pretentious man"

You noticed.

By the way, I am also arrogant.

2. That post was not directed to you or any other poster. I was just sort of wondering why some would ignore the fact that Robinson failed uttertly against Maxim who was only one division up, but also assume to that he could easily handle Corbett, who was two divisions up. The underlying point is I wonder if they would think the same way if they saw the two men in the ring together.

2. Not saying it was directed at me at all. Just speaking for the general human race who are NOT retarded that when you know you are watching a certain type of fighter on film you can tell his dimensions roughly.

Hence they would never get those kind of guys mixed up.

[janitor]

1. "You are one pretentious man"

You noticed.

By the way, I am also arrogant.


Pretentiousnes and arrogance are two qualities that I admire in a man.

Congratulations.

[Flea Man]

Pretentiousnes and arrogance are two qualities that I admire in a man.

Congratulations.

We have no film to prove that he is though. Only reports, written by himself.

[OLD FOGEY]

We have no film to prove that he is though. Only reports, written by himself.\

All ringside reporters will back me up. I am certain of that.

[OLD FOGEY]

Pretentiousnes and arrogance are two qualities that I admire in a man.

Congratulations.

Boards like this would be pretty dull if posters were not pretentious and arrogant.

"I can't be certain, and anyway I'm not sure, and how can we know anything anyway"

would not be a very interesting post.

[OLD FOGEY]

2. Not saying it was directed at me at all. Just speaking for the general human race who are NOT retarded that when you know you are watching a certain type of fighter on film you can tell his dimensions roughly.

Hence they would never get those kind of guys mixed up.

You just accurately accused me of being pretentious and now you are speaking for the "general human race."



Just as an aside--I am here to have fun and I hope to continue having fun, and I hope we can have fun sharing posts.

[Mr Butt]

Just as an aside--I am here to have fun and I hope to continue having fun, and I hope we can have fun sharing posts.


:good

[mcvey]

Well , you got my vote :lol:
I dont see SRR beating Corbett and I didnt vote either way in the Fitz SRR debate.I was just a bit peeved Robinson was so easily dismissed against Fitz.
Ray had a great chin but Fitz had the power to crack it, I rate him exceptionally highly as a p4p puncher.
Corbett at 6' 1in and 188lbs with his fine speed for a big man would be a real handful for Ray,and whilst not a puncher by heavyweight standards, he would bang hard enough to worry Ray.
Bottom line is, Ray was not proven against bigger men ,and his prime was as a Welter.

[Flea Man]

You just accurately accused me of being pretentious and now you are speaking for the "general human race."



Just as an aside--I am here to have fun and I hope to continue having fun, and I hope we can have fun sharing posts.

:lol:

Of course. I didn;t mean it as pretentious as it sounded, I just meant I'm sure a general boxing fan will know what size of a man they are seeing on screen, especially if they're posting on the Classic Forum:good