Naseem Hamed

[toffeejack]

Opinion is very much divided with him especially on the general forum. A lot of Americans don't rate him highly and only remember him for the Barerra fight.

Some say he was an unbeleivalbe talent could have ended up high in the ATG rankings, gone down a legend but lost the desire and the will by the time Barrera beat him, some say he was just an overrated hype job that got exposed as soon as he stepped up to elite class.

Personally I believe the former is true but where do you all think he could have ended up if he had stayed with the Ingles, not let all that fame and fortune go to his head and retained that drive and desire he had at a young age to be the very best?

Also how do you see a 100% Hamed versus a 100% Barrera going?

[The Bang Benang]

Also how do you see a 100% Hamed versus a 100% Barrera going?

If the motivated Naseem Hamed fought Marco Antonio Barrera that night, i still believe Barrera would have won clearly, it would have been a bit closer on the cards possibly and he could/would have hurt Marco a few times if he used his power with more skill, but the thing is, NO MATTER WHAT % Of Naseem Hamed shown up that night, Barrera would have fooled him, he CHANGED his style altogether against Hamed, he would have still managed to take a decision, 115-112, but Hamed would have make it tougher because he would have used more skill instead of relying on power constantly.

[essexboy]

I definately think he was highly talented theres no question about that. He ruined his career for himself similar to Tyson in the US by letting fame get to his head and apparently relying on his skills too much rather than working hard. Unforunately we will always be wondering what might have been, personally I believe he had the talent to become a multi-weight world champ and ATG. Head to head prime for prime I think Hamed gives Barrera a much tougher fight and very probably wins.

[trotter]

What the Americans think is neither here nor there really; they would only be judging him on a couple of fights

He was a ludicrously talented fighter but I suppose with that style, you'll always find someone who's own style works against it

He should have achieved more perhaps but I think he just peaked quite young

[Gaz S]

Very valid and fair assessment from The Bang, but I tend to agree more with Essexboy.
What is easy to forget is most of Hamed's success came very, very early for him. He was still in his early 20's. I believe if his dedication, motivation or whatever you want to call it was maintained, he would have only got better with the more experience he got over the years.
Unfortunately, whilst acquiring that experience he also let things slide in his dedication and discipline for the sport.

If the 2001 version of Naz had maintained the same levels of focus and discipline as the 1995 version, I believe he could have gone on to achieve ATG status. Bear in mind whilst Barrera beat Naz clearly, it wasn't an absolute one sided pasting in which Hamed suffered a beating. And this was a Naz that was so arrogant to the point where he didn't feel the need to prepare 100% for Barrera, just as long as his hair looked ok, his dance moves were cool, etc. A Naz who pretty much had this attitude for a number of years prior to the fight.
If Naz had approached the Barrera fight with the same fire he had for the Robinson fight, but now with 5 or 6 more years of experience in world class opposition, I think the result would have been different.

It's a shame, but it's my personal belief the only thing that stopped Naz from becoming an ATG was Naz himself. A man who dominated and unified (in effect) the featherweight division, but let his ego and arrogance eclipse his discipline.

[Ilesey]

Barerra beats him. I just don't see Hamed beating Barerra, or Morales for that matter.

[BremnerBomber]

A MAB vs Naz trilogy would have been one of the ATG match ups ever, unfortunatly he gave up after that loss, and for some reason it's always remembered as a one sided beat down.....but he only lost by a few points

[The Bang Benang]

It's a shame, but it's my personal belief the only thing that stopped Naz from becoming an ATG was Naz himself. A man who dominated and unified (in effect) the featherweight division, but let his ego and arrogance eclipse his discipline.

Couldnt agree with you more here, he felt Invincable, maybe if he had suffered a loss earlier in his career he would have thought ''i have to prove people that im not what they think, im not a fraud'', but the problem was: He'd already achieved World Status, fame, millions in terms of currency, he had a wife and kids, he didnt need to, he'd ''made it''. We look at guys like Amir Khan for the obvious example, who lost and were ''exposed'' early on but then only gained more hunger from the loss, even Khan had the whole ''Invincable, Unbeaten'' fighter hype around him, but because he suffered a loss so early, it only helped cause he had a point to prove, But when your like Naseem and lose for the first time when your already at the top, why continue when your hearts not in it and you've achieved alot anyway? He could have done alot more though, he was only 27-28 when he retired.

[robpalmer135]

a 100% motivated Naz beats any featherweight in history.

also the big problem with naz was that he should have been a bantamweight at the most. he only went up cos there was no cash in the lower weights.

[El Cepillo]

American perceptions of Naz are pretty skewed. I've found it to be the subject on which they are the most closed minded. "He's a hype job fraud, all he ever did was lose to Barrera" - that kind of thing.

The reality is, Hamed was a very good fighter, a very good champion, and he had a very good career. It could have been better, it could have been worse. It just is what it is.

I think Naz could compete at the elite level. He took a few rounds off Barrera, who was KO'd and beat by much lesser fighters than the Prince.

[NO MAS]

If Naz would have copped MAB he would have KO'd him.... MAB boxed a punch perfect fight on the outside all night long.... a perfect strategy to disarm Naz's power... If Naz boxed MAB 100 times he would lose 100 times IMO...:yep

[brown bomber]

Prime Hamed would have beaten Barerra. He was managed awfully which led to his motivational issues. He peaked in the Robinson fight. Every fight after that was pretty much inferior and he moved up to Featherweight too early.

[kosaros]

Naz would have beat Barrera if they fought in 1996.

[kurt2006]

I think of it in the following way: A lazy ill prepared Naz went a full 12 with MAB. I dread to think what he would have done to MAB if he had prepared properly. How many other boxers at that time could have peed about whilst preparing for the fightr and gone 12?

[TFFP]

Barrera, Marquez, Morales and Pac all beat him. I'd love to claim otherwise but that would seem to be the case IMO.

[BoroBoxing1]

Nas was definetly finished by the time he fought Barerra relied to much on his power, Just luck at his sparring wat he was having for the build up to the fight he was all over the place, if he stayed with the ingles and produced a display of his younger days i think he wud ov stopped Barrera.

[hitman_hatton1]

always had big holes in that defence.

got away with em in the early days cos his reflexes were still tip top.

started declining in his mid 20's and had no fundamentals to fall back on.

i thought barrera was gonna demolish him before they fought. :scaredas:

he didn't demolish him but he certainly schooled him.

[Two Shakes]

Naz was shot by the time he fought Berrera.He was arrogant beyond belief and had not trained or prepared properly.His brothers and the yes men that he had following him around shouting "you da man" had convinced Naz he was unbeatable and didn't have to answer to anyone.
I don't like ******,but had Naz stayed with ****** and Ingle he could of been an ATG.
Like him or not he was a fantastic fighter and almost certainly the hardest punching featherweight in history.If Poison could stop Berrera a fit and motivated Naz would have decapitated him.

[Farmboxer]

Naz was being taught to be a ballet dancer by the same trainer who taught Frietas to become a ballet dancer, it ruined his career. I love to watch Hamed fight, esp. Hamed Vs. Kelly!

[El Cepillo]

always had big holes in that defence.

got away with em in the early days cos his reflexes were still tip top.

started declining in his mid 20's and had no fundamentals to fall back on.

i thought barrera was gonna demolish him before they fought. :scaredas:

he didn't demolish him but he certainly schooled him.

Naz took 4 rounds off him, hardly a schooling.

[Triplesod]

Naz took 4 rounds off him, hardly a schooling.


Yeah. I get a bit bored with this "Barrera school Naz" school of thought.

I dunno if people have just heard that from others and repeated it without first proving it to themselves but I'm sure if they watched the fight again, objectively, they wouldn't come away with that conclusion.

Marco was certainly the better man on the night but he never knocked Nas down (legally) and finally came away with a UD but some rounds easily went to Nas and there are a couple that you could actually debate.

EDIT: How the bleedin' 'ell did you manage to rack up so many posts within a year?? If only Naz had an ounce of your dedication!;-)

[leighton]

Naz had all the flashy shots and switch hitting at the best. He was great at what he did not the greatest but was great and he sell a fight. Britian has never seen anyone like Naz who was more of a showman than Eubank and he just put boxing in the UK back on the map when he was at his peak. Yes he hadn't got the heart to be a all time great but he is 1 of the British all time greats not my number 1 as that has to be Calzaghe for me but thats another debat.
Naz fell out of love with boxing after the defeat which was a shame as he could of been paired with a lot of top class fighters. I would of loved to see Naz fight Scott Harrison back then that would of been a battle of Britian.

[theboy_racer]

Barrera, Marquez, Morales and Pac all beat him. I'd love to claim otherwise but that would seem to be the case IMO.

Have to disagree

A peak Hamed could beat and probabaly KO them all.

[HeavyT]

Have to disagree

A peak Hamed could beat and probabaly KO them all.

He'd at least have a great chance, I'd say

[hitman_hatton1]

Naz took 4 rounds off him, hardly a schooling.

naz took 3 rds.

4 at a push and only cos of that deduction in the 12th.

barrera was bouncing em off his nugget all night. :patsch

he was well beaten despite nicking a few rds.

[El Cepillo]

naz took 3 rds.

4 at a push and only cos of that deduction in the 12th.

barrera was bouncing em off his nugget all night. :patsch

he was well beaten despite nicking a few rds.

Doesn't matter how you dress it up. Barrera/Hamed wasn't a schooling.

A schooling is Lacy/Calzaghe or Pavlik/Hopkins.

Just look at the difference in the scores. :roll:

[KCD]

Naseem Hamed will go down as one of the greatest fighter Britain has ever produced, i thought he was a twat though towards the end, an arrogant gobshite who started listening to the wrong people.

As for prime v prime i think of recent years Barrera, Morales, Pacquaio and Juan Manuel Marquez all beat him.

[LB3000]

Hamed done a interview for BBC Sportsweek. You can hear the interview on the BBC site. Interview starts just past the 42min mark.

[hitman_hatton1]

Hamed done a interview for BBC Sportsweek. You can hear the interview on the BBC site. Interview starts just past the 42min mark.

is it this weeks one?

the one with jessica ennis, phillips idowu and tim henmen being interviewed as well. :huh

[hitman_hatton1]

here's an article about the interview.

so hand problems brought about his retirement.

shame he had to wait 7 yrs to tell us. :roll:

By Clive Bernath: Even though he never officially retired I always felt I knew the real reason Naseem Hamed never fought again after out-pointing Spaniard Manuel Calvo in May, 2002.

On Sunday my suspicions were finally proved correct when Naz revealed to BBC Radio 5’s Live Sports week programme that damaged hands forced him stop practising the sport he loved.

"I had hand trouble and could not take the power of my punch," Hamed BBC 5 Live.

"I needed cortisone injections to take away the pain when I fought, then after every fight the gloves would be whipped off and my hands would be as big as balloons.



"It was getting ridiculous and you can’t go on with no ammunition. I was one of the hardest punchers ever known but if the hands are quite brittle and you do damage, then it’s hard to carry on."

There were a number of reasons why my suspicions were aroused concerning Hamed’s lack of activity after the win over Calvo, and it was not just because he stunk out the London Arena with arguably the worst performance of his 37 fight career. No, I vividly remember being ringside that particular night on May 18, 2002 and rather conveniently overheard Hamed confide to promoter Barry Hearn that ‘my hands are f**ked’. As Hamed walked down the steps from the ring he whispered into Hearn’s ear, ‘my hands are f**ked, there’s just nothing there’.

It all makes perfect sense when you think about it because although Hamed was gifted with lightening fast reflexes, especially in the early days, he possessed even greater fire power in those fists he aptly named ‘Rocket Launchers’. Think about it? 31 ko’s from 37 fights. At just 5ft 4 and 9st Hamed hit harder than some world class welterweights. In fact he probably knocked out more fighters with a single shot than any other British boxer so its no wonder those fists ended up being damaged beyond repair.

As mentioned earlier Hamed has never officially retired but after piling on the weight, settling more and more into family life and the fact he has now come clean about his damaged hands I think we can safely assume he will never fight again.

Naseem Hamed may not have been the most popular British boxer in history but one could argue that pound for pound he was one of the hardest hitters.

[NO MAS]

here's an article about the interview.

so hand problems brought about his retirement.

shame he had to wait 7 yrs to tell us. :roll:

By Clive Bernath: Even though he never officially retired I always felt I knew the real reason Naseem Hamed never fought again after out-pointing Spaniard Manuel Calvo in May, 2002.

On Sunday my suspicions were finally proved correct when Naz revealed to BBC Radio 5’s Live Sports week programme that damaged hands forced him stop practising the sport he loved.

"I had hand trouble and could not take the power of my punch," Hamed BBC 5 Live.

"I needed cortisone injections to take away the pain when I fought, then after every fight the gloves would be whipped off and my hands would be as big as balloons.



"It was getting ridiculous and you can’t go on with no ammunition. I was one of the hardest punchers ever known but if the hands are quite brittle and you do damage, then it’s hard to carry on."

There were a number of reasons why my suspicions were aroused concerning Hamed’s lack of activity after the win over Calvo, and it was not just because he stunk out the London Arena with arguably the worst performance of his 37 fight career. No, I vividly remember being ringside that particular night on May 18, 2002 and rather conveniently overheard Hamed confide to promoter Barry Hearn that ‘my hands are f**ked’. As Hamed walked down the steps from the ring he whispered into Hearn’s ear, ‘my hands are f**ked, there’s just nothing there’.

It all makes perfect sense when you think about it because although Hamed was gifted with lightening fast reflexes, especially in the early days, he possessed even greater fire power in those fists he aptly named ‘Rocket Launchers’. Think about it? 31 ko’s from 37 fights. At just 5ft 4 and 9st Hamed hit harder than some world class welterweights. In fact he probably knocked out more fighters with a single shot than any other British boxer so its no wonder those fists ended up being damaged beyond repair.

As mentioned earlier Hamed has never officially retired but after piling on the weight, settling more and more into family life and the fact he has now come clean about his damaged hands I think we can safely assume he will never fight again.

Naseem Hamed may not have been the most popular British boxer in history but one could argue that pound for pound he was one of the hardest hitters.

100% spot on, he had a dig like a kick off a mule...hand damage was always going to be an issue with his power...:yep

[LB3000]

is it this weeks one?

the one with jessica ennis, phillips idowu and tim henmen being interviewed as well. :huh Yep, thats the one.

[gasman]

Opinion is very much divided with him especially on the general forum. A lot of Americans don't rate him highly and only remember him for the Barerra fight.

Some say he was an unbeleivalbe talent could have ended up high in the ATG rankings, gone down a legend but lost the desire and the will by the time Barrera beat him, some say he was just an overrated hype job that got exposed as soon as he stepped up to elite class.

Personally I believe the former is true but where do you all think he could have ended up if he had stayed with the Ingles, not let all that fame and fortune go to his head and retained that drive and desire he had at a young age to be the very best?

Also how do you see a 100% Hamed versus a 100% Barrera going?

It doesnt matter Hamed was never beating Barrera, he was lucky to beat Kelly before that. Barrera absolutely schooled Hamed when they fought. I know he didn't train well etc, but even if he had prepared better Barrera would have beat him convincingly.

I think people getting a bit carried away with Hamed, he was flashy and I enjoyed watching his earlier fights but was over-hyped and ultimately got found out.

[hitman_hatton1]

It doesnt matter Hamed was never beating Barrera, he was lucky to beat Kelly before that. Barrera absolutely schooled Hamed when they fought. I know he didn't train well etc, but even if he had prepared better Barrera would have beat him convincingly.

I think people getting a bit carried away with Hamed, he was flashy and I enjoyed watching his earlier fights but was over-hyped and ultimately got found out.

he bottomed out around 98.

he didn't progress after that.

he started becoming easier to hit and more flat footed.

i always thought barrera and morales would beat him fairly soundly.

sadly he didn't stick around long enough for morales. :-(

[felix]

Hamed done a interview for BBC Sportsweek. You can hear the interview on the BBC site. Interview starts just past the 42min mark.

yh 42min.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[theboy_racer]

As for prime v prime i think of recent years Barrera, Morales, Pacquaio and Juan Manuel Marquez all beat him.

:patsch:nut

[Farmboxer]

If you haven't seen it, you must watch Hamed Vs. Kelly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[p.Townend]

Hamed was a great fighter.He was poor against Barrera though.He had looked to be on the slide for a few fights.He just seemed to lose intrest,he was ready to retire long before he fought Marco.

[brown bomber]

Hamed was certainly the hardest hitting British fighter I've ever seen. He was consistantly devastating. His use of angles and timing also contibuted to his many knockouts but he was a bit of a freak punching power wise. Bit like Alexander and jackson he didn't even have to try to get the Ko it just came.

[gasman]

Hamed was certainly the hardest hitting British fighter I've ever seen. He was consistantly devastating. His use of angles and timing also contibuted to his many knockouts but he was a bit of a freak punching power wise. Bit like Alexander and jackson he didn't even have to try to get the Ko it just came.

I agree with that. That is why Hamed great to watch.

[toffeejack]

Hamed was certainly the hardest hitting British fighter I've ever seen. He was consistantly devastating. His use of angles and timing also contibuted to his many knockouts but he was a bit of a freak punching power wise. Bit like Alexander and jackson he didn't even have to try to get the Ko it just came.

Jeff, how do you think he would fare against Barrera, Paquiao, Morales and Marquez prime for prime?

[El Cepillo]

It doesnt matter Hamed was never beating Barrera, he was lucky to beat Kelly before that. Barrera absolutely schooled Hamed when they fought. I know he didn't train well etc, but even if he had prepared better Barrera would have beat him convincingly.

I think people getting a bit carried away with Hamed, he was flashy and I enjoyed watching his earlier fights but was over-hyped and ultimately got found out.

No. He didn't. Dropping 4 rounds to Hamed doesn't equate to a "an absolute schooling". A schooling is Calzaghe/Lacy or Pavlik/Hopkins, where the opponent is lucky to win one minute of one round.

Hamed/Barrera was a clear and comfortable win for Barrera, nothing more than that. I don't know why people feel the need to jump on the "Barrera schooled Hamed" bandwagon that was started by the Americans. :roll:

[gasman]

No. He didn't. Dropping 4 rounds to Hamed doesn't equate to a "an absolute schooling". A schooling is Calzaghe/Lacy or Pavlik/Hopkins, where the opponent is lucky to win one minute of one round.

Hamed/Barrera was a clear and comfortable win for Barrera, nothing more than that. I don't know why people feel the need to jump on the "Barrera schooled Hamed" bandwagon that was started by the Americans. :roll:

That fight wasnt even close, you can call it a clear and comfortable win, no problem with me. But, he stepped into the ring with an elite fighter and got schooled, my opinion. It is clear from reading your posts that you are a big Hamed fan, I noticed on the thread in the general forum that this was your saddest boxing experience. Although I still wanted Hamed to win, I didnt feel too bad about it in the end, as he lost to a truly elite fighter and towards the end I didnt like the Hamed carried himself.

[brown bomber]

Jeff, how do you think he would fare against Barrera, Paquiao, Morales and Marquez prime for prime?

OK something non-Calzaghe, excellent. I feel Hameds prime was in 1995- the Robinson, Liendo, Angeles and Polo-Perez fights saw an astonishing blend of power and speed that made him seem frankly unbeatable. It was only when he noticably slowed down that he began to get tagged and this started against Medina.

Had a prime Hamed fought a prime Barrera we would have seen a similar fight to the one that took place only Hamed would not have been found with such regularity. He would have been harder to nail and the weeble moments that seemed to define that match up would have been missing. Prime Barrera was the circumspect surgeon not the windmill. Had Hamed fought the Windmill he would have KO'd Barrera. Could Hamed have had enough success to sway the judges in his favour or found the KO punch versus prime Barrera? I think so. He was incredible. His punch picking was amazing and i think that while it would intially be nip and tuck eventually Hamed would have made barrera come to him and when he did it Barrera's defence would have been exposed.

Prime Morales? Morales represents a different sent of questions to Barrera- his physical dimensions would have meant that Hamed would have constantly been on the end of his stinging salvo's of shots. His right hand was a KO punch and he had a canny knack of finding the fight ender even if it meant changing direction mid punch. He also had a iron chin. He would have been a real handful. Think Medina but more punishing and harder hitting. Hamed Morales would have been a tough fight as I feel Morales simply would not have allowed him to settle into a rythm easily. I could see Hamed really struggling here- even in his prime. For me its 50-50 but for the sake of British pride I go for Hamed to steal a tight one on points. I wouldn't fancy him for the stoppage.

Prime Marquez?

Marquez has had a very choppy career, occasionally brilliant- occasionally unremarkable. What I will say is that he's bloomed in more recent times but his tidy style is the perfect foil for Pac... would it be the solution to the Hamed puzzle? I don't think so. He like Barrera is very cautious in his approach- he seems to open up only when he feels he has to and Hamed would have been able to pick and choose when he was going to fire. I think that prime Hamed would have had the fire power to hurt him badly and would not have been there to be hit afterwards. I'd take Hamed o inflict a stoppage on Marquez in about 7 rounds.

Prime Pac???

Well Prime Pac appears to be a light welterweight- a place where his speed and power seem in perfect form against the slower opposition. That said he's always had a fair punch but that Barrera, Marquez and Morales were able to take his punches for the full 12 rounds spells that he didn't hit quite so violently down at 9st. His defence is a mess. He was always open to counters and Hamed would have found him I feel. He would have made Hamed work very hard but I think perhaps Hamed would have stoped him and early. It would have been dangerous but a 9st Pac is not the fighter he is at 10st.

[toffeejack]

OK something non-Calzaghe, excellent. I feel Hameds prime was in 1995- the Robinson, Liendo, Angeles and Polo-Perez fights saw an astonishing blend of power and speed that made him seem frankly unbeatable. It was only when he noticably slowed down that he began to get tagged and this started against Medina.

Had a prime Hamed fought a prime Barrera we would have seen a similar fight to the one that took place only Hamed would not have been found with such regularity. He would have been harder to nail and the weeble moments that seemed to define that match up would have been missing. Prime Barrera was the circumspect surgeon not the windmill. Had Hamed fought the Windmill he would have KO'd Barrera. Could Hamed have had enough success to sway the judges in his favour or found the KO punch versus prime Barrera? I think so. He was incredible. His punch picking was amazing and i think that while it would intially be nip and tuck eventually Hamed would have made barrera come to him and when he did it Barrera's defence would have been exposed.

Prime Morales? Morales represents a different sent of questions to Barrera- his physical dimensions would have meant that Hamed would have constantly been on the end of his stinging salvo's of shots. His right hand was a KO punch and he had a canny knack of finding the fight ender even if it meant changing direction mid punch. He also had a iron chin. He would have been a real handful. Think Medina but more punishing and harder hitting. Hamed Morales would have been a tough fight as I feel Morales simply would not have allowed him to settle into a rythm easily. I could see Hamed really struggling here- even in his prime. For me its 50-50 but for the sake of British pride I go for Hamed to steal a tight one on points. I wouldn't fancy him for the stoppage.

Prime Marquez?

Marquez has had a very choppy career, occasionally brilliant- occasionally unremarkable. What I will say is that he's bloomed in more recent times but his tidy style is the perfect foil for Pac... would it be the solution to the Hamed puzzle? I don't think so. He like Barrera is very cautious in his approach- he seems to open up only when he feels he has to and Hamed would have been able to pick and choose when he was going to fire. I think that prime Hamed would have had the fire power to hurt him badly and would not have been there to be hit afterwards. I'd take Hamed o inflict a stoppage on Marquez in about 7 rounds.

Prime Pac???

Well Prime Pac appears to be a light welterweight- a place where his speed and power seem in perfect form against the slower opposition. That said he's always had a fair punch but that Barrera, Marquez and Morales were able to take his punches for the full 12 rounds spells that he didn't hit quite so violently down at 9st. His defence is a mess. He was always open to counters and Hamed would have found him I feel. He would have made Hamed work very hard but I think perhaps Hamed would have stoped him and early. It would have been dangerous but a 9st Pac is not the fighter he is at 10st.

I guess I must come across as a deluded Calzaghe fan boy :lol:

I was into boxing a long time before he came along. Naz is in my top 3 favorite fighters ever I used to love watching him. Nice analysis though mate I wish we could have seen Naz go head to head with them in his prime.

[sugarsean]

No. He didn't. Dropping 4 rounds to Hamed doesn't equate to a "an absolute schooling". A schooling is Calzaghe/Lacy or Pavlik/Hopkins, where the opponent is lucky to win one minute of one round.

Hamed/Barrera was a clear and comfortable win for Barrera, nothing more than that. I don't know why people feel the need to jump on the "Barrera schooled Hamed" bandwagon that was started by the Americans. :roll:

the only rounds hamed won were because of Barrera's low workrate not because of hamed outboxing or outfighting but because of a slightly higher workrate , but Barrera easily won that fight Hamed could'nt do anything with Barrera anytime Hamed tryed something Barrera had an answer for and for those that say Hamed did'nt take a beating that a valid point because the fight was mainly a boxing match but if you look at the 11th and 12th rounds in paticularly Barrera was kicking his ass. Naz was totally outclased and out fought and anyone that thinks different is blind.

{just so you know I don't think Barrera beat a peak Naz, for me Naz was on the slide from 94 onwards, but at the end of the day in the fight that they fought Naz got his ass whupped , and Barrera deserves to be recognised as the better fighter, I bet Naz now wished that he had been a bit nicer to Brendan Ingle}

[El Cepillo]

That fight wasnt even close, you can call it a clear and comfortable win, no problem with me. But, he stepped into the ring with an elite fighter and got schooled, my opinion. It is clear from reading your posts that you are a big Hamed fan, I noticed on the thread in the general forum that this was your saddest boxing experience. Although I still wanted Hamed to win, I didnt feel too bad about it in the end, as he lost to a truly elite fighter and towards the end I didnt like the Hamed carried himself.

Yeah, I'm a big Hamed fan, but if he got schooled by Barrera, I would just say "he got schooled by Barrera".

Like I said, a schooling, to me, is a fight where one guy struggles to take a round, not one where he takes four!

Lacy-Calzaghe, Hopkins-Trinidad, Hopkins-Pavlik, Winky-Trinidad....all good examples of a schooling.

Hamed-Barrera is more a Calzaghe-Kessler, or at worst a Khan-Kotelnik - would you describe those fights schoolings as well?

It was a sad moment for me, I wouldn't watch the fight again, not because Hamed lost, but because it brought about the end of his career. I always felt Hamed could perform at the elite level, sure he would have lost a few, but he would have won some as well. :good

[El Cepillo]

the only rounds hamed won were because of Barrera's low workrate not because of hamed outboxing or outfighting but because of a slightly higher workrate , but Barrera easily won that fight Hamed could'nt do anything with Barrera anytime Hamed tryed something Barrera had an answer for and for those that say Hamed did'nt take a beating that a valid point because the fight was mainly a boxing match but if you look at the 11th and 12th rounds in paticularly Barrera was kicking his ass. Naz was totally outclased and out fought and anyone that thinks different is blind.

{just so you know I don't think Barrera beat a peak Naz, for me Naz was on the slide from 94 onwards, but at the end of the day in the fight that they fought Naz got his ass whupped , and Barrera deserves to be recognised as the better fighter, I bet Naz now wished that he had been a bit nicer to Brendan Ingle}

Schoolings:

Winky-Trinidad: 117-120, 108-119, 108-119.

Hopkins-Pavlik: 117-109, 119-106, 118-108.

Calzaghe-Lacy: 119-105, 119-107, 119-107.

Not a Schooling:

Hamed-Barrera: 111-116, 112-115, 112-115.

[gasman]

Yeah, I'm a big Hamed fan, but if he got schooled by Barrera, I would just say "he got schooled by Barrera".

Like I said, a schooling, to me, is a fight where one guy struggles to take a round, not one where he takes four!

Lacy-Calzaghe, Hopkins-Trinidad, Hopkins-Pavlik, Winky-Trinidad....all good examples of a schooling.

Hamed-Barrera is more a Calzaghe-Kessler, or at worst a Khan-Kotelnik - would you describe those fights schoolings as well?

It was a sad moment for me, I wouldn't watch the fight again, not because Hamed lost, but because it brought about the end of his career. I always felt Hamed could perform at the elite level, sure he would have lost a few, but he would have won some as well. :good

I will tell you what, I am going to re-watch that fight now and I will get back to you, but my abiding memory of that fight was Hamed was completely dominated and out of his depth aka schooled. Calzaghe didnt school Kessler and Khan didnt school Kotelnik.

[El Cepillo]

I will tell you what, I am going to re-watch that fight now and I will get back to you, but my abiding memory of that fight was Hamed was completely dominated and out of his depth aka schooled. Calzaghe didnt school Kessler and Khan didnt school Kotelnik.

How can you justify calling Hamed-Barrera a "schooling", if you don't think Khan-Kotelinik was?

Just to refresh your memory, the Khan-Kotelnik cards were 120-108, 118-111 (twice)

Hamed-Barrera was 111-116, 112-115 (twice)

Your definition of a schooling seems very inconsistent.

I'm not trying to be an arse, btw, just happens when I talk about certain subjects :good

[DDA365]

It was a clear victory rather than a schooling imo, although is there really set definitions of these things?

[sugarsean]

Schoolings:

Winky-Trinidad: 117-120, 108-119, 108-119.

Hopkins-Pavlik: 117-109, 119-106, 118-108.

Calzaghe-Lacy: 119-105, 119-107, 119-107.

Not a Schooling:

Hamed-Barrera: 111-116, 112-115, 112-115.

listen I watched that fight 2 nights ago and let me tell you that was no 112 - 115 fight it was more like 9 Rds to 3 Rds and as I said before the only reason Hamed would of won them rounds was because of Barrera's inactivity not because of Hamed's offence and you can't tell me he did'nt give a beating to Naz in the last 2 rounds especially round 12, and this is coming from a Hamed fan {as a fighter and showman , not as a person because he was horrible} never mind the false scores he got humilated and dominated.

[gasman]

How can you justify calling Hamed-Barrera a "schooling", if you don't think Khan-Kotelinik was?

Just to refresh your memory, the Khan-Kotelnik cards were 120-108, 118-111 (twice)

Hamed-Barrera was 111-116, 112-115 (twice)

Your definition of a schooling seems very inconsistent.

I'm not trying to be an arse, btw, just happens when I talk about certain subjects :good

Man, don't talk nonsense, khan just went in and out all night with Kotelnk, he was quicker and won convincingly but do you think he lost 120-108?? We all know about the scoring in some of these fights and how fucked up it is. If you want to talk more about that scoring, start another thread and we can take it there.

Back on our little discussion on the Hamed-Barrera fight. I just re-watched it.

Firstly, a bit of context. 28 out of 30 boxing writers picked Hamed to win beforehand. Hamed was a 3 1/2 - 1 favourite by the bookies. Barrera was a BIG underdog going into this.

After the first 6 rounds, Hamed was losing by 4-2 easy (Hamed clearly won round 2 and possibly round 3 due to Barrera inactivity more than anything). After 12 rounds, Hamed had only won the 10th. The 12th round was only a draw because Barrera was deducted a point.

Hence, Hamed won 3 rounds, Barrera won 8 rounds and 1 round was even*

*Barrera actually totally dominated the 12th, it was his best round, he threw landed 33 out of 66, Hamed landed 7 out of 20.

Now onto, the disputed term of 'schooling'. Did Hamed get schooled in this fight? I have to say that he did get schooled, emphatically so. He was totally outboxed.

Hamed, for most of the fight threw single shots, that is the style that Hamed improvised all through his career. It worked because of his speed and power. But, he was in with an elite fighter in Barrera. Hamed's single shot style was exposed by Barrera's superior boxing intellect, quick footwork and brilliant array of shots - not just his hallmark left hooks.

A theme for the entire fight was for Barrera to simply wait for Hamed to lunge forward with his single shots and then to quickly avoid them by taking a step back, invariably Hamed was off-balance when he missed, thus, Barrera easily picked him off with devastating combos. Although Barrera scored heavily all night with this effective counter punching, he also showcased his full arsenal of shots.

Barrera ensured that he added effective counter punching by taking the initiative himself with stinging accurate jabs, combos to the body and head. This was effective because they were quick and accurate shots and Barrera had such great footwork, he just took a quick step forward to land his shots and he danced out again or to the left. When he was against the ropes or in the corner he evaded Hamed by ducking his shots and connecting with great combos to the body and then quickly stepped away from the ropes. The only rounds that Barerra lost were because he did not do enough work, rather than Hamed really effectively imposing his style on Barrera.

There was very little inside fighting, but when it did occur it was very telling indeed. I recall in round 6, Barrera and Hamed were holding each other and Hamed partly-landed a sneaky blow to the back of Barerra's head. Barrera immediately responded by shrugging off Hamed and hitting him with a clean hook to the head and followed that with a knowing smile and nod to Hamed.
Similar, superior inside fighting by Barrera was evident in rounds 9 and 11.

Overall, Hamed relied on taking out Barrera with a single shot. Against elite fighters like Barrera you cannot expect to just walk in there and hope to KO a guy of that quality with single shots. There has got to be a plan B. In this fight there was NO plan B. And, Barrera easily dealt with anything that Hamed threw at him, both on the outside and inside. Hamed did actually land a big power shot in the 10th but it simply didnt faze Barrera.

Barrera tagged Hamed all night with powerful counter combos to the head and body and outboxed Hamed with jabs and combos. His footwork, timing and boxing intellect ensuring that he easily dealt with Hamed. Alas, Hamad got took to school. Thank you.:smoke

[sugarsean]

Man, don't talk nonsense, khan just went in and out all night with Kotelnk, he was quicker and won convincingly but do you think he lost 120-108?? We all know about the scoring in some of these fights and how fucked up it is. If you want to talk more about that scoring, start another thread and we can take it there.

Back on our little discussion on the Hamed-Barrera fight. I just re-watched it.

Firstly, a bit of context. 28 out of 30 boxing writers picked Hamed to win beforehand. Hamed was a 3 1/2 - 1 favourite by the bookies. Barrera was a BIG underdog going into this.

After the first 6 rounds, Hamed was losing by 4-2 easy (Hamed clearly won round 2 and possibly round 3 due to Barrera inactivity more than anything). After 12 rounds, Hamed had only won the 10th. The 12th round was only a draw because Barrera was deducted a point.

Hence, Hamed won 3 rounds, Barrera won 8 rounds and 1 round was even*

*Barrera actually totally dominated the 12th, it was his best round, he threw landed 33 out of 66, Hamed landed 7 out of 20.

Now onto, the disputed term of 'schooling'. Did Hamed get schooled in this fight? I have to say that he did get schooled, emphatically so. He was totally outboxed.

Hamed, for most of the fight threw single shots, that is the style that Hamed improvised all through his career. It worked because of his speed and power. But, he was in with an elite fighter in Barrera. Hamed's single shot style was exposed by Barrera's superior boxing intellect, quick footwork and brilliant array of shots - not just his hallmark left hooks.

A theme for the entire fight was for Barrera to simply wait for Hamed to lunge forward with his single shots and then to quickly avoid them by taking a step back, invariably Hamed was off-balance when he missed, thus, Barrera easily picked him off with devastating combos. Although Barrera scored heavily all night with this effective counter punching, he also showcased his full arsenal of shots.

Barrera ensured that he added effective counter punching by taking the initiative himself with stinging accurate jabs, combos to the body and head. This was effective because they were quick and accurate shots and Barrera had such great footwork, he just took a quick step forward to land his shots and he danced out again or to the left. When he was against the ropes or in the corner he evaded Hamed by ducking his shots and connecting with great combos to the body and then quickly stepped away from the ropes. The only rounds that Barerra lost were because he did not do enough work, rather than Hamed really effectively imposing his style on Barrera.

There was very little inside fighting, but when it did occur it was very telling indeed. I recall in round 6, Barrera and Hamed were holding each other and Hamed partly-landed a sneaky blow to the back of Barerra's head. Barrera immediately responded by shrugging off Hamed and hitting him with a clean hook to the head and followed that with a knowing smile and nod to Hamed.
Similar, superior inside fighting by Barrera was evident in rounds 9 and 11.

Overall, Hamed relied on taking out Barrera with a single shot. Against elite fighters like Barrera you cannot expect to just walk in there and hope to KO a guy of that quality with single shots. There has got to be a plan B. In this fight there was NO plan B. And, Barrera easily dealt with anything that Hamed threw at him, both on the outside and inside. Hamed did actually land a big power shot in the 10th but it simply didnt faze Barrera.

Barrera tagged Hamed all night with powerful counter combos to the head and body and outboxed Hamed with jabs and combos. His footwork, timing and boxing intellect ensuring that he easily dealt with Hamed. Alas, Hamad got took to school. Thank you.:smoke

everything he said is the truth, Hamed did get humiliated :deal

[hitman_hatton1]

listen I watched that fight 2 nights ago and let me tell you that was no 112 - 115 fight it was more like 9 Rds to 3 Rds and as I said before the only reason Hamed would of won them rounds was because of Barrera's inactivity not because of Hamed's offence and you can't tell me he did'nt give a beating to Naz in the last 2 rounds especially round 12, and this is coming from a Hamed fan {as a fighter and showman , not as a person because he was horrible} never mind the false scores he got humilated and dominated.

yeah he was well beaten.

naz just about won 2 of his rds as well.

rd 10 was about his only dominant rd.

even rd 7 was debateable cos barrera tagged him with some good uns. :bbb

last 2 rds when barrera put the pressure on naz was reduced to running. :yep

[El Cepillo]

It was a clear victory rather than a schooling imo, although is there really set definitions of these things?

No, but there is a accepted body of opinion that regards fights like Lacy/Calzaghe, Pavlik/Hopkins, Trinidad/Wright as "schoolings".

To lump Hamed/Barrera in with those fights, is just retarded, IMO.

[El Cepillo]

Man, don't talk nonsense, khan just went in and out all night with Kotelnk, he was quicker and won convincingly but do you think he lost 120-108?? We all know about the scoring in some of these fights and how fucked up it is. If you want to talk more about that scoring, start another thread and we can take it there.

Back on our little discussion on the Hamed-Barrera fight. I just re-watched it.

Firstly, a bit of context. 28 out of 30 boxing writers picked Hamed to win beforehand. Hamed was a 3 1/2 - 1 favourite by the bookies. Barrera was a BIG underdog going into this.

After the first 6 rounds, Hamed was losing by 4-2 easy (Hamed clearly won round 2 and possibly round 3 due to Barrera inactivity more than anything). After 12 rounds, Hamed had only won the 10th. The 12th round was only a draw because Barrera was deducted a point.

Hence, Hamed won 3 rounds, Barrera won 8 rounds and 1 round was even*

*Barrera actually totally dominated the 12th, it was his best round, he threw landed 33 out of 66, Hamed landed 7 out of 20.

Now onto, the disputed term of 'schooling'. Did Hamed get schooled in this fight? I have to say that he did get schooled, emphatically so. He was totally outboxed.

Hamed, for most of the fight threw single shots, that is the style that Hamed improvised all through his career. It worked because of his speed and power. But, he was in with an elite fighter in Barrera. Hamed's single shot style was exposed by Barrera's superior boxing intellect, quick footwork and brilliant array of shots - not just his hallmark left hooks.

A theme for the entire fight was for Barrera to simply wait for Hamed to lunge forward with his single shots and then to quickly avoid them by taking a step back, invariably Hamed was off-balance when he missed, thus, Barrera easily picked him off with devastating combos. Although Barrera scored heavily all night with this effective counter punching, he also showcased his full arsenal of shots.

Barrera ensured that he added effective counter punching by taking the initiative himself with stinging accurate jabs, combos to the body and head. This was effective because they were quick and accurate shots and Barrera had such great footwork, he just took a quick step forward to land his shots and he danced out again or to the left. When he was against the ropes or in the corner he evaded Hamed by ducking his shots and connecting with great combos to the body and then quickly stepped away from the ropes. The only rounds that Barerra lost were because he did not do enough work, rather than Hamed really effectively imposing his style on Barrera.

There was very little inside fighting, but when it did occur it was very telling indeed. I recall in round 6, Barrera and Hamed were holding each other and Hamed partly-landed a sneaky blow to the back of Barerra's head. Barrera immediately responded by shrugging off Hamed and hitting him with a clean hook to the head and followed that with a knowing smile and nod to Hamed.
Similar, superior inside fighting by Barrera was evident in rounds 9 and 11.

Overall, Hamed relied on taking out Barrera with a single shot. Against elite fighters like Barrera you cannot expect to just walk in there and hope to KO a guy of that quality with single shots. There has got to be a plan B. In this fight there was NO plan B. And, Barrera easily dealt with anything that Hamed threw at him, both on the outside and inside. Hamed did actually land a big power shot in the 10th but it simply didnt faze Barrera.

Barrera tagged Hamed all night with powerful counter combos to the head and body and outboxed Hamed with jabs and combos. His footwork, timing and boxing intellect ensuring that he easily dealt with Hamed. Alas, Hamad got took to school. Thank you.:smoke

Being in there with a prime version of an ATG, getting comfortably beaten and outclassed is one thing, getting schooled is a different thing entirely, IMO. Fighters who are "being taken to school", don't generally win four rounds.

I think describing Hamed/Barrera as a schooling is a detriment to legitimate schooling's like Pavlik/Hopkins or Calzaghe/Lacy, where the opponent struggles to win one minute of one round. Fights in which the opponent is so inept and clueless that it becomes entirely un-competitive.

Did you honestly watch Lacy/Calzaghe or Hopkins/Pavlik and think 'any minute now, Lacy is going to land one clean shot and KO Joe!', or 'If Pavlik just ups his work rate and knocks B-Hop out of his rhythm, this could become competitive'.

I sincrely doubt that on the night, during the fight, anyone was ruling Hamed out. Hamed was never more than a few rounds down. The gap between the two fighters was never insurmountable.

There was always the chance that one of Hamed's shots would have landed clean and KO'd Barrera. Or that Barrera would take his foot off the gas and Hamed would capitalise.

I don't think Barrera's ingenious masterplan of circling left all night long, should be considered in the same category as the totally dominant boxing masterclass that Hopkins gave Pavlik, or the embarassing beat-down Calzaghe bestowed upon Lacy.

[gasman]

Being in there with a prime version of an ATG, getting comfortably beaten and outclassed is one thing, getting schooled is a different thing entirely, IMO. Fighters who are "being taken to school", don't generally win four rounds.

I think describing Hamed/Barrera as a schooling is a detriment to legitimate schooling's like Pavlik/Hopkins or Calzaghe/Lacy, where the opponent struggles to win one minute of one round. Fights in which the opponent is so inept and clueless that it becomes entirely un-competitive.

Did you honestly watch Lacy/Calzaghe or Hopkins/Pavlik and think 'any minute now, Lacy is going to land one clean shot and KO Joe!', or 'If Pavlik just ups his work rate and knocks B-Hop out of his rhythm, this could become competitive'.

I sincrely doubt that on the night, during the fight, anyone was ruling Hamed out. Hamed was never more than a few rounds down. The gap between the two fighters was never insurmountable.

There was always the chance that one of Hamed's shots would have landed clean and KO'd Barrera. Or that Barrera would take his foot off the gas and Hamed would capitalise.

I don't think Barrera's ingenious masterplan of circling left all night long, should be considered in the same category as the totally dominant boxing masterclass that Hopkins gave Pavlik, or the embarassing beat-down Calzaghe bestowed upon Lacy.

I think you need to watch the fight again and also listen into Hamed corner I hear what manny stewart was telling him from round 4. Barrera was unstoppable that night, Hamed never looked like troubling him at all.

Lacy/Calzaghe & Hopkins/Paviik are different fights, absolute shut-outs. I think it boils down to what one defines as a schooling. I have articulated in my above post how I believe Barrera schooled Hamed. He picked apart Hamed style and imposed in own style on Hamed, it was simply a boxing masterclass.

[DDA365]

Manny Steward in the corner was not an accurate guage of the fight, he was negative and defeatist from round 1, and his only advice to naz seemed to be

'completely change the style youve had since you were 6 in the middle of this fight'

great help

also seemed delighted by the result at the end

Not blaming the loss on him im not sure it would have made much difference had someone else been there just saying I did find his behaviour a bit odd when I watched it the other day.