how would marvin hagler fare against the murderers row of the 40s?

[shommel]

if a guy like lamotta could whip some of them how would hagler do?

[McGrain]

Hagler would do really really well. I think Holman Williams might give him fits though, and a series between himself Lloyd Marshall would be something to see...Marshall's size gives him the edge perhaps?

[Unforgiven]

Imagine how bitter Hagler would have been if he was back in that situation.

They should have put Hagler in a time machine in 1986 taken him to 1940 and made him fight a 12 month season amongst that crowd and then transported him into the ring with Sugar Ray Leonard 1987.

[PowerPuncher]

Who knows we dont have many of them on tape, very little of Burley, later versions of Moore/Charles. Marshall/Williams/Booker we just cant see.

Either way he'd pick up losses as would any MW, just too much strength in depth there and they were all fighting each other multiple times

[ThinBlack]

Hag would win a few, lose a few, but would probably establish some type of superiority eventually.

[Manassa]

Black middleweights of the '40s.

Overrated.

Williams, Burley, those two were brilliant. Lloyd Marshall was very good, Eddie Booker was arguably on his level.

Shorty Hogue was never fucking rated, nor his smaller brother, 'Big Boy.'

Cocoa Kid was very good as well, but he was a welterweight.

Bert Lytell, Tiger Wade, Jack Chase - they were pretty good, but not exactly uncrowned champions.

If Marvin Hagler lived in that era of short notice fights on the road and he fought each of these fighters twice, I reckon he'd end up with a record of 15-3-2. Or something. He was a special talent.

[mcvey]

Black middleweights of the '40s.

Overrated.

Williams, Burley, those two were brilliant. Lloyd Marshall was very good, Eddie Booker was arguably on his level.

Shorty Hogue was never fucking rated, nor his smaller brother, 'Big Boy.'

Cocoa Kid was very good as well, but he was a welterweight.

Bert Lytell, Tiger Wade, Jack Chase - they were pretty good, but not exactly uncrowned champions.

If Marvin Hagler lived in that era of short notice fights on the road and he fought each of these fighters twice, I reckon he'd end up with a record of 15-3-2. Or something. He was a special talent.

Artie Towne fought two fights in two nights, in March 1950 ,winning both.

Hagler was special , but he would have had his work cut out fighting the middles of the late 50's and early 60's, let alone the black 160 pounders of the 40's.
I just watched Giardello v Troy,and Lausse v Greaves, Fullmer v Savage.

These were great slam bang fights,Marciano did the commentary for the Giardello fight ,very capable and astute reader of a fight Rocky.

[janitor]

He would have been one of them.

[Sweet Pea]

Black middleweights of the '40s.

Overrated.

Williams, Burley, those two were brilliant. Lloyd Marshall was very good, Eddie Booker was arguably on his level.
I don't think there was much of a difference in class between the 4 of them at all. Booker beat Moore more conclusively than even Burley did just 3 months prior, while himself at the end of his career due to troubles seeing correctly out of one of his eyes.

Shorty Hogue was never fucking rated, nor his smaller brother, 'Big Boy.'That's a shame, considering Shorty beat Moore twice, Marshall, Booker, etc. I think it's clear he was an exceptional fighter, moreso than his brother at least.

If Marvin Hagler lived in that era of short notice fights on the road and he fought each of these fighters twice, I reckon he'd end up with a record of 15-3-2. Or something. He was a special talent.I figure he'd have picked up a couple more losses, or at least draws. I don't rate the Philly Murderer's Row nearly as highly, and he managed to pick up some losses there. He'd definitely have been among the best of the lot, I'm just not sure he'd have established a clear line of superiority over these men.

[Manassa]

You're right, in rushing that post I didn't think back to Hagler's early losses - I was taking the Hagler from '82 and transporting him.

Even so - 13-4-3 or thereabouts. I don't think the '40s middleweights in question were anything more than a 'tough bunch', any one of them capable of upsetting a champion or thwarting exploits of young prospects. Some better than others, obviously.

The bottom end ones were just 'pretty good', though. Beating a young Archie Moore was not an impossible task, relatively. I don't think he properly found his ways until the very late '40s.

That said, it can be a hard task to rate this era. They were all beating each other and they weren't often fighting the rated fighters out there - who may not have been deservedly rated anyway.

Holman Williams, I think, was clearly the greatest of them all. He did actually beat a lot of rated fighters.

[Manassa]

Artie Towne fought two fights in two nights, in March 1950 ,winning both.

Hagler was special , but he would have had his work cut out fighting the middles of the late 50's and early 60's, let alone the black 160 pounders of the 40's.
I just watched Giardello v Troy,and Lausse v Greaves, Fullmer v Savage.

These were great slam bang fights,Marciano did the commentary for the Giardello fight ,very capable and astute reader of a fight Rocky.

I think the late '50s and early '60s middleweights were a stronger bunch. Literally as well - they were bruising.

[PowerPuncher]

You're right, in rushing that post I didn't think back to Hagler's early losses - I was taking the Hagler from '82 and transporting him.

Even so - 13-4-3 or thereabouts. I don't think the '40s middleweights in question were anything more than a 'tough bunch', any one of them capable of upsetting a champion or thwarting exploits of young prospects. Some better than others, obviously.

The bottom end ones were just 'pretty good', though. Beating a young Archie Moore was not an impossible task, relatively. I don't think he properly found his ways until the very late '40s.

That said, it can be a hard task to rate this era. They were all beating each other and they weren't often fighting the rated fighters out there - who may not have been deservedly rated anyway.

Holman Williams, I think, was clearly the greatest of them all. He did actually beat a lot of rated fighters.

Hardly fair considering they didn't get their shot at the champion for the most part. What if Hagler never got his shot against Minter/Autuofermo and was stuck fighting black contenders no one wanted to fight?

When 3 of them did get their shot against a Prime Lamotta before Lamottas title shot, Marshall beat him, saying the best of the murderers row would too, Holman Williams lost a close decision past his prime at 34yo with 170+ fights. Lytell, not 1 of the best of the murderers row, was pre-prime and went to a close SD against Lamotta, someone on here posted it was controversal but I dont have the details. Burley beat Zivic more impressively than Lamotta (although that was at WW). And Lamotta said 'why do I need Burley why I can fight Zivic'?

And Lamotta was the only 1 going near the Murderers Row because Zale/GRaziano/Sugar Ray certainly didnt so who knows how they would have done??? I'd certainly pick Burley to dethrone Zale/Graviano and maybe even Cerdan/Lamotta despite being past it when they became champs

[Manassa]

Hardly fair considering they didn't get their shot at the champion for the most part. What if Hagler never got his shot against Minter/Autuofermo and was stuck fighting black contenders no one wanted to fight?

When 3 of them did get their shot against a Prime Lamotta before Lamottas title shot, Marshall beat him, saying the best of the murderers row would too, Holman Williams lost a close decision past his prime at 34yo with 170+ fights. Lytell, not 1 of the best of the murderers row, was pre-prime and went to a close SD against Lamotta, someone on here posted it was controversal but I dont have the details. Burley beat Zivic more impressively than Lamotta (although that was at WW). And Lamotta said 'why do I need Burley why I can fight Zivic'?

And Lamotta was the only 1 going near the Murderers Row because Zale/GRaziano/Sugar Ray certainly didnt so who knows how they would have done??? I'd certainly pick Burley to dethrone Zale/Graviano and maybe even Cerdan/Lamotta despite being past it when they became champs

I readily acknowledge, and did previously, that Booker, Marshall, Burley and Williams were very good fighters.

But I'm not sold on the rest of them who are tarred with the same brush. They were just decent.

[Sweet Pea]

But I'm not sold on the rest of them who are tarred with the same brush. They were just decent.I think that's very harsh. They weren't on quite the same level as the guys you mentioned, but they were obviously excellent fighters to have fared as well against the rest of the crop as they did. The accounts of them as fighters seem to back that up.

[Manassa]

Fucking hell, you have to choose your words very carefully around here lately.

Decent as in relative to the others.

But again, I'm not sold on them and never have been. Excluding those top four and talking about the rest - I think it's just too convenient for historians to miss - they fucking love it; black, avoided, they must be great.

That's my gripe - the notion that they were great (and I've heard it with regards to Chase and Wade) or better than the average contender. They were not.

[cotto20]

Hagler had problems with movers! and guys who could fight more than one way! willie the worm munroe, boogaloo watts, ray learnard and robeto duran were giveing marvin fits at times in there fights! imagine what burley would of been like archie moore said charley was as slick as lard and as slippery as butter, haglers worst nightmare!

[The Morlocks]

Hardly fair considering they didn't get their shot at the champion for the most part. What if Hagler never got his shot against Minter/Autuofermo and was stuck fighting black contenders no one wanted to fight?

When 3 of them did get their shot against a Prime Lamotta before Lamottas title shot, Marshall beat him, saying the best of the murderers row would too, Holman Williams lost a close decision past his prime at 34yo with 170+ fights. Lytell, not 1 of the best of the murderers row, was pre-prime and went to a close SD against Lamotta, someone on here posted it was controversal but I dont have the details. Burley beat Zivic more impressively than Lamotta (although that was at WW). And Lamotta said 'why do I need Burley why I can fight Zivic'?

And Lamotta was the only 1 going near the Murderers Row because Zale/GRaziano/Sugar Ray certainly didnt so who knows how they would have done??? I'd certainly pick Burley to dethrone Zale/Graviano and maybe even Cerdan/Lamotta despite being past it when they became champs
you can't really put Zale in that category, because he was in the war for the duration and when he came out 4 years later he went for the biggest buck; Graziano! Tony was really at the end of his career at that time and can be accused of ducking noone because of his service to his country.:hat

[SLAKKA]

if a guy like lamotta could whip some of them how would hagler do?

Jake got outclassed by Lloyd Marshall!!

[cotto20]

if a guy like lamotta could whip some of them how would hagler do?
Whats with the if a guy like la motta could whip them? on his best day i would put la motta in with any other middleweight and give him a 50\50 chance, in his prime he was one of the most avoided fighters around, you dont have 6 match ups with sugar ray for nothing besides the last fight they had and the first fight which jake won takeing rays unbeaten record in process, they were all close hard fought battle's.

[SLAKKA]

Whats with the if a guy like la motta could whip them? on his best day i would put la motta in with any other middleweight and give him a 50\50 chance, in his prime he was one of the most avoided fighters around, you dont have 6 match ups with sugar ray for nothing besides the last fight they had and the first fight which jake won takeing rays unbeaten record in process, they were all close hard fought battle's.

I'd love for you to give me those odds with Jake vs Lloyd Marshall

I could use your do ray mee!!

[PowerPuncher]

I readily acknowledge, and did previously, that Booker, Marshall, Burley and Williams were very good fighters.

But I'm not sold on the rest of them who are tarred with the same brush. They were just decent.

Shorty Hogue is an interesting story, went on quite a run though and went 1-1-3 against Booker, 2-1 against Archie Moore, 1-1 against Lloyd Marshall. And whats more went 42-11-2 in a career that only lasted. Did the last Moore fight ruin him or did he go off to war? He was only 21 when he had his last fight according to the Rec

Then you have Chase who beat Booker, went 1-4 against Moore, and 1-1 against Marshall, beating Aaron Wade more often than not but losing to Williams/Burley in numerous bouts

The thing about fights of this period is though, you have to ask how many were fixed???

[PowerPuncher]

you can't really put Zale in that category, because he was in the war for the duration and when he came out 4 years later he went for the biggest buck; Graziano! Tony was really at the end of his career at that time and can be accused of ducking noone because of his service to his country.:hat

Fair play, but either way they weren't getting a fair roll of the dice

[SLAKKA]

[quote=PowerPuncher;5552447]Shorty Hogue is an interesting story, went on quite a run though and went 1-1-3 against Booker, 2-1 against Archie Moore, 1-1 against Lloyd Marshall. And whats more went 42-11-2 in a career that only lasted. Did the last Moore fight ruin him or did he go off to war? He was only 21 when he had his last fight according to the Rec

West coast boxing back in Shortys day was covered by "The Knockout." Excellent publication. I recall reading someone on the scene saying, The more Shorty came into success and $$ the more he started screwing up and parting ect.
Like this is an old story in the fight game..right?

Anywho, I have all twin city write ups of Shortys fight with Burley and you cringe reading them. Talk about the frightful punishment. It wouldn't surprise me at all to discover Charlie considering this his golden career fight, so after that I'm sure Shortys head was like fk boxing!

[PowerPuncher]

[quote=PowerPuncher;5552447]Shorty Hogue is an interesting story, went on quite a run though and went 1-1-3 against Booker, 2-1 against Archie Moore, 1-1 against Lloyd Marshall. And whats more went 42-11-2 in a career that only lasted. Did the last Moore fight ruin him or did he go off to war? He was only 21 when he had his last fight according to the Rec

West coast boxing back in Shortys day was covered by "The Knockout." Excellent publication. I recall reading someone on the scene saying, The more Shorty came into success and $$ the more he started screwing up and parting ect.
Like this is an old story in the fight game..right?

Anywho, I have all twin city write ups of Shortys fight with Burley and you cringe reading them. Talk about the frightful punishment. It wouldn't surprise me at all to discover Charlie considering this his golden career fight, so after that I'm sure Shortys head was like fk boxing!

Interesting but not fighting after 21 is very strange, especially as its highly unlikely Shorty was set for life.

Maybe he came back under another name.....anyone got any idea about that???

[SLAKKA]

I do believe Shorty died in the early 60s as suicide. Below is the website of his biographer if u wanna make further inquires.


CharleyBurley.com

[GPater11093]

Black middleweights of the '40s.

Overrated.

Williams, Burley, those two were brilliant. Lloyd Marshall was very good, Eddie Booker was arguably on his level.

Shorty Hogue was never fucking rated, nor his smaller brother, 'Big Boy.'

Cocoa Kid was very good as well, but he was a welterweight.

Bert Lytell, Tiger Wade, Jack Chase - they were pretty good, but not exactly uncrowned champions.

If Marvin Hagler lived in that era of short notice fights on the road and he fought each of these fighters twice, I reckon he'd end up with a record of 15-3-2. Or something. He was a special talent.

only person really missing from there is Georgie Abrams (missing from the murderers row that is despite being white)

[la-califa]

On the other side of the coin, how would LaMotta have done against the Philly Middleweights, Hagler had to go through?

[SLAKKA]

only person really missing from there is Georgie Abrams (missing from the murderers row that is despite being white)
I was gonna say, to little Cocoas credit, he gave up many lbs and gave Georgie Freedom Abrams all he could handle.
In addition, Georgies draw vs Burley was really a case of Georgie getting his ass kicked.

Louis Kid Cocoa vs Washington's own Georgie Abrams by Nate Phillips THE RING. Nov 1940
At Washington, another Madison Square Garden attraction was presented in the main go of ten rounds between the number one welterweight contender, Louis Kid Cocoa. THE RING'S No. 5 middleweight and Washington's own Georgie Abrams. Cocoa scaled 1481/2 and Abrams, 158.

For the first three rounds, Abrams took the fight to Cocoa and had a slight edge, but at the start of the fourth, Cocoa found the range with that left of his and landed many telling blows in infighting.

the fifth, sixth and seventh were very big rounds for Cocoa who had Abrams' left eye cut. Abrams won the eighth by a shade, but in the ninth, Cocoa staggered Abrams and won the round. In the tenth and final, both went at it with Cocoa having a little the better of it, to take the round. The judges declared Abrams the winner at the end of a very good fight.

[cotto20]

On the other side of the coin, how would LaMotta have done against the Philly Middleweights, Hagler had to go through?
La motta had a prime ray robinson, holman williams, lloyd marshall, fritzie zivic, marcel cerdan and bob saterfield to deal with! he would not of lost no sleep over boogaloo watts, eugene hart or willie the worm monroe:D

[la-califa]

La motta had a prime ray robinson, holman williams, lloyd marshall, fritzie zivic, marcel cerdan and bob saterfield to deal with! he would not of lost no sleep over boogaloo watts, eugene hart or willie the worm monroe:D
Would have had his hands full with "Bad" Bennie Briscoe!:D

[Minotauro]

Hagler would win most but lose some too. Even guys like Chase or Kid who Marvin was better then might get a odd win here of there if they met over five times in a short space of time like these guys used too, I doubt they were 100% for a lot of the fights. I feel Holman, Burley and Marshall have the best chances of getting the better of Marvin more often. They seem to have the style to cause problems but as there is only one fight of Burely and Marshall and no footage of Holman it’s difficult to assess how the fights would go. Hagler was unpopular in his time can you image him in the 40's he'd probably be avoided like a plague by the top ranked white middleweights not named LaMotta.

[GPater11093]

I was gonna say, to little Cocoas credit, he gave up many lbs and gave Georgie Freedom Abrams all he could handle.
In addition, Georgies draw vs Burley was really a case of Georgie getting his ass kicked.

Louis Kid Cocoa vs Washington's own Georgie Abrams by Nate Phillips THE RING. Nov 1940
At Washington, another Madison Square Garden attraction was presented in the main go of ten rounds between the number one welterweight contender, Louis Kid Cocoa. THE RING'S No. 5 middleweight and Washington's own Georgie Abrams. Cocoa scaled 1481/2 and Abrams, 158.

For the first three rounds, Abrams took the fight to Cocoa and had a slight edge, but at the start of the fourth, Cocoa found the range with that left of his and landed many telling blows in infighting.

the fifth, sixth and seventh were very big rounds for Cocoa who had Abrams' left eye cut. Abrams won the eighth by a shade, but in the ninth, Cocoa staggered Abrams and won the round. In the tenth and final, both went at it with Cocoa having a little the better of it, to take the round. The judges declared Abrams the winner at the end of a very good fight.

thanks for that, i dont know too much on Abrams but know he was an alright fighter, i think that justunderlines Cocoa Kid's greatness little perforamnces like that.