Boxing books I've grown to hate.

[Unforgiven]

Thomas Hauser's "Life and Times of Muhammad Ali" - for its sheer vomit-inducing idol worshipping bullshit about what a great man and deep individual Ali is.
The later sections of David Remnick's "King Of The World" are somewhat similar. And I daresay that all those other Ali books I see in bookstore are along the same lines.

Roger Kahn's "Flame Of Pure Fire" about Jack Dempsey is pretty much the same with its adolescent idolizing of Dempsey, just as naseuating and biased, and lacking in depth of knowledge. Plus most of the substance is ripped off from previous Dempsey books but you could be fooled into believing Kahn picked it all up from conversations with Dempsey. Also, it's one of those books that rambles on about the events of the times, in unnecessary detail, ostensibly to "set the historical scene", but more likely just to fill pages.

And Nick Tosches almost completely fictional stylistic "biography" of Sonny Liston which has been published under two different titles - "The Devil and Sonny Liston" and "Night Train". It's hard to describe if you haven't read it, but it's mostly bullshit IMO.

[McGrain]

Thomas Hauser's "Life and Times of Muhammad Ali" - for its sheer vomit-inducing idol worshipping bullshit about what a great man and deep individual Ali is.

Agree.

But I like the other ones you mention.

[red cobra]

Thomas Hauser's "Life and Times of Muhammad Ali" - for its sheer vomit-inducing idol worshipping bullshit about what a great man and deep individual Ali is.
The later sections of David Remnick's "King Of The World" are somewhat similar. And I daresay that all those other Ali books I see in bookstore are along the same lines.

Roger Kahn's "Flame Of Pure Fire" about Jack Dempsey is pretty much the same with its adolescent idolizing of Dempsey, just as naseuating and biased, and lacking in depth of knowledge. Plus most of the substance is ripped off from previous Dempsey books but you could be fooled into believing Kahn picked it all up from conversations with Dempsey. Also, it's one of those books that rambles on about the events of the times, in unnecessary detail, ostensibly to "set the historical scene", but more likely just to fill pages.

And Nick Tosches almost completely fictional stylistic "biography" of Sonny Liston which has been published under two different titles - "The Devil and Sonny Liston" and "Night Train". It's hard to describe if you haven't read it, but it's mostly bullshit IMO.
I have to agree with you on just about every point here...Hauser is the Ali-Nut-Hugger par excellance...he makes me sick...and Tosches gets very carried away with himself!!

[PowerPuncher]

Thomas Hauser's "Life and Times of Muhammad Ali" - for its sheer vomit-inducing idol worshipping bullshit about what a great man and deep individual Ali is. .

The first boxing book I read as a teenager, loved it, arent most biographies supposed to show their man in a positive light?

[Addie]

The first boxing book I read as a teenager, loved it, arent most biographies supposed to show their man in a positive light?

Yes, but the purists cannot stand Ali hogging all the limelight. They'd all drool over Whitaker and Duran related books, though.

[JimmyShimmy]

Nah it's just that the Ali book goes over board - oh he was so funny, he was a great cook, sometimes he would not do anything but that was because it was clearly the greatest thing to do at the time...ya get me?

[Unforgiven]

The first boxing book I read as a teenager, loved it, arent most biographies supposed to show their man in a positive light?

Like I said, I've grown to hate it.
It has its merits but it hasn't proven to be a book that I can read over and over and still stomach its contents. Positive light is one thing, over-blown excessive idol-worship is another.
Biographies that are at least a modest bit objective are going to retain their credibility better, IMO.

Also, I think that particular book opened the flood gates for a slew of similar material about Ali.

[natonic]

While hate is a bit strong for me, I will say that the Hauser book is the only boxing book I've read (many) that I didn't finish. I don't know, it was just too long and didn't really provide me any insights I didn't already know.............The Liston book definitely isn't in my top 20 either.

[Flea Man]

I think Four Kings is badly written and totally overrated.




















Just kidding.

Wanna get that Sam Langford book but 40 English pounds?!?!?!?! Unbelievable.

[Rourke]

Thanks for the heads up on the Dempsey book...

Any particularly fascinating books out there that one _must_ read?

[essexboy]

I think Four Kings is badly written and totally overrated.




















Just kidding.

Wanna get that Sam Langford book but 40 English pounds?!?!?!?! Unbelievable.

I was gonna say I just read Four Kings and I loved it.

[essexboy]

The first boxing book I read as a teenager, loved it, arent most biographies supposed to show their man in a positive light?

Most autobiographies maybe but a decent biography should be accurate and unbiased, at least thats what I'd enjoy about it.

[janitor]

A better name for this thread would be:

"Boxing books that have badly distorted general perceptions of certain fighters or boxing history in general".

There is a long and inglorious list.

[Manassa]

Like us Brits would say; 'Tom Hauser is a cunt.'

I've hated the man with a deep passion since the very first time I heard him speak. 'The three greatest fighters of all time were Muhammad Ali, Sugar Ray Robinson and Joe Louis.' This is before I knew anything about boxing, and I could tell he was talking out of his arse.

I think the only two people I hate more in boxing are Bert Sugar and Ian Darke.

[Flea Man]

Like us Brits would say; 'Tom Hauser is a cunt.'

'Wanker' would be a more appropriate term in my mind though I agree with the sentiment :good

[Robbi]

Hugh Mcllvanney. He's the top man for boxing writing. :good

[PowerPuncher]

Like I said, I've grown to hate it.
It has its merits but it hasn't proven to be a book that I can read over and over and still stomach its contents. Positive light is one thing, over-blown excessive idol-worship is another.
Biographies that are at least a modest bit objective are going to retain their credibility better, IMO.

Also, I think that particular book opened the flood gates for a slew of similar material about Ali.

Perhaps he lays it on thick I only really read it that 1 time and I wasnt the biggest critic at the time. It was an intro into Ali for me, some great little stories and he became my hero for much of my teens

I read a bio Ali put out in the 70s after but thought this book was. Again it was all in my teens and I wasnt a sceptic as a teenager that I sadly am now :lol:

[essexboy]

Hugh Mcllvanney. He's the top man for boxing writing. :good

Im reading McIlvanney on Boxing at the minute funnily enough.

[Robbi]

Im reading McIlvanney on Boxing at the minute funnily enough.

Great book. Very nicely varied indeed.

Here is an excellent article from Hugh on Leonard-Duran II which isn't featured in the book.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[GPater11093]

anyone see the harsh review, in (British) Boxing News , of Ringside by Schullberg im reading it at the minute and really like it

[Flea Man]

Yeah read the harsh review. Judging by the quotes the reviewer has a point.

[Hydraulix]

I hate the book that Holyfield and his old manager wrote. Completely one sided and biased. Full of lies. A complete joke.

[GPater11093]

Yeah read the harsh review. Judging by the quotes the reviewer has a point.

it was harsh

but its a good book hes focused on the negative and tainted it to look bad. If you read it youd enjoy it.

[Robbi]

Anyone here who's Scottish and doesn't own "McIIvanney on Boxing" needs slapped across the head with a wet Salmon.

[GPater11093]

Anyone here who's Scottish and doesn't own "McIIvanney on Boxing" needs slapped across the head with a wet Salmon.

you better slap me

i cant find it in book shops when i look, thats my excuse but its now top of my to read list.

[Robbi]

Budd Shulberg "Ringside - A treasury of boxing reportage" is also an excellent book. It has more articles over the last 20 years than "McIIvanney on Boxing". I don't think it's quite as good, but still one of the best boxing books around. Nice variation in both though.

[Robbi]

you better slap me

i cant find it in book shops when i look, thats my excuse but its now top of my to read list.

You'll get it from online. Amazon or The Book Depository.

[essexboy]

Great book. Very nicely varied indeed.

Here is an excellent article from Hugh on Leonard-Duran II which isn't featured in the book.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Cheers mate thoroughly enjoyed that. I think Duran did end up redeeming himself. Im enjoying the book as well, McIlvanney's telling me stuff I didnt know about fights I've seen upteen times. Hes a very unique writer.

[GPater11093]

You'll get it from online. Amazon or The Book Depository.

theres no excuse

ill have a look for it

[Robbi]

Cheers mate thoroughly enjoyed that. I think Duran did end up redeeming himself. Im enjoying the book as well, McIlvanney's telling me stuff I didnt know about fights I've seen upteen times. Hes a very unique writer.

McIIvanney's article on Leonard-Duran II.

"Brown, the second of his old trainers, says that with Duran boxing has always been too serious to be considered a sport. 'It's not like football,' says Brown. 'Because he never gives you the ball.' Realising that Leonard was taking the ball away from him for keeps, Duran resolved to put a knife in it"

:lol:

[Robbi]

theres no excuse

ill have a look for it

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[essexboy]

McIIvanney's article on Leonard-Duran II.

"Brown, the second of his old trainers, says that with Duran boxing has always been too serious to be considered a sport. 'It's not like football,' says Brown. 'Because he never gives you the ball.' Realising that Leonard was taking the ball away from him for keeps, Duran resolved to put a knife in it"

:lol:


Exactly. :lol:

[TheIronMan]

Peter Hellers Biography on Tyson seems pretty fair imo.

Ive just bought Sonny Liston his life, strife and the phantom punch by Rob Steen, anyone else read that? of so what did u think?

[McGrain]

The Steen book is very straight ahead, there are some insights. The mob thing is investigated but it's not the trip-and-fall-down block it is in Night Train. The Ali fights are seen as pretty straight up which is refreshing or naive depending upon the circumstances. Every writer will buy into the Sonny myth to some degree...this book is the closest thing we'll see to a straight forwards bio of the man IMO.

[GPater11093]

thanks Robbi

[Rourke]

Any good/great book or books on Max Baer?

[Unforgiven]

Thanks for the heads up on the Dempsey book...

Dont get me wrong, it's got it's merits. But all the good stuff in it is gleaned from previous books. The rest is just fluff.

[McGrain]

I think Flame of Pure Fire is a good book. I agree with you that there is hero worship of JD, but for the right reasons. I would go so far as to recommend it to someone in fact.

[GPater11093]

on the subject of boxing books

anyone see the new Joe Gans book that Ring did a bad review on as t said Fleisher was rascist

well Ring have been having an arguement with it through the letter pages every month, giving the book free publicity haha

[Russell]

Bert Sugar

Yeah, I don't know how that asshole keeps getting paid for sucking on his phallic like cigars and being a uneducated, uninteresting douche bag.

[Robbi]

Some of the best editions of The Ring were when Bert Sugar was the editor. However, he talks some amount of nonsense at times.

[Bill1234]

I hate the book that Holyfield and his old manager wrote. Completely one sided and biased. Full of lies. A complete joke.

The "Holyfield Way", I read it too, and I had to force myself to read it from cover to cover. I remember the end went something along the lines of

Evander: "You just don't quit do you?'
James Thomas (Author): "I learned that from you."

I almost threw up when I read that.

[Bill1234]

Yeah, I don't know how that asshole keeps getting paid for sucking on his phallic like cigars and being a uneducated, uninteresting douche bag.

The man is a great and funny guy in person, he was on of the more fan friendly people I've seen.

[TBooze]

I really was looking foward to Allen S. Rosenfeld's Charley Burley book, but just cannot get into it.

I loved John Duncan's In the Red Corner, a history of Cuban Boxing. Sure it was basically about Savon, but it was fun and honest.

I met Holyfield once (in my job), I love the fighter, but the person came across as a wanker, sure, it may of been a bad day at the office, but Holyfield thought of himself as a celebrity, but did not (in this instance) act with the class needed to pull it off.

[slip&counter]

"shadows of manila" the author just sounds too angry and agenda driven to take seriously

[TheIronMan]

The Steen book is very straight ahead, there are some insights. The mob thing is investigated but it's not the trip-and-fall-down block it is in Night Train. The Ali fights are seen as pretty straight up which is refreshing or naive depending upon the circumstances. Every writer will buy into the Sonny myth to some degree...this book is the closest thing we'll see to a straight forwards bio of the man IMO.


Thanks for the review, i look forward to reading the book!.

[klompton]

The Ali and Dempsey books are pretty terrible, beyond biased, and refuse to give anything resembling a negative side to their subject which leaves them rather one dimensional.

I havent read the Tosches book since it first came out but, admitting that Im no expert on Liston, I thought it was decent.

[klompton]

Yeah, I don't know how that asshole keeps getting paid for sucking on his phallic like cigars and being a uneducated, uninteresting douche bag.


Agreed. I am constantly amazed that this asshole can spout so much misinformation and flat out factual errors to consistently appear in print and film. Its a testament not to his knowledge but to his skills at self promotion. And I completely disagree that Ring put out some of its best issues under him. I think Sugar's era was the worst era of the magazine next to its current incarnation where color photos (which are often photoshopped by the way) have replaced actual reporting. When they brought Jim Bagg on board it signalled Ring's deathknell.

[TBooze]

Sugar is boxing royalty, sure dementia has long since kicked it, and he has not a scooby, but you Americans must learn, Royalty does little wrong, forgive them and let them become the icons that help the sport grow.

[Thread Stealer]

I don't think I've read a boxing book that I actually HATE.

However, the Liston book at times I was just like "what the hell?" I thought I was reading a boxing book, not a trashy romance novel. The guy has a long passage on the size of Sonny's dick.

[Unforgiven]

I think Flame of Pure Fire is a good book. I agree with you that there is hero worship of JD, but for the right reasons. I would go so far as to recommend it to someone in fact.

Ok, I admit it is a good book. I just think he could have toned down his hero worship a bit, and also admitted that the actual substance of the book was NOT gathered from conversations with Dempsey himself, which on first reading you could be forgiven for believing. It turns out most of his Dempsey quotes are straight from other books.
I think he plays down the abilities of Harry Wills when that subject arises. Wills doesn't get his dues. He also plays down Tunney a bit too. Firpo and Willard, on the other hand, are given their just dues.

Maybe I dont hate this book now, to be honest. It's just I dont like it like I first did, I feel he could have done Dempsey justice without overlooking or distorting some of the other major players.
I also think he should have spent more time researching Dempsey - as he obviously spent time reading newspapers articles that had nothing to do with boxing - and not just re-hashed a load of stuff from previous bios.

Anyway, I didn't want to just have Muhammad Ali books as the books I hate. Then I would get accused of being a "hater". :lol:

[fists of fury]

Biographies by their very nature will almost always portray their subjects in a positive light. After all, why would anyone undertake such a project if they were not interested in that fighter to begin with?
Possibly the only biography I've read which was mostly negative was Jose' Torres' book on Tyson, Fire And Fear. I don't think it was a vindictive book, but shit it was depressing to read.
Montieth Illingworth's book on Tyson was somewhat negative. It's starts out fine, but once he gets into details about King, Robin Givens, lawsuits, lawsuits and yet more lawsuits it shows what an incredibly screwed up life Tyson was leading. It wasn't negative commentary on Tyson's character so much though...mostly just factual reporting.

I do agree that completely going overboard with praise for your subject, be it Ali or Liston or whomever, is too much though. Luckily I've avoided books like that so far.

[Jack Dempsey]

Agree totally on the Burley book, I came away knowing very little about the man himself, surely the point of a biography?. The harry otty book is better in respect of getting to know a bit about the man himself

One that pissed me off when I read it was the new Ray Arcel book, basically a few meagre chapters on the man himself, the rest, a potted history of each of his most famous fighters

[GPater11093]

The "Holyfield Way", I read it too, and I had to force myself to read it from cover to cover. I remember the end went something along the lines of

Evander: "You just don't quit do you?'
James Thomas (Author): "I learned that from you."

I almost threw up when I read that.

the end of Nigel Benns book is just like that

here it is the last sentance

'If the dark destroyer can become a devout christian, so can you' :patsch

[AffectedToaster]

i'm thinking of getting the Eubank autobiography, can anyone tell me if its worth reading

[klompton]

Sugar is boxing royalty, sure dementia has long since kicked it, and he has not a scooby, but you Americans must learn, Royalty does little wrong, forgive them and let them become the icons that help the sport grow.


Dementia must have kicked in about thirty years ago then because ever since he first started getting in the public eye hes been spouting horseshit.

[Hydraulix]

I don't think I've read a boxing book that I actually HATE.

However, the Liston book at times I was just like "what the hell?" I thought I was reading a boxing book, not a trashy romance novel. The guy has a long passage on the size of Sonny's dick.

Oh my God. What is the title of that book? ( I am a girl, by the way.)

[Robbi]

An interesting quote from the late Budd Schulberg

""It almost a cliche now," Schulberg continues, "but the best fighter I ever saw was Sugar Ray Robinson. Henry Armstrong came close, and I’d put the young Muhammad Ali near the top. The best fight I ever saw was the first fight between Joe Louis and Billy Conn. Over the years, I’ve met most of the legendary heavyweight champions; Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, Muhammad Ali. And one thing that strikes me about all of them is, they’ve all been remarkably gentle and kind outside the ring."

[Flea Man]

Oh my God. What is the title of that book? ( I am a girl, by the way.)

I feel bda for criticising another one of your posts now. Seriously. Should be a Gentleman even on a Boxing forum :lol::good

[raiderjay]

I really enjoyed "Ghosts of Manila" by Mark Kram. Granted, I didn't like Ali to begin with but the majority of the negative things about Ali mentioned in his book have been mentioned in many other books, documentaries, etc.

This was the first time that I had found a source that laid it all out there though as far as the piece of shit Ali really was.

Since then HBO has done a documentary covering at least part of the ground also.

[Stonehands89]

The two best boxing biographies I've read are "Unforgivable Blackness" and Jack Cavanaugh's "Tunney".

[AlFrancis]

I'm reading Jack kid Berg's autobiography at the moment. The Whitechapel Windmill. I'd recommend this, thoroughly enjoyed it. His early life in the Eastend's Jewish community, introduction to boxing, the local boxers and politics of those times. There are full in depth analysis of all his big American fights with comments and reports from different sources, Fleischer, Gallico, Ray Arcel. The Canzoneri and Kid Chocolate fights in full, who was in attendance.
You get a great insight into the man himself and his life as a young lad enjoying his fame to the full.
A great boxing book and a great look into the past.
If you can get it, read it.

Authors John Harding and Jack Berg

[essexboy]

The two best boxing biographies I've read are "Unforgivable Blackness" and Jack Cavanaugh's "Tunney".

Read Unforgivable Blackness, it was very good. Jack Johnson had it tough.

[Stonehands89]

Read Unforgivable Blackness, it was very good. Jack Johnson had it tough.
Jack Johnson had it tough to begin with ....but chose to make it tougher than it ever had to be, for him and everyone else with his complexion. He was far from a hero. He was dangerously irresponsible and had about as much wisdom as a horse shoe.

The documentary is almost as good, see it if you haven't.

[essexboy]

Jack Johnson had it tough to begin with ....but chose to make it tougher than it ever had to be, for him and everyone else with his complexion. He was far from a hero. He was dangerously irresponsible and had about as much wisdom as a horse shoe.

The documentary is almost as good, see it if you haven't.

Yeah he had all the arrogance Muhammad Ali had years later. Im suprised Johnson was never assassinated actually. I'll look into the documentary.

[mcvey]

Yeah he had all the arrogance Muhammad Ali had years later. Im suprised Johnson was never assassinated actually. I'll look into the documentary.

It was attempted , a couple of days before he fought Jeffries, some one took a shot at him.

[mcvey]

Anyone here who's Scottish and doesn't own "McIIvanney on Boxing" needs slapped across the head with a wet Salmon.

He writes equally well on all sports ,especially horse racing ..McIIlvanney is the Champ writer in the UK.
I beleive it was his brother that wrote the book " The Big Man", made into a film starring Liam Neeson

[essexboy]

I'm reading Jack kid Berg's autobiography at the moment. The Whitechapel Windmill. I'd recommend this, thoroughly enjoyed it. His early life in the Eastend's Jewish community, introduction to boxing, the local boxers and politics of those times. There are full in depth analysis of all his big American fights with comments and reports from different sources, Fleischer, Gallico, Ray Arcel. The Canzoneri and Kid Chocolate fights in full, who was in attendance.
You get a great insight into the man himself and his life as a young lad enjoying his fame to the full.
A great boxing book and a great look into the past.
If you can get it, read it.

Authors John Harding and Jack Berg

I would love to read that, I'll try and get a copy.

It was attempted , a couple of days before he fought Jeffries, some one took a shot at him.

Well there you go. Was that bit in the book? I forget now, I cant remember it being in there.

When I finish McIlvanney on Boxing I'm starting Hands of Stone, apparently its very good.

[DamonD]

I love threads like this.

[Arka]

He writes equally well on all sports ,especially horse racing ..McIIlvanney is the Champ writer in the UK.
I beleive it was his brother that wrote the book " The Big Man", made into a film starring Liam Neeson

McIlvanney's convoluted prose is not to my taste.
His use of metaphor and simile often tends to obscure rather than illuminate.

It's a cliche,but I felt that Liebling was the best.Spare and descriptive, not given to hyperbole,with an interesting turn of phrase.
I also like Red Smith's writing,even though his dislike of Ali is a bit one note.

Thomas Hauser's "Life and Times of Muhammad Ali" - for its sheer vomit-inducing idol worshipping bullshit about what a great man and deep individual Ali is.....

Roger Kahn's "Flame Of Pure Fire" about Jack Dempsey is pretty much the same with its adolescent idolizing of Dempsey......

And Nick Tosches almost completely fictional stylistic "biography" of Sonny Liston which has been published under two different titles - "The Devil and Sonny Liston" and "Night Train". It's hard to describe if you haven't read it, but it's mostly bullshit IMO.

I liked the first one.It was meant to be a celebration of his life and the scene around him.At least does contain some uncomplimentary opinions of about the man.

BTW who was the trainer in Dempsey book who thought that 'those boys' Ali and Frazier wouldn't have stood a chance with Jack?

[Arka]

The guy has a long passage on the size of Sonny's dick.

Oh my God.


"It was a monster."- A Hurting Business by Thomas Healy

[Unforgiven]

BTW who was the trainer in Dempsey book who thought that 'those boys' Ali and Frazier wouldn't have stood a chance with Jack?

Ray Arcel

[CottoDaBodykill]

jack johnson was a long legged mac daddy

[Arka]

Ray Arcel

Oh OK. Thanks.

[GPater11093]

i'm thinking of getting the Eubank autobiography, can anyone tell me if its worth reading

yeh its good, ive read it.