How did Alfredo Evangelista ever get 2 title shots?

[mr. magoo]

Who did he beat to get 2 title shots against Holmes and Ali?

In 1977, Alfredo Evangelista had a record of 14-1, and was coming off an 8 round decision loss to Lorenzo Zanon, and with no real wins over anyone special, yet Ali fought him for the title. About 18 months later, he received a second chance against Larry Holmes after having a similar streak of wins against seemingly unranked opposition.

Although he held a continental title at some point, his career record reflects the accomplishments of a man who was little more than a mere journeyman.

[ChrisPontius]

He was lucky to be at the right time when champions were looking for easy title wins. Maybe Holmes thought Evangelista had a bit of a name because Ali beat him, and he wanted to do it quicker to overcome his minority complex with Ali?

[mr. magoo]

He was lucky to be at the right time when champions were looking for easy title wins. Maybe Holmes thought Evangelista had a bit of a name because Ali beat him, and he wanted to do it quicker to overcome his minority complex with Ali?

Well,

Evangelista sure had life easy as a contender.

[Street Lethal]

It has to do with the sport being international and the value of giving people from other places a shot at the world title.

[mr. magoo]

It has to do with the sport being international and the value of giving people from other places a shot at the world title.

And I'm not opposed to such a concept, except a fighter still needs to earn his recognition justly, or we run the risk of deluding the very idea of equal opportunity.

[My dinner with Conteh]

1st time: Because The Drake was ducking Foreman rematch.

2nd time: Because The Mallard was ducking any decent contenders. :good

[mr. magoo]

1st time: Because The Drake was ducking Foreman rematch.

2nd time: Because The Mallard was ducking any decent contenders. :good

LOL :lol:

Both are probably true. Frankly, I'm surprised that Walter Santemore and Bob Stallings didn't receive title shots.

Now that would have been equal opportunity

[Street Lethal]

And I'm not opposed to such a concept, except a fighter still needs to earn his recognition justly, or we run the risk of deluding the very idea of equal opportunity.
I agree. But I think that is what was at work here.

[mr. magoo]

At one point, Lucien Rodriguez, Alfredo Evangelista and Lorenzo Zanon slapped each other around like the three stooges. All of these clowns were given title shots, and fights with big name contenders.

[Duodenum]

Evangelista's shot against Ali was extremely controversial. Somehow, he managed to obtain the lowest ranking that would make him eligible for a title shot. Ali was coming off his rugged 15 rounder against Norton, which was preceded by his being hospitalized to have his legs drained of blood following the Inoki fiasco in Japan, and with Shavers in the wings, he was probably seeking an easy title defense to determine if he had enough left in the tank to continue. Evangelista was only aiming to last the distance, and do well enough to establish himself as a credible contender for the EBU HW Title which Lucien Rodriguez had just won from Coopman. (Within four months, Evangelista had dethroned Rodriguez.) Ali and his handlers, being publicity conscious, were certainly also mindful of the fact that Evangelista was a native of Uruguay boxing out of Spain. Being the attention seeker Ali always was, this was a convenient way for him to get the attention of three continents at once. Geographics and demographics.

Evangelista's title shot against Holmes was far less controversial.

After Larry's war with Norton, he was looking for an easy defense against a reasonably credentialed but safe contender. As Evangelista had previous gone the distance with Ali, had held his EBU title for over a year, successfully defended it over the 15 round distance, and also had never been floored or knocked out, it was part of a good promotional card to hype up an eventual anticipated Holmes/Norton superfight rematch. (On that undercard, Kenny scored a one punch knockout over Randy Stephens in three.) Because Evangelista had never been floored or stopped, this defense was a good showcase barometer for Holmes, still largely an unknown quantity as a new champion, and an opportunity for him to cut his teeth as a defending titleholder.

[mr. magoo]

Evangelista's shot against Ali was extremely controversial. Somehow, he managed to obtain the lowest ranking that would make him eligible for a title shot. Ali was coming off his rugged 15 rounder against Norton, which was preceded by his being hospitalized to have his legs drained of blood following the Inoki fiasco in Japan, and with Shavers in the wings, he was probably seeking an easy title defense to determine if he had enough left in the tank to continue. Evangelista was only aiming to last the distance, and do well enough to establish himself as a credible contender for the EBU HW Title which Lucien Rodriguez had just won from Coopman. (Within four months, Evangelista had dethroned Rodriguez.) Ali and his handlers, being publicity conscious, were certainly also mindful of the fact that Evangelista was a native of Uruguay boxing out of Spain. Being the attention seeker Ali always was, this was a convenient way for him to get the attention of three continents at once. Geographics and demographics.

Evangelista's title shot against Holmes was far less controversial.

After Larry's war with Norton, he was looking for an easy defense against a reasonably credentialed but safe contender. As Evangelista had previous gone the distance with Ali, had held his EBU title for over a year, successfully defended it over the 15 round distance, and also had never been floored or knocked out, it was part of a good promotional card to hype up an eventual anticipated Holmes/Norton superfight rematch. (On that undercard, Kenny scored a one punch knockout over Randy Stephens in three.) Because Evangelista had never been floored or stopped, this defense was a good showcase barometer for Holmes, still largely an unknown quantity as a new champion, and an opportunity for him to cut his teeth as a defending titleholder.

An interesting narrative Deen.

[Duodenum]

At one point, Lucien Rodriguez, Alfredo Evangelista and Lorenzo Zanon slapped each other around like the three stooges. All of these clowns were given title shots, and fights with big name contenders.I'm trying to be nice to the European posters on ESB. This is supposed to be a "world" championship. Hence, EBU and British champions occasionally would get title shots. (But yes, it's my understanding that Lucien, Alfredo and Lorenzo are Spanish for Larry, Moe and Curly.)

[Duodenum]

An interesting narrative Deen.T'anks, Bloss!

[mr. magoo]

I'm trying to be nice to the European posters on ESB. This is supposed to be a "world" championship. Hence, EBU and British champions occasionally would get title shots. (But yes, it's my understanding that Lucien, Alfredo and Lorenzo are Spanish for Larry, Moe and Curly.)

Do you suppose that chicken Alfredo was a dish named after Evangelista? Perhaps this is a recipe that even Bean fart used in preparation for some of his matches.

[timmers612]

I remember someone in print called him Alfredo the tomato, and oh was he awful! I don't believe Ali trained a week for him except maybe for extra bowls of ice cream and it was such an awful half sparring session.

[Luigi1985]

IMO Evangelista rocked, he was the real deal... in another HW era, he would have been the undisputed champ for a long while...

[mcvey]

He was lucky to be at the right time when champions were looking for easy title wins. Maybe Holmes thought Evangelista had a bit of a name because Ali beat him, and he wanted to do it quicker to overcome his minority complex with Ali?
Both champions were coming off gruelling ,close 15 rounders against Norton,but whereas Ali was 35,and feeling it Holmes was 29 and just into his prime. Evangelista was a poor challenger but I think Ali can be forgiven for taking an easy one at this stage of his career,his next fight was against Shavers,a dangerous challenger,how about the two guys Frazier fought after beating Ali,Stander and Daniels?

[mr. magoo]

Both champions were coming off gruelling ,close 15 rounders against Norton,but whereas Ali was 35,and feeling it Holmes was 29 and just into his prime. Evangelista was a poor challenger but I think Ali can be forgiven for taking an easy one at this stage of his career,his next fight was against Shavers,a dangerous challenger,how about the two guys Frazier fought after beating Ali,Stander and Daniels?

Agreed,

Ali fighting Evangelista was more explicable than Holmes giving him a shot, especially after an aging Ali had already bested him. What's more, Ali's legacy had already been well established long before he fought Evangelista. Holmes on the otherhand, was just begining his reign and should have been more aggresive about cleaning out the division's top fighters before taking a shot with such a mediocre challenger. In 1979, you had guys like Tate, Coetzee and a few others who were far more deserving of a title shot than was Evangelista. What's worse, Holmes didn't just stop at fighting one average Euro champ. He also gave shots to Evangelista's peers like Lorenzo Zanon and Lucien Rodriguez. These men were hardly deserving of title shots, as were David Bey, Scott Ledoux, Scott Frank, Marvis Frazier, Ossie Ocasio, Tex Cobb, Leon Spinks and a faded Ali.

Hey, did I leave anyone out?

[mcvey]

Agreed,

Ali fighting Evangelista was more explicable than Holmes giving him a shot, especially after an aging Ali had already bested him. What's more, Ali's legacy had already been well established long before he fought Evangelista. Holmes on the otherhand, was just begining his reign and should have been more aggresive about cleaning out the division's top fighters before taking a shot with such a mediocre challenger. In 1979, you had guys like Tate, Coetzee and a few others who were far more deserving of a title shot than was Evangelista. What's worse, Holmes didn't just stop at fighting one average Euro champ. He also gave shots to Evangelista's peers like Lorenzo Zanon and Lucien Rodriguez. These men were hardly deserving of title shots, as were David Bey, Scott Ledoux, Scott Frank, Marvis Frazier, Ossie Ocasio, Tex Cobb, Leon Spinks and a faded Ali.

Hey, did I leave anyone out?
As great a fighter as I think Holmes was [my top5],when you look at his challengers ,the ones he deigned to figt,they dont exactly fill you with awe do they?

[Bummy Davis]

Ali could fight anyone and people would watch because Ali was a big name to the non BoxingExpert so Ali could get away with it, Holmes was matched soft and avoided too many of the good fighters of his era and fought too many non deservers

[mr. magoo]

As great a fighter as I think Holmes was [my top5],when you look at his challengers ,the ones he deigned to figt,they dont exactly fill you with awe do they?

Well,

let me put it this way. Can you ever imagine Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali, Mike Tyson, Joe Frazier, Lennox Lewis or Evander Holyfield as having Gerry Cooney listed as their best win?...........I thought not............I'll give Holmes a very small bit of latitude given that he was partially a victom of bad timing and corrupt politics, however can't we make a similar case for most all time greats? Ali was the subject of racism, the vietnam war, and a very tough era. Louis was a product of the great depression and World War II ( which he served during by the way) Liston was under the thumb of the mafia, which some speculate may have led to his demise. Holmes had some difficult dilemas to contend with, but he also had choices. Not many champions can boast such a luxury.

[Street Lethal]

Evangelista's shot against Ali was extremely controversial. Somehow, he managed to obtain the lowest ranking that would make him eligible for a title shot. Ali was coming off his rugged 15 rounder against Norton, which was preceded by his being hospitalized to have his legs drained of blood following the Inoki fiasco in Japan, and with Shavers in the wings, he was probably seeking an easy title defense to determine if he had enough left in the tank to continue. Evangelista was only aiming to last the distance, and do well enough to establish himself as a credible contender for the EBU HW Title which Lucien Rodriguez had just won from Coopman. (Within four months, Evangelista had dethroned Rodriguez.) Ali and his handlers, being publicity conscious, were certainly also mindful of the fact that Evangelista was a native of Uruguay boxing out of Spain. Being the attention seeker Ali always was, this was a convenient way for him to get the attention of three continents at once. Geographics and demographics.

Evangelista's title shot against Holmes was far less controversial.

After Larry's war with Norton, he was looking for an easy defense against a reasonably credentialed but safe contender. As Evangelista had previous gone the distance with Ali, had held his EBU title for over a year, successfully defended it over the 15 round distance, and also had never been floored or knocked out, it was part of a good promotional card to hype up an eventual anticipated Holmes/Norton superfight rematch. (On that undercard, Kenny scored a one punch knockout over Randy Stephens in three.) Because Evangelista had never been floored or stopped, this defense was a good showcase barometer for Holmes, still largely an unknown quantity as a new champion, and an opportunity for him to cut his teeth as a defending titleholder.
Solid and fair post.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Names bandied around before Ali agreed to fight Evangelista were Duane Bobick and South African no-hoper Mike Schutte. When the latter fell through when Schutte was sparked by Kallie Knoetze...but he did beat a guy named Ringo Starr so Ali probably felt he was at least as good as Evangelista.

[Duodenum]

Do you suppose that chicken Alfredo was a dish named after Evangelista? Perhaps this is a recipe that even Bean fart used in preparation for some of his matches.Well, that's the last time I eat Italian for a while!

[Duodenum]

I remember someone in print called him Alfredo the tomato, and oh was he awful! I don't believe Ali trained a week for him except maybe for extra bowls of ice cream and it was such an awful half sparring session.Damnit, the garden is now producing tomatoes, and now I can't eat them! (Thanks to your timely reminder, I'm having to give them away. Thanks a lot!:barf)

[TBooze]

Evangelista was bad, but he was no Richard Dunn;)

[Duodenum]

Evangelista was bad, but he was no Richard Dunn;)"If I was in the same kind of shape for this one that I was in for Jimmy Young, Dunn would be Champion now."
-Muhammad Ali
(How's that for a scary thought?:scaredas:)

[TBooze]

"If I was in the same kind of shape for this one that I was in for Jimmy Young, Dunn would be Champion now."
-Muhammad Ali
(How's that for a scary thought?:scaredas:)

If that was the case, then Stallone could of actually made RockyII greater than the original. He could of got Weathers to challenged Dunn in 77 and Carl would of been 50/50 to actually win the Heavyweight Championship....

RockyII... Rocky actually winning the real Heavyweight Championship of the World!:hey

[Mendoza]

Evangelista's shot against Ali was extremely controversial. Somehow, he managed to obtain the lowest ranking that would make him eligible for a title shot. Ali was coming off his rugged 15 rounder against Norton, which was preceded by his being hospitalized to have his legs drained of blood following the Inoki fiasco in Japan, and with Shavers in the wings, he was probably seeking an easy title defense to determine if he had enough left in the tank to continue. Evangelista was only aiming to last the distance, and do well enough to establish himself as a credible contender for the EBU HW Title which Lucien Rodriguez had just won from Coopman. (Within four months, Evangelista had dethroned Rodriguez.) Ali and his handlers, being publicity conscious, were certainly also mindful of the fact that Evangelista was a native of Uruguay boxing out of Spain. Being the attention seeker Ali always was, this was a convenient way for him to get the attention of three continents at once. Geographics and demographics.

Evangelista's title shot against Holmes was far less controversial.

After Larry's war with Norton, he was looking for an easy defense against a reasonably credentialed but safe contender. As Evangelista had previous gone the distance with Ali, had held his EBU title for over a year, successfully defended it over the 15 round distance, and also had never been floored or knocked out, it was part of a good promotional card to hype up an eventual anticipated Holmes/Norton superfight rematch. (On that undercard, Kenny scored a one punch knockout over Randy Stephens in three.) Because Evangelista had never been floored or stopped, this defense was a good showcase barometer for Holmes, still largely an unknown quantity as a new champion, and an opportunity for him to cut his teeth as a defending titleholder.

Well put. To quote Holmes, " Ali took Evangelsita, and Zannon the distance. I knocked them out. "

[mr. magoo]

Well put. To quote Holmes, " Ali took Evangelsita, and Zannon the distance. I knocked them out. "

And indeed what a career accomplishment it was. He managed to do better against Evangelista than Lorenzo Zanon, who retired with a total of 9 knockouts in 27 wins.

Woo hoo!!!!! :happy

[Duodenum]

If that was the case, then Stallone could of actually made RockyII greater than the original. He could of got Weathers to challenged Dunn in 77 and Carl would of been 50/50 to actually win the Heavyweight Championship....

RockyII... Rocky actually winning the real Heavyweight Championship of the World!:heyThe way boxing's going, he may yet.....:think

[My dinner with Conteh]

Just looked at a few old issue of Boxing News last night. It turrns out that Evangelista dropped out with a fight vs our very own chirpy scouser Billy Aird on the grounds of, according to Evangelista's Spanish agent: "Alfredo has just been married and he didn't want a tough contest against the likes of Aird at this stage". :lol:


Also, taking a look at Boxing News' European ratings for December 1976, Evanglista isn't even in the Top 10. :yep

[mr. magoo]

Just looked at a few old issue of Boxing News last night. It turrns out that Evangelista dropped out with a fight vs our very own chirpy scouser Billy Aird on the grounds of, according to Evangelista's Spanish agent: "Alfredo has just been married and he didn't want a tough contest against the likes of Aird at this stage". :lol:


Also, taking a look at Boxing News' European ratings for December 1976, Evanglista isn't even in the Top 10. :yep

I believe everything you said. If we take a close look at Evangelista's record, there are very few if any decent wins on his resume. Christ, he fought and knocked out Lucien Rodriguez three consecutive times, and fought him a fourth as if the first three weren't enough. He was also beaten I believe, twice by Lorenzo Zanon and Ko'd in 5 rounds by Leon Spinks. I don't care if Holmes and Ali were looking for easy fights in between tough bouts. The fact that this guy got two title shots in just two years with nothing to justify it, is just plain wrong.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I believe everything you said. If we take a close look at Evangelista's record, there are very few if any decent wins on his resume. Christ, he fought and knocked out Lucien Rodriguez three consecutive times, and fought him a fourth as if the first three weren't enough. He was also beaten I believe, twice by Lorenzo Zanon and Ko'd in 5 rounds by Leon Spinks. I don't care if Holmes and Ali were looking for easy fights in between tough bouts. The fact that this guy got two title shots in just two years with nothing to justify it, is just plain wrong.



It is ridiculous, especially the first one. These ratings were before he lost to Zanon and he still received a shot. :shock: Ali was totally trying to avoid another go with Foreman, it's embarrassing when you look back at how much fudging he was doing to avoid George and even Jimmy Young and Norton (again). I know there's always the 'he deserves and easy contest' line but not against fighters ranked as fodder for the likes of Billly Aird. :lol:

[mr. magoo]

It is ridiculous, especially the first one. These ratings were before he lost to Zanon and he still received a shot. :shock: Ali was totally trying to avoid another go with Foreman, it's embarrassing when you look back at how much fudging he was doing to avoid George and even Jimmy Young and Norton (again). I know there's always the 'he deserves and easy contest' line but not against fighters ranked as fodder for the likes of Billly Aird. :lol:

Agreed,

Although I'm not a big advocate for supporting champions taking on easy fights to avoid real contenders, I can't help but think that there had to be someone better than Evangelista, who could have served as a fluff opponent for Ali in 1977, such as maybe John Dino Denis or Leroy Jones. I also think that Ali chose to fight Leon Spinks, thinking that he was also going to be Alfredoesque if you will.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I also think that Ali chose to fight Leon Spinks, thinking that he was also going to be Alfredoesque if you will.


Personally, I think he chose Spinks because he knew it 'd be an easy rematch. ;)

[mr. magoo]

Personally, I think he chose Spinks because he knew it 'd be an easy rematch. ;)

This is a common theory and one that I often agree with. Many have accused Ali of purposefully throwing the first Spinks fight in an effort to become the first three time champ in history. I don't how much water the theory actually holds, but it's certainly a strong possibility in my opinion.

[My dinner with Conteh]

This is a common theory and one that I often agree with. Many have accused Ali of purposefully throwing the first Spinks fight in an effort to become the first three time champ in history. I don't how much water the theory actually holds, but it's certainly a strong possibility in my opinion.



At the beginning of 77 Ali was talking of retiring. The word was he'd pack it in and Foreman-Norton would be for the vacant title. He'd then resume his comeback to attempt to become the first three time champ. The Spinks fight stinks somewhat. I'm not saying the fix was in but he mostly fought like he didn't give a shit.

[mr. magoo]

At the beginning of 77 Ali was talking of retiring. The word was he'd pack it in and Foreman-Norton would be for the vacant title. He'd then resume his comeback to attempt to become the first three time champ. The Spinks fight stinks somewhat. I'm not saying the fix was in but he mostly fought like he didn't give a shit.

I agree,

The Spinks fights were a horrible display, and rather boring to watch. I personally don't think that either of those guys were the best fighters in the world at that point in time, especially Spinks. Had Ali fought Holmes in 1978, or even Norton for a fourth time, he likely would have lost in decisive fashion at that point.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I agree,

The Spinks fights were a horrible display, and rather boring to watch. I personally don't think that either of those guys were the best fighters in the world at that point in time, especially Spinks. Had Ali fought Holmes in 1978, or even Norton for a fourth time, he likely would have lost in decisive fashion at that point.


Yep. Larry or Ken would have beaten Ali fairly easily. The 1978 Larry would have won virtually every round I'd say.

[mr. magoo]

Yep. Larry or Ken would have beaten Ali fairly easily. The 1978 Larry would have won virtually every round I'd say.

No doubt about it.

[Gyro]

You guys are forgetting that Holmes was still a young man when he fought Evangelista, Zannon etc. Ali was nearing 40 when he fought Evangelista, etc. You guys' comparisons don't make any sense at all, think, if those guys faced the younger Ali that beat Foreman, Frazier or the Ali from the 60s how do you think they would have fared? Thats right, he would walked all over them in 5 rounds at the most. Keep in mind Ali's health and ability began to decline after Manila rapidly. And by the way, you guys are also comparing Holmes to Ali here. If its comparing their opponents overall we all know Holmes' opposition falls pale next to virtually the greatest resume in HW history, Ali's resume. Holmes, a man who prides himself on beating a 40 year old Ali with early signs of parkinson's syndrome and still could not knock him out for a 10 count remember, his best career opposition were past their prime Norton and Shavers. While both Norton and Shavers are top legends, they were past it when they fought Holmes.

Holmes' best career opposition

Norton - 35 years old
Shavers (twice) - 34 years old

Ali's best career opposition


Frazier (twice)- 30 (when they fought the first time Frazier was 27)
Foreman - 25
Liston (twice)- 32
Patterson (twice)- 29 (first meeting)
Norton (twice)- 29 (when he beat him in the rematch)
Shavers - 33
Lyle - 32
Quarry - 25 (first meeting)

There is also plenty of other great HW contenders who would have been champions during Holmes' era that Ali beat such as Chuvalo, Bugner, Cooper, Williams, Terrel, Folley, Bonavena, Ellis, Foster etc.

I'd like to point out other great fighters Holmes fought but that was it, yes he fought other decent fighters who were solid contenders as did Ali but no more. Holmes was a byproduct of luck, he came up when the 60s 70s golden age HW fighters were aged(most had retired) and a new weak era of boxing took rise and he fell right on top of it. There was also about a 6 month windows in the mid 70s for him to fight Foreman and he ducked out of the way. With that said, your comparisons of them fighting guys like evangelista is vague, holmes knocked them out but he was a 29 year old prime fighter, Ali was nearing 40. Big difference.

[red cobra]

No matter how limited Rossman was, he wasn't quite as bad as some posters are making him out to be.

[Stevie G]

He was lucky to be at the right time when champions were looking for easy title wins. Maybe Holmes thought Evangelista had a bit of a name because Ali beat him, and he wanted to do it quicker to overcome his minority complex with Ali?
Sounds about right. Holmes succeeded too. As Ali was way past his 70's best,and Holmes was in his prime.

[Stevie G]

[quote=My dinner with Conteh;433090]1st time: Because The Drake was ducking Foreman rematch.
The Drake and the Mallard. Very poetic !

[Stevie G]

At the beginning of 77 Ali was talking of retiring. The word was he'd pack it in and Foreman-Norton would be for the vacant title. He'd then resume his comeback to attempt to become the first three time champ. The Spinks fight stinks somewhat. I'm not saying the fix was in but he mostly fought like he didn't give a shit.
The first time Ali fought Spinks,he employed similar tactics to bout with Ron Lyle - Do virtually nothing for the the first part of the fight,and come on strong later.
He caught Lyle with a peach of a right,and followed it up with a blazing combination. By the time he got to Spinks,Muhammad could no longer do those things.

[Stevie G]

You guys are forgetting that Holmes was still a young man when he fought Evangelista, Zannon etc. Ali was nearing 40 when he fought Evangelista, etc. You guys' comparisons don't make any sense at all, think, if those guys faced the younger Ali that beat Foreman, Frazier or the Ali from the 60s how do you think they would have fared? Thats right, he would walked all over them in 5 rounds at the most. Keep in mind Ali's health and ability began to decline after Manila rapidly. And by the way, you guys are also comparing Holmes to Ali here. If its comparing their opponents overall we all know Holmes' opposition falls pale next to virtually the greatest resume in HW history, Ali's resume. Holmes, a man who prides himself on beating a 40 year old Ali with early signs of parkinson's syndrome and still could not knock him out for a 10 count remember, his best career opposition were past their prime Norton and Shavers. While both Norton and Shavers are top legends, they were past it when they fought Holmes.

Holmes' best career opposition

Norton - 35 years old
Shavers (twice) - 34 years old

Ali's best career opposition


Frazier (twice)- 30 (when they fought the first time Frazier was 27)
Foreman - 25
Liston (twice)- 32
Patterson (twice)- 29 (first meeting)
Norton (twice)- 29 (when he beat him in the rematch)
Shavers - 33
Lyle - 32
Quarry - 25 (first meeting)

There is also plenty of other great HW contenders who would have been champions during Holmes' era that Ali beat such as Chuvalo, Bugner, Cooper, Williams, Terrel, Folley, Bonavena, Ellis, Foster etc.

I'd like to point out other great fighters Holmes fought but that was it, yes he fought other decent fighters who were solid contenders as did Ali but no more. Holmes was a byproduct of luck, he came up when the 60s 70s golden age HW fighters were aged(most had retired) and a new weak era of boxing took rise and he fell right on top of it. There was also about a 6 month windows in the mid 70s for him to fight Foreman and he ducked out of the way. With that said, your comparisons of them fighting guys like evangelista is vague, holmes knocked them out but he was a 29 year old prime fighter, Ali was nearing 40. Big difference.
Good post :good A 29/30 year old Ali would have stopped Spinks,Shavers and Evangelista.

[Stevie G]

Yep. Larry or Ken would have beaten Ali fairly easily. The 1978 Larry would have won virtually every round I'd say.
No disputing THAT ! Muhammad was too far gone to have beaten those men at that point in his career.

[Gyro]

No disputing THAT ! Muhammad was too far gone to have beaten those men at that point in his career.

I agree. Also 60s Ali beats Holmes anyday 9/10. The Ali from 70-75 would definitely beat Holmes probably the same number of times...what about the Ali that beat Spinks in the rematch in 78? That Ali trained his behind off from the minute he lost the title to Spinks...he ran until 3am right after that bout as the story goes...it was his last masterpiece...not the same obviously but for that one night I think he could have beaten 80 Holmes no doubt. I don't think Spinks won more than 2 rounds that night...Ali had one last great fight in him.

[Stevie G]

I agree. Also 60s Ali beats Holmes anyday 9/10. The Ali from 70-75 would definitely beat Holmes probably the same number of times...what about the Ali that beat Spinks in the rematch in 78? That Ali trained his behind off from the minute he lost the title to Spinks...he ran until 3am right after that bout as the story goes...it was his last masterpiece...not the same obviously but for that one night I think he could have beaten 80 Holmes no doubt. I don't think Spinks won more than 2 rounds that night...Ali had one last great fight in him.
I disagree with your view that Ali '78 would have beaten the 1980 version of Holmes. He was still too far gone to have managed that. He would have put up a far better fight,and would probably have lasted the distance.
To find an Ali that I would have confidently betted on to have beaten a 1980 Holmes,you'd have had to have gone back to 1974 (Frazier 2 and Foreman) A Thrilla in Manila Ali would have been a 50/50 shot.

[My dinner with Conteh]

This is an old thread, i'd forgotten about "The Drake". :yep

[Stevie G]

Just looked at a few old issue of Boxing News last night. It turrns out that Evangelista dropped out with a fight vs our very own chirpy scouser Billy Aird on the grounds of, according to Evangelista's Spanish agent: "Alfredo has just been married and he didn't want a tough contest against the likes of Aird at this stage". :lol:


Also, taking a look at Boxing News' European ratings for December 1976, Evanglista isn't even in the Top 10. :yep
And did n't Billy get shafted when they did actually fight ? A hometown decision. I've never met Billy,but bizzarely had a telephone conversation with him. About ten years ago,Billy was working down here in London. A mutual friend handed me his phone in a pub one night,and I talked to Billy for about 5 minutes. He told me that he was mentioned as a possible opponent for an up and coming Frank Bruno. They never offered Billy enough money though !

[My dinner with Conteh]

Not sure what the consensus was there mate. I do know that most at ringside scored Aird the winner in his draw with Jimmy Young (probably Billy's best ever result).

[Stevie G]

Not sure what the consensus was there mate. I do know that most at ringside scored Aird the winner in his draw with Jimmy Young (probably Billy's best ever result).
I told Billy,over the phone,that he fought terribly against John L Gardner (I'd sank a few lagers by this time...) and could n't believe that he'd lost to him. Billy said that he hardly trained for that one.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I told Billy,over the phone,that he fought terribly against John L Gardner (I'd sank a few lagers by this time...) and could n't believe that he'd lost to him. Billy said that he hardly trained for that one.

Ah, what else could it be, like every 99% of fighters, "I didn't try" is a far more legitimate excuse than "I wasn't able".

[Stevie G]

Ah, what else could it be, like every 99% of fighters, "I didn't try" is a far more legitimate excuse than "I wasn't able".
Very true. Aird had the edge on skill over Gardner,but did n't have as much determination.
Did you ever see Aird's fight with Conteh ?

[red cobra]

As for Holmes in Ali's first term in the 60's, Larry was MILES ahead of any of Ali's challengers..it makes you wonder..

[Stevie G]

As for Holmes in Ali's first term in the 60's, Larry was MILES ahead of any of Ali's challengers..it makes you wonder..
Would have been a good challenge for Ali. He'd still have won though,imo.

[Unforgiven]

Evangelista earned his shot at Ali by going 8 rounds with Lorenzo Zanon.
Obviously, he didn't beat the great Zanon, but going the 8 round distance proved him worthy to fight Ali.

Then he proved himself at the highest level by going 15 rounds with Ali.
If Holmes hadn't fought Evangelista no one would have taken Larry's claim to be champion seriously.

Lorenzo Zanon eventually went 2-0 against Evangelista and that's why Holmes just had to fight Zanon.
Imagine if Holmes had ducked both Evangelista and Zanon !
It's a testament to Holmes' greatness that he beat both.

[he grant]

the alphabet orgs .. plain and simple ... filler fringe contenders for champions between bigger bouts ...

Ali's post Frazier second reign was pathetic .. he lost to Norton, looked horrendous v.s. Young, lucked out against Shavers and did everything possible to avoid fighting Norton again ...

Holmes had just won the title and was entitled to an easy on after beating Norton and Shavers ...

[Vince Voltage]

Somehow though, Evangelista went on to beat Renaldo Snipes for the biggest win of his career. Alfredo had a pretty long career, actually. He was a decent journeyman, but never deserved his title shots. He was the European Scott LeDoux.

[Titan1]

Somehow though, Evangelista went on to beat Renaldo Snipes for the biggest win of his career. Alfredo had a pretty long career, actually. He was a decent journeyman, but never deserved his title shots. He was the European Scott LeDoux.

Renaldo should be ashamed for losing that fight to Alfredo.At least Greg Page laid him out.

[Gyro]

As for Holmes in Ali's first term in the 60's, Larry was MILES ahead of any of Ali's challengers..it makes you wonder..

Are you serious? :rofl Larry didn't even start to box Professionaly until 1973 and didn't earn credibility as a serious contender until 1978 when he beat an aging Shavers. So no, he was not in any way ahead of any of Ali's challengers in the 60s...his amateur record was also brief at 19-3.

Unless you wanted to see a very green Holmes who was barely into boxing in the 60s get pummeled by Cassius Clay(back then)

[Hank]

Don King, Don King, and also, not to be forgotten, Don KIng. Start, middle, and end of why he got two shots.

[Hank]

Renaldo should be ashamed for losing that fight to Alfredo.At least Greg Page laid him out.


Snipe started getting in trouble with law due to coke habit, was arrested for drugs and beating up girlfriend. He was good fighter, not the best contender ever but a dangerous one to some degree. If Snipes stayed clean he likely beats Evangelista.

I also have to add, whoever that woman he hit was, she must have some chin.

[Mendoza]

Who did he beat to get 2 title shots against Holmes and Ali?

In 1977, Alfredo Evangelista had a record of 14-1, and was coming off an 8 round decision loss to Lorenzo Zanon, and with no real wins over anyone special, yet Ali fought him for the title. About 18 months later, he received a second chance against Larry Holmes after having a similar streak of wins against seemingly unranked opposition.

Although he held a continental title at some point, his career record reflects the accomplishments of a man who was little more than a mere journeyman.

He was a poor title defense for Ali. Ali had too many of them. Evangelista did fairly well in the match.