Please Participate--All-Time Middleweight Survey--POLL CLOSED!

[Rumsfeld]

EDIT: Deadline will be extended until September 21.

Same deal as with the heavyweight & light heavyweight divisions. I will keep this one going until September 20 (give or take, but make that the tentative deadline for now).

Scoring system is as follows:

25 points for your #1 guy
15 for #2
12 for #3
10 for #4
8 for #5
5 for #6
4 for #7
3 for #8
2 for #9
1 for #10

Please make a list of TEN FIGHTERS.

Anyway, here's my list to start things off:

1. Marvin Hagler
2. Carlos Monzon
3. Harry Greb
4. Sugar Ray Robinson
5. Bernard Hopkins
6. Charles Burley
7. Stan Ketchel
8. Jake Lamotta
9. Tiger Flowers
10. Mickey Walker

(*****No ties please, just a straight forward top TEN)

:smoke

[WhataRock]

First draft off the top of my head.

1. Harry Greb
2. Carlos Monzon
3. Marvin Hagler
4. Ray Robinson
5. Stanley Ketchel
6. Bernard Hopkins
7. Dick Tiger
8. Bob Fitzsimmons
9. Charley Burley
10. Mickey Walker

[Rumsfeld]

First draft off the top of my head.

I love the idea of this merely being a draft. Reminds me of when McGrain said that coming up with a middleweight list is as frustrating as doing a tax return.

:lol:

1. Harry Greb
2. Carlos Monzon
3. Marvin Hagler
4. Ray Robinson
5. Stanley Ketchel
6. Bernard Hopkins
7. Dick Tiger
8. Bob Fitzsimmons
9. Charley Burley
10. Mickey Walker

Now, I'm the first to admit that there are a lot of guys around here in the Classic Forum who are far more knowledgeable than me, but that looks like a pretty solid list to me.

:good

[WhataRock]

That took me about 30 secs...then about 5 mins of staring at it thinking "Shit, that doesnt look right".

But then I left it...dont really have the time right now to research it to the degree I like, which isnt a hell of a lot but more then just a hastily compiled group of names.

It probably wont change a hell of a lot to tell you the truth because it is frustrating making one..given the long history of the division and the lack of footage available of many of the greats. If I change one, then I have to change another for the same reasoning and then it all goes to shit. :lol:

Im fairly confident of my top 4 anyway.

[My2Sense]

1. Robinson
2. Greb
3. Monzon
4. Hagler
5. Tiger
6. Burley
7. Hopkins
8. Fitzsimmons
9. Walker
10. Flowers

[dmt]

1.Marvin Hagler
2.Carlos Monzon
3.Harry Greb
4.Sugar Ray Robinson
5.Bernard Hopkins
6.Mickey Walker
7.Bob Fitzimmons
8.Marcel Cerdan
9.Dick Tiger
10.Stankey Ketchel

[Ezzard]

1 Greb
2 Monzon
3 Robinson
4 Hagler
5 Ketchel
6 Tiger
7 Burley
8 Fitzsimmons
9 Hopkins
10 Marshall

[ChrisPontius]

A very hard task.

1. Monzon
2. Greb
3. Jones
4. Hopkins
5. Hagler
6. Fitzsimmons
7. Robinson
8. Cerdan
9. Walker
10.Tiger

[McGrain]

A very hard task.



And then some.

Not to pick on you Chris, by why no Holman Williams? His resume basically pisses all over most of these guys.

[McGrain]

01 - Harry Greb
02 - Sugar Ray Robinson
03 - Carlos Monzon
04 - Marvin Hagler
05 - Holman Williams
06 - Bernard Hopkins
07 - Charley Burley
08 - Tiger Flowers
09 - Mickey Walker
10 - Dick Tiger

For what it's worth.

[Manassa]

1. Harry Greb
2. Carlos Monzon
3. Marvin Hagler
4. Ray Robinson
5. Bernard Hopkins
6. Dick Tiger
7. Tiger Flowers
8. Charley Burley
9. Joey Giardello
10. Jake LaMotta

[mcvey]

1Greb
2 Robinson
3Monzon
4 Hagler
5 Ketchel
6Walker
7 Burley
8Tiger
9 Hopkins
10 Lamotta [List has been amended]

How do you rate this division? How do you leave guys like Giardello out?
More to the point, how did I leave Hopkins out!

[ChrisPontius]

And then some.

Not to pick on you Chris, by why no Holman Williams? His resume basically pisses all over most of these guys.

Then why don't you have him at #1?

[McGrain]

Then why don't you have him at #1?


Well most and all isn't the same thing.

[ChrisPontius]

Well most and all isn't the same thing.

There have so many great middleweights; by including one you're always doing an other a disfavor. Maybe i should've included him, but i think my choice are more than justify-able.

[McGrain]

There have so many great middleweights; by including one you're always doing an other a disfavor. Maybe i should've included him, but i think my choice are more than justify-able.


No doubt.

Williams is going to get absolutley shat on in this poll though.

[red cobra]

A very hard task.

1. Monzon
2. Greb
3. Jones
4. Hopkins
5. Hagler
6. Fitzsimmons
7. Robinson
8. Cerdan
9. Walker
10.Tiger
ChrisP, your list and mine differ only minimally:
1. Monzon
2. Hagler
3. Greb
4. Robinson
5. Hopkins
6. Walker
7. Fitzsimmons
8. Cerdan
9. Jones
10. Tiger

[red cobra]

Oh man, I knew this was going to be a hard list to make! Right after ranking guys like Cerdan and Tiger, I'm thinking, how can I exclude the guys who topped them, LaMotta and Griffith, respectively? It seems ridiculous to omit LaMotta and Griffith..what, you say, they had short, relatively inconsequential, abbreviated title reigns? Well so did Robinson, and what about Jones? Sure, a gifted fighter, but who the hell did he beat of any consequence while holding the title? Cerdan had not one successful defense, and Hopkins, in my opinion, while he sure established himself as one of the most seasoned, clever fighters of modern times, fought a long, undistinguished line of nobodys, IMO, with the exception of Trinidad and De la Hoya, and they sure as hell weren't middleweights by any standard, except for merely making the weight for their fights with Hopkins. So I guess a new, revised list is on it's way. This is a great thread, though, by the way, and at first I didn't think anything special about it...."just another list" I thought.

[PowerPuncher]

Using a combination of head to head and achievements

1. Jones
2. Robinson
3. Hopkins
4. Greb
5. Burley
6. Monzon
7. Holman Williams
8. Tiger
9. Toney
10. M Walker

[McGrain]

Using a combination of head to head and achievements

1. Jones


:lol:

[red cobra]

This is more like it, for now anyway:
1. Monzon
2. Hagler
3. Greb
4. Robinson
5. Walker
6. LaMotta
7. Hopkins
8. Griffith
9. Tiger
10. Fitzsimmons

[red cobra]

I find making a greatest middleweight or welterweight list an almost impossible task if it omits Emile Griffith.

[teeto]

1. Greb
2. Robinson
3. Monzon
4. Hagler
5. Hopkins
6. Ketchel
7. Tiger
8. Dempsey
9. LaMotta
10. Flowers

I had a terrily difficult time putting Monzon behind Robinson and not too sure if i should have. LaMotta and Flowers could easily have been in reverse order and/or swapped for the likes of Burley, Walker, Fulmer, even Cerdan, all of whom float around them positions likely for me.

But i'll just stick with my list for you Rummy.

[teeto]

And see i don't have Jimmy Bivins or Bob Fitzimmons, fuck this shit, i'm not coming back in this thread.

[teeto]

:lol:
I know, i hope he means Ralph 'Tiger' Jones, on the strength of his win over Robinson.

[PowerPuncher]

01 - Harry Greb
02 - Sugar Ray Robinson
03 - Carlos Monzon
04 - Marvin Hagler
05 - Holman Williams
06 - Bernard Hopkins
07 - Charley Burley
08 - Tiger Flowers
09 - Mickey Walker
10 - Dick Tiger

For what it's worth.

I like the high ranking of , are you Burley's no1 fan or is that McVey? I get you Mc's mixed up.

Holman must be the most underrated of all times resume wise LW-LHW, having 188 fights, winning series with Marshall and Burley, 1-1 with Archie Moore, big names like Lytel, Wade, Chase (3times), Booker, taking Lamotta to a controversal SD at the age of 34.

[McGrain]

I like the high ranking of , are you Burley's no1 fan or is that McVey? I get you Mc's mixed up.

That's me.

Holman must be the most underrated of all times resume wise LW-LHW, having 188 fights, winning series with Marshall and Burley, 1-1 with Archie Moore, big names like Lytel, Wade, Chase (3times), Booker, taking Lamotta to a controversal SD at the age of 34.

Yeah, resume wise he's got a spot locked down in my opinion. He won't make it though, by the looks.

[PowerPuncher]

That's me.



Yeah, resume wise he's got a spot locked down in my opinion. He won't make it though, by the looks.

Didn't you have Burley about 20 places higher P4P? :huh

[McGrain]

Didn't you have Burley about 20 places higher P4P? :huh

A good dose higher last time I did a list, yeah.

[frankenfrank]

1. Langford
2. Toney
3. Monzon
4. Hagler
5. Reggie Johnson
6. Robinson
7. Burley
8. Fitzsimmons
9. Valdez
10 . Ketchell

[OLD FOGEY]

1-----Harry Greb
2-----Carlos Monzon
3-----Marvin Hagler
4-----Bernard Hopkins
5-----Bob Fitzsimmons
6-----Tommy Ryan
7-----Teddy Yarosz
8-----Mickey Walker
9-----Sugar Ray Robinson
10----Charley Burley

What a tough division to rate--probably more talent than any other division.

[Ezzard]

I wonder how this one will work out. There are some odd picks so far. I thought it was all but impossible to have anyone but Greb as number 1.

[Smith]

Carlos Monzon
Harry Greb
Marvin Hagler
Ray Robinson
Mickey Walker
Tiger Flowers
Charley Burley
Dick Tiger
Emile Griffith
Holman Williams

I'm not at all happy with that list, I'll revisit it soon, I'm trying to understand why I don't have Hopkins in there.:think I'll have to change it, give me a day.

[McGrain]

1-----Harry Greb
2-----Carlos Monzon
3-----Marvin Hagler
4-----Bernard Hopkins
5-----Bob Fitzsimmons
6-----Tommy Ryan
7-----Teddy Yarosz
8-----Mickey Walker
9-----Sugar Ray Robinson
10----Charley Burley

What a tough division to rate--probably more talent than any other division.

Horrible to rate this division. Horrible. I wonder how many of your guys Ezzard Charles would beat? Your #10, obviously, I wonder how young Charles would do with Yarosz (interesting mention by the way) or Walker.

Also, and i'm not critisising because we agree it's horrific, it's intersting that you have space for Walker but not Flowers...Flowers has Greb twice of course, our #1, and seems to have fought at least on even terms with Mickey.

[OLD FOGEY]

Horrible to rate this division. Horrible. I wonder how many of your guys Ezzard Charles would beat? Your #10, obviously, I wonder how young Charles would do with Yarosz (interesting mention by the way) or Walker.

Also, and i'm not critisising because we agree it's horrific, it's intersting that you have space for Walker but not Flowers...Flowers has Greb twice of course, our #1, and seems to have fought at least on even terms with Mickey.


Ezzard Charles won at lightheavy. I just didn't want to speculate on how high he would rate at middle as he was only there for a short time and there are so many others in this division who merit consideration.

Walker over Flowers--Walker did better over the length of his entire career. Age and a ton of tough fights might have been catching up with Greb by the time he fought Flowers.

[McGrain]

Ezzard Charles won at lightheavy. I just didn't want to speculate on how high he would rate at middle as he was only there for a short time and there are so many others in this division who merit consideration.

Well, he weighed 161 and 160 for his fights with Burley, who you rank at ten...I do agree that he's not in the ten, but I think these results show how stacked the division is. Horrible.

Walker over Flowers--Walker did better over the length of his entire career. Age and a ton of tough fights might have been catching up with Greb by the time he fought Flowers.

I think Walker above Flowers can be justified, certainly, but I do like the Greb wins, especially the second one. And if he wasn't quite himself for the first one, this is Greb you know?

[Smith]

Should I have a place for Fitz and Hopkins? I even wondered about Cerdan. I felt compelled to enter this thread because I truly find it impossible to appease everyone and myself for a MW list, as all you do too.

[McGrain]

Should I have a place for Fitz and Hopkins? I even wondered about Cerdan. I felt compelled to enter this thread because I truly find it impossible to appease everyone and myself for a MW list, as all you do too.

Forget everyone else buddy, you just got to weigh it as best you can. The easiest way is to do a 15 and then just write up the ten.

[Smith]

Forget everyone else buddy, you just got to weigh it as best you can. The easiest way is to do a 15 and then just write up the ten.I've got about 17 names in front of me, I've left some out that some people could probably find space for at the lower end but I know little of them compared to the others.

I'm going to mull it over over next few hours at work and come up with my final ten.:good

[Stonehands89]

1. Harry Greb
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Carlos Monzon
4. Charley Burley
5. Ray Robinson
6. Holman Williams
7. Joey Giardello
8. Bernard Hopkins
9. Mickey Walker
10. Dick Tiger

NOTES FROM HELL
* rankings of MWs since 1920.
* Greb just took the top spot over Hagler in the last year.
* I place a premium on challenges and Burley deserves his spot over Ray. Ray had longevity and some solid wins, but the bigger Burley's resume was impressive at MW and he strikes me as more formidable there. Ray had bigger purses but Burley fought more dangerous guys: Champions LaMotta, Basilio, and Fullmer aren't as good in my opinion as guys like Archie Moore and Murderers' Row that Burley was facing down.
* I love Burley's KO of Turner, Walker's win over Wright, and Hopkins' later wins... these aren't necessary for high placement (see Hagler) but they can boost a guy.
* Holman deserves his spot. Yep, that high.
* Griffith bothers me... but he split his accomplishments as a WW.
* Hopkins bothers me a bit as well, but then Giardello's placement doesn't.

[GPater11093]

1. Hagler
2. Monzon
3. Greb
4. Robinson
5. Tiger
6. Hopkins
7. Walker
8. Williams
9. Burley
10. Lamotta

[junior-soprano]

1 monzon
2 greb
3 SRR
4 hagler
5 walker
6 hopkins
7 tiger
8 lamotta
9 ketchel
10 flowers

this one was very very very difficult. my top 5 is pretty solid but from 6 to 10 it's pretty close and if i have to do again in say 2 months maybe some persons may change a position

[ChrisPontius]

ChrisP, your list and mine differ only minimally:


Great minds think alike. :good

Good mention on Griffith, fantastic fighter for sure, and perhaps somewhat under-appreciated.

[Sweet Pea]

edited

[Sweet Pea]

1-----Harry Greb
2-----Carlos Monzon
3-----Marvin Hagler
4-----Bernard Hopkins
5-----Bob Fitzsimmons
6-----Tommy Ryan
7-----Teddy Yarosz
8-----Mickey Walker
9-----Sugar Ray Robinson
10----Charley Burley

What a tough division to rate--probably more talent than any other division.:huh

[GPater11093]

I'll go ahead and throw this one out. Don't even ask the criteria.

1. Harry Greb
2. Bob Fitzsimmons
3. Carlos Monzon
4. Stanley Ketchell
5. Marvin Hagler
6. Ray Robinson
7. Dick Tiger
8. Freddie Steele
9. Tiger Flowers
10. Mickey Walker

dont ask me hwy but that made me laugh

[the cobra]

1. Carlos Monzon
2. Harry Greb
3. Ray Robinson
4. Marvin Hagler
5. Bernard Hopkins
6. Charley Burley
7. Stanley Ketchel
8. Dick Tiger
9. Tiger Flowers
10. Mickey Walker

[Mr Butt]

1.marvin hagler
2.harry greb
3.carlos monzon
4.charley burley
5.bob fitzsimmons
6.ray robinson
7.holman williams
8.stanley ketchel
9.mickey walker
10.bernard hopkins


this may change

[OLD FOGEY]

:huh

I will give my reasons.

Yarosz's career record was 107-18-3, better than some others who have made lists here.

He fought 11 world champions. He defeated 10 of them, going 13-5 against world champions.

World champions defeated--Tommy Freeman (1-0), Vince Dundee (3-0), Ben Jeby (1-0), Pete Latzo (1-0), Babe Risko (1-2), Ken Overlin (2-0), Solly Krieger (1-0), Lou Broulliard (1-0), Billy Conn (1-2), Archie Moore (1-0)

He did not defeat Ezzard Charles (0-1)

Of the champions who defeated him, he injured his knee in his first fight against Risko and had to retire in his corner, the only time he was stopped. He had to have an operation. In the return, he again injured his knee, which hampered him. He lost the decision and had to have a second knee operation. In a third fight, he defeated Risko.
He lost two split decisions to Billy Conn, but won a third fight in 1938, the last man to beat Conn prior to the Joe Louis fights.
He lost to Charles in 1941 when obviously going back and nearing the end of his career.

Except for Charles, none of these champions proved themselves decisively better than Yarosz, who won his last fight with all of them.

Besides champions, Yarosz defeated top contenders such as Sammy Slaughter, Oscar Rankin, Al Gainer. Nate Bolden, Jimmy Reeves, and Lloyd Marshall. He defeated something like 35 or so fighters ranked when he fought them.

Yarosz was an excellent boxer who was rarely badly beaten. Most of his losses were close. He was only stopped once, on an injury. He defeated most of the top fighters of his era. A majority of his losses came when he was past his best. I think he has a better record than LaMotta, for example.

[McGrain]

I will give my reasons.

Yarosz's career record was 107-18-3, better than some others who have made lists here.

He fought 11 world champions. He defeated 10 of them, going 13-5 against world champions.

World champions defeated--Tommy Freeman (1-0), Vince Dundee (3-0), Ben Jeby (1-0), Pete Latzo (1-0), Babe Risko (1-2), Ken Overlin (2-0), Solly Krieger (1-0), Lou Broulliard (1-0), Billy Conn (1-2), Archie Moore (1-0)

He did not defeat Ezzard Charles (0-1)

Of the champions who defeated him, he injured his knee in his first fight against Risko and had to retire in his corner, the only time he was stopped. He had to have an operation. In the return, he again injured his knee, which hampered him. He lost the decision and had to have a second knee operation. In a third fight, he defeated Risko.
He lost two split decisions to Billy Conn, but won a third fight in 1938, the last man to beat Conn prior to the Joe Louis fights.
He lost to Charles in 1941 when obviously going back and nearing the end of his career.

Except for Charles, none of these champions proved themselves decisively better than Yarosz, who won his last fight with all of them.

Besides champions, Yarosz defeated top contenders such as Sammy Slaughter, Oscar Rankin, Al Gainer. Nate Bolden, Jimmy Reeves, and Lloyd Marshall. He defeated something like 35 or so fighters ranked when he fought them.

Yarosz was an excellent boxer who was rarely badly beaten. Most of his losses were close. He was only stopped once, on an injury. He defeated most of the top fighters of his era. A majority of his losses came when he was past his best. I think he has a better record than LaMotta, for example.


Good post.

[sugarsean]

I'm doing a top 5 because a top 10 is to difficult

My picks are based more on Hd 2 Hd
1.Marvelous Marvin Hagler
2.Sugar Ray Robinson
3.Carlos Monzon
4.Bernard "The Excutioner" Hopkins
5."The Raging Bull " Jake LaMotta

I don't include fighters that there is no film footage of {Harry Greb}

also some people may think Jake LaMotta is rated to high because of his incosistcy but Jakes best years and peformances where before he got a title shot

[Rumsfeld]

I'm doing a top 5 because a top 10 is to difficult

Then you are not going to be counted in the survey.

:smoke

[Mendoza]

The division from a historical perspective was loaded.

Here's my ten under the assumption that they could make weight at 160 pounds 48 hours before the fight.

1. Harry Greb
2. Bob Fitzsimmoms
3. Sugar Ray Robinson
4. Marvin Hagler
5. Carlos Monzon
6. Marcel Cerdan
7. Roy Jones
8. Mickey Walker
9. Sugar Ray Leonard
10. Bernard Hopkins

[Stonehands89]

1. Langford
2. Toney
3. Monzon
4. Hagler
5. Reggie "Sore Thumb" Johnson
6. Robinson
7. Burley
8. Fitzsimmons
9. Valdez
10 . Ketchell
One of those is standing out like a sore thumb. How about an explanation?

[Manassa]

:huh

How can you question Teddy Yarosz when you rate Ketchel over Hagler?

[Sweet Pea]

How can you question Teddy Yarosz when you rate Ketchel over Hagler?That's a fair point. My list sucked. I'll have to change it. Still, Yarosz has less place in a top 10 list than just about any other name mentioned in this thread outside of Reggie Johnson. My ranking of Ketchell was originally based on his potential more than anything, similar to how Sal Sanchez/Pancho Villa/Masao Ohba are ranked n their respective classes. He'd already proved himself very conclusively against guys like Sam Langford, Jack O'Brien, Billy Papke, the Sullivan twins, etc.

Still, I'm going to have a set a criteria down for my list and turn in another. I knew that was a bad idea.

[Manassa]

That's a fair point. My list sucked. I'll have to change it. Still, Yarosz has less place in a top 10 list than just about any other name mentioned in this thread outside of Reggie Johnson. My ranking of Ketchell was originally based on his potential more than anything, similar to how Sal Sanchez/Pancho Villa/Masao Ohba are ranked n their respective classes. He'd already proved himself very conclusively against guys like Sam Langford, Jack O'Brien, Billy Papke, the Sullivan twins, etc.

Still, I'm going to have a set a criteria down for my list and turn in another. I knew that was a bad idea.

Yeah I would, I wish I'd revised my light heavyweight list after I submitted it but now it's too late.

[My2Sense]

Still, Yarosz has less place in a top 10 list than just about any other name mentioned in this thread outside of Reggie Johnson.

Yarosz actually has a pretty impressive resume, but his losses to Risko and his failure to hold onto the title for long weigh heavily against him IMO.

[Rock0052]

1. Harry Greb
2. Carlos Monzon
3. Bob Fitzsimmons
4. Marvin Hagler
5. Stanley Ketchel
6. Sugar Ray Robinson
7. Jake Lamotta
8. Marcel Cerdan
9. Dick Tiger
10. Freddie Steele

I've got to post it before I change my mind....again. Too much talent.

[Tin_Ribs]

1.) Monzon
2.) Greb
3.) Robinson
4.) Hagler
5.) Tiger
6.) Williams
7.) Burley
8.) Griffith
9.) Hopkins
10.) Fitzsimmons

That took about half a minute and the only placing I feel remotely confident about is Monzon at number 1.

Fucking jaysus, this is hard.

[Sweet Pea]

Based on a mixture of ability and accomplishments, not either/or. Thus, if a fighter had a long reign but in reality was just a hack (i.e. Al McCoy), he won't be considered. If a fighter was potentially brilliant at a weight, but either failed to accomplish much or moved away from the weight class, he won't be considered. Here's the new twist, I have to have seen them on film. So, without further ado here's my revised list:

1. Carlos Monzon
2. Freddie Steele
3. Marvin Hagler
4. Ray Robinson
5. Charley Burley
6. Bernard Hopkins
7. Dick Tiger
8. Jake LaMotta
9. Joey Giardello
10. Marcel Cerdan

[Tin_Ribs]

Based on a mixture of ability and accomplishments, not either/or. Thus, if a fighter had a long reign but in reality was just a hack (i.e. Al McCoy), he won't be considered. If a fighter was potentially brilliant at a weight, but either failed to accomplish much or moved away from the weight class, he won't be considered. Here's the new twist, I have to have seen them on film. So, without further ado here's my revised list:

1. Carlos Monzon
2. Freddie Steele
3. Marvin Hagler
4. Ray Robinson
5. Charley Burley
6. Bernard Hopkins
7. Dick Tiger
8. Jake LaMotta
9. Joey Giardello
10. Marcel Cerdan


I need to check out Freddie Steele in greater depth. Nice call on Giardello, I'd forgotten about him. And LaMotta. AND Cerdan.

No Holman Williams?

[My2Sense]

2. Freddie Steele


Holy shit... :admin

[Sweet Pea]

I need to check out Freddie Steele in greater depth. Nice call on Giardello, I'd forgotten about him. And LaMotta. AND Cerdan.

No Holman Williams?There's no footage available of him to judge.

[Sweet Pea]

Holy shit... :adminQuestion?

[Manassa]

Steele's a nice inclusion but I'm not sold on his opposition. Had he been mixing with Giardello, Tiger and Fullmer (or even Joey Archer, Henry Hank and Tiger Jones, picking up an extra loss here n' there) I don't think his record would look quite as attractive.

[Sweet Pea]

Steele's a nice inclusion but I'm not sold on his opposition. Had he been mixing with Giardello, Tiger and Fullmer (or even Joey Archer, Henry Hank and Tiger Jones, picking up an extra loss here n' there) I don't think his record would look quite as attractive.The same can be said of Hagler or Hopkins. On the average I think Steele faced far better fighters than Hopkins, and just as good as Hagler. And since my criteria also takes ability into account, Steele rates about as highly as any MW I've seen on film. Very precise, calculated boxer-puncher with legit KO power and the best timing of any MW this side of Monzon.

[Manassa]

The same can be said of Hagler or Hopkins. On the average I think Steele faced far better fighters than Hopkins, and just as good as Hagler. And since my criteria also takes ability into account, Steele rates about as highly as any MW I've seen on film. Very precise, calculated boxer-puncher with legit KO power and the best timing of any MW this side of Monzon.

Yeah I was thinking of Hagler & Hopkins as I wrote it - but then justified myself by knowing they were better. I don't think Steele was all that. Very good but not quite on the same level.

Second tier with Giardello, LaMotta, Valdez and others.

[Sweet Pea]

Yeah I was thinking of Hagler & Hopkins as I wrote it - but then justified myself by knowing they were better. I don't think Steele was all that. Very good but not quite on the same level.

Second tier with Giardello, LaMotta, Valdez and others.What about Hopkins convinces you that he was first tier? His opposition was shit and he often looked less than stellar against even that caliber of opposition. Steele looks much more impressive blitzing Gus Lesnevitch than Hopkins looks in just about any fight at MW, IMO.

[Rumsfeld]

1. Carlos Monzon
2. Freddie Steele
3. Marvin Hagler
4. Ray Robinson
5. Charley Burley
6. Bernard Hopkins
7. Dick Tiger
8. Jake LaMotta
9. Joey Giardello
10. Marcel Cerdan


I haven't been following closely, but didn't you already do a completely different list?

[Sweet Pea]

I haven't been following closely, but didn't you already do a completely different list?Yeah, but Manassa had to call me out on it. For good reason. Discount that first one if you would.

[Rumsfeld]

Yeah, but Manassa had to call me out on it. For good reason. Discount that first one if you would.

So you went from Greb #1 to him being outside your top ten?

:lol:

[Sweet Pea]

So you went from Greb #1 to him being outside your top ten?

:lol:Follow a bit more closely next time.

[Bummy Davis]

1) Harry Greb
2) Sugar Ray Robinson
3) Mickey Walker
4) Carlos Monzon
5) Marvin Hagler
6) Stanley Ketchel
7) Jake Lamotta
8. Joey Giardello
9) Charley Burley
10) Marcel Cerdan

It was tough leaving out Fitz, Hopkins, Ryan,Chonski, Williams, Steele,Tiger,Griff, but we only had 10 picks

[essexboy]

1. Harry Greb
2. Carlos Monzon
3. Marvin Hagler
4. Stanley Ketchel
5. Sugar Ray Robinson
6. Bob Fitzsimmons
7. Freddie Steele
8. Dick Tiger
9. Bernard Hopkins
10. Jake LaMotta

That was agony, sorry to Marcel Cerdan, Charlie Burley, Mickey Walker, Tiger Flowers, Gene Fullmer, Bobo Olsen, Carmen Basilio, Nino Benvenuti, Emile Griffiths, Joey Giardello, Holman Williams and Mike McCallum who were all considered.

[Rumsfeld]

Follow a bit more closely next time.

I wasn't following you at all, frankly.

I'm not interested in following the course of the debate at this time, I'm just trying to make sure I get all the lists down accurately.

Please edit and delete whichever one you are NOT using so as to avoid confusion when I tabulate. Thank you.

:smoke

[Sweet Pea]

I wasn't following you at all, frankly.

I'm not interested in following the course of the debate at this time, I'm just trying to make sure I get all the lists down accurately.

:smokeThen keep your comments to yourself.

:smoke

[Rumsfeld]

Then keep your comments to yourself.

:smoke

Don't be an asshole.

Just kindly delete whichever list you are not using.


EDIT--I see you already did.
Thank you. :good

:smoke

[My2Sense]

Question?

Steele never really distinguished himself as the best MW of his era, and in fact failed when he tried to. It doesn't seem to make sense that he would be the #2 guy of all time if he might not even have been the #2 of just his decade.

[Sweet Pea]

Steele never really distinguished himself as the best MW of his era, and in fact failed when he tried to.You're referring to his second fight with Fred Apostoli (the same guy that was TKO'd by Steele earlier in his career) I assume? The fight where Steele broke his breastbone and was TKO'd in the 9th? Right after the sudden death of his mentor Dave Miller? After over 100 fights against world class opposition? C'mon, it's pretty clear that, although Apostoli may have always been a bad matchup for him, Steele was at the end of his ropes by that point. Up until then he was one of the most consistent performers of the era, and one of the most impressive fighters of that era that I've seen on film.

It doesn't seem to make sense that he would be the #2 guy of all time if he might not even have been the #2 of just his decade.The other fighters in contention are....?

And by the way, I don't necessarily believe he was the 2nd greatest MW of all time, just by the criteria I layed down.

[ChrisPontius]

And by the way, I don't necessarily believe he was the 2nd greatest MW of all time, just by the criteria I layed down.

Wasn't that kind of the idea of this thread, though?:lol:

[Sweet Pea]

Wasn't that kind of the idea of this thread, though?:lol:Yeah, but that's pretty much impossible to do accurately. Do you base it solely on their success at MW? If so how about a guy like Al McCoy? He was a very successful champion, after all.

Head to head ability? How about Roy Jones? He didn't accomplish much, but he'd have given any MW fits.

Their success at higher weights? How about Ezzard Charles or Archie Moore? Both guys that are among the very best P4P fighters of all time who started off at MW.

How do you do it? My revised list was based on a specific criteria because the first was so muddled that it ended up making little sense.

[OLD FOGEY]

Steele never really distinguished himself as the best MW of his era, and in fact failed when he tried to. It doesn't seem to make sense that he would be the #2 guy of all time if he might not even have been the #2 of just his decade.

Those fights with Apostoli don't really do that much for Steele. He stopped Apostoli in his 7th pro fight. When they fought at their peaks, in 1938, Apostoli destroyed Steele. Steele was 26 and basically that was the end of the line for him. He was at the top for about three years.

[My2Sense]

You're referring to his second fight with Fred Apostoli (the same guy that was TKO'd by Steele earlier in his career) I assume?

That, and the Hostak fight.

The fight where Steele broke his breastbone and was TKO'd in the 9th? Right after the sudden death of his mentor Dave Miller? After over 100 fights against world class opposition?

Actually, the majority of his fights weren't against world class opposition. He spent most of his career padding his record at the clubfighter level, and had only been fighting against world class comp. for a few years.

C'mon, it's pretty clear that, although Apostoli may have always been a bad matchup for him, Steele was at the end of his ropes by that point.

I don't see how it was "clear" at all, given that he had scored what was considered among his best performances a few months earlier against Ken Overlin, who was never stopped otherwise in his career, and this was after Miller had already died. It certainly doesn't seem to have been clear to people at the time. When the fight with Apostoli was made, it was generally considered as being between the two best MWs in the world at that time, and a fight that was some time overdue.



The other fighters in contention are....?

Apostoli - Not only beat Steele, but also stopped the other two title claimants at the time, Thil and Corbett. Only bullshit politics prevented him from actually holding all those titles, which no one else had come as close to doing since Walker retired. Like Steele, he also beat a host of other top fighters in the division (ie: Brouillard, Kreiger, Risko, etc.), but also beat a leading LHW contender in Bettina. Also reportedly gave a peak Zale one of his toughest fights, and almost a decade later was still good enough to beat rated contender Georgie Abrams. If there was a "best" fighter of the '30s, I'd say Apostoli has a stronger claim to be it than Steele.

Hostak - In addition to blasting out Steele in just 1 round, he also stopped Risko and Kreiger, which Steele had failed to do in multiple tries, and had a few other good KO wins.

Marcel Thil - During his heyday he beat Gorilla Jones, Jock McAvoy, Len Harvey, Kid Tunero, Lou Brouillard, and Ignacio Ara, among others.

If you wanted, you could also argue Yarosz, for the reasons Old Fogey mentioned.

And by the way, I don't necessarily believe he was the 2nd greatest MW of all time, just by the criteria I layed down.

One of your criteria was accomplishments though. Wouldn't his failure to certify his claim to the world title constitute a shortcoming in that regard?

[McGrain]

Great posts by Sweet Pea and My2Sense, I enjoyed reading.

I agree that Steele is not #2, but nobody really has a list I agree with, including my own self. I knew this weight class would be a disaster.

[fists of fury]

I liked Steele at #2. Makes for a change. Any love for Zale at all out there?

[WhataRock]

I liked Steele at #2. Makes for a change. Any love for Zale at all out there?


He wouldnt be far out of mine...but Id say for achievements, H2H ability and in the ring dominance shown on film he isnt up to most of the guys mentioned thus far.

[Beatle]

1. Harry Greb
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Sugar Ray Robinson
4. Mike Gibbons
5. Carlos Monzon
6. Eddie Booker
7. Bernard Hopkins
8. Tommy Ryan
9. Mike O'Dowd
10. Jake LaMotta

If you don't know who Eddie Booker is, check his record on boxrec. You'll notice that he was a very avoided man. Archie Moore had the courage to fight him 3 times but never beat him. Booker was never KO'd.

[McGrain]

If you don't know who Eddie Booker is, check his record on boxrec. You'll notice that he was a very avoided man. Archie Moore had the courage to fight him 3 times but never beat him. Booker was never KO'd.

Definitely a great fighter, fought through the weights, highly regarded...but i struggle to understand why he should be rated above Williams and Burley, who were contemporaries, just as highly regarded, and beat a better class of men.

[Manassa]

What about Hopkins convinces you that he was first tier? His opposition was shit and he often looked less than stellar against even that caliber of opposition. Steele looks much more impressive blitzing Gus Lesnevitch than Hopkins looks in just about any fight at MW, IMO.

His opposition wasn't great but on the contrary, I think he looked brilliant against them (most of them). The same is said of Wilfredo Gomez and Bob Foster.

With modern fighters it's easier to pick out faults because they're so well documented, so you can say Hopkins was decked here or there and looked bad against whoever. But even Ray Robinson looked bad, quite a few times.

[Manassa]

Definitely a great fighter, fought through the weights, highly regarded...but i struggle to understand why he should be rated above Williams and Burley, who were contemporaries, just as highly regarded, and beat a better class of men.

Yeah he was just slightly below them, but a bit underrated I reckon. Had a bit of a weight advantage over some of the rest.

[Sweet Pea]

That, and the Hostak fight.These are all bouts at the tail end of his career, the Hostak fight right after he'd taken a beating and broken his breastbone against Apostoli. His career was over by this time. Surely you don't think this was Steele at his best?

Actually, the majority of his fights weren't against world class opposition. He spent most of his career padding his record at the clubfighter level, and had only been fighting against world class comp. for a few years.He'd shown his stuff against world class opposition since the early 30's in his Welterweight days, against the likes of Ceferino Garcia (who he stopped in two rounds), Billy Townsend, Joe Glick, Eddie Ran when he was still a contender, Johnny Romero, a young Fred Apostoli, etc. Sure he took on his share of bums, what fighter in the entire history of the sport could you not say the same for? The bottom line is he had been fighting against world class opposition for about 6 years up until he met Apostoli and Hostak, and was badly damaged by the Hostak fight.

The rematch with Apostoli more or less ruined him. It was considered to be one of the most brutal battles in the Garden's history, a Gatti/Ward type fight on a much higher level. One that Steele was never able to recover from given the stage of his career he was at at the time and the injury he sustained in the bout. I don't put much merit into the loss to Hostak. If you want to for the Apostoli rematch, that's fine. It was a great fight, one that ruined a great fighter. I don't think it takes away from the previous 5-6 years and his 56 fight undefeated streak. He was about as good as it gets during that period.


I don't see how it was "clear" at all, given that he had scored what was considered among his best performances a few months earlier against Ken Overlin, who was never stopped otherwise in his career, and this was after Miller had already died. It certainly doesn't seem to have been clear to people at the time. When the fight with Apostoli was made, it was generally considered as being between the two best MWs in the world at that time, and a fight that was some time overdue.The fight with Overlin was another grueling battle that took it's toll on Steele. By all accounts, he took more jarring, clean shots in this fight than any other in his career up to that point. This against the man that had decisioned Apostoli about a year prior.

Yes, Steele and Apostoli were the two most highly regarded MW's in the world at the time, obviously, as Steele still had yet to lose. That goes without saying. That doesn't mean he was still at his peak. I think the damage that had accumulated over the years, and particularly in the Overlin fight you just mentioned, were really starting to take their toll on Steele by the time he fought the rematch with Apostoli. After that he was very clearly a damaged fighter, which is why I don't put much into his loss to Hostak.

Apostoli - Not only beat Steele, but also stopped the other two title claimants at the time, Thil and Corbett. Only bullshit politics prevented him from actually holding all those titles, which no one else had come as close to doing since Walker retired. Like Steele, he also beat a host of other top fighters in the division (ie: Brouillard, Kreiger, Risko, etc.), but also beat a leading LHW contender in Bettina. Also reportedly gave a peak Zale one of his toughest fights, and almost a decade later was still good enough to beat rated contender Georgie Abrams. If there was a "best" fighter of the '30s, I'd say Apostoli has a stronger claim to be it than Steele.I disagree. Steele's prime was more consistent and dominant, and against just as good opposition. Apostoli had been in around 30 fights by the time he rematched Steele, while Steele was far more ringworn by that time. He also lost to the same Ken Overlin that Steele KO'd.

Hostak - In addition to blasting out Steele in just 1 round, he also stopped Risko and Kreiger, which Steele had failed to do in multiple tries, and had a few other good KO wins.I don't think too highly of his KO of a shot Steele (don't see how you do, really), and the rest of your case wasn't too strong. I think you and I both know that Steele was the superior fighter in his prime.

Marcel Thil - During his heyday he beat Gorilla Jones, Jock McAvoy, Len Harvey, Kid Tunero, Lou Brouillard, and Ignacio Ara, among others. Very underrated fighter in his own right, but Steele had the longer reign at the top and the more impressive resume during his peak. Thil fought a lot more record-padding bums earlier in his career than Steele ever did.

One of your criteria was accomplishments though. Wouldn't his failure to certify his claim to the world title constitute a shortcoming in that regard?Depending on how you look at the word "accomplishments". I put little acclaim into paper titles, but rather the fighters beat along the way. Steele had the most impressive and consistent prime of any of the men listed. Probably one of the most impressive streaks of all time really, which is why I rate him so highly.

[frankenfrank]

One of those is standing out like a sore thumb. How about an explanation?
1.i can say that he deserves to be here more than hopkins because
his lsd12 to toney is a questioned decision , so are his 2 losses to jorge fernando castro , which both were in castro's homeland argentina. 4 of his 7 losses were split decisions and he has never been stopped DESPITE facing GREAT oposition. he beat steve collins , and sanderline williams who drew with toney. he stopped in 7 rds the ralph ward who narrowly won mcclellan in 8 rouns , even his loss to john david jackson a UD one was in one point in 2 cards and 2 points in the third so stop counting wins-losses blindly.
hopkins is the one that stands out like a 'sore thumb' , you see ?
2. i can also say that i missed someone - maybe : greb , mccallum , kalambay. the problem with those guys is that they weren't stopping their oposition enough at 160 , but so is johnson really.
i am not locked on this choice and it really can change. it's hard to think on each division separately.
weird thing is to compare collins' achievements at 160 - his 3L's to his at 168 - two stoppages of Benn and two victories over eubanks.
i believe that this list has mistakes in it. i didn't have years to think on it also becuase the reason i gave about fighters and divisions.
3 . i can see him beating every other guy in that list. and p4p he did prove himself as having a good chin that held even at 175 against GREAT OPOSITION.

[McGrain]

Yeah he was just slightly below them, but a bit underrated I reckon. Had a bit of a weight advantage over some of the rest.

I agree with you.

Although as far as weight goes, he did travel upward, too.

[Zakman]

1. Hagler
2. Monzon
3. Greb
4. Hopkins
5. Robinson
6. Fitzsimmons
7. Lamotta
8. Tiger
9. Ketchel
10. Walker

[Rumsfeld]

This is more like it, for now anyway:
1. Monzon
2. Hagler
3. Greb
4. Robinson
5. Walker
6. LaMotta
7. Hopkins
8. Griffith
9. Tiger
10. Fitzsimmons

Kindly delete whatever list you are not using by editing. Will make things much easier for me when I double-check. I assume you wanted to use this one, but still, if it's not too much trouble.

[Rumsfeld]

The Following Lists Have Been Logged:
1. Rumsfeld
2. WhataRock
3. My2Sense
4. dmt
5. Ezzard
6. ChrisPontius
7. McGrain
8. Manassa
9. mcvey
10. red cobra
11. PowerPuncher
12. teeto
13. frankenfrank
14. OLD FOGEY
15. Smith
16. Stonehands89
17. GPater11093
18. junior-soprano
19. the cobra
20. Mr Butt
21. Mendoza
22. Rock0052
23. Tin_Ribs
24. Sweet Pea
25. Bummy Davis
26. essexboy
27. Beatle
28. Zakman

[Manassa]

This was a nice idea, Rumsfeld (didn't have you down as a classic fan). I bet our lists will be much more solid than what those clowns over at IBRO put out.

[Rumsfeld]

This was a nice idea, Rumsfeld (didn't have you down as a classic fan). I bet our lists will be much more solid than what those clowns over at IBRO put out.


Thanks Manassa.

I will be the first to admit that when it comes to boxing history, I am far more of a student than teacher.

Some of the guys around here are extremely knowledgeable, and I am not too proud to admit that I'd like to learn a lot more about the rich history of the sport.

I somewhat envy the knowledge base of many a poster here in the Classic Forum, but at the same time, I also thoroughly enjoy reading their opinions and stories.

:thumbsup

[Rumsfeld]

*bump*

[Smith]

Rums, I will be altering my list, i'm going to get a bit more into one or two fighters as, as of now, my knowledge of them isn't fair to place or leave them out of a list. I'll get it up when i can in the next week.

[Rumsfeld]

Rums, I will be altering my list, i'm going to get a bit more into one or two fighters as, as of now, my knowledge of them isn't fair to place or leave them out of a list. I'll get it up when i can in the next week.


Okay....if you can, just update your list and a new post and delete your old one so as to avoid confusion when I double-check everything at the end.

Thank you!

:good

[brando18b4h]

1) SRR
2) Greb
3) Monzon
4) Hagler
5) Ketchel
6)Walker
7)Burley
8) Fitzsimmons
8) Lamotta
9) Tiger
10) Hopkins

[Boilermaker]

This is near impossible to rank, because there are so many great middleweights and of those some many that you think are extra great and rise above the field have actually done most of their best work at light heavy or welterweight, when you really analyse their work and some of these have surprisingly often struggled at the middleweight limit.

I know that it makes it easier to count with just a straight list, but there needs to be (from me at least and i dare say 90% of the other guys also) a lot of consideration and bumping and changing of the lists will happen when full thought is given. I hope this thread goes for the full month that the light heavy and heavy threads did, because to be honest it could easily go twice as long and i think most people would still come up with 10 different lists each time they sit down and try to do one.

I am going to do a first draft, but i will expect to change it before the end of the thread.

1. Bob Fitzsimmons - I cant see anyone come close his legacy at the weight is simply better than anyone else's. He was the only Middleweight ever to win the World Heavyweight title and according to the best source) he did it under the middleweight limit. He was the official world middleweight champion for about 4-5 years when he vacated the belt because he won the world Heavyweight championship. But he was the best Middleweight fighter in the world for much, much longer than this. Arguably about 20 years which is a longevity, quite simply, that no other middleweight can match or come close to matching. He Kod virtually every good middleweight that he fought.
2. Carlos Monzon - The longest reigning official middlweight champion. Was very dominant and his reign was really as good as one could ask for. Clearly a great Middleweight.

3. Marvin Hagler - Like Hagler, another great, great champion. Who ruled the roost, once he won the title until he lost his very last fight to Sugar Ray Leonard. Easily the best middleweight of his era despite the loss to Leonard and the draw to Vito Antuofermo. He was actually more dominant than Monzon, but loses the spot because he wasnt quite as consistent and has those few minor blemishes.

4. The Non Pareill Jack Dempsey - He was a little small by modern standards, but his 7 year reign was as long as anyones and he had no problem meeting the middles of his time. If it wasnt for meeting the biggest hitting middleweight of all time, who knows when or if his reign would have ended.

5. Tommy Ryan - It took a great man to claim the title while Fitzsimmons was around and Tommy Ryan was that man. Although he never met Fitz, he claimed the title for 8 years until he vacated it, which is fair achievement.

6, Mickey Walker - Won the title and kept it for about 5 years until he vacated to chase the heavyweight title. Very dominant.

7. Bernard Hopkins - Held the title for a very long time, but i think his legacy suffers due to circumstances outside his control, because of the alphabets and added weight divisions, he did not really get to assert dominance over the likes of Jones Jr, Toney, etc so one has to question how dominant his reign was compared to others.

8. Charlie Burley - Probably the best middleweight never to win the title, it is hard to fathom how the likes of Sugar Ray and others ducked this guy without receiving any criticism. Burley probably was a little unproven though, due to to circumstances outside his control.

9. Tony Zale - A long serving champion, who wasnt as dominant as the others but did hold the title long enough to establish a good legacy, although he doesnt seem to have much of a following today.

10 Sugar Ray Robinson - He was the champion for a long time, despite being a far better welterweight, struggling at the weight and losing the title often, he did have the heart and skills to win it back each time. I am a little undecided and i think that in time i might raise him in the standings, but then again i might go the other way also, as there are so many greats like Ketchell, Greb, Toney etc that havent even made the top 10. I fighter who i think might also be worth considering and he hasnt been mentioned, is Vito Antuofermo. But i will need to consider theres and other records before finalising the list

[kidargentine]

1. Carlos Monzon
2. Harry Greb
3. Sugar Ray Robinson
4. Marvin Hagler
5. Mickey Walker
6. Bob Fitzsimmons
7. Bernard Hopkins
8. Stanley Ketchal
9. Emile Griffith
10. Dick Tiger

[BoppaZoo]

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Harry Greb
4. carlos Monzon
5. Mickey Walker
6. Bernard Hopkins
7. Les Darcy
8. Mike Gibbons
9. Stanley Ketchel
10. Jake LaMotta

[BoppaZoo]

Can anyone here really tell me the reason Burley gets so much Hype in here.

Is it because Bert Sugar and his story telling. Is that the only real reason.

[McGrain]

What has Bert Sugar to do with Charley Burley? I've been reading on Burley for years and have never run into Sugar's comments on the man. What did he say?

[red cobra]

The first time I ever read about Charley Burley was in a Ring Magazine article on Archie Moore, where ol' Archie was being interviewed. In this interview he paints as good a word portrait of Burley as I've read eversince, by anyone. Moore is explicit in maintaining that Burley deserved a title shot and that he would have beaten any champion who would have given him an opportunity.

[Mr Butt]

one of the first quotes i read about burley was one from ray arcel who said he asked SRR once why dont you give burley a tittle shot and robinson replied i thought you was my friend ray

[Minotauro]

1. Harry Greb
2. Carlos Monzon
3. Sugar Ray Robinson
4. Marvin Hagler
5. Charley Burley
6. Mickey Walker
7. Bernard Hopkins
8. Holman Williams
9. Dick Tiger
10. Tiger Flowers

[Rumsfeld]

1) SRR
2) Greb
3) Monzon
4) Hagler
5) Ketchel
6)Walker
7)Burley
8) Fitzsimmons
8) Lamotta
9) Tiger
10) Hopkins

No ties.

Unless you alter your list, I'm omitting Hopkins, and assuming you have him at #11.

[McGrain]

The first time I ever read about Charley Burley was in a Ring Magazine article on Archie Moore, where ol' Archie was being interviewed. In this interview he paints as good a word portrait of Burley as I've read eversince, by anyone. Moore is explicit in maintaining that Burley deserved a title shot and that he would have beaten any champion who would have given him an opportunity.


Aye, Moore picked Burley over Robinson peak for peak.

Of course, he loved Burley and disliked Robinson...

[Axl_Nose]

1. Monzon .....

The rest can fight for the right to be 2nd .. Nobody beats a prime Monzon at 160 ..

[Axl_Nose]

Charley Burley was a sensational fighter, unfortunately like Moore he wasnt given the chances that his talent deserved, which is why its impossible to rate him above Monzon, Hagler, Greb etc ..

[Axl_Nose]

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Harry Greb
4. carlos Monzon
5. Mickey Walker
6. Bernard Hopkins
7. Les Darcy
8. Mike Gibbons
9. Stanley Ketchel
10. Jake LaMotta

How the hell can you have Hopkins at 6, Lamotta at 10 and no Dick Tiger ??
Tiger would destroy these 2, and he'd beat Gibbons too ..

[Axl_Nose]

1. Harry Greb
2. Carlos Monzon
3. Sugar Ray Robinson
4. Marvin Hagler
5. Charley Burley
6. Mickey Walker
7. Bernard Hopkins
8. Holman Williams
9. Dick Tiger
10. Tiger Flowers

Hopkins at 7 and Tiger at 9 ?? Hopkins is so over-rated on this forum. Tiger is maybe forgotten but this guy was brilliant. Rodrigo Valdez and Briscoe would beat Hopkins ..

[Axl_Nose]

Whats going on with all these top 10 lists. Some have Dick Tiger at 9 or 10 below guys like Hopkins and Lamotta, thats ridiculous. Valdez and Briscoe would destroy Hopkins and Lamotta .. Hopkins ruled a nothing Middleweight division in the 90's getting into ungainly, ugly brawls with limited guys like Echols and Allen after being schooled by Jones .. Lamotta was a tough guy who cannot be compared to a guy like Tiger ..

[WhataRock]

Whats going on with all these top 10 lists. Some have Dick Tiger at 9 or 10 below guys like Hopkins and Lamotta, thats ridiculous. Valdez and Briscoe would destroy Hopkins and Lamotta .. Hopkins ruled a nothing Middleweight division in the 90's getting into ungainly, ugly brawls with limited guys like Echols and Allen after being schooled by Jones .. Lamotta was a tough guy who cannot be compared to a guy like Tiger ..


I dont particularly disagree with your defense of Tiger...I may have made that mistake myself and didnt fix it in time before Rummy tabulated my list.

But Briscoe destroys Lamotta?? :admin Id love to see the arguement behind that one.

Valdez is tough for anybody...but wouldnt pick him to beat Hopkins let alone destroy him.

Jake can certainly be compared to Tiger...his record is nearly as good...Not quite there but its one of the better ones the division has seen.

[Axl_Nose]

I hate doing top 10 lists but im gonna have to do one as you guys are getting it all wrong ....

1. Monzon
2. Hagler
3. Greb
4. Cerdan
5. Robinson
6. Fitszimmons
7. Tiger
8. Burley
9. Ketchel
10. Hopkins

Surely this is the difinitive top 10 of true Middleweight champions, guys who operated at 160 for the majority of time in they're career ..

[Axl_Nose]

I dont particularly disagree with your defense of Tiger...I may have made that mistake myself and didnt fix it in time before Rummy tabulated my list.

But Briscoe destroys Lamotta?? :admin Id love to see the arguement behind that one.

Valdez is tough for anybody...but wouldnt pick him to beat Hopkins let alone destroy him.

Jake can certainly be compared to Tiger...his record is nearly as good...Not quite there but its one of the better ones the division has seen.

Ok i went a bit strong saying 'Briscoe DESTROYS Lamotta', i got a little passionate .. Nobody destroys Lamotta, but i see Valdez and Briscoe beating him, and im sticking up for these guys who are often forgotten but would be regarded as stellar champions if they operated at 160 today .. Can you imagine Pavlik against Valdez or Briscoe ?

[Axl_Nose]

joe calzaghe
kelly pavlik
roberto duran
verrnon forrest
sergio mora
hopkins
taylor
abraham
froch
monzon


Marcochico, we are trying to have a serious debate about Middleweights, and you've just shit in my face, what kind of list is that ??

[WhataRock]

Ok i went a bit strong saying 'Briscoe DESTROYS Lamotta', i got a little passionate .. Nobody destroys Lamotta, but i see Valdez and Briscoe beating him, and im sticking up for these guys who are often forgotten but would be regarded as stellar champions if they operated at 160 today .. Can you imagine Pavlik against Valdez or Briscoe ?


Id imagine all types of pain for poor Kelly.

[BoppaZoo]

I must be the only one to vote for Les Darcy so far.

Huge fan.

[SLAKKA]

"Who was the greatest fighter I ever fought?"

Lloyd Marshall..Knocked me down and beat me good!
Charlie Burley
Middleweight Lloyd Marshall of Sacramento last night won a decision from favored (10-7 odds) Minneapolis battler Charley Burley in the 10-round main event at Legion Stadium. Marshall floored Burley for "three" in round one and a no-count in round four. The referee gave Marshall six rounds, Burley one and the rest even.

Lloyd Marshall vs. Jake LaMotta

1944-04-21 : Jake LaMotta 158½lbs lost to Lloyd Marshall 160¼lbs by UD in round 10 of 10
Location: Arena, Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Referee: Jackie Davis

"Lloyd Marshall, the nation's #1 Light heavyweight, boxed his way to an easy 10 round victory over Jake LaMotta tonight. LaMotta, sporting a streak of eight straight victories, was no match for the Sacramento, Calif. Negro and managed to take only one round, the tenth, with a furious finish that had the fans on their feet. LaMotta's left cheekbone began to bleed in the 4th round and Marshall made the cut a target for his left jabs. In the 5th round Marshall staggered LaMotta with several hard left hooks to the jaw and body. He piled up most of his points, however, with his left jab. The Bronx Italian also suffered a split nostril in the 8th. The fastest round of the fight was the tenth. LaMotta, who had remained in a semi-crouch most of the night, opened up and tried to tag Marshall with a KO punch, but failed. Marshall took every round but the 1st and 10th on the UP scorecard. The opening canto was even as both fighters sparred for advantage." -United Press

Weights: Marshall-160¼, LaMotta-158½



Name: Lloyd Marshall
Career Record: click
Nationality: US American
Hometown: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Born: 1914-06-04
Died: 1997-08-04
Age at Death: 83
Stance: Orthodox
Height: 5′ 10″
Managers: Frank Doljack, Johnny Rogers

CBZ page
Elected into the World Boxing Hall of FameLloyd Marshall
From Boxrec Boxing Encyclopaedia
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Name: Lloyd Marshall
Career Record: click
Nationality: US American
Hometown: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Born: 1914-06-04
Died: 1997-08-04
Age at Death: 83
Stance: Orthodox
Height: 5′ 10″
Managers: Frank Doljack, Johnny Rogers

[Thread Stealer]

The first time I ever read about Charley Burley was in a Ring Magazine article on Archie Moore, where ol' Archie was being interviewed. In this interview he paints as good a word portrait of Burley as I've read eversince, by anyone. Moore is explicit in maintaining that Burley deserved a title shot and that he would have beaten any champion who would have given him an opportunity.

Moore had this quote I read in his book, something like:

"People ask me who was the best I ever fought and I tell them Marciano to make them happy, but the real best guys I faced were Burley and Booker"

[Rumsfeld]

Moore had this quote I read in his book, something like:

"People ask me who was the best I ever fought and I tell them Marciano to make them happy, but the real best guys I faced were Burley and Booker"

Was that from The Ageless Warrior? I seem to recall reading that quote, too.

[Thread Stealer]

Was that from The Ageless Warrior? I seem to recall reading that quote, too.

Yeah, I think so.

[Rumsfeld]

Yeah, I think so.

One of the few boxing books I've ever read.

I thoroughly enjoyed it.

[fists of fury]

I really like Boilermaker's list.

[Unforgiven]

1 Bob Fitzsimmons
2 Harry Greb
3 Carlos Monzon
4 Marvin Hagler
5 Ray Robinson
6 Marcel Cerdan
7 Mickey Walker
8 Holman Williams
9 Tony Zale
10 Dick Tiger

[Rumsfeld]

bump

[The Funny Man 7]

1.) Harry Greb
2.) Sugar Ray Robinson
3.) Carlos Monzon
4.) Charlie Burley
5.) Stanley Ketchel
6.) Bernard Hopkins
7.) Dick Tiger
8.) Gene Fullmer
9.) Tiger Flowers
10.) Bob Fitzsimmons

[The Funny Man 7]

Tough list to make, with LaMotta, Holman Williams, Mike Gibbons, and Tony Zale hovering around.

[Rumsfeld]

1.) Harry Greb
2.) Sugar Ray Robinson
3.) Carlos Monzon
4.) Charlie Burley
5.) Stanley Ketchel
6.) Bernard Hopkins
7.) Dick Tiger
8.) Gene Fullmer
9.) Tiger Flowers
10.) Bob Fitzsimmons

No Hagler?

[Boxing Girl]

Marvin Hagler was to be on the radio show today....sadly I think Rumsfeld might be dead :-(

[Bad_Intentions]

Marvin Hagler was to be on the radio show today....sadly I think Rumsfeld might be dead :-(
damn it :verysad.

[Manassa]

Marvin Hagler was to be on the radio show today....sadly I think Rumsfeld might be dead :-(

Fuck off you bint.

[Mr Butt]

bump

[DRMULLEN]

Heard Marvin got nervous cuz hewas gonna talk toooo me the Doc. nOT. Thought it was a recorded interview?

[The Mighty One]

1. Carlos Monzon
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Marvin Hagler
4. Harry Greb
5. Bob Fitzsimmons
6. Bernard Hopkins
7. Stanley Ketchell
8. Dick Tiger
9. Charley Burley
10. Mickey Walker

[Rumsfeld]

*bump*

[Rumsfeld]

Fuck off you bint.

Wow, you're just a miserable cocksucker in every thread, aren't you?

:smoke

[Manassa]

Wow, you're just a miserable cocksucker in every thread, aren't you?

:smoke

Gimmicky notables like yourself force me to be.

[Rumsfeld]

Gimmicky notables like yourself force me to be.

Gimmicky notables!
:lol:

Seriously, go fuck yourself.

If you're going to curse out my colleague for no damn good reason then kindly stay the fuck out of my survey threads.

:smoke

[Manassa]

Gimmicky notables!
:lol:

Seriously, go fuck yourself.

If you're going to curse out my colleague for no damn good reason then kindly stay the fuck out of my survey threads.

:smoke

What? I'm just stating fact. She is a silly bint, and likely you are the male equivalent.

:smoke:smoke:smoke

[Rumsfeld]

What? I'm just stating fact. She is a silly bint, and likely you are the male equivalent.


Spare me your across the pond derogatory slang.

Boxing Girl does a good job with the radio show, and you're unwarranted attack just makes you look like a tasteless jerk with no class.

You're an asshole, plain and simple.

Again, I reiterate, please refrain from posting in my survey threads.

Thank you.

:smoke

[Manassa]

Spare me your across the pond derogatory slang.

Boxing Girl does a good job with the radio show, and you're unwarranted attack just makes you look like a tasteless jerk with no class.

You're an asshole, plain and simple.

Again, I reiterate, please refrain from posting in my survey threads.

Thank you.

:smoke

Don't like me using your red face?

As I said, gimmicky cunt. Xenophobic, fascist cunt.

:smoke

[Boxing Girl]

Marvin Hagler will be a guest for 'On the Ropes' TODAY - Thursday, September 10 at 7 pm Eastern for a Exclusive interview about his career and what he is doing now.

LINK

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

On the Ropes is back in action with our marvelous hostess, the ravishing Miss Jenna J, along with her co-host Nick Powers and her special weekly guest, yours truly (aka-Rummy). This week’s episode will kick off with a discussion on the latest boxing news. First, we will share our thoughts on the latest edition of HBO’s 24/7—a series dedicated to the upcoming mega-bout between former pound for pound King Floyd Mayweather Junior and Mexican warrior Juan Manuel Marquez. We will also talk about the newly signed welterweight contest between Sugar Shane Mosley and Joshua Clottey which is slated to take place on December 26.

Joining us this week will be special guest Devon Alexander. In his last fight on August 1, ‘Alexander the Great’ defeated Junior Witter for the vacant WBC junior welterweight championship.. We will discuss the 22 year old Alexander’s thoughts on this fight and what it means to become such a young champion. In addition to touching on various moment’s of the young champion’s career, we will also get his opinions on the current junior welterweight scene and discuss his future plans in boxing.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Highlighting this week’s episode will be an exclusive interview with legendary middleweight champion, Marvelous Marvin Hagler. The former undisputed champion is widely regarded as the greatest 160 pound fighter to ever lace up the gloves in the historically talented middleweight division. Be sure to tune in and listen to what the all-time great former champion has to say as we discuss various moments from his long and illustrious career. We will also be asking for his input on the current boxing landscape and discuss some of Hagler’s endeavors outside the ring from his life after boxing.

Finally, we will be discussing this week’s upcoming fights. Highlighting this week’s line up is the WBA super middleweight championship contest between champion Mikkel Kessler and challenger Gusmyl Perdomo. Also slated for this week is a contest between fellow super middleweights Andre Ward and Shelby Pudwill. We will give our thoughts and predictions on these upcoming fights, and also touch on the upcoming super middleweight tournament that Kessler and Ward will both play a part in. We will also briefly touch on match-ups between James Toney and Matt Greer, Julio Cesar Chavez Junior and Jason LeHoullier, and Ivan Calderon and Rodel Mayol.

Listeners are encouraged to call in and share their thoughts on the latest boxing news.
Be sure to tune in!

To contact the show

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Rumsfeld]

Don't like me using your red face?

As I said, gimmicky cunt. Xenophobic, fascist cunt.

:smoke

Good to see that, despite your being a degenerate cunt, at least you have good taste in boxing radio shows.

:smoke

[Mr Butt]

and what time is ET 7pm to those of us in blighty

[Boxing Girl]

Good to see that, despite your being a degenerate cunt, at least you have good taste in boxing radio shows.

:smoke

I agree, he choose a rad avatar indeed :yep

[Rumsfeld]

and what time is ET 7pm to those of us in blighty

I think midnight.

[Manassa]

Good to see that, despite your being a degenerate cunt, at least you have good taste in boxing radio shows.

:smoke

What is this fucking voodoo?

[Mr Butt]

I think midnight.



thanks ,i will be listening:good

[Rumsfeld]

What is this fucking voodoo?

:lol:

[MrMarvel]

I can't participate after reading through the list. Hagler must stand a chance of coming out on top. He's number one for me.

[Rumsfeld]

I can't participate after reading through the list. Hagler must stand a chance of coming out on top. He's number one for me.

He's number one on my list, too.

Still hope you participate.
:good

If not, at the very least I hope you tune in and listen to Hagler on the radio show tonight.

:thumbsup

[Mr Butt]

bump

[Mr Butt]

great show rumsfeld

[Rumsfeld]

great show rumsfeld


Thank you!
:thumbsup

[Rumsfeld]

Bump

[JudgeDredd]

1. Robinson
2. Greb
3. Hagler
4. Monzon
5. Ketchel
6. Walker
7. Burley
8. Lamotta
9. Turpin
10. Hopkins

[GPater11093]

1. Monzon
2. Hagler
3. Robinson
4. Greb
5. Tiger
6. Hopkins
7. Walker
8. Burley
9. Giardello
10. Ketchell

[dmille]

1. Monzon
2. Hagler
3. Hopkins
4. Greb
5. Ketchel
6. Fitzsimmons
7. Flowers
8. Tiger
9. LaMotta
10. Cerdan

[anarci]

1.HAGLER 2.MONZON 3.GREB 4.HOPKINS 5.ROBINSON 6.BURLEY 7.FLOWERS 8.WALKER 9.KETCHEL 10.LAMOTTA ...... This was really tough in fact id have no problem with whatever order you put the top 5 cuz you could make a case for all of them

[Mr Butt]

bump

[Rumsfeld]

bump

Thank you! :good

I have just officially extended the deadline two days.

The FINAL DEADLINE will be September 21.

On Sunday the 20, I will be wasted this weekend, and on Monday the 21, I have the "On the Ropes" boxing radio show, so I can probably begin tallying by the 22 or even the night of the 21st.

BTW, this week, we will be having a very special guest who I think the Classic Forum will be very interested in hearing from.

[McGrain]

BTW, this week, we will be having a very special guest who I think the Classic Forum will be very interested in hearing from.

If it's not Elbows McFadden, i'm not interested.

[mcvey]

It's not ,it's Young Griffo.

[McGrain]

Fuck Young Griffo.

[Rumsfeld]

If it's not Elbows McFadden, i'm not interested.

:lol:

I'm pretty sure you will be interested.

I just got news of confirmation today. I'm just waiting to tell my esteemed colleague and Boss of the news, as I think she deserves to hear it before anyone else.

:good

[rekcutnevets]

Ray Robinson
Carlos Monzon
Marvin Hagler
Harry Greb
Bernard Hopkins
Holman Williams
Charley Burley
Dick Tiger
Freddie Steele- Courtesy of Sweet Pea's argument
Teddy Yarosz- Old Fogey sold me

[essexboy]

bump

[Boxing Girl]

1. Hagler
2. Monzon
3. Greb
4. Robinson
5. Hopkins
6. Tiger
7. Burley
8. Fitzimmons
9. Lamotta
10. Walker

[Rumsfeld]

One more day.

[road_warrior_99]

1.marvin hagler
2.carlos monzon
3.roy jones jr.
4.bernard hopkins
5.harry greb
6.sugar ray robinson
7.stanley ketchel
8.mickey walker
9.nino benvenuti
10. tommy hearns

[Mendoza]

Drum roll please......

[jaffay]

1 Carlos Monzon
2 Marvin Hagler
3 Harry Greb
4 Sugar Ray Robinson
5 Jake LaMotta
6 Charley Burley
7 Holman Williams
8 Bernard Hopkins
9 Mickey Walker
10 Dick Tiger

[Rumsfeld]

1 carlos monzon
2 marvin hagler
3 harry greb
4 sugar ray robinson
5 jake lamotta
6 charley burley
7 holman williams
8 bernard hopkins
9 mickey walker
10 dick tiger

poll closed.

[Rumsfeld]

1) SRR
2) Greb
3) Monzon
4) Hagler
5) Ketchel
6)Walker
7)Burley
8) Fitzsimmons
8) Lamotta
9) Tiger
10) Hopkins

I'm leaving Hopkins off your list.

What is so hard to understand about making a straightforward top ten list with no ties?

:lol:

[essexboy]

Any idea how long its gonna take Rummy bruv? Not that I'm rushing you I'm just desperate to find out the final rankings.

[Rumsfeld]

The Following Lists Have Been Logged:
1. Rumsfeld
2. WhataRock
3. My2Sense
4. dmt
5. Ezzard
6. ChrisPontius
7. McGrain
8. Manassa
9. mcvey
10. red cobra
11. PowerPuncher
12. teeto
13. frankenfrank
14. OLD FOGEY
15. Smith
16. Stonehands89
17. GPater11093
18. junior-soprano
19. the cobra
20. Mr Butt
21. Mendoza
22. Rock0052
23. Tin_Ribs
24. Sweet Pea
25. Bummy Davis
26. essexboy
27. Beatle
28. Zakman
29. brando18b4h
30. Boilermaker
31. kidargentine
32. BoppaZoo
33. Minotauro
34. Axl_Nose
35. Unforgiven
36. The Funny Man 7
37. The Mighty One
38. JudgeDredd
39. Gpater11093
40. dmille
41. anarci
42. rekcutnevets
43. Boxing Girl
44. road_warrior_99
45. jaffay

[Rumsfeld]

Any idea how long its gonna take Rummy bruv? Not that I'm rushing you I'm just desperate to find out the final rankings.

I'll post the final rankings shortly.

As for the detailed breakdown, probably later tonight, and hopefully I will have my write-up done tomorrow.

:good

Did someone really give Roy Jones a first place vote here, or am I forgetting some other Jones middleweight?

:lol:

[red cobra]

here goes:
1. Carlos Monzon
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Harry Greb
4. Sugar Ray Robinson
5. Emile Griffith
6. Dick Tiger
7. Joey Giardello
8. Rodrigo Valdez
9. Mickey Walker
9. Stanley Ketchel
10. Bernard Hopkins

[red cobra]

oops...disregard the previous post..my first list stands

[Rumsfeld]

oops...disregard the previous post..my first list stands

If you want, I haven't gotten all the names down right yet, so I can still amend your list. Please let me know soon, and I will adjust.

:good

[essexboy]

I'll post the final rankings shortly.

As for the detailed breakdown, probably later tonight, and hopefully I will have my write-up done tomorrow.

:good

Did someone really give Roy Jones a first place vote here, or am I forgetting some other Jones middleweight?

:lol:

Yeah there was some weird ones. I seem to remember ones guy's being seriously bad, I wont mention his name. Reggie Johnson at no.5 or something and James Toney top or second, I was like WHAAAAT? :lol:

Good work though mate, I look forward to reading the breakdown, always interesting and thought-provoking. :good

[Rumsfeld]

essexboy, I sent you a pm. Please disregard.

I figured it all out and will post results shortly.

:thumbsup

[essexboy]

essexboy, I sent you a pm. Please disregard.

I figured it all out and will post results shortly.

:thumbsup

I just sent a reply but no worries. :good

[red cobra]

If you want, I haven't gotten all the names down right yet, so I can still amend your list. Please let me know soon, and I will adjust.

:goodok..and thanks...the list I sent just a while ago that I said to disregard in the next post....that's the one I like better...:deal

[red cobra]

The list in post #185.

[Rumsfeld]

I just sent a reply but no worries. :good

Thanks for your help, I did get both replied, and appreciate it. I was able to figure it out and I concur with what you said, so I'm confident I got everything right.

Will post in two minutes.

Thanks again!
:good

[Rumsfeld]

here goes:
1. Carlos Monzon
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Harry Greb
4. Sugar Ray Robinson
5. Emile Griffith
6. Dick Tiger
7. Joey Giardello
8. Rodrigo Valdez
9. Mickey Walker
9. Stanley Ketchel
10. Bernard Hopkins

You're good!
:good

OFFICIALLY CLOSED!

[essexboy]

Thanks for your help, I did get both replied, and appreciate it. I was able to figure it out and I concur with what you said, so I'm confident I got everything right.

Will post in two minutes.

Thanks again!
:good

No worries.

[Rumsfeld]

I'll try and get more details up later tonight, but here's the basic results:

1. 736 Carlos Monzon
2. 718 Harry Greb
3. 606 Marvin Hagler
4. 513 Sugar Ray Robinson
5. 214 Bernard Hopkins
6. 155 Bob Fitzsimmons
7. 140 Charles Burley
8. 121 Stanley Ketchel
9. 120 Mickey Walker
10. 116 Dick Tiger

Also getting votes:
53 Roy Jones Junior
47 Jake LaMotta
45 Holman Williams
32 Marcel Cerdan
30 Tiger Flowers
25 Sam Langford
22 Freddie Steele
17 Joey Giardello
17 James Toney
16 Tommy Ryan
15 Emile Griffith
13 Mike Gibbons
13 Jack 'The Nonpareil' Dempsey
8 Reggie Johnson
5 Eddie Booker
5 Teddy Yarosz
4 Tony Zale
4 Les Darcy
3 Gene Fullmer
2 Mike O'Dowd
2 Nino Benvenuti
2 Rodrigo Valdez
2 Sugar Ray Leonard
2 Randy Turpin
1 Lloyd Marshall
1 Tommy Hearns

[essexboy]

Nice I cant help feeling Sugar Ray is a little high at fourth, I think theres other guys who deserve to be above him at middleweight, Hopkins is high as well. The top three are gonna be controversial, especially Hagler third. Im glad with the bottom half though those guys all deserve to be in, especially the underrated Burley. Right top ten might change the order by moving Robinson and Hopkins down, but its close enough. Only one its a shame to really leave out is LaMotta but its a division packed full of talent and he cant really replace anyone in the top ten.

[Rumsfeld]

1. 736 Carlos Monzon (13)
2. 718 Harry Greb (15)
3. 606 Marvin Hagler (8 )
4. 513 Sugar Ray Robinson (5)
5. 214 Bernard Hopkins
6. 155 Bob Fitzsimmons (2)
7. 140 Charles Burley
8. 121 Stanley Ketchel
9. 120 Mickey Walker
10. 116 Dick Tiger
11. 53 Roy Jones Junior (1)
12. 47 Jake LaMotta
13. 45 Holman Williams
14. 32 Marcel Cerdan
15. 30 Tiger Flowers
16. 25 Sam Langford (1)
17. 22 Freddie Steele
18. 17 [tie] Joey Giardello
18. 17 [tie] James Toney
20. 16 Tommy Ryan
21. 15 Emile Griffith
22. 13 [tie] Mike Gibbons
22. 13 [tie] Jack 'The Nonpareil' Dempsey
24. 8 Reggie Johnson
25. 5 [tie] Eddie Booker
25. 5 [tie] Teddy Yarosz
27. 4 [tie] Tony Zale
27. 4 [tie] Les Darcy
29. 3 Gene Fullmer
30. 2 [tie] Mike O'Dowd
30. 2 [tie] Nino Benvenuti
30. 2 [tie] Rodrigo Valdez
30. 2 [tie] Sugar Ray Leonard
30. 2 [tie] Randy Turpin
35. 1 [tie] Lloyd Marshall
35. 1 [tie] Tommy Hearns

36 Fighters received votes

Here is the distribution of votes.
TOTAL LISTS MADE - NAME - (1st-2nd-3rd-4-5-6-7-8-9-10)

45 Carlos Monzon (13 16 10 3 2 1 0 0 0 0)
42 Harry Greb (15 11 10 5 1 0 0 0 0 0)
43 Marvin Hagler (8 8 10 15 2 0 0 0 0 0)
44 Sugar Ray Robinson (5 7 9 10 6 4 1 0 1 1)
39 Bernard Hopkins (0 0 2 5 7 9 5 2 4 5)
22 Bob Fitzsimmons (2 1 1 0 3 6 1 6 0 2)
30 Charles Burley (0 0 0 3 3 5 10 4 4 1)
26 Stanley Ketchel (0 0 0 1 8 2 4 2 6 3)
32 Mickey Walker (0 0 1 0 4 6 3 5 6 7)
33 Dick Tiger (0 0 0 0 4 4 6 9 3 7)
4 Roy Jones Junior (1 0 2 0 0 0 1 0 0 0)
19 Jake LaMotta (0 0 0 0 1 0 3 4 4 7)
11 Holman Williams (0 0 0 0 1 3 3 3 0 1)
9 Marcel Cerdan (0 0 0 1 0 2 0 3 0 3)
12 Tiger Flowers (0 0 0 0 0 1 3 1 3 4)
1 Sam Langford (1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0)
4 Freddie Steele (0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1)
6 Joey Giardello (0 0 0 0 0 0 2 1 3 0)
2 James Toney (0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0)
3 Tommy Ryan (0 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0)
4 Emile Griffith (0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 2 0)
2 Mike Gibbons (0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0)
2 Jack 'The Nonpareil' Dempsey (0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0)
1 Reggie Johnson (0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0)
1 Eddie Booker (0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0)
2 Teddy Yarosz (0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1)
2 Tony Zale (0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0)
1 Les Darcy (0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0)
1 Gene Fullmer (0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0)
1 Mike O'Dowd (0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0)
1 Nino Benvenuti (0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0)
1 Rodrigo Valdez (0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0)
1 Sugar Ray Leonard (0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0)
1 Randy Turpin (0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0)
1 Lloyd Marshall (0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1)
1 Tommy Hearns (0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1)

[Rumsfeld]

1. Carlos Monzon
Total Lists: 45 (100%)
First Place: 13 (28.9%)
Top Three: 39 (86.7%)
Top Five: 44 (97.8%)
Average Points: 15.7

2.Harry Greb
Total Lists: 42 (93.3%)
First Place: 15 (33.3%)
Top Three: 36 (80.0%
Top Five: 42 (93.3%)
Average Points: 15.3

3. Marvin Hagler
Total Lists: 43 (95.6%)
First Place: 8 (17.8%)
Top Three: 26 (57.8%)
Top Five: 43 (95.6%)
Average Points: 12.9

4. Sugar Ray Robinson
Total Lists: 44 (97.8%)
First Place: 5 (11.1%)
Top Three: 21 (46.7%)
Top Five: 37 (82.2%)
Average Points: 10.9

5. Bernard Hopkins
Total Lists: 39 (86.7%)
First Place: 0 (0%)
Top Three: 2 (4.5%)
Top Five: 14 (31.1%)
Average Points: 4.6

6. Bob Fitzsimmons
Total Lists: 22 (48.9%)
First Place: 2 (4.5%)
Top Three: 4 (8.9%)
Top Five: 7 (15.6%)
Average Points: 3.3

7. Charles Burley
Total Lists: 30 (66.7%)
First Place: 0 (0%)
Top Three: 0 (0%)
Top Five: 6 (13.3%)
Average Points: 3.0

8. Stanley Ketchel
Total Lists: 26 (57.8%)
First Place: 0 (0%)
Top Three: 0 (0%)
Top Five: 9 (20.0%)
Average Points: 2.6

9. Mickey Walker
Total Lists: 32 (71.1%)
First Place: 0 (0%)
Top Three: 1 (2.2%)
Top Five: 5 (11.1%)
Average Points: 2.6

10. Dick Tiger
Total Lists: 33 (73.3%)
First Place: 0 (0%)
Top Three:0 (0%)
Top Five: 4 (8.9%)
Average Points: 2.5

[ripcity]

4. Sugar Ray Robinson. I'm kind of suprised.

[Rumsfeld]

4. Sugar Ray Robinson. I'm kind of suprised.

Please elaborate.

[McGrain]

Great list. Gutted Holman Williams missed out, but I think it turned out nice. Who are the three weridies that didn't put Harry Greb on their MW list? Probably they should be flayed.

[Ezzard]

Overrall the top 10 is excellent. The next 10 though are odd.

Jones' brief career at the weight is considered superior to Lloyd Marshall, La Motta, Griffith, Benvenuti, Flowers???

Come on, Ezzard Charles has a far superior MW record to Roy.

I think his ranking at 11 is a real own goal.

[fists of fury]

Close between Monzon and Greb...very close. Monzon's lowest plaing was 6th, with Greb's being 5th.
Greb also received more first place votes.

Overall the list looks good.

[fists of fury]

I think his ranking at 11 is a real own goal.

I'd agree, but since he's so fresh in people's minds, it's no real surprise.

[Ezzard]

I'd agree, but since he's so fresh in people's minds, it's no real surprise.

You're right.

I think demographics always plays a big part in these lists.

[ripcity]

Please elaborate.
It is almost blaphmay to rank Robinson as anything less than the greatest boxer who not only ever lived but will ever live. Yet there were 3 boxers who rank a head of him in this poll at 160. That is why I was suprised by Robinson being ranked #4 instead of #1.

[Sweet Pea]

It is almost blaphmay to rank Robinson as anything less than the greatest boxer who not only ever lived but will ever live. Yet there were 3 boxers who rank a head of him in this poll at 160. That is why I was suprised by Robinson being ranked #4 instead of #1.
The greatest P4P boxer, not the greatest MW. Pretty simple distinction.

[ripcity]

The greatest P4P boxer, not the greatest MW. Pretty simple distinction.
True but Robinson split his career between 147 & 160 (there was no 154 as far as I know back than). With only two weight classes that he fought as. It seemes that he would rank higher than 4. 1 or a very close 2 was what I was expecting. It will be intresting to see how he ranks at 147 hear at ESB.

[Rumsfeld]

Great list. Gutted Holman Williams missed out, but I think it turned out nice. Who are the three weridies that didn't put Harry Greb on their MW list? Probably they should be flayed.

I am equally disturbed that two people omitted Hagler from their list. WTF?

At least with Hagler, I mean, he should be fresher in the minds of those less knowledgeable.

Other than that, I think the three lists we've done so far are pretty good.

I think you, and the other regulars who are far more knowledgeable than me on the sport's history for your continued participation.

:cheers

I even plan to quote you in my article for this one, McGrain.

:good

[Rumsfeld]

The greatest P4P boxer, not the greatest MW. Pretty simple distinction.

That would be my thought as well.

At the end of the day, I fully expect Ray Robinson to have #1 for welters, #1 for P4P, and with the #4 ranking at middleweight....that speaks volumes of how he is perceived.

[ripcity]

That would be my thought as well.

At the end of the day, I fully expect Ray Robinson to have #1 for welters, #1 for P4P, and with the #4 ranking at middleweight....that speaks volumes of how he is perceived.
With Robinson at #4 at 160 I expect him to be the run away choice for #1 at 147 when we do a poll for that weight. espicily if he is the best of all time.

[Rumsfeld]

With Robinson at #4 at 160 I expect him to be the run away choice for #1 at 147 when we do a poll for that weight. espicily if he is the best of all time.


The welterweight poll is already underway!

:good

After that, I intend to do (in this order):
* lightweight
* featherweight
* bantamweight
* flyweight
* P4P

And if I still have time, then we will go:
* cruiserweight
* super middle
* junior middle
* junior welter
* super feather
* super bantam
* super fly
* junior fly

[essexboy]

The welterweight poll is already underway!

:good

After that, I intend to do (in this order):
* lightweight
* featherweight
* bantamweight
* flyweight
* P4P

And if I still have time, then we will go:
* cruiserweight
* super middle
* junior middle
* junior welter
* super feather
* super bantam
* super fly
* junior fly

P4P will be very interesting.

[rekcutnevets]

I'm surprised how high Hopkins made it. I have no problems, as I had him up there myself. It just seems that a year or so ago, people were getting ripped for having that opinion. Maybe that wasn't in this forum, but I believe it was.

[Rumsfeld]

For anyone who was interested, I did my middleweight write up.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[My2Sense]

I just realized, I probably should've squeezed Mike Gibbons into my list. :patsch

[Black Eyes To You]

No Fullmer. Pfft