Most Wins Over Linear Champions?

[The Kurgan]

Seems like an obvious statistic to be interested in, but I'm not aware of who holds the record. Is it Henry Armstrong?

[TBooze]

I suppose it could be argued on what you consider a linear champ?

Working on for arguments sake the BBB of C Yearbook, universal champs being listed in black, I guess Lewis and Brittan beat each other a few times; as for different fighters then probably Robinson by a mile.

[frankenfrank]

over reigning ones or at all ?

[WhataRock]

Without even looking into it there is probably as massive chance its Greb.

As long as you mean fighters who were, would become or had been Linear champs..not just the linear champ when he beat them.

[Rumsfeld]

Without even looking into it there is probably as massive chance its Greb.

That seems like a reasonable guess.

:lol:

Off the top of my head, Holyfield I believe has 3 such victories? I'm trying to think of someone who has more than that in modern times, and nothing is jumping to mind.

Robinson has several I can think of.

Can anyone think of examples where someone had 4 or 5 such victories?

[Rumsfeld]

over reigning ones or at all ?

Interesting qualifier. I wasn't even considering that.

[TBooze]

On my standard that I wrote in my first post for universal recognition.

Ray Robinson beat the following reigning generally considered universal champions:

Jake LaMotta
Randy Turpin
Bobo Olson
Gene Fullmer
Carmen Basilio

He also beat the following former/future generally considered universal champions:

Sammy Angott (three times)
Marty Servo (twice)
Fritzie Zivic (twice)
Jake LaMotta (four times)
Henry Armstrong
Kid Gavilan (twice)
Bobo Olson (twice)
Rocky Graziano

So I make that five wins over reigning champs, 17 over former/future champs, 22 overall...

[PowerPuncher]

Holyfield has it at HW I think beating:

Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Bowe, Douglas

[Jear]

Holyfield has it at HW I think beating:

Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Bowe, Douglas

Ali has Patterson, Liston, Frazier, Foreman and Spinks, plus Moore and Foster

Holy has Moorer too by the way

[Unforgiven]

Holy has Moorer too by the way

....... and Rahman.

[Manassa]

Joe Louis has a few.

Jack Sharkey
Max Schmeling
Primo Carnera
Jim Braddock
Max Baer
John Henry Lewis
Billy Conn (x2)
Jersey Joe Walcott

[Unforgiven]

Holyfield has eight wins over heavyweight linear champions.

Douglas
Foreman
Holmes
Bowe
Tyson x2
Moorer
Rahman

Plus two wins over former linear light-heavyweight champion
Qawi x2

By my calculations, him, Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali are tied with TEN wins each over linear champions.

But Ezzard Charles has at least twelve wins over linear champions, but the majority of them are wins over light-heavyweight champions.

[PowerPuncher]

Holyfield has eight wins over heavyweight linear champions.

Douglas
Foreman
Holmes
Bowe
Tyson x2
Moorer
Rahman

Plus two wins over former linear light-heavyweight champion
Qawi x2

By my calculations, him, Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali are tied with TEN wins each over linear champions.

But Ezzard Charles has at least twelve wins over linear champions, but the majority of them are wins over light-heavyweight champions.

Well done I knew he had more and couldnt think of them

[The Kurgan]

over reigning ones or at all ?

At all.

[The Kurgan]

Holyfield has eight wins over heavyweight linear champions.

Douglas
Foreman
Holmes
Bowe
Tyson x2
Moorer
Rahman

Plus two wins over former linear light-heavyweight champion
Qawi x2

By my calculations, him, Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali are tied with TEN wins each over linear champions.

But Ezzard Charles has at least twelve wins over linear champions, but the majority of them are wins over light-heavyweight champions.

Any weight category will do, hence my thinking that Henry Armstrong might have a good shot.

[Jear]

Holyfield has eight wins over heavyweight linear champions.

Douglas
Foreman
Holmes
Bowe
Tyson x2
Moorer
Rahman

Plus two wins over former linear light-heavyweight champion
Qawi x2

By my calculations, him, Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali are tied with TEN wins each over linear champions.

But Ezzard Charles has at least twelve wins over linear champions, but the majority of them are wins over light-heavyweight champions.

Is Qawi really a linear champion. Foster lost to Wassajah who lost to Spinks. I know Qawi was the recognised champion but not sure he is a linear champ.

[WhataRock]

Is Qawi really a linear champion. Foster lost to Wassajah who lost to Spinks. I know Qawi was the recognised champion but not sure he is a linear champ.


Wassajah didnt beat Bob for his title though..Bob retired after that draw he had and Mustfa beat him in a 8 or 10 rounder when Bob was on the comeback trail..The lineage started again with MSM Im pretty sure and when Dwight beat him he became the new lineal champ.

[Jear]

Wassajah didnt beat Bob for his title though..Bob retired after that draw he had and Mustfa beat him in a 8 or 10 rounder when Bob was on the comeback trail..The lineage started again with MSM Im pretty sure and when Dwight beat him he became the new lineal champ.

True but Holmes isnt considered linear until Ali, Lewis likewise beating Briggs etc. Foster was only out for a year and MSM was recognised as the "linear" champ after Marvin Johnson won the WBA version in 1980? based on a retrospective win over Johnson in 1979, which was after Wassaja had beaten Foster in 78. It was a stoppage victory Mustaffa had over Bob

Lineage is passed in the ring and is only given to a unified champ if previous champ does not return. This is why i dont consider Hart and Burns linear, Johnson won that title against the comebacking Jeffries

[WhataRock]

True but Holmes isnt considered linear until Ali, Lewis likewise beating Briggs etc. Foster was only out for a year and MSM was recognised as the "linear" champ after Marvin Johnson won the WBA version in 1980? based on a retrospective win over Johnson in 1979, which was after Wassaja had beaten Foster in 78. It was a stoppage victory Mustaffa had over Bob

Lineage is passed in the ring and is only given to a unified champ if previous champ does not return. This is why i dont consider Hart and Burns linear, Johnson won that title against the comebacking Jeffries


So you believe Wassaja has a claim to the lineal title? :huh

Cant agree with that mate, if thats what you mean.

Bob retired..he indicated at the time he didnt want to fight on..so all of his titles, official and unofficial were vacated.

The Wassaja fight was a non-title fight and wasnt even at light heavy.

Sometimes its just not possible for the lineage to past on like that when a fighter relinquishes his claim to it without losing. It has to begin somewhere else...interesting to note that the Bantamweight division hasnt had a linear titlist since the 80's I think.

[KOTF]

How do we even know Wassaja-Foster was even fought at LHW anyway there's no recorded weights for that fight

[WhataRock]

How do we even know Wassaja-Foster was even fought at LHW anyway there's no recorded weights for that fight


Yeah there isnt..I thought it they both weighed in over the limit but boxrec doesnt have the weights at all. Must have mixed that up.

There is a decent chance is wasnt though considering it was an 8 rounder and Bob hadnt been south of light heavy in his last couple of fights.

[Jear]

So you believe Wassaja has a claim to the lineal title? :huh

Cant agree with that mate, if thats what you mean.

Bob retired..he indicated at the time he didnt want to fight on..so all of his titles, official and unofficial were vacated.

The Wassaja fight was a non-title fight and wasnt even at light heavy.

Sometimes its just not possible for the lineage to past on like that when a fighter relinquishes his claim to it without losing. It has to begin somewhere else...interesting to note that the Bantamweight division hasnt had a linear titlist since the 80's I think.

Foreman Briggs wasnt a title fight either but lineage was past on in that fight

Lewis retired and lineage is still up in the air

[WhataRock]

Foreman Briggs wasnt a title fight either but lineage was past on in that fight

Lewis retired and lineage is still up in the air


Not comparable to the Foster-Wassaja situation at all though mate.

The Briggs fights was over the title distance and it could be said they were fighting for a title, the linear one.

Bob and Mustafa were fighting an 8 rounder..which probably wasnt even under the lightheavy limit...so how can that have any bearing on the lineage of the 175 division?

[Jear]

Not comparable to the Foster-Wassaja situation at all though mate.

The Briggs fights was over the title distance and it could be said they were fighting for a title, the linear one.

Bob and Mustafa were fighting an 8 rounder..which probably wasnt even under the lightheavy limit...so how can that have any bearing on the lineage of the 175 division?

My issue is more MSM being considered the linear champ based on a retrospective victory over someone who would in the future win a title. I just see a more obvious lineage through Foster Wassaja Spinks especially when it happened prior to MSM Johnson.
Do you consider Holmes the linear champ prior to beating Ali? Ali had retired and therefore given up all his titles, Holmes also never unified the titles, Is there an arguement that he was not a linear champion?

I appreciate your point and if it was over the limit then fair enough. I have not seen any documentation that says it was and only ever seen in refered to as a LHW bout.

[GPater11093]

Pacquiao has 5 over reigning Linear champs

[janitor]

Harry Greb beat 14 lineal champions or 18 if you include certain claimants.

Not to lousy I guess.