Am I Being Unfair to MMA?

[lamarn403]

I am a boxing aficionado and student as well. I love learning about the the Ezzard Charles' and Emile Griffiths' of boxing as much as watching a classic boxing match. There for I concede I am bias in my comparison of boxing and mixed martial arts. However, I am a sports fan in general and can appreciate most sports. I respect the athletisim of mma fighters and am particularly fond of the mastery of multiple martial art techniques some mma fighters posess. But yet I struggle to watch a MMA match and fail to comprehend the ethusiasm of it's rapidly growing fan base. So I ask my fellow sweet science loyalist to give me an comprehensive argument pro mixed martial arts, and why boxing fans should embrace it. Your help is respected and appreciated.

[eze]

It's an art of multiple arts.

So many disciplines apply to MMA. While with boxing, you just get striking.

[kirk]

Boxing is the way of warriors....
two men trying to beat the other with their fists, toe to toe, on their feet.

Its a sport of heart, soul, and chin,
its a sport of power, speed, and accuracy, It iss a sport of toughness, intelligance, timing, and skills, and through these, boxing finds its champions.
It is the ultimate perfection through reduction.... seperating all that is base from combat and leaving you with the substance that is the essence of the ultimate warrior..... and boxers take the most punishment, and are some of the toughest people in the world.


To say 'boxing is just striking' is such an oversimplification.... of course its just striking. But how many differant styles do you have within that?
You have the toney style, the whitaker style, the hatton style, the spinks style, the judah style, the cotto style, the trinidad style, the winky style, the foreman style, the ali style, the frazier style,

Got pitty patters like JC
Got brawlers like mayorga
Got pure boxers like malignaggi
Got killers like Tyson
Got ferocity monsters like Kirkland
Got technicions like Marquez

You have differant styles of defence, shell defence, philly defence, differant style of footwork, ect, ect

Boxing is more then 'just striking', in the same way music is more then just a man saying words.

Boxing is perfection through reduction, fighting at its purest level.

MMA is also an art form, and i respect it.... but its just like trying to hold a match next to a star, and asking me to be impressed with the match. its hard to be effected by one when the other is so grand.

Am i romanticising it? yes i am.... but thats what boxing does to me.

how that at all answeres your question lol.... i dont know, i just had to post that lol. sorry

[lzolnier]

It's like a Fraiser fan trying to convince a Seinfeld fan to watch.


MMA takes just as much effort and skill as boxing, if for no other reason, than to avoid trying to get your ass crucified by your opponent. Both boxing and MMA matches can be dull. But great MMA fights are just as exciting as great boxing fights. One advantage that UFC has managed to have is to create more competative match ups more frequently, to the extent that its rare for a fighter to have a long undefeated record and next to impossible for fighters to pad their records for very long. Also, the greats of MMA stack up very well athletically and skill wise against boxing elites. I mean can you imagine a cream puff like W. Klit. taking on someone like Emelianenko in a street fight?

[GazOC]

It's like a Fraiser fan trying to convince a Seinfeld fan to watch.




Frasier KO1 Seinfeld.:good

[VX.Nefarious]

It's like a Fraiser fan trying to convince a Seinfeld fan to watch.


MMA takes just as much effort and skill as boxing, if for no other reason, than to avoid trying to get your ass crucified by your opponent. Both boxing and MMA matches can be dull. But great MMA fights are just as exciting as great boxing fights. One advantage that UFC has managed to have is to create more competative match ups more frequently, to the extent that its rare for a fighter to have a long undefeated record and next to impossible for fighters to pad their records for very long. Also, the greats of MMA stack up very well athletically and skill wise against boxing elites. I mean can you imagine a cream puff like W. Klit. taking on someone like Emelianenko in a street fight?



even the most exiting MMA fights are not much compared to Boxing's most exiting matches, to me atleast.

all that wrestling to me is BORING AS FUCK, not to mention gay.

[Hozumi's Hook]

even the most exiting MMA fights are not much compared to Boxing's most exiting matches, to me atleast.

all that wrestling to me is BORING AS FUCK, not to mention gay.

this.

[VX.Nefarious]

Boxing is the way of warriors.... two men trying to beat the other with their fists, toe to toe, on their feet.

Its a sport of heart, soul, chin, its a sport of power, speed, accuracy, Its a sport of toughness, intelligance, timing, and skills, and through these boxing finds its champions. Its the ultimate perfection through reduction.... seperating all that is base from combat and leaving you with the substance that is the ultimate warrior..... and boxers take the most punishment, and are some of the toughest people in the world.


To say 'boxing is just striking' is such an oversimplification.... of course its just striking. But how many differant styles do you have within that?
You have the toney style, the mayorga style, the hatton style, the spinks style, the judah style, the cotto style, the trinidad style, the winky style, the foreman style, the ali style,

Got pitty patters like JC
Got brawlers like mayorga
Got pure boxers like malignaggi
Got killers like Tyson
Got ferocity monsters like Kirkland
Got technicions like Marquez

You have differant styles of defence, differant style of footwork,

Boxing is more then 'just striking'

Boxing is perfection through reduction, fighting at its purest level.

MMA is also an art form, and i respect it.... its just like trying to hold a match next to a star, its hard to be effected by one when the other is so grand.

Am i romanticising it? yes i am.... but thats what boxing does to me.

how that at all answeres your question lol.... i dont know, i just had to post that lol. sorry

AMEN:bowdown

[Dismantled]

It's an art of multiple arts.

So many disciplines apply to MMA. While with boxing, you just get striking.

Jack of all trades, master of none.








P.S.

Don't forget the main discipline they must master: the missionary position.

[lzolnier]

even the most exiting MMA fights are not much compared to Boxing's most exiting matches, to me atleast.

all that wrestling to me is BORING AS FUCK, not to mention gay.

Greco-Roman wrestling has a rich history in sports, that is very likely older than boxing. Also, not all MMA fights involve a lot of wrestling. It all depends on the fighters' martial arts expertise, pointing to another MMA strength - its versatility and variety. I like and can enjoy both. I can understand the backlash of some fans that feel MMA has been hyped up and propped up by pimply teenagers, ex-fans of WWF and psychos who just like to watch street brawls. But I think the hype is beggning to scale down and the sport has entered its mature phase. Both sports can learn a lot from each other.

[VX.Nefarious]

Jack of all trades, master of none.








P.S.

Don't forget the main discipline they must master: the missionary position.

ive mastered that.. with my girlfriend:happy

[superchile]

Boxing is the way of warriors....
two men trying to beat the other with their fists, toe to toe, on their feet.

Its a sport of heart, soul, and chin,
its a sport of power, speed, and accuracy, It iss a sport of toughness, intelligance, timing, and skills, and through these, boxing finds its champions.
It is the ultimate perfection through reduction.... seperating all that is base from combat and leaving you with the substance that is the essence of the ultimate warrior..... and boxers take the most punishment, and are some of the toughest people in the world.


To say 'boxing is just striking' is such an oversimplification.... of course its just striking. But how many differant styles do you have within that?
You have the toney style, the whitaker style, the hatton style, the spinks style, the judah style, the cotto style, the trinidad style, the winky style, the foreman style, the ali style, the frazier style,

Got pitty patters like JC
Got brawlers like mayorga
Got pure boxers like malignaggi
Got killers like Tyson
Got ferocity monsters like Kirkland
Got technicions like Marquez

You have differant styles of defence, shell defence, philly defence, differant style of footwork, ect, ect

Boxing is more then 'just striking', in the same way music is more then just a man saying words.

Boxing is perfection through reduction, fighting at its purest level.

MMA is also an art form, and i respect it.... but its just like trying to hold a match next to a star, and asking me to be impressed with the match. its hard to be effected by one when the other is so grand.

Am i romanticising it? yes i am.... but thats what boxing does to me.

how that at all answeres your question lol.... i dont know, i just had to post that lol. sorry
great post dude:happy

[pinolero1981]

I'm a boxing fan and I understand you. A lot of my co-workers get caught up with MMA but what I like best about boxing is that it is a one to one match up that features fist against fist. Through this, there are many different arts of it. There are fighters who are brawlers, technicians, pressure fighters, defensive fighters, speed fighters, body punchers, etc. Boxing is a fight of skill, heart, stamina, intelligence, and perseverence.

[VX.Nefarious]

Greco-Roman wrestling has a rich history in sports, that is very likely older than boxing. Also, not all MMA fights involve a lot of wrestling. It all depends on the fighters' martial arts expertise, pointing to another MMA strength - its versatility and variety. I like and can enjoy both. I can understand the backash of some fans that feel MMA has been hyped up and propped up by pimply teenagers, ex-fans of WWF and psychos who just like to watch street brawls. But I think the hype is beggning to scale down and the sport has entered its mature phase. Both sports can learn a lot from each other.

we are aware of that... still

the ground game IS BORING AS FUCK, to me atleast.:thumbsup

[VX.Nefarious]

and the striking is not the best, comical at times.

but its a good sport

[truushot]

Boxing is the way of warriors....
two men trying to beat the other with their fists, toe to toe, on their feet.

Its a sport of heart, soul, and chin,
its a sport of power, speed, and accuracy, It iss a sport of toughness, intelligance, timing, and skills, and through these, boxing finds its champions.
It is the ultimate perfection through reduction.... seperating all that is base from combat and leaving you with the substance that is the essence of the ultimate warrior..... and boxers take the most punishment, and are some of the toughest people in the world.


To say 'boxing is just striking' is such an oversimplification.... of course its just striking. But how many differant styles do you have within that?
You have the toney style, the whitaker style, the hatton style, the spinks style, the judah style, the cotto style, the trinidad style, the winky style, the foreman style, the ali style, the frazier style,

Got pitty patters like JC
Got brawlers like mayorga
Got pure boxers like malignaggi
Got killers like Tyson
Got ferocity monsters like Kirkland
Got technicions like Marquez

You have differant styles of defence, shell defence, philly defence, differant style of footwork, ect, ect

Boxing is more then 'just striking', in the same way music is more then just a man saying words.

Boxing is perfection through reduction, fighting at its purest level.

MMA is also an art form, and i respect it.... but its just like trying to hold a match next to a star, and asking me to be impressed with the match. its hard to be effected by one when the other is so grand.

Am i romanticising it? yes i am.... but thats what boxing does to me.

how that at all answeres your question lol.... i dont know, i just had to post that lol. sorry

Had me til you said malignaggi is a pure boxer.

[lzolnier]

and the striking is not the best, comical at times.

but its a good sport


This is untrue. The elite strikers of MMA are just as good as the best punchers in boxing. Sometimes they may appear to strike cautiously or akwardly because they must take into account what boxers never have to - a counter kick, knee, elbow, judo throwdown or a punch that's not encased in 10oz of pillows. Also because of all these options, stand up fighters typically fight at a greater distance from each other than boxers, which does affect the power and precision of their hand strikes.

[Bodysnatcher]

The elite strikers of MMA are just as good as the best punchers in boxing.

They should box then. If they're that good they'll make a shitload more money.

[lzolnier]

They should box then. If they're that good they'll make a shitload more money.


Would you ask a hockey player to be a soccer player too?

[VX.Nefarious]

This is untrue. The elite strikers of MMA are just as good as the best punchers in boxing. Sometimes they may appear to strike cautiously or akwardly because they must take into account what boxers never have to - a counter kick, knee, elbow, judo throwdown or a punch that's not encased in 10oz of pillows.


:patsch:lol:

[VX.Nefarious]

Would you ask a hockey player to be a soccer player too?

:patsch:lol:

[RafaelGonzal]

Boxing is the way of warriors....
two men trying to beat the other with their fists, toe to toe, on their feet.

Its a sport of heart, soul, and chin,
its a sport of power, speed, and accuracy, It iss a sport of toughness, intelligance, timing, and skills, and through these, boxing finds its champions.
It is the ultimate perfection through reduction.... seperating all that is base from combat and leaving you with the substance that is the essence of the ultimate warrior..... and boxers take the most punishment, and are some of the toughest people in the world.


To say 'boxing is just striking' is such an oversimplification.... of course its just striking. But how many differant styles do you have within that?
You have the toney style, the whitaker style, the hatton style, the spinks style, the judah style, the cotto style, the trinidad style, the winky style, the foreman style, the ali style, the frazier style,

Got pitty patters like JC
Got brawlers like mayorga
Got pure boxers like malignaggi
Got killers like Tyson
Got ferocity monsters like Kirkland
Got technicions like Marquez

You have differant styles of defence, shell defence, philly defence, differant style of footwork, ect, ect

Boxing is more then 'just striking', in the same way music is more then just a man saying words.

Boxing is perfection through reduction, fighting at its purest level.

MMA is also an art form, and i respect it.... but its just like trying to hold a match next to a star, and asking me to be impressed with the match. its hard to be effected by one when the other is so grand.

Am i romanticising it? yes i am.... but thats what boxing does to me.

how that at all answeres your question lol.... i dont know, i just had to post that lol. sorry


Great fucking post thanks for the effort....casting pearls before swine

[truushot]

This is untrue. The elite strikers of MMA are just as good as the best punchers in boxing. Sometimes they may appear to strike cautiously or akwardly because they must take into account what boxers never have to - a counter kick, knee, elbow, judo throwdown or a punch that's not encased in 10oz of pillows. Also because of all these options, stand up fighters typically fight at a greater distance from each other than boxers, which does affect the power of their hand strikes.

You are kidding right??

Chuck Lidell was an "elite" striker in MMA. In boxing he couldn't ko a club fighter. Dude, take the gloves off a professional boxer and they would break peoples faces in seconds. I guess you really don't understand just how hard many of them really punch. Just think about how hard Adamek punches and compare that the Lidell or any of the guys in mma.

[lzolnier]

:patsch:lol:

Yes, hit yourself on the head some more. Thanks to headbaskets like you in boxing , who prefer to pretend that MMA is like WWF and will just go away, boxing has had a very significant market share snatched away by UFC and countless other MMA organizations. Its very convinient to take all the positive aspects of one sport and stack them up against everything you dislike in the other.

[Black Eyes To You]

Boxing is the sport of kings

MMA is where you go if you can't box. Right alongside WWF and dogfighting.

[VX.Nefarious]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
Griffen garbage chin, if he Boxed, he'd get dropped hatton style by ANYBODY

vs

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
:bbb:bbb, theres no comparison.

[VX.Nefarious]

Yes, hit yourself on the head some more. Thanks to headbaskets like you in boxing , who prefer to pretend that MMA is like WWF and will just go away, boxing has had a very significant market share snatched away by UFC and countless other MMA organizations. Its very convinient to take all the positive aspects of one sport and stack them up against everything you dislike in the other.

:lol: dude MMA is one of my favorites sports, but Boxing is my thing, no need to get emotional over that.

[djrock247]

BOTH MMA and Boxing are things of beauty when practiced with great precision and technicality. Both can also be dreadfully horrible to watch when the practitioners are not highly skilled, polished and trained. Watch a polished BJJ grappler drop down and seamlessly lock in a submission hold and you'll quickly understand how much training and strategy is involved in that sport. On the surface, it looks like a couple of street thugs kicking and wrestling. I can assure you, it goes a lot deeper (in most cases) than that. With that said...my first love is still boxing. If I were asked to give up one for the other there would be no thought involved, boxing all the way. But I do see too many defenders of boxing that are too quick to dismiss MMA as a joke and a passing fad. Most, if not all of these guys have never been in over their head with a truly skilled fighting machine. Who would win in a boxing match? 99% of the time the boxer will. Who would win in an MMA rules fight? 99% of the time the MMA fighter will. Who wins on the street? Those who have done both (for years with proper practice) know the answer to that question.

[lzolnier]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
Griffen garbage chin, if he Boxed, he'd get dropped hatton style by ANYBODY

vs

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
:bbb:bbb, theres no comparison.


That's such a tired argument. Why would you expect an athlete in one sport to cross over into unfamiliar territory and compete in a totally different sport? Obviously painful is the fact that this argument can be applied both ways, with legendaries like Ali and Foreman being raped inside an MMA ring in the first round, by the most average MMA competitors. The point is, these comparisons are irrelevant and inappropriate.

I can pick countless MMA fights in its very short history, that would dazzle any sport enthusiast with an open mind.

[G.A.V.]

The one thing I'll say about MMA, UFC in particular is you'll see a lot more brutal knockouts, and in my opinion, better stoppages. Maybe its just because I'm in the UK but I've seen a lot of bullshit stoppages in fights here that really ruin the whole thing, UFC know when to call it I think. But I guess thats because they have less fights and know when to call it a day. It's not about keeping your career going for as long as possible there, its more like rising to the top asap it seems.

But still, they have their differences and I enjoy both.

[paloalto00]

It's hype because the way it's promoted. It will die down like the stupid fucking soulja boy song

[VX.Nefarious]

That's such a tired argument. Why would you expect an athlete in one sport to cross over into unfamiliar territory and compete in a totally different sport? Obviously painful is the fact that this argument can be applied both ways, with legendaries like Ali and Foreman being raped inside an MMA ring in the first round, by the most average MMA competitors. The point is, these comparisons are irrelevant and inappropriate.

I can pick countless MMA fights in its very short history, that would dazzle any sport enthusiast with an open mind.



your the one who said:

"The elite strikers of MMA are just as good as the best punchers in boxing."

:lol:did i ever say anything about boxers being able to beat an MMA figher in a MMA fight??? NO

i was simply comparing striking, thats it.

now would you please name the best of the best MMA fights you've seen, like i said, MMA is one of my favorite sports.:good

[lzolnier]

Griffen garbage chin, if he Boxed, he'd get dropped hatton style by ANYBODY



But you still made this stupid cross-sport comparison.

And just because I stated that elite MMA strikers are as good a punchers as boxers, does not imply, that they would be good punchers in boxing. All I meant is that MMA's best can stack up very well, in toughness, skill, athletcism and yes, hand striking, against boxing's best. This is, imo, an impressive feat for such a young sport.

[VX.Nefarious]

Are you on any medication?

:rofl

that was in response to your incredibly idiotic comment that said

"The elite strikers of MMA are just as good as the best punchers in boxing."

which clearly shows a lack of Boxing knowledge.

[zorryt]

That's supposed to be an elite MMA fighter?? he got ko by a jab ??? now I understand why they wrestle in most of those boring fights... Boxing all the way.

[VX.Nefarious]

MMA's best can stack up very well, in toughness, skill, athletcism and yes, hand striking, against boxing's best. This is, imo, an impressive feat for such a young sport.

:think NO

[lzolnier]

:rofl

that was in response to your incredibly idiotic comment that said

"The elite strikers of MMA are just as good as the best punchers in boxing."

which clearly shows a lack of Boxing knowledge.


Show me any objective measure which demonstrates that an elite boxer punches better than an elite MMA striker like Fedor. And even if this were possible, I will show you at least 50 other fighting areas where MMA fighters would make boxers look primitive.

[lzolnier]

:think NO


You're a biased idiot. Your knowledge of MMA is stunningly superficial. The most untrained eye can observe that MMA would require, for example, more athleticism than boxing.

[Black Eyes To You]

MMA is not a sport.
It may have spectators. But so does bullfighting.

[slip&counter]

no you're not

its garbage, soft gay porn

[VX.Nefarious]

Show me any objective measure which demonstrates that an elite boxer punches better than an elite MMA striker like Fedor. And even if this were possible, I will show you at least 50 other fighting areas where MMA fighters would make boxers look primitive.

dude just stop trying,

anyway, name the best mma fights cant wait to see them:happy,


Fedor is gonna drop Rogers, rogers has some serious power but fedor... you know fedor, roger might lose an arm:lol:.

[VX.Nefarious]

You're a biased idiot. Your knowledge of MMA is stunningly superficial. The most untrained eye can observe that MMA would require, for example, more athleticism than boxing.

calm down dude no need for name calling, and if some one's bias here, is you.:hi:

[Dismantled]

Show me any objective measure which demonstrates that an elite boxer punches better than an elite MMA striker like Fedor. And even if this were possible, I will show you at least 50 other fighting areas where MMA fighters would make boxers look primitive.

Did you forget that mixed martial artists practice boxing but boxers do not practice mixed martial arts?

MMA fighters are vastly inferior punchers. End of story.

[VX.Nefarious]

Show me any objective measure which demonstrates that an elite boxer punches better than an elite MMA striker like Fedor. And even if this were possible, I will show you at least 50 other fighting areas where MMA fighters would make boxers look primitive.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

i dont know you tell me, who's a better puncher, Fedor, or Paul??????:think

[cfizzl3]

I'm a boxer, I train with MMA fighters once in awhile.

I am an amateur and I can fight at 141-152.

I'll say this. Despite being outweighed on a regular basis of 10-20+ lbs there is a VAST difference in my striking compared to an MMA artist.

I'm a heavy handed fighter when I need to be, but I'm known for my timing and tricky little counters/defense more so.

I am by no means feather-fisted, but I'm not the next Urango for that matter.

Point is even being a smaller individual all 'round, I am almost never bothered by their punching power day in and day out. I have however stopped a few of different one's here and there in sparring matches.

Although they would be mediocre/decent boxers if they dedicated themselves more to strictly this, I can see the "jack of all/master of none" quite clearly.

They would never be at the same level as me, or others who are at the national levels.

I'm not being biased, this is strictly from my OWN personal sparring experiences with REAL mma fighters that fight at 155 and 170lbs, and have various specialties such as muay thai, kick boxing, bjj, etc.

:bbb I do admire their dedication to being well rounded though, shows they can at least commit to training. anyways cheers and hope this insight is abit telling.

[MagnaNasakki]

I boxed Brett Rogers once, and it was comical. Couple other unknown MMA heavies was a slaughter.

I dunno. I think that the very nature of striking in MMA means, they don't master boxing. They need to be good at so much, they just can't master it all.

But in straight boxing, they are not on a boxer's level, and this is both my experience and common sense.

If I was getting kicked at and shot at, I dont know what Id do.

[PorkChopExpress]

BOTH MMA and Boxing are things of beauty when practiced with great precision and technicality. Both can also be dreadfully horrible to watch when the practitioners are not highly skilled, polished and trained. Watch a polished BJJ grappler drop down and seamlessly lock in a submission hold and you'll quickly understand how much training and strategy is involved in that sport. On the surface, it looks like a couple of street thugs kicking and wrestling. I can assure you, it goes a lot deeper (in most cases) than that. With that said...my first love is still boxing. If I were asked to give up one for the other there would be no thought involved, boxing all the way. But I do see too many defenders of boxing that are too quick to dismiss MMA as a joke and a passing fad. Most, if not all of these guys have never been in over their head with a truly skilled fighting machine. Who would win in a boxing match? 99% of the time the boxer will. Who would win in an MMA rules fight? 99% of the time the MMA fighter will. Who wins on the street? Those who have done both (for years with proper practice) know the answer to that question.

Great post.

I'm someone who is a die-hard boxing fan / spectator, I think it is the ultimate competition to watch. But it's clear to me now that it is personal preference and what each show has to offer that makes fans of one or the other. It's purely a show.

I train in Wing Chung Kung Fu and BJJ though. The Wing Chun is very... 'street' wing chun too. We use a boxing jab and right cross because, well, the right cross is your best weapon generally speaking. So it's not strictly traditional which is great to me.

As a spectator, I don't think I am or you, the thread starter, are being unfair to MMA. The boxing show, everything there is to it, is just likable to me. When two guys are boxing for that prize of the winner there is nothing like it. It's what I and you like better. Simple as that.

MMA, to me, can get boring to watch, but the guys at the top of that sport are just as well trained, strong, athletic and deserving of attention as any boxer at the top of their game too. It's just a different style and different show.

What it is a question of I guess, is why is MMA seemingly more popular? And are us boxing spectator fans right in arguing with MMA fans in suggesting they should watch ours over theirs???

Recently here in Australia, an MMA pay per view is getting priority over the upcoming Mayweather fight as they're on at the same time and we only really have the 1 channel here - luckily another one has picked it up now though... thankgod!

But it's a simple truth - MMA would have sold more. I put it down to the system overall. The top MMA guys all fight each other. Rivalries are sorted out in the ring and there is less politics in getting fighters who SHOULD fight each other, to actually do it. Boxing is another fucking universe in that regard and if it wants to compete, it needs to start doing more of what MMA does actually get right.

Either way to me, both of these (and all other sports) are a showcase of people who have reached the top of their game competing with each other. Boxing is the one that speaks to me over all others right now as far as me as a spectator is concerned.

[h2hkiller]

As long as there are more combat sports than NASCAR or basketball, you should be happy.

[Trenaman]

I dont watch it and could be wrong but I think a big part of the rise of it is down to:

being marketed very well, ufc is an exciting brand which is taken on the road to widden the appeal.

top guys facing each other, and although we are seeing the top guys fight each other in boxing now this was not always the case.

satisfies folk with blood lust. no one really quits on there stool in it.

has gimmcks and mainstreme access. kimbo slice was a massive gimmick, dressed up as a street fighting internet legend. if you actually watch the videos that launched him, right enough he is a big fella but when he first came out there were Kimbo v Tyson threads!! he was soon found out in mma.

ufc reality show where fighters compete to get a contract! thats appealing to the american idol / condender generation and gives u a massive fan base before even started.

i dont think mma is a threat to boxing, if u love boxing u love boxing simple as that, there is room for both. and besides we all know what is the best.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[cloud_cyc]

you can't really compare these two sports when it come to their respective "boxing":

pro/amateur boxing - you fight an opponent who will fight you whith straight-up boxing skills
mma boxing - you fight an opponent who will box you, then shoot for a take-down, elbow you, kick you, use muai thai, etc.

in mma, i admit that they don't look as fluid ( and sometimes awkward ) w/ their boxing. but that's beacause they have to use a stance that can adjust to their opponents next move. however it doess not automatically tell you that MMA fighters are inferior boxers.

for me it's like comparing NBA to international basketball. as good as NBA players can play ball, if they try to force their type of game on international basketball w/ international basketball rules. i don't think they can win a championship. the same way that international teams will most likely fail if they play w/ their style on NBA w/ NBA rules.

i also don't agree with "jack of all/master of none":
bj penn, silva, royce gracie = BJJ masters
lyoto machida = karate
brock lesnar = amateur wrestling ( yes. he did amateur before he did the "scripted" wrestling )

[SMOKIN JAY]

mma fighters on average simply dismiss the skill of boxing and what can be achieved and think its easy to throw a few punches think of the dumb jock who thinks he hits like tyson, their eyes havent been opened to the reality yet, i used to think i had a good punch on the street, i was a little heavy handed but slow and all over the place, i took up boxing for a few years and now im doin mma, , im droppin fuckers right and left because of my boxing, dont get me wrong i love mma , but its 'boxing' is its weak spot, some have great standup with amazing kicks knees..etc, but tend to with their fists i dont get it.

[Polymath]

THe mods really don't like MMA :D

[196osh]

People who go on about boxers being able to KO an MMA fighter in a boxing match are idiots. It is akin to me saying that Lesnar would beat Waldo in an am wrestling match or that Nogueira would sub him in a BJJ match.

Of course they would as thats their specialist disipline. I appreciate both boxing and MMA, and any type of combat.

Odds are if any pro boxer went in against an MMA fighter in MMA they would lose, same the other way around.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Honestly... no disrespect but these types of threads/requests are getting old. If you don't enjoy watching the sport, then don't watch it. Personally, I am a HUGE boxing fan and I love boxing. I am also a huge MMA fan, and I love MMA. Then again, I have a long backround in grappling and I appreciate Grappling just as much as striking. However as much as I love boxing... it isn't even complete striking. Muay Thai or Kickboxing are even more complete forms of striking than boxing. Boxing is the most limited fighting sport in the world. You are only allowed to use two fists and you only have to be prepared for your opponents two fists. However... I still love it for what it is. It's also beautiful when you see a guy who has completely mastered the craft... just like it is for any sport, IMO.

I think that MMA is much too complex for many people to understand and enjoy. There are so many intricacies in MMA that many people simply aren't educated enough about all around fighting to appreciate. I am not only talking about the grappling aspect which is the obvious... I am also talking about trying to strike and look good doing it.. when you have so many other things to worry about coming back at you. Fists, elbows, leg kicks, body kicks, head kicks, knees, clinch striking, clinch grappling, outside takedown attempts, inside takedown attempts, set-ups, submission attempts.... ect... The uneducated person sits back and says "these guys are sloppy, weak chinned, without technique, ect..." The educated fan understands that you can't use most of the technical striking from boxing in an MMA match. It makes you much too easy of a target for takedowns.You have to change your stance, your movements, your commitment to your punches, your defense... it's all out the window unless you want to go for broke on one punch and allow yourself to be takedown bait. In other words... you can't shoulder roll a double leg takedown. You can't effectively shoulder roll with MMA gloves anyways, but you get the point. Also, of course you are going to be knocked out easier for the most part. For several reasons. Obvious ones being... the gloves provide much less protection. You also have to consider the fact that you have SO many things to watch out for that it is much easier to get hit with something that you don't see or anticipate. As a boxing fan, you know that those are the ones that knock you out. If you are expecting a takedown attempt and he lunges up with a shot to the chin as you are preparing for a low takedown... you aren't going to take that punch well. Just the same as if you are expecting something else and catch a high kick to the head... or throwing a kick of your own and eating a punch while it's on the way... ect... It's much easier to get caught and hurt/knocked out. Let alone the fact that you aren't given the chance to recover while your opponent isn't allowed to jump on you. Can you imagine how many boxers would have never made great comebacks in a fight if their opponents were allowed to jump on them and pound them when they were knocked down?

If you don't like the sport by now and you have already watched it, chances are you won't change your mind by what someone on this message board says.

[chuffy]

Nice post, WiDDoW, well said! :good

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

To add.. MMA is also a much safer sport for the fighters as well. It may be very brutal in different types of ways during the fight. However, as I stated before... you are much more likely to suffer permanent brain damage from boxing. In MMA when you go down, your opponent is actually allowed to finish you. Rather than being forced to stand in his corner while you are given just enough time to recover in order to take more of a pounding to your already injured brain. Jumping on someone and finishing them might seem more brutal at the moment... but it is actually a much safer route than just letting an injured fighter recover for several seconds, get back to his feet... and suffer more and more trauma to the head.

[196osh]

Damn Widdow good post. Now if you could only show this level of objectivity when discussing Wlad. :D

[Beebs]

Jack of all trades, master of none.








P.S.

Don't forget the main discipline they must master: the missionary position.



So the world champion jiu jitsu competitors, national championship and olympic wrestlers and judokas, the kickboxing national and world champions are not masters of their trade?

More importantly, the best MMA fighters; regardless of their background are all masters of MMA, it is it's own sport, not just a combination of several. Sometimes you will see a person who is outqualified in one aspect, such as GSP not having the wrestling credentials of a Koshcheck, but getting the better of the wrestling aspect because he is better at MMA.


Funny how MMA haters always are the first to view something as homosexual, says quite a lot about you that you view one of the most basic manuvers in many different styles of fighting that have been around for thosands of years and from every corner of the world, as gay sex.

The rest of the world realizes it's a fight, they have since human fighting has existed, but when it comes to you you immediately think of gay sex. That is on you, not on the 99% of civilization with a brain.

[RockyMarciano]

But you still made this stupid cross-sport comparison.

And just because I stated that elite MMA strikers are as good a punchers as boxers, does not imply, that they would be good punchers in boxing. All I meant is that MMA's best can stack up very well, in toughness, skill, athletcism and yes, hand striking, against boxing's best. This is, imo, an impressive feat for such a young sport.



That must be why Anderson Silva is 1-1 as a boxer

[Rattler]

The "boxers are much better strikers than MMA fighters" argument is tired and inherently stupid.

Let's see... the guy who spends all day learning how to punch is better at it than the guy who only spends a little bit of time at it, is.

Well, no shit, morons.

Take away the boxing and what other form of fighting can they do? Oh yeah, probably none. Why? Because that's not what they train for.

And the idiots who just wave off the concept of MMA fighters having to worry about take downs or leg/body kicks as having nothing to do with anything are simply juvenile and cuntish.

THe name of either game is different in such a way that you can't expect one to venture into the other without their being a noticable learning curve. Only a pissant fool would think otherwise.

[ufoalf]

Yes, MMA fighters can't box as well as boxers. People are defending that point so passionately except no one is arguing against it.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Yes, MMA fighters can't box as well as boxers. People are defending that point so passionately except no one is arguing against it.
:lol: So true.

[IntentionalButt]

I've followed both off and on for years - most of my life in fact (even before the early "illegal" VHS halcyon days of the UFC I held interest in several martial arts disciplines, including modern MMA striking core <along with dirty boxing> Muay Thai; and the sweet science was introduced to me as soon as the kid gloves fit).

Over the last 5-6 in particular my passion for boxing has intensified while my MMA fandom has waned to the "casual" level.

For me, MMA is good but boxing is great.

Subjectivity makes the world go round. :good

[MattMattMatt]

Silva v Some guy at wildcard:
FLIQBGSXv1A

I love both sports, but it is clear that Silva has too many bad habits to be able to fight at the top level in boxing. In fact I think he would struggle against any number of journeymen, he's just not on the same level right now (if ever) in terms of striking with the hands. If he ever got in the ring with Jones Jr he would be obliterated.

However, if Jones Jr got in the octagon he too would be obliterated, so this is always going to be a stupid comparison. Just watch what you like!

[PR p4p #1]

with disrespect intended mma its just a stupid hype job directed to 16 year ol kids and stupid rednecks who know nothing about nothing. how can mma fans say mma is better than boxing when they have a former wwe wrestler as theyr world champion?or when you have a hype job kimbo faggot?or when a 48 year ol mercer can ko a former ufc champ in 8 seconds?

im sorry but mma is the most boring shit ever. i watched the rampage vs henderson chapion vs champion and all they did was to try to stomp each others feet.

[Koa]

Boxing is a sport for warriors, and MMA is not for some reason?

I don't understand it this way.. I look at boxing as refined striking with the hands, where MMA is less refined, it introduces other aspects of combat which allows for a more realistic, and complete fighting environment. Both are great, one is focused on hands, and thus the footwork required to go along with specializing into that small aspect of combat.

MMA incorporates most aspects of combat, and broadens the horizon of what fights actually are.

I hear boxers talk about how sloppy MMA fighters are with their footwork, I tend to look at that statement myopic, in that in MMA you have to be aware of far more things than you do in boxing, so good footwork is going to be dictated by positioning, be it defensively or offensively according to the situation, just as in boxing.

MMA is becoming more and more refined as time goes on, but with such a huge array of skills that people can bring into the ring, it will never be as, "refined" as boxing is, because it more closely simulates real combat.

If you cant appreciate MMA, then you don't really understand what being a warrior is even about. I enjoy watching all aspects of combat.. Fencing, Judo, wrestling, boxing, MMA, Muay Thai, Kickboxing. To be able to appreciate combat in all its forms is to be a fan, and to understand what being a warrior truly is about. Cheers.

Someone who only appreciates boxing, I can understand. But, in the big picture, its a lot like having a brand of something you enjoy, and are stuck on. Like watching someone swear on Perrier water, and is too stuck up to drink some water out of the tap, or at least try an evian, or some other bottled water. Its a sort of elitist, loyal position to something they are accustomed to.

[IntentionalButt]

with disrespect intended mma its just a stupid hype job directed to 16 year ol kids and stupid rednecks who know nothing about nothing. how can mma fans say mma is better than boxing when they have a former wwe wrestler as theyr world champion?or when you have a hype job kimbo faggot?or when a 48 year ol mercer can ko a former ufc champ in 8 seconds?

im sorry but mma is the most boring shit ever. i watched the rampage vs henderson chapion vs champion and all they did was to try to stomp each others feet.

Actually the sport is followed by an arguably more diverse crowd than boxing. Huge in Brazil and parts of Asia, its constituents include not only fans of modern "hybrid" MMA but also people following their favorite judokas, wrestlers, kickboxers, and karate practitioners in their campaigns, as these combatants raise not only their individual profiles but those of their respective disciplines (of recent note, see Machida using his ascension to become benefactor of Shotokan).

[MattMattMatt]

Boxing is a sport for warriors, and MMA is not for some reason?

I don't understand it this way.. I look at boxing as refined striking with the hands, where MMA is less refined, it introduces other aspects of combat which allows for a more realistic, and complete fighting environment. Both are great, one is focused on hands, and thus the footwork required to go along with specializing into that small aspect of combat.

MMA incorporates most aspects of combat, and broadens the horizon of what fights actually are.

I hear boxers talk about how sloppy MMA fighters are with their footwork, I tend to look at that statement myopic, in that in MMA you have to be aware of far more things than you do in boxing, so good footwork is going to be dictated by positioning, be it defensively or offensively according to the situation, just as in boxing.

MMA is becoming more and more refined as time goes on, but with such a huge array of skills that people can bring into the ring, it will never be as, "refined" as boxing is, because it more closely simulates real combat.

If you cant appreciate MMA, then you don't really understand what being a warrior is even about. I enjoy watching all aspects of combat.. Fencing, Judo, wrestling, boxing, MMA, Muay Thai, Kickboxing. To be able to appreciate combat in all its forms is to be a fan, and to understand what being a warrior truly is about. Cheers.

Well said.

[Beebs]

with disrespect intended mma its just a stupid hype job directed to 16 year ol kids and stupid rednecks who know nothing about nothing. how can mma fans say mma is better than boxing when they have a former wwe wrestler as theyr world champion?or when you have a hype job kimbo faggot?or when a 48 year ol mercer can ko a former ufc champ in 8 seconds?

im sorry but mma is the most boring shit ever. i watched the rampage vs henderson chapion vs champion and all they did was to try to stomp each others feet.

Such an idiot.

MMA draws people from all over the world, just like boxing. Brazil, Russia, UK, Japan, Australia, everywhere. Many people in MMA come from a combat sport background, so you have Judokas from Japan and Europe, wrestlers from all over the world, kickboxers from Holland, BJJ fighters from Brazil, it is truely a global sport.

That former pro wrestler was also a former NCAA national champion wrestler with freakish athletic ability; look at his numbers from the NFL training camp, I doubt any HW boxer could even come close to matching them.

So he entered a field where he could make money based on his background, mma wasn't paying very well at the time, so what? Floyd Mayweather has done multiple things with the WWE and he has done them much more recently, whats the difference?

Yes, Mercer KO'd Sylvia, no taking away from that; Couture and Fedor also dropped him with the first punches of the fight, so it isn't like MMA fighters can't do what Mercer did. Sylvia is also on the verge of falling apart, he has ballooned up in weight, and that fight was originally going to be a boxing match, so he probably didn't go in with the best game plan. No excuses though; if an MMA fighter tries to box with a boxer in an MMA fight he is going to lose. If he attempts to take the fight to the ground or even the clinch he is usually going to win, if he actually gets it to the ground he is always going to win.

Mercer also lost to Kimbo in Kimbo's first MMA fight, where he was even worse than he is now. There have also been several boxers who have tried MMA and gotten absolutely obliterated. Nishijima, a Japanese Cruiserweight failed miserably. Matt Skelton got thrown around and choked by Tom Erikson.

There is certainly more evidence of MMA fighters being better at MMA than boxers, in fact that should be a pretty obvious statement, so I'm not real sure why bringing up Mercer does any harm to MMA.

[cross_trainer]

Such an idiot.

MMA draws people from all over the world, just like boxing. Brazil, Russia, UK, Japan, Australia, everywhere. Many people in MMA come from a combat sport background, so you have Judokas from Japan and Europe, wrestlers from all over the world, kickboxers from Holland, BJJ fighters from Brazil, it is truely a global sport.

That former pro wrestler was also a former NCAA national champion wrestler with freakish athletic ability; look at his numbers from the NFL training camp, I doubt any HW boxer could even come close to matching them.

So he entered a field where he could make money based on his background, mma wasn't paying very well at the time, so what? Floyd Mayweather has done multiple things with the WWE and he has done them much more recently, whats the difference?

Yes, Mercer KO'd Sylvia, no taking away from that; Couture and Fedor also dropped him with the first punches of the fight, so it isn't like MMA fighters can't do what Mercer did. Sylvia is also on the verge of falling apart, he has ballooned up in weight, and that fight was originally going to be a boxing match, so he probably didn't go in with the best game plan. No excuses though; if an MMA fighter tries to box with a boxer in an MMA fight he is going to lose. If he attempts to take the fight to the ground or even the clinch he is usually going to win, if he actually gets it to the ground he is always going to win.

Mercer also lost to Kimbo in Kimbo's first MMA fight, where he was even worse than he is now. There have also been several boxers who have tried MMA and gotten absolutely obliterated. Nishijima, a Japanese Cruiserweight failed miserably. Matt Skelton got thrown around and choked by Tom Erikson.

There is certainly more evidence of MMA fighters being better at MMA than boxers, in fact that should be a pretty obvious statement, so I'm not real sure why bringing up Mercer does any harm to MMA.

In all fairness, Lesnar's dominance in the UFC really does expose the limits of "sophisticated" modern MMA guys in the face of somebody who's comparatively unskilled and freakishly athletic. The same could be said to an even greater degree of someone like Sapp.

It's as if the amateur Olympic champ spent the last several years pretending to box, bulked up to outrageous proportions, and then came back and KO'd Valuev, Vitali, and Wladimir in rapid succession. That sort of thing just doesn't happen in boxing because the skillset is forced into a narrower range.

[scurlaruntings]

In all fairness, Lesnar's dominance in the UFC really does expose the limits of "sophisticated" modern MMA guys in the face of somebody who's comparatively unskilled and freakishly athletic. The same could be said to an even greater degree of someone like Sapp.

It's as if the amateur Olympic champ spent the last several years pretending to box, bulked up to outrageous proportions, and then came back and KO'd Valuev, Vitali, and Wladimir in rapid succession. That sort of thing just doesn't happen in boxing because the skillset is forced into a narrower range.I said this from the very outset long before Lesanr became champ that if he did become champ some would question the legitimacy of MMA. Comparing both sports is like comparing Apples and Oranges because there both fruits. Both are entirely diffrent with diffrent rules and skillsets. MMA has an amalgammation of varying disciplines but that can be negated through sheer size. Guys like Choi Sapp Lesnar are evidence of this. Equally if Lesnar fought in the K1 he would be a nobody. Sapp turned his hand at K1 and beat the great Ernesto Hoost. Sapp turned his hand at MMA and got turned in recent years into a cabbage. Its as long as it is short.

[HeavyT]

I agree partly with what you said but... wrestling is a skill that is important in MMA, not in boxing... it wouldn't be like an ametur wrestler coming into boxing at all.

But yeah, sheer size is a much larger factor in MMA than it is in boxing because of boxings narrower rules

[SouthpawSlayer]

Such an idiot.

MMA draws people from all over the world, just like boxing. Brazil, Russia, UK, Japan, Australia, everywhere. Many people in MMA come from a combat sport background, so you have Judokas from Japan and Europe, wrestlers from all over the world, kickboxers from Holland, BJJ fighters from Brazil, it is truely a global sport.

That former pro wrestler was also a former NCAA national champion wrestler with freakish athletic ability; look at his numbers from the NFL training camp, I doubt any HW boxer could even come close to matching them.

So he entered a field where he could make money based on his background, mma wasn't paying very well at the time, so what? Floyd Mayweather has done multiple things with the WWE and he has done them much more recently, whats the difference?

Yes, Mercer KO'd Sylvia, no taking away from that; Couture and Fedor also dropped him with the first punches of the fight, so it isn't like MMA fighters can't do what Mercer did. Sylvia is also on the verge of falling apart, he has ballooned up in weight, and that fight was originally going to be a boxing match, so he probably didn't go in with the best game plan. No excuses though; if an MMA fighter tries to box with a boxer in an MMA fight he is going to lose. If he attempts to take the fight to the ground or even the clinch he is usually going to win, if he actually gets it to the ground he is always going to win.

Mercer also lost to Kimbo in Kimbo's first MMA fight, where he was even worse than he is now. There have also been several boxers who have tried MMA and gotten absolutely obliterated. Nishijima, a Japanese Cruiserweight failed miserably. Matt Skelton got thrown around and choked by Tom Erikson.

There is certainly more evidence of MMA fighters being better at MMA than boxers, in fact that should be a pretty obvious statement, so I'm not real sure why bringing up Mercer does any harm to MMA.

do you never get tired of typing this shit or do you simply copy and paste it every time someone trolls, they troll and you bite then type

we have heard your points all before but one thing, mercer koed sylvia with one punch and he was out before he even started to drop, dont try discredit mercer's victory because at the age of nearly 50 he deserves more credit than he got, couture gave sylvia a flash kd and fedor landed 10 shots before sylvia dropped

[cross_trainer]

I agree partly with what you said but... wrestling is a skill that is important in MMA, not in boxing... it wouldn't be like an ametur wrestler coming into boxing at all.

But yeah, sheer size is a much larger factor in MMA than it is in boxing because of boxings narrower rules

I meant an amateur boxing champion, not amateur wrestling champion.

Picture Roberto Camarelle (after his win at the 2008 Beijing Olympics) spending several years doing fixed exhibition fights and bulking up to 280 pounds, then KO'ing Valuev and both Klitschkos.

It wouldn't happen.

[Dantes]

this.

is.gay.

[cross_trainer]

I said this from the very outset long before Lesanr became champ that if he did become champ some would question the legitimacy of MMA. .

Very perceptive. :good

And just for the record, I don't question the legitimacy of MMA. It's just that I just suspect that skill doesn't count for as much in MMA as it does in boxing because there are so many ways to lose that it's harder to cover all of your bases against an athletic opponent.

There's a fight video (I don't remember the precise circumstances, since it's been a while) where a high-ranking BJJ instructor takes on a former Mr. Utah. The weird thing is that the BJJ guy is initially MORE dominant standing than on the ground, because the bodybuilder is able to use his strength to counter any attempts at getting a superior position.

(He does ultimately get the submission).

There is no way that a guy like Kimo should have been a good match against Gracie, skill-wise. Sapp wasn't in remotely the same league as Nogueira. You could argue that Sapp had limited success in Pride, but the bottom line is that he was a top contender in PRIDE despite having almost no martial arts training. He was just a huge, roided-up football player. Please understand that I'm NOT knocking Nogueira here--Sapp was a very legitimate threat despite his lack of skill, and I'd pick him in his prime to beat some of the current UFC heavies. Heck, Fedor (easily the "baddest man on the planet") had trouble with Mark Hunt because he was fairly strong, even though Hunt had a limited grappling game (great strikes, mind).

And it goes on...

Comparing both sports is like comparing Apples and Oranges because there both fruits. Both are entirely diffrent with diffrent rules and skillsets. MMA has an amalgammation of varying disciplines but that can be negated through sheer size. Guys like Choi Sapp Lesnar are evidence of this. Equally if Lesnar fought in the K1 he would be a nobody. Sapp turned his hand at K1 and beat the great Ernesto Hoost. Sapp turned his hand at MMA and got turned in recent years into a cabbage. Its as long as it is short.

I agree--it's not as if boxing skill = MMA skill. Far from it.

But compared to MOST other sports, an athletic amateur with a limited game (college wrestling, for instance) can be more successful. As far as I know, you don't see that in boxing, tennis, baseball, basketball...not even stuff like pool or darts.

So we have a very curious paradox: MMA athletes are extraordinarily skilled, but skill isn't as important in MMA as in other sports. Mainly because fighting--and that's essentially what MMA is--is so unpredictable.

I do wonder if the next 20 years' worth of refinements will allow MMA fighters to slowly close the gaps by narrowing and refining their skillset JUST enough to make it water-tight against a limited-but-athletic guy like Brock.

[Dantes]

I am a boxing aficionado and student as well. I love learning about the the Ezzard Charles' and Emile Griffiths' of boxing as much as watching a classic boxing match. There for I concede I am bias in my comparison of boxing and mixed martial arts. However, I am a sports fan in general and can appreciate most sports. I respect the athletisim of mma fighters and am particularly fond of the mastery of multiple martial art techniques some mma fighters posess. But yet I struggle to watch a MMA match and fail to comprehend the ethusiasm of it's rapidly growing fan base. So I ask my fellow sweet science loyalist to give me an comprehensive argument pro mixed martial arts, and why boxing fans should embrace it. Your help is respected and appreciated.

No one has to like anything, you can like it or not. Find your own reasons for following something. It would be like trying to 'convert' a basketball fan who is bored of boxing- into an avid boxing fan- people are diverse hence the large amount of sports there are to pursue. I think your thread is pointless.

[cross_trainer]

I guess my point boils down to this:

What's the point in going to an MMA gym and learning Muay Thai, boxing, wrestling, and BJJ for years if you could just wrestle, pump iron, and beat an MMA "specialist" (note the quotation marks) anyway?

It's odd when people training specifically for a certain sport get beaten under their own rules by someone who's not.

[Beebs]

do you never get tired of typing this shit or do you simply copy and paste it every time someone trolls, they troll and you bite then type

we have heard your points all before but one thing, mercer koed sylvia with one punch and he was out before he even started to drop, dont try discredit mercer's victory because at the age of nearly 50 he deserves more credit than he got, couture gave sylvia a flash kd and fedor landed 10 shots before sylvia dropped

Well I do it more in the hope that somebody who isn't an idiot reads it and gets the point.

Mercer does deserve credit, no doubt, but there is a bit more to the story than "boxing beat MMA." It was scheduled as a boxing match up until the last minute, Sylvia seems to be at a poor state in his career, and it isn't like other MMA fighters haven't done the same to him. So yes, Mercer deserves huge credit, but it isn't some sort of damning tale for MMA, just a huge personal accomplishment for Mercer.

[Beebs]

In all fairness, Lesnar's dominance in the UFC really does expose the limits of "sophisticated" modern MMA guys in the face of somebody who's comparatively unskilled and freakishly athletic. The same could be said to an even greater degree of someone like Sapp.

It's as if the amateur Olympic champ spent the last several years pretending to box, bulked up to outrageous proportions, and then came back and KO'd Valuev, Vitali, and Wladimir in rapid succession. That sort of thing just doesn't happen in boxing because the skillset is forced into a narrower range.

I have always had a similar view that "well rounded" is a quality that can be overrated, the key is being able to implement your set of skills that you have; ie if you are great on the ground you need good takedowns, if you are great standing you need great takedown defense, etc. Although it isn't like Lesnar is unskilled, he is quite fundamentally sound in his wrestling, it isn't just power. He has also been dedicated to learning MMA for several years full time with some of the best teachers around, and his background in one area of grappling has made his advancment in other areas of grappling very quick. His standup isn't great technically, but he has such huge power that it became an effective tool for him very quickly.

I think Sapp actually is a much much worse example, he actually is unskilled completely, and has some absolutely terrible loses against weaker and smaller opponents to show for it. Yes he put up a good fight for a while against Nog, but he lost. He is actually a perfect example of being huge and strong, but losing becuse he is unskilled. Johnny Morton is another great example, he was insanely athletic, yet got knocked absolutely cold by a pretty bad fighter who does stand up comedy on the side.

I don't think the comparison with an Olympic boxer is quite the same idea; amateur boxing is not the highest level of the sport; amateur wrestling is the absolute pinnacle of the sport. While Lesnar wasn't a gold medalist, he was the best Folkstyle wrestler in the US, possibly the world since nobody else really does it. The olympic boxer would really only be applicable if it was somebody from the old Soviet Union or Cuba who is prevented from being a pro. A Teofilo Stevenson is a much better example than any current olympic boxer; and how often have we heard that he would have done very well as a pro? I personally don't think he would have been a HW champ, but that is neither here nor there. Then there is the case of Matt Skelton, a decent kickboxer turns into a top 10 boxer.

I do think I understand, and actually somewhat share your belief in what you are saying. Correct me if I am wrong but you are saying that a limited set of skills can go a very long way as long as you are able to actually force those skills on your opponent. The issue though is that sometimes you won't be able to do it very easily, that is were the modern "sophistication" of MMA comes into play; sometimes you need plan B, C, and D.

I guess my point boils down to this:

What's the point in going to an MMA gym and learning Muay Thai, boxing, wrestling, and BJJ for years if you could just wrestle, pump iron, and beat an MMA "specialist" (note the quotation marks) anyway?

It's odd when people training specifically for a certain sport get beaten under their own rules by someone who's not.

Well the main problem with not training specifically for MMA (which to be fair, every MMA fighter does to at least some extent, it's not like Brock walked straight out of a wrestling room into the cage, he hired basically hired one of the most techincal big men in BJJ to live with him and train him personally, and works out with one of the better teams in MMA) is style matchups. If you come to MMA with a great background and the ability to usually implement it you are going to win a lot of fights; eventually though, you are going to run into somebody who is either better than you at your own game or has a game that counters yours very well. If Brock ever ran into a bigger and better wrestler than him, he would need all the MMA specific training he has.

The best examples of when it becomes a huge problem not to be a modern well rounded MMA fighter are sport BJJ guys with bad takedowns, strikers with bad takedown defense, and wrestlers with bad submission defense. The Leites vs Silva fight showed it perfectly; Leites has an absolutely deadly ground game, but since he lacked the MMA skills to either set up a takedown with striking or the wrestling/judo to get a takedown without a great set up, he just got toyed with and embarrassed the whole point.


In general what you are saying is very true, that your bread and butter is going to be what wins you most fights, so you better actually have a very good bread and butter. On the other hand though, there will always be matchups where you won't be able to use your bread and butter as much as you would like, and if you don't have the rest of the game, you will be exposed.

Imagine this: Manhoef comes to the UFC, KO's Anderson Silva (it could happen quite easily if Silva is content to stand with him). Now you have a champion who can't really do much of anything but strike, and he beat the best fighter available to get that belt. However, once it comes time to defend that belt, a couple of dozen guys could make Manhoef look absolutely foolish by taking him down. So if you just look at Manhoef hypothetically winning the belt you would think "well, all that other stuff is a waste of time" but in reality there are countless guys out there who would take the belt off him simply by being able to prevent him from fighting his way.

[SouthpawSlayer]

Well I do it more in the hope that somebody who isn't an idiot reads it and gets the point.

Mercer does deserve credit, no doubt, but there is a bit more to the story than "boxing beat MMA." It was scheduled as a boxing match up until the last minute, Sylvia seems to be at a poor state in his career, and it isn't like other MMA fighters haven't done the same to him. So yes, Mercer deserves huge credit, but it isn't some sort of damning tale for MMA, just a huge personal accomplishment for Mercer.

and again people come here to troll diehard boxing fans who hate the fact that its not the ultimate combat sport anymore will always come to troll, i sincerely hope you copy and paste that shit, most of these guys aren't dumb and know mercer was a one off and brock is a freak of an athlete with great wrestling standards, but they would rather just come here to piss you guys off you should really ignore these fools, only the few retards on these boards actually believe that boxing is far greater becasue of mercer sylvia

[scurlaruntings]

I guess my point boils down to this:

What's the point in going to an MMA gym and learning Muay Thai, boxing, wrestling, and BJJ for years if you could just wrestle, pump iron, and beat an MMA "specialist" (note the quotation marks) anyway?

It's odd when people training specifically for a certain sport get beaten under their own rules by someone who's not.Thats because this sport is about HOW well you peform YOUR style versus someone else. That doesnt then by default make it more superior. It just means your better at it then your opponent is at his. Fedor is great at Combat Sambo. How many guys are practising Sambo other than Russians? The Gracies introduced BJJ to the world. Now every MMA fan assumes by default you MUST be great at BJJ in order to be the best. CC Liddell Manhoef have all had great careers with a modicum of BJJ skills.

I still prefer the old days when you knew what type of MA an opponent represented. Now you have all these "freestyle" fighters and guys trying to emulate GSP. Frankly in my opinion thats nonsense.

The irony is MMA has created a NEW martial art. Guys cross train in a variety of disciplines but remain pretty average at all of them. The additional styles should COMPLIMENT your strengths. Fedor CC Nog Barnett are prime examples of this. They all know what their bread and butter is and they compliment that with other MA's. But they never deviate from what there best at.

Fans query Fedor's striking. But facts remain its PERFECT for MMA. Fedor isnt a boxer.Purists can argue the point till their blue in the face. Matter of fact he's not even a striker. He's an exceptional Judoka with VERY heavy hands. Fedor uses his striking to get his opponent to the mat where he can submit them. Its worked every time since his turned pro. Fedor is a prime of example of what a mixed martial artist truly is.

[James23]

Wow. This is...interesting to read.

[cross_trainer]

Thats because this sport is about HOW well you peform YOUR style versus someone else. That doesnt then by default make it more superior. It just means your better at it then your opponent is at his. Fedor is great at Combat Sambo. How many guys are practising Sambo other than Russians? The Gracies introduced BJJ to the world. Now every MMA fan assumes by default you MUST be great at BJJ in order to be the best. CC Liddell Manhoef have all had great careers with a modicum of BJJ skills.

I still prefer the old days when you knew what type of MA an opponent represented. Now you have all these "freestyle" fighters and guys trying to emulate GSP. Frankly in my opinion thats nonsense.

The irony is MMA has created a NEW martial art. Guys cross train in a variety of disciplines but remain pretty average at all of them. The additional styles should COMPLIMENT your strengths. Fedor CC Nog Barnett are prime examples of this. They all know what their bread and butter is and they compliment that with other MA's. But they never deviate from what there best at.

I agree with most of what you're saying here. There's definitely a difference between being "well-rounded" in the sense of being a jack-of-all-trades and simply being well-rounded ENOUGH to play to your strengths. To use a boxing parallel, there are very few boxer-punchers with great right hands AND left hooks AND jabs AND uppercuts AND head movement AND bodywork (etc. etc.)

But...

Most people would expect a top boxer to be able to beat a top contender from another fisticuff-based system under his own rules, simply because he's been trained for that system a lot longer. If MMA was more like boxing, Lesnar wouldn't be the best takedown specialist in the heavyweight division. The best takedown specialist would be somebody who'd had a long career in amateur MMA taking people down (an art which he would have learned in an MMA gym and tested in MMA competition), followed by 20+ professional fights where he'd done the same.

In 20 years, I don't expect everybody to be clones of GSP. There are very few legitimately great all-around fighters. But what I do expect to see is fewer and fewer top guys from other martial arts backgrounds (BJJ, judo, wrestling, Muay Thai, Shotokan karate). In 20 years, the cross-pollination of so many martial arts will have produced a consensus on the highest-percentage approaches to fighting. Fighters will have long amateur pedigrees behind them and will have been trained from day 1 in purpose-built MMA gyms in a skillset specifically designed for the type of competition they're going to participate in. It will be like the difference in style between the bareknucklers in Sullivan's day and the gloved fighters of Jack Dempsey's.

We're very early in the game right now. Some of the fighters who learned BJJ from the first Gracie JJ tapes are still around. Sure, they're nearing the end of their careers, but they're still around. They will be (and some of them already are) the first generation of teachers. The talent and teaching pools are still small, which means that there's a lot of "borrowing" going on from coaches and competitors in other combat sports.


Fans query Fedor's striking. But facts remain its PERFECT for MMA. Fedor isnt a boxer.Purists can argue the point till their blue in the face. Matter of fact he's not even a striker. He's an exceptional Judoka with VERY heavy hands. Fedor uses his striking to get his opponent to the mat where he can submit them. Its worked every time since his turned pro. Fedor is a prime of example of what a mixed martial artist truly is.

Actually, I consider Fedor a fairly well-rounded fighter--he does have the ability to legitimately beat a wide variety of opponents on their feet (including, recently, two fighters known for their striking abilities).