I find it hilarious that people think Taylor can have success at SMW.

[Amsterdam]

It's just astonishing sometimes with boxing fans. You have a guy who took all he could handle from the smaller Wright and in not even talking about the decisions as it was close, struggled deeply. A guy who didn't respond well to the speed of Cory Spinks and a guy who's game plan fell apart under the pressure of the tiny Kassim Ouma.. and he's supposed to beat top 10 SMW's like Bute, Mundine, Froch, Andrade etc.

Not even counting the two top dogs. Of course, some fans think that being competitive with the 40+ Hopkins and Wright mean that he's a class above those names up there, even discounting that even though Wright and Hopkins are P4P ranked fighters, that they lack the intangibles such as size/speed/power combinations of the much larger SMW men.

For example, Froch is an average SMW, but he'd swarm Taylor and knock him out, because Taylor lacks the chin and dynamic ability under pressure to reverse the fight on Froch, he also lacks the power. Andrade would also just pressure until Taylor gave in and then he'd start landing his power bombs and that would be the end of it.

Taylor is mentioning that after the Pavlik bout, win or lose he is going up to 168. I seriously doubt he will fight a natural SMW in his arrival because any of those names, even a guy like Sakio Bika, would present so much trouble that the competition that he has been fighting could not due to the intangible differences. He also gives up his size advantage.

Pavlik will win, then everyone will agree. Classic stuff.

[lefthook31]

8 pound is nothing for a middleweigh to super middle. Your talking about two slick fighters in Spinks and Wright.
How do you come to the conclusion Taylor has a weak chin? Hes never been down as a pro.
Taylor really has been mismatched in my opinion. He still wins, but he hasnt had the opponent like Pavlik who will stand in front of him. Pavlik is going to get stopped late. Taylor is a much better fighter than your giving him credit for, and I think it will be proven starting with the Pavlik fight.

[Amsterdam]

8 pound is nothing for a middleweigh to super middle. Your talking about two slick fighters in Spinks and Wright.
How do you come to the conclusion Taylor has a weak chin? Hes never been down as a pro.
Taylor really has been mismatched in my opinion. He still wins, but he hasnt had the opponent like Pavlik who will stand in front of him. Pavlik is going to get stopped late. Taylor is a much better fighter than your giving him credit for, and I think it will be proven starting with the Pavlik fight.

Ouma stands right in front of you. And Wright is by no means 'slick', he's in your face all night and is a master of using the guard by way of timing, leaving him at the mercy of a truly powerful bigger man if he were to be matched with one, say Arthur Abraham.

[Imperial1]

Its hilarious to think otherwise ..If Taylor can carry the weight with more power he could be pretty decent ..If he does't than we see a situation similar to Mosley where he looks slower at the higher weight.

Its not impossible these days with all the technology and stuff these days ..:boxx

[lefthook31]

Ouma stands right in front of you. And Wright is by no means 'slick', he's in your face all night and is a master of using the guard by way of timing, leaving him at the mercy of a truly powerful bigger man if he were to be matched with one, say Arthur Abraham.
Wright is slick in the sense that he doesnt get hit cleanly ever. Ouma was brutalized, what else do you want. Abraham is as one dimensional as Trinidad, whats he talking about?

[Fab2333]

8 pound is nothing for a middleweigh to super middle. Your talking about two slick fighters in Spinks and Wright.
How do you come to the conclusion Taylor has a weak chin? Hes never been down as a pro.
Taylor really has been mismatched in my opinion. He still wins, but he hasnt had the opponent like Pavlik who will stand in front of him. Pavlik is going to get stopped late. Taylor is a much better fighter than your giving him credit for, and I think it will be proven starting with the Pavlik fight.:good

[achillesthegreat]

Calzaghe Kessler winner will probably go to 175, nothing will be left at 168. They'll look to Hopkins, Woods, maybe Dawson etc

All the belts will be vacated. Taylor could be successful.

[Amsterdam]

Wright is slick in the sense that he doesnt get hit cleanly ever. Ouma was brutalized, what else do you want. Abraham is as one dimensional as Trinidad, whats he talking about?

Ouma's pressure was making Taylor lose his gameplan. A big MW puncher would have also taken him out early considering he has no defence what so ever.

Abraham has the size and power to defeat Wright, in the way that Taylor does not. Abraham would beat Taylor as well for that matter.

[IntentionalButt]

Calzaghe Kessler winner will probably go to 175, nothing will be left at 168. They'll look to Hopkins, Woods, maybe Dawson etc

All the belts will be vacated. Taylor could be successful.

Forget Joe and Mikkel, what top 20 SMW would Taylor be a favorite against?

[Amsterdam]

Calzaghe Kessler winner will probably go to 175, nothing will be left at 168. They'll look to Hopkins, Woods, maybe Dawson etc

All the belts will be vacated. Taylor could be successful.

There is not a SMW top 10 fighter that Taylor should be favoured over, given his track record, they all hit harder and are much larger than anyone he's fought and he lacks the power to even KO what is a glass jaw at SMW in Berrio.

[Imperial1]

Who should Taylor's first tune up be then ? I some how see a fight with Lacy in the near future ..

[achillesthegreat]

Forget Joe and Mikkel, what top 20 SMW would Taylor be a favorite against?
Firstly, what happened to all the people who said Taylor could beat Lacy?

If I go to boxrec, I think Taylor could hang with/beat Mundine, Bute, Froch, Lacy, Beyer, Manfredo, Tsypko and Andrade.

[lefthook31]

Ouma's pressure was making Taylor lose his gameplan. A big MW puncher would have also taken him out early considering he has no defence what so ever.

Abraham has the size and power to defeat Wright, in the way that Taylor does not. Abraham would beat Taylor as well for that matter.

When was Ouma's pressure making Taylor lose his game plan in the last 30 seconds of the last round?:lol: It was a one sided beating, maybe Taylor was getting bored.

Abraham hasn't proved anything yet. He has yet to face anyone with the skills of Hopkins, Wright or even Taylor. Time will tell how good he is. Its like Vic Darchinian, they build him up to be godzilla and this huge puncher, and the first slick fighter he faces, he gets completey taken apart.
Taylor is a good fighter, he just wasnt ready to face the guys like Hopkins and Wright when he did, due to lack of experience. The fact that he faced these guys when he did and performed the way he did, is proof of how good he can be. Also Emanuel Steward doesnt waste his time with guys who are not the real deal, just ask Vivian Harris.

[achillesthegreat]

There is not a SMW top 10 fighter that Taylor should be favoured over, given his track record, they all hit harder and are much larger than anyone he's fought and he lacks the power to even KO what is a glass jaw at SMW in Berrio.
What is wrong with his track record? Two close victories over X, a close fight with a top P4P, dominated a former champ from 154 and then ONE horrible fight.

The Spinks fight was a fight where he was just being a moron. Spinks has one gear - SLICK! Make em miss, move, jab, repeat. Taylor moronically was sucked into this.

How many middleweights have Spinks speed, skill or consistency with such an awkward style???

[Amsterdam]

Firstly, what happened to all the people who said Taylor could beat Lacy?

If I go to boxrec, I think Taylor could hang with/beat Mundine, Bute, Froch, Lacy, Beyer, Manfredo, Tsypko and Andrade.

Manfredo and Beyer are the only ones I'd favour Taylor to defeat. The rest should win by KO.

[achillesthegreat]

Manfredo and Beyer are the only ones I'd favour Taylor to defeat. The rest should win by KO.
Taylor doesn't strike me as being unknockoutable but who knows until it is proven.

Once again your chin theories are trash and purely opinions.

FACT - Taylor has ONLY fought CHAMPS in ALL his title fights.
FACT - Taylor is a PROVEN P4P fighter.

[Fab2333]

Taylor doesn't strike me as being unknockoutable but who knows until it is proven.

Once again your chin theories are trash and purely opinions.

FACT - Taylor has ONLY fought CHAMPS in ALL his title fights.
FACT - Taylor is a PROVEN P4P fighter.:deal

[Amsterdam]

Taylor doesn't strike me as being unknockoutable but who knows until it is proven.

Once again your chin theories are trash and purely opinions.

FACT - Taylor has ONLY fought CHAMPS in ALL his title fights.
FACT - Taylor is a PROVEN P4P fighter.

A proven P4P fighter? Please.:rofl

[KayEpps]

After Taylor smashes Pavlik and then moves up in weight and continues to win - you'll will just find something else to complain about.

Who has looked good fighting - B-Hop - Winky Wright - Ouma - or Spinks?

Nobody looks good fighting these guys - with the exception on Judah/Spinks - so give the man a break. Everyone loved Taylor before the B-Hop fight - I see him putting on a performance come the 29th.

[IntentionalButt]

Who has looked good fighting - B-Hop - Winky Wright - Ouma - or Spinks?
:think




























:think






















Ok, I'm stumped, who?

[lefthook31]

The 5'6 Judah looked pretty good against Spinks, but that doesnt really matter. Taylor's inconsistency is really based upon lack of experience. He will improve to the fighter he was expected to become, just in a realistic time frame not super speed like his paymasters wanted him to.

[cuchulain]

It's just astonishing sometimes with boxing fans. You have a guy who took all he could handle from the smaller Wright and in not even talking about the decisions as it was close, struggled deeply. A guy who didn't respond well to the speed of Cory Spinks and a guy who's game plan fell apart under the pressure of the tiny Kassim Ouma.. and he's supposed to beat top 10 SMW's like Bute, Mundine, Froch, Andrade etc.

Not even counting the two top dogs. Of course, some fans think that being competitive with the 40+ Hopkins and Wright mean that he's a class above those names up there, even discounting that even though Wright and Hopkins are P4P ranked fighters, that they lack the intangibles such as size/speed/power combinations of the much larger SMW men.

For example, Froch is an average SMW, but he'd swarm Taylor and knock him out, because Taylor lacks the chin and dynamic ability under pressure to reverse the fight on Froch, he also lacks the power. Andrade would also just pressure until Taylor gave in and then he'd start landing his power bombs and that would be the end of it.

Taylor is mentioning that after the Pavlik bout, win or lose he is going up to 168. I seriously doubt he will fight a natural SMW in his arrival because any of those names, even a guy like Sakio Bika, would present so much trouble that the competition that he has been fighting could not due to the intangible differences. He also gives up his size advantage.

Pavlik will win, then everyone will agree. Classic stuff.

Taylor is big for a middlewt and he's the most talented boxer in the division.

I don't believe he can deal with Calzaghe or Kessler, but he might. IT's not outrageous to speculate that he might be competitive with another eight pounds.

BTW, you still haven't said what will happen with that pricey wine if (when?) Pavlik disappoints you.

[pioterbezkitu]

Calzaghe Kessler winner will probably go to 175, nothing will be left at 168. They'll look to Hopkins, Woods, maybe Dawson etc

All the belts will be vacated. Taylor could be successful.

Dawson? Nobody wants to fight a retard:nono








j/k :yep

[cuchulain]

Forget Joe and Mikkel, what top 20 SMW would Taylor be a favorite against?


Otis Grant ?

Robin Reid ?

Alan Green ?

[pit]

What is wrong with his track record? Two close victories over X, a close fight with a top P4P, dominated a former champ from 154 and then ONE horrible fight.

The Spinks fight was a fight where he was just being a moron. Spinks has one gear - SLICK! Make em miss, move, jab, repeat. Taylor moronically was sucked into this.

How many middleweights have Spinks speed, skill or consistency with such an awkward style???

exactly ,, Im not a fan of Taylor by no means but people are basing his with Spinks as an measuring stick of Taylor's skill.. Spinks is a hard fight for anyone Pavlic Included who by the way is stepping up in Competition against Taylor not the other way around .
Spinks is a slick south paw who has made some of the divisions heavy hitter look bad ,Mayorga , Karmazin,Piccirillo just to name a few but my point is , Cory is a very hard guy to fight despite his lack of punching power .

[Amsterdam]

Taylor is big for a middlewt and he's the most talented boxer in the division.

I don't believe he can deal with Calzaghe or Kessler, but he might. IT's not outrageous to speculate that he might be competitive with another eight pounds.

BTW, you still haven't said what will happen with that pricey wine if (when?) Pavlik disappoints you.

I'll throw it up against a brick wall.:D :D

[DoumB]

Firstly, what happened to all the people who said Taylor could beat Lacy?

If I go to boxrec, I think Taylor could hang with/beat Mundine, Bute, Froch, Lacy, Beyer, Manfredo, Tsypko and Andrade.

Bute would absolutly destroy Taylor.

[brooklyn1550]

Taylor could win a belt at 168, but I don't think he would ever be the ring champion like he is at middleweight. Calzaghe and Kessler would beat him and I would favor Bute and Mundine.

[Ramshall1]

I find it hilarious someone was dumb enough to make this thread.

[Amsterdam]

Taylor isn't going to do shit as a SM. A fighter of Allan Green's caliber would beat him.

Exactly.

[BITCH ASS]

Exactly.

That's it.

You need to go to time out.

[Axe]

It's just astonishing sometimes with boxing fans. You have a guy who took all he could handle from the smaller Wright and in not even talking about the decisions as it was close, struggled deeply. A guy who didn't respond well to the speed of Cory Spinks and a guy who's game plan fell apart under the pressure of the tiny Kassim Ouma.. and he's supposed to beat top 10 SMW's like Bute, Mundine, Froch, Andrade etc.

Not even counting the two top dogs. Of course, some fans think that being competitive with the 40+ Hopkins and Wright mean that he's a class above those names up there, even discounting that even though Wright and Hopkins are P4P ranked fighters, that they lack the intangibles such as size/speed/power combinations of the much larger SMW men.

For example, Froch is an average SMW, but he'd swarm Taylor and knock him out, because Taylor lacks the chin and dynamic ability under pressure to reverse the fight on Froch, he also lacks the power. Andrade would also just pressure until Taylor gave in and then he'd start landing his power bombs and that would be the end of it.

Taylor is mentioning that after the Pavlik bout, win or lose he is going up to 168. I seriously doubt he will fight a natural SMW in his arrival because any of those names, even a guy like Sakio Bika, would present so much trouble that the competition that he has been fighting could not due to the intangible differences. He also gives up his size advantage.

Pavlik will win, then everyone will agree. Classic stuff.

I don't agree with your extreme dislike for Taylor, but I do agree with the title to your thread, Taylor will not do well at 168 lbs. Even an old Calzaghe would be too much for Jermain.

[Brickhaus]

Bute would absolutly destroy Taylor.

When Taylor was fighting the level of opponents Bute has been fighting, he was humiliating them in a way that Bute hasn't come close to doing. Bute hasn't even fought someone on the level of a Joppy (who Taylor shut out), Edouard (who Taylor KOed in 3) or Vasquez (who Taylor turned into bloody mess).

YES, he looked bad his last couple fights against champions. Yes, his three fights in a row against top 5 P4P fighters were all close. However, best I can tell, Bute is a POOR MAN'S TAYLOR. He has the same strengths and flaws, and other than being naturally bigger, I can't think of how Bute would destroy Taylor so quickly. Fact is, Bute would be a HUGE step DOWN in competition from who he's been facing.

Other than that, Mundine might have a chance with his speed (but he by far has the worst chin of anyone Taylor's faced since Rios, who he KOed in 1) and Berrio would have a puncher's chance (Mack, who Berrio KOed, is also a poor man's Taylor), but even Kessler is not all that different from Winky in some ways, and he did manage to pull out a draw there. Calzaghe would probably swarm Taylor as he's been too tentative lately, but other than that, he should do fairly well at SMW. It's not like he couldn't use the size, and I'm inclined to think that he's looked sluggish his last few fights in part because he's been too weight drained, so moving up actually might do him some good.

Amsterdam, this propaganda is asinine. I'd challenge you to an avatar bet over Taylor beating anyone ranked 3 - 10 in Ring's SMW right now, but it wouldn't make a difference because even if he won by knockout you'd say the other guy was somehow robbed.

[Axe]

That said even Taylor does beat most of the top ten, the division is rather bleak after you get past the JC-MK winner.

[Amsterdam]

When Taylor was fighting the level of opponents Bute has been fighting, he was humiliating them in a way that Bute hasn't come close to doing. Bute hasn't even fought someone on the level of a Joppy (who Taylor shut out), Edouard (who Taylor KOed in 3) or Vasquez (who Taylor turned into bloody mess).

YES, he looked bad his last couple fights against champions. Yes, his three fights in a row against top 5 P4P fighters were all close. However, best I can tell, Bute is a POOR MAN'S TAYLOR. He has the same strengths and flaws, and other than being naturally bigger, I can't think of how Bute would destroy Taylor so quickly. Fact is, Bute would be a HUGE step DOWN in competition from who he's been facing.

Other than that, Mundine might have a chance with his speed (but he by far has the worst chin of anyone Taylor's faced since Rios, who he KOed in 1) and Berrio would have a puncher's chance (Mack, who Berrio KOed, is also a poor man's Taylor), but even Kessler is not all that different from Winky in some ways, and he did manage to pull out a draw there. Calzaghe would probably swarm Taylor as he's been too tentative lately, but other than that, he should do fairly well at SMW. It's not like he couldn't use the size, and I'm inclined to think that he's looked sluggish his last few fights in part because he's been too weight drained, so moving up actually might do him some good.

Amsterdam, this propaganda is asinine. I'd challenge you to an avatar bet over Taylor beating anyone ranked 3 - 10 in Ring's SMW right now, but it wouldn't make a difference because even if he won by knockout you'd say the other guy was somehow robbed.

I stopped reading after you said Bute hasn't fought anyone on Edourd's level.:good

[Brickhaus]

Oh, and PS, Allan Green ain't beating NOBODY significant ever again. Cat had 85% of his COLON removed. He's going to be wearing a shitbag for the rest of his life, and won't be able to digest food properly. Do you really think someone can retain their strength through that? I sure as heck don't. He'll keep fighting journeymen, but all he'll be is an interesting footnote when someone hits him with a low blow and explodes his chlostomy bag.

[Brickhaus]

I stopped reading after you said Bute hasn't fought anyone on Edourd's level.:good

Who? The guy who won;t get past the 2nd round of The Contender, or the guy who got beat down by a guy with 3 pro fights, or the guy who got beat down by the guy who lost to someone with 3 pro fights?

Bute hasn't fought shit yet.

And if you can't get past the Albert comparison, then you certainly can't say Bika's on the level that Joppy or Marquez was at. Point still stands. If you want to throw red herrings at me, be my guest. I'm not the one who's been kicked off for a month making shitty predictions.

[Amsterdam]

That said even Taylor does beat most of the top ten, the division is rather bleak after you get past the JC-MK winner.

I disagree, I'd even take Sakio Bika over him in a rough fight, late KO.

Taylor ought to think about his best ways to cash out after the Pavlik bout, because he'll be at the end of line.

[Fab2333]

Did Taylor fuck your mother.?

No, I'm serious - did he?

I find it hillarious that you continue to take the opportunity to discredit Taylor's performances almost every single day whilst praising a similar fighter in Mikkel Kessler who has faced worser competition.

"Oh but Kessler is better" - fuck off.

Yes, Taylor is unliked because he took close decisions and a close draw against Winky and Hopkins but the fact remains, he did enough in those fights to make it close.

He showed that Winky's defense isn't inpenetrable and he built up a lead on old man Popkins in a way that only he was able to do (no one has done it since and very few did it before)

He is a tall, strong, robust fighter with a good enough chin to take Popkins punches - you know, the same Popkins that dropped Tarver and the same Popkins that put De La Hoya down with a kidney shot.

He has enough punching arsenal that he can back Winky off of him, force him backwards and land shots almost at will against his guard.

He's got endurance and doesn't fade down the stretch

He's got a great coach who though they're having teething problems, are only a few performances away from being at their very best

AND he's about to move to a weight more natural for him to sustain.

I'm sorry but there is every indication Taylor WILL be a force at SMW.

So, like I said above, did he fuck your mother?

Damn Blocky that s**t right there is rather ruff, damn i knn\o u aint directing that to me, but damn me readin that ? hurt my feelings and its not even 4 me. Ease up, that could damage some1 self esteem lol

[cuchulain]

I'll throw it up against a brick wall.:D :D

What a waste !

( unless you're launching the new Calzaghe Museum in Cardiff)

[Amsterdam]

Who? The guy who won;t get past the 2nd round of The Contender, or the guy who got beat down by a guy with 3 pro fights, or the guy who got beat down by the guy who lost to someone with 3 pro fights?

Bute hasn't fought shit yet.

Edourd is a C level fighter with a glass jaw, Bute has destroyed C levels and has a win over 1 B level in Bika.

Here are the C level guys that Bute has dominated or wrecked:

Thobela
Lolenga Mock
Andre Thysse
Salem
Obede Toney

And all of them are more dangerous than Edourd to a MW-SMW. Plus, it's a matter of being able to analyse a potential bout and Taylor has no advantages over Bute, Bute is in fact a bit quicker and has less holes in his game. Bute TKO.

[Brickhaus]

Edourd is a C level fighter with a glass jaw, Bute has destroyed C levels and has a win over 1 B level in Bika.

Here are the C level guys that Bute has dominated or wrecked:

Thobela
Lolenga Mock
Andre Thysse
Salem
Obede Toney

And all of them are more dangerous than Edourd to a MW-SMW. Plus, it's a matter of being able to analyse a potential bout and Taylor has no advantages over Bute, Bute is in fact a bit quicker and has less holes in his game. Bute TKO.

Ignoring the rest of the post, I see? Tell me Bika's better than Joppy or Marquez with a straight face.

And yes, I'd pick Edoaurd H2H, despite being smaller, against half the guys you named. 2002 Joppy would have shut out all 5 of those guys, and beat Bika. You sorely overrate Bika just because he won rounds against Calzaghe on what you should just be able to admit was a bad day for Joe and because he drew with Beyer (who even you admit Taylor would beat handily).

[Amsterdam]

Ignoring the rest of the post, I see? Tell me Bika's better than Joppy or Marquez with a straight face.

And yes, I'd pick Edoaurd H2H, despite being smaller, against half the guys you named. 2002 Joppy would have shut out all 5 of those guys, and beat Bika. You sorely overrate Bika just because he won rounds against Calzaghe on what you should just be able to admit was a bad day for Joe and because he drew with Beyer (who even you admit Taylor would beat handily).

A shot Joppy would have trouble with some of those guys, trust me and I doubt a shot Joppy would defeat Bika.

I said that Taylor 'should be favoured' over Beyer, I never said he'd win handily. Beyer would definitley have a chance against Taylor.

Edourd is a glass jawed nothing, again I repeat this. Maybe we should hype up the very average Eromosele Albert for shutting him out and stopping him? Albert is a 154 pounder by the way.

And let's talk about Raul Marquez. A Light Middleweight no less, one of B- level quality by the time he met Taylor and you are counting him as a comparable win to Sakio Bika. Bika is a B level SMW, Marquez is a B- level LMW.

HMMMMMM.

Pff.

[C Money]

Outside of Calzaghe and kessler? Yes, taylor can have success. IMO, he'd demolish Bute who I'm less than impressed with so far.

Now JC??? Well that's you're dream matchup mate:yep

Ol Joe would give Jermain the lesson/ass whoopin that you long to see Taylor recieve.

[Amsterdam]

Outside of Calzaghe and kessler? Yes, taylor can have success. IMO, he'd demolish Bute who I'm less than impressed with so far.

Now JC??? Well that's you're dream matchup mate:yep

Ol Joe would give Jermain the lesson/ass whoopin that you long to see Taylor recieve.

Bute has too much for Taylor.

Anyway, come on now Taylor apologists, let's hear your diseased arguments for this disgrace!:yep

[Amsterdam]

If Sorry Joe can have success there(if a WBO is what you call asuccess) then surely Taylor can as well

What's so hard about SMW anyway??

It's a SLOPPY ..WEAK..division..with no prestige whatsoever..

Taylor has fought Hopkins twice..that alone eclipses Joey's shitty resume..

Taylor has had ALL 3 BELTS AROUND HIS WAIST..

That is something Joe WILL NEVER ACHIEVE:deal

So recieving two controversial decisions over a 40+ Hopkins eclipses 20 title defences of pure dominative fashion and over solid opposition with two A class fighters in the mix?

You all make me laugh.:rofl

[C Money]

Joe has done nothing that would make any sane person think he could beat Taylor...NOTHING


Joe would wax, tax, and out box that ass:good

[Amsterdam]

Joe has done nothing that would make any sane person think he could beat Taylor...NOTHING

Sure, dominate all but 1 opponent he has faced, have very little stylistic flaws at that, only one intangible flaw.

Not to mention, we saw what Taylor looked like vs. a tricky southpaw in Wright and saw how he responded to Spinks' speed. You are absurd if you think the very brutal Joe Calzaghe does not defeat Jermain Taylor.

But, this is the absurdity that boxing fans have to live with, so ride on.

[brooklyn1550]

Joe Calzaghe would dominate Jermain Taylor...absolutely dominate him

[lefthook31]

Joe Calzaghe would dominate Jermain Taylor...absolutely dominate him

Your nuts, he wouldnt dominate Taylor. Taylor showed he could compete with guys like Wright and Hopkins. Calzahge hasnt faced one fighter on the skill level of those guys. Calzahge just beat a one dimensional guy, which I put in the same category as Pavliks win over Edison Miranda. Lets see Calzhage beat a guy that can actually do some more things before we say he would dominate Taylor.

[brooklyn1550]

Your nuts, he wouldnt dominate Taylor. Taylor showed he could compete with guys like Wright and Hopkins. Calzahge hasnt faced one fighter on the skill level of those guys. Calzahge just beat a one dimensional guy, which I put in the same category as Pavliks win over Edison Miranda. Lets see Calzhage beat a guy that can actually do some more things before we say he would dominate Taylor.

Taylor has faced the better competition, but Calzaghe's foot speed and hand speed would give Taylor all sorts of problems. Spinks's own elusiveness and speed have Taylor a lot of trouble. Calzaghe's feints and subtle movements would keep Taylor off balance, not knowing when he was going to punch. Taylor wouldn't be able to establish his jab. I think Calzaghe would get on the inside, fire off quick/short/accurate combinations and get right back out. He would control the pace and control the tempo of the fight in my opinion. I would say he wins 9 to 3 or something like that.

[C Money]

Not that slapping mofo that pulls straight back everytime..

Hopkins would be two steps ahead of that sissy all night..:deal

Hopkins would rough that PUSSY up with the greatest of ease:yep

Joe is not a warrior..the WBO is enuff for him..Hopkins would never be satisfied with that souvenir

Not another poster talking about slapper???:lol:

Hardest slapper around:good

Calling him PUSSY?? :huh

After the Hatton/gatti routine??


What exactly did you take that put you in such a frenzy???:rofl

[Amsterdam]

Taylor has faced the better competition, but Calzaghe's foot speed and hand speed would give Taylor all sorts of problems. Spinks's own elusiveness and speed have Taylor a lot of trouble. Calzaghe's feints and subtle movements would keep Taylor off balance, not knowing when he was going to punch. Taylor wouldn't be able to establish his jab. I think Calzaghe would get on the inside, fire off combinations in there and get right back out. I would say he wins 9 to 3 or something like that.

Brook -

Joe would take Taylor out in 5 rounds or less with his swarming tactics and speed, Taylor would drop his defence and eat shot after shot and Calzaghe would in fact be the biggest hitter he had ever faced considering he's jumping up in weight.

All of that accumulation... TKO 4 or 5. Taylor would fall apart.

[Amsterdam]

Yeah, he's a real 'pussy'.

Especially considering that he's grinded out wins with two broken hands.

Broke his hand against Lacy in the 8th, continued firing that left like a madman down the stretch, even came in the 12th to brutalise Lacy further with his broken left. This type of stuff is legendary for this current generation, it was the definitive performance of 2006.

[Ramshall1]

Cal would not dominate Talyor, thats just absurd.

[Amsterdam]

Cal would not dominate Talyor, thats just absurd.

What is absurd is to think that Taylor has a chance in hell against Calzaghe.

What's even more absurd is the constant discredit that one of the best of this generation recieves.

[C Money]

What was Joe taking when he dumped the IBF title and kept that fake WBO crap-strap:lol:

He was too scared to fight the tougher IBF comp so the sissy dumped it..

WHAT A BITCH:deal

Such a bitch he's taking on kessler??


Such a bitch he gave Lacy the ass whipping of a lifetime and took the IBf belt??

What exactly are you going on about???

[Ramshall1]

What is absurd is to think that Taylor has a chance in hell against Calzaghe.

o.k., Cal can walk on water too. :roll:

[Ramshall1]

Lets see, Taylor fought Hops to a virtual draw in 24 rounds. . . but would have no chance against Joe "Little hands of Glass" Calzaghe?

[lefthook31]

Taylor has faced the better competition, but Calzaghe's foot speed and hand speed would give Taylor all sorts of problems. Spinks's own elusiveness and speed have Taylor a lot of trouble. Calzaghe's feints and subtle movements would keep Taylor off balance, not knowing when he was going to punch. Taylor wouldn't be able to establish his jab. I think Calzaghe would get on the inside, fire off quick/short/accurate combinations and get right back out. He would control the pace and control the tempo of the fight in my opinion. I would say he wins 9 to 3 or something like that.

Actually they are very similar. Both guys are really tough guys with big wills to win, and both are good solid boxer punchers. I think its a real good fight, but seeing Calzhage fight guys like Charles Brewer the way he did, leads me to believe he wouldnt dominate Taylor.

[brooklyn1550]

Actually they are very similar. Both guys are really tough guys with big wills to win, and both are good solid boxer punchers. I think its a real good fight, but seeing Calzhage fight guys like Charles Brewer the way he did, leads me to believe he wouldnt dominate Taylor.

There's only one way to know for sure...hopefully we get to see this fight in the future:good

BTW, great avatar

[Amsterdam]

Lets see, Taylor fought Hops to a virtual draw in 24 rounds. . . but would have no chance against Joe "Little hands of Glass" Calzaghe?

Hopkins and Calzaghe are two different fighters Ramshall. In fact, at this point Hopkins has little to no chance against Calzaghe as well.

We are not dealing with a peak Hopkins, nor a man who fights anything like a boxer-swarmer with an absurd workrate and accurate shots from all angles.

[Ramshall1]

Hopkins and Calzaghe are two different fighters Ramshall. In fact, at this point Hopkins has little to no chance against Calzaghe as well.

We are not dealing with a peak Hopkins, nor a man who fights anything like a boxer-swarmer with an absurd workrate and accurate shots from all angles.

if you wanna say you think Cal would win, fine I disagree but its a reasonable opinion. . . Cal is a good fast fighter. . . but if you try to say "Taylor has no chance" thats just silly and makes you look bad.

[Amsterdam]

if you wanna say you think Cal would win, fine I disagree but its a reasonable opinion. . . Cal is a good fast fighter. . . but if you try to say "Taylor has no chance" thats just silly and makes you look bad.

Well, many impartial posters would agree, posters with advanced experience with boxing, including Brooklyn1550, who is an american and an outside observer of Calzaghe with no bias.

I don't feel I am being biased, I feel I am telling it like it is and most knowledge analysts agree.

[IntentionalButt]

if you wanna say you think Cal would win, fine I disagree but its a reasonable opinion. . . Cal is a good fast fighter. . . but if you try to say "Taylor has no chance" thats just silly and makes you look bad.


Taylor may be a bigger than average middleweight, but he would have a clear physical size disadvantage against Joe. His speed at middleweight doesn't come close to Joe's at super. His power at middleweight isn't enough to put away welterweights. His workrate is unremarkable; Joe's is phenomenal. In what area does Jermain size up against Joe? Typically when someone is outclassed in literally every determinable area - it is safe to say they have no chance.

[JAM Killer]

I for one do not like Taylor's chances at 168, for a lot of reasons, size not being one of them. Plus, 160 is a lot deeper anyway, there are a lot of guys to fight there.

[Ramshall1]

Well, many impartial posters would agree, posters with advanced experience with boxing, including Brooklyn1550, who is an american and an outside observer of Calzaghe with no bias.

I don't feel I am being biased, I feel I am telling it like it is and most knowledge analysts agree.

I dont think a handful of fanboys on ESB count as "most knowledge analysts"

[Ramshall1]

Taylor may be a bigger than average middleweight, but he would have a clear physical size disadvantage against Joe. His speed at middleweight doesn't come close to Joe's at super. His power at middleweight isn't enough to put away welterweights. His workrate is unremarkable; Joe's is phenomenal. In what area does Jermain size up against Joe? Typically when someone is outclassed in literally every determinable area - it is safe to say they have no chance.

JT is a huge MW at 6'1". . . Cal is 5'11". Id say the overall size is about even. Cal would have the speed advantage, JT would have the Jab and Power advantage. Experience would be close but Id give it to JT since he's gone 36 rounds with Hops and Winky. . . .all three ranked higher p4p in my book than Cal.


4. Taylor
6. Winky
7. Hops
9. Cal

[Amsterdam]

Joe is 6'1 - don't let his boxrec record disserve you

Notice Amsterdam won't touch my posts? He talks about analysis and then when someone throws it back in his face, he spends the rest of the thread avoiding it like a little bitchfist.

I have already argued with you on the subject many times, you spin nothing new and there is no point since you will not agree with me on the subject of Taylor or send any opposing evidence to the theories that I present.

You're views on Taylor are that of any media fed tool, I argue with these views all the time and there is no point bothering with someone who is nothing but rude.

[Amsterdam]

Quite frankly, bitchfist - you couldn't reply to my post because it completely annihilated the premise of anything you've written and continues to annihilate the premise of anything you will write.

I'm simply all of your unpleasantaries towards a boxer that doesn't deserve it - then you turn around and praise Kessler?

I'm going to take you up on your three month Ban from ESB bet - When Taylor beats Pavlik's ass senseless - fuck off, and this time - don't come back.

3 months?

Deal, I hope you comply.:deal

[Toopretty]

I find it hilarious that you think a prime Kessler could beat a prime Toney, Bhop and Hagler....maybe its just me..

[Executioner]

I find it hilarious that you think a prime Kessler could beat a prime Toney, Bhop and Hagler....maybe its just me..

:yikes

[Amsterdam]

I find it hilarious that you think a prime Kessler could beat a prime Toney, Bhop and Hagler....maybe its just me..

He could. Just because those 3 are massive heralded names doesn't mean they beat everyone who is not a massively heralded name.

Kessler is a stylistic hell for Hagler outright, B-Hop would be a close fight and Toney shells up too much and is way to open for a jab to begin with. It's not like Toney was consistent either.

But Calzaghe beats all 3 with ease peak/peak, no question.

[Brickhaus]

I have already argued with you on the subject many times, you spin nothing new and there is no point since you will not agree with me on the subject of Taylor or send any opposing evidence to the theories that I present.

You're views on Taylor are that of any media fed tool, I argue with these views all the time and there is no point bothering with someone who is nothing but rude.

Yeah, I'm sure he's never actually WATCHED Taylor.

I hate to say it Amsterdam, but Blocky is owning your ass on this one. He's by far making the better arguments.

Nice to see you goaded people into the real argument, which is whether Taylor could beat Calzaghe. I personally think not, but it's a much more reasonable argument than the argument that Taylor would be outside of the top 10, or even the top 5, at 168. The only logical argument for him not doing well at 168 (which you haven't even made) is that his heart just isn't in the sport anymore, and he's going the way of Panchito. He's looked worse each fight lately, and that's probably the best explaination - lord knows he doesn't have that many ring miles on him. Still, he absolutely punked guys who were the quality of the guys 3 - 10 at SMW, even if he's regressed, he should still be able to beat that level of fighter.

If you think Taylor's overrated, fine, you're entitled to your opinion. If you think he's lost 4 of his last 5 fights, fine, but there's a reason you're in the minority there. If you think he's a C+ level fighter, well that's just plain dumb and ignorant.

[Amsterdam]

This clown knows fuck all about boxing, that's for sure.

Three month bet - you can fuck off - no returning for you during the Calzaghe victory either, you can just stay gone until the New Year, bitchfist.

Blocky, you show a lack of sensible knowledge with every post on these subjects. You cannot correctly analyse, the only thing you have down correctly is that Calzaghe is a stylistic hell for Kessler and one that will give him a one sided victory.

But you believe that Taylor is superior to Kessler, this is absurdity and only because Taylor fought bigger recognised names. You haven't even correctly assessed Kessler's ability.

[boxfan99]

3 months?

Deal, I hope you comply.:deal

How can you accept that bet when you already has a bet with me within that timeframe??? That looks like going back on your word.:twisted:

Btw, you would lose both bets.

[Amsterdam]

Yeah, I'm sure he's never actually WATCHED Taylor.


I'm sure he's watched plenty, but he surely overrates him.


I hate to say it Amsterdam, but Blocky is owning your ass on this one. He's by far making the better arguments.


Incorrect, you don't understand the amount of arguments I have had with this prick on this subject. He presents no argument that counters mine, except for the standard media fed viewpoint with a lack of true technical analysis.

Of course, you don't see that because you know only a limited amount on this subject anyway. But that's okay, I'm not about to start insulting everyone who I find incorrect like Blocky does, he's really intolerable to even talk with.


Nice to see you goaded people into the real argument, which is whether Taylor could beat Calzaghe. I personally think not, but it's a much more reasonable argument than the argument that Taylor would be outside of the top 10, or even the top 5, at 168. The only logical argument for him not doing well at 168 (which you haven't even made) is that his heart just isn't in the sport anymore, and he's going the way of Panchito. He's looked worse each fight lately, and that's probably the best explaination - lord knows he doesn't have that many ring miles on him. Still, he absolutely punked guys who were the quality of the guys 3 - 10 at SMW, even if he's regressed, he should still be able to beat that level of fighter.


I was never high on Taylor, even going back to the Marquez bout, I saw plenty of flaws in him. He's not regressed that much, he's just terribly flawed and has never warranted the amount of hype that he recieved. Everyone was high on him all the way through the Wright bout, now it's come full circle and it shows boxing fans' ignorance.

He stands no chance at 168, he falls apart under certain conditions and the bigger men will bring those conditions. How people don't see this shows immense amounts of goggle eyed views.


If you think Taylor's overrated, fine, you're entitled to your opinion. If you think he's lost 4 of his last 5 fights, fine, but there's a reason you're in the minority there. If you think he's a C+ level fighter, well that's just plain dumb and ignorant.


He's a B level fighter in my opinion, one who is overhyped. He matched up well with Hopkins and Wright for intangible purposes, they lack the intangibles needed to blast Taylor out of the water, especially a 40+ paced Hopkins.

Then people ignore how Wright struggled with Soliman, was being beaten to the jab early by Quartey, almost lost to Mosely in the 2nd bout.

Point being, Wright is a great LMW, a truly skilled and powerful young MW should beat him definitively, he's breakable, the Trinidad bout sent him to a level of regard that is not truly what he is capable of, and only because Trinidad at that point was not only way past his best, but also at his worst stylistic nemesis. And the only reason people didn't see this, is because they are ignorant, the level of surprise shot that victory up to more regard than necessary.

[Toopretty]

He could. Just because those 3 are massive heralded names doesn't mean they beat everyone who is not a massively heralded name.

Kessler is a stylistic hell for Hagler outright, B-Hop would be a close fight and Toney shells up too much and is way to open for a jab to begin with. It's not like Toney was consistent either.

But Calzaghe beats all 3 with ease peak/peak, no question.

You have reached a point of retardation in which there is no coming back.....

[Amsterdam]

How can you accept that bet when you already has a bet with me within that timeframe??? That looks like going back on your word.:twisted:

Btw, you would lose both bets.

I will sport your avatar when I get back if I lose, cool?

Our 1 month avatar bet happens when I am able to return.

[Amsterdam]

I'm sorry, shitwit - but seeing as you continue to ignore my posts where I point out Taylor's obvious strengths and Kessler's obvious weaknesses, what more can I do?

Continue wasting text on you? Pretend like you're capable of analysing boxing? No - that's pointless, I'll just go back to my initial question - Did Taylor fuck your mother?

We've discussed this many, many times. I point out counters to Taylor's strengths and you just regress back to apologist logic, then I point out Kessler's strengths and you just say they don't exist, when they do.

You are pointless to debate with.

The opening line here 'I'm sorry, shitwit' is already a turn off.

[boxfan99]

I will sport your avatar when I get back if I lose, cool?

Our 1 month avatar bet happens when I am able to return.

Fine, but if I lose, then I will still sport your avatar right after the fight, so I expect to recieve an avatar from you before you get the 3 months ban. Deal?

Btw, why do you make a bet with a liar like Blocky, do you actually expect him to keep his word if he should lose? He'll just turn up under another name that piece of shit.

[Amsterdam]

Tall fighter who works off of the jab, works well with combinations, is not too bad on the inside, has a solid chin, is capable at going the distance, has decent level power, will be a better fighter at 168 because he will be more natural there owing to his height


Doesn't use the jab well enough under pressure, combinations are okay but his accuracy is terrible for a top class fighter. Being buzzed by Wright and put on queer street by Hopkins doesn't indicate a solid chin, it indicates a suspect chin.

He has mediocre power, this has been proven beyond a doubt.

At 168, he gives up his size advantage, he'll be pasted. Only an idiot see's otherwise.



Can work to the body and to the head, showing signs of technical improvement with a trainer that he is still having teething problems with


He doesn't even comprehend in the ring what Steward wishes, he's regressed in most fans views. Not mine, same guy but against different styles. Again, Wright and Hopkins don't present the type of intangibles that unravel a guy like Taylor.

I'll again cite his inaccuracy, especially in comparison to Kessler's pin point accuracy.


Faced a champion in each of his last six fights, hard to look good against guys like Spinks and Winky.


Spinks would be pasted against any big MW who can punch and is competently skilled. Winky's showed having trouble with guys like Soliman, how is he going to match up against Abraham or Pavlik, who will just walk him down, unlike the timid Taylor?


Sorry, media opinion? Go fuck yourself, if I subscribed to media opinion, I'd believe that Taylor could beat Calzaghe (which I don't) - but Kessler vs Taylor? Taylor all the fucking way, he's multi-dimensional compared to that Euro piece of shit.


You totally subscribe to what you are fed, anyone who rates Taylor highly does, Taylor is nothing within the SMW mix, he will not defeat Pavlik because he can't handle pressure and Pavlik is just solid, he's not even anything special.

Kessler is better defensively, offensively and is not only quicker, but sharper, has better timing, jab, combinations and stamina. Kessler is 3x as good as Taylor.

You're a fucking imbecile.

[Amsterdam]

Fine, but if I lose, then I will still sport your avatar right after the fight, so I expect to recieve an avatar from you before you get the 3 months ban. Deal?

Btw, why do you make a bet with a liar like Blocky, do you actually expect him to keep his word if he should lose? He'll just turn up under another name that piece of shit.

I won't lose this, Taylor is a joke.

[boxfan99]

I won't lose this, Taylor is a joke.

We both know why you think he is a joke and that is because he chose not to accept ******s offer to fight Calzaghe.;) If Calzaghe was going to meet Taylor in November instead of Kessler, then you would have had a completely different view on Taylor.

But on another note, I don't like those "I won't lose statements", nothing is 100% and statements like that doesn't prove anything (leave those to Blocky), so I'll ask again, do you send me an avatar before your "possible" ban? If you don't get banned, you are more than welcome to change the avatar if you want to.

[Amsterdam]

Will you agree to have your IP banned for six months?:D

[Amsterdam]

We both know why you think he is a joke and that is because he chose not to accept ******s offer to fight Calzaghe.;) If Calzaghe was going to meet Taylor in November instead of Kessler, then you would have had a completely different view on Taylor.


Incorrect, I have always maintained that Taylor was garbage and Kessler was the bigger threat, I said I preferred the Kessler bout but that Taylor would be acceptable to gain more western acclaim.

I always maintained that Calzaghe would roast him and then people would claim Taylor was garbage after he got roasted.

You have read all of that wrong.



But on another note, I don't like those "I won't lose statements", nothing is 100% and statements like that doesn't prove anything (leave those to Blocky), so I'll ask again, do you send me an avatar before your "possible" ban? If you don't get banned, you are more than welcome to change the avatar if you want to.


I will.

[boxfan99]

Will you agree to have your IP banned for six months?:D

If you should prove succesfull in getting rid of Blockhead, then you will be my hero.:lol:

[Amsterdam]

If you should prove succesfull in getting rid of Blockhead, then you will be my hero.:lol:

He'll be on his way, hopefully(unless he just comes back with new names), Taylor will surely lose this fight, it's all wrong for Taylor.

[Executioner]

Get over it blocky, Taylor has AVERAGE punching power.

[Jinx]

Lucian Bute is gonna whoop Taylor if they fight!
GO BUTE GO

Bute beat Taylor...:lol: i'd be surprised if Bute doesn't get KOed by Berrio...

[THN]

If you should prove succesfull in getting rid of Blockhead, then you will be my hero.:lol::good And mine

[boxfan99]

He'll be on his way, hopefully(unless he just comes back with new names), Taylor will surely lose this fight, it's all wrong for Taylor.

I hope you are right, even though Taylor is my favourite at MW it would prove a small loss if it meant this forum got rid of Blocky, but I still don't think he will keep his end of the bargain, how can you be sure he gets an IP-ban? Personally, I think Taylor will win this and perhaps even stop Pavlik who is pretty easy to hit and have already been floored as a pro as far as I know.

[Lance_Uppercut]

Holy shit....When did Amsterdam become Bigtime9/Domngo? :patsch


What a joke...

[Amsterdam]

I hope you are right, even though Taylor is my favourite at MW it would prove a small loss if it meant this forum got rid of Blocky, but I still don't think he will keep his end of the bargain, how can you be sure he gets an IP-ban? Personally, I think Taylor will win this and perhaps even stop Pavlik who is pretty easy to hit and have already been floored as a pro as far as I know.

The key to this bout is Taylor's ability to handle pressure, which is non-existent. Taylor could not floor or stop Ouma, who showcased an average chin at 154, at 160, Pavlik has taken bombs that exceed Taylor's hitting ability.

Pavlik will just keep coming and throwing a high workrate and Taylor will fold and get KOed. Easy.

[Amsterdam]

Holy shit....When did Amsterdam become Bigtime9/Domngo? :patsch



What a joke...

Don't compare me to slime.

[Lance_Uppercut]

Don't compare me to slime.

If it looks like a duck....

[Ambition_Def]

I'll be honest with you. I don't like Taylor's chances at SMW at all. I'd give Cory Spinks a better shot.

In Taylor we have a guy who:

1. Has overrated power. His power was established off of blown up jr.welters and welterweights. And even then he could not put away alot of these guys.

2. Very limited skills and a bad listener. He had Manny Stewart screaming at him and still he wouldn't listen. Remember Vivian Harris? Exactly.

3. Wins off of heart, youth and energy. Nobody can take that from Taylor. He does well because of his heart to persevere through difficulty and has the youth and energy to do so.

The problem is youth, heart and energy are not going to get him to the top at SMW. There are alot of young guys there who are well schooled who do not fight 6 rounds of 12 like Bernard Hopkins. They all have very good punching power, and some have blinding speed like Joe Calzaghe. Kessler for his part is a very patient puncher who punches with amazing accuracy. And now Edison Miranda is at SMW as well...

I just don't see it. Really don't.

[Fab2333]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :rofl :rofl Holy shit....When did Amsterdam become Bigtime9/Domngo? :patsch



What a joke...

[lillarry]

It's just astonishing sometimes with boxing fans. You have a guy who took all he could handle from the smaller Wright and in not even talking about the decisions as it was close, struggled deeply. A guy who didn't respond well to the speed of Cory Spinks and a guy who's game plan fell apart under the pressure of the tiny Kassim Ouma.. and he's supposed to beat top 10 SMW's like Bute, Mundine, Froch, Andrade etc.

Not even counting the two top dogs. Of course, some fans think that being competitive with the 40+ Hopkins and Wright mean that he's a class above those names up there, even discounting that even though Wright and Hopkins are P4P ranked fighters, that they lack the intangibles such as size/speed/power combinations of the much larger SMW men.

For example, Froch is an average SMW, but he'd swarm Taylor and knock him out, because Taylor lacks the chin and dynamic ability under pressure to reverse the fight on Froch, he also lacks the power. Andrade would also just pressure until Taylor gave in and then he'd start landing his power bombs and that would be the end of it.

Taylor is mentioning that after the Pavlik bout, win or lose he is going up to 168. I seriously doubt he will fight a natural SMW in his arrival because any of those names, even a guy like Sakio Bika, would present so much trouble that the competition that he has been fighting could not due to the intangible differences. He also gives up his size advantage.

Pavlik will win, then everyone will agree. Classic stuff.


I find it hilarious that you are obsessed with Jermain Taylor.:rofl What the hell, did he beat you up in highschool or something?

[IntentionalButt]

I find it hilarious that you are obsessed with Jermain Taylor.:rofl What the hell, did he beat you up in highschool or something?
He isn't. Taylor is current news due to his upcoming bout, one that he is likely to lose.

Amsterdam can't stand hypejobs or boxing fans who subscribe to the smoke-and-mirrors surrounding them. He is equally harsh on guys like Khan and Margarito. If either of them had megafights in the next month, Ams would be letting just as much air out of their fans' tires as Taylor's.

[Amsterdam]

He isn't. Taylor is current news due to his upcoming bout, one that he is likely to lose.

Amsterdam can't stand hypejobs or boxing fans who subscribe to the smoke-and-mirrors surrounding them. He is equally harsh on guys like Khan and Margarito. If either of them had megafights in the next month, Ams would be letting just as much air out of their fans' tires as Taylor's.

The Margarito apologists and Khan apologists had little to work with. Taylor apologists will spin Hopkins and Wright as his competition to justify further fuck ups, I bet if Pavlik blows him out, they will still rate Jermain Taylor, while saying 'Pavlik is good, but not P4P, he just had Taylor's number', all the meanwhile still admitting Taylor to the top 20 P4P just for being competitive with Hopkins and Wright.

Then they think that he can move to SMW and defeat better bigger fighters than Pavlik, such as Bute and this class. The absurdity that I am stating here is what we have to live with.

These are the types of views that create P4P rankings and pass judgement on fighters.

[marting]

I find it hilarious that someone thinks that a fighter who has two wins over Hopkins, a draw with Wright, and both of those guys are now fighting OVER super middleweight can't have any success at super middleweight.

We're talking about a measley eight pounds on a big framed guy who stands 6 feet 1 inches tall for a division that has loads of guys who will be looking up at him and looking a helluva lot smaller.

[Lance_Uppercut]

He isn't. Taylor is current news due to his upcoming bout, one that he is likely to lose.

Amsterdam can't stand hypejobs or boxing fans who subscribe to the smoke-and-mirrors surrounding them. He is equally harsh on guys like Khan and Margarito. If either of them had megafights in the next month, Ams would be letting just as much air out of their fans' tires as Taylor's.

Only flaw there is, Taylor is NOT in the same category as Margarito or Kahn. He's proven himself in the ring already. Basically he, and Zakman, hate this guy because HBO likes him and they think he's lost every close fight he's had.

He also claims Guzman is greater then Taylor and that Joe C and Kessler beats many ATG's as he's listed.

And he says China Joe Hand is one of the best posters here. Nuff said. :patsch

[Pimp C]

I'm not a Taylor fan but this bashing of the man at 160 needs to stop. The guy has one of the best resumes in the sport. Taylor could very easily be successful at 168 he has the frame and skills to do so. I don't think he would beat Calzaghe but who does? He could beat one of the other belt holders though.

[Amsterdam]

Only flaw there is, Taylor is NOT in the same category as Margarito or Kahn. He's proven himself in the ring already. Basically he, and Zakman, hate this guy because HBO likes him and they think he's lost every close fight he's had.


You must selectively read.


He also claims Guzman is greater then Taylor and that Joe C and Kessler beats many ATG's as he's listed.


Calzaghe does beat many of the ATG's. Just because they are ATG's does not mean that they are held to a pedastool that only other cemented ATG's can knock them off of.

Kessler is a nice evolution of the boxer-puncher european style, he is excellent and has also shown intangibles. Where am I incorrect to pick him off of styles over a guy like Nunn, who is a lesser fighter in terms of technical skill than Kessler, which I have compared video footage. Or Hagler, jumping up a division against a larger man and at a tremendous styles disadvantage.

Or the always open to the jab James Toney?

This is not idiocy for me to make these statements. You have no researched it, you just take in whatever you are fed.



And he says China Joe Hand is one of the best posters here. Nuff said. :patsch


That he is.

[IntentionalButt]

I'm not a Taylor fan but this bashing of the man at 160 needs to stop. The guy has one of the best resumes in the sport. Taylor could very easily be successful at 168 he has the frame and skills to do so. I don't think he would beat Calzaghe but who does? He could beat one of the other belt holders though.
Let him fight ANY Super Middle before making such speculation. Until he does, it is just that, speculation.

Educated speculation, however, would tell us that struggling with a middleweight, two junior middleweight/welterweights, and a severely diminished Hopkins twice, remaining undefeated through all five fights by the skin of his teeth and solely on the strength of his natural athleticism (his only real asset, and what allowed him to pad a record and seem like a beast against limited opposition pre-Hopkins), bodes poorly for a move up in weight to a very deep division.

[IntentionalButt]

He makes Clottey out to be some bum with average skill. Talks so highly of Kessler so that when Calzaghe beats him it'll be one of the best wins ever. And even fucking picks Kessler over guys like prime Hopkins, Hagler and Toney.
I'll defend Amsterdam when he's right, and correct him when he's wrong. I do NOT like the way he talks about Joshua Clottey. He thinks only Margarito apologists rate Clottey. What he doesn't understand is that there is another perspective - that Joshua is the better fighter and that praising him does not automatically mean legitimizing Tony. I am in the 99th percentile that scored the fight FOR Clottey. I've posted my card, and will defend it anytime. Margarito did not win the entire second half of the fight, and the first four were a shutout for JC. Margarito IS a bum. Clottey fought him with an injury to, IMO a very close win, though I could see a draw or CLOSE Margarito win. This does not affect Margarito's status as a bum nor Clottey's status as a force to be reckoned with at welter.

Amsterdam has discredited JC opponents in the past, he isn't the type to hype up opponents of fighters he backs to benefit from a straw-man type of argument. Most other Joe huggers (see Blocky) spend their time trashing Mikkel mercilessly. It is a testament to any Calzaghe fan's graciousness and objectivity to admit the obvious; that it will likely be a very closely contested fight, and the toughest of Joe's career.

[BITCH ASS]

He makes Clottey out to be some bum with average skill. Talks so highly of Kessler so that when Calzaghe beats him it'll be one of the best wins ever. And even fucking picks Kessler over guys like prime Hopkins, Hagler and Toney.

Hopkins will beat Kessler now.

[Amsterdam]

He makes Clottey out to be some bum with average skill. Talks so highly of Kessler so that when Calzaghe beats him it'll be one of the best wins ever. And even fucking picks Kessler over guys like prime Hopkins, Hagler and Toney.

Incorrect, while Kessler would be an incredible victory for Calzaghe, I have grown to really like Kessler myself and I have a collection of 10 of his fights.

I've really never seen a better european boxer-puncher in my experience, he's something special. Toney and Hagler were not without flaws, Kessler's only flaw is tentativeness when he cannot control the pace, literally.

How does Toney control the pace? Why is Toney on a pedastool? Did Toney not lose to Griffin close?

And Hagler, struggling with great fighters like Duran who were well out of their best. Kessler is a SMW-LHW, and a future great at that weight in accordance if he keeps up what he is doing, win or lose vs. Calzaghe.

It has little to do with Calzaghe, more so my appreciation of Kessler. Why does it always seem like an agenda?

[Amsterdam]

Hopkins will beat Kessler now.


:rofl

I'm sure Pavlik will as well.

[BITCH ASS]

Incorrect, while Kessler would be an incredible victory for Calzaghe, I have grown to really like Kessler myself and I have a collection of 10 of his fights.

I've really never seen a better european boxer-puncher in my experience, he's something special. Toney and Hagler were not without flaws, Kessler's only flaw is tentativeness when he cannot control the pace, literally.

How does Toney control the pace? Why is Toney on a pedastool? Did Toney not lose to Griffin close?

And Hagler, struggling with great fighters like Duran who were well out of their best. Kessler is a SMW-LHW, and a future great at that weight in accordance if he keeps up what he is doing, win or lose vs. Calzaghe.

It has little to do with Calzaghe, more so my appreciation of Kessler. Why does it always seem like an agenda?

Kessler is too stiff.

Someone with good change of direction speed or good power and range will knock him out one day.

Either that or a powerful, compact volume puncher with power, and quick enough to get undereath his punches.

[Amsterdam]

Kessler is too stiff.

This is the outside view depending on what you have watched, but he's actually very fluid and has a world class defence. There are only so many ways to throw punches and I've seen him defend against any standard attack, while being open a bit to Andrade's awkward angles at times, thus leading me to think that Calzaghe will be able to land well enough.

A guy like Hopkins who works inside and cautiously? He'll never get past the jab at this point, but he would in his prime, thus why I said Hopkins/Kessler prime for prime is a good close fight.

Toney and Hagler I don't even regard on Hopkins level of tactical skill, they simply are not.

[BITCH ASS]

This is the outside view depending on what you have watched, but he's actually very fluid and has a world class defence. There are only so many ways to throw punches and I've seen him defend against any standard attack, while being open a bit to Andrade's awkward angles at times, thus leading me to think that Calzaghe will be able to land well enough.

A guy like Hopkins who works inside and cautiously? He'll never get past the jab at this point, but he would in his prime, thus why I said Hopkins/Kessler prime for prime is a good close fight.

Toney and Hagler I don't even regard on Hopkins level of tactical skill, they simply are not.

His world class defense consists of him being tall and holding his gloves up.

[Guru_Too_You]

I won't lose this, Taylor is a joke.

That joke has fought six straight champions, two multiple weight champions and two pound for pound top three fighters.

Surely he would look much better if he was fighting people who still havent even proved their capable of winning even a world trinket, let alone the linear, undisputed titles.

You're criticisms of Taylor have gone overboard.

His level of competition shits all over Calzaghe's and that HAS to be taken into account.

[Brickhaus]

Talks so highly of Kessler so that when Calzaghe beats him it'll be one of the best wins ever.

That's really the key. Plain and simple, despite his protestations, Amsterdam is a Calzaghe nuthugger at heart. He'll pump up Kessler because he's fighting him (after downplaying him previously), and he downplays Taylor in part because he knows Joe C. will dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge Taylor if the matchup is available, and when he fights some washed up fighter instead, he'll have a built-in excuse as to why Roy Jones or Antonio Tarver is better than Jermain Taylor.

While Amsterdam sometimes has good reasoned analysis, sometimes it's just hogwash, and he thinks that if he says it with enough conviction, it will just become fact.

The actual facts: Taylor beat Hopkins twice. Taylor dominated Ouma. Taylor beat Spinks. Taylor dominated Joppy. Taylor's never been floored in his professional career. Taylor's walking weight is at LHW and he's a big middleweight. Taylor's ring weight is already higher than what Manfredo walked into the ring with vs. Calzaghe. Taylor has a lot of heart and stamina. Despite a lack of great power, when Taylor lands, it tends to be effective (which is how he won all those rounds against Hopkins, Winky and Spinks). Taylor has good head and body movement.

Yes, he's also a bad listener, has mediocre power and mediocre agility, and yes, his output has decreased (which is what I'm referring to when I say he's regressed - he's ceased to be as aggressive as he used to be, but he's made no real strides defensively to offset his diminishing output), but he does have some big positives on his side, which is more than one can say for most of the bottom half of the SMW top 10. I'd favor Calzaghe vs. Taylor, and Kessler/Pavlik/Hopkins/Winky/Abraham are pick-em fights, but I'd favor him to beat anyone else between 154 and 168.

[BITCH ASS]

This is the outside view depending on what you have watched, but he's actually very fluid and has a world class defence. There are only so many ways to throw punches and I've seen him defend against any standard attack, while being open a bit to Andrade's awkward angles at times, thus leading me to think that Calzaghe will be able to land well enough.

A guy like Hopkins who works inside and cautiously? He'll never get past the jab at this point, but he would in his prime, thus why I said Hopkins/Kessler prime for prime is a good close fight.

Toney and Hagler I don't even regard on Hopkins level of tactical skill, they simply are not.

Kessler would not beat Toney.

Toney is one of the best fighters of our generation. He's old school and very well respected amongst many fighters.

Joe Frazier even has respect for Toney and they have very different styles.

[Guru_Too_You]

That's really the key. Plain and simple, despite his protestations, Amsterdam is a Calzaghe nuthugger at heart. He'll pump up Kessler because he's fighting him (after downplaying him previously), and he downplays Taylor in part because he knows Joe C. will dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge Taylor if the matchup is available, and when he fights some washed up fighter instead, he'll have a built-in excuse as to why Roy Jones or Antonio Tarver is better than Jermain Taylor.

While Amsterdam sometimes has good reasoned analysis, sometimes it's just hogwash, and he thinks that if he says it with enough conviction, it will just become fact.

The actual facts: Taylor beat Hopkins twice. Taylor dominated Ouma. Taylor beat Spinks. Taylor dominated Joppy. Taylor's never been floored in his professional career. Taylor's walking weight is at LHW and he's a big middleweight. Taylor's ring weight is already higher than what Manfredo walked into the ring with vs. Calzaghe. Taylor has a lot of heart and stamina. Despite a lack of great power, when Taylor lands, it tends to be effective (which is how he won all those rounds against Hopkins, Winky and Spinks). Taylor has good head and body movement.

Yes, he's also a bad listener, has mediocre power and mediocre agility, and yes, his output has decreased (which is what I'm referring to when I say he's regressed - he's ceased to be as aggressive as he used to be, but he's made no real strides defensively to offset his diminishing output), but he does have some big positives on his side, which is more than one can say for most of the bottom half of the SMW top 10. I'd favor Calzaghe vs. Taylor, and Kessler/Pavlik/Hopkins/Winky/Abraham are pick-em fights, but I'd favor him to beat anyone else between 154 and 168.

:good

We all have our favorite fighters that can cause a bias, conscious or not.

[Amsterdam]

That joke has fought six straight champions, two multiple weight champions and two pound for pound top three fighters.

Surely he would look much better if he was fighting people who still havent even proved their capable of winning even a world trinket, let alone the linear, undisputed titles.

You're criticisms of Taylor have gone overboard.

His level of competition shits all over Calzaghe's and that HAS to be taken into account.

My criticism's of Taylor are on target. I am not a nuthugger, nor a rabid hater, those two comments in regard to me are the only retort that I am recieving in return.

His competition can be broken down easily, as can his performances. Which I have done both.

You have said Taylor is ripe for the picking. He is a joke when assessing his hype, they hype up an average fighter and lead him along and then when he doesn't live up to the hype, they seek to cash him out, which is what the Pavlik bout it.

[Amsterdam]

That's really the key. Plain and simple, despite his protestations, Amsterdam is a Calzaghe nuthugger at heart. He'll pump up Kessler because he's fighting him (after downplaying him previously), and he downplays Taylor in part because he knows Joe C. will dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge Taylor if the matchup is available, and when he fights some washed up fighter instead, he'll have a built-in excuse as to why Roy Jones or Antonio Tarver is better than Jermain Taylor.


This is where I know you selectively read. Taylor has already avoided the Calzaghe fight anyway, I have stated multiple times even before it was announced that Kessler is a harder fight than Taylor for anybody, including Calzaghe.

Taylor is garbage at the P4P level, I have stated this all the way back to the first Hopkins fight, he's far too flawed. My Taylor dislike is NOTHING NEW, it's been around for over 3 years.

I have stated that Calzaghe vs. Jones/Hopkins or Tarver at this point would be absurdly ridiculous, I stand by this.

The fight I want is Calzaghe/Dawson after Kessler, win or lose. Dawson is the best at LHW, not Hopkins. Would you deny this?

I care nothing for your assessment of me because it's not even well researched.



While Amsterdam sometimes has good reasoned analysis, sometimes it's just hogwash, and he thinks that if he says it with enough conviction, it will just become fact.


'Eastside Boxing Forums' - A place to discuss boxing. If you dislike the material that I post, then ignore it. Especially instead of reading it incorrectly and making incorrect statements.


The actual facts: Taylor beat Hopkins twice. Taylor dominated Ouma. Taylor beat Spinks. Taylor dominated Joppy. Taylor's never been floored in his professional career. Taylor's walking weight is at LHW and he's a big middleweight. Taylor's ring weight is already higher than what Manfredo walked into the ring with vs. Calzaghe. Taylor has a lot of heart and stamina. Despite a lack of great power, when Taylor lands, it tends to be effective (which is how he won all those rounds against Hopkins, Winky and Spinks). Taylor has good head and body movement.


Stamina is one of his biggest problems. Still going back to that competition argument I see. I suppose that's the end all of boxing analysation for you guys.

Accuracy is also a big problem with him.


Yes, he's also a bad listener, has mediocre power and mediocre agility, and yes, his output has decreased (which is what I'm referring to when I say he's regressed - he's ceased to be as aggressive as he used to be, but he's made no real strides defensively to offset his diminishing output), but he does have some big positives on his side, which is more than one can say for most of the bottom half of the SMW top 10. I'd favor Calzaghe vs. Taylor, and Kessler/Pavlik/Hopkins/Winky/Abraham are pick-em fights, but I'd favor him to beat anyone else between 154 and 168.


You think Kessler/Taylor is a pick em fight? I rest my case, you cannot analyse shit and please stop selectively reading if you want to debate with personal attacks at me.

[IntentionalButt]

Ams, I know this may not be the most appropriate time and place, as you are busily waging a war on several fronts against the impressionable Jermainiacs :yep; but I really am curious as to your response to my views on Clottey, as I don't think I remember you ever addressing them?

[SugarShane_24]

I think this is a tad overboard. Taylor, talentwise, is still one of the better equipped boxers today. He may not have met the people's expectations, but he is still unbeaten and sitting on the throne.


I for one thinks he may lose to Pavlik after seeing the firepower he displayed against Miranda. But getting a title at 168 is far from inconcievable.

[Amsterdam]

Ams, I know this may not be the most appropriate time and place, as you are busily waging a war on several fronts against the impressionable Jermainiacs :yep; but I really am curious as to your take on my Clottey views, as I don't think I remember you ever addressing them?

The fight could have been scored for Clottey, I agree. I in fact had it a draw, but officially it stands as a win for Margarito and a win for Margarito was acceptable.

Margarito is garbage though, people went crazy over Clottey because he dominated him early. While he stood inside and bombed Margarito with fast combinations, this was more of a styles thing, it has no effect against guys who aren't going to sqaure up against him like Margarito and a shot Corrales.

Realistically, I have nothing against Clottey, it's just that people who think he can defeat top class WW's in this deep division get on my nerves because his issue's are too large.

Stamina/injury/fighting in spurts/flat footed.

He also just doesn't hit hard enough to gain a top fighters respect, unless it's Margarito, in which Margarito was there to be bombed with his best shots in succession.

It always gets on my nerves to see anyone get overrated overnight, and Clottey did because of the Margarito fight, some even still hold onto this, even with the glaring evidence that he's too flawed.

[Brickhaus]

Hey, I'm far from a Taylor apologist. I hope Pavlik hands his ass to him on a plate. I hate Taylor as a person and I've rooted against him before. I just don't agree with Amsterdam's assessment of Taylor, and I absolutely don't agree that he's lost 4 of his last 5 (I have it scored 3 wins and 2 draws). In any case, I hope he does fight Calzaghe after this because it would be a huge payday for Calzaghe, a big step up for his legacy, and a relatively easy win, plus as the cherry on top I'd get to see Taylor dominated by a more likable figure.

Against Calzaghe, Dawson would be his toughest matchup at LHW. It's also a high risk, low reward matchup, which is why I'd never expect to see it. H2H though, there are guys I'd have ahead of Dawson at this point. Getting rid of crazy Floyd Sr. was a big mistake by him - his defense had improved leaps and bounds under his tutelage, and since he has the best agility in the LHW division, the style suited him well. Against a quicker, bigger puncher than Adamek, Dawson would go down like a felled tree, and for that reason, I can't put him at the top of the LHW.

No, Am's Taylor hate is nothing new, but he's certainly never expressed it at this level until now.

[IntentionalButt]

The fight could have been scored for Clottey, I agree. I in fact had it a draw, but officially it stands as a win for Margarito and a win for Margarito was acceptable.

Margarito is garbage though, people went crazy over Clottey because he dominated him early. While he stood inside and bombed Margarito with fast combinations, this was more of a styles thing, it has no effect against guys who aren't going to sqaure up against him like Margarito and a shot Corrales.

Realistically, I have nothing against Clottey, it's just that people who think he can defeat top class WW's in this deep division get on my nerves because his issue's are too large.

Stamina/injury/fighting in spurts/flat footed.

He also just doesn't hit hard enough to gain a top fighters respect, unless it's Margarito, in which Margarito was there to be bombed with his best shots in succession.

It always gets on my nerves to see anyone get overrated overnight, and Clottey did because of the Margarito fight, some even still hold onto this, even with the glaring evidence that he's too flawed.

That's fair, he did get an inordinate push by scared Margarito fans desperate to excuse their man for a VERY rough night that didn't do his "would murder Floyd" illusion any favors.

However, I am about as far from a Margarito apologist as you are, and a) liked Clottey before that fight, b) had him winning, and c) still see him at least troubling, if not beating, many top ww's. I don't rate him top five or anything, but he can certainly hang with the top ten and make for very interesting, and for the most part exciting fights.

I'd still love to see Clottey-Simms someday (a fantasy match-up of mine a year ago), even though Travis let me down hard against Alcine.

[Amsterdam]

That's fair, he did get an inordinate push by scared Margarito fans desperate to excuse their man for a VERY rough night that didn't do his "would murder Floyd" illusion any favors.

However, I am about as far from a Margarito apologist as you are, and a) liked Clottey before that fight, b) had him winning, and c) still see him at least troubling, if not beating, many top ww's. I don't rate him top five or anything, but he can certainly hang with the top ten and make for very interesting, and for the most part exciting fights.

I'd still love to see Clottey-Simms someday (a fantasy match-up of mine a year ago), even though Travis let me down hard against Alcine.

Clottey doesn't strike me as the type to deal with movers well. Simms let us all down vs. Alcine, but he surely can move well.

I have no issue with real Clottey fans, but I have an issue with bandwagon jumpers who freak out after every 'surprise'. I picked Clottey to dismantle Margarito, he was on his way to stopping him, this was no surprise in the first 4 rounds.

All overrating comes from 'surprise'. Calzaghe was overrated after the Lacy bout, now he's being underrated again, it's how it works. I try to stay straight-lined the entire time and try to be objective. But some people think that being a fan and then supporting the fighter and even providing analysis of why he does well against X ATG or what not is being absurd, but only because the ATG is held to a pedastool.

I can provide footage of Hagler vs. Duran, many new fans haven't seen these fights. Take the same guy(Hagler), throw him in with Calzaghe, they will at least agree that Calzaghe would be landing shot after shot, teeing off on him...

It's not bias, it's just analytical prediction.

[achillesthegreat]

A proven P4P fighter? Please.:rofl
He has faced, beaten and hung with the best, thus he is one of the best.

[achillesthegreat]

Bute would absolutly destroy Taylor.
I'll accept your OPINION when you have some FACTS like Bute has hung with or beaten guys like Hopkins or Wright.

[Axe]

I disagree, I'd even take Sakio Bika over him in a rough fight, late KO.

Taylor ought to think about his best ways to cash out after the Pavlik bout, because he'll be at the end of line.

Taylor would win a wide decision against Bika. Just because Bika made Joe look old does not mean he is a good fighter. He would also beat Andrade and perhaps Carl Froch.

A fight with Mundine (who I don't rate all that well) would depend on who fights less scared; Mundine could outbox him with superior speed, or he could fold mentally like he did with Siaca and to a certain extent Kessler and let a slower fighter win on effective agression/Mundine's chin giving out.

[Amsterdam]

I'll accept your OPINION when you have some FACTS like Bute has hung with or beaten guys like Hopkins or Wright.

Bute would beat both at this point, badly.

[charlievint]

Ouma stands right in front of you. And Wright is by no means 'slick', he's in your face all night and is a master of using the guard by way of timing, leaving him at the mercy of a truly powerful bigger man if he were to be matched with one, say Arthur Abraham.

The skill level between Wring and Abraham are on different ends of the spectrum. Arthur is a decent Fighter with good skills, but Wink is a GREAT Fighter with GREAT skill...Yes Arthur is bigger and more exciting but that won't mean he can beat a truly great technician like Wright...

I mean Abraham lost to Mirands (Not on paper, but he lost) and Miranda isn't anywhere near the skill level of Wright....All he has is power which is a great equalizer, but won't have you on top forever.....Boxers need depth to their craft and Power is god given. Wink doesn't need size to compete at 168 b/c he's right around that weight anyways.

[brooklyn1550]

Bute would beat both at this point, badly.

I seriously doubt he would beat Hopkins badly...I don't even think Bute would beat him.

[BITCH ASS]

I seriously doubt he would beat Hopkins badly...I don't even think Bute would beat him.

Hopkins would fuck Bute up.

[IntentionalButt]

I'll accept your OPINION when you have some FACTS like Bute has hung with or beaten guys like Hopkins or Wright.

It doesn't take a great leap of faith to say that Bute would likely beat both.

Wright's talent would be wasted at 168, he simply can't compete there the same way Shane couldn't compete with him.

And when's the last time Hopkins fought a young, hungry fighter above middleweight?

[Amsterdam]

I seriously doubt he would beat Hopkins badly...I don't even think Bute would beat him.

Hopkins is too old. The Winky fight is not an indicator against a bigger, faster and more powerful man.

[charlievint]

Hopkins would fuck Bute up.

That's with out saying.....Bute isn't anywhere close to Hope or Wink in terms of skills, expereince and craft. Bute is a fun guy to watch but so was Gatti. Bute is young enough to be a champion but like Gatti he will be a champion with many limits.

[Amsterdam]

It doesn't take a great leap of faith to say that Bute would likely beat both.

Wright's talent would be wasted at 168, he simply can't compete there the same way Shane couldn't compete with him.

And when's the last time Hopkins fought a young, hungry fighter above middleweight?

Exactly, I'm not comparing Bute to either by way of legacy, I am saying he's too much for them at this point.

Hopkins is way past prime and Wright is way undersized, simple enough.

[C Money]

Bute would beat both at this point, badly.n

Amsterdam, what is it you see in Bute??

I just dont see a guy who is at the top level. He's a tall southpaw but doesnt have exceptional reach, and generally has his hands way too low, stands straight up, and doesnt move his head much.

IMO, he's lucky he gets past Berrio and will get BOMBED by Cal/Kess, and yes Jermain Taylor.

[Amsterdam]

n

Amsterdam, what is it you see in Bute??

I just dont see a guy who is at the top level. He's a tall southpaw but doesnt have exceptional reach, and generally has his hands way too low, stands straight up, and doesnt move his head much.

IMO, he's lucky he gets past Berrio and will get BOMBED by Cal/Kess, and yes Jermain Taylor.

It's not that Bute is overly special, it's that Taylor is overrated. Taylor cannot even deal with Spinks correctly, he will not deal with Bute either.

Bute gets destroyed against Kessler or Calzaghe. He defeats Taylor, or Wright for that matter. Hopkins is just too old, he's slipping each performance, Wright's going down also.

[C Money]

It's not that Bute is overly special, it's that Taylor is overrated. Taylor cannot even deal with Spinks correctly, he will not deal with Bute either.

Bute gets destroyed against Kessler or Calzaghe. He defeats Taylor, or Wright for that matter. Hopkins is just too old, he's slipping each performance, Wright's going down also.

Ok... Its you're Taylor vision rather than Bute's "skill", I understand even if I dont agree:yep

I also see Hopkins and Wright taking Bute as well, unless he rises to the level of his opposition?? Bute is over rated and it will show as he steps it up.

[C Money]

Taylor has yet to bomb a top fighter smaller than him, let alone bigger.

IMO, he bombs Bute:good

Bute isnt as skilled as Wright or SPINKS, and Cory is certainly quicker:yep

[IntentionalButt]

Bute, Calzaghe, Kessler and Mundine would all beat him, in my opinion. Calzaghe would not just beat him, but retire him probably. :yep
:thumbsup

It would probably be his most brutally dominant performance...at least Lacy had a "puncher's chance". :yep

[lefthook31]

Hopkins is too old. The Winky fight is not an indicator against a bigger, faster and more powerful man.

Tarver?

[Brickhaus]

It's not that Bute is overly special, it's that Taylor is overrated. Taylor cannot even deal with Spinks correctly, he will not deal with Bute either.

And exactly what is the similarity between Spinks and Bute that leads you to this conclusion? You're committing your own cardinal sin that you warned against....

Spinks is a crafty runner / counterpuncher who will launch a punch at a time and get on the defensive. Bute, stylistically, is similar to Taylor. He stands in front of the other fighter to be hit, and relies on body and head movement defensively, and when he throws punches, he tends to get upright and leave his chin exposed. There isn't anything to "deal" with with Bute. Bute doesn't appear to be a difficult nut to crack, as long as you know how to fight a rangy southpaw. Taylor's already facing a taller, quicker, rangier, stronger and more aggressive fighter in a few weeks. I don't see where Bute can possibly rank above Pavlik, unless you just think that Pavlik's defensive lapses are so awful that it makes up the difference, or you think that Bute's chin is better because it hasn't been tested yet. Either way, the quality of chin wouldn't make much of a difference vs. Taylor because he ain't knocking either guy out, and you already know that.

Pavlik KO Bute, Taylor UD Bute.

[lillarry]

He isn't. Taylor is current news due to his upcoming bout, one that he is likely to lose.

Amsterdam can't stand hypejobs or boxing fans who subscribe to the smoke-and-mirrors surrounding them. He is equally harsh on guys like Khan and Margarito. If either of them had megafights in the next month, Ams would be letting just as much air out of their fans' tires as Taylor's.


How is Taylor a hype job? :huh Hype jobs dont go 2-0-1 against two p4p fighters. And comparing him to Khan and Margarito is comparing apple and oranges. Their resume to Taylors is non comparable. Taylor has been in there with the best and has proven his worth to the boxing world. And lets get this straight, I was never a huge Taylor fan, but felt compelled to defend him from all the imo unwarranted criticism heaped on him. If we start breaking down all of the past champions titles reigns, we will find that they have had fights were they not at their best. Styles make fights, and Im confindent that this is the fight that will silence all of you critics:deal

[IntentionalButt]

How is Taylor a hype job? :huh Hype jobs dont go 2-0-1 against two p4p fighters. And comparing him to Khan and Margarito is comparing apple and oranges. Their resume to Taylors is non comparable. Taylor has been in there with the best and has proven his worth to the boxing world. And lets get this straight, I was never a huge Taylor fan, but felt compelled to defend him from all the imo unwarranted criticism heaped on him. If we start breaking down all of the past champions titles reigns, we will find that they have had fights were they not at their best. Styles make fights, and Im confindent that this is the fight that will silence all of you critics:deal
Yes, all great champions have had poor performances...but being held to close contests and not looking too fantastic five times in a row? All four are undoubtedly very good fighters, a couple of them were once great. The four of them are the very foundation of the Taylor hype machine. It isn't like he was an overrated hypejob before and then all of a sudden his last couple of years of accomplishment washed that away. He is overrated and hyped mainly based on the last couple years of accomplishment. People look at the wins on paper and talk about how he is great by right of his resume, which belies the fact that the names on that resume are an old and complacent Hopkins, a smaller and older Wright (who won), and two welterweights too small to be taken seriously (however talented...and again, there is plenty of credence to any argument that Spinks won). Strip Taylor of his last five fights? His resume is just okay, not too special. Analyze his last five fights, and performance in those fights - beyond the superficially impressive boxrec figures of 4-0-1 against top-rated former champs including a couple of p4p kings? Underwhelming. Struggling to beat good/formerly great fighters half your age and/or half your size shouldn't earn you the kind of praise Jermain is showered with. As of this moment, Arthur Abraham is the best middleweight in the world. Jermain isn't awful, but he isn't anywhere near the proven best either - he's an athletic, underachieving ham-and-egger who owes his promoters, corner, and several judges a couple of summer houses each.

[IntentionalButt]

I do hope that when I'm proven right and Joe absolutely dominates the shit out of Kessler, you take statements like this back.
Why the fuck would I do that? If Joe wins, Mikkel is still the #2 SMW in the world. You don't drop out of a #2 spot when #1 beats you. Likewise, if Mikkel wins, they swap. It's not suddenly going to become "Oh Joe was overrated" or "Joe is shot" and he shoots way down the rankings. It will be, Mikkel has taken the crown of #1, and Joe is still right behind him at #2 until/unless he loses to an inferior fighter (implausible).

[Fab2333]

That joke has fought six straight champions, two multiple weight champions and two pound for pound top three fighters.

Surely he would look much better if he was fighting people who still havent even proved their capable of winning even a world trinket, let alone the linear, undisputed titles.

You're criticisms of Taylor have gone overboard.

His level of competition shits all over Calzaghe's and that HAS to be taken into account.:deal :thumbsup