Jose Napoles vs Thomas Hearns at 147

[cotto20]

Prime for Prime for wins?

[Flea Man]

Hearns PTS. His dimensions and speed make him a hard match for Napoles, although Napoles has as good a chance as anyone at 147. he has the power to keep hearns smart, and the intelligence/chin not to get bombed out

[Mr Butt]

hearns fights from range and wins a ud

[Jorodz]

hearns fights from range and wins a ud

i agree. napoles is as slick and skilled as they come but he was small, even as a welter. and hearns just MASSIVE. he had the power, the skills and the jab to keep napoles at distance and set up the right.

[teeto]

For me Napoles is far (maybe) the better and more skilled fighter, but i must say there is a size advantage, even at the equal poundage that favours Hearns. If Heanrs goes on offense and smashes him towards the ropes he can force the ref to intervene after a bloody one has ensued imo.

[Black Eyes To You]

Hearns stays outside and KO's him in the middle rounds

[teeto]

Everyone thinks that Heanrs would be better to stay outside because of his longer limbs and height advantage, while i'm not saying this is outright wrong, people must realise that (well what i have always thought personally) likely the best recipe for beating the great Jose Napoles is to use superior strength to back him up and keep his back against the ropes and unload. One of the main reasons i've always thought Carmen Basilio would be a bad match for him, and very possibly Julio Cesar Chavez at 135, though i think Napoles is capable in that one also.

Whilst it is true that Hearns' physical dimensions are not similar to that of Basilio's. Hearns is a fine offensive fighter, and at 147, in my opinion better in that aspect than in his hectic boxing mode, which his defence and such was improved on at 154.

[Jorodz]

Everyone thinks that Heanrs would be better to stay outside because of his longer limbs and height advantage, while i'm not saying this is outright wrong, people must realise that (well what i have always thought personally) likely the best recipe for beating the great Jose Napoles is to use superior strength to back him up and keep his back against the ropes and unload. One of the main reasons i've always thought Carmen Basilio would be a bad match for him, and very possibly Julio Cesar Chavez at 135, though i think Napoles is capable in that one also.

Whilst it is true that Hearns' physical dimensions are not similar to that of Basilio's. Hearns is a fine offensive fighter, and at 147, in my opinion better in that aspect than in his hectic boxing mode, which his defence and such was improved on at 154.

you raise a good point-relatively poor physical strength and cuts were always naoples' weaknesses. he could be bullied but as you said, hearns just wasn't that type of fighter. he enjoyed setting up opponents from range, wearing them down with body punches and jabbing the shit out of them until his hooks and right could land with precision. i just see that working on the smaller napoles

[Mr Butt]

Everyone thinks that Heanrs would be better to stay outside because of his longer limbs and height advantage, while i'm not saying this is outright wrong, people must realise that (well what i have always thought personally) likely the best recipe for beating the great Jose Napoles is to use superior strength to back him up and keep his back against the ropes and unload. One of the main reasons i've always thought Carmen Basilio would be a bad match for him, and very possibly Julio Cesar Chavez at 135, though i think Napoles is capable in that one also.

Whilst it is true that Hearns' physical dimensions are not similar to that of Basilio's. Hearns is a fine offensive fighter, and at 147, in my opinion better in that aspect than in his hectic boxing mode, which his defence and such was improved on at 154.


when i say fight's at range i am not suggesting a defensive display and perhaps i should of made that clear.hearns at 147 would fight with spearing fast hard jabs with thunderbolt rights and no doubt napoles would be badly marked and a stoppage win at welterweight for hearns is never out of the question but napoles was a classy fighter by anyones standards a prime napoles gets my vote to last but its close. a napoles of the stracey fight gets the same treatment hearns gave to cuevas

good post teeto

[teeto]

you raise a good point-relatively poor physical strength and cuts were always naoples' weaknesses. he could be bullied but as you said, hearns just wasn't that type of fighter. he enjoyed setting up opponents from range, wearing them down with body punches and jabbing the shit out of them until his hooks and right could land with precision. i just see that working on the smaller napoles
It's very possible Jorodz. I just wanted to make that point because i felt people were simply picking Hearns to outbox his man here because of the physical 'advantages' he enjoys over Napoles. I reckon if Heanrs tries to pound Napoles and not let him start weaving any pure magic he makes his best decision all night, but i'm not saying you're wrong at all.

[teeto]

when i say fight's at range i am not suggesting a defensive display and perhaps i should of made that clear.hearns at 147 would fight with spearing fast hard jabs with thunderbolt rights and no doubt napoles would be badly marked and a stoppage win at welterweight for hearns is never out of the question but napoles was a classy fighter by anyones standards a prime napoles gets my vote to last but its close. a napoles of the stracey fight gets the same treatment hearns gave to cuevas

good post teeto
Yeah i agree on the Stracey version comment, and good post by yourslef as well there. I just think that at the very highest level if there is a weakness of Thomas Hearns' stylistic make-up at 147 pounds, it would be likely his defence, not terrible, but someone like Napoles in a chess match might have the skillset to exploit such. Like i say though, even if that type of bout did ensue, he physical advantages of the hitman might still sway that for him. mposing his will i reckon more or less seals it for Hearns, just my opinion.

[Flea Man]

Teeto; I DO believe Hearns has a better chance due to his size, I won't lie to you, and here's why.

Hearns showed in the Leonard fight that if someone could get in on him and throw some serious leather that he could be hurt. Whilst not as fast as Leonard, Napoles was brilliant at throwing hooks, and could easily catch Hearns on the end of one. I wasn't suggesting that Hearns could easily outbox Napoles due to his size (Napoles is no easy fight for ANYBODY as you well know being a fan) but that he SHOULD use his size (i.e second half o the Leonard fight) to avoid getting hurt and put away by someone who, if we're going by the 147 version of Hearns, was a far more intelligent fighter and had amongst the toughest chins of all time at the weight.


I was just trying to stay away from; Hearns cuts him, which is the obvious answer. Sadly, I do think this would probably be the case.

Before there was a 'Who has the best chance of beating Hearns at 147' and I believe I suggested Napoles. He would have a way of countering Hearns' bombs (well, would have a way of avoiding getting hit flush) and was very good at controlling the range. He would be at just the right point to not be quite on the end of Hearns punches IMO.

However, if anyone is going to put Napoles lights out, it's probably Hearns. I think it's doubtful though; it was usually 'sluggers' that got put out by Hearns in devastating fashion from what I can see (not saying Duran was a slugger but he couldn't really employ any other tactics than attempting to fight Hearns, which clearly wasn't a good idea) as Hearns is a bad style match-up for short, aggressive fighters (until he got to MW obviously; different story)

I would like to hear other opinions though, as I'm sure someone could forumulate a plan for Napoles in this one :good

[teeto]

Teeto; I DO believe Hearns has a better chance due to his size, I won't lie to you, and here's why.

Hearns showed in the Leonard fight that if someone could get in on him and throw some serious leather that he could be hurt. Whilst not as fast as Leonard, Napoles was brilliant at throwing hooks, and could easily catch Hearns on the end of one. I wasn't suggesting that Hearns could easily outbox Napoles due to his size (Napoles is no easy fight for ANYBODY as you well know being a fan) but that he SHOULD use his size (i.e second half o the Leonard fight) to avoid getting hurt and put away by someone who, if we're going by the 147 version of Hearns, was a far more intelligent fighter and had amongst the toughest chins of all time at the weight.


I was just trying to stay away from; Hearns cuts him, which is the obvious answer. Sadly, I do think this would probably be the case.

Before there was a 'Who has the best chance of beating Hearns at 147' and I believe I suggested Napoles. He would have a way of countering Hearns' bombs (well, would have a way of avoiding getting hit flush) and was very good at controlling the range. He would be at just the right point to not be quite on the end of Hearns punches IMO.

However, if anyone is going to put Napoles lights out, it's probably Hearns. I think it's doubtful though; it was usually 'sluggers' that got put out by Hearns in devastating fashion from what I can see (not saying Duran was a slugger but he couldn't really employ any other tactics than attempting to fight Hearns, which clearly wasn't a good idea) as Hearns is a bad style match-up for short, aggressive fighters (until he got to MW obviously; different story)

I would like to hear other opinions though, as I'm sure someone could forumulate a plan for Napoles in this one :good
Well i agree with you completely. Maybe i never made that clear. Like i said i think that using his size would be a factor as well, i just thought that he would do better to do so in the way that would be imposing his will rather than trying to outbox Napoles, which because of his extreme size advantage might prove a winner anyway but i do think he's susceptible in that regard when sharing the ring with this opponent. I pretty much agree with your post, if Heanrs goes on offense and doesn't give Napoles to start anything special up, then i'd reckon he'd win.

Technically, at long range, Napoles can use his absolutley prolific jusgement pf distance, and head movement, brilliant footwork to slide in and out, at angles, to land counters, when he lands one, as you know, many more come in succession. He might just not have the strength to fully capitalise, that's my assessment of this fight.

[he grant]

Hearns is overated on this board. People tend to forget his shakey chin and stamina. In addition he ended his welter career at only 22. I think Napoles takes him apart and wins a decision or by late round TKO ... Napoles was a great welterweight.

[teeto]

Hearns is overated on this board. People tend to forget his shakey chin and stamina. In addition he ended his welter career at only 22. I think Napoles takes him apart and wins a decision or by late round TKO ... Napoles was a great welterweight.
Well it's not my standpoint outright, but i'm very glad someone said this.

[Mr Butt]

Technically, at long range, Napoles can use his absolutley prolific jusgement pf distance, and head movement, brilliant footwork to slide in and out, at angles, to land counters, when he lands one, as you know, many more come in succession. t.


that sounds like a plan teeto

[Flea Man]

Teeto; :good

heGrant; whilst I appreciate someone giving a different slant (and glad someone has backed up Napoles) to say he is 'overrated' is a bit of a silly statement.

He may have ended his WW tenure early, but lost ONCE; to H2H one of the greatest Welters of all-time, in a 14-round thriller that Hearns dominated for quite a few rounds.

If Hearns is outboxing Leonard (and if you watched the fight you'd see how well he does it) then that shows he has very, very good boxing skills.

He had a beautiful jab. He was the first to stop Cuevas I believe, and this is when Cuevas was seriously feared. This shows Hearns was hard to intimidate at this weight, and also demonstrates the potency of his speed and right hand.

Whilst Hearns resume isn't fantastic at 147, like Aaron pryor he can be judged in hypothetical match-ups due to the skills he put on display.

[teeto]

that sounds like a plan teeto
It does, like i say though, i only see it as tecnhically correct, as Hearns might just be too strong etc. Who knows?

[Mr Butt]

i think its napoles only plan as hearns coming forward being aggressive would negate the reach difference as long as napoles could slide and counter he is then the range to work

[teeto]

i think its napoles only plan as hearns coming forward being aggressive would negate the reach difference as long as napoles could slide and counter he is then the range to work

:good good post Mr B.

[laxpdx]

I feel if Napoles utilized his skills properly he could duck and slip and then counter to Hearns' ribs-or chin. Because Hearns wasn't at peak form at 147, I feel Jose, with his combination of immense skills and punching power, would slowly wear Hearns down for either a UD or late TKO.

However, at 154, it would be another story!

[Sweet Pea]

I still don't get all this talk about Hearns being pre-prime at 147. He showed a lot of his best stuff there, IMO. Stylistically, he should be as wrong as it gets for Napoles. I agree with Teeto on the most pratical strategy for beating Napoles. However, in this case Hearns is one of the very few capable of out-boxing him as well as out-bombing him. I think Napoles's best chance to win this fight is to approach it like he did with Monzon. Hearns's defense wasn't as reliable as Monzon's, nor especially his chin. Against a pressuring, hooking Napoles, I think Hearns may be caught cold early on.

If he survives, I think he is capable of out-boxing Napoles in a similar way to how he did against Leonard. On the other hand, Napoles I think would be more commited to pure pressure fighting than Leonard, who was more intent on picking his spots and going all out in single bursts. I don't think Napoles would take any more punishment than Leonard did, but he may be inflicting more on Hearns in the mean time.

If I were a betting man, I'd probably favor Hearns by decision. However, I could see Napoles hurting him early as well. I just don't think he'd finish him off that early if Leonard couldn't.

[teeto]

I still don't get all this talk about Hearns being pre-prime at 147. He showed a lot of his best stuff there, IMO. Stylistically, he should be as wrong as it gets for Napoles. I agree with Teeto on the most pratical strategy for beating Napoles. However, in this case Hearns is one of the very few capable of out-boxing him as well as out-bombing him. I think Napoles's best chance to win this fight is to approach it like he did with Monzon. Hearns's defense wasn't as reliable as Monzon's, nor especially his chin. Against a pressuring, hooking Napoles, I think Hearns may be caught cold early on.

If he survives, I think he is capable of out-boxing Napoles in a similar way to how he did against Leonard. On the other hand, Napoles I think would be more commited to pure pressure fighting than Leonard, who was more intent on picking his spots and going all out in single bursts. I don't think Napoles would take any more punishment than Leonard did, but he may be inflicting more on Hearns in the mean time.

If I were a betting man, I'd probably favor Hearns by decision. However, I could see Napoles hurting him early as well. I just don't think he'd finish him off that early if Leonard couldn't.
I agree with this as well, virtually we're on the same page consistently throughout this one. The only thing that we may slightly differ on is that i see Hearns as slighlty more 'complete' stylistically, so to speak, or more composed and polished as a boxer at 154 pounds. But that would be nitpicking, and isn't really the subject here.

[he grant]

The pre-prime talk about Hearns at welter was because it is true. He was just 22. He had been tested by Weston and was lucky a thumb stopped Weston from taking over their bout. After blowing out Cuevas he had a difficult time being extended by Shields. Leonard showed not only his questionable stamina and chin but his inability to clinch when hurt. It was a few years later as a bigger , stronger man at 154c that Hearns hit his prime.

Napoles was a big puncher and had a great chin. Look at the bombs he takes from Monzon without going down. I feel he could easily repeat Leonards performance against Hearn's . He was prone to cuts and that could be a problem.

[Sweet Pea]

The pre-prime talk about Hearns at welter was because it is true. He was just 22.Age is only a number in boxing. Surely you know that argument isn't going to do you any favors here?

He had been tested by Weston and was lucky a thumb stopped Weston from taking over their bout.At the time he took on Weston, I agree that he was pre-prime. I wasn't saying that he hit his prime the second he stepped in a boxing ring at the Welterweight limit. I was saying he eventually hit his prime at this weight, and showed a lot, if not most of, his best stuff there.

After blowing out Cuevas he had a difficult time being extended by Shields.If by "difficult time" you mean winning every round en route to a 12th round stoppage in a 15 rounder, then sure. News flash, he was extended the distance by Luigi Manchillo and Ernie Singletary when he stepped up as well.

Leonard showed not only his questionable stamina and chin but his inability to clinch when hurt. It was a few years later as a bigger , stronger man at 154 that Hearns hit his prime. Leonard didn't really expose much, IMO. Hearns was dominating that fight when Leonard wasn't connecting with flush shots. It wasn't Hearns's stamina that let him down, it was Leonard's fists. Immediately after being hurt he applied the exact strategy necessary for regaining control of the bout. This didn't need an extra fight and years of experience, he showed in that fight that he was able to adapt on the fly and succeed at it. He lost that fight because Leonard simply wouldn't be denied that night. I don't see too many Welters dealing with Leonard the way Hearns was able to, nor do I see Hearns doing much better at 154.

[Manassa]

Napoles KO13.

[McGrain]

Hearns was in a weight-making camp at 147. He had to be careful. I think that makes a difference. Additionally, he fought a lot of good fighters, which always improves a fighter. Yeah, I think like most guys he got better as he matched better (Which is true within reason).

I like Hearns best at 154 where he still enjoys massive physical advantages but he's learned the tough lesson of the Sugar bout and redeemed himself with the Duran destruction.

[WhataRock]

I dont see how Hearns having a hard time with Shields, which he didnt really, is such a negative.

Seeing as though Randy gave almost everyone a hard time and very often "extended" them, because thats what was required to best him.

[red cobra]

as great and as menacing as Hearns was..he's no match for the great Mantequilla, and I remember him during his welter title reign, and he was peerless. Despite the possibility of cuts around the eyes, Napoles would have ko'ed Hearns in impressive fashion..as he was a rare, pinpoint accurate, lethal puncher who could and would find that opening he needed, and finish off Hearns far more emphatically, quicker and suddenly than did Leonard. Napoles ko8 Hearns.

[Tin_Ribs]

Napoles by late TKO, provided he doesn't cut; I've always felt he had the perfect style to beat Hearns. His brilliant footwork and judgement of distance coupled with with the bobbing, weaving style he employed would place him in prime position to unload to both body and head with surgical accuracy.

[he grant]

When I say he was pre-prime at 22 it is because I feel he hit his prime three years later at 154. He was stronger, he had more big fight experience, more confidence and learned how to clinch when hurt, something he lacked in the Leonard bout where he rocked like a boat on rough waters. He had also went 15 with Benetiez at 154, beating his first great fighter.

He was tested by Sheilds. Many rounds were close and Hearn's had to survive fatigue when his big shots could not take Randy out in the 4th.

Losing to Leonard is no insult as Ray was one of the two or three best welterweights ever but let's keep in mind how he lost, not a decision but a decisive KO. His chin was a question mark, his ability to take it to the body was a question mark and his stamina was a question mark. Leonard was not the only fighter that could have exploited these weaknesses. The fight turned in the 6th with one body shot as Ray almost stopped Tommy , rail thin at 145. Hearn's ability to take punishment, never great, was less at 147 than 154.

People that have studied Napoles know he was extremely slick, hard hitting, fast and courageous. I feel he had the skills, if his skin holds up, to exploit the same weaknesses on a 22 year old Hearns that Leonard did. I am not saying that Hearns was not a terrific welter, he was. Maybe even a top ten. However, the best Hearns was at 154, his prime.

[JohnThomas1]

Hearns is definitely one of the fighters that can carve up Napoles tender skin IMO. Napoles ain't taking him out early and nor is he turning on a Hagler like blitz when the crimson spills. Hearns by TKO for me.

[Ted Spoon]

It's a very interesting match-up because Hearn's presents the ideal style to get Napoles stuck in the mud, but as could Leonard, Napoles could 'hunt'. Against Monzon, Napoles is able to leap-in with well feinted, sweeping hooks, but Monzon was fantastic at leaning back and made out of stone. It was never going to come, against Hearn's it could.

Napoles' cheek bones were his hardest opponents; he just seemed to cut very easily around the Zygo, but he was brilliant at avoiding punches whilst sneakily getting close to you. His chin was not too shabby either.

Hearn's can jab, and even step it up, but Napoles was clever, dangerously so. He always liked to keep things in check while fighting, and this is what has led fans to believe that he was just a bit too lethargic to step it up if need be, but Napoles was all about control, and with Hearn's looking to pilot about the ring, Napoles would be coming out with some venomous retorts.

Napoles could slip, either inside or outside the jab and skip forward in the same motion - it was this manoeuvre that began to dismantle your game. Monzon was a fighter that, on paper, shares many traits with Hearn's. Sure, Tommy had more zap, but Monzon was a harder fighter to nail and Napoles has so many tricks to play possum (feign injury) that he may be at the end of a peppering only to then doop the Hitman, so to speak, and turn the fight on its head.

It use to be a simple fight for Ted Spoon to sum-up with that combination of speed and range threatening such tender skin, but in reality, at every interval, Hearn's could be at the mercy of Napoles' exquisite delivery. There was not a punch he did not have, and he usually did not throw them unless they landed.

Napoles was best friends with the 'pocket', so his forehead usually got popped back with sharp jabs, but he was always there, brooding and planning. He would not allow Hearn's to dictate, and the moment Hearn's really thought he should go for it (a liability he sometimes found hard to shake), Napoles would step inside the cross-fire and hunt the hunter.

Hearn's was not knocked over by a breeze, but Napoles could dig and that chin was not the best. Hearn's must hope on some slicing because every extra minute spent with Napoles could effectively get him closer to losing.

It would be highly engaging stuff.

[he grant]

Great stuff Ted.

[Robbi]

Hearns is definitely one of the fighters that can carve up Napoles tender skin IMO. Napoles ain't taking him out early and nor is he turning on a Hagler like blitz when the crimson spills. Hearns by TKO for me.

You're probably right.

[Manassa]

Billy Backus was basically a white Hearns and look what happened to him. Alright, he beat Napoles on cuts the first time but it was a fluke.