In response to Primenal

[boxingcar]

He does make some good points.
1. Grappling is useless with fighting multiple opponents.
- so is striking. Unless you think you can replicate what you see in bruce lee movies. Remember , there's difference between professional stunt men and real opponents. If two , or 5 guys come at you , you're odds of beating them all aren't on your side. Especially if they're also armed (with baseball bats , guns or knives).
I can always think of a few exceptions though. Such as these
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[Only registered and activated users can see links]
But again , these are only exceptions. & there's a huge difference when you're confronted to trained fighters (or armed opponents).

[boxingcar]

2. I'm willing to bet if somebody puts me in a guillotine, or something, and I take 2 fingers, and grab there eyeball...I bet they let go, or I take there eyeball at least.

Probably. I'd personally aim for the balls. But here again , you have to keep in mind that a well sunk guillotine. (such as this for example).
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Puts you in a position where you'll find it hard to either bite or aim for your opponent's eyes. Chances are he could very well break your neck before leaving you unconscious. In this video , things are different.

It's a sport , there's also a ref to stop the fight. But you better hope never to be confronted to a situation like this especially if the guy happens to be an asshole (and keeps choking you even after you're unconscious).
Also submissions are more than just guillotines.

[boxingcar]

3. Grappling does not work if the size difference is to much. If your a 150 pound man going up against a 250 pd pro linebacker....Unless your freakin delusional you'd know your going to get your ass crushed! This is where boxing/ martial arts could definitely help.

Not if you're confronted to an equally skilled bigger guy. (unless you sincerely believe that for instance...Mayweather would easily dismantle one of the Klitschkos)
(there's a good reason why we have different weight divisions)

I don't even think a guy like Pac or mayweather or Cotto would do anything special to a lesser skilled big guy , such as Valuev. (reaching his head would already be a bit problmetatic ) maybe beating him by decision would be possible. (but without hurting him at all , just by outpointing him).

On the other hand , if we take the valuev ex , and translate it to mma , it's possible to do a lot more.
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[boxingcar]

4. You cannot grapple somebody when you cannot get to them. If somebody is taller than you, or even quicker than you, and they know how to box...No way do you get to grab them without taking major punishment (punches to the face). While your running in, and I hit you with 2 punches it's going to hurt a lot worse.

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[Only registered and activated users can see links]

manhoef
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[boxingcar]

5. Just because somebody boxes, and you wrestle does not mean your actually going to beat the man in wrestling or be more powerful. I box, but I've also wrestled people who seemed good, and have done it for many years, and STILL beat them because of physichal strength. I seen a big boxer, and a big wrestler get in to it one time, and the wrestler latched on, the boxer ducked forward, and THREW the wrestler over his back!

Anecdotal stories are worthless. ( as legit , consistent , empirical proofs.)



Having said that , the same sometimes happens in mma.
(wrestler vs striker)...Wrestler is dominated.
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GSP does that too. ( often dominates everybody on the ground even when confronted to top wrestlers )

[boxingcar]

I bet nobody puts me in a submission that I can't get out of without getting: bitten, eye torn out, balls crushed, or whatever else I can think of.

Very possible. But again , you're also forgetting that there are certain submissions in which you can't do any of that. You won't be able to bite or crush your opponent's balls or attack his eyes in situations like these for ex:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Also , don't forget , being confronted to situations like these (in real life) , and typing about it while you're sitting comfortably behind your keyboard is very different.

Have you ever wondered why some (professional fighters) have incredibily stupid gameplans ? why their training doesn't translate well inside the ring when confronted to a real opponent ? Or why "upsets" happen from time to time ? ( Tyson losing to Douglas , Lennox losing to Rahman , GSP losing to Serra etc... )

We , as spectators , can easily judge other's mistakes , we can arrogantly say things:
"this wouldn't happen to me"
or
"i would've done that instead of this"...

Being a top sniper in a video game such "call of duty" online is different from doing it in real life , in a real war.
Many different emotions are involved...stress , panic etc..

[MattMattMatt]

Pretty much perfect post which sensibly argues your point.

[ufoalf]

Pretty much useless post because it's not going to get across. People like him will always back up any videos or arguments you put there with "Well, in those videos it was MMA strikers and not Klitchko or Mayweather, it was just some unknown Manhoef and Silva...".

[cross_trainer]

Good arguments, boxingcar, but in those videos it was MMA strikers and not Klitchko or Mayweather, it was just some unknown Manhoef and Silva.

[boxingcar]

Good arguments, boxingcar, but in those videos it was MMA strikers and not Klitchko or Mayweather, it was just some unknown Manhoef and Silva.

Absolutely.

My points are still valid though.

Mayweather vs Valuev would be quite boring. Mayweather would probably win by boring UD. In mma however , even when you're confronted to a huge guy , you've got more options on your side. You're not forced to deal with his size or reach.

(see Fedor vs Schilt).

[boxingcar]

Pretty much useless post because it's not going to get across. People like him will always back up any videos or arguments you put there with "Well, in those videos it was MMA strikers and not Klitchko or Mayweather, it was just some unknown Manhoef and Silva...".

Yeah , but i couldn't help myself..I just had to respond back.

[cross_trainer]

Absolutely.

My points are still valid though.

Mayweather vs Valuev would be quite boring. Mayweather would probably win by boring UD. In mma however , even when you're confronted to a huge guy , you've got more options on your side. You're not forced to deal with his size or reach.

(see Fedor vs Schilt).

Yeah, but in those videos it was MMA strikers and not Klitchko or Mayweather, it was just some unknown Manhoef and Silva.

And...er...

Boxing's better.

And...

...Um...

...in those videos it was MMA strikers and not Klitchko or Mayweather, it was just some unknown Manhoef and Silva

[cross_trainer]

Actually (to be serious for a minute) I think that MMA is still somewhat behind boxing in the length and breadth of its talent pool. People have been staging Vale Tudo competitions at a worldwide level for a fairly short amount of time--not much more than a decade. It has lots of COMPETITORS, but that isn't quite the same thing as specialized athletes.

10-15 years is simply not enough time to develop the skillset AND infrastructure to create well-rounded fighters who are their sport's equivalent of Ali. And yes, that includes Fedor--though at least Fedor can argue that his background in combat sambo prepared him reasonably well. To use a boxing analogy, he's more like Sullivan than Tyson--right down to the lineage wars against Dana White (who reminds me a bit of R.K. Fox, now that I think of it).

It says something that MMA fighters still rely so heavily upon Muay Thai, BJJ, wrestling, and boxing coaches when all of those sports have less-than-perfect carryover into MMA. You don't see this in most other sports--including other combat sports.

I expect MMA to become comparable to boxing when the St. Pierres and Silvas of the world have been retired for 10-15 years and operate gyms of their own...and long after Fedor has met his Corbett. By then, there will probably be some standardization in training methods and techniques as the simplest, most efficient curriculum is agreed upon.




....That being said, current top MMA guys would still destroy top boxers in the octagon, and probably in a street fight under most conditions.

[ufoalf]

No grappler would ever be able to take down the likes of Klitchko or Mayweather because they'd get rocked coming in. The videos you showed are very terrible boxers and couldn't carry Klitchkos jockstrap. If it was him in there against those grapplers they would've been KOed in seconds.
Just watch Sylvia vs Mercer. I mean common. MMA fighters have no chins. MMA fighters are people who couldn't make it in boxing.
Show me any top level boxers in MMA ring that got put on his ass? You keep showing me journey man and such. Old never even has been Mercer went into the cage and KOed former UFC champ in 9 sec :lol:.

[boxingcar]

No grappler would ever be able to take down the likes of Klitchko or Mayweather because they'd get rocked coming in

it's quite a bold claim. By saying "no grappler" , i'm presuming that you're dumping every grapplers in the same basket. You do know , as well as i do , that in real life , Mayweather would've gotten litteraly murdered by a guy such as this right ?
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

And if you're only talking about grapplers who are about the same size as Mayweather , then don't say "no grappler". You know that it's an exaggeration.

Now , let's be more resonable. Let's take someone smaller. Mayweather's next fight is gonna be at a catchweight of 144 lbs.
Sean Sherk = 155 lbs
Aoki = 154 lbs
Bowles = 136 lbs

I can't think of anyone smaller right now. But let's pretend that Sherk was also fighting at 144 lbs. So "no grappler" would ever be able to take down the likes of klitschko or mayweather because "THEY'D GET ROCKED COMING IN".


Fair enough , let's start with Mayweather's case.
Mayweather has a 64.1 % KO ratio.
From 1996 to 2007. He's only been capable to KO 4 opponents.

Out of these 4 KOs , he's only been able to finish Kino Rodriguez in the 1RST Round.
It then took him 6 full rounds to KO Felipe Garcia
2 rounds to KO Sam Girard
and 9 rounds to KO ****** Juuko.

In other words , Floy Mayweather. Who never fought against a wrestler , Never fought under mma rules. Who doesn't have the KO power to finish his opponents with a single impact in a matter of seconds in his own sport , would suddenly become a KO machine , and he'd be capable to avoid any takedown attempts imaginable.

That's what he'd need to do , in order to avoid getting on his back.


it's just way too far fetched.
Why ? Let's take Hatton vs Mayweather as an example.
Round 1
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
at 0:02 Mayweather is ALREADY in the clinch.
at 0:05 The ref separates them.

In mma , here's what happens...
At 0:02 Mayweather is in the clinch.
At 0:05 he's taken down or is receiving knees to the chest and the Ref doesn't separate the fighters.

[boxingcar]

at 00:09
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CLINCH.
00:12 TAKEDOWN.

But let's just say that it's not a fair example because:

" that's not Klitschko. And Klitschko never would be taken down"

To this , i'll answer:
- It would be statistically improbable...Impossible for them to KO every single one of their opponents in a matter of seconds.

Let's say Vitali or Wladimir both have an average of 10 or 15 fights under mma rules.
this:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
Would be statistically impossible to repeat 3 or 5 or 10 times in their mma career. (unless all their fights are fixed)

It is for this very reason , that both Mayweather or the Klitschkos would be forced to hit the canvas at one point or another.

They'd either get smashed into oblivion or submitted , or even more frustrating...their opponent would simply "lay and pray" , and win a boring decision.

[boxingcar]

Just watch Sylvia vs Mercer. I mean common. MMA fighters have no chins.

Sylvia = "mma fighters" ? Is Sylvia an mma deity ? Is he omnipotent ?
I'm just asking because you say:
" just watch Sylvia "

and you then jump to the conclusion "mma fighters have no chins". That's a pretty big leap...

[boxingcar]

MMA fighters are people who couldn't make it in boxing.

Better yet , 90% of them never even bothered to be boxers in the first place. You're pointing something obvious.

Most already used to have different careers before starting in mma.
(Lindland = olympic Silver medal in greco)
(Nastula = olympic gold medal in Judo)
(Werdum = ADCC champion)
(Fedor = Sambo champion)

Disciplines , which are ideal for a sport such as mma because it allows them to use what they know best. Under boxing rules , these disciplines are useless.

[boxingcar]

Old never even has been Mercer went into the cage and KOed former UFC champ in 9 sec :lol:.


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And Kimbo isn't ranked now. Wasn't ranked back then.

Sylvia vs Mercer was supposed to be under boxing rules. But since they wouldn't allow it. the fight took place under mma rules but Sylvia still wanted to outbox Mercer that was his original intention. In his own words:
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(btw this vid is hilarious haha )

Sylvia could've opted for a simple takedown , he could've simply avoid any striking confrontation and shoot for mercer's legs. But he didn't. And he paid for it.

That's the whole irony. You don't need a champion to do what Kimbo did. You might as well hire an mma can do get the job done. All you have to do is go for a takedown. But Sylvia's stupidity isn't universal in the sport of mma.

[ufoalf]

I don't care what weight, as long as it's in decent range. Those guys in the videos aren't Klitchko nor Mayweather. They don't have good foot movement and not fluid or accurate enough to land like high level boxers would. Reason Mayweather is winning not via KO is because he's facing BOXERs with GOOD chins and not boxing-REJECTS who would never make in boxing to earn a living.
With small gloves Mayweather will drop all Sherks and others on the same night if he could make as much money as he does in boxing.

You can't bring in statistics while there has never been a high level boxer in the cage. And old washed up Mercer KOed former UFC champion in 9 seconds, you can find it on on youtube, just look it up dude. That's the only real statistic that could possibly fit.

In the cage with Klitchko there will be no laying and praying cause they will be layed out way before.

Too bad UFC pays their fighters in food stamps otherwise you'd now the truth.

[ufoalf]

Mercer vs Kimbo cannot possibly count in anyones book. It was Mercer's first mma fight and it was an exhibition match, Mercer ate burger before the fight on top of that he is old and washed up boxer though used to be a contender.

So all it takes to KO a former UFC champ in NINE SECONDS is an old-washed-up-contender in boxing. :lol: :lol::lol: Imagine what Klitchko would do in the UFC :lol:

[boxingcar]

I don't care what weight, as long as it's in decent range. Those guys in the videos aren't Klitchko nor Mayweather. They don't have good foot movement and not fluid or accurate enough to land like high level boxers would.

Klitschko nor mayweather have the high level of wrestling , take down defense or bjj needed to keep the fight standing.

With small gloves Mayweather will drop all Sherks and others on the same night if he could make as much money as he does in boxing.

It's a statistical improbability. (as for your "money" argument , it's nothing more than a logical fallacy )

You can't bring in statistics

Statistics give us approximate expectations on a fighter's forte & weaknesses. They may not be as reliable as Peer-Reviewed Scientific Journals , but they're reliable enough to show us what to expect from a fighter.

while there has never been a high level boxer in the cage.

True , But that's irrelevant because the fact remains. Mayweather KOed a total of 4 opponents from 1996 to 2007. But to be honest , it's not all important. Because Wladimir's 16 KOs (from 1996 to 2009) , still does not reverses the odds.

At best , both Klitchkos & Mayweather have a 50/50 chance beating cans under mma rules.

(cans , who still have more than a neuron left in their brain , & who'll take these strikers on the ground instead of challenging them at their own game. Like Sylvia tried to do). If Pride doesn't get in the way , these top boxers would have a puncher's chance at best.

Many fighters do make poor decisions though. (Griffin , trying to stand vs Anderson , Kongo , trying to take down Velasquez )

[boxingcar]

And old washed up Mercer KOed former UFC champion in 9 seconds, you can find it on on youtube, just look it up dude. That's the only real statistic that could possibly fit.

Because you're a reality denialist. Therefore , you'll filter facts , and only accept one side of the argument. You have your logic. Confirmation Bias ftw.

Once you'll understand & accept that it is statistically highly improbable to KO a series of 5 or 10..or 20 , 30 opponents in a row (without a single clinch , and in a matter of seconds). You'll realise that the "mercer vs sylvia" argument isn't enough to nullify variables of non-fixed fights.

Mercer vs Sylvia showed us an old Mercer vs a 310 lbs heavy Sylvia who had the intention to box Mercer no matter the rules. Sylvia isn't a boxer & he paid for his blind arrogance.

[boxingcar]

In the cage with Klitchko there will be no laying and praying cause they will be layed out way before.

You are asserting this. But this is wishful thinking , not empirical evidence. In order for this absurd scenario to work , Klitschko would have to repeat 1rst Round KOs without a single clinch.

The odds of this happening would be as thin as repeating the same number at the roulette 5 to 10 times in a row. In other words. Not likely.


Too bad UFC pays their fighters in food stamps otherwise you'd now the truth.
Truth ? Like your latent man crush for Klitschko ?
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[boxingcar]

Mercer vs Kimbo cannot possibly count in anyones book. It was Mercer's first mma fight and it was an exhibition match, Mercer ate burger before the fight on top of that he is old and washed up boxer though used to be a contender.

Obviously not , because it kills the validity of Mercer vs Sylvia. You're quick to mention that Mercer:

"ate burger before the fight" ,

but you conveniently forget to precise that Sylvia weighted + 310 lbs for his fight against mercer.

You are also quick to mention that it was:
"Mercer's first mma fight"

But you also conveniently forget to mention that it was the same case for Kimbo Ferguson.

Mercer vs Kimbo took place at " Cage Fury Fighting Championships 5 ".
That event happened on Saturday, June 23, 2007

After that , he had his first fight in EliteXC-Renegade against Bo Cantrell
that took place on november 10, 2007.

That aside , both Kimbo vs Mercer or Kimbo vs Sylvia still can't change mathematical probabilities of variables.

[ufoalf]

Rinse and repeat. My response will be exactly the same as my last two posts.

We haven't seen high level boxers in a cage, and the only one who has Mercer destroyed Sylvia in 9 seconds. Prove me wrong. Show me evidence. Statistically/probability speaking Klitchko beats Mercer 100/100 fights today. Mercer > Sylvia. Therefore Klitchko beats Sylvia in fraction of that. Can't beat that statistic because it can be backed up by video records. And not your imaginary probability.

[sitiyzal]

Why was Erikson vs Skelton posted :lol:?

[boxingcar]

Rinse and repeat. My response will be exactly the same as my last two posts..

Well , yes... I know. You have no valid arguments and you know that you're wrong (unless this is just intellectual hypocrisy on your part). I spotted logical fallacies in your previous responses , so you're obviously and preditcably gonna repeat yourself by saying:

We haven't seen high level boxers in a cage, and the only one who has Mercer destroyed Sylvia in 9 seconds. Prove me wrong. Show me evidence.

I don't remember ever denying or ignoring that , yet you keep bringing that up (as if it was enough to somehow prove Mayweather & Klitschko would repeat the exact same outcome 10 times outta 10.)

Like i said in my other response , you're a reality denialist.

It is mathematically highly improbable for any human being (fighter in this case) , to repeat the exact same performance 3 or 5 or 10 times in a row , by way of knockout , without a single clinch , under 9 seconds.

[boxingcar]

Statistically/probability speaking Klitchko beats Mercer 100/100 fights today

There's no such thing as absolute certainties in fighting. But i guess i'll agree on the fact that it is highly improbable for Mercer to beat any of the Klitschkos at this point in time , especially under boxing rules.

Mercer > Sylvia. Therefore Klitchko beats Sylvia in fraction of that.

Nop. By your logic , Kimbo > Mercer. Therefore Kimbo beats the klitchkos. But that logic doesn't follow. & yet you're doing the same only by using Mercer > Sylvia.

Can't beat that statistic because it can be backed up by video records.

A statistic is a quantity that is calculated from a sample of data. (a probability distribution for the values of a sample statistic).
I still maintain that your argument is flawed.

[boxingcar]

And not your imaginary probability.

More like your imaginary and "wishful thinking scenario".

There's nothing imaginary about statistics & probabilities.

And if you think the contrary , do the experience yourself , go to your nearest casino , (or simply play an online roulette game) keep betting the same number over & over again & see what happens.

Believing that either Mayweather or Klitschko would always be capable to KO anyone:
- under 9 seconds
- in the 1rst round
- While Keeping the fight standing
- & avoiding the clinch.

Is statistically highly improbable. It actually has yet to be proven in any combat sport.
The closest example that comes to mind is:

Aleksander Emelianenko vs Thompson (1rst round KO in 0:11 seconds) - 10/31/2004
Aleksander Emelianenko vs Morais (1rst round KO in 0:15 seconds) - 4/3/2005
Aleksander Emelianenko vs Rooze (1rst round TKO in 0:28 seconds) - 10/9/2005

& even that isn't anywhere near what we're looking for.

[boxingcar]

Do you actually realise how unlikely it is ? Let's give Klitschko 10 opponents.

Let's say he decides to jump into the mma scene.
Are you telling me that the following would occur ?


Klitschko vs Velasquez (1rst round KO 0:09 seconds) - 2/2/2010
Klitschko vs Lesnar (1rst round KO 0:09 seconds) - 4/10/2010
Klitschko vs Sylvia (1rst round KO 0:09 seconds) - 8/11/2010
Klitschko vs Carwin (1rst round KO 0:09 seconds) - 12/05/2010
Klitschko vs Fedor (1rst round KO 0:09 seconds) - 5/12/2011
Klitschko vs Nogueira (1rst round KO 0:09 seconds) - 9/10/2011
Klitschko vs Junior Silva (1rst round KO 0:09 seconds) - 12/12/2011
Klitschko vs Monson (1rst round KO 0:09 seconds) - 4/10/2012
Klitschko vs Randleman (1rst round KO 0:09 seconds) - 8/05/2012
Klitschko vs Barnett (1rst round KO 0:09 seconds) - 12/07/2012

All because of what ?

Because old Mercer koed a 310lbs Sylvia in the 1rst by KO in 0:09 seconds ?

I think you're intellectually dishonnest.

[MattMattMatt]

Rinse and repeat. My response will be exactly the same as my last two posts.

We haven't seen high level boxers in a cage, and the only one who has Mercer destroyed Sylvia in 9 seconds. Prove me wrong. Show me evidence. Statistically/probability speaking Klitchko beats Mercer 100/100 fights today. Mercer > Sylvia. Therefore Klitchko beats Sylvia in fraction of that. Can't beat that statistic because it can be backed up by video records. And not your imaginary probability.

This is very poor logic.

Prove you wrong? Mercer was taken to the ground and tapped out against a zero fight novice, what do you expect to happen against an actually talented, well trained opponent with a good game plan? Mercer to win by KO in 9 seconds? There is zero logic in that and if you cannot fathom that then this discussion has to end here as there is no point in dealing with those who function outside the realms of reality.

Evidence? See youtube video of above fight.

Statistically/probability speaking Klitchko beats Mercer 100/100 fights today
So what? That's boxing, we are talking about MMA. Being at the top of a different sport that has zero training for takedowns will never drastically increase your takedown defence. I severly doubt that Mercer would have suddenly been able to avoid being wrestled to the ground by a fair number of his opponents even if he was in his 'prime'.

Mercer > Sylvia. Therefore Klitchko beats Sylvia in fraction of that.
Henry Mobio>Badara M'Baye>Harry Senior>Michael Sprott>Danny Williams>Matt Skelton>Jan Norte>Bob Sapp>Petruzelli>Kimbo>Mercer

etc...

Terrible logic. Doesn't work in boxing. Doesn't work in MMA. If you disagree, prove me wrong by applying this faultless logic to the betting world and come back when you are a millionaire.

can't beat that statistic because it can be backed up by video records. And not your imaginary probability.

That is NOT a statistic. A stastic requires a set of data. One occurance has no statistical relevance. Interestingly you seem to be the one applying imaginary probability.:huh Again, see video of Mercer being beaten by a zero fight novice for your so called video evidence.

[ufoalf]

Aren't you guys glad you just wrote a guide for me to copy and paste when I'm talking to a troll?

A lot easier to play a troll, than to type all that up...

[boxingcar]

Aren't you guys glad you just wrote a guide for me to copy and paste when I'm talking to a troll?

A lot easier to play a troll, than to type all that up...
you lazy bastard :D

[MattMattMatt]

Aren't you guys glad you just wrote a guide for me to copy and paste when I'm talking to a troll?

A lot easier to play a troll, than to type all that up...

I did actually wonder for a moment. I started to type a reply claiming that you were just shit stirring...but then the rage welled up inside and I had to construct a proper reply.:lol: Shoulda known better.;)

Gotta say though, impressed with Boxingcar's well constructed replies.:good

[nfc90210]

Originally Posted by Primenal file:///C:/Users/Computer/AppData/Local/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.gif ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
3. Grappling does not work if the size difference is to much. If your a 150 pound man going up against a 250 pd pro linebacker....Unless your freakin delusional you'd know your going to get your ass crushed! This is where boxing/ martial arts could definitely help.
An old video of Gil Castillo, who fought Matt Hughes for the welterweight title at UFC 40, grappling with former NFL player John McLaughlin proves that this isn’t the case.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[ufoalf]

An old video of Gil Castillo, who fought Matt Hughes for the welterweight title at UFC 40, grappling with former NFL player John McLaughlin proves that this isn’t the case.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Why reply dude. The whole Brazillian-Jiu-Jitsu is happening because of Royce beating bigger, more athletic, and more skillful strikers. Grappling skills work A LOT better against a bigger man. No matter who you are, if a bigger guy lands a punch with bareknuckles he will KO you. And you will have much truble hurting him(it will take a while). While in grappling its likely that the person has no idea when gettin set up for finishing submission which they ALL are(in these circumstances) unlike punches. 100lbs of weight difference is NOTHING when you're in rear naked choke. 100lbs of difference (100 lbs vs 200lbs) is deadly if punching(in fact the bigger guy will simply tackle and smother you if he sees you're like a little ninja on feet).

Case closed.

[MattMattMatt]

Why reply dude. The whole Brazillian-Jiu-Jitsu is happening because of Royce beating bigger, more athletic, and more skillful strikers. Grappling skills work A LOT better against a bigger man. No matter who you are, if a bigger guy lands a punch with bareknuckles he will KO you. And you will have much truble hurting him(it will take a while). While in grappling its likely that the person has no idea when gettin set up for finishing submission which they ALL are(in these circumstances) unlike punches. 100lbs of weight difference is NOTHING when you're in rear naked choke. 100lbs of difference (100 lbs vs 200lbs) is deadly if punching(in fact the bigger guy will simply tackle and smother you if he sees you're like a little ninja on feet).

Case closed.

Exactly....but I just want to add another example:lol::

ho2MUZBtAwM

[cross_trainer]

Exactly....but I just want to add another example:lol::

ho2MUZBtAwM

I think that this one is the video I mentioned in another thread.

[MattMattMatt]

I think that this one is the video I mentioned in another thread.

It's a good example of skill v strength.

[yesihavearm2]

Why reply dude. The whole Brazillian-Jiu-Jitsu is happening because of Royce beating bigger, more athletic, and more skillful strikers. Grappling skills work A LOT better against a bigger man. No matter who you are, if a bigger guy lands a punch with bareknuckles he will KO you. And you will have much truble hurting him(it will take a while). While in grappling its likely that the person has no idea when gettin set up for finishing submission which they ALL are(in these circumstances) unlike punches. 100lbs of weight difference is NOTHING when you're in rear naked choke. 100lbs of difference (100 lbs vs 200lbs) is deadly if punching(in fact the bigger guy will simply tackle and smother you if he sees you're like a little ninja on feet).

Case closed.


Haha no its not, anyone reading this thread knows that boxingcar has handed your ass to you.

:rofl

[cross_trainer]

Why reply dude. The whole Brazillian-Jiu-Jitsu is happening because of Royce beating bigger, more athletic, and more skillful strikers. Grappling skills work A LOT better against a bigger man. No matter who you are, if a bigger guy lands a punch with bareknuckles he will KO you. And you will have much truble hurting him(it will take a while). While in grappling its likely that the person has no idea when gettin set up for finishing submission which they ALL are(in these circumstances) unlike punches. 100lbs of weight difference is NOTHING when you're in rear naked choke. 100lbs of difference (100 lbs vs 200lbs) is deadly if punching(in fact the bigger guy will simply tackle and smother you if he sees you're like a little ninja on feet).

Case closed.

I've always thought that it goes like this for a little guy:

Groundwork > Striking > Takedowns & Takedown Defense



In most 19th century boxing manuals (when they allowed above-the-waist grappling and throwing), the little guys were usually competent combination punchers and the manuals advised them to stay FAR away from an inside fight. Even today (as someone on this thread mentioned), it is moderately conceivable that Floyd Mayweather could survive for a little while against Valuev unless Valuev Ruiz'd him.

Notice that the big guy has control of the ONE transitional dimension of the three.

[ufoalf]

I've always thought that it goes like this for a little guy:

Groundwork > Striking > Takedowns & Takedown Defense



In most 19th century boxing manuals (when they allowed above-the-waist grappling and throwing), the little guys were usually competent combination punchers and the manuals advised them to stay FAR away from an inside fight. Even today (as someone on this thread mentioned), it is moderately conceivable that Floyd Mayweather could survive for a little while against Valuev unless Valuev Ruiz'd him.

Notice that the big guy has control of the ONE transitional dimension of the three.

Very well put.

[ufoalf]

Haha no its not, anyone reading this thread knows that boxingcar has handed your ass to you.

:rofl



Which clearly you haven't :lol:

[Monoxide]

Man that Dan Miller guillotine is crazy.....

[Primenal]

LOL, a thread with my name on it. I feel loved! And I didn't even notice it til now.
Anyways, I get your points Boxingcar, and I know what you mean, and agree with plenty of it.
The thing was I wasn't really talking about MMA so much. I was talking about street fighting mostly. The thread was why grappling (mma), something was ineffective. I think, and I said it was effective...Just not in certain scenario's. I think the guy was mainly talking about street fighting though, and applying to real life.
Anyways,
#1...If I'm against 4 guys, and I put one guy in a triangle. Do the math...I got one guy on the ground (i'm there with him) where are his 3 other friends? Kicking me upside the head..If I'm lucky! My plan would be to stay on my feet, strike, and don't let them get me down. I think my odds aren't great, but a lot better than me fooling around on the ground.
#2. I agree with you
#3. You have the best MMA fighter in the world vs the man who's name should simply be *giant chinese guy*... Also Bob Sapp. I'm applying this to normal people. A normal 150 pound man is not going to grab a 250 pd man and slam him to the ground (unless the big guy trips).
#4. Not sure what the point was, but I could find many fights on youtube where a striker messed up a wrestler way before he ever got to them. Of course you could find plenty of fights where the wrestler got in and dominated them, but I doubt many of them are against awesome strikers, and I bet against even somebody decent they took some punishment to get there.
#5. Agreed

I was just saying that people need more than just grappling. If your against multiple opponents, or find yourself against a much bigger/ stronger opponent it's not the wisest thing to take it to the ground. Grappling IS effective, but not that effective in certain situations.

[cross_trainer]

#1...If I'm against 4 guys, and I put one guy in a triangle. Do the math...I got one guy on the ground (i'm there with him) where are his 3 other friends? Kicking me upside the head..If I'm lucky! My plan would be to stay on my feet, strike, and don't let them get me down. I think my odds aren't great, but a lot better than me fooling around on the ground.


I think you're conflating two different versions of grappling here.

Striking

You're up against four guys. You stay on your feet and knock them all out.

Grappling Type #1

You're against four guys. You get a triangle choke on one and the other three beat the crap out of you.

Grappling Type #2

You're against four guys. You stay on your feet and throw each of them headfirst onto the cement floor.

[Primenal]

I think you're conflating two different versions of grappling here.

Striking

You're up against four guys. You stay on your feet and knock them all out.

Grappling Type #1

You're against four guys. You get a triangle choke on one and the other three beat the crap out of you.

Grappling Type #2

You're against four guys. You stay on your feet and throw each of them headfirst onto the cement floor.

The thread originally discussed was about BJJ, and the ground game really. Grappling Type #2 would be like Judo, and that'd work. I'd still go with striking personally, but somebody grabs you, and you throw em that'd work. I remember even when I was training JKD amazingly they had a couple throwing moves. In my trainers cotta he'd have a move where you reach down, grab somebodies balls, and come over. Meaning you grab him, and try to throw him over you (like a powerslam) by the balls! :admin
But yeah I'd agree things like Judo would work.
BTW: I still love that freakin first video that's posted. The boxer who beat up 2 guys. That guy definitely wasted no time. The girl acted like she wasn't even scared LOL

[SouthpawSlayer]

you guys are all retarded

[achillesthegreat]

Why reply dude. The whole Brazillian-Jiu-Jitsu is happening because of Royce beating bigger, more athletic, and more skillful strikers. Grappling skills work A LOT better against a bigger man. No matter who you are, if a bigger guy lands a punch with bareknuckles he will KO you. And you will have much truble hurting him(it will take a while). While in grappling its likely that the person has no idea when gettin set up for finishing submission which they ALL are(in these circumstances) unlike punches. 100lbs of weight difference is NOTHING when you're in rear naked choke. 100lbs of difference (100 lbs vs 200lbs) is deadly if punching(in fact the bigger guy will simply tackle and smother you if he sees you're like a little ninja on feet).

Case closed.

Very true. I was going to say the same thing.

[ufoalf]

The thread originally discussed was about BJJ, and the ground game really. Grappling Type #2 would be like Judo, and that'd work. I'd still go with striking personally, but somebody grabs you, and you throw em that'd work. I remember even when I was training JKD amazingly they had a couple throwing moves. In my trainers cotta he'd have a move where you reach down, grab somebodies balls, and come over. Meaning you grab him, and try to throw him over you (like a powerslam) by the balls! :admin
But yeah I'd agree things like Judo would work.
BTW: I still love that freakin first video that's posted. The boxer who beat up 2 guys. That guy definitely wasted no time. The girl acted like she wasn't even scared LOL

You do realize that every grappling martial art has those throws/or similar takedowns that judo does right? They all have technique to get the person where you want him... It's still grappling. In fact at higher levels of Greco Roman or freestyle probably half the fight happens standing up.
Grappling isn't just rolling on the ground.