Who has the greater legacy: RJJ or Hopkins? [Archive]

kg0208

09-13-2007, 07:13 PM

Against who though ?

Lets not start this, unless you actually plan on naming fighters and what they actually accomplished. Calling them bums, garbage men, etc without actually looking at the fact that they were top 10 ranked fighters and many were champions, former, current, or future at the time is redundant.

klion22

09-13-2007, 07:13 PM

Jones. But here's the thing. A LOT of people are going to remember the KO's most clearly. That has stuck in a lot of guys heads.

One other thing; Hopkins ain't finishe yet. If he gets up to HW like he's been talking about, he could overtake Jones.

Yeah, but getting KOed like that is a part of his legacy is it not? So you have to factor that in with the overall picture.

I personally give it to Hopkins by a nod. And i think he's going to beat Calzaghe if they fight. He's going to win another big fight or two IMO.

McGrain

09-13-2007, 07:13 PM

Against who though ?

Anyone judging by eye, though your (implied) point about the holes in his resume is valid.

kg0208

09-13-2007, 07:14 PM

Yeah, but getting KOed like that is a part of his legacy is it not? So you have to factor that in with the overall picture.

I personally give it to Hopkins by a nod. And i think he's going to beat Calzaghe if they fight. He's going to win another big fight or two IMO.

You have to take into account his loss to Jones and his losses to Taylor as well, along with his draw with a fighter that Jones would have eaten alive.

Prime for prime especially, Jones is the better fighter.

McGrain

09-13-2007, 07:14 PM

Yeah, but getting KOed like that is a part of his legacy is it not? So you have to factor that in with the overall picture.

For sure.

I think a couple of big wins, at his age, could put Hopkins over the top. For now, the HW win puts Jones ahead for me.

Brickhaus

09-13-2007, 07:15 PM

Jones. It's interesting that Hopkins has basically had his prime after the age of 35, but not only did Jones beat the snot out of Hopkins, he was the best fighter in the world for nearly a decade, and a top 3 P4P guy for longer than that! That's insane! There are only a select few who can say they've done anything close to that. Granted, Jones never had a run of quality fights like Hopkins has had in his late career, but spread over the course of time, and basically ignoring the time period after he fell off the cliff (which I tend to do when looking back at past professionals in all sports - why hold the times when they were green or gray against them?), he has the more impressive resume. The fact that Popkins STILL hasn't fallen off that cliff is incredible, but I'm not sure there's anything he could reasonably do at this point to pass Jones, short of beating the Calzaghe/Kessler winner and/or moving up to claim his own heavyweight belt.

klion22

09-13-2007, 07:16 PM

You have to take into account his loss to Jones and his losses to Taylor as well, along with his draw with a fighter that Jones would have eaten alive.

Prime for prime especially, Jones is the better fighter.

On paper, Hopkins might've lost both fights to Taylor but A LOT of people think that he won one or both of them. You could seriously make a great case that Hopkins won both fights. I mean if you think about it, Hopkins landed the much more cleaner and harder shots in both fights. Taylor really did nothing except stay busy.

kg0208

09-13-2007, 07:17 PM

Anyone judging by eye, though your (implied) point about the holes in his resume is valid.

He didn't fight everybody, but he didn't fight nobodies either.

What I find unusual is how the climate has changed. Look at Cotto's resume. People say he has fought some tough unbeaten contenders and top challengers. He gets praised....

Jones did the same all through LHW where he was the smaller man, but gets criticized for it.

Jones is judged on a sliding scale....they compare his talent to his resume, and they aren't comparable. Compared to resumes of his contemporaries, it's perfectly fine.

kg0208

09-13-2007, 07:18 PM

On paper, Hopkins might've lost both fights to Taylor but A LOT of people think that he won one or both of them. You could seriously make a great case that Hopkins won both fights. I mean if you think about it, Hopkins landed the much more cleaner and harder shots in both fights. Taylor really did nothing except stay busy.

Yes, but that is another point. Until Jones was past his prime, he didn't have close fights. Even with other elite fighters and other champions, he left no doubt who won.

I am making a case for Jones. I can just as easily make a case for Hopkins, since they are that close.

kg0208

09-13-2007, 07:20 PM

So , Everyone is a champion nowadays Your trying to tell me his 5 million a fight on free HBO opponents where really any good or known for anything else other then fighting Jones or being old ?

Then that applies to everyone. Not everyone are champions...this is a myth. Certainly champions are not as high of a caliber as they used to be on the whole. They are not however, bums and nobodies.

And Jones opponents during that HBO contract were ranked fighters, not that many were old. Jones only fought old opponents when they had a belt really, and he was trying to unify.

Amsterdam

09-13-2007, 07:23 PM

Jones, and it's not even close by H2H or resume.

Hopkins has become overrated recently, Jones has become severely underrated.

kg0208

09-13-2007, 07:23 PM

Yeah but Hopkins was 40 when he fought Taylor and Jones was barley 34 when he lost . That's not past it ! Tarver had his #

Sorry, but anybody who watches boxing OR boxes will tell you that ring age is different than normal age.

Hopkins took better care of his body. It is not a coincidence that Jones never looked the same after coming down from HW. He doesn't look the same now....not only fighting wise, but BODY wise.

Jones was past his prime....Jones had been slowing down for a while, this just accelerated it.

Amsterdam

09-13-2007, 07:26 PM

Hey KG,

Would you consider competing in our 'predictions league'? It's not too late to join, but in a few more weeks it will be.

kg0208

09-13-2007, 07:27 PM

Your right . His opponents where all ranked but none of them where that great . Hopkins opponents where the same more or less until Taylor and Tarver . I think what Hopkins did to Tarver puts him over the top . Especilly after what Tarver did to Jones . Jones doesn't have anything like that . His best wins where in the early 90's :good

Actually he does. Lets be honest here. I am not a Tarver fan, but he didn't look the same after losing that weight from the movie. But even if it was the best version of Tarver.....Jones beat a HW. That trumps a win over Tarver.

And Jones beat Tarver as well....regardless of what some think, it was a win in the books and a majority on this site especially felt Jones won the fight. Hopkins didn't fight Tarver 3 times...and remember, Tarver has never lost a rematch (thought Hopkins would beat him again I think).

I don't think the Tarver win is bigger than the Ruiz win.

kg0208

09-13-2007, 07:28 PM

No I disagree . The weight effected him in the first fight but not in the second . It doesn't work like that . Losing weight fast doesn't just ruin you for life . Give me a break . You think the human body is that fragile ? That knockout is what ended him .

Well we will agree to disagree. I think that the weight combined with his age caused his decline. And his body didn't look the same in the 2nd fight as it did when he was originally at LHW.

But you have your opinion and I have mine, and thats cool by me. Hopkins is an excellent fighter.

kg0208

09-13-2007, 07:29 PM

Hey KG,

Would you consider competing in our 'predictions league'? It's not too late to join, but in a few more weeks it will be.
How do you join? Is it on the board and I just missed it?

Amsterdam

09-13-2007, 07:31 PM

How do you join? Is it on the board and I just missed it?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Just post your predictions for the selection of fights each week, this is the current week.

If you haven't seen any of these guys, then just make a prediction using 'judging record' skills, it's fun to see who can get what right. This week is slow, so there is only a poor selection, but all serious fights are always added, as well as FNF fights.

If you'd like to see the scoring system, I will send that also.

kg0208

09-13-2007, 07:36 PM

Well Toney beat like 5 heavyweights ! Does that make his resume better then both of them ?

Toney also lost to Jones, won fewer titles and wasn't ever really a MW. He himself said he could have fought at CW from the get go. Toney had a very mediocre run in his prime too.....disappeared with no title for 7 years.

Toney was a better HW than Jones, but not a better fighter.

But we are comparing Jones and Hopkins. And Jones beat a HW titlist and I don't feel you can erase that. Hopkins beat Tarver but so did Jones.

Like I said, agree to disagree.

kg0208

09-13-2007, 07:37 PM

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Just post your predictions for the selection of fights each week, this is the current week.

If you haven't seen any of these guys, then just make a prediction using 'judging record' skills, it's fun to see who can get what right. This week is slow, so there is only a poor selection, but all serious fights are always added, as well as FNF fights.

If you'd like to see the scoring system, I will send that also.

Socring system would be cool....thanks Amsterdam.

kg0208

09-13-2007, 07:41 PM

Come on :roll:

Not going to argue a fact. If you don't believe Jones won....so be it. I do, and so did the judges.

Primes don't end a specific age. Archie Moore fought competitively longer than many fighters that are greater than himself.

Amsterdam

09-13-2007, 07:49 PM

Socring system would be cool....thanks Amsterdam.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Original week with the scoring system. The scoring system allows for anyone who enters within the first month to stay in the game and get to the top competition after a month or so if you keep a solid basis.

I only pick 1 or 2 easy ones a week, so it's up for grabs and will run until the end of the year, when we crown the champ, runner up and third place 'picker'.

Hope to get more guys involved...

kg0208

09-13-2007, 07:50 PM

No , I think Jones won the first fight in the last 2 rounds . I was giving you the eye roll because the wins were hardly the same . Plus I was taking into account the last 2 fights . Tarver owns Roy :good Hopkins owns Tarver !
The wins are hardly the same, but Jones was clearly not the same fighter where as Hopkins has aged much better. That is apparent to anyone. Not just because of the Tarver loss, but also the Johnson loss.

Like I said, in his prime, Jones never had close fights, not against contenders, elites, or champions and even ATG. That has to be taken into account as well. Hopkins dominated Tarver....Jones dominated Ruiz, who was much much larger than Jones. (Toney wasn't much smaller than Ruiz when they fought right?)

kg0208

09-13-2007, 08:00 PM

That's true but Hopkins has been way more consistent and the 2 knockouts also have to be taken in to consideration when where talking about the whole career ! Also Hopkins is the smaller man . Say what you want about his height but anyone that can weigh in at 157-159 until there 40 is a natural middleweight . Jones probably couldn't make 160 past his 26 birthday :goodBesides Hopkins has also been way past it for a while but he still wins ! I would even say he was slightly past it in the Trinidad fight if you wanna compare that to the Johnson fight !
No way, you will convince no one that Hopkins is smaller than Jones. Hopkins was always a big MW and when he was at LHW, he was bigger than Jones was there too. Training a certain way kept Hopkins at that weight class. Jones had to train to get bigger, and was always smaller than the LHW he fought.

And Hopkins wasn't more consistant. You keep talking about Jones losses....Hopkins has more losses to Jones, including one to Jones.

duran77

09-13-2007, 08:01 PM

the losses are what hurts jones, the title defenses is what helps hopkins

kg0208

09-13-2007, 08:08 PM

Hopkins is way skinnier then Jones . Always has been . Hopkins has more losses but his only real loss was to Jones ! Jones lost bad in his fights :good

No such thing as real losses. He wasn't robbed and lost close fights.

Hopkins trained to be skinnier than Jones. Jones trained to move up in weight.

Hopkins was bigger at LHW than Jones was at LHW.

Start a thread on who the larger fighter is out of the two.

kg0208

09-13-2007, 08:14 PM

He was robbed in many people's eyes and yes there is a degree of losses . Your trying to tell me Hopkins loss in Taylor 1 was the same as Jones loss in Tarver 2 ? I don't have to start a thread I know Jones couldn't make middleweight at 30 no matter how he trained . Just like Hagler could never make 147 but Hearns could . Most people would say Hearns was bigger !

Thats because Jones had trained to move up. Hopkins couldn't make MW now without hurting himself like Jones did coming down from HW because he has now trained to be a LHW.

Yes their are different degrees of losses. There are different degrees of wins too...and Jones takes him there.

JAM Killer

09-13-2007, 08:15 PM

Hopkins has the better legacy, even though he was beaten by Jones. Hopkins was middleweight champ for 10 years, then he became the light heavyweight linear champ at 41.

But don't get me wrong, it is a very close call.

kg0208

09-13-2007, 08:31 PM

Yeah but he's 43 now . I think Hopkins wins are better then Jones ! Hopkins beat and fought more really good fighters even if they were in a smaller division ! So was Hopkins ! And your wrong about the weight thing . Example . Taylor can not continue to make 160 into his mid 30's no matter what . Same with Jones :good

Taylor is draining to make 160. Jones never was. He would come in about 5-7lbs over the weight, not 13 like Taylor.

And Hopkins beat Trinidad and DLH isn't any better than Jones beat Hopkins and Toney.

Amsterdam

09-13-2007, 08:34 PM

Taylor is draining to make 160. Jones never was. He would come in about 5-7lbs over the weight, not 13 like Taylor.

And Hopkins beat Trinidad and DLH isn't any better than Jones beat Hopkins and Toney.

Trinidad and DLH at 160 are not even remotely comparable to Hopkins and Toney, especially DLH at 160.

In fact, Hopkins and Toney are cemented ATG's, DLH and Trinidad are smaller 'marginal' greats.

Toopretty

09-13-2007, 08:39 PM

Roy no damned doubt...Hopkins never got stopped but Roy did more big things at more weights. Hopkins best win was a blown up tito...thats pretty much it..and Tarver..the rest he was supposed to win.

kg0208

09-13-2007, 08:46 PM

Regardless , Hopkins has the thinner frame and is naturally lighter . Your right about Jones 2 biggest wins being more impressive but Hopkins also has Tarver and Johnson who KO'd Jones and Wright and most people would even say Taylor ! And again Hopkins has never been KO'd which is the worst thing that can happen to you in boxing !

On another note , Hopkins weighed in at 178 in his first fight (prison weight if you know what that is ) and then got down to 157 and it didn't ruin his career ! So much for your "Jones losing weight ruined his career theory"
Wrong. Hopkins first fight he weight 173...a year and a 1/2 later he fought at 166.....he didn't get down to the 160 weight class until a few months later. In case you didn't notice, he took 4 fights in a 3 month span dropping weight each time till he reached the 160 weight class.

That is NOT comparable to what Jones did.

Hopkins has Tarver and Johnson....Jones has Hill, Woods, Gonzalez, Tarver, etc. Jones has a better resume overall IMO.

You can argue Hopkins being smaller than Jones all you want, but I am not going to buy it.

Fighting Weight

09-13-2007, 08:47 PM

Regardless , Hopkins has the thinner frame and is naturally lighter . Your right about Jones 2 biggest wins being more impressive but Hopkins also has Tarver and Johnson who KO'd Jones and Wright and most people would even say Taylor ! And again Hopkins has never been KO'd which is the worst thing that can happen to you in boxing !

On another note , Hopkins weighed in at 178 in his first fight (prison weight if you know what that is ) and then got down to 157 and it didn't ruin his career ! So much for your "Jones losing weight ruined his career theory"

What a moron :patsch

Hopkins got humilitated by Jones when Jones was fighting with ONE HAND. Is that not more humiliating than getting knocked out by a guy while fighting at a higher weight class than the one you were born to fight in? Jones was the first man in over 100 years to move from 160 to heavy and win the title, Hopkins has done what, exactly? He wasn't even undisputed 160 champ until he was fucking 37 :lol: :lol: :lol:

Don't get me wrong I'm a Hopkins fan, but if you put B-Hop and Jones in a boxing ring 10 times, then there would be only one winner 10 times and that's Roy Jones. He'd clown Hopkins even now.

kg0208

09-13-2007, 08:52 PM

snoop

09-13-2007, 08:52 PM

In my eyes in this sport you could achieve alot in your prime but your only as good as your last fight.And you also have to take in affect who had better opp through out there careers(prime and towards the end) and who looked worse in defeat.At the end of all that you have to diside between a 4 division champ that beat Hopkins or a 2 division champ that whooped Tarver, that had 21 tittle diffences, and is clearly the better fighter now. My choice is hopkins by a very small margin.

kg0208

09-13-2007, 08:54 PM

Don't be a fucking baby :good

Don't be a fucking baby? For telling you "good for you" and agreeing to disagree like I said we should pages ago?

Wow....you're acting like the child not me.

kg0208

09-13-2007, 09:02 PM

It was good for you then :good I can smell the smugness from over here !
Hey, whatever floats your boat. You want to be an ass after a cordial debate, so be it. That's your problem, not mine. :good

Mind Reader

09-13-2007, 09:28 PM

Yeah but Hopkins was 40 when he fought Taylor and Jones was barley 34 when he lost . That's not past it ! Tarver had his #

For one fighters age diffently.... For two in another post you discredited Roy's great win against Virgill Hill beacause you said Hill was "way past it by then" Hill was 34...... This is the third time ive asked you to explain your double standard.:patsch

VIP

09-13-2007, 09:29 PM

Hopkins has done a lot late in his career to enhance his legacy while Jones has diminished. Close call. Jones slightly.

Mind Reader

09-13-2007, 09:36 PM

I voted for Jones, I say he is still ahead of Hopkins, not by that much though. I do think prime Jones destroys any version of Hopkins though.

kg0208

09-13-2007, 09:40 PM

Jones career sucks ! He's been KTFO to many times . Bottom line :good
:lol::lol::lol:

Hill defended the LHW title 19 times throughout his career and is a 2 division champion. He was a great fighter and a future HoF.

Mind Reader

09-13-2007, 09:40 PM

You cock . I knew as soon as I took my avatar down you would come on hear ball sucking Jones . You know what . I thought that Hill was older then that . Still Jones only fought him after a loss and he wasn't that great anyways . In fact who the hell did Hill ever beat ? I know he lost to Hearns right ? Anyways . Leave me alone , You talk about Jones like he's your god damn husband ! How come I never see you post anything about any other fighters ?

Im ball sucking Jones because I disagree with your rediculous statements?? It was you that started this not me. Well atleast I got you to admit that a fighter can be 34 and be past it. Do you think Oscar is in his prime?

Mind Reader

09-13-2007, 09:42 PM

Jones career sucks ! He's been KTFO to many times . Bottom line :good

Wow!!:nut

kg0208

09-13-2007, 09:46 PM

Speaking of double standards , According to you Jones was a shot , 87 year old fighter when he was 34 ! Well same goes for Hill !

Hill went on to win another title after losing to Jones. He has not aged the same and doesn't move up and down weight.

Carlos Primera

09-13-2007, 09:48 PM

hopkins edges rjj.

going by resumes:

hopkins: record of MW title defenses, linear champ at 175 and better longetivity. best wins include trinidad, DLH, Winky, Eastman, echols, joppy, glen johnson, tarver. (hopkins can possibly still add to this)

Rjj: held titles at 160,168,175 and hvy weight. best wins include Hopkins, Toney, Ruiz, Griffin, Woods, Harmon, Harding, Gonzales, and Hill.

Mind Reader

09-13-2007, 09:49 PM

Speaking of double standards , According to you Jones was a shot , 87 year old fighter when he was 34 ! Well same goes for Hill !

Took you that long to come up with that?? Hill won a title at Cruiserweight after Jones beat him.

kg0208

09-13-2007, 09:50 PM

Mind Reader

09-13-2007, 09:54 PM

Speaking of double standards , According to you Jones was a shot , 87 year old fighter when he was 34 ! Well same goes for Hill !

Im never the one that said a fighter couldn't possibly be past it beacuase he is only 34. You did... and seemed to not know what you were even talking about when you were talking about Hill. Fighters age differently period!

Carlos Primera

09-13-2007, 09:54 PM

I voted for Jones, I say he is still ahead of Hopkins, not by that much though. I do think prime Jones destroys any version of Hopkins though.

come on man, even in their fight rjj was hardly 'destroying' hopkins. hopkins won some rounds as well, and most people thought rjj would just KO the relative unknown. also where does this bs about him beating hopkins with one hand come from? oh, rjj said it so it must be true. he also said he threw the third tarver fight, cause he did'nt want his dad to get any credit. rjj could be the president of his own fanclub, and anything he says should'nt be taken seriously.

kg0208

09-13-2007, 09:56 PM

come on man, even in their fight rjj was hardly 'destroying' hopkins. hopkins won some rounds as well, and most people thought rjj would just KO the relative unknown. also where does this bs about him beating hopkins with one hand come from? oh, rjj said it so it must be true. he also said he threw the third tarver fight, cause he did'nt want his dad to get any credit. rjj could be the president of his own fanclub, and anything he says should'nt be taken seriously.

Actually, it was mentioned during the fight that Jones had hurt his hand. One of the commentators commented on it. I am fairly sure of this.

The line about his dad was just plain silly though.

Carlos Primera

09-13-2007, 09:56 PM

Hopkins is not the Lineal Champ. Erdai is....

Jones never was either cuz DM was when he got it from Hill, who became lineal when he beat Maske.

ok point taken, but in paper rjj was still the recognized champ at 175.

kg0208

09-13-2007, 09:57 PM

ok point taken, but in paper rjj was still the recognized champ at 175.

Yah, I think he was champ too. But DM was a beast and they should have fought.

kg0208

09-13-2007, 09:58 PM

Jones won a title at light heavyweight after Tarver and Johnson KO'd him ! I guess that means he was never shot then !

They aren't comparable titles. Hill won the WBA title, not the IBC....unless you think that ANY title will do. In which case I can add about 5 more champions to Jones ledger...

Carlos Primera

09-13-2007, 10:00 PM

Yah, I think he was champ too. But DM was a beast and they should have fought.
yeah i felt rjj could have really pushed for that fight hard if he wanted to, with hbo backing that could have been arranged. that would have made his resume greater. though he did beat gonzales who beat DM.

kg0208

09-13-2007, 10:06 PM

Yeah Gonzales beat him after him and Jones fought . If Gonzales beat him before the Jones fight Jones would've never fought him :good

Hall nearly beat DM and Jones fought him. He fought Griffin after he beat Toney. This is a false statement.

kg0208

09-13-2007, 10:08 PM

Try WBO :good
Look again....Jones won the WBO NABO LHW title. They are not the same thing. Erdai is the WBO champion and the Lineal champion.

kg0208

09-13-2007, 10:09 PM

yeah i felt rjj could have really pushed for that fight hard if he wanted to, with hbo backing that could have been arranged. that would have made his resume greater. though he did beat gonzales who beat DM.

It would have enhanced both resumes. But some overrate Jones at LHW having him in the top 5 there all time. I however have him right inside the top 10.

kg0208

09-13-2007, 10:13 PM

I've never heard of that title . I think there 2 titles . Maybe I'm wrong ! Who cares , Jones still sucks :good
Well your extreme view is not one thats going to hold much water in most cases. Not 2 titles BTW, it's just a nothing belt like the IBC.

kg0208

09-13-2007, 10:18 PM

He sucks now ! Hopkins doesn't :good
Legacy is not just about now. But hey, have fun with whatever.

Imperial1

09-13-2007, 10:19 PM

No contest ..Roy Jones by wide margin ..People are giving all this praise for what Hopkins did capturing a LT HEAVY weight title but Jones did that long before Hopkins was even considering going back to the weight he started at !

Imperial1

09-13-2007, 10:28 PM

So what ? Jones wasn't a life long middleweight !

Um no ! Check his record !He may have spent more time at super middle !

Carlos Primera

09-13-2007, 11:31 PM

cuchulain

09-14-2007, 12:36 AM

Against who though ?

Hopkins, for one.

cuchulain

09-14-2007, 12:38 AM

cuchulain

09-14-2007, 12:48 AM

Mind Reader

09-14-2007, 01:06 AM

come on man, even in their fight rjj was hardly 'destroying' hopkins. hopkins won some rounds as well, and most people thought rjj would just KO the relative unknown. also where does this bs about him beating hopkins with one hand come from? oh, rjj said it so it must be true. he also said he threw the third tarver fight, cause he did'nt want his dad to get any credit. rjj could be the president of his own fanclub, and anything he says should'nt be taken seriously.

I know he wasn't in that fight, but as people say Hopkins was green and got better after that fight, I believe Jones was young also... I do not consider Jones in his prime during this fight, which is why I made that statement.:good

Mind Reader

09-14-2007, 01:09 AM

Don't make me put my " Jones being KTFO " avatar back up ! I know it makes you want to cry :lol:

It's funny you have to resort to your childish games instead of posting subjective information that would validate your claims.:lol:

cuchulain

09-14-2007, 01:11 AM

Okay , I,m not going to buy that anyone on Jones resume outside of Hopkins and Toney were anything more then B level fighters or way over the hill . And Tarver's KO and domination of Jones in 2 fights pretty much erase any credit Jones gets for the 1 close win :good

You keep bringing up Tarver's and Johnson's KO wins over a SHOT Jones.

You might as well bring up Tyson post Holyfield KO losses, or Leonard/Duran/Hearns losses after they were shot.

Prime Jones (up to Ruiz) is vastly superior to Hopkins in terms of speed, skill, opponents, achievements, decisiveness of victories, KO percentage, total domination of opponents, number of ROUNDS lost, etc.

To borrow from Quintin Tarentino:

maybe your method of massage differs
from mine, but touchin' his lady's
feet, and stickin' your tongue in
her holyiest of holyies, ain't the
same ballpark, ain't the same league,
ain't even the same fuckin' sport.

Roy and Bernard weren't in the same ballpark, weren't the same league, weren't even the same fuckin' sport !

cuchulain

09-14-2007, 01:20 AM

I've never heard of that title . I think there 2 titles . Maybe I'm wrong ! Who cares , Jones still sucks :good

This post illustrates the futility of debating with you.

You get KO'd in your facts department and what do you come back with?

Who cares , Jones still sucks.:good

'nuff said.

cuchulain

09-14-2007, 01:21 AM

He sucks now ! Hopkins doesn't :good

More sheer fuckin' brilliance

(and more Kindergarten smilies.)

Alo2006

09-14-2007, 01:54 AM

Jones overall

Alo2006

09-14-2007, 01:56 AM

You keep bringing up Tarver's and Johnson's KO wins over a SHOT Jones.

You might as well bring up Tyson post Holyfield KO losses, or Leonard/Duran/Hearns losses after they were shot.

Prime Jones (up to Ruiz) is vastly superior to Hopkins in terms of speed, skill, opponents, achievements, decisiveness of victories, KO percentage, total domination of opponents, number of ROUNDS lost, etc.

To borrow from Quintin Tarentino:

maybe your method of massage differs
from mine, but touchin' his lady's
feet, and stickin' your tongue in
her holyiest of holyies, ain't the
same ballpark, ain't the same league,
ain't even the same fuckin' sport.

Roy and Bernard weren't in the same ballpark, weren't the same league, weren't even the same fuckin' sport !

Good points made here :good

TheGreat

09-14-2007, 01:59 AM

RJJ bya mile, it ain't even close IMO.

dave_mur

09-14-2007, 03:52 AM

rjj is not helping his legacy with this "comeback" it may even be described as tarnishing what he has achevied before which was ground-breaking however hopkins is going the oppisite way after it looked like his stock was going down after taylor a win over the man at light heavyweight (incidentially rjj conquerer) and wright who hadnt lost in how many years on top of the fact he goes on the list of some of the greatest middleweights of all time, its hard to measure up

:boxer

Carlos Primera

09-14-2007, 04:08 AM

Prime Jones (up to Ruiz) is vastly superior to Hopkins in terms of speed, skill, opponents, achievements, decisiveness of victories, KO percentage, total domination of opponents, number of ROUNDS lost, etc.

your're lookin at this in a h2h aspect. if this was the way things were based on rjj must be the best of all time, cause no one else dominated his opponents like him, had speed like him, lost the least number of rounds at him etc.... if you're taking into account the way rjj dominated his opponents, you might as well take into account hopkins longetivity. how he accopmlished things in his advanced age is a marvel as well.

how come you think his opponests/achievements are better than hopkins??

roy: titles at 160, 168, 175, hvy weight, best wins: Hopkins, Toney, Ruiz, Griffin, Woods, Harmon, Harding, Gonzales, and Hill.

hopkins: MW defense record, title at 175, best wins: best wins include trinidad, DLH, Winky, Eastman, echols, joppy, glen johnson, tarver. (hopkins can possibly still add to this)

their resumes and accomplishments are more or less comparable. id even go on a limb, and say hopkins is slightly better.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 04:29 AM

your're lookin at this in a h2h aspect. if this was the way things were based on rjj must be the best of all time, cause no one else dominated his opponents like him, had speed like him, lost the least number of rounds at him etc.... if you're taking into account the way rjj dominated his opponents, you might as well take into account hopkins longetivity. how he accopmlished things in his advanced age is a marvel as well.

how come you think his opponests/achievements are better than hopkins??

roy: titles at 160, 168, 175, hvy weight, best wins: Hopkins, Toney, Ruiz, Griffin, Woods, Harmon, Harding, Gonzales, and Hill.

hopkins: MW defense record, title at 175, best wins: best wins include trinidad, DLH, Winky, Eastman, echols, joppy, glen johnson, tarver. (hopkins can possibly still add to this)

their resumes and accomplishments are more or less comparable. id even go on a limb, and say hopkins is slightly better.
If Tarver is going to be on Hopkins list, he must be on Jones list as well.

The only thing that makes this comparable is the fact that Hopkins has the MW record. But remember, Jones defended his LHW title 11 times, so he is no slouch there. And that HW title win IMO is the deal breaker.

Hopkins best wins are DLH, Trinidad, and Wright...but he beat them when they were not at their best weights. Jones best wins are Hopkins, Toney, and Hill, but all at their peak weights (Toney is debatable here) and Hopkins was the larger man in all of those fights. Jones best wins never fought below Jones weight class.

cuchulain

09-14-2007, 05:31 AM

If Tarver is going to be on Hopkins list, he must be on Jones list as well.

The only thing that makes this comparable is the fact that Hopkins has the MW record. But remember, Jones defended his LHW title 11 times, so he is no slouch there. And that HW title win IMO is the deal breaker.

Hopkins best wins are DLH, Trinidad, and Wright...but he beat them when they were not at their best weights. Jones best wins are Hopkins, Toney, and Hill, but all at their peak weights (Toney is debatable here) and Hopkins was the larger man in all of those fights. Jones best wins never fought below Jones weight class.

You saved me some typing.

Moreover, h2h is important here.

Roy should have retired after Ruiz (or definitely after Tarver (1) )

If he had, we wouldn't be having this debate. Rather, we would be asking, based on resume and accomplishments, is Roy one of the two or three best ever in any division?

But like many before him (notably Ali) he just couldn't give up that limelight.

I'm a big Hopkins fan.

As individuals, I would probably enjoy a few jars with Hopkins more than meeting Roy.

But as boxers, Roy was better.

ChrisPontius

09-14-2007, 05:33 AM

Jones was undefeated for a long time
Against who though ?

How about against Hopkins himself? :rofl

cuchulain

09-14-2007, 05:53 AM

A-50

09-14-2007, 09:23 AM

Hopkins, better opponents, better wins, willing to fight anyone, never knocked out either.

Tettsuo

09-14-2007, 10:08 AM

I picked Hopkins solely because I think he's the fighter with superior skill. Jones is more of an athlete than Hopkins, but Hopkins has more going on upstairs.

BewareofDawg

09-14-2007, 10:50 AM

Yeah, but getting KOed like that is a part of his legacy is it not? So you have to factor that in with the overall picture.

.
No actually you don't have to factor that in.

How does getting KO'd by a lucky punch...yes lucky punch by Tarver and then beaten up and KO'd by Glenn Johnson, when Jones was waaaay past his best erase all he did prior??? It doesn't.

Just like Ali throwing in the towel against Holmes, Louis getting pummeled by Marciano, Foreman losing to Morrisson, Holyfield getting outboxed and TKO'd by that Fat Fuck......none of their legacys are tarnished. :deal

Jones beat Hopkins and Toney when they were both in their, at least Physical, Primes. He dominated the sport like no other for a long time. He did things in the ring that you didn't think were possible, made professional boxers look like bus drivers picked off the street. He moved up from middleweight and won the Heavyweight title.

Jones has the better legacy. Also look at it this way, Hopkins very well could be the "naturally" bigger of the two, he certainly looks bigger at 175lbs than Jones does. :deal

BewareofDawg

09-14-2007, 10:51 AM

Hopkins, better opponents, better wins, willing to fight anyone, never knocked out either.
no.

Jones beating Ruiz is more impressive to me than Hopkins beating Hoya and Tito. All of Hopkins signature wins are against much smaller opponents. :deal

SugarShane_24

09-14-2007, 10:52 AM

If both retired now, Jones definitely.

But as Hopkins is still not done being a top caliber fighter, there are still hills left to climb so for me, this is an enduring question that may not be clearly answered till both guys call it quits.

BewareofDawg

09-14-2007, 10:52 AM

BewareofDawg

09-14-2007, 11:05 AM

Yeah and pigs can fly.
Now your just being silly :nut

We'll see though. After he knocks Tito into next bolivian, he will get a title shot. :deal :deal :deal

Carlos Primera

09-14-2007, 12:07 PM

no.

Jones beating Ruiz is more impressive to me than Hopkins beating Hoya and Tito. All of Hopkins signature wins are against much smaller opponents. :deal
bullshit. i'd prefer if you said that toney and hopkins were better wins than tito and DLH. but ruiz?? A shit hvy weight title holder handpicked by rjj, so he can brag about winning a hvyweight strap. ruiz was the right man at the right time. he could have gone for byrd's ibf title, that would have been more credible. you roytards are delusional for dragging hopkins resume through mud.

standing 8

09-14-2007, 12:35 PM

Voted for Jones, two out of the three biggest Hopkins victories were against smaller men.

BewareofDawg

09-14-2007, 12:45 PM

bullshit. i'd prefer if you said that toney and hopkins were better wins than tito and DLH. .
Those two wins are definitely better :deal

kg0208

09-14-2007, 01:36 PM

For me they are about equal but i have Hopkins ahead of Jones but that´s because Hopkins is one of my favourites and i dislike Jones. Jones was more exciting and more hype and so will be better remembered by the casual fan while i think Hopkins will more stuck in the head of the real fans.

Good deal...like I said originally it's always close (usually closer that this in the poll...Jones is starting to be looked at in a better light since the fighters he beat who were "bums" seem to be doing well) and a case can be made for both if you really wanted to.

I am from Pensacola so Jones is my fav of all time.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 01:38 PM

Yeah but his loses were definitely much , much worse !

But in the ring, he only has 2.....Hopkins has 4 and one of them is to Jones.

Pimp C

09-14-2007, 01:39 PM

Jones has the slight edge here.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 01:44 PM

3 :good Don't forget about the 3rd Tarver fight huh ? And if you count Hopkins first fight as a legit loss then I can count the dq to Griffin as a loss that actually matters ! So it's even and Jones losses were much much worse ! Jones has 3 real hard losses . Hopkins only real loss was to Jones :good
Yah 3....

And no, losing a fight by DQ is not the same as losing by decision in your first fight. While both being losses, they are totally different in impact, just as Jones losses by KO are different in impact. But that was cute of you to try. And his losses to Taylor count as well....close losses are losses, and you can't change them. Hopkins draw with an above average fighter must be counted as well:bbb

kg0208

09-14-2007, 01:45 PM

That's because Mindreader signed up for 15 accounts to sway the voting :good

You just hate Jones.

A-50

09-14-2007, 01:55 PM

no.

Jones beating Ruiz is more impressive to me than Hopkins beating Hoya and Tito. All of Hopkins signature wins are against much smaller opponents. :deal

You consider John Ruiz a signature win? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Good Lord this might be worse than some of the crap the Wlad Klitschko fans post.

klion22

09-14-2007, 01:59 PM

I think a lot of people are just looking at wins and not looking at how the losses. More specifically, how they lost.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 02:10 PM

I think a lot of people are just looking at wins and not looking at how the losses. More specifically, how they lost.

No, we are looking how....and who to as well. We are also looking at when, which is a significant factor.

As far as wins, we are looking the same thing. Who, when, and how.

klion22

09-14-2007, 02:16 PM

No, we are looking how....and who to as well. We are also looking at when, which is a significant factor.

As far as wins, we are looking the same thing. Who, when, and how.

If you think about it, Hopkins only has one loss in which he clearly lost. And that was against RJJ. His other 3 losses were as follows: His very first fight as a pro and his two losses to JT. And i know that maybe half of real boxing fans think that Hopkins won both. So they were disputable losses.

On the flip side, look at how many fights Jones has lost clearly. Obviously, his two crushing KOs versus Tarver and Johnson. And his 3rd fight with Tarver in which he simply wanted to stay upright to redeem himself.

I don't know, just the way RJJ ended his career leaves a bad taste in my mouth. What's worse is that he didn't show the heart of a champion. That's what gets me the most. He was afraid of contact.

BewareofDawg

09-14-2007, 02:22 PM

!
Who's that chick?

klion22

09-14-2007, 02:24 PM

Who's that chick?

My girlfriend.

BewareofDawg

09-14-2007, 02:27 PM

My girlfriend.
Is she available for private parties? For a small fee of course :D

kg0208

09-14-2007, 02:35 PM

If you think about it, Hopkins only has one loss in which he clearly lost. And that was against RJJ. His other 3 losses were as follows: His very first fight as a pro and his two losses to JT. And i know that maybe half of real boxing fans think that Hopkins won both. So they were disputable losses.

On the flip side, look at how many fights Jones has lost clearly. Obviously, his two crushing KOs versus Tarver and Johnson. And his 3rd fight with Tarver in which he simply wanted to stay upright to redeem himself.

I don't know, just the way RJJ ended his career leaves a bad taste in my mouth. What's worse is that he didn't show the heart of a champion. That's what gets me the most. He was afraid of contact.
He showed a ton of heart in the first fight with Tarver....but his last fight with Tarver was crap.

Hopkins clearly lost his first fight as well, though being his first fight many may want to give him a pass. But would Jones have gotten one? I doubt it.

Jones lost 3 times clearly to Hopkins 2 times, and if you count past Jones prime losses you have to count before Hopkins prime losses as well. They are all out of prime.

Jones wins were even more dominant and clear than Hopkins, and I daresay he challenged himself more. That may be subjective, but it is how I view it. Even objectively it is clear that Jones best wins are better than Hopkins best.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 03:07 PM

No , I don't hate Jones I just call it like it is . Roy Jones was on his way to being the greatest of all time before he was exposed and KTFO like that . He was not way past his prime like the Roytards might like to believe . You might think I'm being harsh but that's the way it is when your in comparison with all time great fighters in such a brutal sport . Roy was always unbelievably gifted but he never had the beans of a real fighter ! People knew that even before the KO's :good

No, you aren't being objective and you apply a double standard something you have been called on before. People can always hide behind the "telling it like it is" and think that justifies something. When fact seperates from what you say, it no longer applies.

You hate Jones, you have proven so in this thread and it is more than obvious.

BTW, Jones was no where close to being the GOAT. He would have had to have beaten Lewis and Byrd to move into that discussion and that wasn't happening. :deal

Marnoff

09-14-2007, 03:11 PM

In terms of overall legacy, you have to factor in that Jones was knocked out twice in severe fashion. I realize this was on the end of his career, but it's a blemish that Hopkins does not have. He is taking big challenges and rising above them on the end of his career. What Taylor goes on to do magnifies how great it was for Hopkins to be competitive in both of those fights as well. It will be interesting when it is all said and done.

PH|LLA

09-14-2007, 03:13 PM

As a huge fan of hopkins i voted to close to call but in reality its jones by a thread

btw its not a simple question

Marnoff

09-14-2007, 03:15 PM

Whatever ? Jones was absolutely on his way and Lewis and Byrd have nothing to do with it . I don't know where you got that from ?

He's saying if Jones wanted to be the greatest of all time, he needed to beat Lewis and Byrd at least.

IsaL

09-14-2007, 03:15 PM

RJJ is one of the best MW is history, not only that he is a former HW champ. I'm inclened to say he beat better opponents than Hopkins at MW.

Marnoff

09-14-2007, 03:16 PM

RJJ is one of the best MW is history, not only that he is a former HW champ. I'm inclened to say he beat better opponents than Hopkins at MW.

Be specific, please.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 03:19 PM

Be specific, please.

Hopkins himself is Jones best MW win....but Hopkins has a longer MW resume. Hopkins is a better win than anyone he ever beat obviously, since he only lost 3 times there and Taylor isn't better than the Hopkins Jones beat IMO.

Marnoff

09-14-2007, 03:24 PM

Hopkins himself is Jones best MW win....but Hopkins has a longer MW resume. Hopkins is a better win than anyone he ever beat obviously, since he only lost 3 times there and Taylor isn't better than the Hopkins Jones beat IMO.

They're the best fighters either of them encountered. I don't deny that, but I see Hopkins obviously as having a better run at Middleweight than Jones.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 03:24 PM

Whatever ? Jones was absolutely on his way and Lewis and Byrd have nothing to do with it . I don't know where you got that from ?

How would Jones have become the GOAT...not factoring in his losses, Jone still isn't in my top 20 ATG and I am a fan.

Your whatever is taken as what it is....you have posts in here that say Jones sucks and never was good.

You said Virgil Hill was past it at age 34 but Jones was prime at the same age....all the while arguing that Hopkins wasn't past it at the same age as Jones was when he got KO'd so 34 wasn't past it for anyone. Thats contradicting, and until you can explain the logic there, it looks bad. You refused to acknowledge after many attempts that fighters age differently, but had no answer when Hill was brought up.

cuchulain

09-14-2007, 03:24 PM

Whatever ? Jones was absolutely on his way and Lewis and Byrd have nothing to do with it . I don't know where you got that from ?

It appears you can't read any better than you can write.

IsaL

09-14-2007, 03:24 PM

Be specific, please.

Tell me what are Hopkins' best wins at MW?

Trinidad and De La Hoya? Winky Wright?

Marnoff

09-14-2007, 03:26 PM

Tell me what are Hopkins' best wins at MW?

Trinidad and De La Hoya? Winky Wright?

Glen Johnson?

Winky Wright was at 170lbs... did you watch it or follow it? It just happened recently.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 03:26 PM

They're the best fighters either of them encountered. I don't deny that, but I see Hopkins obviously as having a better run at Middleweight than Jones.

Certainly he did. Maybe a better run than anyone. I am saying that the best fighter Jones beat at MW was Hopkins, so maybe that's what he means about him beating better fighters.

This really comes down to what you put more emphasis on....wins or losses IMO.

cuchulain

09-14-2007, 03:27 PM

That's not even close to the same . You saying Ali was shot when he lost to Ken Norton would be what your trying to do now with Roy and Tarver :good

Think again, manlovin.

Ali was 31 when he lost to Norton.

He was faaaar from shot. He still had two victories over Norton, two over Frazier and one over Foreman IN HIS FUTURE.

Roy was 35 and Shot.

Marnoff

09-14-2007, 03:28 PM

Certainly he did. Maybe a better run than anyone. I am saying that the best fighter Jones beat at MW was Hopkins, so maybe that's what he means about him beating better fighters.

This really comes down to what you put more emphasis on....wins or losses IMO.

Sure, Jones' best win (over Hopkins) is better than any win Hopkins racked up, based on the fact that Hopkins himself ranks so highly. In terms of number of quality opponents at Middleweight, there I would prefer Hopkins.

IsaL

09-14-2007, 03:29 PM

Marnoff

09-14-2007, 03:31 PM

Having wins over Toney and Hopkins at MW are better than wins over Trinidad and DLH at MW.

Oh my fucking.... Man, Jones fought Toney at Supermiddleweight. Please do some research.

To recap: Hopkins fought Wright at 170lbs. Jones fought Toney at 168lbs.

Edit: Did you even see my post regarding Hopkins' win over Johnson?

kg0208

09-14-2007, 03:31 PM

Sure, Jones' best win (over Hopkins) is better than any win Hopkins racked up, based on the fact that Hopkins himself ranks so highly. In terms of number of quality opponents at Middleweight, there I would prefer Hopkins.

At MW, yes....overall, I would favor Jones. And in terms of sheer dominance over his competition I would favor Jones as well, but that may not be fair to Hopkins. Hopkins style was a break down style, even when he was more aggressive in the mid 90's. Jones just made people look silly.

Marnoff

09-14-2007, 03:34 PM

At MW, yes....overall, I would favor Jones. And in terms of sheer dominance over his competition I would favor Jones as well, but that may not be fair to Hopkins. Hopkins style was a break down style, even when he was more aggressive in the mid 90's. Jones just made people look silly.

Aye, I find it very hard to make a judgment on their legacies at this point right now because they're not done writing their stories. If Jones is humiliated by brutal knockout again and Hopkins is able to beat another top name... maybe that tilts the scale. We'll see. I realize they're both past it, but if they keep fighting it has to count for something.

For instance, if a fighter keeps going past his prime, he risks hurting his overall legacy by virtue of the fact that if he WINS, the praise is multiplied. So if they have a chance to increase their legacy, they have to also be at risk to decrease it.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 03:36 PM

Aye, I find it very hard to make a judgment on their legacies at this point right now because they're not done writing their stories. If Jones is humiliated by brutal knockout again and Hopkins is able to beat another top name... maybe that tilts the scale. We'll see. I realize they're both past it, but if they keep fighting it has to count for something.

For instance, if a fighter keeps going past his prime, he risks hurting his overall legacy by virtue of the fact that if he WINS, the praise is multiplied. So if they have a chance to increase their legacy, they have to also be at risk to decrease it.

Gotcha....sadly Jones has slown down to a point where I think what would have been a signature win in 2001 over Tito may now end up in the loss column for Jones.

Marnoff

09-14-2007, 03:40 PM

Gotcha....sadly Jones has slown down to a point where I think what would have been a signature win in 2001 over Tito may now end up in the loss column for Jones.

Yep, it's an interesting fight based on the fact that it is unclear what is left of Tito, but I expect him to still be strong as he has had time for his body to rest. If he's stayed in shape (I don't follow him closely at all) he could be tough for Jones to deal with. Also I don't know how well Jones will cope to losing even more weight to make the fight happen... what limit did they settle on again?

I'd like him to win and meet Hopkins again, for what it's worth. I think that'd be the one of the biggest motivation fights of either of their careers. Jones vs. Griffin II and Hopkins vs. Trinidad would be comparable.

Tettsuo

09-14-2007, 03:41 PM

Why do ya'll consider:

1 - Jones was shot when Tarver KO'ed him.
2 - Tarver got in a "lucky punch".

Why isn't it said that Tarver ruined Jones and he timed him perfectly?

Personally I say it's a double factor. The first is Jones lost just a touch of speed. Not a ton, but just enough to get caught and certainly not enough to make a fighter shot. The second I attribute to Tarver studying the crap outta Jones for years. Tarver spent a long time trying to get Jones in the ring and probably knew everything he was going to do.

Jones never took any serious damage in the ring for a long ass time. Usually a fighter becomes shot after absorbing alot of damage over time. In regard to Jones, I think father time and poor technique is what beat him... and that Tarver hook that put him on his back.

BewareofDawg

09-14-2007, 04:15 PM

Why do ya'll consider:

2 - Tarver got in a "lucky punch".

.
Because his eyes were closed when he threw the punch. Go watch the tape :deal

klion22

09-14-2007, 04:21 PM

Because his eyes were closed when he threw the punch. Go watch the tape :deal

A lot of counter punches are thrown without the intent to hit a specific spot but instead, it is thrown to land at a general area. And Tarver did that to perfection. It wasn't just luck. It was a timed counter punch.

When Hopkins throws his counter right hands, he sometimes doesn't even look at where he's throwing as he has his head down. But he knows where the fighter is and throws at a general vicinity.

Marnoff

09-14-2007, 05:30 PM

Because Roy-tards have to rationalize his KO's by saying he was shot even though he just had 1 of his greatest performances . In short it's an excuse :good

?

box03

09-14-2007, 05:36 PM

Hopkins barely its true people will remember Jones for his great knockout and blazing speed, but they will also remember him getting knocked out twice something that never happend to Hopkins.

Boro chris

09-14-2007, 06:04 PM

Because Roy-tards have to rationalize his KO's by saying he was shot even though he just had 1 of his greatest performances . In short it's an excuse :good
You can crit RJJ for his losses, but his achievements speak for themselves.

I voted for RJJ and its not particularly close, even though I think Bhop's an atg.

Jones-
BHop Jorge Castro Thulani Malinga Thomas Tate
Toney Montell Griffin Merqui Sosa Vin Paz
Virgil Hill Eric Lucas Tony Thornton
Julio Gonzalez Reggie Johnson
Clinton Woods Eric Harding
Antonio Tarver John Ruiz

Hopkins-

Trinidad Glenn Johnson Antwun Echols
ODH Syd Vanderpool
Keith Holmes
Tarver
H.Eastman

Both RJJ's atg opponents were the same size. BHop was considerably bigger than ODLH and Trinidad.

brooklyn1550

09-14-2007, 06:07 PM

I voted for RJJ and its not particularly close, even though I think Bhop's an atg.

Jones-
BHop Jorge Castro Thulani Malinga Thomas Tate
Toney Montell Griffin Merqui Sosa Vin Paz
Virgil Hill Eric Lucas Tony Thornton
Julio Gonzalez Reggie Johnson
Clinton Woods Eric Harding
Antonio Tarver John Ruiz

Hopkins-

Trinidad Glenn Johnson Antwun Echols
ODH Syd Vanderpool
Keith Holmes
Tarver
H.Eastman

Both RJJ's atg opponents were the same size. BHop was considerably bigger than ODLH and Trinidad.

For Hopkins, you've got Trinidad, Johnson, Echols, De La Hoya, Vanderpool, Holmes, Tarver, and Eastman, but you HAVE to add in Winky Wright and William Joppy. You could add in Carl Daniels, Robert Allen, and Joe Lipsey as well.

Mind Reader

09-14-2007, 06:14 PM

Because Roy-tards have to rationalize his KO's by saying he was shot even though he just had 1 of his greatest performances . In short it's an excuse :good

Tarver Jones 1 ?? one of his greatest performances?:lol:
He looked his worst ever up to that point... in the fight before he was knocked out.

Mind Reader

09-14-2007, 06:20 PM

34 and it's the same thing ! and in case you missed it :good Chuch , You've got your head so far up your own ass it's not even funny . Nobody thinks your highly intelligent . I can guarantee you annoy the shit out of all your friends and they all laugh at you behind your back :patsch That's if you have any left ? :hi:By the way , You sound like a Fat Jewish Wigga !

I know your frusterated and angry, but puberty will come soon, it eventually happens.:good

Marnoff

09-14-2007, 06:56 PM

I voted for RJJ and its not particularly close, even though I think Bhop's an atg.

Lots of genuine debate for something that isn't even close.

cuchulain

09-14-2007, 07:50 PM

34 and it's the same thing ! and in case you missed it :good Chuch , You've got your head so far up your own ass it's not even funny . Nobody thinks your highly intelligent . I can guarantee you annoy the shit out of all your friends and they all laugh at you behind your back :patsch That's if you have any left ? :hi:By the way , You sound like a Fat Jewish Wigga !

And that responds to the points made in my post?

You can't respond to the shredding of your argument ,so, like a little kid you throw some ill-informed personal shit that has nothing to do with the subject.

You're pathetic.

cuchulain

09-14-2007, 07:56 PM

Because Roy-tards have to rationalize his KO's by saying he was shot even though he just had 1 of his greatest performances . In short it's an excuse :good

His loss to Tarver was due in part to that very performance you mention. He went from 200 to 175 and , given his stage in life, ran into some energy problems.

(Same thing happened to Tarver when he did the same thing !)

By your reasoning: Shane owns Oscar, Vernon owns Shane and Ricardo owns Vernon. Does this mean Ricardo owns Oscar?

Straightforward fact is, Roy owns Bernard.
Decisive victory.

You can't read, you can't write, and you don't know how to think. You just spout off.

Like I said, PATHETIC !

Marnoff

09-14-2007, 08:06 PM

Straightforward fact is, Roy owns Bernard.
Decisive victory.

Not so straightforward at all.

Mind Reader

09-14-2007, 08:44 PM

Hey mindreader :hi: That's some ugly baby in your profile :good

Thanks man!:good

Mind Reader

09-14-2007, 08:48 PM

Your a fat peice of shit !

Hey McLovin, my little cousin's doctor hooked him up with some hormone pills.... I can get the doc's number for you if you want:lol:

kg0208

09-14-2007, 08:56 PM

In fact I shredded your Roy-tarded arguement no less then 10x Jew boy :good You only hear what you want to hear :hi: Hello , Roy got KTFO bad twice while he was still on top Puff dradle . Your excuses about him being shot are 100% bullshit . His legacy was trashed . Hopkins is a real fighter only beaten by Jones because he's a runner , not a fighter . Jones said it himself . Real champions can fight off the bottom . Jones crumbled on the bottom and that's the way it is :deal

This is pathetic. Please don't try and pretend to be objective again.

ironchamp

09-14-2007, 08:58 PM

You said Virgil Hill was past it at age 34 but Jones was prime at the same age....all the while arguing that Hopkins wasn't past it at the same age as Jones was when he got KO'd so 34 wasn't past it for anyone. Thats contradicting, and until you can explain the logic there, it looks bad. You refused to acknowledge after many attempts that fighters age differently, but had no answer when Hill was brought up.

Good Point. Fighters do age differently. Look at Vargas 29 years old and most people would label him past his prime. Some even call him shot. Look at James Toney at 35 against an aged Holyfield. He looked sharp.

The more I think about it I think Jones was IMO the better fighter and has the greater legacy. His best wins are better than Hopkins's best wins and he was relavant for a longer time period.

Hopkins can claim consistency but nobody really took him seriously until he dismantled Felix Trinidad in 2001. The funny thing is had he lost to Trinidad people would have seen Hopkins as a flash in the pan even though Hopkins was clearly a veteran champion at that point.

In boxing more than any other sport, You're only as good as your last performance unless you are a star. Then you get another chance. Fans for whatever reason prefer a strong finish more so than a strong start. Hopkins is closing out a stronger finish than Jones and that seems to resonate in the eyes of posters despite what happened previously.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 09:00 PM

Good Point. Fighters do age differently. Look at Vargas 29 years old and most people would label him past his prime. Some even call him shot. Look at James Toney at 35 against an aged Holyfield. He looked sharp.

The more I think about it I think Jones was IMO the better fighter and has the greater legacy. His best wins are better than Hopkins's best wins and he was relavant for a longer time period.

Hopkins can claim consistency but nobody really took him seriously until he dismantled Felix Trinidad in 2001. The funny thing is had he lost to Trinidad people would have seen Hopkins as a flash in the pan even though Hopkins was clearly a veteran champion at that point.

In boxing more than any other sport, You're only as good as your last performance unless you are a star. Then you get another chance. Fans for whatever reason prefer a strong finish more so than a strong start. Hopkins is closing out a stronger finish than Jones and that seems to resonate in the eyes of posters despite what happened previously.

Only a few vocal posters really. The poll isn't overly close as the further out of Jones prime we get the more most recognize his impact.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 09:01 PM

No your pathetic and an apparent , undercover Roy-tard ?
Whatever makes you feel like a man.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 09:08 PM

The poll isn't close because some of you Roy boys got like 10 accounts :good I guarantee Mindreader signed up 10x at least :good

Says the alias.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 09:09 PM

Wrong as usual :good

Again, if that makes you feel better.

Marnoff

09-14-2007, 09:11 PM

Hopkins can claim consistency but nobody really took him seriously until he dismantled Felix Trinidad in 2001. The funny thing is had he lost to Trinidad people would have seen Hopkins as a flash in the pan even though Hopkins was clearly a veteran champion at that point.

Hmm, I'm not sure quite how to take your post. Are you making that statement as a negative point on Hopkins? Just asking for clarity, because I wouldn't consider the fact that the public was behind-the-times to be his fault.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 09:15 PM

Wrong as usual :good

Welcome back Dipper....trying to hide your Jones hate and Tarver love ( I even saw you criticize him this week) in an attempt to hide who you are?

Sorry, you're too easy to spot. I have pointed out that you were probably him for 2 weeks now.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 09:16 PM

It does , Much like you always think your right when you clearly never are :lol:
Ok Dipper AKA Brawler.

Marnoff

09-14-2007, 09:17 PM

Welcome back Dipper....trying to hide your Jones hate and Tarver love ( I even saw you criticize him this week) in an attempt to hide who you are?

Sorry, you're too easy to spot. I have pointed out that you were probably him for 2 weeks now.

I think that's probably an accurate assessment, come to think of it.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 09:18 PM

I think that's probably an accurate assessment, come to think of it.

Dipper Brown's last post was August 16th, the same date McLovin joined....and happens to have (until yesterday) a picture of Jones KO'd and "Iron Chinned Jones" in his signature.

MSTR

09-14-2007, 09:19 PM

Marnoff

09-14-2007, 09:22 PM

Dipper Brown's last post was August 16th, the same date McLovin joined....and happens to have (until yesterday) a picture of Jones KO'd and "Iron Chinned Jones" in his signature.

I think that about seals the deal. That's hilarious that he even insulted Tarver to hide himself.

In a thread like this there is no reason to put either fighter down. Both Roy and Hopkins made their bones in the business... and when someone is coming out with sheer hate against either, they stand out. I guess this guy wasn't that bright to begin with. Easy catch.

Marnoff

09-14-2007, 09:26 PM

Another dipshit :good

Sure.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 09:28 PM

Sure.

Same posting style too when he gets angry or cornered. Gotta respect the persistance.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 09:29 PM

Another Roy-tard pretending to have a NPOV that can't except the fact some people believe Roy was not the greatest thing that ever walked the face of the earth . Fucking pathetic :lol:

So its a coincidence right?

kg0208

09-14-2007, 09:32 PM

Boring :roll:

Which is not an answer....same thing Dipper did when he was exposed as the Brawler.

Marnoff

09-14-2007, 09:34 PM

Same posting style too when he gets angry or cornered. Gotta respect the persistance.

Yep, like a mangy dog backed into a corner. It's interesting because he actually has no interest in the thread itself.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 09:46 PM

I already said I wasn't him genius ! Like I said you only hear what you want to hear . Your wrong about me just like your wrong about Roy and probably everything else you think you "know" :lol:
Critcizing someone's intelligence while being unable to use the word "your" correctly. No contractions taught at your school?

Yah, you're him. But welcome back. The lack of Tarver threads has improved you greatly. Now if you could only learn objectivity.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 09:49 PM

Oh god , Who are you the grammar Nazi ? I'm sure you've spelled everything you ever typed right :roll:

It's not about spelling :deal

The words don't mean the same thing:lol::lol::lol:

Bye Brawler....

kg0208

09-14-2007, 09:53 PM

Whatever genius :good

Thank you:deal

Marnoff

09-14-2007, 09:57 PM

Who are you kg0208's gay sidekick ?

Sly....

cuchulain

09-14-2007, 09:57 PM

You sound like a Fat Jewish Wigga !

(What's your problem with Jews, you little Nazi fuckwit?)

and

Your a fat peice of shit !

Now you can SEE other posters too?

And you can tell their race?

You're hilarious.

All that anger and no outlets. All you can do is rage like a little baby!

Life must be a bitch, eh?

Or are you just on the rag, ManLovin'?

Maybe you should go change your panty-liner.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 10:18 PM

Were you gang-raped by a gang of Jew-boys, Manlovin' ?

Could that be your problem?

Since you've been owned by every poster you've tangled with on this thread, did they own you too?

And every time you get owned, it comes flooding back.

Is that you in your new avatar?

Is it he flashbacks, the frustration, or maybe it's because you liked it, and now there's the gender-bending questions floating through your tiny mind.

So you sit at your keyboard, jerkin' off all over our monitors, with your sadly limited boxing knowledge and even more limited grasp of letters.

Still, as Kg0208, says, if that's what it takes to make you feel good, go for it.

Such a pitiful and pathetic little existence must be hard to take.

She looks like you sound

It's just Dipper_Brown....one line answers is all he deserves if any answer at all. Don't waste time on him.

Carlos Primera

09-14-2007, 10:25 PM

It's just Dipper_Brown....one line answers is all he deserves if any answer at all. Don't waste time on him.
hey KG was dipper_brown banned? have'nt seen him around lately.

Scar

09-14-2007, 10:25 PM

Jones.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 10:29 PM

hey KG was dipper_brown banned? have'nt seen him around lately.
No idea if he was banned or not. His last thread was about a bet to give someone his profile if Taylor didn't beat Pavlik.

But his last post is August 16th.....the same day McLovin joined the site. Same posting style, same hatred for Jones.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 10:31 PM

Would you give it a rest buddy ? Your turning out to be a real Roy-tard !
Sorry Dipper AKA Brawler, the truth hurts. No point in running from it.

El Bombasto

09-14-2007, 10:33 PM

Simple question.

simple answer, jones

kg0208

09-14-2007, 10:36 PM

The truth is your a moron and this proves it ! Your so right about this like your so right about your bullshit opinions :lol: I changed my sig for ya :good
Pretending you don't like Tarver won't help you much.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 10:44 PM

I was watching the thread last night and you showed a lot of patience with this little cunt.

Sounds like a pimple-faced, junior high kid somewhere (who has failed English a few times).

Still, like you, deo Volente figured on him being Dipper a week ago. I agreed at the time.

See

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

and
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Whoever he is, he's hardly worth the effort, as you say. Too biased, too ignorant of boxing or logic. I thinke he (she ) might be female, not sure though.
Ahhh...so he has been figured out by others. I mentioned it a while back, but felt no need to research the subject. His angers towards Jones in this thread after pretending to be objective reminded me to look him up. Kinda obvious after a while though right?

This explains why he is so angry about being found out.

Scar

09-14-2007, 10:45 PM

Some posts deleted, stick to topic please.

McLovin, try to avoid posting insults like that if you would like to stay posting here. I'm not even going to private message you about the horrible junk you posted.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 10:47 PM

Scar

09-14-2007, 10:47 PM

Sorry Scar. Will get back on topic.

Appreciated. :good

Scar

09-14-2007, 10:55 PM

OK sorry , Ben and KG keep riding me because Roy Jones has a glass jaw !

No worries and Roy Jones doesn't have a glass jaw.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 10:56 PM

OK sorry , Ben and KG keep riding me because Roy Jones has a glass jaw !
No, I am riding you cuz you contradict yourself in your theories and won't argue without insulting everyone because you can't get your point across. Jones glass jaw held up for 50 fights. Not buying it.

cuchulain

09-14-2007, 11:01 PM

Did I say Ben ? I mean't cuchulain :good

And I ride you because you posted inslting racist drivel that has fuck all to do with the argument of the thread.

But I'm through with you now as we have established that it's highly probable that you're just ol' Dipper back with a new username, new avatars and the same tired old insults and name-calling, trying to substitute for real argument.

So long.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 11:02 PM

Yeah , He used to stand toe 2 toe all the time too . Besides it doesn't matter . Your comparing him to a guy that's never been knocked out and has just as good of a career :good

I am also comparing him to a guy who had less titles and was not as dominant. Oh, and Jones beat him.

Absence of proof is not proof by the way.

KO Boxing

09-14-2007, 11:10 PM

I'm glad the poll is as clear for Roy as it is...

Nice to see Dipper back to his Roy lovin' best, too... :D

Carlos Primera

09-14-2007, 11:18 PM

at this point in his career, rjj has a china chin that's undeniable.

cuchulain

09-14-2007, 11:19 PM

:hi: Ben , Hope you finish that novel soon :roll:

Best to you You too, Dipper/Mac or whatever.

Hope you pass English on your next try.

Hope you can eventually read well enough to figure out Cuchulain
(Hint: It's not Jewish and it's not from your country)

Hope all your other 'issues' get resolved (You know the ones I mean).

Keep takin' your meds and all will be fine.

See you on another thread sometime.

Regards.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 11:19 PM

Yeah and he had more title defenses and beat the 2 guys who KO'D Roy , the man that merely outpointed him ! Which is way better :good By the way Vinny Paz had 6 titles too . Is he better then Hopkins ?

They are no equivalent. You already know this. Beating a near prime Hopkins is not better than beating a shell of Jones. But again, if this is the best you can do in your argument, I understand your anger.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 11:27 PM

A shell :patsch Give me a break ...
Pointless to do so.

box03

09-14-2007, 11:36 PM

Jones probably wont get knocked out by Tito, but if he does he should definitely retire.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 11:38 PM

Whatever :good I can't wait to see Jones get knocked out again . How about you ?

Your post should have ended at "whatever". Hard for you to say you don't hate Jones when you say things like. Kinda proves the opposite.

BobDigi5060

09-14-2007, 11:41 PM

Jones.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 11:41 PM

I don't hate Jones , He's just not better then Hopkins :good You just can't except the fact that I don't idolize him like you :lol:

If thats what helps you sleep at night.

Accept, not except. They don't mean the same thing.

KO Boxing

09-14-2007, 11:42 PM

I don't hate Jones , He's just not better then Hopkins :good You just can't except the fact that I don't idolize him like you :lol:
Can you except the fact that you are in the minority?

KO Boxing

09-14-2007, 11:47 PM

Absolutely :good
:good

Scar

09-14-2007, 11:48 PM

I don't hate Jones , He's just not better then Hopkins :good You just can't except the fact that I don't idolize him like you :lol:

Not better than Hopkins?, what more proof do you need than their fight?
Yes, Hopkins was Green but so was Roy so it was more than fair and was also for the title which neither fighter had. So all the situations at the time clearly prove that it was fair in every way, not to forget that Roy basically had 1 hand in that fight but you don't have to believe that if you don't want to, the result is still crystal clear.

KO Boxing

09-14-2007, 11:52 PM

Not better than Hopkins?, what more proof do you need than their fight?
Yes, Hopkins was Green but so was Roy so it was more than fair and was also for the title which neither fighter had. So all the situations at the time clearly prove that it was fair in every way, not to forget that Roy basically had 1 hand in that fight but you don't have to believe that if you don't want to, the result is still crystal clear.
Just to play devil's advocate, cause I CLEARLY rate Jones above Hopkins, but Saddler beat Pep 3 times out of 4 and you'll see most rate Pep above Saddler. So having Hopkins above Jones despite the loss, wouldn't be the FIRST time. But I agree, the fight between Jones and Hopkins was clear enough that it would be pretty much the same (perhaps a LITTLE closer) at any stage in their career (barring now, perhaps). And if Jones REALLY did have an injured hand, then even moreso...

Scar

09-14-2007, 11:55 PM

Just to play devil's advocate, cause I CLEARLY rate Jones above Hopkins, but Saddler beat Pep 3 times out of 4 and you'll see most rate Pep above Saddler. So having Hopkins above Jones despite the loss, wouldn't be the FIRST time. But I agree, the fight between Jones and Hopkins was clear enough that it would be pretty much the same (perhaps a LITTLE closer) at any stage in their career (barring now, perhaps). And if Jones REALLY did have an injured hand, then even moreso...

I doubt Jones will lie about the injured hand, why would he do so?, to make Hopkins look worse?, I doubt he'll need that kind of attention with all the stuff he has accomplished anyway. Jones' speed gives Hopkins trouble ANYTIME, you can put the current version of Hopkins in there with the same version of Jones at his best at light heavyweight and Hopkins would still lose simply because of Jones speed/movement.

kg0208

09-14-2007, 11:56 PM

KO Boxing

09-14-2007, 11:56 PM

I doubt Jones will lie about the injured hand, why would he do so?, to make Hopkins look worse?, I doubt he'll need that kind of attention with all the stuff he has accomplished anyway. Jones' speed gives Hopkins trouble ANYTIME, you can put the current version of Hopkins in there with the same version of Jones at his best at light heavyweight and Hopkins would still lose simply because of Jones speed/movement.
I agree.

KO Boxing

09-14-2007, 11:57 PM

Also Tarver OWNED Jones twice ! Does that mean he has a better legacy ?
That doesn't count... Just like Berbick beating Ali... :yep :D

Scar

09-14-2007, 11:57 PM

What more do you need besides the fact that Hopkins beat and humiliated the 2 guys that ko'd Jones ? He's a better all around fighter despite losing on points to Jones . Ali split 2 fights with Ken Norton , Does that mean they are equals legacy wise ?

Beating the 2 guys that humiliated Jones means nothing to be honest, Jones was totally shot at the time and Hopkins has had a history of destroying left handers, he simply does better against them than Jones, that doesn't mean that Hopkins is overrall better. If both fighters didn't meet then I'll agree with you and when Ali split two fights with Norton they were both close, Jones vs Hopkins was TOTALLY one-sided in favor of Jones and the reason to that was crystal clear, Jones' speed and movement.

C Money

09-14-2007, 11:58 PM

kg0208

09-14-2007, 11:59 PM

Also Tarver OWNED Jones twice ! Does that mean he has a better legacy ?

BTW, you are using apples and oranges. None of your comparisons are equal. You are comparing fighters with little accomplishment in their careers but have wins over greats to a comparison of 2 ATG when one has beaten the other.

KO Boxing

09-14-2007, 11:59 PM

I wanna see Jones vs Hopkins 2 for the LHW title right now, winner takes all and that answers the question.
That's a bit unfair. Going off their first fight when both fighters were much closer to their primes, is fairer.

kg0208

09-15-2007, 12:00 AM

You keep bringing that up and it's not even the same thing !

Never brought that up before.

You said Hopkins beat the guys that beat Jones so he is better.

Mayorga beat the guy who beat Mosley. But he lost to a guy who Mosley beat.

Point is, you can't use those types of comparisons.

Scar

09-15-2007, 12:01 AM

Also Tarver OWNED Jones twice ! Does that mean he has a better legacy ?

Legacy-wise Jones wins, even in the ring Jones already won against Hopkins, there's nothing more needed and I'm a huge fan of both.

Jones -
Middleweight champion
Super middleweight champion
Light Heavyweight undisputed champion
Heavyweight champion

Back down to Light Heavyweight and once against undisputed champion then the losses started to come after all those major accomplishments were done with and after getting old and clearly showing signs of being shot. Hopkins on the other hand is getting better with age, doesn't mean Jones is horrible because he doesn't share the same.

kg0208

09-15-2007, 12:01 AM

I wanna see Jones vs Hopkins 2 for the LHW title right now, winner takes all and that answers the question.

I have no desire to see Jones vs Trinidad and cant understand why these two wont just make the one meaningful fight that remains for both:good

Hopkins has clearly aged better and would beat Jones now. If the fight was in 2001, we would have an answer.

kg0208

09-15-2007, 12:02 AM

Yeah and your not even following all the comments , your just refuting mine without looking to see what they where in response too !~

No, I saw what they were in response to. It isn't complicated.

Scar

09-15-2007, 12:02 AM

Totally shot :patsch Beating the man who beat the man means nothing in boxing now :patsch Forget it :good

You believe Jones was prime material at the time?, seriously speaking here. Did he look ANYTHING close to his prime to you?, if your answer is yes then I won't even continue arguing and will participate in any other thread, I just want a serious answer if you've seen enough of Jones.

C Money

09-15-2007, 12:05 AM

Hopkins has clearly aged better and would beat Jones now. If the fight was in 2001, we would have an answer.

60/40 and I buy my ass out of the rematch!!!:lol: :lol:

Fuck it, let em get it on in say May 2008?? Winner takes the legacy.

Hey, you're boy Roy has looked better recently and I fully expect he'll embarass Tito in January:good

Hops is still older so it all evens out, its a grudge match between the two best middles of the last decade and a half:yep

kg0208

09-15-2007, 12:05 AM

You believe Jones was prime material at the time?, seriously speaking here. Did he look ANYTHING close to his prime to you?, if your answer is yes then I won't even continue arguing and will participate in any other thread, I just want a serious answer if you've seen enough of Jones.

Jones was slowing signs of slowing down in 2001...his prime ended then.

He continued to win so it wasn't as noticable, but Jones was laying on the ropes more, losing footspeed and his workrate was dropping. People tend to equate prime with accomplishment, so they think Jones beating Ruiz meant he was still prime. Jones was still good enough to beat Ruiz, but not the same fighter as the one who dismantled Virgil Hill in 1997 or 1998.

Scar

09-15-2007, 12:06 AM

Hopkins isn't gettting better :patsch He's just not aging bad . He was way better in the late 90's !

Of course he was better in the late 90s because he was younger, that's not even a smart reply from you. My point of him getting better now is skill-wise and having the ability to compete with the best.

kg0208

09-15-2007, 12:07 AM

60/40 and I buy my ass out of the rematch!!!:lol: :lol:

Fuck it, let em get it on in say May 2008?? Winner takes the legacy.

Hey, you're boy Roy has looked better recently and I fully expect he'll embarass Tito in January:good

Hops is still older so it all evens out, its a grudge match between the two best middles of the last decade and a half:yep

You feel that Jones should have taken the fight at 50/50?

I can't agree with that. Jones was the draw, the P4P #1 and the LHW champion (fight was being negotiated for Jones title, not Hopkins).

60/40 was fair...and remember, Hopkins took far less in his next fight when he refused the Jones offer.

kg0208

09-15-2007, 12:07 AM

Yet you still managed to screw it up ...
Or it went over your head.

standing 8

09-15-2007, 12:10 AM

Hopkins has clearly aged better and would beat Jones now. If the fight was in 2001, we would have an answer.

I remember reading an old interview with hopkins where he said that he felt that he wouldn't be able to compete with Jones fighting above 168.

Scar

09-15-2007, 12:11 AM

There is something between prime and totally shot you know . And if he was nothing even close then how did he win the heavyweight title 2 fights before he got KO'd ?

That's because he had the motivation to win the Heavyweight title despite being shot in that fight as well. What motivation did he need to beat Tarver(Which he already did in the first fight)?, win a the undisputed title in a division he already cleaned?, the motivation was to shut someone up and it wasn't enough as it showed in the fight, not to forget that physically he wasn't the same either. If you remember his comments after the Ruiz fight you'll agree, Roy's plans were clear, he wanted a mega-fight with Mike Tyson(clearly for big money) and then out of boxing. So his plans had absolutely nothing to do with staying and dominating which proves that he KNEW he wasn't as he used to be anyway but was still managing with his skills and experience. Sadly, he still believed he has more to prove simply because many started to call him a "ducker" and all of that total junk so he gave Tarver another shot.

kg0208

09-15-2007, 12:11 AM

So , Hopkins was slowing down in the Trinidad fight if you compare it to the Johnson fight ? You can't just judge a guys career from the 2-3 years he was prime ? That's Roy-tarded ...

Not the point now was it? Point was, Jones wasn't prime and you don't seem to get that. His prime was over years before.

And Hopkins wasn't prime when he beat Tito, never said he was.

It's retarded that you think that little saying of yours seems to have an impact. Makes you look like a bitter child who is upset about someone he has never met.

Scar

09-15-2007, 12:12 AM

Jones was slowing signs of slowing down in 2001...his prime ended then.

He continued to win so it wasn't as noticable, but Jones was laying on the ropes more, losing footspeed and his workrate was dropping. People tend to equate prime with accomplishment, so they think Jones beating Ruiz meant he was still prime. Jones was still good enough to beat Ruiz, but not the same fighter as the one who dismantled Virgil Hill in 1997 or 1998.

Exactly.:good

kg0208

09-15-2007, 12:13 AM

Just like 60-40 was fair 9 months ago when Jones turned it down !

Yes it was. Never said it wasn't. Why are you bringing it up?

kg0208

09-15-2007, 12:14 AM

I remember reading an old interview with hopkins where he said that he felt that he wouldn't be able to compete with Jones fighting above 168.

Never saw it....would be interesting to read.

cuchulain

09-15-2007, 12:17 AM

Yet you still managed to screw it up ...

No . It was you who fucked up again Manlovin, when you said:

"You keep bringing that up". Kg didn't bring it up before. I did.

and like Scar, I refuted your mna who beat the man who beat the man...horseshit by mentioning Ali and Berbick.

You've heard it all before. It was valid then. And valid now. And all you can come up with is:"That's not the same thing."
Yes kid, it IS the same logic.

Now you can't remember who said it and you're too witless to go back and look.

BTW: Ali did not split the series with Norton. He won two out of three. (Watched the first one live, a disappointing night)

ANOTHER new avatar (is this the REAL you ?), but still the same slow-witted poster, whattever the avatar, whatever the username.

kg0208

09-15-2007, 12:19 AM

Because Jones could have fought Hopkins instead of Winky but he's scared to lose . Just like he didn't want to fight him in 2002 :good

60/40 was fair in favor in Jones in 2002. Hopkins turned it down and took less money to fight a lesser fighter.

Jones should have taken the offer last year.

But I am bored now. Enjoy your hatred. Welcome back Dipper.

Scar

09-15-2007, 12:21 AM

Oh god , You guys got more excuses then Roy ! Did he have motivation in the 2nd Tarver fight ? He hired Mackie Shillstone and was in great shape . Did he have any motivation in his comeback fight against Johnson after being humiliated ?

Roy didn't hire Mackie for the second Tarver fight, he hired him for the Ruiz fight. Dude, you don't need to be extra smart to figure this out. What is more motivating, to move up to Heavyweight and win the Championship there for the first time or move down and beat some trash talker in a division he already dominated and collected every single championship belt available?, this should make it clear why the motivation part is infact true, not just that but also showing signs of not being the same at all. Another serious point is his performance after moving down from Heavyweight being extremely weak despite beating Tarver the first time, isn't that what Tarver laughed at Roy for using as an "excuse" but he his self used after Hopkins beat the living hell out of him?

Scar

09-15-2007, 12:27 AM

OK , So you didn't know that Jones hired Mackie Shillstone for the 2nd Tarver fight as well ? He knew he looked like shit in the first fight so he got Mackie and made sure he was in the best possible shape for the 2nd . If he's not motivated that's his problem ... Tell him to stay home !

I don't really recall Mackie being hired for the 2nd fight to be honest, maybe I did see it at the time but right now I totally can't remmeber that, my bad if you're right. Sadly, staying home would've automatically labelled Roy as a "ducker" like many haters claimed he was but as a fan of his I'm proud of him for standing up and taking the challenge despite not being anything similar to what he used to be.

Scar

09-15-2007, 12:30 AM

He looked great in the first round though ! By the way is the new avatar alright ?

Loving it. :yep :blurp

cuchulain

09-15-2007, 12:36 AM

What's a heavy set 21 year old like yourself doing at the Keyboard on a Friday night anyways ?

WTF is this?

"The're all totally different people with totally different careers"

Have you gotten into your Dad's booze, or his medicine cabinet?

It's not Friday night where I am kid, We're well into Saturday morning here.

But if it's Friday with you, what's a young fella like yourself doing at the keyboard, when you should be out getting some pussy (if you're male) or some dick (if you're female) ?

I hope you score more with the babes (or dudes) than you do on this forum.

cuchulain

09-15-2007, 01:05 AM

How is the BX ?

Probably fine, whoever or whatever the BX is.

Carlos Primera

09-15-2007, 01:52 AM

is it verified that rjj hurt his hand against hopkins? thats always bothered me. it's like he's detracting from hopkins good performance against him, by saying he beat him with one hand. most people thought he'd blow hopkins out, but bernard took a few rounds in that fight. rjj has a history of spouting bullshit, and seems like a lot of people buy into that.

Marnoff

09-15-2007, 02:34 AM

Jones vs Hopkins was TOTALLY one-sided in favor of Jones and the reason to that was crystal clear, Jones' speed and movement.

I have to completely disagree here. The fight wasn't one-sided at all. There was give and take, with Jones winning a clear decision. Hopkins had rounds where he gave Jones all he could handle.

cuchulain

09-15-2007, 02:37 AM

I have to completely disagree here. The fight wasn't one-sided at all. There was give and take, with Jones winning a clear decision. Hopkins had rounds where he gave Jones all he could handle.

I wouldn't call it onesided either. BHop was competitive.

But the defeat was decisive. Bernard won three rounds to Roy's eight or nine with one round possibly even.

Marnoff

09-15-2007, 03:12 AM

I wouldn't call it onesided either. BHop was competitive.

But the defeat was decisive. Bernard won three rounds to Roy's eight or nine with one round possibly even.

Aye, very competitive. A lot of close rounds, many of them probably edged in Roy's favour, but not by HBO commentary's margin.

klion22

12-18-2008, 08:09 PM

Thought i would bump this as it's been a while.

Currently, it's 74 votes for RJ and 41 for Hopkins with 14 Too close to call.

Nub Nubly

12-18-2008, 09:46 PM

Nubs laughs at threads like these. People, especially boxing enthusiasts hate a fast talking, unorthodox fighter. RJJ made "Good" competition look HORRIBLE and "great" competition look BAD. No one looked good against jones in his prime. RJJ is NOTHING compared to who he was and he was able to knock down calzache on a horribly placed punch. Joe C tried to mock and emulate the old jones but he has nowhere NEAR the speed and power of a prime RJJ.

Regardin the question though, Nubs has the view that RJJ was one of the rawest talents this generation or any generation ever witnessed, and Hopkins may be cementing a better legecy. RJJ just couldn't quite let his talents shine against the best opponents because THEY WEREN'T really there

Most importantly, Nubs knows (and any other smart Nub) that legacy and talent are remembered long after a fighter's career ends and the defining moments of a fighters career are not judged by their twilight years...which is what people around here are making the mistake of doing...