Jeffries-Johnson coverage describe unlisted Johnson fights[boxrec].

[McGrain]

Just how impressive is Johnson's early career?

The original source is The Palestine Daily Herald, a Texas paper, July 5 1910. The paper is going over Johnson's early career, picking out his kep wins as part of the aftermath of the new champion's victory over Jeffries:

After [beating Charley Brooks] Johnson did not want for fights. He cleaned up the best of the darkies in the black belt, among his early victories being a knockout of Horace Miles in three rounds

Boxrec lists "no data" for Horace Miles.

Crossing this reference with The Washington Herald's issue of Monday July 4 1910, the fight is referenced again - a win in three rounds over Horace Miles in 1901. Infuriatingly, there is no date for the fight. Interesting that The Palestine regards this as one of Johnson's early wins, over a fighter of note but boxrec has nothing on him. I thought perhaps he fought the later part of his career under a different name, but Johnson's record for 1901 shows no third round Ko, probably ruling this out. In fact, Johnson's record for 1901 is suspiciously sparse:

Jim Scanlon (draw in 7), 14th January
Joe Choynski (L KO3) 25th Febuary
Billy Stift (draw 10) 26th April
Hank Griffen (LPTS 20) 4th November
Hang Griffen (Draw 15) 27th December


The Palestine again:

...Then George Lawlor, an Irish giant, who fought under the name of Jim McArmick.

The Washington Herald lists fights with this supposed giant, two back to back wins, also in 1901, but has no record of the 10 round decision. Boxrec shows no fighter named McArmick who fought over this year, but it DOES show a George Lawlor listed at 6'3 who weighed in at 180 for a 1900 fight with Tommy Ryan (LTKO13). If it's the same guy, that's quite an impressive scalp I think, though it might not be the same guy.

What do you think so far? Do you think these fights took place? Johnson is basically doing nothing for 7 months in 1901 which doesn't strike as very likely. The Palestine again:

...In between his fights with McArmick, Johnson defeated Jack Lee.

Not on boxrec. The Washington Herald lists Johnson as fighting a John Lee at around this time, a win over 10 rounds on points. Obviously I got the phone book looking for this guy, but I can't find a John or Jack Lee active in 1901 on boxrec, though I may have gone video blind at this point.



Boxrec has Johnson going 7-0-1 in 1902.

The Palestine: 1902 was the big one for Johnson. He was the principle in 16 contests, not losing one and having four draws.

Unfortunately, The Palestine does not put it's finger on any fights that boxrec does not list, concentrating on Johnson's "playing with" Jack Jeffries. But, and I think this is a bit exciting, The Washington Herald lists 16 fights for Johnson in 1902. I'll put it up word for word here:


Jan 17--D. Frank Childs, Chicago........6
K. Dan Murphy, Waterbury.....10
K. Ed. Johnson, Galveston......4
Mar 7--Joe Kennedy, Oakland...........4
Mar 15K Joe Kennedy, San Fransisco...4
W Bob White..........................15
W Jim Scanlan........................17
May 16k Jack Jeffries, LA..................5
K Klondyke, Memphis...............13
D Billy Stift, Denver..................10
Jun 20D Hank Griffin, LA.....................20
D Hank Griffin, LA.....................15
W Pete Everett, Victor, Colo........20
Oct21W Frank Childs, LA.....................12
Oct31W George Gardner, San Fransisco..20
Dec5 W.F Fred Russell, LA...................8

Quite a bit to be excited about here. The six round draw with Childs on Jan 17, the Ed Johnson, the March 15 fight with Joe Kennedy, Bob White, Jim Scanlan (possibly this is a refernce to the 1901 contest, however), the 13 round Ko of Klondyke (these two met a couple of times so this is a possible misprint), Billy Stift (as Klondyke) fights are all unlisted.

A lot of this is going to need a second look, and some horrible piss ant cross referencing, obviously, but thoughts so far?

[McGrain]

Sorry for the language (i thought it was important to reproduce the article as it stood), but I think it's interesting Johnson was seen to have "cleaned up the best of the darkies in the black belt". Like he'd cleaned out local HW toughs rather than just sweeping through it as is held to be the case.

[Ted Spoon]

What Johnson's record never conveys is his reputation, which was something to be reckoned with when he was climbing.

Choynski was a great veteran, but after tasting a bit of Johnson he knew what he was dealing with. This guy could move and he was as powerful as a truck. When folk crowded around Johnson to view him spar they could see how easily he tied his man and refuted any attempts of offense. He had an impregnability about him that was daunting and commanded interest.

There were the ever present racists that continually harped on about the physical differences of the black man, which led to illogical stabs at science like Johnsons rips are a bit too high to take a body shot well. Then there were the purists, who had nothing but praise for the dangerous splice of brains and brawn he clearly had.

Sure, Langford was a killer, but he did not have that empiric demeanour of Johnson who was also far better at talking the talk.

The fact Johnson got a shot at Burns showed how much of an impact he had had on the consciousness of 'White America'.

[Ted Spoon]

More attune to the thread, there will be a great deal of Johnson fights that will never be retrieved, simply for the fact the guy had dust-ups in the most obscure of places and times, whether it to be for some spare change or to prove a point.

[McGrain]

No takers? Not even Mendoza?!

[mattdonnellon]

Mcarmick is probably Jim Mc Cormick(or McCormack) and if my memory is correct Lawlor fought in the Texas area. My guess is these fights happened but I'll try a little checking.

[McGrain]

Very cool matt.

I'm going to do some snooping too, but probably not until Friday night.

[Mendoza]

Just how impressive is Johnson's early career?

The original source is The Palestine Daily Herald, a Texas paper, July 5 1910. The paper is going over Johnson's early career, picking out his kep wins as part of the aftermath of the new champion's victory over Jeffries:

After [beating Charley Brooks] Johnson did not want for fights. He cleaned up the best of the darkies in the black belt, among his early victories being a knockout of Horace Miles in three rounds

Boxrec lists "no data" for Horace Miles.

Crossing this reference with The Washington Herald's issue of Monday July 4 1910, the fight is referenced again - a win in three rounds over Horace Miles in 1901. Infuriatingly, there is no date for the fight. Interesting that The Palestine regards this as one of Johnson's early wins, over a fighter of note but boxrec has nothing on him. I thought perhaps he fought the later part of his career under a different name, but Johnson's record for 1901 shows no third round Ko, probably ruling this out. In fact, Johnson's record for 1901 is suspiciously sparse:

Jim Scanlon (draw in 7), 14th January
Joe Choynski (L KO3) 25th Febuary
Billy Stift (draw 10) 26th April
Hank Griffen (LPTS 20) 4th November
Hang Griffen (Draw 15) 27th December


The Palestine again:

...Then George Lawlor, an Irish giant, who fought under the name of Jim McArmick.

The Washington Herald lists fights with this supposed giant, two back to back wins, also in 1901, but has no record of the 10 round decision. Boxrec shows no fighter named McArmick who fought over this year, but it DOES show a George Lawlor listed at 6'3 who weighed in at 180 for a 1900 fight with Tommy Ryan (LTKO13). If it's the same guy, that's quite an impressive scalp I think, though it might not be the same guy.

What do you think so far? Do you think these fights took place? Johnson is basically doing nothing for 7 months in 1901 which doesn't strike as very likely. The Palestine again:

...In between his fights with McArmick, Johnson defeated Jack Lee.

Not on boxrec. The Washington Herald lists Johnson as fighting a John Lee at around this time, a win over 10 rounds on points. Obviously I got the phone book looking for this guy, but I can't find a John or Jack Lee active in 1901 on boxrec, though I may have gone video blind at this point.



Boxrec has Johnson going 7-0-1 in 1902.

The Palestine: 1902 was the big one for Johnson. He was the principle in 16 contests, not losing one and having four draws.

Unfortunately, The Palestine does not put it's finger on any fights that boxrec does not list, concentrating on Johnson's "playing with" Jack Jeffries. But, and I think this is a bit exciting, The Washington Herald lists 16 fights for Johnson in 1902. I'll put it up word for word here:


Jan 17--D. Frank Childs, Chicago........6
K. Dan Murphy, Waterbury.....10
K. Ed. Johnson, Galveston......4
Mar 7--Joe Kennedy, Oakland...........4
Mar 15K Joe Kennedy, San Fransisco...4
W Bob White..........................15
W Jim Scanlan........................17
May 16k Jack Jeffries, LA..................5
K Klondyke, Memphis...............13
D Billy Stift, Denver..................10
Jun 20D Hank Griffin, LA.....................20
D Hank Griffin, LA.....................15
W Pete Everett, Victor, Colo........20
Oct21W Frank Childs, LA.....................12
Oct31W George Gardner, San Fransisco..20
Dec5 W.F Fred Russell, LA...................8

Quite a bit to be excited about here. The six round draw with Childs on Jan 17, the Ed Johnson, the March 15 fight with Joe Kennedy, Bob White, Jim Scanlan (possibly this is a refernce to the 1901 contest, however), the 13 round Ko of Klondyke (these two met a couple of times so this is a possible misprint), Billy Stift (as Klondyke) fights are all unlisted.

A lot of this is going to need a second look, and some horrible piss ant cross referencing, obviously, but thoughts so far?

I am on a business trip, but the ring results are just that. Johnson wasn't a serious contender until the sun set on Fitzsimmons and Corbett.

When I first started reviewing records with a fine toothed comb, I was surprised that Choynski, Klondike, Hart and Griffin got the better of Johnson, but McVey, Langford and Jeannette could not.

The truth is this. Choynski, Hart, Klondike, and Griffin were not green fighters, they were not old fighters, and they were more or less close in size to Johnson. And, Johnson lost to each of these men because unlike Langford they were not 156 pounds. Unlike McVey they were not teenagers, and unlike Jeanette they were not a raw novice with a losing or .500 record.

Does anyone disagree or agree with the above statements?

In my opinion Johnson began to come into his own around 1906-1907. Much has been made about Choynski showing Johnson a thing or two about boxing when they were in jail. While this is true, the things Choysnki showed Johnson did not help his results for the next few years.

I tend to think Johnson put it all together and developed John Ruiz like jab and clinch style, mixed in with a very good uppercut. Johnson said he learned the upper cut from Griffin. This " new style " limited Johnson's chances of being Ko'd by the bigger punchers since his chin vs hitters who actually landed punches was suspect. It also took advantage of his strength.

Here something to re-seaarch. Do reports on Johnson pre Marvin Hart speak of excessive clinching? The ones I read suggest more action.

Joe Choynski did not fight like John Ruiz. Choynski used quick used movement and a left hook.

[janitor]

[quote=Mendoza;4859000]I am on a business trip, but the ring results are just that. Johnson wasn't a serious contender until the sun set on Fitzsimmons and Corbett.


Such sources as I have seen suggest that Johnson was seen as a serious contender after he beat George Gardiner. Going into the fight Gardiner was a slight favourite.


When I first started reviewing records with a fine toothed comb, I was surprised that Choynski, Klondike, Hart and Griffin got the better of Johnson, but McVey, Langford and Jeannette could not.

The truth is this. Choynski, Hart, Klondike, and Griffin were not green fighters, they were not old fighters, and they were more or less close in size to Johnson. And, Johnson lost to each of these men because unlike Langford they were not 156 pounds. Unlike McVey they were not teenagers, and unlike Jeanette they were not a raw novice with a losing or .500 record.

Does anyone disagree or agree with the above statements?


I absolutely disagree.

I think that Johnson simply didn't come into his best untill the period after the Gardiner fight.

I also think that even the green versions opf the black dynamite group were a class above Hains and Griffin, and possibly Hart also.


I tend to think Johnson put it all together and developed John Ruiz like jab and clinch style, mixed in with a very good uppercut. Johnson said he learned the upper cut from Griffin. This " new style " limited Johnson's chances of being Ko'd by the bigger punchers since his chin vs hitters who actually landed punches was suspect. It also took advantage of his strength.

Here something to re-seaarch. Do reports on Johnson pre Marvin Hart speak of excessive clinching? The ones I read suggest more action.


I think the Ruiz analogy is horible.

Firstly the fights where Johnson clincehs a lot were all against much smaller oponents. Against larger oponents he boxes and moves more and holds less.

Secondly Johnson never employed a jab and grab style like Ruiz to avoid fighting. He did a lot of fighting in the clinches and employed holds in a verry different manner to Ruiz.

[mattdonnellon]

Choynski was an old fighter in boxing terms and several years past his best, Martin, McVea and Jeannette were as big as Choynsky, Klondike and Griffin and Hart. Langford was small and light but he wasn't green.
I too have been surprised by Johnson's set-backs but there is no obvious pattern. But make no mistake by the time he was beating Childs and Martin he was a serious contender. Kennedy, Russel, Griffin, Gardner etc were fringe contenders.

[mcvey]

Just how impressive is Johnson's early career?

The original source is The Palestine Daily Herald, a Texas paper, July 5 1910. The paper is going over Johnson's early career, picking out his kep wins as part of the aftermath of the new champion's victory over Jeffries:

After [beating Charley Brooks] Johnson did not want for fights. He cleaned up the best of the darkies in the black belt, among his early victories being a knockout of Horace Miles in three rounds

Boxrec lists "no data" for Horace Miles.

Crossing this reference with The Washington Herald's issue of Monday July 4 1910, the fight is referenced again - a win in three rounds over Horace Miles in 1901. Infuriatingly, there is no date for the fight. Interesting that The Palestine regards this as one of Johnson's early wins, over a fighter of note but boxrec has nothing on him. I thought perhaps he fought the later part of his career under a different name, but Johnson's record for 1901 shows no third round Ko, probably ruling this out. In fact, Johnson's record for 1901 is suspiciously sparse:

Jim Scanlon (draw in 7), 14th January
Joe Choynski (L KO3) 25th Febuary
Billy Stift (draw 10) 26th April
Hank Griffen (LPTS 20) 4th November
Hang Griffen (Draw 15) 27th December


The Palestine again:

...Then George Lawlor, an Irish giant, who fought under the name of Jim McArmick.

The Washington Herald lists fights with this supposed giant, two back to back wins, also in 1901, but has no record of the 10 round decision. Boxrec shows no fighter named McArmick who fought over this year, but it DOES show a George Lawlor listed at 6'3 who weighed in at 180 for a 1900 fight with Tommy Ryan (LTKO13). If it's the same guy, that's quite an impressive scalp I think, though it might not be the same guy.

What do you think so far? Do you think these fights took place? Johnson is basically doing nothing for 7 months in 1901 which doesn't strike as very likely. The Palestine again:

...In between his fights with McArmick, Johnson defeated Jack Lee.

Not on boxrec. The Washington Herald lists Johnson as fighting a John Lee at around this time, a win over 10 rounds on points. Obviously I got the phone book looking for this guy, but I can't find a John or Jack Lee active in 1901 on boxrec, though I may have gone video blind at this point.



Boxrec has Johnson going 7-0-1 in 1902.

The Palestine: 1902 was the big one for Johnson. He was the principle in 16 contests, not losing one and having four draws.

Unfortunately, The Palestine does not put it's finger on any fights that boxrec does not list, concentrating on Johnson's "playing with" Jack Jeffries. But, and I think this is a bit exciting, The Washington Herald lists 16 fights for Johnson in 1902. I'll put it up word for word here:


Jan 17--D. Frank Childs, Chicago........6
K. Dan Murphy, Waterbury.....10
K. Ed. Johnson, Galveston......4
Mar 7--Joe Kennedy, Oakland...........4
Mar 15K Joe Kennedy, San Fransisco...4
W Bob White..........................15
W Jim Scanlan........................17
May 16k Jack Jeffries, LA..................5
K Klondyke, Memphis...............13
D Billy Stift, Denver..................10
Jun 20D Hank Griffin, LA.....................20
D Hank Griffin, LA.....................15
W Pete Everett, Victor, Colo........20
Oct21W Frank Childs, LA.....................12
Oct31W George Gardner, San Fransisco..20
Dec5 W.F Fred Russell, LA...................8

Quite a bit to be excited about here. The six round draw with Childs on Jan 17, the Ed Johnson, the March 15 fight with Joe Kennedy, Bob White, Jim Scanlan (possibly this is a refernce to the 1901 contest, however), the 13 round Ko of Klondyke (these two met a couple of times so this is a possible misprint), Billy Stift (as Klondyke) fights are all unlisted.

A lot of this is going to need a second look, and some horrible piss ant cross referencing, obviously, but thoughts so far?

Just caught your post ,I have been in Brussels.
I have the following.
1895 Dave Pierson w Galveston.
1895 Bob Thompson l dec 4 Galveston.
1896.Howard Pollar w Galveston.
1897.Jim Rocks w ko4 Galveston.
1897.Sam Smith,w dec10 Galveston.
1898.Reddy Bremer,wko3 Galveston.
1898.Jim Cole wdec4 Galveston.
1898.Henry Smith.d 15 Galveston.
1899 Feb11th Jim McCormick d 7 Galveston
1899 March17 th JimMcCormick w dsq7 Galveston
1899.May6th Klondike lko5 Chicago

1899 Dec16th Pat Smith d 12 Galveston
1900 Josh Smith wdec12 Memphis
I have 118 fights listed for Johnson to Box rec's 102.
My source is "In the Ring And Out".
The ring record was compiled by Gilbert Odd ,it's Editor.
With the following comment.
"The records of earlier fighters ring activities are allways obscure and notoriously difficult to compile.
In the days before sophisticated,PR techniques,and complex tax considerations,a boxer customarily fought scores ,even hundreds of poorly documented contests,-sometimes two , or three on the same day- at both ends of a noteworthy career..
The following is the result of many years of research and is probably the most accurate and complete record of Jack Johnson ever published.
If you want all those listed Mac, I will try and up load them .

I have Horace Miles down as having fought Johnson in 1901 a ko win for Johnson in 3 rds, the fight in Galveston.

I have three fights with Griffin in 1902 .All draws

June20 10 rds Los Angeles
July 4th 20 rds Los Angeles
Sept ? 20rds Los Angeles.

I have an addtional Kennedy fight, a week after there Mar7th 4rdko win for Johnson,which took place in Oakland.
I have Johnson koing Kennedy on Mar 15th in San Francisco.

The Jim Scanlan fight was on May 1st a 7rd ko for Johnson.

ps Johnson gave two boxing exhibitions in Rosherville Gardens ,in Kent, opposite where my girlfriend lives now.
I HAVE NO AGENDA HERE NOR DESIRE TO ENGAGE IN A DISPUTE WITH A CERTAIN MEMBER,. WHO SHALL BE NAMELESS

[McGrain]

I am on a business trip,.

Just caught your post ,I have been in Brussels.



:think

[McGrain]

When I first started reviewing records with a fine toothed comb,

Anything on these fights in particular Mendoza? The ones listed above?

I was surprised that Choynski, Klondike, Hart and Griffin got the better of Johnson, but McVey, Langford and Jeannette could not.

Well there are years between the Klondike and Choynski setbacks and McVey/Langford/Jeannette, most of all the year of 1902, where the above suggests that Johnson went undefeated that year, seen as a feat by the writer of the Washington article.


In my opinion Johnson began to come into his own around 1906-1907. Much has been made about Choynski showing Johnson a thing or two about boxing when they were in jail. While this is true, the things Choysnki showed Johnson did not help his results for the next few years.

Why do you say that? Johnson loses twice between 1902 and 1915 according to boxrec, which seems to come up short on how many fights Johnson actually had, and one of those losses was by DQ. Whether or not Choynski was the reason, 1902 appears to have been a big year.

[McGrain]

Such sources as I have seen suggest that Johnson was seen as a serious contender after he beat George Gardiner.

The Washington article I referenced in the opening post has Johnson calling out Jeffries after the first McVey fight of '03 and Jeffries "drawing the colour line".

[McGrain]

If you want all those listed Mac, i will try and up load them


What would be really good chum, would be if you could compare the 16 fights i've got listed in the opening post for 1902 with your list, and see what the differences/similarities are.

Also, if there are any dates for any of the fights listed in that post which currently don't have dates?

That would be champion, chum.

[janitor]

The Washington article I referenced in the opening post has Johnson calling out Jeffries after the first McVey fight of '03 and Jeffries "drawing the colour line".

I think there is a refference to him calling out Jeffries after he won the coloured heavyweigh title from Denver Ed Martin.

Prety standard practice after you won that particular title.

[mcvey]

:think

We are actually Man and Wife.:oops:

[mattdonnellon]

My research would suggest it is dangerous to accept secondary sources for these fights as they seem to be a hotch-potch of his early career with the fights all jumbled up. i am sure Jack had a load more fights than these listed but dont see his legacy greatly effected either way by these fights, from late 1901 on he was defeating good class opponents easily in general.

[McGrain]

We are actually Man and Wife.:oops:

:lol:

My research would suggest it is dangerous to accept secondary sources for these fights as they seem to be a hotch-potch of his early career with the fights all jumbled up..

Absolutely. I think there is no way to proceed without a primary source, which I haven't been able to put my paw on.

[mattdonnellon]

We are actually Man and Wife.:oops:

Who's da man?

[McGrain]

Who's da man?

:lol:

My thread. This particular conversation stops HERE.

[mcvey]

What would be really good chum, would be if you could compare the 16 fights i've got listed in the opening post for 1902 with your list, and see what the differences/similarities are.

Also, if there are any dates for any of the fights listed in that post which currently don't have dates?

That would be champion, chum.

1902
April 6th Bob White
May 1st Jim Scanlan wko 7rds Pittsburgh.
May 28th Klondike
June 4th Billy Stift.
July 4th Hank Griffin LA
Sep 3rd Pete Everett.

[McGrain]

1902
April 6th Bob White
May 1st Jim Scanlan wko 7rds Pittsburgh.
May 28th Klondike
June 4th Billy Stift.
July 4th Hank Griffin LA
Sep 3rd Pete Everett.


Good man :good

[mattdonnellon]

JACK JOHNSON'S RECORD. (newzeland paper 1915)

Following is Jack Johnson'e record iSqq— Lost to Klondike five rounds. 1901i — Beat John Lee, 15 rounds; J. K. McCormack, seven rounds; J. K. McCoranack ; seven rounds ; knocked out Chas. Brooks, two rounds; Horace Mills, three rounds; George Lawler, 10 rounds ; lost to. Joe Choyisky, three rounds, a knock-out; drew with' Klondike, 20 rounds. 1902 — Beat Bob White, 15 rounds; Jim Scanlan, seven rounds ; Peter Everitt, 20 rounds; Frank. Childs, 12 rounds; George Gardiner, 20 rounds lost on foul to Fred. Russell, eight) rounds; knocked out Dan Murphy ,10 rounds; Ed Johnson, ,-four rounds; Joe Kennedy, four rounds ; JacK. Jeffries, five rounds; Klondike, 13 rounds ; drew with Frank Childs, six rounds; beat Billy Stift, 10 rounds, Hank Griffen, 20 rounds; Hank Griffen, i5 rounds.

[McGrain]

That's a third secondary source indicating additional fights in 1902.

Still nothing additional on the second Kennedy fight though.

What was the name of the paper matt?

[mcvey]

Mcarmick is probably Jim Mc Cormick(or McCormack) and if my memory is correct Lawlor fought in the Texas area. My guess is these fights happened but I'll try a little checking.

I have the following.
1899.Feb11th Jim McCormick d 7rds Galveston [ note the 7rds,what happened?]
1899 Mar 17th Jim McCormick w dsq 7rds Galveston .

1901.May 6th Jim McCormick w ko 2 rds Galveston
1901.May 28th JimMcCormick w ko 2rds Galveston.


1901 George Lawler w ko 10rds Galveston.

[McGrain]

I have the following.
1899.Feb11th Jim McCormick d 7rds Galveston [ note the 7rds,what happened?]
1899 Mar 17th Jim McCormick w dsq 7rds Galvestonton.

The Palestine Daily Herald just has him "beating McCormick twice over seven rounds", whether this was the agreed distance or by stoppage is not clear.

[Mendoza]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza [Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
I am on a business trip, but the ring results are just that. Johnson wasn't a serious contender until the sun set on Fitzsimmons and Corbett.

Janitor says : Such sources as I have seen suggest that Johnson was seen as a serious contender after he beat George Gardiner. Going into the fight Gardiner was a slight favourite.

And in 1902 Johnson wasn't in line to get a title shot anytime soon.


Quote:
When I first started reviewing records with a fine toothed comb, I was surprised that Choynski, Klondike, Hart and Griffin got the better of Johnson, but McVey, Langford and Jeannette could not.

The truth is this. Choynski, Hart, Klondike, and Griffin were not green fighters, they were not old fighters, and they were more or less close in size to Johnson. And, Johnson lost to each of these men because unlike Langford they were not 156 pounds. Unlike McVey they were not teenagers, and unlike Jeanette they were not a raw novice with a losing or .500 record.

Does anyone disagree or agree with the above statements?
Janitor says: I absolutely disagree.

What do you disagree on?.

1 ) That Johnson when matched vs men with some talent near equal to him in ability and size struggled and was defeated prior to 1906?

2 ) That Langford was small when he meet Johnson, Jeanette was a novice .500 fighter, or McVey was a teenager?

or 3 ) That Johnson clinched a lot, like Ruiz did.

Sorry Janitor, the above are accurate.


Janitor says: I think that Johnson simply didn't come into his best untill the period after the Gardiner fight.

Agree, but I think he came into his own around the 1906-1907 period.

Janitor says : I also think that even the green versions opf the black dynamite group were a class above Hains and Griffin, and possibly Hart also.


No way. You simply can not explain the losses of Jeanette and even Langford ( at heavyweight ) to lesser types. Griffin, Choynski, and Hart as mature fighters were better than Langford at 156 pounds, or Jeanette with a losing or .500 record. You could argue McVey, but he was only a teenager.

Quote:
I tend to think Johnson put it all together and developed John Ruiz like jab and clinch style, mixed in with a very good uppercut. Johnson said he learned the upper cut from Griffin. This " new style " limited Johnson's chances of being Ko'd by the bigger punchers since his chin vs hitters who actually landed punches was suspect. It also took advantage of his strength.

Here something to re-seaarch. Do reports on Johnson pre Marvin Hart speak of excessive clinching? The ones I read suggest more action.
Janitor says : I think the Ruiz analogy is horible.

Firstly the fights where Johnson clincehs a lot were all against much smaller oponents. Against larger oponents he boxes and moves more and holds less.

Secondly Johnson never employed a jab and grab style like Ruiz to avoid fighting. He did a lot of fighting in the clinches and employed holds in a verry different manner to Ruiz.

Ruiz didn't clinch much vs bigger men/stronger men. He did it vs guys his size. Johnson wasn't a fool. He knew he couldn't clinch Willard much. While Ruiz jabed and grabbed, Johnson grabbed, then used in uppercuts via some hitting and holding. Neither Johnson or Ruiz were volume punchers, and both could be boring to watch at time. There are some similarities here.

[mcvey]

According to Tad Dorgan ,of the San Francisco Bulletin and New York Journal, Johnson, got the fight with Gardner like this.
"The first time I ever saw Jack Johnson was in 1901, when he was acting as a sparring partner for Kid Carter,the LHvy from Brooklyn,Carter at that time was training for a fight with George Gardner, in San Francisco. He was training at Croll's gardens in Alameda,across the bay from the big town.

Johnson at the time was a tall happy go lucky young fellow who would rather tell jokes than box.
The news paper boys use to sit around and listen to him spin yarns after each work out.
On the Sunday before the fight ,a delegation of sporting men from Frisco,headed by Jim Coffroth,the promoter ,visited Carter's camp to give him the up and down.
After the usual gym training ,Carter put the gloves on for a 4 round work out with Johnson.In the 3rd of the affair, Johnson hit the boss a little harder than a sparring partner is supposed to,sock his paymaster,and Carter got mad.
"Trying to show me up eh?"He growled.he lowered his head and tore into Johnson.
"I'll show you who the boss is around here ,he added".
Carter did his best to knock Johnson stiff,but instead of showing the tall coloured felow up,,he was shown up himself,and only for Promoter Coffroth ,who stopped the bout when Carter was groggy and all inthe big card might have been a flop.
Coming home on the boat that evening the sports talked more about Johnson than they did about Carter.
They were sure that a new big man who could fight, had arrived
Gardner beat Carter in the big fight and Johnson the unknown was then given a chance with Gardner.He gave the Boston Lhvy a pasting,and from then on was a main eventer for Coffroth's shows.
That was Johnson's start in the city,by the Golden Gate.
After that Johnson beat every man he was sent against.He lost a decision to Marvin Hart,but that was never taken seriously."

Jack Dempsey described Dorgan like this."He is the greatest authority on boxing"

[mattdonnellon]

That's a third secondary source indicating additional fights in 1902.

Still nothing additional on the second Kennedy fight though.

What was the name of the paper matt?
Grey River Argus April 10,1915
Also in Hawera & Normanby Star, 5 July 1910 (NZ paper)

[GPater11093]

just remembered this thread and wanted to bump it

I think that Lawlor is the guy Johnson fought as Johnson also fought in Texas.