When do you think Ali should have called it quits?

[mr. magoo]

My pick would have been after the Thrilla in Manilla. Had he retired after this bout and never returned, I think his legacy would have been in even more stable condition than it actually turned out. His later bouts with Norton, Shavers, Spinks, Evangelista, Holmes and Berbick were not necessary in my opinion. Although he would have retired with less money and without the bragging rights to a three time championship, he still would have left the ring in higher state of grace after facing Joe for the third time.

He also might have saved his health.

[Raggamuffin]

I think he should have stopped after he regained the title from "Neon" Leon Spinks. IMO all the fights after that only seemed to hasten his Parkinsons, it couldn't been prevented

[Holmes' Jab]

Either immediately after the Rumble..., or at the latest after Norton III.

[mr. magoo]

I think he should have stopped after he regained the title from "Neon" Leon Spinks. IMO all the fights after that only seemed to hasten his Parkinsons, it couldn't been prevented

Medical research has pointed to the theory that head trauma is not a cause of Parkinson's syndrome. Therefore, there is no way of knowing for sure exactly how much of Ali's condition is related to the longterm effects of boxing. I can't help but thinking however, that it certainly didn't help him any to take a lot of those shots. As for your statement regarding him retiring after Spinks, I'll agree that the Holmes and Berbick fights were unnecessary, but I also don't think that he needed to fight Norton, Spinks, Shavers or Young either.

[Sweet Science]

My pick would have been after the Thrilla in Manilla. Had he retired after this bout and never returned, I think his legacy would have been in even more stable condition than it actually turned out. His later bouts with Norton, Shavers, Spinks, Evangelista, Holmes and Berbick were not necessary in my opinion. Although he would have retired with less money and without the bragging rights to a three time championship, he still would have left the ring in higher state of grace after facing Joe for the third time.

He also might have saved his health.

In terms of having the best possible legacy, I agree with you he should have retired after Manilla. But in terms of preserving his health (possibly) and thinking of his quality of life after boxing then after Zaire would have been the correct time. However, although his health might have been better, this would have been at the expense of his legacy as we would't have seen him exact revenge on Frazier.

[Raggamuffin]

You know that every fighter needs to get beat big time in order to get it into his head that it's quits for him
Ali was no different

[mr. magoo]

In terms of having the best possible legacy, I agree with you he should have retired after Manilla. But in terms of preserving his health (possibly) and thinking of his quality of life after boxing then after Zaire would have been the correct time. However, although his health might have been better, this would have been at the expense of his legacy as we would't have seen him exact revenge on Frazier.

True,

When we look at his legacy subjectively as it actually stands, Ali's best wins were Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Liston, Patterson, Ellis and Quarry. Had he retired after Thrilla or even sooner after the Rumble, The list would have been exactly the same, minus a couple rematches. I also don't think that regaining the heavyweight title a third time, did his legacy much good, given that he had to lose to Leon Spinks in order to do it.

[SchweitzerMan]

I think he should have stopped after the second Spinks fight.

[mr. magoo]

You know that every fighter needs to get beat big time in order to get it into his head that it's quits for him
Ali was no different

Most definately,

and had it not been for the terrible losses to Holmes and Berbick, I have no doubts that Ali would have attempted to carry his career well into the 80's. We likely would have seen him against the likes of guys like Tillis, Cobb, Snipes, Cummings and a few others. Hell, we might even have seen a 4th match with Joe Frazier around 1981 or so.

[DamonD]

Shavers fight.

He won that one but took some horrible shots (especially to the body) to do so, a real 'won the battle but lost the war' (or at least greatly contributed to it) outcome in my eyes.

That would've been enough for me. The Neon Leon fights don't really add much to his resume for me, no matter how nice that 3-time HW champ title sounds.

[Duodenum]

Ali quit after Berbick because that was when he discovered what Ortiz discovered against Buchanan; that his hand-eye coordination and reflexes had irretrievably deserted him, something which no degree of training and conditioning can restore once lost. (Unlike Ali of course, Ortiz was in top physical condition for Buchanan, as always.)

To establish the best possible legacy, it could be argued that Manila was the best time to conclude his career. 1975 may have been the greatest calendar year ever produced by a defending HW Champion.

He did produce two more key historical moments though. Against Shavers, he demonstrated an all-time chin. Although there is supposed to be no glory in taking a punch, much of Earnie's reputation for ultimate power stems from Ali's unequivocal declaration on camera that Shavers was the hardest puncher he was ever hit by.

In becoming the first three time heavyweight champion, he demonstrated that he could still dance for 15 rounds (albeit ponderously now), and win 11-4 against an amazing and youthful athlete. Still, his career after Manila was largely an anticlimactic footnote, which embellished Shavers' reputation for striking force more than anything else.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I think he should have stopped after he regained the title from "Neon" Leon Spinks. IMO all the fights after that only seemed to hasten his Parkinsons, it couldn't been prevented



Ali sounded punchy in 1979.

[mcvey]

My pick would have been after the Thrilla in Manilla. Had he retired after this bout and never returned, I think his legacy would have been in even more stable condition than it actually turned out. His later bouts with Norton, Shavers, Spinks, Evangelista, Holmes and Berbick were not necessary in my opinion. Although he would have retired with less money and without the bragging rights to a three time championship, he still would have left the ring in higher state of grace after facing Joe for the third time.

He also might have saved his health.
Certainly "The Thrilla",should have been his last ,imo.

[Robbi]

Ali sounded punchy in 1979.

Just before his rematch with Spinks he looked as if he had been smoking dope. I have an interview just before the fight, and you can see it in his eyes. Obviously not on dope, the early signs of parkinsons in my opinion. Pugilistic Parkinsons to be precise.

[ChrisPontius]

Legacy-wise: After the Shavers fight.

Regaining the championship for the third time was not worth losing to Leon Spinks.


Health-wise: After beating Foreman or at its latest, after Manilla.

[Robbi]

9Nb9BYGWsIY

Howard even tells Ali, "you sound tired"

[MrSmall]

Oh, Manilla.

[janitor]

Legacy-wise: After the Shavers fight.

Regaining the championship for the third time was not worth losing to Leon Spinks.


Health-wise: After beating Foreman or at its latest, after Manilla.

That is my take.

To be honest I wish more great fighters were like like Rocky Marciano and left on top with their health even if it knocke 10% off their legacy.

[ChrisPontius]

9Nb9BYGWsIY

Howard even tells Ali, "you sound tired"

He looks and sounds horrible there. Compare that to the wild man he was a mere six years earlier. I thought he already seemed to have lost a gear on the Dick Cavett show in 1975.

[brooklyn1550]

After the 3rd Frazier fight, and if not then, most certainly after the 2nd Spinks fight.

[buzzsaw]

The Rock was way before my time but he seems to be the only one who left on top of his game. Ali was the most recognizable person in the world during the 70's and I think he just couldn't let go. I agree with others and would have liked to have seen him stop for good after Spinks II.

[TBooze]

With hindsight he shhould of stayed retired in 1967

Realistically after Foreman in 1974, legacy wise (and kind pf helping health wise) he should of left it no later than the Thrilla...

But here is a thought:

Ali came to London in 1986 to help hype Whitherspoon/Bruno... He went to train with Witherspoon and rumours were abound of another comeback!:scaredas:

(Rumour courtesy of the rather excellent Muhammad Ali: The unseen archives (page 350))

[Street Lethal]

After regaining his title for an unprecedented third time (a record that remains standing to this day).

[Chaney]

I have given this matter a great deal of thought over the years, and read widely on the subject.

For the sake of his health, Ali should have retired after Zaire. If you care for Ali as a person as well as a fighter, that is the sane exit point. It would still be a truly amazing career, and Ali would still have left the sport a rich man.

If you are a diehard boxing fan who wants to see one of the great clashes of ring titans, then you could be excused for wanting to see Ali - Frazier III. It no doubt took a great toll on Ali's health ("I felt close to death", said Ali) but it was also Ali's final great performance.

Anybody saying Ali should have fought on after Manilla has either not studied Ali's drastic decline as a fighter from that point on, or is heartless enough to want to see meaningless fights at the expense of a great mans health.

[Chaney]

Ali's fights after Manilla, and why they add practically zero to Ali's legacy:

Jean-Pierre Coopman: Ali KOs a nice man, but a terrible boxer in an absolutely meaningless fight. Zero added to Ali's legacy.

Jimmy Young: Ali looked really terrible here; slow, overweight and out of shape. Young would have won with a more aggressive attitude. Zero added to Ali's legacy.

Richard Dunn: Ali scores his final knock out against another poor quality opponent. There is so little interest in this pointless fight that Ali literally has to pay for two thousand tickets to be given away so the stadium doesn't look so empty. Zero added to Ali's legacy.

Ken Norton: Ali now back in shape, and so has no excuse for his clearly diminishing skills. Few combinations thrown by Ali. He still manages to give Norton a tough fight and steal a win, but most see the fight as rightfully belonging to Norton. Very little, if anything added to Ali's legacy.

Alfredo Evangilista: Ali wins a boring, pointless bout against very low quality opposition. Zero added to Ali's legacy.

Earnie Shavers: Ali narrowly beats a dangerous contender, not so much with boxing skills but with every ounce of guts, bluff and ringcraft a rapidly fading warrior can muster. Ali takes a horrific beating in the process from one of boxings heaviest hitters. It adds to Ali's legacy for (yet again) proving his durability and courage...but people in the know see that victory is at far too heavy a cost. Ali's physician, Ferdie Pacheco leaves the Ali camp; his conscience preventing him from being party to any more beatings. Teddy Brenner, the matchmaker at Madison Square Garden publically announces he will never sanction another Ali bout (for fears about Ali's health)

Leon Spinks: Ali loses the title to a mediocre novice with only seven fights worth of professional experience. This greatly damages Ali's legacy.

Leon Spinks II: Ali wins a poor fight against a troubled, partying, hard-drinking, drug taking, recently arrested 'champion' who's hardly trained at all. Ali has trained hard, but his skills have eroded further. The key factor to Ali winning is that Spinks goes into the fight with nothing. Zero added to Ali's legacy.

Larry Holmes and Trevor Berbick: You guys don't need me to explain why these two fights detract from Ali's legacy, do you?

So, that is my definitive account as to why Ali should have quit after Manilla at the very latest. Does anyone disagree with my analysis?

[mr. magoo]

Ali's fights after Manilla, and why they add practically zero to Ali's legacy:

Jean-Pierre Coopman: Ali KOs a nice man, but a terrible boxer in an absolutely meaningless fight. Zero added to Ali's legacy.

Jimmy Young: Ali looked really terrible here; slow, overweight and out of shape. Young would have won with a more aggressive attitude. Zero added to Ali's legacy.

Richard Dunn: Ali scores his final knock out against another poor quality opponent. There is so little interest in this pointless fight that Ali literally has to pay for two thousand tickets to be given away so the stadium doesn't look so empty. Zero added to Ali's legacy.

Ken Norton: Ali now back in shape, and so has no excuse for his clearly diminishing skills. Few combinations thrown by Ali. He still manages to give Norton a tough fight and steal a win, but most see the fight as rightfully belonging to Norton. Very little, if anything added to Ali's legacy.

Alfredo Evangilista: Ali wins a boring, pointless bout against very low quality opposition. Zero added to Ali's legacy.

Earnie Shavers: Ali narrowly beats a dangerous contender, not so much with boxing skills but with every ounce of guts, bluff and ringcraft a rapidly fading warrior can muster. Ali takes a horrific beating in the process from one of boxings heaviest hitters. It adds to Ali's legacy for (yet again) proving his durability and courage...but people in the know see that victory is at far too heavy a cost. Ali's physician, Ferdie Pacheco leaves the Ali camp; his conscience preventing him from being party to any more beatings. Teddy Brenner, the matchmaker at Madison Square Garden publically announces he will never sanction another Ali bout (for fears about Ali's health)

Leon Spinks: Ali loses the title to a mediocre novice with only seven fights worth of professional experience. This greatly damages Ali's legacy.

Leon Spinks II: Ali wins a poor fight against a troubled, partying, hard-drinking, drug taking, recently arrested 'champion' who's hardly trained at all. Ali has trained hard, but his skills have eroded further. The key factor to Ali winning is that Spinks goes into the fight with nothing. Zero added to Ali's legacy.

Larry Holmes and Trevor Berbick: You guys don't need me to explain why these two fights detract from Ali's legacy, do you?

So, that is my definitive account as to why Ali should have quit after Manilla at the very latest. Does anyone disagree with my analysis?

I agree completely,

At the begining of this thread, I listed the "Thrilla" as the last great performance of Ali's career, and the point in which he should have hung them up.

[apollack]

Completely agree Chaney. I do though, think that Ali needed Frazier III to seal the deal on his legacy. Otherwise he'd be 1-1 with Frazier. Having that last great battle and winning on a tko helped him get that super duper respect. AFter that fight he most certainly should have retired, but like a lot of champions (such as Holyfield today) they simply cannot get boxing out of their system. It is who they are and they don't know how to exist without it.

[jbrunner3]

I agree with many here, who say after Manila. I just watched that whole fight recently and was reminded of its ridiculous brutality. It was a gutsy, skillful win against a quality and worthy opponent in Frazier. Ali was an old 33 at point and didn't need to take one more punch. His record would have been 49-2.

[Blacc Jesus]

Ali sounded punchy in 1979.
'78, IMO.

[ironchamp]

I think he should have called it quits after Shavers.

[Chaney]

I think he should have called it quits after Shavers.Please justify this in light of my analysis. Anybody who cares about Ali as a human being, rather than a money making attraction, would not want to see him fight on after Manilla...never mind take all that terrible punishment from Shavers.

Use your imagination...imagine Ali today with much of his health intact: What a character and an asset we would have! Why do you want to see harm done to the shell of a once great fighter, with each blow further scrambling Ali's brains?

I repeat...legacy wise, nothing is gained by Ali after Manilla. Health wise, it is a catastrophe.

[Duodenum]

Please justify this in light of my analysis. Anybody who cares about Ali as a human being, rather than a money making attraction, would not want to see him fight on after Manilla...never mind take all that terrible punishment from Shavers.

Use your imagination...imagine Ali today with much of his health intact: What a character and an asset we would have! Why do you want to see harm done to the shell of a once great fighter, with each blow further scrambling Ali's brains?

I repeat...legacy wise, nothing is gained by Ali after Manilla. Health wise, it is a catastrophe.After I submitted my first post to this thread, I reviewed Ali/Spinks II in it's entirety. Although it was a remarkable display of conditioning and prolonged footwork over the 15 round distance, he no longer had the timing or accuracy of his better earlier wins. I haven't watched Ali/Shavers from beginning to end, but I'm beginning to wonder if Manila was indeed the proper showing with which to end his career.

[groove]

After Manila. And it is pretty certain to say that Ali is now ill cuz of the punches he took in the last few years. He took too many doing that rope-a-dope. A peak Ali didn't need to do that - it worked against Foreman but was a big disadvantage against other fighters like Frazier and Norton.

[Duodenum]

After Manila. And it is pretty certain to say that Ali is now ill cuz of the punches he took in the last few years. He took too many doing that rope-a-dope. A peak Ali didn't need to do that - it worked against Foreman but was a big disadvantage against other fighters like Frazier and Norton.I've always had my reservations about punches taken in adulthood as a causative factor in all such situations. It seems to me that the sparring and competition during an unskilled childhood, when the developing brain is being subjected to repeated blows, may be more responsible in such situations.

The Quarrys, Benitez and Ali all took up boxing before or right at the onset of puberty. Those who made a mature informed decision to take up boxing on their own initiative seem to have fared much better, despite participating in far more sparring and competitive situations.

Archie Moore, Ron Lyle, Ken Norton, Larry Holmes, Marvin Hagler and Emile Griffith didn't seem to have any difficulties in this regard, perhaps because their brains had more fully matured physically before they laced on the gloves. (Willie Pep has been described as having died from complications of pugilistica dementia, but he was also 84 years old, and functional well into his 70s, so I don't necessarily buy pugilistica dementia as a causative factor in his decline. Plenty of that age who never boxed fall victim to the same condition. The difficulties Griffith is having now are due to being mugged by thugs in a back alley.)

Now this is not to say that Ali did not pay a substantial price for the punishment he took later in his career, but that if he'd taken up boxing at 19, instead of 12, he might be in far better condition today. Children with developing brains should not be getting routinely punched in the head, and it often seems that the later somebody takes up boxing, the later in life they can continue a longer career.

[Chaney]

After I submitted my first post to this thread, I reviewed Ali/Spinks II in it's entirety. Although it was a remarkable display of conditioning and prolonged footwork over the 15 round distance, he no longer had the timing or accuracy of his better earlier wins. I haven't watched Ali/Shavers from beginning to end, but I'm beginning to wonder if Manila was indeed the proper showing with which to end his career.I'm glad you're reviewing the facts and moving toward the same conclusion I reached.

Ali beat Spinks because Spinks was completely off the rails, non-stop drug fuelled partying, run-ins with the law and had done perhaps just 10 days of training at most. Spinks lost the rematch more than Ali won it.

As for Shavers, it was more Ali the performer than Ali the fighter. He outsmarted rather than outfought Shavers. Ali was clowning for the audience and conning Shavers (who was worried about tiring too early) out of going for the kill. Sure, Ali showed amazing courage and durability...but he had done that dozens of times already.

Shavers was the last time we saw even a glimmer of what Ali once was, and the price paid in punishment was far too high.

Manilla was the last time we saw the real Ali, the magnificent warrior. This was the final get out point...to be honest, it was probably one gruelling fight too many.

[Chaney]

Duodendum: interesting thoughts on the damage a young boxers brain suffers. Some food for thought there. Thanks for sharing.

It is also the case with Ali that he took a remarkable amount of uneccessary punishment in sparring sessions. (remember, a headguard cannot protect the brain) He would lay on the ropes and let powerful punchers tee off on him round after round. A 22 year old Tim Witherspoon recalled getting in his share of heavy shots to Ali's head (when Ali was training for the Holmes fight) during sparring.

[Duodenum]

Duodendum: interesting thoughts on the damage a young boxers brain suffers. Some food for thought there. Thanks for sharing.

It is also the case with Ali that he took a remarkable amount of uneccessary punishment in sparring sessions. (remember, a headguard cannot protect the brain) He would lay on the ropes and let powerful punchers tee off on him round after round. A 22 year old Tim Witherspoon recalled getting in his share of heavy shots to Ali's head (when Ali was training for the Holmes fight) during sparring.Far from a headguard not being able to protect the brain, wearing one might actually undermine the emphasis placed upon actively defending it against punches.

Abe Attell slammed Dempsey's use of headgear in sparring, claiming that wearing one would supplant the effort put into parrying a jab away from the head, resulting in one lazily allowing himself to simply absorb the pop. It's widely believed in some circles, that it's not the impact of a few hard punches that lead to serious head injury, but the accumulative effect of taking many smaller impacts over an extended period of time.

The reasoning behind Attell's criticism of Dempsey's headgear use became apparent in Jack's losing efforts against Tunney. Although Gene only got three or four clean shots at Dempsey in 20 rounds of combat, Jack was wholly dependent on his ability to slip Tunney's jabs, not using his right to defensively parry or redirect the impact of Tunney's relentless stabbing. This is what led to his decision to retire. Dempsey was afraid of losing his eyesight, a risk brought on by his failure to actively parry Tunney's jabs in a proactive fashion.

Against Max Baer, the well-schooled Louis put on a clinic in how to swipe away a jab with a defensively held right. In Jack Blackburn's day, mouthguards and headgear were not used in training, and that was part of the orientation Blackburn used in tutoring Louis (although Joe did use modern protective equipment in training). Defense is a much underrated part of the Bomber's boxing method, and 80% of the right hand's job should be to defend, not attack.

What headgear can actually do is safeguard against cuts, due to a clash of heads particularly. Some designs also protect the nose. But nobody should have the mistaken belief that headgear protects the brain, and ought not to proceed with the assumption that it has any value in this particular respect.

[Chaney]

More great info, thanks Duo.

I guess the bottom line is that gloves and headgear decrease the risk of superficial injury, cuts, etc, but increase the risk of serious brain injury. A padded head is also a bigger target to hit, and a padded glove allows you to hit harder without such a big risk of hand injury.

By cleaning up the sport, the Marquis of Queensbury made it more dangerous.

[Titan1]

My pick would have been after the Thrilla in Manilla. Had he retired after this bout and never returned, I think his legacy would have been in even more stable condition than it actually turned out. His later bouts with Norton, Shavers, Spinks, Evangelista, Holmes and Berbick were not necessary in my opinion. Although he would have retired with less money and without the bragging rights to a three time championship, he still would have left the ring in higher state of grace after facing Joe for the third time.

He also might have saved his health.


:good

[Mendoza]

When do you think Ali should have called it quits?

After winning back the title from Leon Spinks.

[TIGEREDGE]

the rubber match with JF

[JIm Broughton]

Manilla definitely. To retire after winning one of the greatest bouts in HW history would have been a classy way to cap off a fantastic career. The fights he had after that did nothing to enhance his legend.

[Dempsey1238]

We cant go back and change history. What happen happen.

[TBooze]

We cant go back and change history. What happen happen.

But you can spin and rewrite it.;)

[Drew101]

Thrilla in Manila would have been the optimal time. At absolute lastest, I'd say after his fight with Shavers, by virtue of the fact that this was really the last fight where he displayed any of the ability that had made him such a great fighter. If he retires after producing the effort that he gave in the fifteenth and final round, then that, too, would have been an acceptable way to go out.

[Dempsey1238]

yeah I see a lot of rewritting history on this site.

Marciano duck Liston.
Ali is a saint, and God like in the Ring.
Foreman can blast any one outside of Ali in 3 rounds or less.
Jeff could not complete in the 1920's and up. And was near his prime for the Johnson fight.
Liston had to wait 9 long years for a title shot. Relly it was about 3 or 2 at the most.
Patterson is a top ten heavyweight. The guy was a poor champ imo.
Ingo was a bum, good or decent figher, no bum. And with his right hand, could upset about any one. As he show vs Machen.
Prime Tyson would beat Holyfiled, or Tyson was pass his prime vs Douglas.

[anut]

after ali frazier 3.........there was no point.:smoke:smoke:smoke:smoke

[RoccoMarciano]

Before his fights with Frazier. I think those are the ones that did the most damage.

[mr. magoo]

Before his fights with Frazier. I think those are the ones that did the most damage.

So basically you're saying that the guy shouldn't even have returned to the sport after being banned for 3 1/2 years? That he should have retired permanantely in his late 20's?

[mr. magoo]

yeah I see a lot of rewritting history on this site.

Marciano duck Liston.
Ali is a saint, and God like in the Ring.
Foreman can blast any one outside of Ali in 3 rounds or less.
Jeff could not complete in the 1920's and up. And was near his prime for the Johnson fight.
Liston had to wait 9 long years for a title shot. Relly it was about 3 or 2 at the most.
Patterson is a top ten heavyweight. The guy was a poor champ imo.
Ingo was a bum, good or decent figher, no bum. And with his right hand, could upset about any one. As he show vs Machen.
Prime Tyson would beat Holyfiled, or Tyson was pass his prime vs Douglas.

This is the only one that I disagree with. Patterson was an all time great in my opinion. The rest of the nonsense I concur with. There certainly are a lot of myths and historical revisionism on ESB.

[RoccoMarciano]

So basically you're saying that the guy shouldn't even have returned to the sport after being banned for 3 1/2 years? That he should have retired permanantely in his late 20's?

Yep, that's exactly what I'm typing. Would have taken a lot away from him being "The Greatest" now wouldn't have it?

[mr. magoo]

Yep, that's exactly what I'm typing. Would have taken a lot away from him being "The Greatest" now wouldn't have it?

I don't particularly think that its necessary to derprive Ali of his opportunity to prove himself against Frazier. I think the Frazier fights were Ok for Ali to engage in, but after 1975 ( Thrilla in Manila) he should have hung em' up.

[RoccoMarciano]

I don't particularly think that its necessary to derprive Ali of his opportunity to prove himself against Frazier. I think the Frazier fights were Ok for Ali to engage in, but after 1975 ( Thrilla in Manila) he should have hung em' up.

Good thinking. I rate Ali in my top 3, BTW :)

[RoccoMarciano]

WTF, who in the hell is deram?

[ThinBlack]

Ali should have retired immediately after the Thrilla in Manilla, which would have saved him the embarrassment of Spinks, Young, and Inoki.

[Dempsey1238]

This is the only one that I disagree with. Patterson was an all time great in my opinion. The rest of the nonsense I concur with. There certainly are a lot of myths and historical revisionism on ESB.

Patterson was a poor champ. For the 5 or 6 years as champ. he FAILED to face top contenders Eddie Machen and Zolly Folly. Even waited a while for Liston. But he goes on and defends the title vs the likes of what:? Jackson?? Rademacher(In his first pro fight) Over hype Roy Harris,. I mean geez, how many times are we suppose to let Patterson slid here?? I mean I see on the fourms day in and day out, that Marciano was over hype ete. And if he lost he would not be a great champ.

But than they turn around and say Patterson was a great champ. Sure he didnt need to face the best of his divsion. But still a great champ. I see a lot of praise in regards to Patterson. Mostly on the ClayII hype machine for Ali. Because if Patterson is a great champ. Than Ali beating Patterson would be a great champ. No I dont buy it.

What parts Patterson from ATG or truly great champs was he FAILED to face the number 1 guys of his era.

[Stickandmove]

I don't particularly think that its necessary to derprive Ali of his opportunity to prove himself against Frazier. I think the Frazier fights were Ok for Ali to engage in, but after 1975 ( Thrilla in Manila) he should have hung em' up.

Did Ali need to prove himself against Frazier when it was 1-1 head to head? No. Ali proved himself 'the greatest' by beating Foreman. He should have retired and refused to face Norton or Frazier unless they beat Foreman.

[mr. magoo]

Did Ali need to prove himself against Frazier when it was 1-1 head to head? No. Ali proved himself 'the greatest' by beating Foreman. He should have retired and refused to face Norton or Frazier unless they beat Foreman.

I agree with the general flo of what you're saying, except I think that there was high public demand to see a rubber match between Ali and Frazier. I myself, don't particularly think that it was necessary as Ali was clearly the better of the two at that point, but I think fan interest is what dictated their third meeting.

[mdmuir]

I just re-watched (or should I say re-winced at and recoiled in horror) the Ali-Holmes fight. I know it has been said many times before, but I was amazed by the respect and restraint shown by Holmes in that disaster. That could have been a horrifically brutal beatdown leading to a death (it was bad enough with Holmes using restraint). In fact, I was still waiting for Ali to collapse in death even though I knew otherwise-that is how disturbing that spectacle was for me.

[mr. magoo]

I just re-watched (or should I say re-winced at and recoiled in horror) the Ali-Holmes fight. I know it has been said many times before, but I was amazed by the respect and restraint shown by Holmes in that disaster. That could have been a horrifically brutal beatdown leading to a death (it was bad enough with Holmes using restraint). In fact, I was still waiting for Ali to collapse in death even though I knew otherwise-that is how disturbing that spectacle was for me.

It was indeed one of boxing's saddest moments. Although, there have been numerous ring deaths that were far more tragic. I'm not exactly sure why that fight was staged. I don't think that there was a particularly high demand from the public for it, and incidently, neither man received anywhere near the size purse that they were promised ( courtesy if Don King ). I find it hard to believe that Ali really believed that he could recapture the crown, especially with his current health condition and knowledge of how formidable Holmes was from sparring with him.

[janitor]

It was indeed one of boxing's saddest moments. Although, there have been numerous ring deaths that were far more tragic. I'm not exactly sure why that fight was staged.

And yet people still criticize champions like Marciano and Lewis for getting out of the game with their brains still intact.

[My dinner with Conteh]

yeah I see a lot of rewritting history on this site.

Marciano duck Liston.
Ali is a saint, and God like in the Ring.
Foreman can blast any one outside of Ali in 3 rounds or less.
Jeff could not complete in the 1920's and up. And was near his prime for the Johnson fight.
Liston had to wait 9 long years for a title shot. Relly it was about 3 or 2 at the most.
Patterson is a top ten heavyweight. The guy was a poor champ imo.
Ingo was a bum, good or decent figher, no bum. And with his right hand, could upset about any one. As he show vs Machen.
Prime Tyson would beat Holyfiled, or Tyson was pass his prime vs Douglas.



Mostly good points there. I agree about Patterson...another myth is that he was ahead on points against Ali in their second fight. I've quashed it about five times now, I'm sure I'll have to again. :roll:

[TBooze]

And yet people still criticize champions like Marciano and Lewis for getting out of the game with their brains still intact.

Probably because there is a tradition of excellent champions losing their championship badly when way past their best, and it narks our class, that someone is smart enough to call it quits early. I think people have a go at Tunney and Lewis because they seem aloof of the working class values of the sport, which may be a bit unfair, particularly to Lewis.

[rodney]

The Holmes and Berbick fiths were not necessary.

[Simon Euan-Smit]

I think Ali should have quit no later than the Shaver fight. After losing the 13th and 14th sessions he came back with a tremendous effort and won the 15th - and that should have stood as the last great round of his career. He would have still got the verdict - albeit only a majority - even if he'd lost the 15th on all cards, but it was a great finale and deserved to sign off his career. I don't think the Spinks fights did much for his legacy, and they ruined Spinks - after winning the world title so early in his career he could never go back to being an ordinary fighter, and he never got the chance to develop at his own pace.

[SgrRyLeonard]

The Thrilla in Manilla would have been the right time. Go out with a great win over a fellow All time great in an epic battle.

[anut]

after the manilla fight

[Addie]

Even if Ali got our after Manilla he'd still be the greatest by a country mile, so I say after Manilla.

[torchkit]

It (Holmes-Ali) was indeed one of boxing's saddest moments. Although, there have been numerous ring deaths that were far more tragic. I'm not exactly sure why that fight was staged. I don't think that there was a particularly high demand from the public for it, and incidently, neither man received anywhere near the size purse that they were promised ( courtesy if Don King ). I find it hard to believe that Ali really believed that he could recapture the crown, especially with his current health condition and knowledge of how formidable Holmes was from sparring with him.

"His behind will be mine by round nine."
---Ali (before the fight)

"I lied."
---Ali (after the fight)

[BUDW]

No later than Foreman.

[SteveO]

Medical research has pointed to the theory that head trauma is not a cause of Parkinson's syndrome. Therefore, there is no way of knowing for sure exactly how much of Ali's condition is related to the longterm effects of boxing. I can't help but thinking however, that it certainly didn't help him any to take a lot of those shots. As for your statement regarding him retiring after Spinks, I'll agree that the Holmes and Berbick fights were unnecessary, but I also don't think that he needed to fight Norton, Spinks, Shavers or Young either.

I've seen research that indicates trauma does lead to Parkinson's.

Either way, after beating Joe or Kenny for the 3rd time, there wasn't much else to prove.

[Holmes' Jab]

My pick would have been after the Thrilla in Manilla. Had he retired after this bout and never returned, I think his legacy would have been in even more stable condition than it actually turned out. His later bouts with Norton, Shavers, Spinks, Evangelista, Holmes and Berbick were not necessary in my opinion. Although he would have retired with less money and without the bragging rights to a three time championship, he still would have left the ring in higher state of grace after facing Joe for the third time.

He also might have saved his health.

Fair points, I think that's a decent shout. After the Spinks rematch at the very latest.

[Sonny's jab]

To guarantee his health, I think he should never have come back in 1970.
He'd be undefeated, a phenomenon, and an enigma.
We'd still think he was amazing.

As far as legacy goes, certainly nothing after Manila adds anything to his standing, IMO. In fact, some of those fights ( Coopman, Evangelista, Young, Dunn, Spinks etc.) possibly hurt his reputation.

So, 1967 or 1975.

1967's better though, because the guy would still be able to talk and walk properly.

[Simon Euan-Smit]

I think Ali should have quit no later than the Shaver fight. After losing the 13th and 14th sessions he came back with a tremendous effort and won the 15th - and that should have stood as the last great round of his career. He would have still got the verdict - albeit only a majority - even if he'd lost the 15th on all cards, but it was a great finale and deserved to sign off his career. I don't think the Spinks fights did much for his legacy, and they ruined Spinks - after winning the world title so early in his career he could never go back to being an ordinary fighter, and he never got the chance to develop at his own pace.

P.S. - I made a mistake in the above, which lots of people will have picked up - Ali would still won a unanimous decision over Shaver even if he'd lost the 15th. Scores in rounds would have been 8-7, 8-7, 8-6-1.

[freelaw]

Imagine Ali not coming back after he was banned... Frazier wins a title and seems invincible. Ali hardly ever shows himself in public now, speaks not much and (if at all) with respect about Joe and others in general.

It seems that he has matured. He seems not interested in coming back. He becomes a living legend. He's unbeaten. People wonder how would he manage against Frazier, or did Liston take a dive in their fight etc. There's noone more enigmatic in boxing. Once so loud and arrogant, now so humble and mysterious.

Frazier looses his title against Foreman in the fashion he did in reality.

Ali comes back for just one fight... and pulls the upset in the fashion that he really did... then retires permanently.

That would give him a hell of a legacy, wouldn't it?;)

And it would let him to keep his health probably.

[Addie]

Imagine Ali not coming back after he was banned... Frazier wins a title and seems invincible. Ali hardly ever shows himself in public now, speaks not much and (if at all) with respect about Joe and others in general.

It seems that he has matured. He seems not interested in coming back. He becomes a living legend. He's unbeaten. People wonder how would he manage against Frazier, or did Liston take a dive in their fight etc. There's noone more enigmatic in boxing. Once so loud and arrogant, now so humble and mysterious.

Frazier looses his title against Foreman in the fashion he did in reality.

Ali comes back for just one fight... and pulls the upset in the fashion that he really did... then retires permanently.

That would give him a hell of a legacy, wouldn't it?;)

And it would let him to keep his health probably.

Ali's legacy is one of the best in boxing history, and your suggestion would have resulted in a lesser one in my opinion.

The people that detract Ali's victory over Norton and his ones over Shavers, and the so called bad performances he put in. It's all bullshit. All of those fights came way after the man's prime, and he still found a way to win. Floyd Mayweather was never a great spectacle, and this is in his prime, but nobody criticises him. Also, people saying Ali got lots of gift decisions is bullshit. A gift is when you get the decision after being clearly beaten. Ali was only ever clearly beaten against Frazier 1, Spinks 1, Norton 1, and those two horrific fights when he was a zombie: Berbice and Holmes. All of those fights he lossed, but he came back to do Frazier 2 -1 and Norton 2 - 1 and beat Leon too. Come on now guys, the guy avenged every single loss he ever was delt, except for Holmes and Berbick, a time in which I could have beaten Ali. The man's legacy is ridicliously good, and people who don't see that are retarded.

[freelaw]

Ali's legacy is one of the best in boxing history, and your suggestion would have resulted in a lesser one in my opinion.

The people that detract Ali's victory over Norton and his ones over Shavers, and the so called bad performances he put in. It's all bullshit. All of those fights came way after the man's prime, and he still found a way to win. Floyd Mayweather was never a great spectacle, and this is in his prime, but nobody criticises him. Also, people saying Ali got lots of gift decisions is bullshit. A gift is when you get the decision after being clearly beaten. Ali was only ever clearly beaten against Frazier 1, Spinks 1, Norton 1, and those two horrific fights when he was a zombie: Berbice and Holmes. All of those fights he lossed, but he came back to do Frazier 2 -1 and Norton 2 - 1 and beat Leon too. Come on now guys, the guy avenged every single loss he ever was delt, except for Holmes and Berbick, a time in which I could have beaten Ali. The man's legacy is ridicliously good, and people who don't see that are retarded.

Dude, I don't question Ali's legacy as a fighter. It's probably, as you said, one of the best in history. I just made up a story in which he is more worth of being called a legend and a role model that he is in reality IMO (not that in reality he's not worth of it at all).

In my story he gets mature and stops being so narcisistic and lacking of self critisism. He doesn't focus on calling himself "the greatest" every time he opens his mouth. He doesn't care that much about it any more. He respects people and doesn't think he's any better than for example Joe Frazier. He doesn't risk his health that much too.

The part about not coming back until challenging Foreman, then retiring is ofcourse a pure fantasy that just feels very impressive, but I'm serious about what I wrote in this very post. IMO Ali wasn't as great human being as people in general seem to think about him.

In real life I think he should quit the latest after "The thrilla in Manila". I guess that when he felt he was close to death, he should take it as a sign to call it a career.