to put holyfields greatness in perspective...

[Illmatic]

he won his first title 21 years ago...against a hall of famer!

he was unified/undisputed champion 19 years ago...!


and hes fighting for a heavyweight title soon

[kirk]

it really is mind boggling and impressive

[Illmatic]

it really is mind boggling and impressive

yes it is....I was 1 year old when Holy won his first title.

[kirk]

Me too... LOL! that is just crazy.... good thread.

[Amsterdam]

Good post Illmatic, Holyfield naysayers are among the worst. Holyfield was about as old school in the modern times as you can possibly get.

Not to mention, he holds some of the best victories within the modern times.

[Piffer]

...and he became an undisputed champion in his 12th pro fight

[SteveO]

And maybe he'll keep going and going.

[Theo]

i was 9, good fighter. ;)

[MagnificentMatt]

Hes already best Cruiserweight ever. Top 10, HW.. If he beats sultan hes top 5 no doubt imo...I mean, he was beast when hes young, 20 some odd years ago, and hes still a beast, i dotn wanna hear shit about the HW division, Holy has looked good, most people say speed goes first, well, he has his speed in his mid 40s, and is doing well.. He is also one of the most entertaining athletes the sport has ever seen. Besides being one of the best..

[BigReg]

The only problem with Holyfield is his strong link to performance enhancing drugs. Years ago Holmes said this guy was only able to fight at heavweight because of the juice. Now strong evidence is starting to come out. Holyfield is an exciting fighter. However, his alleged reliance on steroids and HGH cannot be ignored.

[nervousxtian]

I don't think most people dispute his legacy, but the post-Ruiz (including the Ruiz fights) era of Holyfield has been unspectacular at best. I guess you give him credit for hanging around and beatings some C-level guys even at his age, and he is fighting a B-level champ.

I think a lot of us will start really believing that Holy can pull off one more big fight.. but in our heart of hearts we know that even a guy like Sultan will probably beat down, dismantle, and probably humliate Evander.

[Illmatic]

and what fighter has he NOT fought?

[brooklyn1550]

You could make a case that Holyfield is among the top 20 fighters ever. The guy has won so many world titles, beaten so many excellent fighters including some great ones. His toughness and heart cannot be questioned. Truly a pleasure to watch.

[Hank]

He had great carreer, especially considering Olympics, but he lost to many times in title fights. 2 of 3 to Bowe, and the loss to Moorer rule him out as al time great, but he is up there. Long career is amazing, but guy is nuts.
He should have retired after Moorer loss. In prime he does not lose to Moorer, or fall apart against James Toney.

[brooklyn1550]

He had great carreer, especially considering Olympics, but he lost to many times in title fights. 2 of 3 to Bowe, and the loss to Moorer rule him out as al time great, but he is up there. Long career is amazing, but guy is nuts.
He should have retired after Moorer loss. In prime he does not lose to Moorer, or fall apart against James Toney.

How do his losses rule him out from being an all time great? In that case, Sam Langford, Harry Greb, Jack Johnson, Sugar Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong, and Roberto Duran aren't all time greats. The fact of the matter is that Evander Holyfield defeated Mike Tyson twice, Riddick Bowe, George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Michael Moorer, Dwight Qawi twice, Carlos De Leon and champions like Ruiz, Rahman, Thomas, Dokes, Ocasio, Czyz, Douglas, etc. A 4-time heavyweight champion and an undisputed heavyweight champion, combined with the fighters he faced, the fighters he beat, and the heart he showed certainly make Holyfield an all time great.

[El Bombasto]

great cruiserweight, good heavyweight

[brooklyn1550]

great cruiserweight, good heavyweight

:nono Great cruiserweight, great heavyweight

[El Bombasto]

:nono Great cruiserweight, great heavyweight

okay, make your case...

[brooklyn1550]

okay, make your case...

It all depends on your individual definition and criteria of greatness, but here it goes...

Holyfield, at heavyweight, was the undisputed champion and in all, won the or a title 4 times. He defeated 3 future hall of famers (Mike Tyson twice, George Foreman, and Larry Holmes), potentially 4 (if you count Riddick Bowe which I will not). Holyfield beat champions/top contenders such as Hasim Rahman, Pinklon Thomas, John Ruiz, Buster Douglas, Michael Dokes, Bert Cooper, and Ray Mercer.

Make your case...

[Hank]

How do his losses rule him out from being an all time great? In that case, Sam Langford, Harry Greb, Jack Johnson, Sugar Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong, and Roberto Duran aren't all time greats. The fact of the matter is that Evander Holyfield defeated Mike Tyson twice, Riddick Bowe, George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Michael Moorer, Dwight Qawi twice, Carlos De Leon and champions like Ruiz, Rahman, Thomas, Dokes, Ocasio, Czyz, Douglas, etc. A 4-time heavyweight champion and an undisputed heavyweight champion, combined with the fighters he faced, the fighters he beat, and the heart he showed certainly make Holyfield an all time great.

He lost in prime to bowe 2 of 3, Duran and others did not lose in prime, or some mentioned fought 10-20 times a year. John Ruiz? That is not a great win.

[brooklyn1550]

He lost in prime to bowe 2 of 3, Duran and others did not lose in prime, or some mentioned fought 10-20 times a year. John Ruiz? That is not a great win.

Duran lost to Esteban De Jesus in his prime at lightweight.

Other great fighters fought so often because the times were so much different. Many of them had 35-40 losses on their resume, but that doesn't prevent them from being great.

Holyfield has won 7 different world title belts and has been Ring champion in 2 weight classes. His longevity is amazing and so are the high quality of wins on his resume. He has defeated Holmes, Tyson, Foreman, and Qawi (all current or future hall of famers) and Riddick Bowe (who I don't think is a future hall of famer although a case can be made if Jess Willard is in the hall of fame). Holyfield is an ATG - both accomplishment-wise and talent-wise. I can even make a poll to see what the majority of ESB posters think if you want.

[El Bombasto]

It all depends on your individual definition and criteria of greatness, but here it goes...

Holyfield, at heavyweight, was the undisputed champion and in all, won the or a title 4 times. He defeated 3 future hall of famers (Mike Tyson twice, George Foreman, and Larry Holmes), potentially 4 (if you count Riddick Bowe which I will not). Holyfield beat champions/top contenders such as Hasim Rahman, Pinklon Thomas, John Ruiz, Buster Douglas, Michael Dokes, Bert Cooper, and Ray Mercer.

Make your case...

no disrespect intended brooklyn, but i think you have omitted a few key details from your synopsis:

-as a heavyweight, he was unable to hold on to his title for more than 3 defenses. his second 'title reign' ended with his first defense.

-he beat foreman post retirement and at the age of 42, he beat holmes post retirement and also at the age of 42

-he lost 2/3 to bowe, he was 1-1-1 against ruiz (imo no suppossed hofer should ever lose of draw with that piece of crap)

-rahman & douglas were literally one-hit wonders, cooper has record of 36-22

holyfield will be remembered, but only because he's stuck around for so long, and has managed to get himself involved in significant fights. he's the jersey joe walcott of this era

[brooklyn1550]

no disrespect intended brooklyn, but i think you have omitted a few key details from your synopsis:

-as a heavyweight, he was unable to hold on to his title for more than 3 defenses. his second 'title reign' ended with his first defense.

-he beat foreman post retirement and at the age of 42, he beat holmes post retirement and also at the age of 42

-he lost 2/3 to bowe, he was 1-1-1 against ruiz (imo no suppossed hofer should ever lose of draw with that piece of crap)

-rahman & douglas were literally one-hit wonders, cooper has record of 36-22

holyfield will be remembered, but only because he's stuck around for so long, and has managed to get himself involved in significant fights. he's the jersey joe walcott of this era

Obviously we disagree, but you do make some very good points to say otherwise.:good

[ChampionsForever]

Hes a great fighter, but for me there was always a guy out there who had hes number, there was never a time when people thought nobody will beat this guy like other greats in Tyson, Ali, Liston and even Lewis had at some point in their careers, hes inconsistancy let him down a little in the HWs.

[jimmie]

The man holds wins over 11 former Heavyweight titilst thats pretty dam impressive.

[box03]

Holyfield is an amazing Heavywieght who beat the odds when faced against Bowe the 2nd time and Tyson both times, his legacy will be his be based on him fighting the best and his longevity in the sport.

[TheGoldenBoy#1]

Bowe helped those odds by gorging himself instead of training.

That said I consider to be a great heavyweight.

[DamonD]

The man holds wins over 11 former Heavyweight titilst thats pretty dam impressive.
Yes it is.

[Decker]

Good discussion by El Bombasto and brooklyn1550.

How about ATG CWT, near ATG HW? Was 0-2 vs Lewis, unless anybody considers their first fight a draw :verysad That decision :barf

[Hank]

Belt holders and heavyweight champs are 2 different things. John Ruiz was no heavyweight champ. Holyfield had great all around career, but he lost too many in prime, and was not great heavyweight imo. He was always competitive, had guts, was exciting, but at best was not an all time great. If he had fought Tyson before Tyson lost time in prison I think result would have been different.

[thesandman]

I think it depends on your definition of "great"

Cruiser - one if, if not the, best ever.

Heavy - Probably in the top 20/25 of all time.

If you classify top 20 heavyweights great (as I do), then he's a great heavy.

[Illmatic]

name a top heavyweight after 1990 Holy didnt fight...im racking my brain here:

Tyson
Lewis
Moorer
Foreman
Holmes
Bowe
Ruiz
Byrd
Rahman
Dokes


his greatness is unquestionable

[LennoxGOAT]

Wow, people debating Holyfield is anything other than great.

Holyfield was the second best heavyweight post Holmes era. That makes him an ATG.

[KobeIsGod]

Holyfield's greatest strength has been his hubris. Not such much a cockiness, but a belief too overcome any obstacle. You could almost feel and sense it when he fought. Ironically, it might turn out to be his destruction if he steps in the ring with egg-chinned Wald :nut

[Hank]

Wow, people debating Holyfield is anything other than great.

Holyfield was the second best heavyweight post Holmes era. That makes him an ATG.

Who was first best?