Best white boxers?

[MrSmall]

Anyone who isn't BLACK or ASIAN, is where my criteria lies. I don't mean to be racist. Mexicans and puerto ricans who aren't BLACK count here too, don't gimme that latin and hispanic junk.

So give it to me, lads, the best white guys out there. Strangely no heavyweights spring to mind, but a lot of small dudes do.
Give me a top 10 list fellas.

[Duodenum]

Anyone who isn't BLACK or ASIAN, is where my criteria lies. I don't mean to be racist. Mexicans and puerto ricans who aren't BLACK count here too, don't gimme that latin and hispanic junk.

So give it to me, lads, the best white guys out there. Strangely no heavyweights spring to mind, but a lot of small dudes do.
Give me a top 10 list fellas.Are Native Americans also to be excluded from consideration here? Furthermore, Italian's are also Latino's, strictly speaking. Should they also be off the table?

That ethnic and nationalistic pride is an inherent part of the sporting culture cannot be denied, whether in a "positive" or "negative" context. It is what it is, and should be acknowledged as such. This is the Classic Forum, populated with intelligent, thoughtful posters, who will understand how to interpret your question without taking mindless offense.

Concerning ethnicity and nationalism, it's a valid consideration to take into account what the majorities and minorities are in a particular region of the world. These are considerations used to generate revenue, so it would be disingenuous to avoid such questions. (But I say that as a member of a tiny subminority who is indifferent to such issues.)

[janitor]

From an anthropological standpoint there is no such thing as a white person. It is a cultural idea. But on to your question-

The best "white" boxer of all time in terms of resume is in my opinion Harry Greb. Perhaps the greatest boxer of all time.

Other names that deserve consideration include Dutch Sam, Bob Fitzsimmons, Terry McGovern, Benny Leonard, Jimmy Wilde, Mickey Walker, Willie Pep.

I guess none of these guys are out there though.

[Maxmomer]

Tunney, Loughran, Schmeling.

[janitor]

What about Barney Ross?

My apologies.

If I listed all the names who needed to be mentioned I would be here a long time.

[janitor]

Well, okay let´s limit this to 10-15 names. What would be your choices?

Dutch Sam,
Jimmy Barry,
Bob Fitzsimmons,
Tommy Ryan
Terry McGovern,
Benny Leonard,
Jimmy Wilde,
Mickey Walker,
Barney Ross,
Willie Pep,

[cross_trainer]

On average, 20% of "black" Americans' genes are northern European. Proportions vary according to the individual--Muhammad Ali, for instance, probably had a great deal of northern European DNA. Jimmy Ellis as well, in addition to many others.

Should we consider "black" Americans white (as they do in many African countries), black (as they do in America), or do it on a case-by-case basis?

[Street Lethal]

It's a racist thread. Snuff it.

[brooklyn1550]

Harry Greb
Willie Pep
Benny Leonard
Barney Ross
Gene Tunney
Mickey Walker
Rocky Marciano
Jimmy Wilde
Tommy Loughran
Terry McGovern
Bob Fitzsimmons
Billy Conn
Abe Attell
Maxie Rosenbloom

[cross_trainer]

It's a racist thread. Snuff it.

Not racist so much as impossible to categorize. As Janitor says, "race" doesn't exist. Human genetics are a constant continuum from one set of traits to another.

[Street Lethal]

Not racist so much as impossible to categorize. As Janitor says, "race" doesn't exist. Human genetics are a constant continuum from one set of traits to another.
Race exists whether it's genetics or not, because society categorizes people based on skin color and so on, and they were doing that long before they even knew what genetics was.

Asking who is the greatest white fighter is an instance of racial thinking that reflects the standard sort of run-of-the-mill racism. That's my point. I think threads like this are terrible.

It's okay to ask who is the greatest Japanese fighter, but it is racist to ask who is the greatest Asian fighter.

So I agree with you and Janitor about race, but don't think that changes the character of this thread.

[cross_trainer]

Race exists whether it's genetics or not, because society categorizes people based on skin color and so on, and they were doing that long before they even knew what genetics was.

Asking who is the greatest white fighter is an instance of racial thinking that reflects the standard sort of run-of-the-mill racism. That's my point. I think threads like this are terrible.

It's okay to ask who is the greatest Japanese fighter, but it is racist to ask who is the greatest Asian fighter.

So I agree with you and Janitor about race, but don't think that changes the character of this thread.

Fair enough, although I'd consider "best Asian fighter" to be more of a geographical question unless it referred to Asians as a race.

In any event, I don't think it's possible to delete this thread, since "great white hopes" and similar silliness have always existed in boxing.

[Duodenum]

Not racist so much as impossible to categorize. As Janitor says, "race" doesn't exist. Human genetics are a constant continuum from one set of traits to another.There are congenital genetic diseases and which effect Hebrews (specifically Ashkenaki Jews), and sickle cell anemia, which effects primarily people of African ancestry, but also those of Mediterranean and Middle Eastern descent. (This is an issue which concern those who share my lineage.) Sickle cell anemia is a biological adaptation which protects against malaria in Africa, but is a liability in malaria-free America. Likewise, freckle faced redheads would be at a more significant risk for skin cancer in equatorial regions. There is overlap, but one either has the gene for cystic fibrosis or not. (My best friend was born with the CF gene. CF is most common among Europeans and Ashkenaki Jews.)

Within a boxing context however, this is a bit harder to pin down. Ali played up the notion of himself having an Irish ancestry to the hilt, when he took on Blue Lewis in Dublin.

[dmille]

112
Jimmy Wilde
Fidel LaBarba
Frankie Genaro
Johnny Coulon
Benny Lynch

118
Terry McGovern
Harry Jeffra
Pete Herman
Owen Moran

126
Willie Pep
Freddie Miller
Johnny Dundee
Abe Attell
Battling Battalino
Johnny Kilbane

135
Benny Leonard
Barney Ross
Tony Canzoneri

147
Mickey Walker
Carmen Basilio
Tommy Ryan

160
Harry Greb
Stanley Ketchel
Bob Fitzsimmons
Jake LaMotta
Marcel Cerdan

175
Billy Conn
Tommy Loughran
Maxie Rosenbloom

HW
Jack Dempsey
Gene Tunney
Rocky Marciano

[Bummy Davis]

Calzaghe, Kessler, Klitschko, De La Hoya, Hatton, Bute, Povetkim, Malianggi, Pavlik, Lee, Duddy, Diaconu

:good good list

[Bummy Davis]

For Boxing Abilty Dont Leave Out Irish Joey Archer

[mr. magoo]

Steve Zouski is the best white fighter of all time. No need to even make a list.

[Bad_Intentions]

Calzaghe, Kessler, Klitschko, De La Hoya, Hatton, Bute, Povetkim, Malianggi, Pavlik, Lee, Duddy, Diaconude la hoya is not white.

[brooklyn1550]

Steve Zouski is the best white fighter of all time. No need to even make a list.

:lol: Steve was a nice guy. I worked with him once on a roof in Brockton when I was an amateur. Both of us trained with Goody and Pat.

[Street Lethal]

Fair enough, although I'd consider "best Asian fighter" to be more of a geographical question unless it referred to Asians as a race.

In any event, I don't think it's possible to delete this thread, since "great white hopes" and similar silliness have always existed in boxing.
I know. I wasn't really thinking we should. I was just trying to find a dramatic protest. Snuff it came out.

You can see where it went, though. Now people are arguing over whether de la Hoya is white.

For their information, people who believe in race and blood and all that bullshit say that white Hispanic is white. Hispanic is ethnic not racial. Good example is Ricky Ricardo. So de la Hoya is white.

[Bad_Intentions]

De La Hoya has a lot of spanish blood. His mother was very light skinned. Oscar seems to have taken after her more than his dad. His dad has the more aztec look - darker skin. The Spanish, Basque, Irish, Scotch, Welsh are related. They are celtic people. Of course the Moors were in Spain centuries ago which is why you see a lot of more swarthy Spanish with black hair and olive skin. Also, the black Irish (Irish people with dark hair) could have roots from Spain as thousands of sailors from the Spanish armada stayed and hid in Ireland from the British. I don't consider Italians to be latino as Dudenum pointed out. I am 1/2 Italian myself and I always thought of Italians as white europeans. Not that there is anything wrong with being latino of course.even if he's mixed with spanish blood or any european blood, many whites from america label him as hispanic, and not WHITE.

[MrSmall]

I should have said light-skinned.
Anyway.
It's strange - people either rate the good fighters of today up there, or pre-60.

[janitor]

Thext up is a thread on who were the greatest fighters with ginger hair.

[McGrain]

Thext up is a thread on who were the greatest fighters with ginger hair.

There can be only one.

Dmille, nice list but you left of Fritzie Zivic.

[mcvey]

Thext up is a thread on who were the greatest fighters with ginger hair.
BOB FITZSIMMONS TAKES THIS ONE!



Using the posters criteria Greb
Pep
Leonard
Wilde
Loughran
Conn
Jofre
Duran
Fitzsimmons
Dempsey
Ross
Walker
Ketchel
Canzoneri
Driscoll
Attell
Lynch
Mclarnin
Mcgovern
Griffo
Ryan

[Bad_Intentions]

You are absolutely right.and according to major historians, spain was controlled by the moors (african-muslims) for 700 years.. so you know lol :)

[Street Lethal]

even if he's mixed with spanish blood or any european blood, many whites from america label him as hispanic, and not WHITE.
Are you an American? Because in America, de la Hoya is a white Hispanic, which means that while racially he's white, ethnically he's Hispanic.

You are confusing race and ethnicity, Bad Intentions. White Hispanics are white, nonwhite Hispanics are black.

[Cobra33]

Paul Spadafora
Ken Buchanan
Brian Mitchell
Barney Ross
Benny Leonard
Clarence Adams
Lou Ambers
Greg Haugen

[Jersey Joe]

1 Duran
2 Leonard
3 Monzon
4 Marciano
5 Greb
6 Tunney
7 Pep
8 Chavez
9 Dempsey
10 Wilde

[Jersey Joe]

De La Hoya has a lot of spanish blood. His mother was very light skinned. Oscar seems to have taken after her more than his dad. His dad has the more aztec look - darker skin. The Spanish, Basque, Irish, Scotch, Welsh are related. They are celtic people. Of course the Moors were in Spain centuries ago which is why you see a lot of more swarthy Spanish with black hair and olive skin. Also, the black Irish (Irish people with dark hair) could have roots from Spain as thousands of sailors from the Spanish armada stayed and hid in Ireland from the British. I don't consider Italians to be latino as Dudenum pointed out. I am 1/2 Italian myself and I always thought of Italians as white europeans. Not that there is anything wrong with being latino of course.

Latino means Latin, the language of the ROmans i.e. Italians.

Same with "hispanic" - from Spain.

I don't know too many people who think Spanish & Italian people are not white.

Anyway, this just goes to show how silly the whole racial categories are. Joe Louis had fairly light skin and yet he's called "black". That tells me either everyone in America suffers from colour-blindness, or that people are more obsessed with totally artificial categories than how someone actually looks.

[Jersey Joe]

Race exists whether it's genetics or not, because society categorizes people based on skin color and so on, and they were doing that long before they even knew what genetics was.

Asking who is the greatest white fighter is an instance of racial thinking that reflects the standard sort of run-of-the-mill racism. That's my point. I think threads like this are terrible.

It's okay to ask who is the greatest Japanese fighter, but it is racist to ask who is the greatest Asian fighter.

So I agree with you and Janitor about race, but don't think that changes the character of this thread.
It's no more racist than saying who is the best ginger-haired fighter. Objectively it is pretty silly to categories fighters on the basis of the colour of their skin, or any other random physical appearance, but that's just an offshoot of every society in the world acting in that way. Like it or not, most people do categorise others on objectively irrelevant factors e.g. where you happened to be born, what colour skin you have, what language you speak. With boxing, at least in the older era, it was actually relevant because the US would not allow black or mixed-race fighters to compete on a level playing field.

[Bummy Davis]

De La Hoya has a lot of spanish blood. His mother was very light skinned. Oscar seems to have taken after her more than his dad. His dad has the more aztec look - darker skin. The Spanish, Basque, Irish, Scotch, Welsh are related. They are celtic people. Of course the Moors were in Spain centuries ago which is why you see a lot of more swarthy Spanish with black hair and olive skin. Also, the black Irish (Irish people with dark hair) could have roots from Spain as thousands of sailors from the Spanish armada stayed and hid in Ireland from the British. I don't consider Italians to be latino as Dudenum pointed out. I am 1/2 Italian myself and I always thought of Italians as white europeans. Not that there is anything wrong with being latino of course.


The original Latin tribe comes from Italy (Rome) and the Romans conquered England and were there for 500 years, they also conquered most of the civilized world from northern Africa to the Rhine river of Germany up into the Ukrain, the Greeks and Egyptians were also present in parts of Italy (Sicily) as were the Swabs( German/French) and the Longobards (Germans) the Africans Cartha and Hanibal were from Greek origin and despite his last name Barca he was blond hair and blue eyed African of Greek origin, Spain is white but there dark hair is from the Arab (Northern african) Moors. Europe is a melting pot but the first Latins were from Rome and the English language has a lot of Latin words and roots, ofcource the Spanish traveled to Mexico, Puerto Rico. South America and mixed with the Indians, gave them there religion and language but in Europe it started in Italy

[mr. magoo]

Steve Zouski is the best white HW ever? What about Dave Jaco? Brian Yates? Brian 'Mister' Sargent? Tony LaRosa? Tom Trimm? Bobby Hitz? Or the former chippendales dancer and boxer Jack Basting? Basting fought Andrew Golota in atlantic city in the summer of 1998. Bobby Quarry and Frank Lux deserve mention. How about Ken Lakusta who staggered Big George Foreman for a second in the first round in 1990? Imagine we could have all had Ken Lakusta grills if he had knocked Big George out.

Ken Lakusta is definately a worthy mention. He fought as a kickboxer as well. What's more, he retired with a higher ratio of losses than wins, but hey, the gou fought some of the best in the world right?

[mr. magoo]

You are absolutely right.

No offense Flabby, ( not trying to insult you here just curious ), but why do you have an avator of a male wrestler's ass in spandex?

[JohnThomas1]

No offense Flabby, ( not trying to insult you here just curious ), but why do you have an avator of a male wrestler's ass in spandex?

I think the one underneath is a bit c0ckeyed personally.

[mr. magoo]

I think the one underneath is a bit c0ckeyed personally.

It is a bit repulsive.

Off to the lounge with it.

[Street Lethal]

It's no more racist than saying who is the best ginger-haired fighter. Objectively it is pretty silly to categories fighters on the basis of the colour of their skin, or any other random physical appearance, but that's just an offshoot of every society in the world acting in that way. Like it or not, most people do categorise others on objectively irrelevant factors e.g. where you happened to be born, what colour skin you have, what language you speak. With boxing, at least in the older era, it was actually relevant because the US would not allow black or mixed-race fighters to compete on a level playing field.
If what you say is true then we would see lists like this:

"Best brown-haired boxers?"

"Best boxers with 2,000 or more freckles?"

"Best boxers who have undergone an appendectomy?"

And so forth.

But we don't.

Since we never see such threads, but see instead see threads asking about "best white boxers" your argument is lost.

Sorry.

[JohnThomas1]

It is a bit repulsive.

Off to the lounge with it.

Soon be gone hey, but then again, thooooose guys...

:hey

[mr. magoo]

Soon be gone hey, but then again, thooooose guys...

:hey

Given the homophobic views of many of the lounge participants, I'm sure that avator will be right at home.

[JohnThomas1]

Given the homophobic views of many of the lounge participants, I'm sure that avator will be right at home.

Nasty nasty hahaha

:good

[Irländsk]

Surprised I haven't seen Jerry Quarry mentioned. IMO one of the best heavyweights of the last 40years. Wlad Klitschko, Maccarinelli, Joe Calzaghe, Kessler, Hatton, Povetkin, there are actually too many to list who are currently active. Best ginger boxer is Stevie Collins.

[Manassa]

Ross was THE greatness of all time.

[buzzsaw]

Al White (20-7)
Billy “The Kid” White (14-5)
Charley White (118-38)
Dick White (39-11)
Eddie White (50-38)
Jeff White (26-9)
Jermaine “Too Sweet” White (15-3)
Mickey White (50-14)
Ray “Windmill” White (41-14)
Slugger White (40-12)
Tommy White (65-24)
Tommy “Board of Trade Pet” White (32-8)
Vincent “Boojay” White (13-4)

[Luigi1985]

No offense Flabby, ( not trying to insult you here just curious ), but why do you have an avator of a male wrestler's ass in spandex?


:lol:

[Street Lethal]

Joe Louis is black because in America any black ancestry makes you black. I think Joe was lighter because his mother or some close relative was Cherokee. You point about how silly racial categories are is appreciated. Thanks. Latino means Latin, the language of the ROmans i.e. Italians.

Same with "hispanic" - from Spain.

I don't know too many people who think Spanish & Italian people are not white.

Anyway, this just goes to show how silly the whole racial categories are. Joe Louis had fairly light skin and yet he's called "black". That tells me either everyone in America suffers from colour-blindness, or that people are more obsessed with totally artificial categories than how someone actually looks.

[Duodenum]

Joe Louis is black because in America any black ancestry makes you black. I think Joe was lighter because his mother or some close relative was Cherokee. You point about how silly racial categories are is appreciated. Thanks.In fact, as Jimmy Bivins mentioned in his IBHOF induction speech, Louis was called, "Big Red."

[janitor]

In fact, as Jimmy Bivins mentioned in his IBHOF induction speech, Louis was called, "Big Red."

Louis was Big Red.

He found some native americans squating on his estate once. He rode up to them on his horse and they asumed that he would evict them.

He told them that they would probably be more comfortable staying in a little cottage on his land.

[dmille]

Dmille, nice list but you left of[f] Fritzie Zivic.

NO, I didn't.