Muhammad Ali v Larry Holmes 1975

[Stevie G]

We've made quite a few hypothetical match ups between these two,recently. How about,then if we imagined that Ali had defended his title against an up and coming Holmes in Malaysia circa 1975 instead of Joe Bugner. I feel,as capable as Holmes was at this point,Ali would have had a bit too much left for an upset victory by Larry. Muhammad would have won via a fairly competitive unanimous decision,and because of his gallant showing,the Easton Assassin would have got some big fights earlier than he did in reality.

[PetethePrince]

Ali vs Holmes in 1975? I think Ali handles him as he was basically a sparring partner that Ali knew inside and out. Holmes just left Ali after the Wepner fight in 75.

[Bill Butcher]

We've made quite a few hypothetical match ups between these two,recently. How about,then if we imagined that Ali had defended his title against an up and coming Holmes in Malaysia circa 1975 instead of Joe Bugner. I feel,as capable as Holmes was at this point,Ali would have had a bit too much left for an upset victory by Larry. Muhammad would have won via a fairly competitive unanimous decision,and because of his gallant showing,the Easton Assassin would have got some big fights earlier than he did in reality.

I agree.

Any time after the thrilla in oct 75 tho, Holmes beats him.

[MRBILL]

Ali would still handle Holmes up until Manila............ After Manila, Holmes beats Ali........... The Holmes of 1976 would've and could've beaten any of the dudes like Ali, Foreman & Frazier in '76.............. I am sold on Holmes............... Holmes was held-back by Don King until the smoke was clear for Holmes to fully take over........ King started moving Holmes quickly by late 1977.............. From '78 thru '82, Holmes was in his prime and unbeatable............

MR.BILL

[leverage]

Ali of 75 beats holmes. He still had enough left to beat holmes, still possessing that sneaky, sizzling right hand wich would catch and stun holmes often. This would negate the effectiveness of holmes jab and he would be more hesitant to throw it. Ali would also win most of the exchanges because of superior combination punching. Ali by unanimous decision.

[junior-soprano]

Ali of 75 beats holmes. He still had enough left to beat holmes, still possessing that sneaky, sizzling right hand wich would catch and stun holmes often. This would negate the effectiveness of holmes jab and he would be more hesitant to throw it. Ali would also win most of the exchanges because of superior combination punching. Ali by unanimous decision.

yep that's how it is.
after the thrilla it will be a different story but untill that there was still enough of the old ali left. but a 76/77 or later version of ali will loose.

[rm36]

I favor Holmes in this. Ali had trouble with good jabbers. Look at the Doug Jones fight, and the Ken Norton fight, to see this. When you had a guy who'd extend that jab when Ali pulled back, he could catch him. I think the best version of Ali beats the swarmers and slow slugging types, but still struggles with a mobile and durable boxer with a solid jab. People say Ali knew Holmes style well because they sparred, but doesn't that mean Holmes also knew Ali's style ?

[kenmore]

We've made quite a few hypothetical match ups between these two,recently. How about,then if we imagined that Ali had defended his title against an up and coming Holmes in Malaysia circa 1975 instead of Joe Bugner. I feel,as capable as Holmes was at this point,Ali would have had a bit too much left for an upset victory by Larry. Muhammad would have won via a fairly competitive unanimous decision,and because of his gallant showing,the Easton Assassin would have got some big fights earlier than he did in reality.

In 1975 Holmes was still a far cry from the great fighter he became in 1978. Holmes's physique was still filling out in 1975, and he didn't have the ring polish necessary to threaten Ali just yet.

Ali would have won an easy decision over Holmes in 1975. At best, Larry would have gone the distance with Ali. No more.

[he grant]

It's not just what Ali had left but Holmes lack of experience. The Ali that beat Wepner and Bugner was basically the Ali of Zaire while a 1975 Holmes was still very inexperienced...

[Mendoza]

Holmes said Ali kicked him out of his camp because he was " too fast " for him. While Holmes did lack a resume in 1975, he was in with plenty of talent including Ali in the gym.

[Stevie G]

It's not just what Ali had left but Holmes lack of experience. The Ali that beat Wepner and Bugner was basically the Ali of Zaire while a 1975 Holmes was still very inexperienced...
All of this,I agree with. I forgot to add Holmes's relative inexperience to my scenario. Thanks.

[Rubber Warrior]

Holmes said Ali kicked him out of his camp because he was " too fast " for him. While Holmes did lack a resume in 1975, he was in with plenty of talent including Ali in the gym.

There are several ways this claim from Holmes can be taken. It's very possible that Ali was looking for something else in his sparring as opposed to having to prove he was indeed the king (he was, so why bother going there behind closed doors). It's also possible Ali cut him loose simply based on the fact that the styles he would be facing on the go-forward didn't mesh with the kind of sparring Holmes would further provide. Recognizing the unmistakable talent in Holmes, why further educate the up and comer on his weaknesses when they one day might fight?

A sparring partner shouldn't potentially be your greatest threat, or even necessarily a mirror image.

In any event, Holmes has always been quick and often transparent in the self flattery department.

[Mr Butt]

in 75 it is just a little early for holmes ali gets a close decision win

[clark]

Ali wins. If Holmes starts getting crafty, Ali K.O.'s him.

[Titan1]

Ali would have won a wide UD over 15 rounds over Holmes.Too much experience.Was Holmes even ranked in 1975?

[MagnaNasakki]

Holmes didn't have enough know how.

He'd be thoroughly outboxed.

[reznick]

If they fought in 75, Ali would win


If they fought in 76 Ali would lose, and then win the rematch in 77

[Anh]

I think Ali would scrape it - Holmes lacking some experience at this time where as Ali was reasonably still in fighting shape.

A 78's Holmes would beat him I think.

[Duodenum]

Holmes was 200 for Yarborough in April 1975, and 203 for Rodney Bobick on the Manila undercard. Ali was a physically powerful 225 pound championship round specialist. Muhammad took the fight to the ropes at a defensive Bugner, attacking at a brisk clip in torrid conditions. Larry had never gone past seven rounds at the time of Malaysia. Charlie James finally took him the ten round distance two months after Ali-Bugner II. At no time was Holmes ready to challenge for a title before Shavers I in March 1978.

[Stevie G]

Yet another old thread of mine unearthed ! I definitely feel the honoured one this week :good

[Bokaj]

Holmes was 200 for Yarborough in April 1975, and 203 for Rodney Bobick on the Manila undercard. Ali was a physically powerful 225 pound championship round specialist. Muhammad took the fight to the ropes at a defensive Bugner, attacking at a brisk clip in torrid conditions. Larry had never gone past seven rounds at the time of Malaysia. Charlie James finally took him the ten round distance two months after Ali-Bugner II. At no time was Holmes ready to challenge for a title before Shavers I in March 1978.

This seems pretty reasonable. Ali was the best HW in the world in 1975, Holmes wouldn't beat a world class HW until three years later.

The only reason to think he would even be competitive is his own accounts of how he fared in sparring against Ali. But those are very much his own. There's for example an account in Hauser's book of how Ali spanked Larry in sparring because he had gotten to full of himself. Hard to know if it happened like that, but it should at least be as believable as Holmes' own accounts.

[mister]

holmes wins by unanimous decision,holmes jab is what does the trick ali would be backpeddling all night and with holmes doubling up on his jab he catches ali all night,:think

[Bokaj]

Holmes didn't have enough know how.

He'd be thoroughly outboxed.

This is it really.

[Stevie G]

holmes wins by unanimous decision,holmes jab is what does the trick ali would be backpeddling all night and with holmes doubling up on his jab he catches ali all night,:think
No way does Holmes outbox Ali in 1975.

[tommygun711]

Ali definitely outboxes Holmes, but after 75 its all holmes for a ud

[FastHands(beeb)]

This is a facinating one actually...from the pov of when one fighter overtakes another...in '75 you had Ali still great, Frazier still greater than anyone expected until he proved it in Manila, Foreman shell-shocked after Zaire, Norton gethering momentum after the Foreman shellacking leading to Yankee Stadium...and Holmes learning & ultimately (partly due to Father Time) outlasting them and being the last man standing at the end of the 70s.

Then the sub-plot of the likes of Young, Lyle & Shavers...

Anyway back to topic!

Pre-Manila, Holmes gives Ali a terrifically close fight - maybe slightly controversial - but not quite enough know-how to win on points against an Ali who very rarely saw a close decision go against him (Young & Norton 3 for example). Similar to Holmes-Witherspoon in '83 anyone?

But Holmes, goes into an Ali fight in '75 as a boy...comes out a man...and Ali would know better than to take his chances in a rematch!

[Duodenum]

This seems pretty reasonable. Ali was the best HW in the world in 1975, Holmes wouldn't beat a world class HW until three years later.

The only reason to think he would even be competitive is his own accounts of how he fared in sparring against Ali. But those are very much his own. There's for example an account in Hauser's book of how Ali spanked Larry in sparring because he had gotten too full of himself. Hard to know if it happened like that, but it should at least be as believable as Holmes' own accounts.Considering how Ali typically spent his sparring sessions during this era (or public exhibitions, for that matter), getting accustomed to the experience of taking punches, it surprises me that Holmes would take any credit at all for being competitive in such a situation. Those who shared the ring with Ali in these situations typically knew better. Hauser's account is interesting, because that was a side of the latter day Muhammad not often revealed.

To Larry's credit, he did admit in his book that Ali was much, much weaker in the clinches when they fought in 1980 than he had been while sparring leading up to Kinshasa half a dozen years earlier.

[Bokaj]

Considering how Ali typically spent his sparring sessions during this era (or public exhibitions, for that matter), getting accustomed to the experience of taking punches, it surprises me that Holmes would take any credit at all for being competitive in such a situation. Those who shared the ring with Ali in these situations typically knew better. Hauser's account is interesting, because that was a side of the latter day Muhammad not often revealed.

According to the account, Larry bragged to a reporter that he was a better fighter than Ali. Ali got wind of this and taught Holmes a painful lesson in their next sparring session.

[laxpdx]

I agree with most here, Ali by easy UD.

[Kalasinn]

Ali definitely outboxes Holmes, but after 75 its all holmes for a ud

Agreed.

Ali was still great in '75 & beats a green Holmes, but no way does shot Post-Manila Ali beat him.

[tommygun711]

Agreed.

Ali was still great in '75 & beats a green Holmes, but no way does shot Post-Manila Ali beat him.

Yeah, Holmes would just be way to green.

[anut]

We've made quite a few hypothetical match ups between these two,recently. How about,then if we imagined that Ali had defended his title against an up and coming Holmes in Malaysia circa 1975 instead of Joe Bugner. I feel,as capable as Holmes was at this point,Ali would have had a bit too much left for an upset victory by Larry. Muhammad would have won via a fairly competitive unanimous decision,and because of his gallant showing,the Easton Assassin would have got some big fights earlier than he did in reality.

IN 1975.....LARRY HOLMES FOUGHT RODNEY BOBICK ON THE UNDERCARD OF ALI/FRAZIER 3.....I HAVE THE FIGHT ON DVD......AND IN 1975 HOLMES WAS VERY RAW AND VERY SMALL STILL AT THAT POINT......EVEN HOLMES OF 1977 THAT FOUGHT TOM PRATER WAS NOTHING SPECIAL.............................................. SO IN 1975 NO WAY IN HELL DOES LARRY HOLMES BEAT A PAST PRIME ALI...:smoke

[la-califa]

Ali would still handle Holmes up until Manila............ After Manila, Holmes beats Ali........... The Holmes of 1976 would've and could've beaten any of the dudes like Ali, Foreman & Frazier in '76.............. I am sold on Holmes............... Holmes was held-back by Don King until the smoke was clear for Holmes to fully take over........ King started moving Holmes quickly by late 1977.............. From '78 thru '82, Holmes was in his prime and unbeatable............

MR.BILL
Perhaps your right. but a 76. Norton beats Holmes. in a close decison.