Sonny Liston's resume

[El Radar]

I know how good his skills were but how good was his resume and how does it compare to other top 10 heavyweights? He only defended the title twice, but I was wondering what his level of competition was? Was the late 1950's and 1960's a good era for Heayweights or was it devoid of talent (like todays)? Also did he achieve much after losing twice to Ali?
Thanks a lot

[TheGreatA]

Floyd Patterson, Eddie Machen, Cleveland Williams and Zora Folley were all very good fighters.

Mike DeJohn, Nino Valdes, Roy Harris, Henry Clark, Wayne Bethea, Johnny Summerlin, Marty Marshall, Chuck Wepner were other notable opponents that he beat.

He doesn't have the strongest resume but I think it justifies a top 10 spot.

[essexboy]

Yeah he comes in at #10 for me.

[teeto]

Yeah he comes in at #10 for me.
Same here, i don't mind him being just outside though.

[Flea Man]

When you consider how high people rank Marciano, it'd be unfair not to put Liston in the top 10. I couple resume with overall effectiveness, Liston is a lock for the top ten for me, probably somewhere around no.7/8/9, interchangeable with Holyfield/Tyson. Probably Holy at 7, Liston at 8, Tyson at 9. Something like that. Ask me tomorrow and it'll change. In fact I'd probably put Liston over Holy at Heavy, it's tough for me the HW's.

I now rank Marciano over Liston and am pretty comfortable with having Sonny outside the top ten.

[Muchmoore]

Prime versions of Machen, Folley, Williams, and Patterson are really nice wins. Throw in guys like DeJohn, Clark, Cut and Shoot Harris, Marshall etc. and you have a fair bit of depth.

Obviously his resume is not that of Ali's or perhaps Louis, but really no one apart from those two even come close. I'd put his resume up there with about anyone else, Lennox being a little higher perhaps.

[Rock0052]

It was alright. He gets the most credit for consistently beating top 10 competition on his way up to the title, even if the division itself wasn't great at the time. He'd fight anyone, and that alone scores him points in my book.

[Rock0052]

Prime versions of Machen, Folley, Williams, and Patterson are really nice wins. Throw in guys like DeJohn, Clark, Cut and Shoot Harris, Marshall etc. and you have a fair bit of depth.

Obviously his resume is not that of Ali's or perhaps Louis, but really no one apart from those two even come close. I'd put his resume up there with about anyone else, Lennox being a little higher perhaps.

I think Lennox's is clearly superior, but that's just my two cents. If the two were to swap spots and fight the other's career, I think Lennox would've gotten the better of it.

[El Radar]

Thanks a lot guys. How about the 5 years he fought on after the Ali losses? The only name I recognise on his resume is Chuck Wepner. Were the rest all stiffs and if so why did he start facing them?

[MrMarvel]

Definintely top ten. Arguably top five.

[junior-soprano]

Floyd Patterson, Eddie Machen, Cleveland Williams and Zora Folley were all very good fighters.

Mike DeJohn, Nino Valdes, Roy Harris, Henry Clark, Wayne Bethea, Johnny Summerlin, Marty Marshall, Chuck Wepner were other notable opponents that he beat.

He doesn't have the strongest resume but I think it justifies a top 10 spot.

i think we shouldn't judge him only on his resume. first of all sonny fought everyone and didn't duck or avoided no one. second : a person can't help it if there isn't a "better" competition around. and third : achievements/titles doesn't mean anything.. let me explain what i mean. for example you're a fighter and you're prime is the same period as joe louis has his prime. you beat everyone except joe. you are way better then everyone except for joe. who is a bit better then you are. so all those years you never become a champ. you're always the number 2. does that mean that for example frazier or patterson where better then you cause they became champion ???

probably if ali didn't came along he be champ for 4 to 6 more years.
and i think if liston had to fight all those who ever became heavyweight champion he would win the majority of those fights

[jowcol]

Thanks a lot guys. How about the 5 years he fought on after the Ali losses? The only name I recognise on his resume is Chuck Wepner. Were the rest all stiffs and if so why did he start facing them?
Because he was an over-aged stiff at the time, tho still with numbing skill.
An old Sonny put up and coming Henry Clark to sleep...
IMHO it's all about your circumstances and Sonny got a late start. I still think he was older than that 1932 birthdate often ascribed to him.
You can say this about numerous fighters but had he gotten the right people around him, I think a seasoned brought along well Sonny circa 54-55 would have blown the Rock out...
We're here to debate but I still feel he was one of those handful of fighters that wasn't ''jumpstarted'' correctly...

[Muchmoore]

Thanks a lot guys. How about the 5 years he fought on after the Ali losses? The only name I recognise on his resume is Chuck Wepner. Were the rest all stiffs and if so why did he start facing them?

Henry Clark was rated in the Ring Magazine top ten when Liston beat him :good

[TheGreatA]

Henry Clark was rated in the Ring Magazine top ten when Liston beat him :good

I think Amos Lincoln was once top rated and Amos Johnson may have been. Gerhard Zech was a decent European level fighter but not in Liston's class. "Scrap Iron" Johnson was as game and tough a journeyman as there ever was. Elmer Rush wasn't terrible.

I wouldn't say that any of the fighters I named were good opposition though.

[turpinr]

liston battered nino valdez on his way up the contender list.

after the ali 65 fiasco when he found it hard to get fights he was still considerd too dangerous for joe frazier and avoided with good reason

[silverking]

Most of the guys Liston fought after Ali were reasonable journeymen, lower end of top 10 & some way short of serious contenders but not complete tomato cans.

Gerhard Zech was a useful but not outstanding European heavy.

Amos Johnston was rugged but not a great puncher , he once controversially outpointed Henry Cooper in London & held Karl Mildenberger to a draw in Germany, these were the two leading leading Euro heavies of the period. Brian London had him on the verge of being stopped in Liverpool before Johnson was disqualified prior to losing to Liston. He then lost a decision to Oscar Bonavena & slipped out of any contention.

Dave Bailey was very much B class & was well into his mid 30’s when he fought Sonny. His overall record was pretty poor, he did fight Karl Mildenberger a year or so before meeting Liston. It was a 10 rounder in which Mildenberger was to supposed to win comfortably. However Bailey floored him several times & was the victim of an outrageous points defeat which caused much derision. He was invited back to meet the aforementioned Zech & caused another upset by blasting Zech out in two rounds. Ring magazine was impressed enough to consider rating him in their top 10 but in his next couple of fights, also in Germany, he was stopped & then folded easily against Liston. The rest of his career was spent fighting in Germany, most of which he lost.

Elmer Rush was a reasonable heavy whose main claim to fame was a draw with Eddie Machen. He was never in Liston’s class, even the older Liston, & was floored numerous times before being stopped. Curiously for a power puncher Liston failed to keep him down.

Bill MacMurray was strictly a journeyman who was beaten any time he moved up in class, did go the distance with a few good fighters though.

Billy Joiner was fairly average & mostly lost when facing better opposition. Only the best hitters stopped him though, so was fairly durable, he met Liston twice , retiring after 7 in the first & going the distance in the second.

Henry Clark was actually a useful young heavy at the time he fought Liston. Skilful boxer & had a pretty good career overall but lacked a killer punch which hampered him. This was a good win for Liston.

Sonny Moore was one of those fight anywhere guys who lost more than he won, not a good match.

Willis Earls had no business being put in with Liston.a complete mismatch

Roger Rischer was a California State champion & had a respectable record. He came to the UK & outpointed Henry Cooper, flooring him twice in what was supposed to be a comfortable 10 ten rounder for Cooper. He failed to capitalise on it though, losing on points to Thad Spencer & then being blasted out in one round by Cooper’s old rival Brian London. His career was on the wane by the time he met Liston.


Amos Lincoln was another useful fighter, one you had to beat in order to progress.
He was just beginning to go downhill when he met Liston, but Sonny’s 2 round blastout was a good victory over the usually durable Lincoln.

George’Scrapiron’ Johnston was another teak tough journeyman who never troubled the ratings compilers but was a good ‘opponent’ for any rising heavy.

Leotis Martin was probably the best fighter Liston met on his comeback. He could look either very good (Mildenberger/Spencer) or terrible (Ellis).Likely he would have got a title shot if not for his detached retina.

Chuck Wepner was never a great fighter but fought them all in a very colourful career.His style was tailor made for Liston.

[TAC602]

Been spelled out fairly nicely. He was the best HW in the world for no fewer than three calendar years before he even received a title shot. For Heavyweights, title reigns would seem to weigh more significantly as there isn't much they can accomplish from a "pound-for-pound" perspective where multi-division dominance and moving up to beat other great fighters in higher weight classes earns bookoo points.

You can have superb skills, which he did.
You can be top rated H2H, which he is.
You can clean out all available opposition, which he had.
You can dominate at the top for an extended period time, which he otherwise would've. Irrefutably so.

One of the most avoided fighters in ring history, at any weight. One of the best punchers of all-time, at any weight.

Top 5.

[Conn]

You can clean out all available opposition, which he had.

but he didn't clean out Cassius Clay.

[Flea Man]

I think he means in the years preceding Clay. Which is a fair assessment.

[TAC602]

but he didn't clean out Cassius Clay.

And may those fights forever stay shrouded in mystery.

I'm not making a case for GOAT here, and I was speaking primarily about his active rampaging prime of 1958-62. He KOs Patterson in the same fashion every time, in any of those years. He beats the same rated contenders, only he's doing it under the title of World Heavyweight Champion and adding numerous 'defenses' to his list of accomplishments. It's not just winning fights, but the fashion he did it in.

Not acknowledging Liston as the premiere HW in the world during those years is a little like arguing Spinks as the best HW during 1986-87. It's simply ridiculous. And after a delay, you find out.

[Conn]

And may those fights forever stay shrouded in mystery.

I'm not making a case for GOAT here, and I was speaking primarily about his active rampaging prime of 1958-62. He KOs Patterson in the same fashion every time, in any of those years. He beats the same rated contenders, only he's doing it under the title of World Heavyweight Champion and adding numerous 'defenses' to his list of accomplishments. It's not just winning fights, but the fashion he did it in.

Not acknowledging Liston as the premiere HW in the world during those years is a little like arguing Spinks as the best HW during 1986-87. It's simply ridiculous. And after a delay, you find out.

Don't forget Ingemar Johansson ! Surely he was the no.1 guy in 1958 and '59

[Flea Man]

Indeed, Ingo is one guy Liston missed, although admittedly he was tied up with Patterson and Sonny did beat the man who came out on top there, twice, within six minutes!

[TAC602]

From: The Case For Sonny Liston by Charles Farrell

About ten years ago, just prior to his becoming boxing commissioner for the State of New York, Floyd Patterson and I were briefly business partners. One night, during a blizzard, we stayed up very late, drinking coffee around a roaring fireplace in the living room of his home in New Paltz, New York. Being interested in Liston, I asked Floyd who the hardest puncher he’d ever faced was. I thought I knew the answer. But Patterson surprised me.

“Ingemar Johansson.”

“But Floyd, you fought Liston twice. Ingemar Johansson?”

Floyd smiled his characteristic self-deprecating smile. “Oh, but when I fought Ingemar, I thought I was going to win.”

* - Only Ingemar Johansson and Henry Cooper, of those fighters rated in the top ten during Liston’s prime years, escaped beatings by him. Cooper’s manager was quoted as saying, “If we saw Sonny Liston coming, we’d quickly cross the street.”

I give Floyd a lot of credit. It took serious stones to do the right thing, no matter the cost.

[TAC602]

Here's more from that column, if anyone is interested in the read or hasn't seen it:

Moreover, although Ali is thought to be the harbinger of ring psychology among heavyweights, Liston was a true innovator of unsettling self-presentation. He would stuff towels beneath his hooded terrycloth sweatshirt in order to enhance his already formidable musculature. Adding a poker-faced stare, he discomfited opponents in a manner seldom seen in boxing rings before. Perhaps only a prime Joe Louis was as capable of freezing a man in his tracks before the first punch was thrown.

But, ultimately, one has to confront the issues of Sonny Liston’s two fights with Muhammad Ali. Since these reduced his title reign to one successful defense, his legacy suffers greatly, especially when compared to the number of title defenses attained by Louis, Ali, Holmes, or Lewis. I’m not sure if an already old Liston losing to a young Ali should seriously demote him in terms of overall standing.

But that doesn’t matter. Neither fight was on the up-and-up. I had a best friend in the boxing business. He is no longer living, but he was someone whose credibility, to me, was totally beyond question. He was intimately involved with Sonny Liston’s career, and he participated and benefited from both Liston-Ali fights. In a nutshell, here is what he said occurred and why:

After the second Patterson fight, there were no viable opponents for Liston. Aside from Ali, he had thoroughly destroyed every possible title aspirant. No one thought he could be beaten and, more importantly, no one was willing to pay to see him beat up anyone else.

Sonny was getting old—probably already around forty—and he had no great love for fighting. It didn’t make economic sense to have him fight an endless series of low paying title defenses for another ten years. The guys who controlled his career decided that it was better to make two huge, quick scores.

They fixed the fight in Miami. Ali never knew about it. Liston’s people bet huge amounts, getting almost eight to one odds, on Ali. Because the conclusion of the first fight was so ambiguous, Liston remained a betting favorite—at about seven to five—in the rematch. The wiseguys got to clean up twice with the same play. It’s clear that, in the second fight, Ali spotted what was going on the moment Liston went down from a non-punch. But Ali was a very quick study, and made his press release adjustments by the time he was out of the ring.

Sonny Liston was an adult and a businessman. He beat people up in order to get paid. And, in the two biggest fights of his life, he lost in order to get paid. Sonny Liston did not agonize over what his place might be in the Boxing Pantheon. He didn’t care what you thought, he didn’t care what I thought, and he didn’t give a fuck about what John F. Kennedy—who called Floyd Patterson to the White House before the his first fight with Sonny—thought. He was in the boxing business. He participated in two fixed fights of great historical importance. There were possibly a couple more later in his career—which he won—and one last fight he was supposed to lose and, for mysterious reasons, didn’t.

Unlike most boxing people, I find no fault with Sonny Liston throwing away the heavyweight championship. It was doing him no good.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
Originally appeared in Boxingranks Mar. 2005 and put up in Cox'sCorner

[the cobra]

Patterson wins are great, after that it's a solid, but mostly unspectacular lot. I think he fits in anywhere from 8-13 on an ATG Heavyweight list.

[Mendoza]

Floyd Patterson, Eddie Machen, Cleveland Williams and Zora Folley were all very good fighters.

Mike DeJohn, Nino Valdes, Roy Harris, Henry Clark, Wayne Bethea, Johnny Summerlin, Marty Marshall, Chuck Wepner were other notable opponents that he beat.

He doesn't have the strongest resume but I think it justifies a top 10 spot.

Wasn't the Summerlin fight very close? Liston lost to Marshall, and took some tough journeyman not mentioned here the distance.




Rating Liston is difficult because his opposition wasn't the best, and sometimes he fouled or allegedly cheated by putting a burning substance on his gloves. I think F. Pacheco said as many as 4 fighters complained about such tactics in his 12 greatest rounds show.

[lufcrazy]

I can't find room in the top ten but he certainly kicked arse from 60-64.

My top ten is, in no order: louis, ali, johnson, holmes, foreman, frazier, lewis, marciano, tyson, holyfield.

Liston is amongst the likes of wlad, dempsey, jeffries, sullivan, wills, langford, jackson, charles, walcott, patterson etc.

[ticar]

h2h top 5.resume wise top 10.

[choklab]

I was speaking primarily about his active rampaging prime of 1958-62. He KOs Patterson in the same fashion every time, in any of those years. He beats the same rated contenders, only he's doing it under the title of World Heavyweight Champion and adding numerous 'defenses' to his list of accomplishments. It's not just winning fights, but the fashion he did it in.

Not acknowledging Liston as the premiere HW in the world during those years is a little like arguing Spinks as the best HW during 1986-87. It's simply ridiculous. And after a delay, you find out.

I think Sonny Liston is a great H2H champion but his 1958-62 run is over sold somewhat. Until Liston fought for the title it was tied up between a guy who beat machen quicker than he could and another guy tied to rematches he had not fought yet. Liston was simply an outstanding contender in 1960 alone, not an "uncrowned champion" for a number of years. The wins recorded in 1959 and 1960 Liston was eclipsed both times by the title winning efforts of ingo and patterson. in 1961 liston simply marked time against nobodys until he got a shot in 1962 off the back of what he did in 1960. Wining against floyd proved liston was without doubt the best in the world, but he had to beat him to do it. until then he was an outstanding contender who beat harris beter than the current champion but had not beat machen as easily as an ex champion had.

wiliams, folly, harris and machen were at least winning fights when liston fought them, though all had been knocked out quite recently by other fighters. These were his most worthy wins but he recorded them during the ingo-patterson triangle and its only one year. Its not quite "cleaning out" all the contenders over a number of years.

The bunch of guys Liston fought earlier, ben wise, daniels, ernie cabb, mederos, whitehurst, bethea, valdez, besmanoff, howard king and wesphal were losing fights at the time Liston squashed them, each lost their previous fight coming in against liston. Even dejohn had lost 2 of his last 4 fights, these were wins other contenders could and would acheive. again, Sonny Liston is still the greatest fighter of that period but lets not get carried away.

[lufcrazy]

And may those fights forever stay shrouded in mystery.

I'm not making a case for GOAT here, and I was speaking primarily about his active rampaging prime of 1958-62. He KOs Patterson in the same fashion every time, in any of those years. He beats the same rated contenders, only he's doing it under the title of World Heavyweight Champion and adding numerous 'defenses' to his list of accomplishments. It's not just winning fights, but the fashion he did it in.

Not acknowledging Liston as the premiere HW in the world during those years is a little like arguing Spinks as the best HW during 1986-87. It's simply ridiculous. And after a delay, you find out.

Completely agree with every word here :good

Lineage is overrated and had liston got his shot in 59 and fought the exact same opponents he'd have had a more relevant championship reign but his resume and achievements would remain exactly the same.

[TAC602]

I think Sonny Liston is a great H2H champion but his 1958-62 run is over sold somewhat. Until Liston fought for the title it was tied up between a guy who beat machen quicker than he could and another guy tied to rematches he had not fought yet. Liston was simply an outstanding contender in 1960 alone, not an "uncrowned champion" for a number of years. The wins recorded in 1959 and 1960 Liston was eclipsed both times by the title winning efforts of ingo and patterson. in 1961 liston simply marked time against nobodys until he got a shot in 1962 off the back of what he did in 1960. Wining against floyd proved liston was without doubt the best in the world, but he had to beat him to do it. until then he was an outstanding contender who beat harris beter than the current champion but had not beat machen as easily as an ex champion had.

wiliams, folly, harris and machen were at least winning fights when liston fought them, though all had been knocked out quite recently by other fighters. These were his most worthy wins but he recorded them during the ingo-patterson triangle and its only one year. Its not quite "cleaning out" all the contenders over a number of years.

The bunch of guys Liston fought earlier, ben wise, daniels, ernie cabb, mederos, whitehurst, bethea, valdez, besmanoff, howard king and wesphal were losing fights at the time Liston squashed them, each lost their previous fight coming in against liston. Even dejohn had lost 2 of his last 4 fights, these were wins other contenders could and would acheive. again, Sonny Liston is still the greatest fighter of that period but lets not get carried away.

You make some good points. I don't particularly consider the era to be exceptional, although I do think its a solid division with very few fighters he didn't meet in the ring and for the most part make minced meat out of. Williams (x2), Folley, Harris and Machen were all capable of beating eachother, but all very good wins and none of them came particularly close to beating Sonny. I actually like that he took the UD over Machen or else people would be saying his stamina was unproven over the distance against rated opposition.

[TAC602]

Completely agree with every word here :good

Lineage is overrated and had liston got his shot in 59 and fought the exact same opponents he'd have had a more relevant championship reign but his resume and achievements would remain exactly the same.

:good

I know you aren't particularly fond of the theoretical/subjective H2H category luf, but to put it in comparable terms: How you feel about Tommy Hearns @ 147 is my feeling about Liston at Heavyweight. Sure, others beat better fighters and they both lost against the best fighter they got into the ring. Both of those fighters can be argued #1-2 or #2-3 respectively all-time, divisionally (Ali & Leonard). Liston was getting on in age and hadn't seen much ring time over the several most recent years while Hearns was right on the cusp of outgrowing the division and came in a little bit drained.

Liston physically, was one of the most unique specimens of all-time. A relatively shorter and stocky ATG Heavyweight but with the complete opposite of a reach disadvantage that usually accompanies the body type. In fact, it's tied for the second longest in division history and no doubt a catalyst for arguably the best jab in division history as well. For as widely as he's classified as being a brawler type (which he could do plenty fine), his boxing skills are underrated. Not the fastest fists, but in all likelihood the largest (15" around). And legit KO power in both, especially a crushing left hook and the ability to put together murderous combinations. Granite chin too.

It's tough to imagine Liston failing to give most ATG HWs the fight of their lives, if not winning outright. He had the tools and weapons at his disposal to conquer a variety of styles.

[MadcapMaxie]

I now rank Marciano over Liston and am pretty comfortable with having Sonny outside the top ten.

So you have Marciano at number 10 then? could i see your list?

[Conn]

the best fighters Liston beat :

Zora Folley
Eddie Machen
Floyd Patterson
Cleveland Williams


that's not too shabby. i'm not sure he has enough depth in his resume to really put him high on an all-time list.
especially when you look at how bad he was twice against Ali.

[shommel]

is the liston vs valdes fight available on film?

[mr. magoo]

A top 10 spot is fair, but top 5 is pushing it.

[lufcrazy]

:good

I know you aren't particularly fond of the theoretical/subjective H2H category luf, but to put it in comparable terms: How you feel about Tommy Hearns @ 147 is my feeling about Liston at Heavyweight. Sure, others beat better fighters and they both lost against the best fighter they got into the ring. Both of those fighters can be argued #1-2 or #2-3 respectively all-time, divisionally (Ali & Leonard). Liston was getting on in age and hadn't seen much ring time over the several most recent years while Hearns was right on the cusp of outgrowing the division and came in a little bit drained.

Liston physically, was one of the most unique specimens of all-time. A relatively shorter and stocky ATG Heavyweight but with the complete opposite of a reach disadvantage that usually accompanies the body type. In fact, it's tied for the second longest in division history and no doubt a catalyst for arguably the best jab in division history as well. For as widely as he's classified as being a brawler type (which he could do plenty fine), his boxing skills are underrated. Not the fastest fists, but in all likelihood the largest (15" around). And legit KO power in both, especially a crushing left hook and the ability to put together murderous combinations. Granite chin too.

It's tough to imagine Liston failing to give most ATG HWs the fight of their lives, if not winning outright. He had the tools and weapons at his disposal to conquer a variety of styles.

I completely agree. I think only ali and louis would beat liston throughout history.

He's in my top 3 h2h list but when weighing up the whole greatness consideration it plays no part.

However I do consider how good a man looks (no homo) on film. However that still ranks below resume and achievement.

Whilst I think, for example, liston would beat holy and does look better in his destruction of patterson than holy ever did. But holy has a better resume, ruled the division (in a premiere sense) for longer and the intangibles are in his favour also (smaller man, great post prime career etc.) So altogether I just can't place him above holy who's like my top ten gatekeeper.

[TAC602]

I completely agree. I think only ali and louis would beat liston throughout history.

He's in my top 3 h2h list but when weighing up the whole greatness consideration it plays no part.

However I do consider how good a man looks (no homo) on film. However that still ranks below resume and achievement.

Whilst I think, for example, liston would beat holy and does look better in his destruction of patterson than holy ever did. But holy has a better resume, ruled the division (in a premiere sense) for longer and the intangibles are in his favour also (smaller man, great post prime career etc.) So altogether I just can't place him above holy who's like my top ten gatekeeper.

I could definitely see that. I tend to combine all three of those aspects along with skills/ability although that is sort of what makes H2H itself, and that's how he finds himself in my Top 5.

[Longhhorn71]

Up to 1964 Ali, there were very few heavyweights who weren't scared sh!tless when they fought Liston.

Even Ali said Liston was a very scary man.

[TAC602]

Up to 1964 Ali, there were very few heavyweights who weren't scared sh!tless when they fought Liston.

Even Ali said Liston was a very scary man.

He doesn't seem like the type that would adopt a young boy from Sweden does he? Sonny's power, ability and intimidation in the ring were all very real. No doubt he busted people's heads open in the street. But overall, I think he was very misunderstood and treated unfairly, both by the politics of the sport and general life. He's a tragic figure.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[My2Sense]

You can have superb skills, which he did.

I wouldn't say his skills were "superb" - they were solid, but his physical attributes often compensated for deficits in his technique. For example, he didn't really cut off the ring in a technically correct sense, but his sheer size made him difficult for much smaller fighters to outbox him. His loss to Ali showed that his own jab was largely ineffective against a more comparably-sized boxer, despite his vaunted reach advantage.



You can clean out all available opposition, which he had.

One of the most avoided fighters in ring history, at any weight.

Neither of these statements are accurate. Liston turned down over $100,000 to fight Johansson at one point (a career high payday for him at that time) and Lavorante pushed for a fight with him as well. He also missed out on Bob Cleroux, who was also rated in the top 5 around that time. Henry Cooper has openly admitted that he wanted no part of Liston, but otherwise Liston turned down or bypassed potential matchups just like virtually every other fighter does on the way up.

[TAC602]

I wouldn't say his skills were "superb" - they were solid, but his physical attributes often compensated for deficits in his technique. For example, he didn't really cut off the ring in a technically correct sense, but his sheer size made him difficult for much smaller fighters to outbox him. His loss to Ali showed that his own jab was largely ineffective against a more comparably-sized boxer, despite his vaunted reach advantage.

In general sense, that was probably a bit of an exaggeration. For being widely classified as a brawler and general brute, I think his skills are quite good and underrated. His loss to Ali shows that he probably never beats Ali, although he was visibly slower and a few years out of his peak, against the arguable GOAT mind you.


Neither of these statements are accurate. Liston turned down over $100,000 to fight Johansson at one point (a career high payday for him at that time) and Lavorante pushed for a fight with him as well. He also missed out on Bob Cleroux, who was also rated in the top 5 around that time. Henry Cooper has openly admitted that he wanted no part of Liston, but otherwise Liston turned down or bypassed potential matchups just like virtually every other fighter does on the way up.

Were you there? Or what time specific period? I believe he was offered around $125,000 in 1961, but I don't get too enamored with that type of stuff. I like watching fights. Serious question, not being an ass.

Liston was admittedly inactive in 1961 for the most part, having put in the work to achieve No. 1 contender status based on his gauntlet run of 1958-60. In the meantime, public pressure was mounting on Patterson to meet him in the ring. Consequently, this is also the same time Lavorante and Cleroux became rated fighters. There are also articles that have Johansson being offered as much as $1 MILLION circa 1962-63. Do you really believe he avoided Ingemar?

November 10, 1962: Johansson wants shot at Liston, But Later On
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

August 24, 1963: Liston considers Johansson fight
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[lufcrazy]

His resume is pretty damn good. His 60-64 stint as premiere hw is also pretty damn good. His peak performance on film is arguably the third best in the divisions history.

Top 15 lock with his place under review. Him, wlad, dempsey, rocky and holyfield are currently battling it out for places 9 and 10 in my list.

[Flea Man]

Wlad sucks.

[choklab]

His resume is pretty damn good. His 60-64 stint as premiere hw is also pretty damn good. .
.

1960 was a great year but Listons 1961-64 form was about 13 mins of action against fighters who did not hit him back. He was the best heavyweight around, no question, but patterson was a no show both times, westphal and king were anybodys cannon fodder. Before clay, Listons last competative fight was machen an albeit important win but by no means sensational.

[lufcrazy]

1960 was a great year but Listons 1961-64 form was about 13 mins of action against fighters who did not hit him back. He was the best heavyweight around, no question, but patterson was a no show both times, westphal and king were anybodys cannon fodder. Before clay, Listons last competative fight was machen an albeit important win but by no means sensational.

Ok... The resume he compiled from 60-64 was pretty damn good.

[TAC602]

Not convinced it isn't a testament to Liston's ability that the reigning champion found himself thoroughly shook beyond comprehension at having to get in the ring with him.

[lufcrazy]

Ofcourse it's a testament. By that point floyd was a paper champion and his management knew it.

[TAC602]

Indeed.

That was re: Patterson was a no show

It's a fairly famous drubbing at the hands of Liston. An all-time blowout. X2.

[choklab]

Indeed.

That was re: Patterson was a no show

It's a fairly famous drubbing at the hands of Liston. An all-time blowout. X2.

it is a blow out but floyd froze both times. was it the real floyd? Patterson was the man to beat at that point -and Liston did it twice but if that was the real floyd wouldnt that be like saying Liston was the real sonny that night in Lewiston when he himself was the victim of a blowout?

[lufcrazy]

it is a blow out but floyd froze both times. was it the real floyd? Patterson was the man to beat at that point -and Liston did it twice but if that was the real floyd wouldnt that be like saying Liston was the real sonny that night in Lewiston when he himself was the victim of a blowout?

floyd was a paper champ by that point. liston was all guns blazing and the fight was only delayed because patterson was being protected.

[Duodenum]

Before Clay, Liston's last competitive fight was Machen an albeit important win but by no means sensational.And Liston-Machen II would have been a more merited rematch for my money than the return with the Big Cat had been. Could Sonny take Eddie out as Ingo did? Or would Machen have been significantly better with two good mitts? Liston might have been that much better prepared for his reign with a second go round against Eddie, and he was certainly never shy about rematching other qualiy opposition.

[jowcol]

I posted here earlier (about 2 years earlier :D)
You can say this about other fighters but, had Sonny not had his past and demons, he may have been ready for the title circa 54-55 and, IMHO, would have brutalized the Rock.
People tend to trash the Sonny legacy after the Ali fights (he was getting old and the mystery still swirls around their two scraps). Does anyone go back and really analyze Ali's post-Foreman career? Never a Foreman rematch, lost the 3rd fight to Norton. IMO 'threw' the Spinks fight only to be in line for regaining the title for a 3rd time, etc...
Historically, Sonny never had the following that Ali, or others, had.
Ali (after Patterson) is my all-time fav fighter but Sonny seems to get raked over the coals whereas Muhammad gets the free pass...

[choklab]

floyd was a paper champ by that point. liston was all guns blazing and the fight was only delayed because patterson was being protected.

Sonny was behind ingo in 58' and 59' in the ratings then ingo and Floyd were contracted to rematch the other. with those fights taking up 3 years 1961 was the earliest Liston was entitled to a shot.

[jowcol]

This thread reminded me of one of my fav trivia questions which I know everyone knows the answer to. In this day and age of five 'paper champs' per division, you'll never have this again:-(.
"Between May 1959 and March 1966 (almost 7 years!) who's the ONLY heavyweight to appear in a title fight besides Floyd, Ingo, Sonny, or Muhammad?" *

*screw the Terrell WBA BS.

[choklab]

"Between May 1959 and March 1966 (almost 7 years!) who's the ONLY heavyweight to appear in a title fight besides Floyd, Ingo, Sonny, or Muhammad?" *

*screw the Terrell WBA BS.

Tom McNeely fought patterson in jan 1961:good

[lufcrazy]

Sonny was behind ingo in 58' and 59' in the ratings then ingo and Floyd were contracted to rematch the other. with those fights taking up 3 years 1961 was the earliest Liston was entitled to a shot.

From the rubber stamp onwards floyd was a paper champ.

[choklab]

From the rubber stamp onwards floyd was a paper champ.

maybe he should have fought machen or folly over radmacher but do you think there was an "uncrowned champion" doing the rounds at the same time who was a more worthy champion? I think Moore was the guy to beat to become the top heavyweight and all floyds chalengers bar radmacher were rated. There could be more suspact champions than patterson dont you think?

[TAC602]

Hopefully. Patterson is Listons best win. ;)