Why is Calzaghe's opposition considered trash?

[Amsterdam]

Granted, it's not fantastic opposition, not equaling his ability, but it's superior to Ottke's while dominating all but 1 of them.

In addition, it's about on par with Kostya Tszyu's wins. Tszyu is one of my favourites and is a heralded underrated talent, Tszyu was equally as ducked as Calzaghe was also.

In starting off with Eubank, he also fought Woodhall, Starie, Reid, Sheika and Brewer in relatively close proximity. This is very solid competition at the time considering he could not score a fight with Sven Ottke or Markus Beyer due to those two euro trash protected fighters either avoiding him or their promotional outfit avoiding it, especially Ottke.

Then he took on Veit. Then he took on Mitchell, a former lineal champion who won his title off of Frankie Liles and lost it to Bruno Girard in a close bout. Mitchell was in a controversial fight with the disgraceful Ottke before facing Calzaghe. We know what happens next.

Then he goes through a period of not being able to ink decent bouts and a period of bad injuries, mostly stay busy fights, but one with a fighter who not bad in Mger Mkrtchian, B- level. Rematch with Veit, easy KO victory.

Then we have the Lacy bout, which was superb. Then a tune up vs. Bika and then the Manfredo bout(this was worthless, a Frank ****** style bout) and now he's fighting one of the best around in Mikkel Kessler.

How is this not solid? It's only because the majority are not recognised by Americans so easily. Again, not 'great', but 'respectible'. Agreed?

[Quik]

He fought good oposition. I was taking it to beat kessler until kessler schooled andrade. Now i consider kessler have fought better oposition than calzaghe.

[kg0208]

Not trash.....but like Jones before him (and Jones competition was a little better than Calzaghe because he moved up to challenge himself a bit more) his competition doesn't measure up to his talent level, which is immense.

He has beaten alot of European fighters who aren't well known anywhere else, but if you take a closer look, many were very good fighters.

[brooklyn1550]

He's beaten some very good fighters, many of whom people have never heard of or seen. His opposition certainly isn't great, but a fight/and win against Kessler will be a step in the right direction. He has all the talent in the world, now it's time to solidify his legacy and get only the big fights.

I would say that Kostya Tszyu's resume is slightly better as of right now.

[brooklyn1550]

Calzaghe's talent isn't great - he can't even punch properly, that's why he ends up fighting most fights one-handed and stinking the place out. He's a good brawler with a massive heart and won't stop punching (unless his hand hurts), but he's too square-on to get by a good boxer-puncher near their best and has fought more hideously shit opponents than any world champion in history. And somehow got away with fighting once or twice a year, while too scared to leave South Wales even outside of boxing terms!

He's not the kind of guy you can respect, in all honesty.

I take it you're picking Kessler to beat him

[Amsterdam]

Calzaghe's talent isn't great - he can't even punch properly, that's why he ends up fighting most fights one-handed and stinking the place out. He's a good brawler with a massive heart and won't stop punching (unless his hand hurts), but he's too square-on to get by a good boxer-puncher near their best and has fought more hideously shit opponents than any world champion in history. And somehow got away with fighting once or twice a year, while too scared to leave South Wales even outside of boxing terms!

He's not the kind of guy you can respect, in all honesty.

Ah, my Eubank/Benn/Watson nuthugging friend. Thanks for your contribution, even though I didn't ask for an assessment, but a comment on his opposition.

:D

[Toopretty]

His best opponent to date was Jeff Lacy...Robin Reid and was average no matter what you UK posters say. All of the European fighters he fought mainly were very extra average fighters and those are the better ones. Eubank was on his way out and gave Calzaghe a run. He is a great fighter but there is no defending his crap resume in which you cant even mention Roy's resume in the same breath as Calzaghe...Roy took on tougher guys in the 90s alone Then Calzaghe did his whole entire career.

[kg0208]

His best opponent to date was Jeff Lacy...Robin Reid and was average no matter what you UK posters say. All of the European fighters he fought mainly were very extra average fighters and those are the better ones. Eubank was on his way out and gave Calzaghe a run. He is a great fighter but there is no defending his crap resume in which you cant even mention Roy's resume in the same breath as Calzaghe...Roy took on toughert guys in the 90s alone Then Calzaghe did his whole entire career.
Roy has a better resume, but I am comparing the way in which they are judged by fans and critics.

Let me give you better example. Judah is considered a top flight win for Cotto. It proved alot to people. For Mayweather, the Judah win is not met with the same reverance. People will cover it up and say that happens because PBF didn't stop Judah and Cotto did. But PBF is not a KO guy, especially at 147 and Cotto is, so that is not a fair assessment. Cotto also beat Judah after a layoff and 2 straight losses, while PBF is criticized for beating him after just one loss. The reason IMO? PBF's talent is greater than Cotto and more is expected of him. He is judged in comparison to his talent level.

Jones is judged this way, because no one who beats that many champions and top rated contenders gets criticized like Jones does. But Jones talent was as such that many feel he should have been taking on super fights every other fight, and perhaps he should have. Calzaghe is not quite as talented IMO, but he is far more talented than his resume and the people on it. So he is criticized even more. I am not a Euro poster, but I can tell you some of those European fighters on his resume that you believe are average were very good fighters.

[Amsterdam]

Seek help.

Well, he surely spanked Chris Eubank like Chris had never been dominated before and did so in a green 21 fight state. Eubank would have never won this stylistic comparison and you seek to boost up Benn-Eubank and Watson and discredit Calzaghe at every turn.

At least you can sleep easy in knowing that Eubank would have never, under any circumstances defeated the SMW monster that is known as Calzaghe. A peak Calzaghe would have massacred a peak Eubank and would have ruined him, just like a green Calzaghe ruined whatever was left of the past prime Chris Eubank, who happened to be in great shape for this event, less muscular and more chiseled like he was in his younger days and his experience could do him no good against a totally inexperienced opponent.

Sleep easy in knowing that Watson and Benn would have been brutally butchered as well against your slap happy welshman.

:deal

[Amsterdam]

Fuck off, you twat.

And now we resort to childish name calling.:yep :yep

Are you Chris Eubank mate? If so, I am a fan, but I don't like your attitude here.

[pipe wrenched]

It is IMO, unfair. He fought and beat whoever was put in front of him. Only speaking out of speculation here, but one reason this is probably even brought up is the fact he never came to the states to showcase his talents. (Not implying state side fighters are necessarily usually better opponents, but the US is a huge country with a few of the States being larger than some of the Euro countries. Meaning there are a lot of damn good US fighters because we have so many to choose from. We wouldn't get all up on a fighter that only fought in Texas. He would have to travel the states to beat whoever). Look at his to date biggest win, against a known good US fighter. IMO, not coming to the states is why he catches crap of any kind. Hatton came over and gained a lot of fans in the process, catching less crap along the way. All only my opinion of course, and to repeat I do say it's unfair treatment to Calzaghe.

[Amsterdam]

Watson (2nd), Schommer and Collins (2nd) dominated him far more. The Calzaghe fight was close, those weren't.

Close? Watson dominated him more? Watson was comfortably ahead.

What was close about it? 9 rounds to 3 Calzaghe with a KD involved also, that's a domination.

[pipe wrenched]

Roy has a better resume, but I am comparing the way in which they are judged by fans and critics.

Let me give you better example. Judah is considered a top flight win for Cotto. It proved alot to people. For Mayweather, the Judah win is not met with the same reverance. People will cover it up and say that happens because PBF didn't stop Judah and Cotto did. But PBF is not a KO guy, especially at 147 and Cotto is, so that is not a fair assessment. Cotto also beat Judah after a layoff and 2 straight losses, while PBF is criticized for beating him after just one loss. The reason IMO? PBF's talent is greater than Cotto and more is expected of him. He is judged in comparison to his talent level.

Jones is judged this way, because no one who beats that many champions and top rated contenders gets criticized like Jones does. But Jones talent was as such that many feel he should have been taking on super fights every other fight, and perhaps he should have. Calzaghe is not quite as talented IMO, but he is far more talented than his resume and the people on it. So he is criticized even more. I am not a Euro poster, but I can tell you some of those European fighters on his resume that you believe are average were very good fighters.

Damn KG, that's well put.:good

[lefthook31]

I would say his competition is average to slightly above. The reason he gets trashed so much is, he has been a long reigning champ with a good record, and he was champ during the time when guys like Hopkins, Tarver, Michalzewski, and Toney were in their respective primes, and he never went out to make those fights. He was happy fighting the middle of the road contenders, after they were fairly washed up. Guys like Echols, Brewer, Sheika, just middle of the road, and not fighters to put him on the level with the other guys, and the level he believes hes at with his cocky mouth.

[brooklyn1550]

Calzaghe clearly beat Eubank

[pipe wrenched]

I have been undecided since the announcement of the fight, but I am certainly starting to lean towards Calzaghe. Especially after reading about the future opponents he is looking for if he wins.

[lefthook31]

Eubank was an old man. He had two more fights both losses and then retired, he was finished when he fought Calzhage, not a good perameter. Thats been the trend with Joe, his promoter has carefully matched him his entire career, picking guys at the perfect time, while avoiding some of the bigger names, and theres got to be a reason for it. :deal

[box03]

Calazaghe is a great boxer, but his resume doesnt show that. Hes never beaten a great fighter like Jones or Hopkins, mostly above average middles like Benn, Eubank, and Lacy who was a overhyped super middlewieght himself. I give him credit for being on top for so long, I just wish he could of fought better opposition so people would give him more props.

[kg0208]

Eubank was an old man. He had two more fights both losses and then retired, he was finished when he fought Calzhage, not a good perameter. Thats been the trend with Joe, his promoter has carefully matched him his entire career, picking guys at the perfect time, while avoiding some of the bigger names, and theres got to be a reason for it. :deal

Well neither Lacy or Kessler were picked at the perfect time (based on what you mean here) so this should tell us alot about him.

[pipe wrenched]

BTW, where can I catch some Calzaghe fights?? Youtube has next to nothing of him in action (at least that I can find, only interviews and such), I only really saw him against Manfredo which didn't go to far. I saw the one round between him and Mitchell I think it was where he knocked Calz down only to have Calz dismantle his ass right after. Would love to see more of his action. (same for Kessler, I only really saw him fight Andrade)

[lefthook31]

Well neither Lacy or Kessler were picked at the perfect time (based on what you mean here) so this should tell us alot about him.

Lacy was certainly unproven, and considered what he really turned out to be, a one dimensional guy. He was popular because he fought on a major network and was matched against guys he could knockout and look spectacular against. His fight with Sheika should have tipped everyone off to what he really was all along. Leading up to the Calzahge fight, he had faced similar to worse opposition to Joe.

[pipe wrenched]

Calzaghe's opposition is average. It's not great, it's not bad, it's average.

He's fought proven elite fighters like Eubank.
He's fought solid contenders like Reid and Woodhall
He's fought awkward fighters like Salem and Bika
He's fought up and coming fighters like Lacy, Veit and a young Sheika
He's fought decent, top ten rated fighters like Mkertchian, Mitchell, Brewer

Lacy and Eubank are the only "named" fighters he's fought, sure - but he's in the SMW division - a division that has had two fatal flaws in the time that Calzaghe has been around

Flaw 1: It has been bereft of 'big name' fighters largely due to the legacy of fighters directly above and directly below. Fighters weren't getting past Hopkins at Middleweight and Fighters saw more money with Jones Jr at LHW - SMW was not a glamour division and as such, did not attract glamour (read, American known) fighters during Calzaghe's time period.

Calzaghe, being committed to defending his belt and wanting to establish himself as the greatest in his weight class never looked at going down in weight or up in weight - however he did put his feelers out for a Bernard Hopkins fight in 2002 that was all but signed until Hopkins demanded double money.

Flaw 2: Sven Ottke would not fight Joe Calzaghe. Ottke during his time was the only other fighter who a spotless record who held a title belt . (Despite Ottke having lost at least four fights in my eyes).

The SMW division had a bunch of talent that except for Calzaghe, were not standing tall above one another - people were trading wins and losses and until Lacy and now Kessler, no one really rised above the competition as a solid threat and contender to Calzaghe.

Excepting Ottke - the only two "dominant" fighters at SMW outside of Joe Calzaghe, were Jeff Lacy and now Mikkel Kessler

Both who he has/will be fighting and both he he has/will beat.

People can bitch and moan all they want about "Why didn't Joe go down to 160 or up to 175" - the fact is, he didn't - he has however fought the best available fighters in his division, a division he has cleared out and is about to clear out once more.

This is fair by all means.:good

[lefthook31]

No, the Thompson fights were two of the best-ever performances. He made Carl look like a donkey.

He was just weight-drained at 168 from the Close fights.

Yeah just like Tyson when he fought Williams, he hurt his knee. Everyone has an excuse. Bottom line, he lost, and never fought again after losing three in a row. :deal

[Strike]

Granted, it's not fantastic opposition, not equaling his ability, but it's superior to Ottke's while dominating all but 1 of them.

In addition, it's about on par with Kostya Tszyu's wins. Tszyu is one of my favourites and is a heralded underrated talent, Tszyu was equally as ducked as Calzaghe was also.

In starting off with Eubank, he also fought Woodhall, Starie, Reid, Sheika and Brewer in relatively close proximity. This is very solid competition at the time considering he could not score a fight with Sven Ottke or Markus Beyer due to those two euro trash protected fighters either avoiding him or their promotional outfit avoiding it, especially Ottke.

Then he took on Veit. Then he took on Mitchell, a former lineal champion who won his title off of Frankie Liles and lost it to Bruno Girard in a close bout. Mitchell was in a controversial fight with the disgraceful Ottke before facing Calzaghe. We know what happens next.

Then he goes through a period of not being able to ink decent bouts and a period of bad injuries, mostly stay busy fights, but one with a fighter who not bad in Mger Mkrtchian, B- level. Rematch with Veit, easy KO victory.

Then we have the Lacy bout, which was superb. Then a tune up vs. Bika and then the Manfredo bout(this was worthless, a Frank ****** style bout) and now he's fighting one of the best around in Mikkel Kessler.

How is this not solid? It's only because the majority are not recognised by Americans so easily. Again, not 'great', but 'respectible'. Agreed?

Brewer was shot to fuck. Starie...come on mate, good domestic level fighter. Dean Francis was a top UK talent who lost his career through injury and a bit of stupidity....but he smashed the shit out of Starie in a way neither Joe or Reid did.

The big problem was a long list of absolute no hopers being shipped over. Pudwell etc. It is not horrendous, there are some decent names, but when he beat the past it Eubank we were all hyped. We knew Eubank was past it, but Calzaghe was still very impressive. He has then faced about 4 fighters worth mentioning....

Woodhall
Reid
Mitchell
Lacy

I will allow Veit at a push. Brewer was DONE. The rest is simply not acceptable, not for a guy of his ability.

[brooklyn1550]

People can question Joe's resume all they want, but is there any questioning that the guy obviously is a great talent? He has great reflexes, great foot work, great footspeed, great handspeed, he puts his punches together nicely, and can fight on the inside and outside.

[kg0208]

Lacy was certainly unproven, and considered what he really turned out to be, a one dimensional guy. He was popular because he fought on a major network and was matched against guys he could knockout and look spectacular against. His fight with Sheika should have tipped everyone off to what he really was all along. Leading up to the Calzahge fight, he had faced similar to worse opposition to Joe.

Lacy was not going to get better though. He was holding a title and was highly ranked (Behind only Kessler and Calzaghe, and he is fighting Kessler now right?). He fought him in his prime and there was no other time to fight him. Lacy was calling him out, and if I remember correctly, people were saying that Calzaghe was scared of him (he kept getting injured). There can be no doubt of the timing of that fight.

[lefthook31]

Brewer was shot to fuck. Starie...come on mate, good domestic level fighter. Dean Francis was a top UK talent who lost his career through injury and a bit of stupidity....but he smashed the shit out of Starie in a way neither Joe or Reid did.

The big problem was a long list of absolute no hopers being shipped over. Pudwell etc. It is not horrendous, there are some decent names, but when he beat the past it Eubank we were all hyped. We knew Eubank was past it, but Calzaghe was still very impressive. He has then faced about 4 fighters worth mentioning....

Woodhall
Reid
Mitchell
Lacy

I will allow Veit at a push. Brewer was DONE. The rest is simply not acceptable, not for a guy of his ability.

Right, and if he fought a guy like Hopkins or Jones the way he fought Brewer at that time, we would have never heard of Joe Calzhage again.

[pipe wrenched]

People can question Joe's resume all they want, but is there any questioning that the guy obviously is a great talent? He has great reflexes, great foot work, great footspeed, great handspeed, he puts his punches together nicely, and can fight on the inside and outside.

Can anyone question if he's truly great?? NO.
As I said in an earlier long winded post, the only reason IMO he gets any crap is for not coming state side.

[kg0208]

Agreed.
Losing to Jones or Hopkins wouldn't have ended his career. It may have forced him to fight a higher level of opposition to re-establish himself but he would have been back.

We all know who Clinton Woods is these days (not super famous or anything, but a solid champion) and he lost to Jones...badly.

[kg0208]

Calzaghe wouldn't handle a loss, let alone a brutal loss. He's very mentally fragile.
Proof? Have we seen him breakdown mentally?

[lefthook31]

Lacy was not going to get better though. He was holding a title and was highly ranked (Behind only Kessler and Calzaghe, and he is fighting Kessler now right?). He fought him in his prime and there was no other time to fight him. Lacy was calling him out, and if I remember correctly, people were saying that Calzaghe was scared of him (he kept getting injured). There can be no doubt of the timing of that fight.

Theres many fighters who hold titles because of their promotional ties and rankings. That doesnt mean shit, they still are what they are.

I like Joe Calzahge, and I think he has the skills and the heart to fight the better guys, but in the late 90's and early part of 2000 he had a very big mouth and called out everyone and the fights never happened. If a guy like Hatton can go out and make the bigger fights like he is doing Joe could have certainly done the same, and he didnt, he continued fighting a long list of BS fights. The Lacy and Kessler fights are good starts, and Im sure ****** is thinking Joe doesnt have too much time left, so he is going to look to make the biggest fights for Joe, before he hangs it up, but I think everyone can agree he missed a lot of great opportunities to put his legacy up there with some of the current guys who have achieved "great" status.

[brooklyn1550]

Calzaghe wouldn't handle a loss, let alone a brutal loss. He's very mentally fragile.

And you know this how?

[brooklyn1550]

^^^

I do see similarities Blocky....and I see another similarity

Calzaghe
43-0 (32)

Hatton
43-0 (31)

[kg0208]

Theres many fighters who hold titles because of their promotional ties and rankings. That doesnt mean shit, they still are what they are.

I like Joe Calzahge, and I think he has the skills and the heart to fight the better guys, but in the late 90's and early part of 2000 he had a very big mouth and called out everyone and the fights never happened. If a guy like Hatton can go out and make the bigger fights like he is doing Joe could have certainly done the same, and he didnt, he continued fighting a long list of BS fights. The Lacy and Kessler fights are good starts, and Im sure ****** is thinking Joe doesnt have too much time left, so he is going to look to make the biggest fights for Joe, before he hangs it up, but I think everyone can agree he missed a lot of great opportunities to put his legacy up there with some of the current guys who have achieved "great" status.
We are not talking about this, you and I. You are talking about things he could have done and the like. I commented on how this fight will tell us alot about Calzaghe just as the Lacy fight did and that it was not an "opportune" time to take the fight, but the right time.

We are talking about the timing of these fights, since you say that he takes fights at the most opportune times. People always say that rankings don't mean shit, but this isn't true. A vast majority of the time a fighter has a belt or a high ranking because he has earned them. There are exceptions, but the statement you said is NOT the rule.

There was not a better a fighter for Calzaghe to fight at SMW than Lacy when he fought Lacy besides Kessler. He is now fighting Kessler. There is no "opportune time" going on here.

[pipe wrenched]

Yo, dude

How can you not see the paralells between Hatton and Calzaghe?

Hatton got a major chance to establish himself as a name with Tszyu
Calzaghe got a major chance to establish himself as a name with Lacy

Hatton took several weaker opposition fights following Tszyu
Calzaghe took a couple of weaker opposition fights following Lacy

Hatton then got his chance at Mayweather/JLC
Calzaghe can have Hopkins/Taylor/Dawson/Woods after he beats Kessler.

They're so fucking similar it isn't funny

The only difference is, there are more "names" in Hatton's division than there are in Calzaghe's

To me Blocky, and I already said it isn't fair, but IMO the reason Ricky doesn't catch as much shit is for coming to the States to show off his talents.

[lefthook31]

Can anyone question if he's truly great?? NO.
As I said in an earlier long winded post, the only reason IMO he gets any crap is for not coming state side.

Thats simply not true. Many here have outlined why. Its not about going stateside, its about avoiding the fights against guys who were dominate champions and considered greats or future greats at the time. Guys like Hopkins and Jones. I remember saying lets just see him fight Echols around the time Echols fought Hopkins. The fight was avoided cancelled, and then finally after Echols was washed up Joe took the fight, and won. Lacy is really the first solid guy he fought at the right time, and Lacy is just a one dimensional banger.

[kg0208]

Joe does not have immense talent..:patsch

C'mon now..

Thats how you feel.....

[brooklyn1550]

Yet he has a lesser KO percentage than Calzaghe - who's apparently a slapper with no power... lol

Good point....I don't think either are P4P punchers. Both wear guys down generally with an accumulation of punishment. However, despite his lower KO percentage (which don't always tell the tale), I think Hatton is the harder puncher P4P.

[pipe wrenched]

Thats simply not true. Many here have outlined why. Its not about going stateside, its about avoiding the fights against guys who were dominate champions and considered greats or future greats at the time. Guys like Hopkins and Jones. I remember saying lets just see him fight Echols around the time Echols fought Hopkins. The fight was avoided cancelled, and then finally after Echols was washed up Joe took the fight, and won. Lacy is really the first solid guy he fought at the right time, and Lacy is just a one dimensional banger.

O.k. Lefthook, but I did state it as simply an opinion. You make good points. In all honesty I don't know a whole lot about Calzaghe and his career, or most of the names on his resume, but I have the mind set that just because I've never seen them doesn't mean they're no good

[lefthook31]

We are not talking about this, you and I. You are talking about things he could have done and the like. I commented on how this fight will tell us alot about Calzaghe just as the Lacy fight did and that it was not an "opportune" time to take the fight, but the right time.

We are talking about the timing of these fights, since you say that he takes fights at the most opportune times. People always say that rankings don't mean shit, but this isn't true. A vast majority of the time a fighter has a belt or a high ranking because he has earned them. There are exceptions, but the statement you said is NOT the rule.

There was not a better a fighter for Calzaghe to fight at SMW than Lacy when he fought Lacy besides Kessler. He is now fighting Kessler. There is no "opportune time" going on here.

Isnt this thread about why Joe's opposition is considered trash? Well this is why. We can go through Brian Nielsons record, and pick out all these name guys he beat, like Witherspoon, and Holmes, and Orlin Norris, and he beat all of them, but they were picked at just the right time that super Brian could beat them. Lacy was a good fight for Joe, because he was a popular fighter here the states, but he wasnt the king of the super middle division, or the standard for the best. That would have been a different story had Calzahge faced a guy like James Toney, or Roy Jones, or Bernard Hopkins, when the timing was right for those fights, that would have proven a lot about how good Joe really is.

[kg0208]

Jones fought an undefeated Hopkins who was ripping through everybody, Sugarboy Malinga who had scholed Nigel Benn, James Toney who people rated above Whitaker, Virgil Hill, Reggie Johnson, and then became heavyweight champion of the world.

Joe fought Omar Sheika, Richie Woodhall who was light years past his best, Brewer, and Lacy.

I didn't compare their resume so this is a moot point. I compared the way they are viewed.

And Hopkins was not undefeated. Toney was rated behind Whitaker still (P4P #2) and Jones was a title holder, not HW champion.

Besides, you bash Jones when it's convenient to build up Collins.

Your proof about Calzaghe's mental state was very convincing BTW.

[kg0208]

Isnt this thread about why Joe's opposition is considered trash? Well this is why. We can go through Brian Nielsons record, and pick out all these name guys he beat, like Witherspoon, and Holmes, and Orlin Norris, and he beat all of them, but they were picked at just the right time that super Brian could beat them. Lacy was a good fight for Joe, because he was a popular fighter here the states, but he wasnt the king of the super middle division, or the standard for the best. That would have been a different story had Calzahge faced a guy like James Toney, or Roy Jones, or Bernard Hopkins, when the timing was right for those fights, that would have proven a lot about how good Joe really is.
I am referring to what I commented to you and you responded back to me. Nothing else. There are sub subjects in a thread.

[box03]

Isnt this thread about why Joe's opposition is considered trash? Well this is why. We can go through Brian Nielsons record, and pick out all these name guys he beat, like Witherspoon, and Holmes, and Orlin Norris, and he beat all of them, but they were picked at just the right time that super Brian could beat them. Lacy was a good fight for Joe, because he was a popular fighter here the states, but he wasnt the king of the super middle division, or the standard for the best. That would have been a different story had Calzahge faced a guy like James Toney, or Roy Jones, or Bernard Hopkins, when the timing was right for those fights, that would have proven a lot about how good Joe really is. I agree, my feeling is you cant be considered a great fighter until you beat a great fighter and Calazaghe really hasnt.

[kg0208]

Toney was seen as the best boxer in the world after the Barkley fight.

By whom, Ring had him behind Whitaker.

[lefthook31]

I am referring to what I commented to you and you responded back to me. Nothing else.

Well lets just say hes headed in the right direction, but I would have liked to see him fight Jones or Hopkins, those would have been great fights, and would have really established him as a great fighter, had he beaten one of them. Thats why I dislike ******, he is only out for one thing, and thats money. He could give a dam about making the best competitive fights or his fighters legacy, and thats why Hatton got smart and jumped ship. :good

[kg0208]

Well lets just say hes headed in the right direction, but I would have liked to see him fight Jones or Hopkins, those would have been great fights, and would have really established him as a great fighter, had he beaten one of them. Thats why I dislike ******, he is only out for one thing, and thats money. He could give a dam about making the best competitive fights or his fighters legacy, and thats why Hatton got smart and jumped ship. :good

He certainly could have fought better fighters, and it is too late most likely for him to step up. Fighting Hopkins now means little.

He would need to fight the young guns.....and probably at 175.

[kg0208]

By most people.

And he was. That performance was fucking sublime.
Most people is not provable and yes the performance was great. But Whitaker was just as great and in a division fighting guys bigger than him. Regardless, it had nothing to do with what I said, and like I said, you bash Jones when it's convenient to build up Collins and Benn.

[kg0208]

Then he anihilated undefeated Tim Littles who Eubank ducked (when Benn went for the WBC, Eubank informed the WBO that he didn't want to fight Littles (who was #2 behind Benn) so in their next rankings suddenly Tony Thornton was #1 and Littles #2), looking super-sharp, and then did a job on Prince Charles Williams, fighting off the ropes brilliantly and taking him out with a perfect punch.

No one is doubting how good Toney was bud. I am saying he was not rated ahead of the legendary ATG Pernell Whitaker.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Even after Jones beat Toney he was behind Whitaker.

[kg0208]

What the hell are you talking about?

Don't worry about it. It doesn't really matter and I shouldn't have brought it up.

[kg0208]

Holy shit, a magazine said different

































I'm changing my own opinion!

Were we talking about your opinion only? If this is your response to proof that one of the more reputable magazines and widely used ratings in the sport had Whitaker still over Toney, then I rest my case. Sarcasm certainly doesn't help yours.

[kg0208]

Ring Magazine is just as much bias and bullshit as, say, ***********.com or the legendary James Slater. They are human writers, it's all subjective.

Toney was the best in the business, when he was at 68. In my opinion (and many others I remember).
If they are biased because they are just human, then its fair to say that the people you refer to, including yourself, are just as biased because you are also human. And therefore none of this really matters at all.

Just keep in mind, Whitaker had no lost since 1988 and had won the 135, 140, 147, and 154 titles between the time that loss and his next one to DLH in 1997. It is not a slight to Toney to be rated behind one of the greatest fighters of all time in 1993-1994. Remember, in 1993, before Jones fought Toney, Whitaker had a draw with the great JCC which most thought he won. That is why he was rated ahead of Toney.

[kg0208]

He was 222lbs six weeks out, and was in hospital the night before on a machine keeping him alive.

Jones's style is all wrong for Toney, but I'd still take Toney at his best to take him.


He was in a machine the night before keeping him ALIVE?

222 lbs six weeks out? You have a link to these things? I would love to know what commission would have let him fight when he was on life support the night before.

[kg0208]

Jones only beat Toney because he was super fast . That didn't last and Toney would kick the shit out of him now and probably anytime in the last 7 years or so . The only thing Jones ever had going for him was unreal speed and reflexes . He's not a real fighter like Toney , No way :bart Toney got 10x the balls Roy ever thought about having !

Yah, you're not a Jones hater right? It didn't last? Jones wouldn't lose for 10 years after this fight.

Move on dude...as I said, you wreak of Brawler.

[brooklyn1550]

Jones's style is all wrong for Toney, but I'd still take Toney at his best to take him.

I don't think so...Jones would always spell trouble for James.

[kg0208]

I'm not a hater that is the truth . Toney can still kick ass against guys Jones would piss his pants with if he had to fight them . 10 years is nothing and it was more like 8 :good
1994 to 2004....10 years. Perhaps 9 years and a 6 months. :deal

And 10 years is a long time in boxing. Very long.

And yes, you're a hater....you said Jones was never good in the other thread, and come up with derogatory names for anyone who argues with you. We go by your actions, not your excuses.

[Lance_Uppercut]

Calzaghe's opp isn't bad. It's just not good for someone of his stature, or his supposed stature as one of the top fighters in the world. There have been fights that he should have been a part pf that broke down to to him, as well as the opponent. I reckon when he retires, he'll have more questions about him then actual answers.

[nervousxtian]

Calzaghe wasn't even a 'real' champ until he beat Lacy.

He's defended that against 2 C-level fighters.

I'm happy he's facing Kessler, but up til this point he's got a joke of a resume for people to consider him p4p material.

[Toopretty]

The Calzaghe fan just needs to STFU when it comes to Roy..there is no comparison in any aspect of the sport. Sorry ..go fish....as the post above shows Roy as I said fought better guys in the 90s

[kg0208]

Roy easily destroys Joe Calzaghe in their primes at 168 - no one argues that.

However, Roy's competition at 175 is about the same level as Joe's at 168

Roy fought his best two fighters at 160 and 168.

This is pretty accurate...of course Jones has the HW win.

I am not a Calzaghe fan BTW TooPretty, my comparison was in view of the way they are judged by others. Not about their competition, skill level, or anything else.

[Toopretty]

I'm a fan of Calzaghe's but he's not even in my top five favorite fighters.

The guy is a unique talent, supremely gifted and I think would give anyone at 168lbs their toughest fight, including RJJ Jr.

But RJJ Jr at 168 was as invincible as anyone is ever going to get and would still KO Calzaghe within 9.

Calzaghes fast hands would mean nothing to a prime Roy..that would just mean more counter punch opps...Calzaghe has fast hands..Roy had unrealistic fast everything...He made James Toney look like a turtle and he had ok hand speed for a 168 guy with his quick counters. Prime Roy would tap dance on Calzaghes ass.

[Toopretty]

I'm not going to dispute that Roy walks all over Calzaghe - Roy walks all over ANYONE at 168lbs

But Joe beats Toney at 168 - as unpopular as that's going to make me.

You're under-rating Calzaghe's feetwork, defensive evasiveness, ring generaliship and chin. He's not just fast hands, he's a good outside fighter who would have height on Roy Jones.

He'd take a couple of rounds but Roy is too strong, too quick and too lethal at that particular weight.. He was realistically unbeatable at 168 and that's a fact.

Joe is probably second best at 168 judging opponents, performance and talent.

I think Hopkins beats Joe, though.

Nah...if calzaghe tries to jump on toney like he does and swarms and lets his hands go..toney would play possom not being hurt by any of his punches and toney would counter him with that right hand as he does masterfully..and Calzaghes defense is average and he is open to right hand counters.....period...Calzaghe would only possibly get a points win.

[kg0208]

Jones is the best H2H fighter ever at 168.

Calzaghe is probably 2nd best (Toney will get a good argument here)

Calzaghe is the greatest SMW of all time.

[Toopretty]

You forget three things about Joe, mainly because you don't know him that well.

A: Joe doesn't stay in the pocket, if he's in the pocket it's because he's hurting you and consistently hitting you.

B: Joe is not an easy fighter to counter.

C: James Toney has always had issues with faster fighters than he is.

Joe's workrate, ability to evade punches and handspeed would have him out-punching and beating Toney all night.

He's not gonna KO Toney but Toney ain't gonna KO him either.

Joe is easy to counter and he has been countered and put down...Toney would do the same thing.Toney could handle speedy fast fighters that punched in bunches..Calzaghe would not win a boxing match on the outside toney in his prime could move his body in angles to counter you. Calzaghe will get too close and get put on his ass...Calzaghe had his hands full with a past it Eubanks.Toney gets the nod. Calzaghes footwork is nothing near better then the fighters that Toney has been in with. Nor is Calzaghes jab.

[brooklyn1550]

Toney-Calzaghe is a very interesting matchup. First off, Toney was such a crafty fighter who knew every trick in the book, could stand in one place and make you miss/pay, and he could throw every punch in the book as well. His straight right hand counter could spell trouble for Calzaghe as that is the punch he is most vulnerable to. And Calzaghe would leave himself open for some great Toney counters. Toney would most certainly not be getting stopped by Calzaghe either. However, Calzaghe may just have the style to beat Toney at 168. Calzaghe's workrate, hand speed, and footwork would cause Toney problems. Toney is the greater fighter, the better counter puncher, the craftier fighter, has the better chin, the better jab, and was the better defensive fighter, but I believe Calzaghe has all the tools to win a decision over Toney. Perhaps he would keep Toney off balance with his feints, work his way inside, fire off quick punches, and move right back out. Could he present many of the same problems as Michael Nunn did at middleweight? Yes, and I don't think he would get stopped late either.

Joe Calzaghe by decision is my pick (I know I will take a hit for this)

[brooklyn1550]

Calzaghe only has a punchers chance.

No way - Calzaghe a puncher's chance against Toney? Toney's chin is up there with the Haglers and the LaMottas.

[Toopretty]

Nope...Joe would get knocked down...about 2wice at least in this fight and Joe has a tendency to get froggy which would be the reason why he gets put on his ASS by Toney..Toney by UD.

[Scar]

His resume isn't bad but also isn't something to be considered top P4P nor "one of the best super middleweights in history" for.

[kg0208]

His resume isn't bad but also isn't something to be considered top P4P nor "one of the best super middleweights in history" for.

There aren't alot of great SMW though. Jones while being the best H2H, only fought their 12 times.

Calzaghe has more title defenses at the weight class than Jones has fights there. By accumilation, I would bestow him that title, especially if he beats Kessler. Eubank, Lacy, and Kessler is not an ATG resume, but there aren't really any ATG at this weight, besides Jones and Toney.

[KO Boxing]

His resume isn't bad but also isn't something to be considered top P4P nor "one of the best super middleweights in history" for.
I'm inclined to agree with the above.

[kg0208]

Calzaghe was an outrageously hard one-punch hitter when he was coming up (pre-hand troubles). Toney's chin isn't proven, Peter said he didn't hit him clean and Toney's neck was wider than his head and he had 50lbs of fat holding him up.

Eubank, probably the best chin we've ever seen in boxing, said Calzaghe stunned him and that's enough for me!

Toney has been down less than Eubank. We have been through this. His chin is proven and you are among the only people alive to have ever said what you just did.

[kg0208]

Not proven as one of thee best, then.

Peter says he'd have knocked him out if he hit him clean. He rolled with the rest of the punches in his career.

He didn't roll with the punches Jones hit him with. He got hit flush a ton.

[Toopretty]

Calzaghe was an outrageously hard one-punch hitter when he was coming up (pre-hand troubles). Toney's chin isn't proven, Peter said he didn't hit him clean and Toney's neck was wider than his head and he had 50lbs of fat holding him up.

Eubank, probably the best chin we've ever seen in boxing, said Calzaghe stunned him and that's enough for me!


:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:patsch

Thats my laugh for the night....And peter hit Toney flush and clean a few times...retard..so did Roy with multiple punches Toney could not and would not get stopped by calzaghe...But Calzaghe would get put on his ass the same way Mitchell put him on his ass but Toney in his prime was a lot faster then you short memoried people think. He had hands speed and good movement and could go all 12 with a prime Roy........................no more comments needed.

[Scar]

There aren't alot of great SMW though. Jones while being the best H2H, only fought their 12 times.

Calzaghe has more title defenses at the weight class than Jones has fights there. By accumilation, I would bestow him that title, especially if he beats Kessler. Eubank, Lacy, and Kessler is not an ATG resume, but there aren't really any ATG at this weight, besides Jones and Toney.

Compare any win Calzaghe has with Jones' win over prime Toney at Super Middleweight.

[kg0208]

Compare any win Calzaghe has with Jones' win over prime Toney at Super Middleweight.
There are none...this is a given. That's why I said by accumilation.

Remember, Jones best win at MW is better than Hopkins best win there, but Hopkins is considered the better MW cuz of longevity there.

[brooklyn1550]

Calzaghe was an outrageously hard one-punch hitter when he was coming up (pre-hand troubles). Toney's chin isn't proven, Peter said he didn't hit him clean and Toney's neck was wider than his head and he had 50lbs of fat holding him up.

Eubank, probably the best chin we've ever seen in boxing, said Calzaghe stunned him and that's enough for me!

James Toney has been hit by Mike McCallum, Roy Jones Jr, Evander Holyfield, Iran Barkley, Merqui Sosa, Samuel Peter, Hasim Rahman, etc...

He has taken flush shots before and has only been down 3 times in 80 fights. Argubaly, the knockdowns from Peter and Jones were because he was off balance.

Toney's chin is tested to the max and he has one of the best chins ever.

Eubank's chin was great, I'm not denying that, but he doesn't have the best chin ever. It's not quite as good as Chuvalo, LaMotta, Hagler, Toney, McCall, Tua, etc.

Calzaghe didn't hit hard enough to stop James Toney. I'm sorry, but he doesn't and that's the bottom line.

[brooklyn1550]

Hahahaha..if Peter told you he could fly, if given the right amount of height to jump from, would you believe him?

:lol:

[kg0208]

Eubank took Nigel Benn's best bombs at 160 - nothing is more proven than that!

That doesn't prove that Toney had a lesser chin. It just proves Eubank had a great one. They are not mutually exclusive.

[brooklyn1550]

There are probably 10-12. Toney was barely alive.

Toney was befuddled by Jones' blazing speed of hand and foot. Toney, a natural counter puncher, could not get off and was constantly kept off balance. Roy would throw quick/multiple punch combinations, many of which landed, and would get out of the way before Toney could reach him. Simply a bad style matchup for James Toney. In no way do Calzaghe's wins over an old Eubank, Lacy, Veit, Sheika, Ashira, etc equal or surpass Roy's win over an undefeated (44-0) Toney who was near the top of the P4P lists.

[kg0208]

There are probably 10-12. Toney was barely alive.

You got that link yet? Proof that Toney was on life support the night before? Or is this conjecture.

[KO Boxing]

Writing Toney off against Calzaghe is down right pathetic. Toney and Calzaghe are very much even, and a fight between the 2 would be 50-50...

That's the difference between Roy Jones and Calzaghe... Although Toney has achieved twice as much as good ole Joe... No ifs, buts or maybes to that.

[Scar]

There are none...this is a given. That's why I said by accumilation.

Remember, Jones best win at MW is better than Hopkins best win there, but Hopkins is considered the better MW cuz of longevity there.

Yes but Hopkins also beat a lot of great fighters at Middleweight, name 1 great fighter Calzaghe beat. Longetivity is appreciated for sure but also depends on who he spent all the time fighting. Jones moves up to Light Heavyweight and only fights/beats champions and totally cleans the place and people say he fought bums, Calzaghe wins the WBO title and defends it all his career like no other champions in his division exist yet he's the top man all of a sudden?, not in my opinion. I appreciate that he finally decided to fight the man with other belts but why didn't HE do what Kessler did since he has been in the division for a decade now?, why did Kessler have to come and do what Calzaghe was supposed to in only a few years?, is it because Calzaghe doesn't want to travel?, if the answer is that then can anyone be serious about calling someone with that type of attitude a GREAT champion or top Super Middleweight in history?

[Toopretty]

Toney wouldn't be KO'ed by Calzaghe - no if's, no but's, no maybes.

Toney out-slicked boxers who weren't as fast as him and relied on tricks to beat guys that were proven contenders, he however always had issues when boxers were as fast or faster than he was.

Joe would work all night on Toney and make it hard for Toney to do anything - while Toney does have a great chin, even at 160-168 his endurance wasn't the best and while he could slip and avoid punches against normal punchers - against Joe Calzaghe he's not going to slip and avoid for very long

Calzaghe outworks any version of Toney, prime or not.

Sorry but while Calzaghe is not elite to the level of Roy Jones Jr - neither is James Toney.

Toney puts Calzaghe on his ass twice getting two 10-8 rounds and winning 4 more rounds. Toney wins at 168 at prime for prime. Calzaghe jumps in to land his flurries and goes to war and gets tagged by lesser fighters..He would jump in and get clocked by toney and Toney wont get hit by the blund of his power flurry.

[Scar]

There are probably 10-12. Toney was barely alive.

Excuse me? :huh

[Toopretty]

Writing Toney off against Calzaghe is down right pathetic. Toney and Calzaghe are very much even, and a fight between the 2 would be 50-50...

That's the difference between Roy Jones and Calzaghe... Although Toney has achieved twice as much as good ole Joe... No ifs, buts or maybes to that.

:good

[brooklyn1550]

Eubank took Nigel Benn's best bombs at 160 - nothing is more proven than that!

Marvin Hagler took Bennie Briscoe, Tony Sibson, Juan Domingo Roldan, Thomas Hearns, and Cyclone Hart's best punches. He was arguably never down in his career.

James Toney took Samuel Peter's, Iran Barkley's, Evander Holyfield's, and Roy Jones Jr's best punches.

Oliver McCall's chin is every bit as proven

Muhammad Ali's chin is every bit as proven - for Christ's sake, he took George Foreman, Joe Frazier, and Sonny Liston's best shots at heavyweight and wasn't stopped by any of them in 6 combined fights. Not to mention he has also taken shots from Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers (perhaps the hardest puncher ever), Mac Foster, Cleveland Williams, Jerry Quarry, Floyd Patterson, LaMar Clark, Larry Holmes, George Chuvalo, and Oscar Bonavena. Ali never took a 10 count and was never stopped on his feet.

A lot of guys have chins who were equal or better than Chris Eubank.

[kg0208]

Yes but Hopkins also beat a lot of great fighters at Middleweight, name 1 great fighter Calzaghe beat. Longetivity is appreciated for sure but also depends on who he spent all the time fighting. Jones moves up to Light Heavyweight and only fights/beats champions and totally cleans the place and people say he fought bums, Calzaghe wins the WBO title and defends it all his career like no other champions in his division exist yet he's the top man all of a sudden?, not in my opinion. I appreciate that he finally decided to fight the man with other belts but why didn't HE do what Kessler did since he has been in the division for a decade now?, why did Kessler have to come and do what Calzaghe was supposed to in only a few years?, is it because Calzaghe doesn't want to travel?, if the answer is that then can anyone be serious about calling someone with that type of attitude a GREAT champion or top Super Middleweight in history?

Well we all have our opinions on the situation. I never thought Hopkins beat any great MW with Johnson being his most impressive win over a true MW in my view.

But I get where you are coming from.

[Scar]

Well we all have our opinions on the situation. I never thought Hopkins beat any great MW with Johnson being his most impressive win over a true MW in my view.

But I get where you are coming from.

What I said was great fighters. Trinidad/DLH are great fighters whether people think they're not true Middleweights or not doesn't really matter, they made the weight and fought well till they lost. Muhammad Ali was a former Light Heavyweight in the olympics, does that mean that Foreman/Frazier and all the other great fighters he fought and beat lost to a "former Light Heavy"?, definitely not. Good fighters Hopkins beat were: Johnson, Eastman, Joppy, Daniels, Allen, Echols. Those aren't "Great" but pretty solid.

[brooklyn1550]

Quite frankly, none of that matters, Calzaghe doesn't need to KO Toney to win.

Exactly...let's leave it at that

[KO Boxing]

Well we all have our opinions on the situation. I never thought Hopkins beat any great MW with Johnson being his most impressive win over a true MW in my view.

But I get where you are coming from.
I'm gonna admit my ignorance, but was Johnson considered as good a win for Hopkins at the time, as it is today? Not saying it's right or wrong either way, just curious.

[kg0208]

What I said was great fighters. Trinidad/DLH are great fighters whether people think they're not true Middleweights or not doesn't really matter, they made the weight and fought well till they lost. Muhammad Ali was a former Light Heavyweight in the olympics, does that mean that Foreman/Frazier and all the other great fighters he fought and beat lost to a "former Light Heavy"?, definitely not. Good fighters Hopkins beat were: Johnson, Eastman, Joppy, Daniels, Allen, Echols. Those aren't "Great" but pretty solid.

Well we measure resumes differently. I don't put much into beating DLH at 160 or Trinidad at 160. He gets credit for sure, but not the same he would for beating a great fighter at their natural weight. I give Jones little credit for beating Pazienza (a good fighter) or McCallum.

Being a LHW in the olympics is not the same as being a lifelong HW in the pros IMO.

[kg0208]

I'm gonna admit my ignorance, but was Johnson considered as good a win for Hopkins at the time, as it is today? Not saying it's right or wrong either way, just curious.

Johnson was unbeaten and a very good MW. But Hopkins dismantled him completely. Not sure it was considered as good a win then as it is now since Johnson beat Jones.

[KO Boxing]

Exactly...let's leave it at that
I personally think that's being extremely unfair to Toney, and extremely generous to Calzaghe...

Toney is EASILLY Calzaghe's toughest AND closest fight. Calzaghe WOULDN'T be Toney's toughest and closest fight, BY FAR.

[Toopretty]

Hell no...leave at prime Toney beats a prime Calzaghe. They are not in the same league as far as accomplishments but are closer H2H wise. This is shananigans.

[KO Boxing]

Well we measure resumes differently. I don't put much into beating DLH at 160 or Trinidad at 160. He gets credit for sure, but not the same he would for beating a great fighter at their natural weight. I give Jones little credit for beating Pazienza (a good fighter) or McCallum.

Being a LHW in the olympics is not the same as being a lifelong HW in the pros IMO.
Funny thing is, Roy gets absolutely NO credit for the McCallum win (and arguably rightly so). But at the same time, it can be argued that a few of McCallum's wins at light heavy were at least equal to some of those little guys wins at 160 (his win over Jeff Harding was impressive).

And while he is one of my favourites and perhaps a little bias here, McCalllum was a GREAT fighter.

[brooklyn1550]

I personally think that's being extremely unfair to Toney, and extremely generous to Calzaghe...

Toney is EASILLY Calzaghe's toughest AND closest fight. Calzaghe WOULDN'T be Toney's toughest and closest fight, BY FAR.

Don't get me wrong, James Toney was a great fighter and easily the greater fighter (so good all around and so crafty), but this would be a tough fight for both of them. I explained why I think Calzaghe would win a decision and the way I see it, my argument and prediction is not outlandish by any means. It would be Calzaghe's toughest fight, but not Toney's toughest fight considering the multitude of trouble he was given by Roy Jones. My pick stands - Calzaghe by decision.

[brooklyn1550]

Scary Joe couldn't beat Toney at any weight..

James has accomplished so much more than the Welsh Rabbit:deal

Resumes and accomplishments don't fight

[Toopretty]

Toney is often romanticised for no particular reason because he's a loud mouth chump with a bit of flair in the ring and some real solid talent.

To be completely honest, he never could hang with the best of the best.. he was exceptional at beating the Jirov level fighters - A Level fighters, A+? He struggled.

Toney is NOT the type of guy that can beat Calzaghe, anyone who thinks so is just looking past styles and seeing personalities - which is pointless, It's boxing.
.

:nut:nut:nut Now I just seen the light...Calzaghe is an A fighter and Toney cant beat A fighters..Last I hear JT was an A fighter back in the early mid 90s and never fell from grace until his fattness settled in and he still beat top contenders at fucking HEAVYWEIGHT...Guinn..Ruiz..roids or no roids...Drew with Rahman...GETTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT the fuck out of here.......................................:patsch

[KO Boxing]

Toney is often romanticised for no particular reason because he's a loud mouth chump with a bit of flair in the ring and some real solid talent.

To be completely honest, he never could hang with the best of the best.. he was exceptional at beating the Jirov level fighters - A Level fighters, A+? He struggled.

Toney is NOT the type of guy that can beat Calzaghe, anyone who thinks so is just looking past styles and seeing personalities - which is pointless, It's boxing.
At the time Roy fought Toney, Toney had done nearly as much as Joe in his entire career. Undefeated in over 40 fights, 2 weight division world champ, and universally considered a top 3 p4per. ONE thing Toney had done that Calzaghe has yet to do, and might NEVER do, is beat not only ONE but two p4pers.

It's not romantising. It's just how it is. He'a an awesome fighter.

[Scar]

Well we measure resumes differently. I don't put much into beating DLH at 160 or Trinidad at 160. He gets credit for sure, but not the same he would for beating a great fighter at their natural weight. I give Jones little credit for beating Pazienza (a good fighter) or McCallum.

Being a LHW in the olympics is not the same as being a lifelong HW in the pros IMO.

The Muhammad Ali part was just an example. Anyway, why not put much into beating Trinidad?, Trinidad came into this fight the WBA Champion and brutally knocked out Joppy in shocking fashion. I can understand not giving much credit for DLH since he lost to Sturm before meeting Hopkins. Also another interesting point, if Hopkins doesn't deserve much credit for his major wins over Trinidad and DLH because they're not true middleweights does that mean that Tarver's wins over Jones and Johnson's win over Jones aren't good enough because Jones is a former Middleweight?

[Toopretty]

Resumes and accomplishments don't fight

Yes they do...:nut:nut:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl thats what a resume is.... a fight..Skepticism and should of could of would of dont fight...as in Joes case..I seen skill but nothing better then Toney...at all in any scenario... Joe goes to war with lesser fighters....and gets hit and put on his ass. He had a dominate performance over Lacy....WOW.....thats his claim to fame...WOW....

[KO Boxing]

Don't get me wrong, James Toney was a great fighter and easily the greater fighter, but this would be a tough fight for both of them. I explained why I think Calzaghe would win a decision. It would be Calzaghe's toughest fight, but not Toney's toughest fight considering the multitude of trouble he was given by Roy Jones. My pick stands - Calzaghe by decision.
That's completely fair. :good

Calzaghe winning easilly is not. I also feel its a 50-50 fight, perhaps with a slight lean towards Toney, even.

[kg0208]

The Muhammad Ali part was just an example. Anyway, why not put much into beating Trinidad?, Trinidad came into this fight the WBA Champion and brutally knocked out Joppy in shocking fashion. I can understand not giving much credit for DLH since he lost to Sturm before meeting Hopkins. Also another interesting point, if Hopkins doesn't deserve much credit for his major wins over Trinidad and DLH because they're not true middleweights does that mean that Tarver's wins over Jones and Johnson's win over Jones aren't good enough because Jones is a former Middleweight?
Jones had been at LHW for years. Trinidad only one fight at MW before Hopkins. I give Hops credit for beating Trinidad, but not as much as he would get for beating him at 147. Same thing with DLH. But Hopkins gets more for beating Trinidad than DLH.

[Toopretty]

The Muhammad Ali part was just an example. Anyway, why not put much into beating Trinidad?, Trinidad came into this fight the WBA Champion and brutally knocked out Joppy in shocking fashion. I can understand not giving much credit for DLH since he lost to Sturm before meeting Hopkins. Also another interesting point, if Hopkins doesn't deserve much credit for his major wins over Trinidad and DLH because they're not true middleweights does that mean that Tarver's wins over Jones and Johnson's win over Jones aren't good enough because Jones is a former Middleweight?

Thats kind of retarded....did Jones move back down to middleweight..no..could he..no....HOW LONG WAS ROY AT 175........................I think after a few years at a weight and never going back down......I think thats your weight.....Trinidad was a true middle but ODH was damned sure not......ODH impressed me by even being in the fight with Sturm who was a lifetime middle. He lost but by a close margin..and ODH was fat and out of shape and took Sturm lightly.

[brooklyn1550]

Yes they do...:nut:nut:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl thats what a resume is.... a fight..Skepticism and should of could of would of dont fight...as in Joes case..I seen skill but nothing better then Toney...at all in any scenario... Joe goes to war with lesser fighters....and gets hit and put on his ass. He had a dominate performance over Lacy....WOW.....thats his claim to fame...WOW....

I define resume as wins or losses on paper, titles won, time as champion, etc..., not a fight. To analyze a fantasy matchup, one must look at each fighters styles, weaknesses, strengths, and with that information, try to form a prediction as to how they would do against eachother.

If I say "Fighter X has beaten A, B, C, and D who were all Ring Champions and won 6 world titles and would demolish Fighter Y because he has only beaten Fighter E, F, and G and never beat a Ring Champion," that wouldn't be right. You must look further than that.

[brooklyn1550]

Calzaghe winning easilly is not. I also feel its a 50-50 fight, perhaps with a slight lean towards Toney, even.

Nothing wrong with that either. I have no problem with anybody who says Toney would win.:good

And for the record, and anybody, feel free to quote me on this, I think it would be a close fight.

[Scar]

Thats kind of retarded....did Jones move back down to middleweight..no..could he..no....HOW LONG WAS ROY AT 175........................I think after a few years at a weight and never going back down......I think thats your weight.....Trinidad was a true middle but ODH was damned sure not......ODH impressed me by even being in the fight with Sturm who was a lifetime middle. He lost but by a close margin..and ODH was fat and out of shape and took Sturm lightly.

Never said that DLH is and if you read my last post I make it clear that calling the DLH win a "Decent" win instead of a great one is understandable but Trinidad, no. Jones was a Light Heavyweight when he met Tarver, yes I said WAS simply because he was a Heavyweight at the titme and had to move down to make that fight happen. Just incase you didn't notice, the Roy Jones part was yet another example too, according to some people, if you're a former "whatever weight" and lose then the victorious boxer gets no credit because he beat a former "whatever weight" fighter. That theory disgusts me so my discussion was mainly about that point.

[Scar]

Jones had been at LHW for years. Trinidad only one fight. I give Hops credit for beating Trinidad, but not as much as he would get for beating him at 147. Same thing with DLH. But Hopkins gets more for beating Trinidad than DLH.

That's the way I see it too, even though I still believe the win over DLH isn't great but pretty decent and way better than some say it is simply because DLH came in great shape and made the fight competitive for as long as it lasted.

[Toopretty]

Mayorga, gets beat by everyone, beats Forrest who beat Mosley.

Does that mean Mayorga beats Mosley? No.

Toney doesn't have the style nor endurance to beat Calzaghe at 168 - nor the power to hurt Calzaghe at 168.

Thats a joke...JT at 168 had hand speed good movement...better defense ...Calzaghe had nothing to hurt JT or even beat him..JT fought the whole 12 and I never seen him gas out in which he lost b/c of it...As I said..Calzaghe got ROCKED by the same counter right hand that Toney would throw and Catch him with when he tries to go on swarm which he does every fight..Calzaghe got DROPPED...Toney would drop him...

[kg0208]

That's the way I see it too, even though I still believe the win over DLH isn't great but pretty decent and way better than some say it is simply because DLH came in great shape and made the fight competitive for as long as it lasted.

You know oddly enough, whenever I say DLH was competitive in that fight before Hopkins stopped him (much more than I thought he would be) they tell me I am nuts. Glad I am not the only one who saw it that way.

[Scar]

You know oddly enough, whenever I say DLH was competitive in that fight before Hopkins stopped him (much more than I thought he would be) they tell me I am nuts. Glad I am not the only one who saw it that way.

:good

[Scar]

Bare in mind an inexperienced, nervous Toney had been in with Nunn (and beat him to boot). Nunn is arguably the most talented fighter of the last 20 years.

That's my point too, if you mention any fighter that is considered great you will find REALLY major and impressive victories behind the greatness. Care to find any in Joe Calzaghe's career?, I'm not asking for a lot just 1.

[KO Boxing]

That's my point too, if you mention any fighter that is considered great you will find REALLY major and impressive victories behind the greatness. Care to find any in Joe Calzaghe's career?, I'm not asking for a lot just 1.
I'm suprised no one has replied with the usual, "oh but everyone thought Lacy was going to knock him out before they fought"...

[Lance_Uppercut]

Toney doesn't have the style nor endurance to beat Calzaghe at 168 - nor the power to hurt Calzaghe at 168.

I taje it you've never seen James Tony fight in the 90's? If you are going to say he doesn't have the style, why not indulge us in that rather then making a generic proclimation like that.

TOney's one of the best defensive fighters to come the past 20 years. Not only was he a great counter puncher, but he could initiate it as well.

Calzaghe's swarming style would allow him to be open too much, as Toney was an accurate puncher at that.

The part about endurance is utter BS with nothing to back a statement at all.

[Toopretty]

I taje it you've never seen James Tony fight in the 90's? If you are going to say he doesn't have the style, why not indulge us in that rather then making a generic proclimation like that.

TOney's one of the best defensive fighters to come the past 20 years. Not only was he a great counter puncher, but he could initiate it as well.

Calzaghe's swarming style would allow him to be open too much, as Toney was an accurate puncher at that.

The part about endurance is utter BS with nothing to back a statement at all.


OMG...I cannot believe me an you agree on a topic..any topic..This is a first.

[Scar]

I'm suprised no one has replied with the usual, "oh but everyone thought Lacy was going to knock him out before they fought"...

I'm one of the people that thought Lacy was going to knock him out because I'm a Lacy fan and was surprised. But I'll also be honest, Lacy has had 21 fights when he met Calzaghe and Calzaghe nearly had DOUBLE the amount of fights Lacy had and also amateur experience, like Lacy. If that's the biggest win then it's funny, the reason why many people were picking Lacy is because not many knew why to pick Calzaghe since there was nothing much to brag about in terms of accomplishments.

[box03]

I'm one of the people that thought Lacy was going to knock him out because I'm a Lacy fan and was surprised. But I'll also be honest, Lacy has had 21 fights when he met Calzaghe and Calzaghe nearly had DOUBLE the amount of fights Lacy had and also amateur experience, like Lacy. If that's the biggest win then it's funny, the reason why many people were picking Lacy is because not many knew why to pick Calzaghe since there was nothing much to brag about in terms of accomplishments. Thats funny you said that, I knew more about Lacy than I did Calzaghe. Who was the betting favorite in that fight?

[Scar]

Thats funny you said that, I knew more about Lacy than I did Calzaghe. Who was the betting favorite in that fight?

I believe it was Calzaghe, can't really remember but it was very close.

[brooklyn1550]

Who was the betting favorite in that fight?

Lacy came to England as the undefeated IBF champ and a slight betting favourite with both the bookies, boxing writers and many fans.

From...
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

[Amsterdam]

I believe it was Calzaghe, can't really remember but it was very close.

Lacy was a 5 to 1 favourite, I remember because I made a bundle betting on JC.

[box03]

I believe it was Calzaghe, can't really remember but it was very close. I would of lost alot of money that night for sure, I mean I knew Calzaghe was champ for a long time but I also knew he was fighting nobodys in his own country just to run up his record.

[Scar]

Lacy was a 5 to 1 favourite, I remember because I made a bundle betting on JC.

You sure it wasn't close?, I really remember checking one of the sites on fight night( a few hours before the card starts) and it was really close. Might be wrong again, my memory totally sucks lately.

[Scar]

I would of lost alot of money that night for sure, I mean I knew Calzaghe was champ for a long time but I also knew he was fighting nobodys in his own country just to run up his record.

:lol: :lol:

[Amsterdam]

I would of lost alot of money that night for sure, I mean I knew Calzaghe was champ for a long time but I also knew he was fighting nobodys in his own country just to run up his record.

Shows what you know.:D

[Toopretty]

Shows what you know.:D

Shut up..prime Bhop JT and Roy beat calzaghe no matter how much you dont like it. Calzaghe would never be mentioned in the same breath as those guys....EVER...

[Amsterdam]

Shut up..prime Bhop JT and Roy beat calzaghe no matter how much you dont like it. Calzaghe would never be mentioned in the same breath as those guys....EVER...

Ahem...

Shows what you know.:D

[box03]

Shows what you know.:D Yeah it was about time Calzaghe fought a good american fighter, its probably the most prize money he ever got for a fight. Calzaghe fought a great fight that night that made me take notice of him.

[brooklyn1550]

Shut up..prime Bhop JT and Roy beat calzaghe no matter how much you dont like it. Calzaghe would never be mentioned in the same breath as those guys....EVER...

He could be if he beats Mikkel Kessler, Lucian Bute, Bernard Hopkins, the winner of Jermain Taylor/Kelly Pavlik, and Chad Dawson. That would make him a 2 division world champion (and actually the champion). Plus, if he did that, he would retire 48-0 with potentially 24 title defenses.

Joe probably needs to beat Kessler, Hopkins, Dawson, and the winner of Taylor/Pavlik to secure his place right up there with those 3.

[Amsterdam]

He could be if he beats Mikkel Kessler, Lucian Bute, Bernard Hopkins, the winner of Jermain Taylor/Kelly Pavlik, and Chad Dawson. That would make him a 2 division world champion (and actually the champion). Plus, if he did that, he would retire 48-0 with potentially 24 title defenses.

Joe probably needs to beat Kessler, Hopkins, Dawson, and the winner of Taylor/Pavlik to secure his place right up there with those 3.

Hopkins is too old, that would be worthlles.

Beating Kessler, the Taylor/Pavlik winner and Dawson ends all questions, especially if they DOMINATIVE victories. How a fight is won counts for a lot.

For example, dominating Kessler and Dawson ought to be considered way better than a come from behind KO over Nunn, which is one of Toney's biggest wins.

Plus, losing to Taylor is pretty sour in my opinion, but again, he's old, Calzaghe would stop him at this point and would recieve no credit.

[Amsterdam]

Yeah it was about time Calzaghe fought a good american fighter, its probably the most prize money he ever got for a fight. Calzaghe fought a great fight that night that made me take notice of him.

Yes, about time he got the oppurtunity, time for circle jerkers to stop ducking. Too bad it had to be against a guy who was overrated, but it sent a reality check to the boxing media.

[Toopretty]

Hopkins is too old, that would be worthlles.

Beating Kessler, the Taylor/Pavlik winner and Dawson ends all questions, especially if they DOMINATIVE victories. How a fight is won counts for a lot.

For example, dominating Kessler and Dawson ought to be considered way better than a come from behind KO over Nunn, which is one of Toney's biggest wins.

Plus, losing to Taylor is pretty sour in my opinion, but again, he's old, Calzaghe would stop him at this point and would recieve no credit.

Calzaghe would NEVER EVER EVER be able to stop BHop a fighter that has fought the better fighter in ROY JONES JR in his prime and was not close to being stopped EVER....GET a clue you dillusional twat.:nut:nut:nut:nut:nut:nut

[brooklyn1550]

I think a win over Bernard Hopkins would mean a lot for Calzaghe. Hopkins is the 4th best P4P fighter in Ring Magazine and is the Ring 175 pound champion. Plus a HOFer coming off of two excellent wins wouldn't be a bad thing for Joe's resume. In my opinion, when people look back on him and if they saw Calzaghe UD12 Hopkins (Joe wouldn't stop him), he would get more respect.

[box03]

Yes, about time he got the oppurtunity, time for circle jerkers to stop ducking. Too bad it had to be against a guy who was overrated, but it sent a reality check to the boxing media. He probably wishes he would of came to the states years ago, then again the middlewieght division was filled with alot of great fighters that could of gave him a tough fight like Jones, Hopkins, or Toney.

[Amsterdam]

Allow me to explain myself.

Hopkins is 42 years old, he is crafty and can hide this by fighting the right guys, but he is not even 50% of his peak ability and has to fight very paced. Against Calzaghe, he'd be dead exhausted after four rounds considering the pace and it'd just get worse from there.

He is 42 years old, it is absurd for him to be considered a top 5 P4P fighter at this point, especially with the losses to Taylor on paper. Taylor had him ultra conservative/paced, as did Wright, only Wright couldn't impose himself as a smaller man.

Now, what does Calzaghe do? He fights at a frantic pace non-stop, this is poison for Hopkins and Hopkins gets thrashed, he's a 42 year old fighter.

[brooklyn1550]

Calzaghe would outwork Hopkins at this stage and win a decision, but Hopkins ring generalship, counter punching, and defense would prevent Calzaghe from getting off at quite the same frantic pace. Hopkins, despite being 42 is still an elite fighter who has the stamina, toughness, and defense to last the distance against anybody from 160-175.

[warrior85]

because the majority of people only heard of him or respected him after he blitzed lacy,people who've followed joe for years like i have know hes faced some good tough opponents.

[Boro chris]

His best opponent to date was Jeff Lacy...Robin Reid and was average no matter what you UK posters say. All of the European fighters he fought mainly were very extra average fighters and those are the better ones. Eubank was on his way out and gave Calzaghe a run. He is a great fighter but there is no defending his crap resume in which you cant even mention Roy's resume in the same breath as Calzaghe...Roy took on tougher guys in the 90s alone Then Calzaghe did his whole entire career.

Lacy was not as good as a faded Eubank imo. And JC was a complete novice when he took Chris on.
And Robin Reid was not 'average' no matter what you septics say!

[Max Molyneux]

He fought good oposition. I was taking it to beat kessler until kessler schooled andrade. Now i consider kessler have fought better oposition than calzaghe.

Andrade has never beaten a top 10 fighter.:patsch

[pioterbezkitu]

Couse it's trash

[China_hand_Joe]

Starie was class, just see what he did to a current LHW titlist for evidence.

People were really talking Starie up back then.

[PrideOfWales]

A talent like JC will not be fully appreciated until he is long gone out of the sport. Having said that, Joe is his own worst enemy. He's got a reputation within the sport by pulling out of one of the fights with Glen Johnson without a valid reason and almost bailing in the Lacy fight. He should have forced ******'s hand earlier to get decent opposition but Joe has been content plodding along. The biggest disappointment for me is that we will never truely know just how great Joe Calzaghe was. He had all the talent in the world to be competetive with, and I believe, had at least a 50/50 chance against ANYBODY from 160-175 during the past 10 years.

He's beat some solid opposition, a lot of boxers who are unheralded but very useful: punchers, counter punchers, bangers, brawlers, technical boxers.. Has he been pushed enough? No. Has he fought some embarrasing bums? Yes. Is his opposition any worse than RJJ? Slightly, but not much. Is it possible that in his mid 30's he's still better than anyone else in and around his division even though he should be past his prime? We'll find out 3rd November - for many, a convincing win will only make it harder to accept the frustration that he never fought a prime RJJ, Ottke, BHop et al.

I've enjoyed following his career, he's exciting and exceptional. To me, he has nothing to prove - the entertainment value and skills of Joe Calzaghe in the ring, once you get him there, are second to none. Enjoy him while he's around, because I reckon we've only got about an hour's worth of this great talent left in a boxing ring.

[sjc]

Calzaghe's opposition is average. It's not great, it's not bad, it's average.

He's fought proven elite fighters like Eubank.
He's fought solid contenders like Reid and Woodhall
He's fought awkward fighters like Salem and Bika
He's fought up and coming fighters like Lacy, Veit and a young Sheika
He's fought decent, top ten rated fighters like Mkertchian, Mitchell, Brewer

Lacy and Eubank are the only "named" fighters he's fought, sure - but he's in the SMW division - a division that has had two fatal flaws in the time that Calzaghe has been around

Flaw 1: It has been bereft of 'big name' fighters largely due to the legacy of fighters directly above and directly below. Fighters weren't getting past Hopkins at Middleweight and Fighters saw more money with Jones Jr at LHW - SMW was not a glamour division and as such, did not attract glamour (read, American known) fighters during Calzaghe's time period.

Calzaghe, being committed to defending his belt and wanting to establish himself as the greatest in his weight class never looked at going down in weight or up in weight - however he did put his feelers out for a Bernard Hopkins fight in 2002 that was all but signed until Hopkins demanded double money.

Flaw 2: Sven Ottke would not fight Joe Calzaghe. Ottke during his time was the only other fighter who a spotless record who held a title belt . (Despite Ottke having lost at least four fights in my eyes).

The SMW division had a bunch of talent that except for Calzaghe, were not standing tall above one another - people were trading wins and losses and until Lacy and now Kessler, no one really rised above the competition as a solid threat and contender to Calzaghe.

Excepting Ottke - the only two "dominant" fighters at SMW outside of Joe Calzaghe, were Jeff Lacy and now Mikkel Kessler

Both who he has/will be fighting and both he he has/will beat.

People can bitch and moan all they want about "Why didn't Joe go down to 160 or up to 175" - the fact is, he didn't - he has however fought the best available fighters in his division, a division he has cleared out and is about to clear out once more.

yep :deal