TOP 20 Heavyweights NEW LIST

[Bummy Davis]

1) Joe Louis best power/combo puncher ever
2)Rocky Marciano fought only in prime, power,stamina,will
3)Muhamad Ali.......... excellent resume, showman, fast hands,feet
4)Jersey Joe Walcott....Sleeper of the division, great boxer/puncher
5)Lennox Lewis........... Great offence and could box well/best big man
6)Jack Dempsey......... Raw power & killer instinct
7)George Foreman........Power,size....raw
8)Joe Frazier..............Stamina, heart and a great left hook
9)Evander Holyfield.......Heart and fought all..(Tyson Win)
10)Mike Tyson...........Great Puncher..could have ended better
11)Jack Johnson........Master at defense and crafty
12)Jim Jeffires...........Strong, Stamina
12) Sonny Liston.......Strong fighter tarnished by ALI fights
13)Sam Langford.......Power and aggresive savy
14)Larry Holmes........great Jab...missed best fights of his era
15) Ezzard Charles......Great hook off of the right,,punching boxer
16) Harry Wills..........Beat the best black fighters in a strong era
17) Max Baer...........KiLLER Power...undisiplined
18) Max Schmeling.....Smart...boxer with power
19) Jack Sharkey......underated
20) Jerry Quarry......Beat the best of the big slow punchers,Shaver,Lyle,Foster,Spencer,etc.


I know this will change and is open to remarks but rate 20...I had to share the 12 spot to fit 20 and had some trouble trying to fit the 1st 10 but top 20 is not bad

[PetethePrince]

I know you're hard on Holmes but #14 is a bit too harsh. Schmeling a bit too low for my liking. Dempsey is too far ahead of Johnson, or vice versa (Johnson too far behind Dempsey). Not bad... #4 is gutsy and your #2 will amount much criticism. Ali at #3 is tough considering his resume, abilities, and accomplishments.

[ironchamp]

1) Joe Louis best power/combo puncher ever
2)Rocky Marciano fought only in prime, power,stamina,will
3)Muhamad Ali.......... excellent resume, showman, fast hands,feet
4)Jersey Joe Walcott....Sleeper of the division, great boxer/puncher
5)Lennox Lewis........... Great offence and could box well/best big man
6)Jack Dempsey......... Raw power & killer instinct
7)George Foreman........Power,size....raw
8)Joe Frazier..............Stamina, heart and a great left hook
9)Evander Holyfield.......Heart and fought all..(Tyson Win)
10)Mike Tyson...........Great Puncher..could have ended better
11)Jack Johnson........Master at defense and crafty
12)Jim Jeffires...........Strong, Stamina
12) Sonny Liston.......Strong fighter tarnished by ALI fights
13)Sam Langford.......Power and aggresive savy
14)Larry Holmes........great Jab...missed best fights of his era
15) Ezzard Charles......Great hook off of the right,,punching boxer
16) Harry Wills..........Beat the best black fighters in a strong era
17) Max Baer...........KiLLER Power...undisiplined
18) Max Schmeling.....Smart...boxer with power
19) Jack Sharkey......underated
20) Jerry Quarry......Beat the best of the big slow punchers,Shaver,Lyle,Foster,Spencer,etc.


I know this will change and is open to remarks but rate 20...I had to share the 12 spot to fit 20 and had some trouble trying to fit the 1st 10 but top 20 is not bad

I know its a subjective sport but you're reaching here.

Quarry instead of Bowe? W. Klitschko? Patterson?
Jersey Joe has no business at the number 4 spot.
Ali at number 3 is a big bold.
Larry Holmes at 14 is no longer a matter of opinion its borderline disrespectful.

[SuzieQ49]

Honestly, I love the jersey joe pick. even if I think its a bit too high, he generally is rated too low in most fans list today. I think he is top 10-12 material. He certainly could beat any man on that top 10 list. He was well ahead on the cards vs your # 1 and # 2.

[Seamus]

wow, truly ridiculous list. we all create our own realities in which to live.

happy life.

[junior-soprano]

Larry Holmes at 14 is no longer a matter of opinion its borderline disrespectful.

i agree with this and what i am gonna say now is not disrespectful but true. everybody is intitle to his own opinion but somebody putting larry holmes outside a top 10 ain't sain in the head. then we can also make a list and ask a 7 year old kid or a chimpansee to point out the numbers 1 to 20.
second : do you really believe that marciano and jersey joe can beat al those guys come after them on the list ??
same as dempsey. i have great respect for him but do you really see dempsey beating the likes of foreman and liston (who is shamefully low on you're list) ??
btw here is my list
1 ali 7 frazier 13 norton
2 louis 8 tyson 14 marciano
3 holmes 9 dempsey
4 liston 10 baer
5 foreman 11 johnson
6 lewis 12 holyfield
after this it becomes all to close to eachother. by the way i based my ranking not on there resume or something but truely on the fact who will beat who.. in my opnion

[fists of fury]

I could live with that list if you switch Walcott and Holmes. Those are the only two that for me seem a bit out of place...

[Boilermaker]

Of all the picks, i have to say, Jerry Quarry at number 20 is probably the most difficult to justify.

[Stevie G]

For my top three I would have Muhammad Ali at number 1. Followed by Joe Louis and Larry Holmes respectively.

[ChrisPontius]

1) Joe Louis best power/combo puncher ever
2)Rocky Marciano fought only in prime, power,stamina,will
3)Muhamad Ali.......... excellent resume, showman, fast hands,feet
4)Jersey Joe Walcott....Sleeper of the division, great boxer/puncher
5)Lennox Lewis........... Great offence and could box well/best big man
6)Jack Dempsey......... Raw power & killer instinct
7)George Foreman........Power,size....raw
8)Joe Frazier..............Stamina, heart and a great left hook
9)Evander Holyfield.......Heart and fought all..(Tyson Win)
10)Mike Tyson...........Great Puncher..could have ended better
11)Jack Johnson........Master at defense and crafty
12)Jim Jeffires...........Strong, Stamina
12) Sonny Liston.......Strong fighter tarnished by ALI fights
13)Sam Langford.......Power and aggresive savy
14)Larry Holmes........great Jab...missed best fights of his era
15) Ezzard Charles......Great hook off of the right,,punching boxer
16) Harry Wills..........Beat the best black fighters in a strong era
17) Max Baer...........KiLLER Power...undisiplined
18) Max Schmeling.....Smart...boxer with power
19) Jack Sharkey......underated
20) Jerry Quarry......Beat the best of the big slow punchers,Shaver,Lyle,Foster,Spencer,etc.


I know this will change and is open to remarks but rate 20...I had to share the 12 spot to fit 20 and had some trouble trying to fit the 1st 10 but top 20 is not bad

Certainly an original list, but i have two questions:

-Ezzard Charles' accomplishments at heavyweight are very similar to Walcott's. Head-to-head they're 2-2. How come Walcott is at #4 and Charles at #15?

-Holmes at #14, i'm sure you have your reasons, and i'll be the first to point at his lacklustre choice of opponents and avoiding of rematches, but his consistency, impressive all-round ability and title reign should put him in the top10, in my opinion.

[groove]

no way is walcott top 10 - here's my list :-

ali, louis, holmes, foreman, tyson (80s), frazier, lewis, johnson, liston, marciano, dempsey, holyfield, tunney, jeffries, bowe, patterson, wills, charles, walcott, langford.

[Bummy Davis]

Certainly an original list, but i have two questions:

-Ezzard Charles' accomplishments at heavyweight are very similar to Walcott's. Head-to-head they're 2-2. How come Walcott is at #4 and Charles at #15?

-Holmes at #14, i'm sure you have your reasons, and i'll be the first to point at his lacklustre choice of opponents and avoiding of rematches, but his consistency, impressive all-round ability and title reign should put him in the top10, in my opinion.

I hate to say it but my rating change from 4 to 20 very often...I know Holmes is low but if I think Johnson and Jeffires are close so I package them. Lately I have been focusing on the old group again and do I put Holmes before that group. Charles is close to Walcott but I just think Joe had a better in and out counter/punching style and had power and craftyness as well, I see him upsetting some of the top guys (as he almost did vs Marciano and Louis) I think he could beat the boxers and the punchers...Joe was erratic but I love his style and think he could be put into any era and cause havok.. I never rated Wills but because I have Dempsey and Langford high I give him the respect...Joe Louis is unmovable to me and I have a personal favorite in Marciano (love his style heart,conditioning,power) and think he is underated..Marciano career was a snapshot of perfection but he only had 6 defences and got out with 3-4 fights left close to prime) I know it would meet with criticisim but WE all have our own personal favorites...Ali was great and he could be number 2 but I feel he gets overated by some and top 3 is top 3. I was watching Quarry fights and was at the Garden for his fights against Foster, Shavers,Lyle and saw him at the collisium vs Joe Alexander...I hear some much worship over Lyle,Shavers,Foster and Quarry dominated them so I gave him some props...Is he top 20...hard to judge but he made my list this time....I have always had trouble with making the list beyond 10 and leaving some out but I think a solution would be to double up some...head to head is hard to do when you are blending era's. In the heavyweight division alone...Training weights and steriods have changed a lot in that division so I try and merge ( example if Lenno Lewis was fighting in the 40's and if he had to train for 15 rds under the conditioning of the time how would he look and if Jim Jeffires was fighting 12 rds instead of 20 would he be training more for a fast start at a furious pace like Louis, Marciano and Ali's era era in the 40.s 50's and 60's.....This is very hard and it is not written in stone....just fun and a mutable opinion that will not mean much anywhere but for us guys at ESB for a day or so....by the way how have you been Chris...

[rm36]

1) Joe Louis best power/combo puncher ever
2)Rocky Marciano fought only in prime, power,stamina,will
3)Muhamad Ali.......... excellent resume, showman, fast hands,feet
4)Jersey Joe Walcott....Sleeper of the division, great boxer/puncher
5)Lennox Lewis........... Great offence and could box well/best big man
6)Jack Dempsey......... Raw power & killer instinct
7)George Foreman........Power,size....raw
8)Joe Frazier..............Stamina, heart and a great left hook
9)Evander Holyfield.......Heart and fought all..(Tyson Win)
10)Mike Tyson...........Great Puncher..could have ended better
11)Jack Johnson........Master at defense and crafty
12)Jim Jeffires...........Strong, Stamina
12) Sonny Liston.......Strong fighter tarnished by ALI fights
13)Sam Langford.......Power and aggresive savy
14)Larry Holmes........great Jab...missed best fights of his era
15) Ezzard Charles......Great hook off of the right,,punching boxer
16) Harry Wills..........Beat the best black fighters in a strong era
17) Max Baer...........KiLLER Power...undisiplined
18) Max Schmeling.....Smart...boxer with power
19) Jack Sharkey......underated
20) Jerry Quarry......Beat the best of the big slow punchers,Shaver,Lyle,Foster,Spencer,etc.


I know this will change and is open to remarks but rate 20...I had to share the 12 spot to fit 20 and had some trouble trying to fit the 1st 10 but top 20 is not bad

The difference between Marciano and Holmes, given their records, confuses me.

[mr. magoo]

I like Walcott, but #4 is absurdly high. Ali should not be lower than Marciano or Louis. Holmes at 14 is an injustice. Quarry was one of my favorite fighters, but no way does he belong in the top 20. Dempsey has no place in the top 10, or certainly not at #6.

[janitor]

1) Joe Louis best power/combo puncher ever
2)Rocky Marciano fought only in prime, power,stamina,will
3)Muhamad Ali.......... excellent resume, showman, fast hands,feet
4)Jersey Joe Walcott....Sleeper of the division, great boxer/puncher
5)Lennox Lewis........... Great offence and could box well/best big man
6)Jack Dempsey......... Raw power & killer instinct
7)George Foreman........Power,size....raw
8)Joe Frazier..............Stamina, heart and a great left hook
9)Evander Holyfield.......Heart and fought all..(Tyson Win)
10)Mike Tyson...........Great Puncher..could have ended better
11)Jack Johnson........Master at defense and crafty
12)Jim Jeffires...........Strong, Stamina
12) Sonny Liston.......Strong fighter tarnished by ALI fights
13)Sam Langford.......Power and aggresive savy
14)Larry Holmes........great Jab...missed best fights of his era
15) Ezzard Charles......Great hook off of the right,,punching boxer
16) Harry Wills..........Beat the best black fighters in a strong era
17) Max Baer...........KiLLER Power...undisiplined
18) Max Schmeling.....Smart...boxer with power
19) Jack Sharkey......underated
20) Jerry Quarry......Beat the best of the big slow punchers,Shaver,Lyle,Foster,Spencer,etc.


I know this will change and is open to remarks but rate 20...I had to share the 12 spot to fit 20 and had some trouble trying to fit the 1st 10 but top 20 is not bad

The most controvertial pick is bound to be Jersey Joe at #4.

Now if all you knew of Walcott was from watching highlight footage of him then you might conclude that you were looking at a top 5 all time heavyweight.

As it is we have to take his losses into account.

You will be aware that I am a big Walcott proponent and have often wondered how his career might have turned out if he had enjoyed the same sort of backing as Joe Louis, but I still couldn't justify a top 5 ranking.

[PetethePrince]

I like Walcott, but #4 is absurdly high. Ali should not be lower than Marciano or Louis. Holmes at 14 is an injustice. Quarry was one of my favorite fighters, but no way does he belong in the top 20. Dempsey has no place in the top 10, or certainly not at #6.

Depends on your criteria.

[essexboy]

A noob would be laughed off the site for this list. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but this is a complete disgrace.

[SuzieQ49]

Jersey Joe Walcott is a God. I am not joking.

[essexboy]

Jersey Joe Walcott is a God. I am not joking.

I have nothing against Jersey Joe and if someone had him in the lower reaches of the top ten I would certainly accept that but at no.4 is just ridiculous.

[Bummy Davis]

I am a big fan of Walcott, sandwiched in between the 2 greatest 15 rd late power punchers Ever in the heavyweight division. Like I said he was erratic and had a less than stella start ( like a Freddie Pembleton or Art Kettles or Saol Mamby even a Fritzie Zivic) but what emerged was a late bloomer with power and skill. Do I think on a given night he could upset Ali...YES..and do a much better job than light hitting Young, Do I think he could upset Foreman, ABSOLUTLEY, Could he beat Dempsey, YES, Mike Tyson Yes...he almost beat Louis and Marciano...and at 37 he was a serious force to be reckoned with Hopkins and Toney showed us some fighters improve with age, well Walcott was completely fit and almost upset the 2 best late rd power punchers ever....Its only my opinion but I have spoken to some serious boxing minds like Buddy McGirt, Flash Gordon,Al Certo,Tommy Gallagher and they all have Walcott rated highly and feel on a given night he could have upset the best....Could you imagine if he had to only fight 12 rds

[djanders]

I am currently revisiting my all-time heavyweight list, looking at all the top heavyweights again, and trying to expand my list to a top 50. It will probably be my last list, and will be copied and passed on to my descendants along with other lists and thoughts I have. Walcott at #4 is interesting. I have never had him that high, and have never seen him that high before on another serious list. I will take another look at him while I am at it. I have always liked Jersey Joe, loved watching his fights. He's given me many great memories. Thanks for making me think about him again, Bummy Davis! :good

[MrMarvel]

Ok, here comes a rant. Sorry...

Yes, of course, giving Walcott the number 4 spot makes no sense. But then finding a spot for Walcott in the top 10 makes no sense, either.

The problem for Walcott devotees is that Walcott is neither good enough nor did anything deserving of a top 10 ranking.

Do people really believe that Walcott would beat any of the following in a fight in which both were on top of their game: Muhammad Ali, Larry Holmes, George Foreman, Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield, Lennox Lewis, Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, or Rocky Marciano?

We know he lost to the last three names. Properly trained and motivated, even a badly faded Joe Louis clobbered Walcott. Ezzard Charles twice defeated him by wide margins. Yes, Walcott caught lightning in a bottle one night, but Ezzard was in his 76th fight and, as a light heavyweight long fighting as a heavyweight, his vulnerability to a clean shot was understandable. (I hear tell he recover his old form in the fourth encounter.) Marciano knocked out Walcott with a single punch. Twice.

Let's be honest: Walcott's record is miserable. He lost 18 times against 51 wins. Of those 18 losses, six were by way of knockout. He was knocked out by Abe Simon, Abe Ettore, and Tiger Jack Fox. Fox whipped Walcott on points in the rematch. Walcott lost to tough but rather ordinary light heavyweight Joey Maxim and only managed majority and split decisions over him in subsequent rematches. He twice lost to natural light heavyweight Charles (by wide margins in the first fight 73-77, 72-78, and 72-78, and even wider margins in the rematch of 70-80, 66-84, and 67-83, as well as being dropped for a 9 count). He lost to Rex Layne by scores of 2-6, 3-6, 3-6 in a fight in which he was a 4-1 favorite. Look, when you are that cleanly outboxed by Rex Layne there is no spot for you on a top ten list. No way. No how. Walcott even lost to 11-15-1 Johnny Allen. Who?????

What did Walcott ever do on the positive side of the ledger to draw our attention? One thing: he became (at that time) the oldest heavyweight champion. Interesting fact, but hardly one that carries you way up the list of all-time greats (otherwise Foreman would be the grestest). What were Walcott's notable wins? He had one: that seventh round one-punch knockout of Ezzard Charles. His first fight with Louis was noticed only because it was so surprising that a fighter with Walcott's record could do so well against the legend. But we all kow the score there. Yes, Walcott was boxing well against Rocky Marciano. Boxing well against Marciano is not magic.

That's the worst part about this list. But it gets hardly better after fixing this grand error. There are other grand errors. Larry Holmes at number 14? Taken by itself, this ranking makes the list illegitimate as a serious contribution to the discussion (combined with the Walcott ranking and one's head swim). I rank Holmes at number 2, and while that may be too high, at least I'm in the ballpark of reasonable interpretation of the historical record. Number 14? Get outta here!

Finally, what on earth is Rocky Marciano doing way up there? This guy was reportedly out-hustled by Tex Lowry and Roland LaStarza. He struggled against Jersey Joe Walcott for 12 rounds before finding the punch to end Walcott's one successful title defense reign.

[Bummy Davis]

Ok, here comes a rant. Sorry...

Yes, of course, giving Walcott the number 4 spot makes no sense. But then finding a spot for Walcott in the top 10 makes no sense, either.

The problem for Walcott devotees is that Walcott is neither good enough nor did anything deserving of a top 10 ranking.

Do people really believe that Walcott would beat any of the following in a fight in which both were on top of their game: Muhammad Ali, Larry Holmes, George Foreman, Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield, Lennox Lewis, Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, or Rocky Marciano?

We know he lost to the last three names. Properly trained and motivated, even a badly faded Joe Louis clobbered Walcott. Ezzard Charles twice defeated him by wide margins. Yes, Walcott caught lightning in a bottle one night, but Ezzard was in his 76th fight and, as a light heavyweight long fighting as a heavyweight, his vulnerability to a clean shot was understandable. (I hear tell he recover his old form in the fourth encounter.) Marciano knocked out Walcott with a single punch. Twice.

Let's be honest: Walcott's record is miserable. He lost 18 times against 51 wins. Of those 18 losses, six were by way of knockout. He was knocked out by Abe Simon, Abe Ettore, and Tiger Jack Fox. Fox whipped Walcott on points in the rematch. Walcott lost to tough but rather ordinary light heavyweight Joey Maxim and only managed majority and split decisions over him in subsequent rematches. He twice lost to natural light heavyweight Charles (by wide margins in the first fight 73-77, 72-78, and 72-78, and even wider margins in the rematch of 70-80, 66-84, and 67-83, as well as being dropped for a 9 count). He lost to Rex Layne by scores of 2-6, 3-6, 3-6 in a fight in which he was a 4-1 favorite. Look, when you are that cleanly outboxed by Rex Layne there is no spot for you on a top ten list. No way. No how. Walcott even lost to 11-15-1 Johnny Allen. Who?????

What did Walcott ever do on the positive side of the ledger to draw our attention? One thing: he became (at that time) the oldest heavyweight champion. Interesting fact, but hardly one that carries you way up the list of all-time greats (otherwise Foreman would be the grestest). What were Walcott's notable wins? He had one: that seventh round one-punch knockout of Ezzard Charles. His first fight with Louis was noticed only because it was so surprising that a fighter with Walcott's record could do so well against the legend. But we all kow the score there. Yes, Walcott was boxing well against Rocky Marciano. Boxing well against Marciano is not magic.

That's the worst part about this list. But it gets hardly better after fixing this grand error. There are other grand errors. Larry Holmes at number 14? Taken by itself, this ranking makes the list illegitimate as a serious contribution to the discussion (combined with the Walcott ranking and one's head swim). I rank Holmes at number 2, and while that may be too high, at least I'm in the ballpark of reasonable interpretation of the historical record. Number 14? Get outta here!

Finally, what on earth is Rocky Marciano doing way up there? This guy was reportedly out-hustled by Tex Lowry and Roland LaStarza. He struggled against Jersey Joe Walcott for 12 rounds before finding the punch to end Walcott's one successful title defense reign.


I already explained in a previous post why I rate Holmes at 14, it was a choice of lowering Johnson and Jeffires and I could not rate Holmes over Tyson because I dont see any version of Holmes beating Tyson with the right hand vulnerability Holmes showed. Also Larry avoided the best of his time and never unified the crown. It amazes me how so many smart fight people overlook these points. Holmes avoided Page, Dokes,Weaver rematch,Thomas,Coetzee and would not rematch Witherspoon or WILLIAMS. Should I rate Holmes over Johnson or Jeffires who fought the best of there era, It troubled me.

Walcott on the other hand I said was erratic but he beat Joe Louis in the 1st fight and boxed a masterpeice in the 2nd fight until he got cocky and got caught in a 6 peice Killer combo by the best power/punching Heavyweight I have ever seen. Walcott was erratic as I stated but he did fight some tough and avoided black fighters of the era and beat them...some of his victories were over Jimmy Bivens,Elmer Ray,Lee Q Murry,Harold Johnson,Curtis Sheppard,and Ezzard Charles and his KO in 7 over Charles was one of the best one punch KO's I have ever seen. He also beat Joe Baski,Omelio Agramonte, Ollie Tandberg, Lee Oma and Hein Ten Hoff and beat Joey Maxim 2 times and when he beat the avoided Elmer Ray, Ray was on a 49 fight win streak with 44 KO's...Walcott was sandwiched between Louis and Marciano a tough task, but I think he acquitted himself very well and came close to winning and I think that man had the style to upset many of the best on a good night.

.Like I said before my lists have changed from 4-20 everytime I do them because in reality it is differcult to merge the era' and be fair to all of them and come up with a top 10 and the only current fighter in for consideration is Holyfield because his better days are behind him. When the Klitxcko's careers are done I will have to look again but it is hard to rate so many fighters and not be fair.

My criteria is DID they fight the best of there time ( and I lowered Dempsey because of Wills even though it was not his choice) did they defend against the best and did they rematch tough fights.Also I try and take into consideration the different era, training methods and rd distance of the time and various era's JJWalcott to me was a perfect example of a fighter who did not have a perfect start. Had to raise a family of 7, work and fight. Did not have the best nutrition or connections early on like Foreman,Ali,Louis,Marciano,Dempsey,Frazier,Lewis,Holmes,Holyfield, all had strong management and early enough backing and emerged from it all a great fighter....In his case I will make an exception to his record and some early losses...I still think he was a beast and think he would be the spoiler of the Heavyweight group and for this reason I place him high, and by the way he beat Johnny Allen in a rematch.

I laugh when some people make a list and think it more than just an opinion of what syle of fighter beats another. I will be honest I change my list and opinions quite often, my top 3 is Louis, Marciano,Ali and that will stay the same but the rest is hard and will constantly change depending on how I feel about a fighter, the era and the merging of the era's but Walcott is my favorite Style fighter boxer/puncher..good feet...acurate power

[JohnThomas1]

I'd interchange Walcott and Holmes basically. I can understand someone having Holmes at the bottom of the 10 but not outside. I wouldn't have Walcott in the 10 myself, but he'd make 10 - 15. I have Dempsey outside the 10 but many don't of course. Ali i have unhesitatingly at 1 but would accept Louis there. Marciano i have about 5 but he was of course never beaten. Ali outside the 2 tho isn't for me.

Interesting and provoking Bummy :good

Any chance of Page swapping out Quarry?

:D

[Bummy Davis]

I'd interchange Walcott and Holmes basically. I can understand someone having Holmes at the bottom of the 10 but not outside. I wouldn't have Walcott in the 10 myself, but he'd make 10 - 15. I have Dempsey outside the 10 but many don't of course. Ali i have unhesitatingly at 1 but would accept Louis there. Marciano i have about 5 but he was of course never beaten. Ali outside the 2 tho isn't for me.

Interesting and provoking Bummy :good

Any chance of Page swapping out Quarry?

:D

LOL, Ive been hearing how good Lyle and Shavers and Mac Foster were on ESB and how hard they hit and I remember going to the Garden back in the day to go see Jerry get killed by 24-0 24KO's 6"3 + Mac Foster but Quarry prevailed to my shock, then Undefeated Prison Beast Lyle and Jerry owned him and Don Kings Heavyweight (who I saw starch Ellis in one)Shavers the Killer but Jerry went at him and took him out after a nice exchange.....I had a lot of excitement and he his 1st fight against Frazier was nothing to be embarissed by, the Ali fights the 1st was stopped by a cut Quick and he was outclassed in the 2nd fight with both men but look at who they were. I think is subjective and fun...as I stated my opinions will change and it is all subjective but for today,Louis, Marciano,Walcott and Quarry are smiling where ever they are and are saying "Bummy Davis, Right On":good

By the way I did it so fast I left out Gene Tunney and not a mention

[PetethePrince]

. Properly trained and motivated, even a badly faded Joe Louis clobbered Walcott.

Now we know who watched those fights. :lol:

Finally, what on earth is Rocky Marciano doing way up there? This guy was reportedly out-hustled by Tex Lowry and Roland LaStarza. He struggled against Jersey Joe Walcott for 12 rounds before finding the punch to end Walcott's one successful title defense reign.You have Holmes at #2 but having Rocky there is troubling to you? Out-hustled? :lol: Nice choice of words. Didn't lose to Lowry (While it's reported by his friend Nicky Sylvester that he was ill with the flue) but gave a bad performance and the LaStarza fight was close. That's Rocky's only SD win. Not even a loss and against a good fighter early in his career.

I guess that means Liston can't be a Top 3-10 HW having lost to Marshall early on. How about Frazier for having trouble with Bonavena? Foreman having issues with Peralta? Ali barely escaping a decision with Doug Jones (Controversial decision)?

You make me laugh sir.

[groove]

tunney is on my list - top 15. he was smarter than most ATG's and very hard to beat - only 1 loss on points to Harry Greb (fought 5x) with 80 wins. he adapted his strategy for different fighting styles. very smart fighter, didn't fight a peak dempsey but had great footwork :)

[ChrisPontius]

I hate to say it but my rating change from 4 to 20 very often...I know Holmes is low but if I think Johnson and Jeffires are close so I package them. Lately I have been focusing on the old group again and do I put Holmes before that group. Charles is close to Walcott but I just think Joe had a better in and out counter/punching style and had power and craftyness as well, I see him upsetting some of the top guys (as he almost did vs Marciano and Louis) I think he could beat the boxers and the punchers...Joe was erratic but I love his style and think he could be put into any era and cause havok.. I never rated Wills but because I have Dempsey and Langford high I give him the respect...Joe Louis is unmovable to me and I have a personal favorite in Marciano (love his style heart,conditioning,power) and think he is underated..Marciano career was a snapshot of perfection but he only had 6 defences and got out with 3-4 fights left close to prime) I know it would meet with criticisim but WE all have our own personal favorites...Ali was great and he could be number 2 but I feel he gets overated by some and top 3 is top 3. I was watching Quarry fights and was at the Garden for his fights against Foster, Shavers,Lyle and saw him at the collisium vs Joe Alexander...I hear some much worship over Lyle,Shavers,Foster and Quarry dominated them so I gave him some props...Is he top 20...hard to judge but he made my list this time....I have always had trouble with making the list beyond 10 and leaving some out but I think a solution would be to double up some...head to head is hard to do when you are blending era's. In the heavyweight division alone...Training weights and steriods have changed a lot in that division so I try and merge ( example if Lenno Lewis was fighting in the 40's and if he had to train for 15 rds under the conditioning of the time how would he look and if Jim Jeffires was fighting 12 rds instead of 20 would he be training more for a fast start at a furious pace like Louis, Marciano and Ali's era era in the 40.s 50's and 60's.....This is very hard and it is not written in stone....just fun and a mutable opinion that will not mean much anywhere but for us guys at ESB for a day or so....by the way how have you been Chris...

I've been fine, thanks. What about you?

My list is not written in stone, but it would be something like this:

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Lewis
4. Marciano
5. Holmes
6. Frazier
7. Holyfield
8. Tyson
9. Foreman
10.Liston
11.Johnson
12.Jeffries
13.Dempsey
14.Wills
15.Walcott
16.Charles
17.W. Klitschko (if he retires today, might have to put more thought into it)
18.Patterson
19.Tunney
20.Schmeling

[Bummy Davis]

I've been fine, thanks. What about you?

My list is not written in stone, but it would be something like this:

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Lewis
4. Marciano
5. Holmes
6. Frazier
7. Holyfield
8. Tyson
9. Foreman
10.Liston
11.Johnson
12.Jeffries
13.Dempsey
14.Wills
15.Walcott
16.Charles
17.W. Klitschko (if he retires today, might have to put more thought into it)
18.Patterson
19.Tunney
20.Schmeling

Very Good list......

[Bokaj]

I've been fine, thanks. What about you?

My list is not written in stone, but it would be something like this:

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Lewis
4. Marciano
5. Holmes
6. Frazier
7. Holyfield
8. Tyson
9. Foreman
10.Liston
11.Johnson
12.Jeffries
13.Dempsey
14.Wills
15.Walcott
16.Charles
17.W. Klitschko (if he retires today, might have to put more thought into it)
18.Patterson
19.Tunney
20.Schmeling

Not bad at all. Johnson is way too low, though.

[Beeston Brawler]

I think Tyson is high at #8, but other than that, pretty good.

[ChrisPontius]

Not bad at all. Johnson is way too low, though.

I can accept Johnson being ranked higher, but i choose not to. His title reign is horrific and he avoided all dangerous challengers (Mcvey, Langford, Jeannette, Smith) out there. I know that he beat them before, but they were very young and green at that point. Lennox Lewis beat Riddick Bowe in the amateurs (at which point Bowe had similar or more experience than they did, except for Langford who did not even scale as a middleweight yet), but do you see anyone rank Lewis high because he beat Bowe at this green stage?

Furthermore, while his pre-title work is impressive, it has its bumps (Choynski, Hart), and i'm not sure if Martin, Childs, etc were really THAT good.

[Flea Man]

Marciano at no.2 is ridiculous to be honest. Jersey Joe was damn good but no.4? Come off it.

Clearly you have a personal dislike of Holmes, there is no justification at putting him at no.14.

[Bummy Davis]

Marciano at no.2 is ridiculous to be honest. Jersey Joe was damn good but no.4? Come off it.

Clearly you have a personal dislike of Holmes, there is no justification at putting him at no.14.

Well I could not rate him over Tyson because of Holmes right hand vulnerability , Holmes avoided most of the dangerous fighters of his era and was protected by King and his control over the ABC ORG's...also was caught paying for Tom Prater to rise in rankings of Ring to make Holmes win worthy. I was thinking about rating him over Johnson and Jeffries but decided they avoided less men in there era's.

The only beef I have with Holmes and King is I thought Holmes fought weak challengers for the most part Spinks just KO'd by Coetzee in 1 rd,and had a 10-2-2 record, Marvis Frazier 10 fights,Ocasio 13 fights,Bey 18-1, Smith 18-1. Lorenzo zannon and Alfredo Evangelista,Lerory Jones)( I knew Jones well) PLEASE, the best being Cooney and Shavers and I dont rate them so high. Holmes avoided Coetzee,Tate,Dokes,Page,Thomas, and would not rematch Norton,Weaver,Williams and Witherspoon...he was no Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano when it came to rematches or fighting his # 1...and Holmes never unified...Holmes was my favorite fighter of the era but I can not reward him for not fighting the Best and I lived the era fustrated...He did recover after being dropped by Shaver and Snipes but who the Fk did Snipes ever finish off or beat (remember He got dropped 2 times by Coetzee and stole the decision off of Coetzee with Kings help) to get the fight vs Holmes and Shavers could punch but who did he KO or beat except Norton who could not fight a pressure fighter who backed him up.

I could have rated Holmes before Johnson,Jeffires and Langford and Dempsey and they had fighter that they avoided( mostly because there was no monitary benifit) but I have to tell you NONE of them avoided more fighters than Holmes and NO era was more corrupt...shame because I thought he could beat most of the opponents he avoided but I personally was not completely sure and have trouble forgetting

As far as Marciano at number 2...I could have rated him under Ali and it would be no big deal but I think Marciano when he entered the ring from his 1st fight till his last would be a tough fight for anyone. I also rate his defense opponents high, they were all good boxers and Walcott,Moore and Charles all had power as well and Ko'd some good sized Heavys. Its easy to knock fighters after the fact but they were all rated high and beat the best to fight the best. I just think Marciano would have been a tough fight for Ali, he fit the mold, Marciano was relentless, had a great left hook as well as a killer right and he had heart and Stamina. I think he had the right syle to beat Ali. In fact Ali said Marciano would have been his toughest foe and Frazier( who did accually fight Ali) said that he nor Ali could beat Louis or Marciano...I love Louis to me the greatest and I love Marciano...also think Walcott was the sleeper of the bunch and although erractic had the style to upset the most ATG's

[Bill Butcher]

Muhammad Ali should be no1